- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by jwindle＠comteck.com

Hello I was wondering if you could tell me the jumper settings for the mother board. I am having trouble with the ps2 mouse port causing the system to lock up. Thanks Jim Windle

28 years, 1 month

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Uncle Sam wants...

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Better yet, tell them you were born in 2000! They'll never be able to draft you then! By the way, I heard that there was also a computer issue with Dow Jones hitting 10K. Are there any more similar limitations that will soon be reached? >> >>draft agency would have to be Y2K compliant so they can track down and >>punish draft dodgers... > >No need to skip the country... Just tell 'em you were born in *18xx*, not >19xx, so you're too old. "Wish I could help ya with these new fangled >computerthings, young feller, but if you ever need a good musket loader, >you give me a call, y'hear?" > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

2
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DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS!

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 4, 0:52, Tony Duell wrote: [useful stuff] > But not everyone has an EHT meter. It's probably OK to use a 10M resistor > (prefereably a high-voltage one) and a well-insulated screwdriver to > discharge the CRT. Connect one end of the resistor (use clip leads, etc) > to the CRT earth and the other one to the screwdriver blade. Then push > the screwdriver under the edge of the anode cap and hold it in contact > with the metal contact for about 30s. Most resistors are rated for a 500V or 1kV rather than EHT, so there is a small risk that they'll break down or flash over. Better to use two or more in series if you can. It's also worth pointing out that even 1mA at 15kV is a fair wattage -- another reason to use more than one resistor. A large colour CRT might have a 25kV supply. Of course, as Tony points out, usually the CRT will discharge when switched off. But if it doesn't, that's just when you don't want to find out the limitations of ordinary resistors. (I once proved this theory on a Commodore PET). Perhaps this is a good place to mention the "hand in pocket" rule: if you're working on a high-voltage system, and one hand is in your pocket, it can't be touching a good earth (unless you're even odder than I am :-)) so there's a reduced chance of current crossing your body. You used to often see TV engineers with one hand in a pocket and an EHT probe in the other. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

28 years, 1 month

6
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Uncle Sam wants...

by IVIE＠cc.usu.edu

>>From the yk2 Newsletter <http://www.y2knews.com/>: > >"The federal government is in dire need of technical resources to fix the >Year 2000 problem-so dire, in fact, that there is speculation about a >possible draft of Cobol programmers." What, we don't have time to fix the Y2K problem but we _do_ have time to build a whole new bureaucracy to mobilize the nation? Of course, the new draft agency would have to be Y2K compliant so they can track down and punish draft dodgers... I guess it wouldn't do any good to skip off to Canada because _they'd_ probably draft you, too. Roger Ivie ivie(a)cc.usu.edu

28 years, 1 month

5
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Atari hard drives?

by engine＠chac.org

At 15:41 6/3/98 -0400, you wrote: >Everyone on this list predates the PC, except for maybe that Seagraves >punk. And Tim Hotze, Max Eskin.... anybody else? __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine(a)chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California

28 years, 1 month

9
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Bootstraping a PDP-11 of Serial Line, How?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<OK, logically I can send the bootstrap for the RL02 drive over the seria <line since I'm running TELIX on a 486 for a console at the moment. The <problem is the /73 doesn't support RL02's, and I'm getting tired of typin <in all those numbers. Therefore the question is, how should I format th <file that I send to the PDP-11? I've tried formating it two different wa <and all I get is garbage sent to the PDP-11. I'm sending as straight ASC 11/73 does support RL02, I know I have one connected. When the /73 come up if the switches are set tight it will either boot straight away or prompt for a boot. If you send a formatted file it must look exactly like what you type right down to the LFs (without CRs). If you aare typing it in to a file to send likely CRs are being added where you dont want them. Allison

28 years, 1 month

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AMPEX FLOPPY Circa 1965

by Marty＠itgonline.com

A friend of mine collects and restores old reel to reel tape drives. He recently showed me an Ampex 1080 (I'll have to double-check this model number) audio recorder capable of 3 3/4 minutes of recording time. Interestingly, this recorder uses a magnetic oxide covered mylar floppy disk of about 12" diameter which doesn't have a sleeve by the way (this disk puts the flop in floppy- it is extremely limp). Of course this is serial access and analog, but could IBM had been inspired by this unit? The recorder was a flop (pun intended) commercially. The operation and service manual are copyrighted 1965 and 1967. I looked for patent material on the original IBM floppy at their patent server as advertised on the list but didn't come up with anything on the first IBM floppy drive. Any info would be greatly apppreciated. Marty

28 years, 1 month

3
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Nicolet 1080 rescued

by dastar＠wco.com

Well, I finally got around to picking up a Nicolet computer that's been waiting for me at California State University Sacramento for the better part of a year. Along the way a heap of HP stuff was added to the pile, and I ended up having a whole trailer full of rackmount gear, racks, punch card readers, disk packs, paper tape, and more. Since I'm sure not many of you have ever heard of Nicolet Instrument Corporation (Madison, Wisconsin), I'll tell you what I know so far. The NIC-1080 is a 20-bit computer circa 1972. It has an assembler and a BASIC via paper tape programs. I haven't determined how much memory it has yet, although the computer has core in it, and I got a second Extended Memory Unit (a separate box). When it was decommissioned a couple years back it was still fully functional. The computer is integrated into a big console with an o-scope display and a plotter. This machine used to be connected to a magnetic resonance imaging unit weighing several tons that was thankfully hauled away by scrappers last year. It has special circuitry for doing fast fourier transforms. It came with a Diablo 5meg removeable hard drive in a separate rack, along with a Decitek paper tape reader (serial interface). The computer has a serial interface, and a TI Silent 700 came along with it, which was the primary console. I also got a couple big boxes filled to the brim with paper tape software. Nicolet formed a "Nicolet User's Society" whereby user's could submit programs, and so there is plenty of public domain software on punched-tape. I also got a complete set of spare boards for the computer. The spares came out of another Nicolet which was dismantled. The other Nicolet came >from the China Lake Naval testing facility in the Mojave Desert so I'm sure it performed some interesting calculations in its day. Its a pretty fascinating machine. Its about the size of an upright piano and weighs around 300 pounds. If you want to know more about it just ask. If anyone wants to see pictures I can post them to the Vintage Computer Festival web page. I also got a whole pile of cool HP stuff, including a 9830B Calculator with a whole bevy of peripherals, a couple punch card readers, a printer, plotter. Here's a complete list of the haul: Nicolet 1080 Computer NIC 1080E Extended Memory Unit (core memory) Decitek Paper Tape Reader NIC Disc Memory Coupler Diablo Systems Inc. Series 30 Disk Drive (7 disk packs) TI Silent 700 (thermal paper terminal) Complete Nicolet paper tape library (over 100 different paper tapes including debuggers, assemblers, BASIC, misc. programs) Complete set of spare boards for Nicolet HP 9830B Calculator Complete manual set About 20 program cassettes ROM Packs FP-78 Batch BASIC (Infotek Systems) Ext. I/O ROM Eliminator (Infotek Systems) FP-96 Data Communications I (Infotek Systems) 11273B Mass Memory Mass Memory II (Infotek Systems) Infotek Systems FD-30A Mass Memory (8-inch drive for 9830, stacks on top of 9830) HP 9866A Printer (stacks on top of FD-30A) HP 9862A Calculator Plotter HP 9869A Calculator Card Reader HP 2761A Optical Mark Reader HP 9868A I/O Expander PS. I committed the stupidest mistake any computer collector could. I totally forgot about the disk pack loaded into the hard drive. I never checked to make sure the heads were locked. In my defense, I couldn't remove the pack because the unit won't let the drive door be opened without power. Does anyone know about the Diablo Series 30 and what the proper procedure would be for locking the heads? Is the disk pack in their most likely messed up now? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98]

28 years, 1 month

4
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Spotted for sale: Superbrain

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

I might be interested, but it's in the UK. Anyone else? >I am trying to sell a Superbrain and associated software. > >I am trying uk.adverts. computer but wondered if anyone could suggest >anywhere else. > >Vic Lilley >vlilley(a)netcomuk.co.uk -Bill Richman bill_r(a)inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!)

28 years, 1 month

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Atari stuff for sale

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I have the following Atari stuff for sale for the best offer. Atari DOS 3 manual Atari TV switch box Atari game paddles, 2 Atari 800 XL Atari Claim Jumper Game Cartridge in a neat red transparent case Atari book by Wiley Press, Atari BASIC XL edition Email your offers and questions privately. Joe

28 years, 1 month

5
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TI/99A Stuff

by manney＠lrbcg.com

For sale, trade, whatever... manney(a)lrbcg.com TI-99/4A, adapter, RF Modulator 2 Joysticks Cassette Player Speech Synthesis Module (Broken case, rattles when shaken) Dust Cover CARTRIDGES Household Budget Management Hunt the Wumpus The Attack Chisolm Trail Moon Mine TI Invaders Munch Man Parsec Football Blasto Adventure Video Chess Return to Pirate's Isle TAPES Pirate Adventure (Tape) Books -- The Official Scott Adams Adventure Hint Book User's Reference Guide Beginner's Basic Quick Reference Guide Instruction book addenda TI 99/4A User's Guide (Casciato/Horsfall) TI 99/4A Game Programs (Holtz) Untitled instruction book for some sort of flight simulator (Winging It?)

28 years, 1 month

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Stupid lusers...

by peacock＠simconv.com

Anyway, What's a 68010 do? Anyone have pinouts/assembler refrences/etc? Can I make it do something interesting? ------- IIRC it has the same pinout as a regular 68000. The difference is in how it handles page faults from the external MMU. On the original 68000 an instruction could not be restarted if there was a memory error (i.e. it referenced a non-existent real address). The 68010 could restart, which meant it could use true virtual memory, providing there was an MMU to help things along (I think it was the 68450 MMU, then the 68550 PMMU ?). I think there was a slight difference in the instruction set too. The atomic instructions for semaphores were flagged somehow so the OS would know to generate an error instead of an instruction restart (look up p/v semaphores if you are curious as to why atomic instructions cannot be restarted). Jack Peacock

28 years, 1 month

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"Computer Hobbyist" + Homebrew computers

by jon＠techniche.com

After a fair amount of effort on my part, I found and obtained a copy of the July 1974, Radio-Electronics mag that has the cover story "Build the Mark-8, your personal minicomputer". I was less than delighted to find that in this instance, R-E left out most of the construction details (including any skematics). They have an offer on the second page of the article where you should order the kit with circuit board patterns, and the rest of the details. The article includes some theory of ops, a parts list and a few photos. Although I'd love to see all these old mags on-line, I guess the copyright issue will prevent that from happening. Jon >On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > >> I'm not trying to kill homebrew but having done it...well I have no >> problem with building a mark 8 useing an 8008 and some modern rams >> as it not an antique and it would save days of work. > >Anybody know where I can find a reprint of the Mark 8 article? A good >web-ized version would do the trick. > >> dddameron(a)earthlink.net... >> >> If you hadn't posted to the list I would not have seen this as earthlink >> is in my killfile due to excessive porn spam. IF anyone needs to email >> me they will ahve to use another ISP. > >earthlink.net is one of the better anti-spam ISPs. They were one of the >first to win a lawsuit against a spammer. For details, see > http://www.earthlink.net/nethelp/spam/ > >What you are seeing are most likely forged headers, an almost universal >practice among spammers. If you can, take a minute to look at the real >headers to track down the offending site. It is often an unsuspecting site >that left their mail server open to be used as a spam relay. I've had >good success in getting sites to close up these relays, get spammers to >lose their accounts with the originating ISP, and even get entire ISPs >shut-down (at least temporarily) by their upstream ISP. Try it -- it's a >fun and rewarding hobby :-) > >-- Doug > >

28 years, 1 month

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"Computer Hobbyist" + Homebrew computers

by ddameron＠earthlink.net

Thanks for the information. At 08:39 AM 6/5/98 -0400, Allison wrote: >If you want to run the software of the era using more modem parts would >not prohibit tht but could be easier to work with. For example one 62256 >32kx8 ram replaces 256 2102s! I assure you after wirewrapping and >debugging 4k of 2102(32 of them plus TTL) the x8 parts suddenly look a >lot better. > Yes, I still have some 1101A rams and wiring them would be even 4X worse! By the way, they have "ETC 4" stamped on them. I have seen this on other IC's. Does anyone know what it means? >I'd suggest finding one of the non first line machines or nearly so like >an IMSAI, Northstar, Compupro, CAlifornia Computers, SWTP, or other >machine that were still from the 70s. > Have been looking for over a year in thrift shops, etc. The only thing I've seen was a Kaypro or Osborne, when I went back to examine it, it was gone. >I'm not trying to kill homebrew but having done it...well I have no >problem with building a mark 8 useing an 8008 and some modern rams >as it not an antique and it would save days of work. > >You could also build with z80 (circa 1976) it is still used and common, >it runs virtually tons of software and there are PC emulators for it as >well. > Yes, a z80 is pretty easy to use. I built a small unit about 1991 with a 6116 ram and a monitor in a 2716 with a 8255 as I/O as a piece of test gear. It has been handy to test LCD displays, ram chips, etc. I was going to use a Mac to Sunol card which had a z80, 2764, 6264, and 74LS244 type ic's as I/O, as well as RS422, but tracing the circuit to find the I/O addresses took too long. >dddameron(a)earthlink.net... > >If you hadn't posted to the list I would not have seen this as earthlink >is in my killfile due to excessive porn spam. IF anyone needs to email >me they will ahve to use another ISP. > Earthlink is my first ISP, is it widely known for this? Are others much better? All the spam I've seen in newsgroups doesn't seem to be earthlink, but most doesn't have a "from" address anyway. The email spam is annoying, haven't noticed any particular place where it comes from. -Dave

28 years, 1 month

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4004/8008 in calculators? Which ones?

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

Recently, someone made the comment that the 4004 and 8008 were used in some old calculators. Can anyone supply brands and/or models that would have used these? My company is having a big junk sale of tables, chairs, and old calculators and typewriters soon, and the state is having an auction this weekend. I already snuck into the store room and opened up one of the oldest calculators, but it had some big 40-pin ceramic chip on it with a number I'd never heard of. I'll probably pick up a couple just because they have some nice nixie tubes in them, if they go cheap enough, but I'd like to score some old CPUs at one of these events if they're there. Any suggestions? -Bill Richman bill_r(a)inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!)

28 years, 1 month

3
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Atari hard drives? The actual Atari Answer :)

by thedm＠sunflower.com

Okay gang. I just can't take it, I gotta help this guy become an atarian. :) Okay, this is what; you need. You need an ATSCI to SCSI converter controller. The most common for the ST series is made by ICD. They can still be had from ICD but they are around 79.00. There is an Atari dealer, yes, dealer, amazing in my area. [KCMO] Their home page is www.systemsfortomorrow.com. They are a great bunch of guys and I got my ICD SCSI controller for them for a 1040 Swap. [I had two]. But he has a few used ones and can get you one if you want. This machine is very worth spending the money to get a HD for. My 1040ste I have upgraded to 4 megs, it has a 14.4 modem and a quantum 105lps scsi HD on. It will currently connect to the internet, and i mean with PPP an PAP authentication, will do IRC, FTP, Popmail and graphically surf all via freeware. Please let me know if I can be of any assistance. Bill Girnius -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 6:26 PM Subject: Re: Atari hard drives? >> >> > MFM and RLL are encoding schemes. They define how to turn a stream of 0's >> > and 1's into the magnetic patterns on the disk. They have nothing to do >> > with how a drive talks to its controller >> >> Of course, I was just using the vernacular... (About like "CMOS setup" - > >I don't normally mind - in fact I often misuse the terms myself. But whem >we're talking about hard disk operation, it helps to be exact. > >CMOS setup is less worrying. After all you are setting up parameters >which are stored in CMOS RAM (part of the real time clock chip). I do >object to people who don't know the difference between the CMOS RAM that >stores the BIOS setup parameters and the BIOS ROM itself. > >> you didn't make any comments about that one though. :-)) But I didn't >> remember that it was called ST506. Sounds like a Seagate part number. >> Was it a PC hard drive, or even earlier? > >The SR506 interface is named after the ST506 drive (5 Mbytes) which was >(AFAIK) the first drive to use this interface. Actually, the right name >should be ST412 (which was a 10 Mbyte drive that was used in the original >IBM XTs, etc), since there are minor differences. But if I called it an >ST412 interface few people would understand me. > >> > You're probably thinking of the servo bursts - the signals that keep the >> > heads on a track. Some drives did use a particular side of one of the >> > platters for these. Other drives 'embedded' them in the sector headers on >> > the data platters. The latter is not common on ST506 interfaced drives, >> > but is common on SCSI/IDE drives >> >> Hmmm, interesting. So low-level formatting doesn't rewrite these? > >Absolutely not. That's one reason why bulk-erasing hard drives can ruin them. >The only way to rewrite the servo data is to open up the disk in a clean >room, afix a position transducer (laser interferometer !) to the head >arm, position the heads accurately where you want them using a special >electonic system linked to the positioner coil and the transducer and >write the servo bursts. I know of nobody who has the equipment to do that. > >> That would imply that the servo bursts are not involved in determining >> sectors at all. I used to use an RLL card with a couple of formerly > >Correct. On embedded servo drives, the number of sectors/track is fixed, >since you want the servo bursts in the headers, and not in the middle of >user data. But on servo surface drives (with the 'wasted' surface), the >servo data is pretty much continuous and doesn't have anything to do with >the sectoring > >> MFM drives, and it made more sectors per track, so I thought the >> wasted platter had something to do with that. > >No, it's similar to the fact that I can take a 5.25" floppy and format it >in my TRS-80 model 1 with 10 sectors (88K) or in my Apple ][ with 16 >sectors (143K). Both machines have 35 tracks, in the same position. > > >> > Are you sure: While almost all clone controllers have a formatter routine >> > at C800:5, >> >> Yep, that's the one. > >Well, unless you move the BIOS to CC00:0000 or somewhere... > >> >> > I couldn't find it in the original IBM XT hard disk BIOS. >> >> Hmmm. Well I think I remember using a full-length IBM controller with a >> 30 meg drive, and only being able to format 10 megs of it because it was >> the XT controller designed for the 10 meg hard drive. But I don't remember >> if I used debug to format it, or something else. This is my mom's machine >> which she never uses, so one of these days I can replace it with something >> more useful and refesh my memory about its contents. I'm going to try >> to restore it to original condition since it is so close already. > >It's not in the BIOS source in my Techref. The first few lines of that >source are : > >0000 55 DB 055H ; Generic BIOS header >0001 AA DB 0AAH >0002 10 DB 16D ; ROM length byte (ARD) >0003 DISK_SETUP PROC FAR >0003 EB 1B JMP SHORT L3 >0005 3530.. DB '5000059 (C)COPYRIGHT IBM 1982' ; Copyright notice > >So on the true-blue IBMs, there's a copyright notice there, not a jump >to the low-level formatter. > >> _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud(a)goodnet.com >> (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud >> __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ >> * quantize the universe * 808 State * virtual reality * mad science * >> > >-tony

28 years, 1 month

5
6
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"Computer Hobbyist" + Homebrew computers

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Am also thinking of building a early/mid 1970's era computer. If made wit <"old stock" parts, how would it fit in with the other "classic" computers <far as the history? The original factory made types (Altair, Mark 8, SWTP <sound too hard to find and too much money for me. Am thinking of using <Vector type cards with the common 2x22 pin edge connector. If more pins a <needed, there is the 56 pin "STD" bus size or the 2x36 pin connectors. Th If you build you own bus you will not have the ability to use other cards >from contemprary machines. Cost to build will rival that of a used IMSAI and likely you will quit before the system can run software of the era. Some processors like the 8008 used in the Mark 8 were a bear to use and are hard to find now. If you want to run the software of the era using more modem parts would not prohibit tht but could be easier to work with. For example one 62256 32kx8 ram replaces 256 2102s! I assure you after wirewrapping and debugging 4k of 2102(32 of them plus TTL) the x8 parts suddenly look a lot better. I'd suggest finding one of the non first line machines or nearly so like an IMSAI, Northstar, Compupro, CAlifornia Computers, SWTP, or other machine that were still from the 70s. I'm not trying to kill homebrew but having done it...well I have no problem with building a mark 8 useing an 8008 and some modern rams as it not an antique and it would save days of work. You could also build with z80 (circa 1976) it is still used and common, it runs virtually tons of software and there are PC emulators for it as well. dddameron(a)earthlink.net... If you hadn't posted to the list I would not have seen this as earthlink is in my killfile due to excessive porn spam. IF anyone needs to email me they will ahve to use another ISP. Allison

28 years, 1 month

2
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4004/8008 in calculators? Which ones?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> state is having an auction this weekend. I already snuck into the <> store room and opened up one of the oldest calculators, but it had <> some big 40-pin ceramic chip on it with a number I'd never heard of. <> I'll probably pick up a couple just because they have some nice nixie <> tubes in them, if they go cheap enough, but I'd like to score some old <> CPUs at one of these events if they're there. Any suggestions? Well if it's a 40 pin it's not a 4004/8008 as they were small 18 pins packages. If you get a number or logo off it it may be identfiable here. Allison

28 years, 1 month

1
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Apple ][ video

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

>BTW, I just picked up a coffee-table book called "Apple Design" which >shows a lot of pretty pictures of Apples and Apple prototypes. The Lisa >appears to be the only machine whose product name matched its project >name. Apple seemed to be into girl's names at the time. The Apple /// >was developed under the project name "Sara." Who was Lisa named after, >anybody know? The Lisa was named after the daughter of Steve Jobs, Lisa Nicole. Officially, Lisa stood for "Logical Integrated Software Architecture." The names of females, usually family of Apple employees, were often used to code name projects at Apple in the late 70's/early 80's. Tom Owad

28 years, 1 month

2
1
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Wang 2200

by jb＠chromatic.com

While searching the web for references to machines that I grew up on, I found a posting of yours: > Having just received the donation of a Wang 2200 mini for the > Windsor Science Centre, (no documentation of course,) am wondering > if anyone can give me any information on it? > We also received a Kim-1, but lots of info on that. > > Thanks > Charlie Fox The first machine I programmed on, in 1978 & 1979, were a pair of Wang 2200 machines; one was a Wang 2200S. Just to be sure, since I'm not informed on any machine Wang made other than the 2200, it was a "desktop" unit with integrated monitor and a rounded cabinet design. I don't know if it will help, but here's what I recall of the machines. The 2200S was more sophisticated of the pair, as it had lower-case character generation ability. Both machines had a 32KB ROM that implemented Wang's dialect of BASIC. Both had 8KB of RAM. Both used digital cassette tape drives. The BASIC was/is pretty sophisticated in that it had a whole host of matrix operations. It was primitive in that, like most BASICs of the day, all variables were either a single letter or a letter and number. The only basic types were float and string; there were no INTs or such. So, I see you posted that about half a year ago. Did you end up finding out more? Would you consider selling the machine? Anyway, good luck.

28 years, 1 month

1
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Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard ))

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<(I doubt anyone wants to go through a routine of converting files <back and forth. I strongly doubt TeX would run on a regular IMSAI <with reasonable speed). Not so. Runs fairly well on similar machines. DRI evern did a version of tex for CP/M. Have the manual and software. Personally I used runoff a lot, it was quite fast. Allison

28 years, 1 month

4
3
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"Computer Hobbyist" + Homebrew computers

by ddameron＠earthlink.net

Hi All, I have found all but issue No.4 of "The Computer Hobbyist", written in 1975. Has anyone found this issue and would be willing to trade copies? Am also thinking of building a early/mid 1970's era computer. If made with "old stock" parts, how would it fit in with the other "classic" computers as far as the history? The original factory made types (Altair, Mark 8, SWTP) sound too hard to find and too much money for me. Am thinking of using Vector type cards with the common 2x22 pin edge connector. If more pins are needed, there is the 56 pin "STD" bus size or the 2x36 pin connectors. The S-100 bus seems to have many more pins than needed. Cards would be the roughly 4.5 x 6.5 inches. Cards used to be sold in this size using the 2102 static ram's, I think 4k. The 2102's are still relatively easily found, as well as standard TTL IC's. In 5 or more years, this may not be true. Sure there are 62256 static ram chips, 27256's, etc, but they came later. -Dave

28 years, 1 month

1
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Wire Recorder

by rax＠warbaby.com

This is not about computers, but it's vintage tech so it's almost on topic... Just picked up a very cool miniature battery operated wire recorder and I need to find out what sort of battery it originally used - or at least to find out what voltage it takes so I can try it out. Also would like to find out more about it - date, original cost, etc. It's a Minifon Special, made by Protona (Hamburg, Ger.). The battery compartment measures 1.25 x 3.5 inches, with a flat, brass spring contact at either end. It's a beautiful little machine, in mint condition, complete with fitted pigskin case. Even the original spool of hair-thin wire is unbroken. Outside dimensions are 4 x 6.5 x 1.25 inches and it's finished in a sort of goldish-cream textured lacquer. There are two din sockets on the front, one with three pins for the mike (included), and another, unmarked, with nine pins. Anybody know anything about this little gem? Surely someone on the list goes back far enough to have seen one of these... R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies.

28 years, 1 month

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Bootstraping a PDP-11 of Serial Line, How?

by healyzh＠ix.netcom.com

OK, logically I can send the bootstrap for the RL02 drive over the serial line since I'm running TELIX on a 486 for a console at the moment. The problem is the /73 doesn't support RL02's, and I'm getting tired of typing in all those numbers. Therefore the question is, how should I format the file that I send to the PDP-11? I've tried formating it two different ways and all I get is garbage sent to the PDP-11. I'm sending as straight ASCII. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |

28 years, 1 month

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SCO Question

by nerdware＠laidbak.com

I was just given a unix publishing/graphics suite. Two questions -- (I realize this may be a little off-topic, so you can reply via e-mail and I apologize) 1) it runs on SCO Unix -- did I read somewhere this will also run on FreeBSD? My unix box will be running FreeBSD, so I hope so. 2) It's on a datacartridge.... I have an old IBM tape drive and an old Mountain Filesafe tape drive -- any idea if this is the right hardware to read the tape? I figured I'd come to the masters with these questions. Thanks. Paul Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware(a)laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware

28 years, 1 month

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Altair 8800 (xpost)

by rhblake＠bbtel.com

You guys and gals that are interested had better jump on this one that I pulled from the Obsolete Computer helpline: >>Simon Shiff <kariba1(a)ptw.com> >>Palmdale, CA USA - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 19:36:25 >> >> Would like to know the value of an Altair 8800 in mint condition. >> Serial No. 1004. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* --------------------------------------------------------------------

28 years, 1 month

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FW: FREE MicroVAX II in Indianapolis!

by kyrrin＠jps.net

Heads up fellow DECers! Found this on Usenet. If any of you are in or near Indy, this is a good chance to get a decent MV-II in your collection. Please contact the fellow directly if you're interested. Attachment follows. -=-=- <snip> -=-=- On Thu, 04 Jun 1998 11:36:35 GMT, in comp.sys.dec you wrote: >>From: sterin(a)gte.net (Tom Sterin) >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,in.forsale,misc.forsale.computers.workstation >>Subject: MicroVAX II - FREE >>Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 11:36:35 GMT >>Organization: gte.net >>Lines: 19 >>Message-ID: <6l603v$btm$1(a)gte1.gte.net> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust211.tnt14.chi5.da.uu.net >>X-Auth: C518D3425A9884C254CD8491 >>X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news.burgoyne.com!news.eecs.umich.edu!nntprelay.mathworks.com!worldfeed.gte.net!news.gte.net!not-for-mail >>Xref: blushng.jps.net comp.sys.dec:1003 in.forsale:193 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:1074 >> >>Free to a good home: >> >> MicroVAX II in a "World Box" deskside enclosure >> 16 MB RAM >> 1G hard disk (+/-) >> 8 serial ports >> TK50 tape drive >> 2 floppy >> VT320 & keyboard >> Letterwriter 100 >> spare parts and documentation >> >>Pick it up in Indianapolis or pay for shipping. Call or email for >>more information. >> >>Tom Sterin >>317-633-4757 >>sterin(a)gte.net -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin {at} j<p>s d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..."

28 years, 1 month

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Web pages

by rhblake＠bbtel.com

To anyone intertested...Tripod has upped the space for personal and small business free sites to 11mb now. Check http://www.tripod.com for further info.-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* --------------------------------------------------------------------

28 years, 1 month

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Lisa (was: Apple ][ video + headers!)

by desieh＠southcom.com.au

email: desieh(a)southcom.com.au desieh(a)bigfoot.com museum_curator(a)hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm a computer is only worth what the next guy is prepared to pay for it.............. -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn(a)ricochet.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, June 05, 1998 1:05 Subject: Re: Lisa (was: Apple ][ video + headers!) >At 01:31 PM 6/3/98 PDT, you wrote: >>do any of you have a Lisa, if so, I'll pay $100 or less. > >Yah right. Me too. Heck, I'll pay $100 or less for an IMSAI, an Altair, a >Sol-20, and an Apple 1 too. Not that anyone will sell it to me. Of >course, I'm not an anonymous nobody popping up from nowhere to quote lotsa >headers from irrelevant messages... > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ >

28 years, 1 month

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Uncle Sam wants...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Confusing, oblique, boring, overated and longwinded. Other than that <> likely I'd be the first draft with a minimum age! ;) <> <> Allison < <Are they gonna' provide "three hot's and a cot"? < < Awwright! Prepare to fall out with manuals and lineprinter < spacing charts!!!!!!!! 8^) < Likely the cot will be shredded printer output and the meals heated by a 1704. Allison

28 years, 1 month

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DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS!

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I often work on systems with power on. With PCs it's no big deal in terms of my safety. The SE, however, is an incredible pain to repeatedly re/disassemble if my fix doesn't work, so I would like to work on it cover off/plugged in. I'm only dealing with the logic board anyway. That's why I originally asked... By the way, how do people work on machines like the PS/2 Model 25, in which one can only get to the MB when it's not plugged into the PSU? >> > But not everyone has an EHT meter. It's probably OK to use a 10M resistor >> > (prefereably a high-voltage one) and a well-insulated screwdriver to >> > discharge the CRT. Connect one end of the resistor (use clip leads, etc) >> > to the CRT earth and the other one to the screwdriver blade. Then push >> > the screwdriver under the edge of the anode cap and hold it in contact >> > with the metal contact for about 30s. >> >> Most resistors are rated for a 500V or 1kV rather than EHT, so there is a > >That's why I said 'preferably a high-voltage one'. Farnell and Maplin >both sell the Philips HV resistors good to about 10kV. A couple of those >in series. > >> small risk that they'll break down or flash over. Better to use two or >> more in series if you can. >> > >I'd not trust my life to it, but most resistors break down and go to a low >resistance when they flash over, not open. > >> It's also worth pointing out that even 1mA at 15kV is a fair wattage -- >> another reason to use more than one resistor. A large colour CRT might > >Yes, but the energy stored in a CRT is not that great. Resistors burn out >because they overheat, and if there's not enough energy to heat them up, >then they'll not fail. > >> have a 25kV supply. Of course, as Tony points out, usually the CRT will >> discharge when switched off. But if it doesn't, that's just when you don't >> want to find out the limitations of ordinary resistors. (I once proved >> this theory on a Commodore PET). > >'Nice' monitors have EHT bleeders anyway, often as part of the EHT >reguation circuit (the feedback loop consists of a potential divider >across the EHT supply). So the EHT should discharge at switch-off. I >check it anyway with the meter, of course. > >As this is classiccmp, I think I should mention that some vector >displays, like the DEC VR12, VR14, VR17, etc have a mains-derived EHT. >There's a sealed (oil-filled?) can containing a transformer and a voltage >doubler - a schematic is printed on the can. These things can supply >considerable current for short periods - easily enough to kill you. >They're nasty. > >> >> Perhaps this is a good place to mention the "hand in pocket" rule: if >> you're working on a high-voltage system, and one hand is in your pocket, it >> can't be touching a good earth (unless you're even odder than I am :-)) so >> there's a reduced chance of current crossing your body. You used to often >> see TV engineers with one hand in a pocket and an EHT probe in the other. > >Nowadays you see computer preservationists with one hand in their pocket. >I do it whenever I work on HV stuff with the power applied. > >The idea is to prevent the current taking a path through your heart. Down >one leg is possibly OK, arm-arm is not. > >I didn't mention it, because the original poster didn't say he was >planning to do work with the power on. If you are, there's one other rule >that I'll state - Always have somebody nearby who knows how to turn off >the power if anything goes wrong. Never work alone. > >As a practical point, it helps if that person is not either of your >parents, wife/husband, or girl/boyfriend. The reason is that they tend to >cut the power on the slightest problem - like a minor flashover to a >screwdriver, which is very annoying! > >> Pete Peter Turnbull > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

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Atari hard drives? The actual Atari Answer :)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Wait, are ST-506 drives the ones with a wide ribbon connector <and a narrow one? If so, they are pretty common here. I have a bunch Yes and so is EDSI! <in my desk drawer. BTW, why is MFM so much more popular than RLL? RLL tended to push the drive and if the bit jitter was high there would be lots of bad blocks. Drives of that time using non servo positioners were doing their best but they were on the way out for their own reasons like being slow and tending toward higer error rates from wear. This combined with arriving late on the scene, and EDSI gaining popularity and other details sorta made it's life short. While RLL did die for drives using seperate controllers it is nearly standard for IDE and SCSI drives (we cant see it). Disk and controller technology were playing catchup with each other through the 80s. Allison

28 years, 1 month

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32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )

by PB14＠leicester.ac.uk

On 4 Jun 98 at 9:07, SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com wrote: > they were all 32bit from the get-go, but i think the memory adressing was > 24bit which means my IIcx can only goto 16meg maximum. there was also some > issue about some applications wouldnt run because of the 24-32 bit > discrepancy, and a program called mode32 was created to circumvent the issue. > i got my copy of mode32 from connectix, who presumably made it. The IIX and IICX and SE/30 ROMs contained the 24bit addressing code. For System 7.0 --> 7.5.5, Connectix released the Mode 32 fix which permits the Macs with "dirty ROMs" to successfully address up to 128M of physical RAM and to use virtual memory as well. For System 6, you were stuck with 8M physical RAM on these machines. Apple did not support virtual memory at that time, but Connectix sold a VM kit. The kit also supported a Mac II fitted with a PMMU. Can anyone clarify the memory situation for A/UX? Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14(a)le.ac.uk

28 years, 1 month

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Uncle Sam wants...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<"The federal government is in dire need of technical resources to fix th <Year 2000 problem-so dire, in fact, that there is speculation about a <possible draft of Cobol programmers." < < <I wonder what bootcamp is like? Confusing, oblique, boring, overated and longwinded. Other than that likely I'd be the first draft with a minimum age! ;) Allison

28 years, 1 month

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Atari hard drives?

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

So then, I'm a C-64 either way. Kinda discomforting. Maybe I have one of those upgrade cards. I hope I'm running GEOS ;) >> A silly suggestion. Computer-astrology. Your way of thinking is >> determined by the computers that were in production at the time of your >> birth. No, I don't believe it either :-) > >More likely, your thinking is determined by the computer which you first >heavily used. > >-- > _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud(a)goodnet.com > (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud > __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ >* VRML * electronics * Gravis Ultrasound * Khoros * emusic * X window * > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

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Atari hard drives? The actual Atari Answer :)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Wait, are ST-506 drives the ones with a wide ribbon connector and a narrow one? If so, they are pretty common here. I have a bunch in my desk drawer. BTW, why is MFM so much more popular than RLL? >> > Okay gang. I just can't take it, I gotta help this guy become an atarian. :) >> > Okay, this is what; you need. You need an ATSCI to SCSI converter >> >> OK, but what to do with the system that takes an ST-506 interface drive? I just > >This is a problem that I've been thinking about rather a lot - not for >Ataris, but for old workstations (PERQ, Xerox, etc) that have an ST506 >controller built in to the I/O board. > >I've been thinking of designing an interface that'll link a SCSI or IDE >drive to an ST506 controller. The problem is I'd have to know quite a bit >about the low-level format of the drive so that I could simulate it on >the interface. And that data is not easy to come by. > >But I am worried that ST506 drives are becoming less common every year, >and there's no easy way to repair them. > >-tony > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

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New site!!

by oboissea＠club-internet.fr

Hi there! Just a word to say that you can go and see my 8-bits devoted site. It's called the 8-bits Rendez-Vous! Actually there's only 50 computers featured but I'm adding a new one nearly every-day. So go there to see if you like and come-back often. There is a lot of infos and pictures and I also present my own collection. Please give me feedback! 8-Bits Rendez-Vous http://perso.club-internet.fr/oboissea/ (best viewed with last versions of IE and Netscape) BOISSEAU Olivier oboissea(a)club-internet.fr

28 years, 1 month

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Uncle Sam wants...

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 08:56 AM 6/4/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Year 2000 problem-so dire, in fact, that there is speculation about a >>possible draft of Cobol programmers." > >draft agency would have to be Y2K compliant so they can track down and >punish draft dodgers... No need to skip the country... Just tell 'em you were born in *18xx*, not 19xx, so you're too old. "Wish I could help ya with these new fangled computerthings, young feller, but if you ever need a good musket loader, you give me a call, y'hear?" --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

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DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS!

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I have wanted to ask this for a while. What is the actual risk of me <blowing myself up if I service a machine with a built-in monitor? <An example is the Mac SE. Is there any risk involved (as long as I <don't short capacitors with my fingers) in taking it apart? What are if your careful and aquaint yourself with where the HV is...and make very sure you don't put your fingers there you should be ok. Also remember that 17,000 volts can jump a good distance and find you fingers. To make a point though... I got blasted fixing a VR201 monochrome monitor yesterday. So you know this monitor is powered off 12v in the pro350. Well, I kept clear of the flyback and crt anode and got nailed by 70-100v down on the logic board. I wasn't watching for the focus cap having anything big voltage wise on it. Many monitors have points other than the CRT where higher than supply voltaged can be found and some can really sting! <the parts I should watch out for? How long do they hold a charge? <Could I discharge them? How long... amazingly long and should be treated as charged until proven otherwise. You can discharge them, make sure the "ground" you use is a real one and simply not the case or some other floating point. Allison

28 years, 1 month

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Final Xerox Star demo

by pjoules＠coleg-powys.ac.uk

From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > >The stories I mentioend didn't refer to the BCM, but to a couple of major >collections in the UK. Where are there any decent public displays in the UK. There doesn't seem to be much at the science museum in London. Regards Pete

28 years, 1 month

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Radius Monitor

by PB14＠leicester.ac.uk

On 3 Jun 98 at 21:42, Frank McConnell wrote: > "Lawrence Walker" <lwalker(a)mail.interlog.com> wrote: > > One of my recent finds was a Radius Full Page monitor. I has a 9pin Dshell > > F video socket. It's like a 14 " set on it's side. Does anyone have any info on > > this beast ? Drivers, what it was used with, etc. > > Mac. I've seen one on what I think was a IIcx (maybe IIci), and > another on on my mother's Mac Plus. The IIc[xi] interface is a NuBus > card. The Plus interface is a daughterboard contrivance that sits > atop the 68000 on the Plus mainboard (and hooks up with springs to a > couple of other signals); it brings the video out through the security > slot on the back of the Plus. Thanks for the description of the Plus contrivance, Frank. ISTR that the Plus Full Page Display (FPD) was beige to match the original Mac colours. That would make the later ones grey to match the later SE/Mac II family colours. Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14(a)le.ac.uk

28 years, 1 month

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Ataridos needed

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

Since i'm lazy and dont have an easy way to do it, I need ataridos 2.5 or 3.0 on a 5.25 disk. i can provide blank floppies and any money and postage that might be needed in order to do so. can anyone help? david

28 years, 1 month

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What does RT-11 call a TS11 controller?

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

I need to make sure I have the right .SYS file, what's RT-11 call TS11 tapes? -------

28 years, 1 month

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Final Xerox Star demo

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<>If you want a description, it's fairly small (in terms of total info), <>with a 2-story walk-through PC (when will they get that not every <>computer in the world uses intel processors?), < <To make room for the two-story walk-through PC, they had to get rid of th <neato walk-through SAGE exhibit, among others. Basically, they went from <a museum a techno-geek could enjoy to something which appeals to the publ <at large. I got to see the computer museum when it was at MRO (DEC Iron way marlboro) where the TX2 and some of the MIT hardware is still (as of late 93). Before the BCM was opened on the wharf all those systems were in MRO and I did get to see that many times as my business inside DEC would often have me over at one of the several buildings there. Some of the display also spilled over to the ajoining building where the cafeteria was (worst food in DEC, the mill was better). The BCM hsed to (pre PC) have a Honeywell, SAGE, PDP-1 and numerous machines of former glory on display. Now they are somewhere parts unknown or the back room. Next time I'm in town I should stop in and ask if I can see the real machines. Allison

28 years, 1 month

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Lisa (was: Apple ][ video + headers!)

by icyblackhand＠hotmail.com

Thanks. I'll keep looking. (By the way, your right, I am new. I'm 12, so give me a break.) Mike

28 years, 1 month

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DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS!

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I have wanted to ask this for a while. What is the actual risk of me blowing myself up if I service a machine with a built-in monitor? An example is the Mac SE. Is there any risk involved (as long as I don't short capacitors with my fingers) in taking it apart? What are the parts I should watch out for? How long do they hold a charge? Could I discharge them? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

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Web pages

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<<< Thanks for the warning, I'll add Tripod to the list of servers I'm < boycotting. I will not knowingly access any site that pops up windows w < advertisments on my screen. I don't mind it when they've got them inlin < with the page itself, I can put up with a couple of banners on the page < but I will not put up with these (*%&^%(* popup windows! I'm so fed up with spam that I'm setting up a killfile, I've resisted that for a while. FIRST on the list is earthlink.net! Allison

28 years, 1 month

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Remembering BYTE acticles

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 06:44 PM 6/2/98 +0100, you wrote: >> It was just two precision resistor networks connected through >> CMOS drivers to the address lines of the C64. One network for >> the lower 8 address lines and one for the upper 8. When the two >> networks were connected to the XY inputs of a oscilloscope, you >> had a 256 by 256 pixel display of where in memory the 6510 >> was executing. > >That wasn't the first time that trick had been published in Byte. Steve >Ciarcia used it in one of his earlier Circuit Cellar articles. But it's a >very useful trick, and deserves to be shown again. There was a guy who was selling videos of (I guess) the same sort of thing for the Mac at the first VCF. Sam can probably get you info. I thought it was neat, but being perpetually broke, didn't go for it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

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Web pages

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

well,be sure to add geocities to that list! unless there is something i really want to look at there, i will not goto those places anymore. In a message dated 98-06-04 10:47:18 EDT, you write: << Thanks for the warning, I'll add Tripod to the list of servers I'm boycotting. I will not knowingly access any site that pops up windows with advertisments on my screen. I don't mind it when they've got them inline with the page itself, I can put up with a couple of banners on the page, but I will not put up with these (*%&^%(* popup windows! I really need to take the time to do up a boycott web page! Zane >>

28 years, 1 month

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Uncle Sam wants...

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 08:16 PM 6/3/98 -0700, you wrote: >>possible draft of Cobol programmers." >especially since I couldn't program my way out of a wet paper bag with >COBOL :^) A friend of mine is taking some classes at the local community college (Where I went, lo those many years ago) and has a perfesser who says that COBOL is dead. Which makes me wonder how I manage to earn 6 figures doing new COBOL development... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

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