>> I used a TTY ASR-33 as a printer for my PET years ago. My memory is
>> that if I left the receiver open circuit, i yammered away printing
>> nulls; if I shorted out the loop it didn't. I interfaced it using one
>> transistor - no power supply was necessary.
>>
>> +----------------------
>> |
>> OUT b |/c
>> -------/\/\/\/---------| NPN TTY
>> |\e
>> PET |
>> -------------------------+----------------------
>> GND
>
>
> For I've got a Kludge
> And a good Kludge too ;-)
>
> Seriously, that works. I've done it myself a few times. But it's not the
> official way to drive a teletype - the external device should source the
> loop current. And I prefer to teach people the right way and let them
> find out the kludges for themselves.
Oh, yes. Absolutely. But I was disagreeing with your assertion that
while 5V might do for the transmit loop, you'd "need" 12V for the
receive loop.
>> Note: I never interfaced the TTY transmitter - not even for reading
>> paper tape (don't know why not)
IIRC, one of the problems I had was the high resistance of the transmit
loop - many kilohms, I think. It probably was mostly contact resistance
and highly non-linear i.e. apparent resistance would be less at higher
currents), but I wouldn't like to use only 5V. I'd suggest a reasonable
sized decoupling capacitor to get rid of contact noise, too - say, up to
1 microfarad.
> Err, because the ASR33 reader is horrible and mangles tapes? You have a
> Trend, don't you?
This was at least 4 years before I ever _saw_ any other paper tape
stuff. Long before I got the Trend. Or even my little DSI box. (DSI =
Data Specialties Inc. They made a 30cps reader/punch unit that was sold
in the UK by a small company called Teleprinter Equipment Ltd. Never
met either of them anywhere else.)
Philip.
<> It interests me why some one wants a particular machine especially
<> since you do not seem to know much about it.
<
<Well, I can't speak for the person you were replying to, but in my
<case I'm often interested in machines I know little to nothing about
<because I'm interested in learning about them. Although you can
<learn a lot without one, it can help if you have one to explore.
That is a good reason. The fear I have and have encountered is people
lusting for an XZ21 and when they get it find they are totally in over
their head to do programming or hardware troubleshooting often required.
The NS* was a good machine but it was S100 and beyond some general things
was not a pop in a board and play thing like PCs. I get real scared
when some one asks me if a VGA monitor works with a Altair or did it
require a XT style keyboard!
Allison
I will say Amen to that, considering that I just mailed 9 boxes of
MS-DOS 3.3 which were still shrinkwrapped and beign thrown away by
my school. THat has to be $500 right there that could have been used
on pencils. I won't complain about the fate the DOS 3.1 boxes met...
>
>>
>> Personally, I believe the "computer literacy in schools is
everything"
>> movement is a result of inept teachers and a haywire NEA.
>
>Amen!
>
>> students should be introduced to computers (read: word
>> processors/calculators) until the first year of high school after
>> mastering basic reading, comprehension, writing and math skills.
>
>
>The problem with introducing elementary and middle school kids to
>computers so early is that they either a) know more than the lab admin,
or
>b) aren't allowed to use them in any constructive way. I'm only in the
>tenth grade, but I've already seen seven new labs installed in area
schools.
>The school districts almost ALWAYS spend WAY too much on new computers,
>mainly from the worst vendors, only to have to replace them when the
>warranty runs out (with very little usage, BTW). The computers simply
>aren't used until high school, when word processing/database,
programming,
>and other such courses are offered. Anything before is mainly a waste
of
>money.
>
>What about the 'net? I don't understand why people think that the
>internet is such a great "tool" that will help schools. Just do a
search
>for "barbie" on Yahoo. Or, for that matter, try "video" or something
>general. Especially considering that most schools don't use any
>Internet blocking software..
>
>It takes most people a long time to get used to using search engines in
such a
>way to get what they want. Most people in my school don't have any
idea how to
>use the 'net, and could care less. That is the general attitude at
most
>schools that I have been to.
>
>In other words, most of the money spent on computer equipment is a
waste.
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
If you haven't seen the news yet, I found out thanks to http://slashdot.org
, Microsoft is pulling one of their dirtiest stunts ever in their attempt
to destroy Netscape. If anyone doesn't think Microsoft is evil this should
convince them, unless they are niave enough to think Microsoft isn't behind
this!
In what would appear to be a result of their assimilation of Wang last
month, Wang has announced a Lawsuit against Netscape for Patent
infringement. Basically Wang is claiming to have "Save As..."
patented?!?!?! For an explanation see
http://www.mozilla.org/legal/wangsuit.html I also like the Graphic and
comment at http://www.mozilla.org
The problem is, Wang is sueing them for something that almost EVERY piece
of software available does! Netscape needs examples of software that do
the things in the patent prior to March 30th, 1983. See the below
information.
Wang might be able to use this to get a Court injunction to prevent
Netscape from distributing Navigator?!?! A lot of the Free Software
fanatics are seeing this as a direct attack against free software by
Microsoft, since Netscape just released the Navigator source code.
Zane
Here is the portion of the statement that is the most important:
-----------
Wang is asserting that a patent that it holds for a video text system is
infringed by the Netscape browser. Netscape is vigorously defending the
lawsuit. Wang contends the patent discloses the invention of:
Saving web pages retrieved from a server using "Save As" (See Claim
23, 24),
Bookmarks (Claims 20-22),
Saving files with file extensions and then retrieving the pages and
decoding the files based on the file extension (Claim 38).
The patent was filed in 1984. We believe the patent is noninfringed,
unenforceable, and invalid based on, among other things, prior art such as
the
Alto & Star computers from Xerox Parc, Terminal Emulators, connectivity
software prevelant in the the early 80s such as CrossTalk, Unix
symbolic links (ln -s), and various other "video text" systems like
Telidon, Prestel, Mupid used in the late 70s, early 80s.
It's easy to say "of course that's invalid", but what is required are
specific references to prior art. If you know of additional prior art
publications,
software programs, books, or systems in existence --prior to March 30,
1983-- which disclose and/or describe the claimed elements send us a
message. Send responses or questions to mozilla.org. Please include the
following information:
Name of the Publication or System
Date of the Publication or Date System Was Publicly Known
Features it Discloses
Where Can the Publication or System Be Found (ie. university,
reference library, company, contact person)
----------
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
>Qoo, Tim!
>Wadda hell...
If you say so. ;-) Anyway good to see you subscribed.
>>OS/2 !! SYS01475
>>OS/2 !! SYS02027
>>
>>So anyway, it freezes like that. This, BTW, is on a 2.1GB HDD, with no
>>other OS'es currently installed.
>It may be 2.1G that causes the problem - if it is used as single partition.
>I heard that Warp3 isn't too well in handling big partitions. Try breaking
>it into smaller pieces (<1G)
Oh, yeah, that's why I gave specifically 2.1GB. So I'm going to have the
boot manager, 120MB for Warp, 700 for Linux and the rest for Windows
(remember, I need to run some Win32 apps, not by choice.)
>hope that helps,
>-andy
Tim D. Hotze
Kai-
I am interested in purchasing the North Star Horizon. I am not local
and don't have a trade so would be a cash deal.
Do you have any info about the machine such as amount of memory, type of
floppy(ies), last known operating system, hard drive (if any), keyboard,
monitor, and condition (working/nonworking).
Thanks
Randy Staponski
With the recent discussion on the MTPRO price guide, the ZX80 bashing,
and a bit further back the Enrico Tedeschi flame festival, I found it
quite amusing to run across the following entry at eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13957826
For those without a web browser, I'll just say that this is a book on
Sinclair computer history, being auctioned by the author of the MTPRO
price guide (who goes by the handle "ClassicComputing" at eBay). Most
remarkable of all, the book was authored by a gentleman named Enrico
Tedeschi.
--
mor(a)crl.com
http://www.crl.com/~mor/
I'd love to check out the MIT Flea Market. When and where is it?
"J. Maynard Gelinas" <maynard(a)jmg.com> on 05/14/98 01:15:48 PM
Please respond to classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
cc: (bcc: Bill Sheehan/Corporate/SWEC)
Subject: Re: Can we talk about computers at least?
Well Agreed!
Sorry I haven't been active in the list much... between work and
a family illness I've been _busy_! BTW: Anyone planning on attending
the MIT Flea market this Sunday? I doubt prices are going to be
reasonable what with that $100 PDP-11/23 last month.
--jmg
> From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)wco.com>
> Subject: Can we talk about computers at least?
>
> People.
>
> Could we move the discussion about the perceived woeful inadequacies of
> the current state of public education to a more appropriate forum? Like
> say a usenet group? Or a new mailing list? Basically anywhere but here,
> where it really does not belong?
People.
Could we move the discussion about the perceived woeful inadequacies of
the current state of public education to a more appropriate forum? Like
say a usenet group? Or a new mailing list? Basically anywhere but here,
where it really does not belong?
Thanks in advance.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 05/11/98]
This is for those of you in the Chicago area, and anyone else that
might be able to help me. I am just writing to ask if some of you
might be able to direct to some good classic computer sources in the
Chicago, Illinois area. I am leaving for Chicago for the weekend, and
will have some free time to browse thrift shops, etc. Any place that
might have a good stock of old 8-bitters?
Thanks,
CORD COSLOR
--
____________________________________________________________
| Cord G. Coslor : archive(a)navix.net |\
| Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue(a)navix.net | |
| on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | |
| http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | |
|------------------------------------------------------------| |
| PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | |
|------------------------------------------------------------| |
| If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | |
| chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | |
|____________________________________________________________| |
\_____________________________________________________________\|
In a message dated 98-05-14 05:40:03 EDT, you write:
<< Sorry, as it seems that I've become the maker of off-topic content, but now
after I've installed OS/2 (first 6 disks) Warp 3, using FAT (High
Performance File System didn't work), I get:
OS/2 !! SYS01475
OS/2 !! SYS02027 >>
if i remember correctly, that's the os2 version of: non system disk or disk
error. you might have to remove the floppy from a: drive or do a sysinstx
command to sys the hard drive.
david
Qoo, Tim!
At 12:38 14.05.98 +0300, you wrote:
>after I've installed OS/2 (first 6 disks) Warp 3, using FAT (High
>Performance File System didn't work), I get:
Wadda hell...
>OS/2 !! SYS01475
>OS/2 !! SYS02027
>
>So anyway, it freezes like that. This, BTW, is on a 2.1GB HDD, with no
>other OS'es currently installed.
It may be 2.1G that causes the problem - if it is used as single partition.
I heard that Warp3 isn't too well in handling big partitions. Try breaking
it into smaller pieces (<1G)
hope that helps,
-andy
Despite my former comments I'd say computers do have a place in education
as do television.
I went through most of school as an avid non-writer, managed good grades
despite it even in english so long as writing was not required. It was
word processing or actually a simple editor and printer that open the door
to writing, somehow made it less painful. It didn't help my bizzare
grammer or spelling but at least I wrote. The catalyst was writing code
and having to document it. Did computers help, yes. It wasn't pacman
or clicking icons just using the tool for what it can do best. What was
best was simply allowing me to bang down words and then peice them
together in some sensible way.
As to what computer to use, old! why old, no matter what they have
new now it will be old it a few years when they have to apply it. It's
better they understand so that the knowledge can be applied rather than
keystrokes. Students would do better to learn VI and ED than the latest
version of QARK or Word.
Allison
>Seem to remember I had the same problem when I tried to find out info
>about my /// a few years back... back then WAP had no web site, email or
>anything that I could find, which made life difficult for those of us
>stuck in the UK... hopefully things have progressed a little by now!
>
>(If you find a web address could you post it here please?)
http://www.wap.org/
-- Kirk
>I did pick up another Apple peripheral at the same time, which may offer a
>clue. It's a Modem 1200, Model A9M0301. The "clue", assuming it came
>from the same source, is the 8-pin mini-DIN connector. I don't know what
>uses that kind of connection for the serial port.
>
The //gs and Macs do, maybe the later //c or //c+
>Did the Apple 3.5" Drive have a mechanical eject? Fully manual, I mean,
>not just a push-button that tells the motorized ejection mechanism to wake
>up. Very un-Mac-like.
The manual eject was only on the drives designed for the // series.
-- Kirk
>> [wap]...
>>Thanks! We'll jump right over the the web pa....oh, you didn't post one.
>>Ok then we'll just call the phone numbe...oops, you didn't give us that
>>either. Ok, well I guess we'll just have to do it the hard way and write
>>a letter to...hmmm, no physical address.
:*)
Seem to remember I had the same problem when I tried to find out info
about my /// a few years back... back then WAP had no web site, email or
anything that I could find, which made life difficult for those of us
stuck in the UK... hopefully things have progressed a little by now!
(If you find a web address could you post it here please?)
cheers,
Jules
>
Greetings,
Last week, along with a boxload of other stuff, I picked up an external
3.5" floppy drive that apears to be intended for Apple machines.
It's a DS800 from DataSpace Corporation.
It physically plugs into my Apple //c, but I can't get the machine to
recognize it. The drive makes a noise when I power up the computer, but
that's all. Attempts to access S6, D2 or any other slot and drive
combination doesn't get anywhere.
It DOES respond to my Mac 512K, though. I plugged it into that machine
and shoved a Mac-formatted disk in it, and an icon and open window popped
up.
I don't think the drive can be intended for the Mac, though, because it's
got a MECHANICAL eject mechanism. In fact I was able to eject that Mac
disk (write protected, thankfully ;) ) and the Mac didn't notice.
Is there something I need to do to get my //c to recognize the drive? Or
is it intended for use on a //gs? Or did this company make a line of
dangerous Mac peripherals in an attempt to give the platform a bad name
for an overabundance of disk corruptions? ;)
Doug Spence
ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
Sorry, as it seems that I've become the maker of off-topic content, but now
after I've installed OS/2 (first 6 disks) Warp 3, using FAT (High
Performance File System didn't work), I get:
OS/2 !! SYS01475
OS/2 !! SYS02027
So anyway, it freezes like that. This, BTW, is on a 2.1GB HDD, with no
other OS'es currently installed.
Ciao,
Tim D. Hotze
I just spent Saturday morning in an Ali Babas cave of old computers
ranging form a huge 6ft tall by 10 ft wide analogue computer through a
few DEC machines (see below, and old ICT 1301, a Telefunken TR4 a
burroughs 1800, a few French minicomputers and quite a number of
unidentified systems. Included were lots of tape and disk drives, boxes
of documentationa nd software. Just a dream come true!
The collection belongs to ACONIT : "l'Association pour le Conservation
de Informatique et Telematique" I guess that's pretty clear even to non
french speakers. It has been accumulated over since 1985 and is
currently stored in a warehouse in a town called Voiron near Grenoble.
ACONIT has acquired larger and more convenient premisies in Grenoble
itself and will be moving the collection there later this year and we
plan on setting up workshops etc to restore as many of these systems as
possible.
Among the DEC machines I saw was a complete PDP-9. How rare are these?
Anyways, if anyone is in the Grenoble region later on in the year drop
me a line and I can provide a personally conducted guided tour of what
we have.
I'll keep you all informed of what we are doing as thngs develop.
Regards,
Hans B Pufal
At 09:44 AM 5/13/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
> Personally, I believe the "computer literacy in schools is everything"
> movement is a result of inept teachers and a haywire NEA. Here in the
> Washington, D.C. area I have read reports of teachers pushing
> 'invented' spelling as a method to avoid hurting the challenged
> student's self esteem. Educators seem to think the student will
Ummm... I don't doubt someone came up with this, but I doubt that it is
widespread; If one teacher does it, the media pick it up and report it as
if everyone was doing it, and of course the public loves to think that all
teachers are idiots just goofing off until they can retire.
I think it's jealousy over this (imaginary) summer vacation.
Most teachers are extremely hard working, committed educators who put a lot
of their own time and money into their classes. My girlfriend (admittedly,
one of the most insane) arrives at school before 7am (everyday) and rarely
leaves before 5pm. She spends her evenings and weekends doing schoolwork.
She spends her summers planning the next year and building various
curriculum. And she works with the other teachers all the time, so she's
not alone.
The problem is partially a lack of funding for schools and very a lack of
adequate parenting. Rachel sent home some work for the kids to do with
their parents one time; she got one back where the father had written (on
both sides, in big, red letters) that his kid can't do such advanced work
(they'd been doing it in class all week) and that "I AM NOT A TEACHER".
With a father like that, it's a wonder that the kid knows how to go to the
bathroom.
There are other kids: one whose parents come to school at lunch time to
take him to the bathroom and feed him his lunch (first grade, no kidding),
and a kid who is almost completely blind, yet even after the social worker
took him to the eye doctor (with her own money) still doesn't have glasses.
Kids whose parents beat them, who are being raised by grandparents because
their parents don't want them, kids who see people shot in real life, as
well as on TV. And there are kids who are taught to hate because of skin
color or religion, or whatever. Kids that are taught that the proper
response to a disagreement is hit. Kids that are ignored at home, left on
their own with a babysitter or nanny, or worse, to wander the neighborhood.
Kids that are allowed, even encouraged, if it will shut them up, to watch
stuff on telly that even *I* won't watch.
Sure, there are bad teachers out there, just as there are bad mechanics,
programmers, doctors, etc. But most of them work harder than probably
anybody on this list, and probably for a lot less money.
But parents don't even take responsibility for checking out the teachers.
There are also different styles of teaching; you wouldn't drop your volvo
off at a Land Rover mechanic, would you? But most parents don't bother to
see (or ask) if a teacher's style is the best for their kids.
Most parents pay more attention to whether or not their kids have brushed
their teeth than whether or not they've done their homework.
Don't put the blame on the teachers without putting it on the parents as well.
> in software will correct them. What a cop out. I don't believe
> students should be introduced to computers (read: word
> processors/calculators) until the first year of high school after
> mastering basic reading, comprehension, writing and math skills.
Computers are a very valuable tool for teaching those very skills. To deny
kids access to them is to slow them down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
>At 07:06 PM 5/13/98 +0300, you wrote:
>>to learn anything in perticular, except for stuff pertaining to... anyway,
I
>>think that here's a good time to give students a choice to know what
they're
>>going to do. I, for instance, want to specilize in Computers. Spending
>>time learning "Pre-Algebra" (Just spent 2 class periods making a
protractor
>>accurate to 90' from a piece of paper.) isn't helpful, at least not that
>
>Okay, so maybe you're a wiz in math/science, but you've got two
>misspellings in there (pArticular and speciAlize) so perhaps you should be
>concentrating on grammar/literature/etc? 8^)
I'm not a wiz in math/science at all. That's the point. I'm not learning
anything, and neither are the 14 or so people that I really know in the
class. In a class where 2/3 isn't learning jack SHOULD tell the teacher
something.
>>>High school, take the first two to the next levels and add skills needed
>>>to find paying work.
>>
>>I say that some students should be given the oppertunity to do this in Jr.
>>High. Not everyone, but some people. After all, by this time, you know
if
>>you're not going to be a chemist, programmer, or anything.
>
>Well, in Jr. High I was all set to be a private dick... er, detective.
>Early high school, I was ready to head for Harvard Law School. Late high
>school, the plan was U-Ill/Urbana-Champaign for under Grad Elect/Elect
>Engineering, then MIT for grad school. During college (SF City College) I
>was going to join the FBI. After dropping out of college, I wanted to be a
>synthesist, or maybe an inventor. Now, I want to be a politician.
>
>So when is it you know what you want to be when you grow up?
Computers. Entrepreneur. I'll start my own company developing software.
I'd start out with simple stuff, such as an e-mail client, and grow.
Another good thing to do (at least now) is to start a web page/Virtual
Community. That's changed a single time since Kindergarten, where I wanted
to be an aeronautical engineer, seeing as how I had zip experience with
computers. My idea's been the same for 5 years now.
Tim D. Hotze
At 11:59 PM 5/12/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Apple and 8bitters of it's ilks that is found in K-12 has it's places
>because these are what excels at teaching kids materials but in high
>school level, we need to convert guys over to real things like
>windows and 486 boxens, unix and like using word processing and
>speadsheets, such yak yak..of most types not including 100% dumb M$
NONONONONONONONO!!!
Word Processing and Spreadsheets, even 'net access can be taught just fine
on 8-bit machines, or DOS-based PC's. The younger kids are the ones who
can profit most from the non-textual interfaces that the newer machines can
offer.
To over-simplify: Older kids can read; they can learn to type commands.
Younger kids can't read; they need pictures (icons).
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
Personally, I believe the "computer literacy in schools is everything"
movement is a result of inept teachers and a haywire NEA. Here in the
Washington, D.C. area I have read reports of teachers pushing
'invented' spelling as a method to avoid hurting the challenged
student's self esteem. Educators seem to think the student will
eventually learn to spell correctly later in life or that spell-checks
in software will correct them. What a cop out. I don't believe
students should be introduced to computers (read: word
processors/calculators) until the first year of high school after
mastering basic reading, comprehension, writing and math skills.
Marty
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 5/12/98 9:47 PM
When was this thing with "computer literacy in schools is everything"
started? I like computers in schools, but I am tired of looking at
proposed plans to replace 5 MORE classrooms with computer labs. Is
this a classic thing? Would you in general say that computers have
affected education (keeping the discussion OnT, of course).
>
>> snoball wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi, I am a teacher here at the local elementary school in Humble,
TX. To be
>> > honest, the computer department here at the school is rather
pathetic, two
>> > Apple //e's and an XT that was donated that I can't get to work.
To be
>> > frank, these kids are going into a world where they are illiterate
in the
>> > basic workings of a computer. I hate to sound desperate, but I
have just
>> > exausted all leads I know to take on the matter. I saw your ad and
thought
>>
>> Don't panic. Here in New Jersey, the kids are all experts at
>> Nintendo (and some of the brighter lights at hacking security),
>> but damned few can actually read the manuals. Remember, the
>> most important component of "computer literacy" is "literacy".
>> If the kids can read, they can learn computers. If they can't,
>> there's not much else worth teaching them except to pee on the
>> side of the dumpster the cops aren't watching. (I may be a bit
>> prejudiced on the side of reading over computers -- I only have
>> fifty-odd computers, I've got [half bought new] several thousand
>> books, mostly the science fiction I've loved since before the
>> "New Math" was introduced to my grade school [after I'd had the
>> benefit of learning the stuff that worked].)
>> --
>> Ward Griffiths
>> They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
>> Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
>> Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________
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From: "Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION
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> Are there any students besides Derek on the list?
>
> I am a fourth year electrical engineering major here at
> Oklahoma State.
>
> --Scott
I'm a terminal student of the college of Hard Knocks....
Graduating when they pry my cold dead fingers from the keyboard.
--
Bill
#include <std.disclaimer.h>
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| whayes(a)wizard.com | Powered by FreeBSD | finger for pgp public key. |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Key fingerprint = 54 AC A0 8E F0 B6 94 6B 93 6B 34 D7 EB 13 78 BC
<Apple and 8bitters of it's ilks that is found in K-12 has it's places
<because these are what excels at teaching kids materials but in high
<school level, we need to convert guys over to real things like
<windows and 486 boxens, unix and like using word processing and
<speadsheets, such yak yak..of most types not including 100% dumb M$
<stuff.
Let me compress that:
Elementary school, how to learn. (language, reading, arithmetic)
Intermeadiate school, how to find answers to questions and communicate
them.
High school, take the first two to the next levels and add skills needed
to find paying work.
Computers are a part of life and M$ stuff is unfortunatly reality we live
with every day. The unfortunate part is I meet kids at the grocer that
play doom, surf the net and can't count change.
Allison
>At 03:28 AM 5/13/98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote (more or less):
>
>Perhaps Someone should make a web site with reports of classic
>system sale prices, in order to balance the tales of $500 PETs
>with $5 PETs. Like anything else, so many other factors must
>be considered: rarity, condition, history, etc.
>
>- John
Actually, David Greelish (of "historically brewed" and the "classic
computing society") is attempting just such an online price guide. His
efforts so far can be seen on:
http://members.aol.com/mtpro/
email: desieh(a)southcom.com.au
desieh(a)bigfoot.com
museum_curator(a)hotmail.com
Apple Lisa Web Page:
http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm
>On Tue, 12 May 1998, The Adept wrote:
>
>> I almost choked on my Leinenkugel's when I saw the current bid on the
>> following:
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13839197
>>
>> I'll save the surprise for you who want to check it out (it's a
>> Commodore Educator 64)
>
>Holy Crap! I should just sell my damn collection at the prices some of
>these goons are paying. I could pay off all my bills AND put in that pool
>I've always wanted, plus put a down payment on the Viper.
>
>Sam Alternate e-mail:
>dastar(a)siconic.com
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-----
>Ever onward.
>
> September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
> See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
> [Last web page update: 05/11/98]
>
yeah well a fool is born every 1 second dont they say?
or was it a fool and thier money soon part.........
man I could get that Cadilliac Ive always wanted if i sold my
collection......
Hi All,
I recently acquired an ASR33 and I'm in need of some assitance in order
to be able to let it work against my Unix box.
At the back of the powersupply there is a terminal strip with a number
of lugs. Question is, which lugs to use, the unit is an UCC-6
(for private wire setups).
Other problem is which voltage to use for the current loop to rs232,
I have a converter, and uses 5 volt maximum, and do not know if that
will work. If not, does someone then have a proper schematic?
Thanks,
Ed
>Well aside from the fact that we're _all_ students whether or not
>we're matriculated somewhere -- Tim Hotze is around here someplace
>and I'm pretty sure he's not officially in college yet.
Far from it, unfortunaetly. BTW, just for other students, or ex-students on
the list: Yesterday I had my science fair project: Linux Vs. Windows. Now,
I had two or three problems: 1) Couldn't seem to "dumb it down" enough to
get the judges to understand.
2) Presentation wasn't really "flashy", more like a scientific paper. 3)
The paper was too "dumbed down" to actually say what I wanted it to say. I
couldn't do what I wanted to so that it would make sense to the judges.
>--
>Ward Griffiths
>They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
>Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
> Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
Tim D. Hotze
I am. In 7th grade. Still think that jr. high school's a COMPLETE waste of
time, especially for geeks (or people like me, who like to consider
themselves geeks, but probably couldn't make it...), at our school. No
UNIX, no programming, not even a 32 bit OS!!! (And that's even counting
Windows!!!!) All I really can do is do what I want in Computers... (but
with the software that they've got available, the most I can do is type a
word doc. instead of write an e-mail... TONS of freedom there...)
Ciao,
Tim D. Hotze
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel A. Seagraves <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: Hello - I'm a new reader / STUDENTS
>[Any students?]
>
>I'm a high school student...
>-------
At 07:06 PM 5/13/98 +0300, you wrote:
>to learn anything in perticular, except for stuff pertaining to... anyway, I
>think that here's a good time to give students a choice to know what they're
>going to do. I, for instance, want to specilize in Computers. Spending
>time learning "Pre-Algebra" (Just spent 2 class periods making a protractor
>accurate to 90' from a piece of paper.) isn't helpful, at least not that
Okay, so maybe you're a wiz in math/science, but you've got two
misspellings in there (pArticular and speciAlize) so perhaps you should be
concentrating on grammar/literature/etc? 8^)
>>High school, take the first two to the next levels and add skills needed
>>to find paying work.
>
>I say that some students should be given the oppertunity to do this in Jr.
>High. Not everyone, but some people. After all, by this time, you know if
>you're not going to be a chemist, programmer, or anything.
Well, in Jr. High I was all set to be a private dick... er, detective.
Early high school, I was ready to head for Harvard Law School. Late high
school, the plan was U-Ill/Urbana-Champaign for under Grad Elect/Elect
Engineering, then MIT for grad school. During college (SF City College) I
was going to join the FBI. After dropping out of college, I wanted to be a
synthesist, or maybe an inventor. Now, I want to be a politician.
So when is it you know what you want to be when you grow up?
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 07:41 AM 5/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Did you ask if he added one too many zeros? Obviously the guy is heavy into
>hallucenogenic drugs...The Commie itself is worth *maybe* $40 and the
mixer is
>worth maybe another $200 if your lucky. I have seen and done some things with
>those obscure little breadboxes though that most people would never think
>possible.
Ummm... I don't dispute the commie value (perhaps a tad high?) but a
24-track (or was it 32?) 8-bus mixer with automation for $200? Tell me
where -- I'll buy it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 06:43 PM 5/12/98 PDT, you wrote:
>When was this thing with "computer literacy in schools is everything"
>started? I like computers in schools, but I am tired of looking at
>proposed plans to replace 5 MORE classrooms with computer labs. Is
>this a classic thing? Would you in general say that computers have
>affected education (keeping the discussion OnT, of course).
Well, I'm shooting from the hip here, but I do have some experience in this
area.
The idea of "computer labs" comes from IMO two things: 1) The idea of
teaching "computers" as a separate subject and 2) the inability for schools
to afford computers for every classroom.
Looking at these in turn, "computers" as a subject in itself *may* have
been a valid concept *at one time* (i.e., with some of the machines we deal
with) but now is no longer an issue. Kids today have very little problem
with the concepts involved in running a program (it's the same as sticking
in a nintendo cartridge) or using a mouse (aka joystick) etc. Certainly,
programming is a separate issue, but not everyone needs to learn C or Java
or even Basic, just as not everyone needs to learn how to rebuild a
transmission or tune a piano.
As for schools not being able to afford computers, well heck, they can't
even afford pencils and paper. I kid you not. Every fall, I get woken up
at 7am to be first in line at Target when the Crayons/folders/pencil
boxes/pencils/scissors/etc. go on sale (every week, it seems -- <groan>) so
that my girlfriend can buy the supplies she wants for her classroom on sale
*with her own money*. So, yes, most schools can't afford computers, in
general, let alone enough for each classroom.
So, what to do? Should they even bother? I think, based on Rachel's
experiences, that the answer is a resounding *YES*, teachers should
scrounge and steal and swindle as many computers as they can for their
schools/classrooms. But not to teach "computers". They should be a tool,
just like any other, to teach reading, math, science, comprehension, etc.
And so I'll go against the grain and say it's more important in the lower
grades (K-3 or so) to have computers available than in the upper grades.
Upper grades, junior and high school especially, can do just as well with
older machines as they can with the newer ones.
PC-Write under DOS is an excellent solution for writing term papers or book
reports, and will teach the concepts of word processing just as well as the
latest version of MSWord. Qbasic, Cobol, and C/C++ for DOS are all just as
good as their GUI counterparts for learning how to write a program; Once
you understand the idea, switching to another language is a piece of cake.
I write all my web pages in PC-Write (and I'm damn proud of some of them)
and often use Arachne (DOS browser) to check them.
Non-readers, however, can make better use of newer technology. Programs
like the Playroom, Millie's Math House, and such really get the kids
interested and having a good time; they don't realize (or care) that
they're actually learning to read or count or what-have-you. This is the
real value of computers in education. Mind you, older computers can be
used here too, (the original version of the Playroom ran fine on a Mac
Plus), but if you've got an old XT and a 486, give the upper grades the XT
and the wee ones the 486.
As to the craze for pushing computer literacy at the expense of general
literacy, I think that older folks (30+) look at technology and how it was
new to them, and how it is becoming so pervasive in our society, and
they're scared. Scared that their kids will be as unprepared as they were.
(What they don't understand, of course, is that that very pervasiveness
will make kids take the technology in stride: My niece could work the VCR
(play, ffwd, rwd, eject) at 1.5years; she's a wiz on the computer) Add to
that the media and the politicians who love to play on the public's fears
and work them into a frenzy to serve their own purposes and the corporate
world who just want to sell more *stuff*...
Computers have affected education, both for good and bad (like most
anything.) They allow teachers to come up with fun worksheets that teach,
quickly and easily; they can help kids that couldn't learn to read finally
do it; they allow kids to work independantly at their own speed, allowing
the teacher to work with the kids that need the most help. But, they also
cause distractions, can be abused as babysitters by lesser teachers, and
can displace funding and space for other, more needed supplies and
equipment.
Overall, the benefits of computers in the schools (as elsewhere, IMO) *FAR*
outweigh the problems.
Now the problem with older computers in the classrooms is not that they're
not useful, it's that they're not adequately supported for the majority of
non-computer-literate teachers. (Teachers know how to teach; they don't
know how to do a low-level format on a CP/M hard drive.) So, all you folks
on this list, who know what you're doing, call up your local schools and
see if they have any [older] computers that they need help putting to use.
> honest, the computer department here at the school is rather
> pathetic, two Apple //e's and an XT that was donated that I
> can't get to work.
Apple //e's are fine for teaching BASIC programming and Word processing,
and I know there are educational programs available for the younger kids,
too. (Right Sam?) That XT should be repairable, and would make a great
text-editing station or could be put to use in math classes running Lotus
1-2-3 or Excel.
But, we've got a teacher who can't put them to use, but they don't have the
skills/knowledge to do so.
So, are there any collectors in/around Humble TX that can help out?
P.S., I have my girlfriend working on a list of all the EduSoftware she has
and what it's good at (and how good it is) to be put on a web page, so that
someone who gets a computer for their classroom can see what software works
and will run. (All her computers are Mac IIci or less (68030 or lower)
(though we've got one IIci with an '040 board in it to go in, as soon as I
get a chance to clean up the hard drive and such.))
>>> prejudiced on the side of reading over computers -- I only have
>>> fifty-odd computers, I've got [half bought new] several thousand
>>> books, mostly the science fiction I've loved since before the
Well, I've only got about a 1000 books, and about 100 computers, but
there's a lot more in the house (my folks had a whole wall of bookshelves
put in when they bought the house). I too would say that if you can't
read/write (communicate)/count, a computer's not going to do you much good
in the long run -- it can't do that for you. (In fact, it will get you to
do more of the above.)
Anyway, sorry for the ultra-long rant...
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
Hi all,
> The relevant documentation is "MSCP Basic Disk Functions Manual",
> AA-L619A-TK, and "Storage System Diagnostics And Utility Protocol",
> AA-L620A-TK, which in turn are parts of the UDA50 Programmer's
> Documentation Kit (QP-905-GZ). My copy is version 1.2, April 1982.
anyone has this documents here, and don't need it anymore ?
thanks,
emanuel
OK, the other chips are:
Hitachi HD74LS32P
367AP
240P
164P
MB74LS00
138
TI J549X SN74LS541N
The card has a weird logo: A large S, progressively narrowing toward
the top.
Could someone tell me about the actual drive?
>They're probably TTL buffers/address decoding logic. Can you post the
>numbers (which probably start 74LS) and we'll try to identify them and
>guess likely functions.
>
>My guess is that this is some kind of custom parallel interface. Put
the
>8255 into Mode 2 and you've got a bidirectional data path on port A and
>control lines on the other 2 ports. That's the most likely setup
>(although it might be something totally different, like using one port
>for input and another for output).
>
>-tony
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I hope that this is marginally on topic - the technology is over 10 years
old and it is about using an old machine even if the OS is brand new.
I have a PS/2 Model 30 and am taking part in testing the ELKS port of Linux
to the XT architecture. On the PS/2 ELKS cannot see any keystrokes, having
booted OK. Does anyone (Tony?) have a techref for this machine and if so
what is the difference between this and a 'normal' XT. I am thinking that
perhaps the keyboard buffer may be at a different place in memory thus DOS,
using the BIOS, can see it but we can't by looking directly at the hardware.
TIA
Pete
Found this on Usenet. Can anyone help out? If so, please respond directly
to the author of the message.
Thanks.
-=-=- <snip> -=-=-
On Wed, 13 May 98 15:22:55 CST, in comp.unix.ultrix you wrote:
>>From: Mike.Hoff(a)CRHA-Health.Ab.Ca (Mike Hoff)
>>Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
>>Subject: Old DECstation
>>Date: Wed, 13 May 98 15:22:55 CST
>>Organization: Unorganized.
>>Lines: 10
>>Distribution: world
>>Message-ID: <This.644(a)Somewhere.COM>
>>NNTP-Posting-Host: veena.cc.uregina.ca
>>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!ais.net!newsfeed.wli.net!news.he.net!news.pagesat.net!decwrl!tribune.usask.ca!news.uregina.ca!(a)somewhere.com
>>
>>
>>Sorry to bother you, but I'm not sure who to talk to (and Digital wasn't
>>much help). I have an old Decstation 2100 dug out of the basement - is
>>this worth anything? Any idea where this equipment could be taken for
>>repairs and OS help? Any information you can give me would be
>>appreciated.
>>
>>Please reply to Mike.Hoff(a)CRHA-Health.Ab.Ca directly as I do not have
>>Usenet access from my office.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, SysOp,
The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272)
kyrrin {at} j<p>s d[o]t n=e=t
"...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe
an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly
define any of them!..."
OK... remember that Arthur J. Carp fellow... well, I got a copy of Warp 3...
3.5" disks. (It's been a while...) Anyway, this is semi-on topic, as
OS/2's a pretty good story, and older versions are classic.
So here's the deal. I can get all the way to Disk 6, then I re-insert
the Install diskette. Then, it asks me to reboot. I reboot, and it's not
there. I also have Windows 95 on this system. So how do I: Get past that
2) Get to see the drive's contents (it's not the same C as FAT 32 sees
it...)
Thanks,
Tim D. Hotze
If you need anything or need any information about Apple /// (SARA)
the best place is Washington Apple Pi. They are a group dedicated to all
apple and mac hardware and software. Mr. Dave Ottalini is the historian
and librarian for the apple ///. To get help from him or any other
person ap WAP, you need to join the club.
I just shipped the VT 100 and VT 220 that I had without keyboards. I
gave them away for the shipping and a few people in the list had told me
that they have extra keyboards for sale/trade/free (I don't remember)
but the newe owner in New Hamster is looking for a keyboard for each one
and if those people that have them could write me back (direct email) I
can relay the message to him.
Thanks guys and gals.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
ICQ UIN #1714857
AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN"
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I have such a beast, it is a Model 1083 (I believe). Unfortunately I
don't have any other information on it. It's rather heavy for such a
slim luggable. Perhaps it is better described as a lugtop? Laptop on
steroids?
Marty
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Visual Computer Inc. Commuter US
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 5/13/98 5:33 PM
Anyone heard of such a beast. It's a rather large "laptop" with a scrunched
lc
d
display. Has two half height 5 1/4 floppies. From the keyboard it looks like
a
pc clone, but it also has a db25 terminal out port on the back.
TIA
George
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From: "George Currie" <g(a)kurico.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Visual Computer Inc. Commuter US
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Greg Troutman <mor(a)crl.com> wrote:
> I spent a little more time on this guy and have finally gotten the tape
> drive to work--sorta. The rubbery roller in the center to the left of
> the head is seriously corroded away (as if some anti-rubber solvent or
> high heat came in contact with it) which makes it not work too well.
The rubbery bits used on these drives seem to be going gooey, at least
out here in the San Francisco Bay Area. It's also happening to
the similar drives used in HP264x terminals. (Gotta get around to
fixing that one on my desk....)
> Now, questions: I have a ROM Drawer filled with six option ROMS like
> Assembler, Input/Output, Mass Storage, etc. First, how do I implement
> the physical link to the I/O devices?
You need an I/O card of the appropriate type to plug into another one
of those slots on back. HP-IB is fairly common and is what you would
use to hook up disk drives.
-Frank McConnell
If the floppy works, the DMA controller works.
If you really want to exercise it, install a Sound Blaster.
Kai
-----Original Message-----
From: jpero(a)mail.cgo.wave.ca [mailto:jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca]
Sent: Monday, May 11, 1998 12:07 PM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: question - how to test DMA on peecees right way?
Assuming I have basic stuff, working parts except for motherboard
under test.
How can I assure that chipset that contains DMA controllers is
working as intended?
software I have is very limited and only tests very basic functions
like checkit, sysinfo etc.
Remember I only have limited RAM (1mb) to play with.
Thanks
Jason D.
email: jpero(a)cgo.wave.ca
Pero, Jason D.
Anyone heard of such a beast. It's a rather large "laptop" with a scrunched lcd
display. Has two half height 5 1/4 floppies. From the keyboard it looks like a
pc clone, but it also has a db25 terminal out port on the back.
TIA
George
Hello,
My my name is Cliff Boyer and I too have a Kaypro 10 problem.
I think mine is in the power supply. I plug it in and turn it on and nothing
happens. No lights, beeps, chirps, drives whirling. Nothing!
I checked fuse on the back panel and it's OK. Is there a fuse on the P/S
board located on the inside of the back panel?
The machine was given to me, but I have no disks or manuals. However it is
in excellent shape. I hope the hard drive is OK.
If I cant get this machine going, I hope to get Anthony Clifton's QX-10 so I
can see what a CP/M computer is like!
Anyone have any thoughts?
Cliff
P.S. Hey Grant, If mine is not fixable, I may have a HD for you!
Anyone interested, please contact Mr. Lin directly.
-=-=- <snip> -=-=-
On Wed, 13 May 1998 13:15:47 -0500, in comp.os.vms you wrote:
>>From: Chihfang Lin <chihfang(a)pop.ruf.rice.edu>
>>Newsgroups: comp.os.vms
>>Subject: VAX 6560 for Sale
>>Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:15:47 -0500
>>Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas
>>Lines: 15
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>>CC: chihfang(a)rice.edu, prscott(a)rice.edu
>>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news.burgoyne.com!news.eecs.umich.edu!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news.mv.net!newspump.wustl.edu!rice!not-for-mail
>>
>>Greetings:
>>
>>My department has put a surplus VAX 6560 / w SF200 for sale on Rice's
>>Greetsheet. The individual bid period is from May 18 to noon of May 22.
>>If you are interested, please check "http://dacnet.rice.edu/~gs/" or
>>call me for details.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Chihfang Lin
>>Sr. Systems Administrator
>>Administrative Systems, Rice University
>>(713) 285-5967 chihfang(a)rice.edu
>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, SysOp,
The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272)
kyrrin {at} j<p>s d[o]t n=e=t
"...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe
an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly
define any of them!..."
>Hmmmm....7th grade. I got my Atari 800xl in seventh grade. Not a single
I built my own computer in 7th grade. Of corse, that was a PC...
>computer in my school, and that was even in a rather large city
>(Pasadena). We found a lot of other things to occupy us, though, like
>finding creative ways to get over (and under) the 8 foot chain-link fence
>around the school and over to taco bell or the Pac Man arcade. I spent all
Early 80's? My art teacher says that lots of high school students were
depressed....
>of my "home" time drinking Tang, programming my Ataris, and listening to
>Black Sabbath. Funny thing is I got all A's and B's in my classes, with an
Same here.
>attendance ratio of about 2/3 and a homework ratio of about 1/4. Does that
I wish I could do that!!!! I spend around 1/3-1/6 of my time working, the
rest talking. I wish that I could do that little homework!!! Honestly,
homework's the worst thing. If it were just "go to school, come home live
your life" it would be so cool!!!
>say anything about the quality of California's public education? I can
>only imagine that it's even better now....
Yep. Now, the thing is that with my science fair project, none of the
judges understood what I was talking about (Linux Vs. Windows), so a rather
stupid project (bacteria growing in hot water) won. Anyone else have
problems like this in Science Fair(s)??? It was way to technical, even
though it was scaled down A LOT. I couldn't say what I wanted to say so
that these people could still understand it...
>Aaron
Tim D. Hotze
I spent a little more time on this guy and have finally gotten the tape
drive to work--sorta. The rubbery roller in the center to the left of
the head is seriously corroded away (as if some anti-rubber solvent or
high heat came in contact with it) which makes it not work too well.
Cleaning it up as best I could, and then doing multiple retries, getting
frequent READ or SEARCH errors, have allowed me to store and retrieve
some simple programs. I guess I'll be opening this up and trying to
replace that.
Now, questions: I have a ROM Drawer filled with six option ROMS like
Assembler, Input/Output, Mass Storage, etc. First, how do I implement
the physical link to the I/O devices? There are zero physical port
connections on this box...(?) Second, how do I access the ROM code from
the BASIC prompt? I'm sure there's a lot of tricky stuff involved,
making the manuals indispensible, but since I don't have them, any quick
tips would be appreciated.
--
mor(a)crl.com
http://www.crl.com/~mor/
>Elementary school, how to learn. (language, reading, arithmetic)
Yes, but computers are an important part of that. They need to know how to
use them at an early age; even if it's not in school.
>Intermeadiate school, how to find answers to questions and communicate
>them.
I say this goes to Elementary. In Jr. High, where I am now, most people are
either lazy, "special-need" or both. On top of that, they've got SEVERE
hormonal problems... it's important to know that you can't count on anyone
to learn anything in perticular, except for stuff pertaining to... anyway, I
think that here's a good time to give students a choice to know what they're
going to do. I, for instance, want to specilize in Computers. Spending
time learning "Pre-Algebra" (Just spent 2 class periods making a protractor
accurate to 90' from a piece of paper.) isn't helpful, at least not that
much, espcecially when I could cover the entire book in a week or two. (But
my math teacher wants it "BIGGER, BETTER, NICER, NEATER." And I was done in
5 mins. out of 100!!!!)
>High school, take the first two to the next levels and add skills needed
>to find paying work.
I say that some students should be given the oppertunity to do this in Jr.
High. Not everyone, but some people. After all, by this time, you know if
you're not going to be a chemist, programmer, or anything.
>Computers are a part of life and M$ stuff is unfortunatly reality we live
>with every day. The unfortunate part is I meet kids at the grocer that
>play doom, surf the net and can't count change.
Ease of use. It happens. ;-) But seriously, the math program here doesn't
EVER cover basic math, just expects you to learn it. Now, I was fortunate,
and learned how to do that before moving here.
>Allison
-Tim D. Hotze