- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

WTB: GRiDPad 1912 parts

by higginbo＠netpath.net

Looking for the keyboard adapter, internal 2400 MNP modem w/jacks, the optional stand, just about anything that was available for it. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net -

28 years, 1 month

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IBM service rig?

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 11:13 PM 6/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >I just picked up an IBM type 9075 laptop. The label on the inside (where the >keyboard is) says it's an Aptek Personal Service Communicator II. It's got a The PC Radio. Take a look at <http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/pcradio.htm>; is yours the same? If so, do you have a power supply? I think I've got the info I have on the web page... It was designed for service people to communicate with the home office. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

2
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FW: Fellow wants a VAX, willing to pay...

by kyrrin＠jps.net

Except for MV3100's (he explicitly says no to them), this fellow's willing to pay real money for a cheap VAXen. If you can help, reply to him directly. Thanks. Attachment follows. -=-=- <snip> -=-=- From: Mark Tarka <tarka(a)earth.oscs.montana.edu> Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: WTB small VAX system -- WA State Message-ID: <009C797D.53C8C87D.1(a)earth.oscs.montana.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:25:55 MDT Organization: Info-Vax<==>Comp.Os.Vms Gateway X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List Lines: 9 Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!nntp.ntr.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!nntp2.cerf.net!nntp3.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!info-vax I will be in Western Washington State next week (6/16 to 6/22) on business (American Chemical Society regional meeting in the Tri-Cities). Is there anyone in the Spokane-Walla Walla-Yakima triangle with a small VAX to donate or sell ($200 or less)? No MV3100's, please. Mark -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW.

28 years, 1 month

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IIRC

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

28 years, 1 month

2
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Mini-Monitors?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<><Does anyone know of a *cheap* source of a VGA-compatible display? What <><looking for, especially, is low power usage, followed by compactness an <><portability. Thanks! At 5$ it's interesting to have as a spare assuming the shipping isn't over 20$. <>I'm also interested in same and know someone that might like info. <>There is a truck load of applications for a cheap/compact/lowpower <>VGA display. I should elaborate. I'm looking for a mono (or color) display that is very low power and size is not that important other than I need to be able to see 80charx24line text on it. Graphics are not required. While some CRTs can be under 10watts power my desire is an order of magnitude lower if possible. An LCD would be ideal but alas none are available (low cost) that have more than the basic LCD drivers. The DELL laptop LCD I have is typical of the MONO 640x480 displays and the "video" input is not like a crt in timing or signals. For example the display is really two 640x240 running in parallel with seperate video for each. Hand built logic to do that costs enough in power and design time to make it unappealing or no better than a good mono crt unless I resort to Gals/FPGAs (design effort and cost prohibitive for a one up). Allison

28 years, 1 month

3
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CP/M

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I have started bringing home the expanded Apple II+. It has an external "Executive Peripheral Systems, Inc." keyboard, with program macro modules for Wordstar and Visicalc (great keyboard,if only it clicked), and the regular DuoDisk. I also brought home the DR CP/M card manual. The Apple II and floppies will be brought home next week. I was firstly thinking of putting this into a PC case, since the keyboard is external anyway. But I was reading the CP/M manual (pretty shallow), and it mentions a 16-user capability and password protection. How does this work and how secure is it? Also, would you say that the Z-80 was better than the 8088? It was certainly used much more... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

2
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GRiD/PenExec questions

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

Someone had e-mailed me the pinouts for the AST PenExec (aka GRiD Convertable), but I lost them when my e-mail crashed. Whoever it was, could you be so kind as to resend them? Thanks! Also, the GRiD version was available with a 386 (2260) and 486 (2270). Does anyone know if there were also two AST versions? Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

4
3
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CP/M

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Because if I use a baby AT case, it will take less space than the apple case. I will also be able to stick the floppy drive inside. >Why? > ><keyboard is external anyway. But I was reading the CP/M manual ><(pretty shallow), and it mentions a 16-user capability and password ><protection. > >Well the 16 user thing is not multiuser it's a way of diving up the >directory into 16 distinct areas as CP/M didn't have subdirectories. > >Password protection? There wasn't any as part of CP/M. The CP/M 3+ manual says the syntax is drive:12345678.123;password. Maybe it's a weird DR thing. They tended to add weird stuff... ><say that the Z-80 was better than the 8088? It was certainly used ><much more... > >Better... that's a relative term. It was cheaper to use, more software >available as it was fully upward compatable with the 8080 (and 8085) >that preceeded it and it was there before the 8088. Also as the 8088 >got faster the z80 also got faster and added a MMU. I can still build >a system using z80 for less than the 8088 and the z80 one will be easier >to program. If the program gets larger than fits in the 64k space then >the competition becomes a bit more fair. Still segmented space is pretty >ugly and a paged MMU on z80 is very easy to do. Or better yet a z180 >(64180) which is a z180 with MMU, 2 serial ports and a DMA all on one >chip (and still cheaper and faster than a bare 8088 in 1985). The z180 >also offered something the 8088 line never had which was a compatable >highly integrated version as the 8088 needed several parts around it to >use effectively and the '188 was an odd duck compared to the 8088. So >for the 8088 comparison the z80 was hard to dislodge. It really took the >386(32bits) to make a real impact. > >Z80 space was characterized as developing, it was inexpensive to develop >around, there were lots of similar and competing systems (both >a blessing and curse), tons of cheap to free software, offered sufficient >compute power and friendy to program in assembler. The only other chip >to be as persistant, easy to use and popular was the 6502. > >I might add that both were quite popular in the instrumentation and >control sytems field. > >Tidbit... the z80/z180 is still in production and the cmos z80s182 runs >at a screaming 20mhz internal clock (roughly 2-4mips processing speed) >and can come to a complete stop, using only microwatts of power in that >mode. I have a z180 at 9.8mhz and it's quite fast for text apps and is >usually waiting on the SCSI hard disk system (xybec/st251). > > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

1
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Cyber 2000?

by william＠ans.net

OK, so it seems to be the last CDC machine, after the Cyber 180s. Does anyone have any information on these things? Any still in use? William Donzelli william(a)ans.net

28 years, 1 month

1
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CP/M

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I was firstly thinking of putting this into a PC case, since the Why? <keyboard is external anyway. But I was reading the CP/M manual <(pretty shallow), and it mentions a 16-user capability and password <protection. Well the 16 user thing is not multiuser it's a way of diving up the directory into 16 distinct areas as CP/M didn't have subdirectories. Password protection? There wasn't any as part of CP/M. How does this work and how secure is it? Also, would you <say that the Z-80 was better than the 8088? It was certainly used <much more... Better... that's a relative term. It was cheaper to use, more software available as it was fully upward compatable with the 8080 (and 8085) that preceeded it and it was there before the 8088. Also as the 8088 got faster the z80 also got faster and added a MMU. I can still build a system using z80 for less than the 8088 and the z80 one will be easier to program. If the program gets larger than fits in the 64k space then the competition becomes a bit more fair. Still segmented space is pretty ugly and a paged MMU on z80 is very easy to do. Or better yet a z180 (64180) which is a z180 with MMU, 2 serial ports and a DMA all on one chip (and still cheaper and faster than a bare 8088 in 1985). The z180 also offered something the 8088 line never had which was a compatable highly integrated version as the 8088 needed several parts around it to use effectively and the '188 was an odd duck compared to the 8088. So for the 8088 comparison the z80 was hard to dislodge. It really took the 386(32bits) to make a real impact. Z80 space was characterized as developing, it was inexpensive to develop around, there were lots of similar and competing systems (both a blessing and curse), tons of cheap to free software, offered sufficient compute power and friendy to program in assembler. The only other chip to be as persistant, easy to use and popular was the 6502. I might add that both were quite popular in the instrumentation and control sytems field. Tidbit... the z80/z180 is still in production and the cmos z80s182 runs at a screaming 20mhz internal clock (roughly 2-4mips processing speed) and can come to a complete stop, using only microwatts of power in that mode. I have a z180 at 9.8mhz and it's quite fast for text apps and is usually waiting on the SCSI hard disk system (xybec/st251). Allison

28 years, 1 month

1
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CP/M

by peacock＠simconv.com

> But I was reading the CP/M manual (pretty shallow), and it mentions a 16-user capability and password protection. How does this work and how secure is it? Also, would you say that the Z-80 was better than the 8088? It was certainly used much more... > The "16 user" isn't really a multi-user capability. Unlike MS-DOS, Unix, VMS, etc., CP/M did not have subdirectories. The main directory was it, everything fit there. This was not so convenient, so "user areas" came into being with CP/M v2. The 16 users are actually numbered subdirectories. The "C> USER 5" command would switch you to subdirectory 5, equivalent to a "C> CD \DIR5" in DOS. The idea was if multiple people used the machine, each would have their own area. On V3 the user 0 area was a common directory, I think there were some commands to control this (very rusty on CP/M V3). I don't think CP/M V3 was ever implemented on the Apple card, since V3 was designed to use banked memory over 64K. As for 8088 vs. Z80, I would rate the 8088 as one step above the Z80. It was slower, but had a larger instruction set and a crude MMU built in, out to the 1MB limit so familiar today. The Z80 was a bit faster at the same clock rate, and the 8088 never got to a very high speed, IIRC it got to about 8 or 10Mhz in the Intel version, NEC sold variants out to 12Mhz. The Z80H was an 8Mhz part, it kept up with the 4.77Mhz original IBM quite well, except for the memory limitation. BTW, on S-100 systems the 8086 was far more common than the 8088, since the S-100 could support a real 16-bit bus. Zilog and Hitachi eventually extended the Z80 out to 512K and then 1MB with an MMU too, but it was never as flexible as the segment registers in the 8088. As far as design difficulty, using an 8088 or Z80 was about equal. The 8088 had a minimal mode for small designs, or support chipset for expanded systems. The Z80 took some random logic for the clock signal and needed some type of MMU if you needed more than 64K. Jack Peacock

28 years, 1 month

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I have a AC Adapter for Apple Portable

by webmaster＠pntprinting.com

Someone was looking for a Mac Portable PS? Too late for me. >X-Persona: <webmaster> >Return-Path: <rdeleon(a)newmax.dataflux.com.mx> >Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:33:03 +0000 >From: Rolando de Le?n <rdeleon(a)newmax.dataflux.com.mx> >Reply-To: rdeleon(a)newmax.dataflux.com.mx >Organization: MAC S.A. >To: webmaster(a)pntprinting.com >Subject: I have a AC Adapter for Apple Portable > >I have an AC Adapter *NEW* Apple Brand. have also a base for recharging >the battery outside of the computer. > >I Want $15 US Dlls. for it > >Please let me know. > > >Rolando de Leon >

28 years, 1 month

1
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Pre-Color Computer Terminal??

by archive＠navix.net

Woops... sorry, I didn't include my e-mail address, name, etc., on the header of my first e-mail here. Again, problems with my mail software and just some tempory settings. I'm really not anonomous, just appear to be on my last e-mail. Thanks, CORD COSLOR archive(a)navix.net -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive(a)navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue(a)navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\|

28 years, 1 month

2
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Mini-Monitors?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Which reminds me of a hardware question: I can get lots of nice LCD <displays very cheap. How hard is it to convert one to a VGA display (or <even to convert an old laptop with built-in VGA controller to something <that will accept VGA input)? Reduce the number of variables and we may have a shot... I have one >from a dell laptop. It's rather interesting to drive and it ain't VGA or even mono! Allison

28 years, 1 month

1
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IIRC

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

What IS up with them? I don't get "their" reference to themselves in plural. Was it really a group? >On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Francois wrote: > >> Well, "If I Recall Corectly" that's what it means. > >BTW, whatever happened to lisard/communa? The consistency with which >"they" used pronouns was impressive: IIRC -> iwrc. > >-- Doug > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

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Unix filenames and drum memory (was: Files as files)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<BTW, as a bit of trivia, a friend of mine who worked for the CIA in <Vietnam had the job of actually grinding off all the oxide on retired <disks and drums, so there would be no possibility of recovering data Along the same lines the A6 aircraft in the Vietnam era used a drum based computer for the bomb targetting computer... a 10g turn could really mess up the computer. Allison

28 years, 1 month

1
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Early Mac Clones

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

How does this soft-microcode thing work? Doesn't it imply that there is some kind of "sub-microcode" needed to load and process the soft one? Or was there a completely separate storage subsystem that booted first (which would essentially make it two computers)? Also, where was the microcode stored? Could you upgrade special "microcode cache" to store more complex microcode? Sounds pretty unusual! >and with a somewhat interesting design. > >The PERQ 1 was first sold in 1979 for (I think) $30000. For that you got >a personal computer (!) with about 1MIPS of computing power. You also got >a megabyte of memory, a bitmapped display (768*1024 points, portrait), >a blitter, a 20 bit CPU, a Z-80 based I/O processor, a hard disk, a >pointing device (normally a Sumagraphics bit pad 1), etc. Options >included networking (ethernet came out pretty soon after the first >machine) and a laser printer. > >All 'classic PERQs' (everything apart from the PERQ 3a) have a >soft-microcoded CPU that loads the microcode (and hence the instruction >set) from disk when the machine boots. Writing your own microcode is fun. >The PERQ 1a introduced the 16K CPU board with 4 times the control store >and other improvements (multiply/divide support, indexed addressing of >the _registers_) over the original 4K board. > >The PERQ 2's all had a revised I/O board with an extra serial port, >battery-backed real time clock and ethernet as standard. The multitasking >I/O software was only present on these boards AFAIK. You could add the >same I/O option boards to the PERQ 2's, so in theory you can have a PERQ >2 with 2 ethernet ports. > >Older PERQs were 20 bit. The rare PERQ 2T4 was 24 bit. > >If you're interested in finding out more, look at Bob Davis's PERQ web >page (a web search should find it). There's a number of text files there >which explain a few things. There's also a somewhat dead Usenet group, >alt.sys.perq, which would love some on-topic messages again :-). > >> here on the rebellious side of the Atlantic? (I know _nothing_ of > >They were a USA machine (3 Rivers Computer Corporation). But some bits >of the design were done by ICL in the UK, and they were sold by ICL. >They were also one of the standard machines supplied to UK universities, >which may explain why they're more common over here. > >> these machines beyond your messages, if I saw them advertised the >> references went into brain cells that have been foully murdered). > >> Ward Griffiths > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

2
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FA: Various systems

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Auction services have their place, but I think that we on the list should be given the "right of first refusal". If one of the list members has something to sell, give the others a first crack, with some time limit (like a week), before listing it on eBay or Haggle. Just my $0.02. Rich Cini/WUGNET <nospam_rcini(a)msn.com> (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking Preserver of classic computers ============================================

28 years, 1 month

1
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Unix filenames and drum memory (was: Files as files)

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com> wrote: ] That used to be one of my interview questions for Unix programmers: your ] buggy program just created a filename with {control characters, leading ] dash (-), leading slash (/), '*', etc} in it. How do you delete it? Oh shoot. And I thought I was Unix-competent. I thought the only way to put a slash in a filename was with a low-level filesystem hack. I mean, the OS calls themselves will take "a/b" to mean file "b" in directory "a", right? It isn't up to your program to parse the filename that way. That isn't something you can get get around, even with any ordinary sort of bug. Is it? Of course, given root permission, you could run the appropriate disk utility, open /dev/root as a file, find the directory block, and put anything you like in a filename. But then you would have to do the same thing to access that file or get rid of it, wouldn't you? How could 'rm' get around that? ObCC: I just noticed /dev/drum on a Dec here. Now I *know* there is not a drum on this thing, so this must be a holdover from some earlier implementation of some Unix. True? Were filesystems on drums managed the same as those on disks? I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be, offhand. But I thought drums died out before Unix appeared. Does anyone still have a functional magnetic drum memory? That would be one _awesome_ peripheral. :-) Bill.

28 years, 1 month

2
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Unix filenames and drum memory (was: Files as files)

by franke＠sbs.de

> ObCC: I just noticed /dev/drum on a Dec here. Now I *know* there > is not a drum on this thing, so this must be a holdover from some > earlier implementation of some Unix. True? Were filesystems on > drums managed the same as those on disks? I don't see any reason > why they wouldn't be, offhand. But I thought drums died out before > Unix appeared. Does anyone still have a functional magnetic drum > memory? That would be one _awesome_ peripheral. :-) No, no functional drum, but I own _parts_ of a drum from an SIEMENS 2002 - this wasn't a storage drum like later on, this computer stored the (working) REGISTERS on the drum (Background: the 2002 was the first fully transistorized computer). Thats prior to core memory tek. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 1 month

1
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Heathkit replacement manuals

by dcoward＠pressstart.com

I just received the H-11a manuals that I ordered last week from the Heathkit's manual replacement service and I just wanted to let any one who is looking for old Heathkit manual know how I made out. I'm very happy with the manuals I received! First I ordered just the Assembly and the Operations manuals. One was $35 (I think) and the other was $45. After I hung up I realized that I had not asked about any schematics or illustration booket that usually comes with these manuals. (By the way, I asked about any EC-1 manuals and she said I was the fifth person to ask about those in the last week, no they don't any manuals for the EC-1) I received the Assembly manual and the Illustration Booket xeroxed DOUBLE sided on 11"x17" paper (also folded but not stapled). The Assembly manual did not have the traditional brown jacket, but I could take one off an old color TV assembly manual. I also received one schematic of the chassis power supply, front panel, and backplane on what seen to be about 20"x25" paper. (It does not look like it's been reduced in size). The Operation manual is about 3/4" thick and most likely came originally in a loose leaf binder. It is xeroxed again double sided and on 8 1/2" x 11" paper. (You can see were the 3 holes were punched) In their letter with the manuals they state that the manuals are nonreturnable but they will "attempt to correct any problem with the quality of the copy". I found they friendly, helpful, and fast. Their number is 616-925-5899 The only problem I've seen so far is with thw xray views of the circuit boards, the RED circuit traces on the foil side of the board do not xerox at all. ========================================= Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum =========================================

28 years, 1 month

1
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Files as files

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 11, 23:25, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > And "rm -i *" prompts even with "-f". > > Not on Linux, at least. > > > AFAIK, all rm's have -r. > > I know -r is a fairly recent addition to "cp", but you may be right about > "rm". Anybody have a V1 system they can test on? :-) I wish :-) "-r" certainly was an option to "rm" in 7th Edition, and IIRC (see other thread :-)) "-i" overrides "-f" there too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

28 years, 1 month

2
1
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IBM service rig?

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Here's what IBM says about the 9075:

28 years, 1 month

1
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Unix filenames and drum memory (was: Files as files)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> ObCC: I just noticed /dev/drum on a Dec here. Now I *know* there <> is not a drum on this thing, so this must be a holdover from some <> earlier implementation of some Unix. True? Were filesystems on <> drums managed the same as those on disks? I don't see any reason Drum is serial storage just like disks. What distinguished some drom is that ther stored words using multiple parallel heads making them very fast. On PDP-10 I used in 70/71 had a 128kw swapping drum used to hold the swap file. It's my understanding (and memory) it rotated at 1200 or 1800 rpm and stored 18 bit parallel words. I've also used a PDP-8 that had RS/RF08 disk that was structured like a drum with 12bit parallel access (32kw per platter). It was also quite fast. In all aspects durms and disks are the same thing. <> why they wouldn't be, offhand. But I thought drums died out before <> Unix appeared. Does anyone still have a functional magnetic drum <> memory? That would be one _awesome_ peripheral. :-) It didn't! <No, no functional drum, but I own _parts_ of a drum from <an SIEMENS 2002 - this wasn't a storage drum like later <on, this computer stored the (working) REGISTERS on the <drum (Background: the 2002 was the first fully transistorized <computer). Thats prior to core memory tek. Core predates transistors. The TX1 and TX2 were the mostly transistor machines that also had core. They had some tubes(valves) as the high current pulse drivers for the core drivers. I think Mark1 or Whirlwind (all tube) had core. Another use for drums was bit serial machines where register and main memory were serial in nature and stored on multiple tracks of the drum (or disk). Allison

28 years, 1 month

1
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Unix filenames and drum memory (was: Files as files)

by peacock＠simconv.com

True? Were filesystems on drums managed the same as those on disks? I don't see any reasonwhy they wouldn't be, offhand. But I thought drums died out before Unix appeared. I last used a drum on a Univac 1106 (FASTRAND II), the file system was the same as a disk drive. A drum is just a 2 dimensional disk, track and sector but no head select. Univac had fixed head drums and moving head drums, don't recall the capacity (it wasn't all that big). The drums on the 1106 were retired in 1971 when it was upgraded to a dual processor 1108 with a room full of short stack disk drives (20MB packs). Good thing too, the reliability on the drum wasn't so great, heads would often get out of alignment, you would suddenly have half of your file and half of someone else's. BTW, as a bit of trivia, a friend of mine who worked for the CIA in Vietnam had the job of actually grinding off all the oxide on retired disks and drums, so there would be no possibility of recovering data >from them. Might be one reason they are so scarce now. Jack Peacock

28 years, 1 month

1
0
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Mini-Monitors?

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

Does anyone know of a *cheap* source of a VGA-compatible display? What I'm looking for, especially, is low power usage, followed by compactness and portability. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

3
2
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Pre-Color Computer Terminal??

by a＠aol.com

Greets! I was wondering if anyone might have any information on an old machine produced by Tandy/Radio Shack. It came out _prior_ to the Color Computer, but it looked like a CoCo. However, it was a modified with a phone jack in the back for a TV/monitor and ran off of a 6809E (???). It basically was a videotext terminal of some sort. If anyone might have some information on this little unit, your help in learning more about it, and it's purposes, and maybe some history on it, would be much appreciated. Oh, yeh... an off-topic question? Is this text formatted correctly. I had some problems with my mail software and had it completely messed up trying to fix the original problem. Anyway, let me know if the text is going off the right of your screen or whatever, and if my signature box at the bottom of the page is formatted ok, ok? If it is, great! If something's wrong, feel free to send a private e-mail back to me to let me know ok? Thanks, CORD COSLOR -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive(a)navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue(a)navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\|

28 years, 1 month

1
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online support (was: old laptop BIOS???)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 08:27 AM 6/10/98 +0000, you wrote: >> I've found Toshiba's on-line support for their older machines to be >> excellent; I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that the setup pgm was >> available on their web site. Definitely worth checking out. > >True, I know but that is very flimsy. Toshiba can decide to pull >those files off, never know. Yes, Toshiba could yank the files from their site, but unless they went out of business (not likely) why would they? Doesn't cost them anything (coupla meg of hd space) to keep them there. Probably more expensive (people time) to get rid of them. An incredibly valuable marketing tool for very little (or no) cost. Because of what I found there, I would definitely consider a Toshiba laptop. >else. IBM, Gateway what you have that have long term service I wouldn't touch a Gateway computer to save my life. I've got a Gateway 2000 Colorbook that my sister uses. I sent them an e-mail to simply ask what models hard drive they used (I got some empty sleds, and my hard drives didn't fit) and if they still sell sleds/hard drives for it. Was told they didn't know, didn't care, not interested. Suggested a couple of places that sell used GW2K stuff. I have a long-standing loathing of IBM, though I must admit some of their more recent laptops look pretty nice. (Can't stand the damn erasers, though.) They do seem to be pretty good about offering support and info on older machines. Basically, if a company isn't interested in helping out with their older (sometimes much older) machines, I'm not interested in their new machines, simply because whatever I buy today I'll still be using when it qualifies for this list. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

6
5
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Files as files

by peacock＠simconv.com

> But the VAX-philopsophy was extreme CISC, and that extended to the VAX/VMS filesystem as well: record-based, with a zillion different file attributes, built-in file versioning, etc. It was hierarchial, but mixed with a clunky "volume" concept (something like DOS "C:", but with longer names). I wouldn't call it "clunky". In fact with VMS you can combine drives into a volume set if you want the filesystem spread across multiple drives, or you can treat each drive as an isolated filesystem. As a system admin, I prefer the separate volumes, makes it easier to manage overnight backups. In our VMScluster individual disks are backed up in parallel across several tape drives (as many as four tapes in operation at the same time, depending on day of week), a trivial task in VMS but a bit more elaborate on a Unix system. As for the RMS file attributes and versioning, they are a dream for programmers, compared to PC or Unix systems. We have NT or W95 workstations at every desk, but we still keep a VMScluster running, partly for financial apps, and partly for coding. When you start dealing with larger apps (i.e 3K-5K users per week, 300-500 at any one time in a 24 hour day, all accessing the same files) you start to appreciate what VMS can do. BTW, one nice advantage of filesystem per disk is drive shadowing in VMS. You can mirror two drives during the day, then break the set, remount the mirrored drive as a separate disk, back it up, then reconnect it back to the shadow set. Instant snapshot backup without shutting down applications, all the database files are intact as of the moment you broke the shadow set, no updates during the backup. Jack Peacock

28 years, 1 month

3
2
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IIRC

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

I've seen him/her/them/it post on alt.folklore.computers about several topics recently, IIRC. david In a message dated 98-06-12 00:56:28 EDT, you write: << BTW, whatever happened to lisard/communa? The consistency with which "they" used pronouns was impressive: IIRC -> iwrc. -- Doug >>

28 years, 1 month

1
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Bit slices?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: < <> I suppose a better way of asking that is how is a 'bit sliced' processo <> or ALU differentiated from a 'normal' one? The concept was to take a vertical slice of the core of most cpus and make it so they can be cascaded to the needed width. Some of the common parts were the 3101 (intel 2 bit slice) and the 6701/2901 4 bit slices. Their advantages were speed, they were bipolar and in the 70 to early 80s you could make a z80 equivelent using them that was 10mhz and piplined. Or a custom 20 bit machine. <BTW, I mentioned a while back that I wrote a simulation of a PDP-8 built <from 2901's. I finally found the source code for everything but the <assembler (but I did find a grammar spec). It's not in good enough shap <to "publish", and I don't plan to spend the time to get it there, but if <anybody wants a copy, let me know and I'll send you source. (It's <curses-based, and should run fine on any Unix or DOS box). I'd love to see that... I have a big bunch of 2901s doing nothing. Allison

28 years, 1 month

2
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FW: VAX Manuals available

by kyrrin＠jps.net

Found the following on Usenet. Please contact this guy directly if interested. -=-=- <snip> -=-=- From: "Joe Huber" <jhuber(a)anet-dfw.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Subject: need to get rid of Vax manuals Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:07:50 -0500 Organization: ANET Internet Services Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6ln059$8o0$1(a)news1.anet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dal-vd1-112.anet-dfw.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news1.anet.com!not-for-mail I have a nearly complete set of VAX/VMS 5.5-2 manuals in 3-ring binder format. There are also bound manuals for DecForms (still in the plastic wrapper), DecPrinting services, several other things. I sold my VAX but the buyer did not want the manuals. I hate to throw them out. I'll "sell" them for the cost of shipping. Please respond via email if interested. Thanks! -- Joe Huber jhuber(a)anet-dfw.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW.

28 years, 1 month

1
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FW: FREE IBM System/38 needs rescue!

by kyrrin＠jps.net

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1652 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980611/6999ffc5/at…

28 years, 1 month

1
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IIRC

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Well, "If I Recall Corectly" that's what it means. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 11:29 PM Subject: IIRC >Somehow, I should probably already know what IIRC stands for, but can >someone enlighten me please. I should have asked years ago :). >

28 years, 1 month

2
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Spotted: PDP 11-23 stuff for sale

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

The usual disclaimers apply... >In enclosed 19" rack with metal door. 50" x 26" x 30" > >PDP 11-23+ Comm interface PCB's and 2 RL02 drives. > >Was running prod line when de-installed. > >Equipment is located in the metro Atlanta Ga area. > >Email offers.... > > Dick Perron >http://www.randomc.com/~dperr/pc_hdwe.htm >dperr(a)randomc.com > >"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't.....will happen." -Bill Richman bill_r(a)inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!)

28 years, 1 month

1
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Files as files

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 11, 13:43, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Quickest general method is "rm -i *", though you may sometimes need > > "rm -i .*" instead/as well. It doesn't matter for "rm" since it won't delete directories unless you add "-r" but for some other commands , "xx .?*" may be preferable to "xx .*". > If you had a file named "-f" in your directory, then "rm -i *" would > happily delete all of the files in the directory without prompting you. > > "rm -i ./*" would be better, but would not work for files with control > characters or spaces. It does on SystemV-based systems, and others I've tried. And "rm -i *" prompts even with "-f". > If you wanted to stick with the "-i" approach, then "cd .. ; rm -r -i dir" > would be the best bet (assuming your rm had a -r option to recurse). AFAIK, all rm's have -r. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

28 years, 1 month

2
1
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IBM service rig?

by nerdware＠laidbak.com

Hi guys. I just picked up an IBM type 9075 laptop. The label on the inside (where the keyboard is) says it's an Aptek Personal Service Communicator II. It's got a 9.5" monochrome screen, a built-in thermal printer, what appears to be a modem jack, a screw-on (not BNC) rf-type jack, a socket for a pcmcia-type RAM card, and what appears to be a breakout box connector on the back. No floppy. Is this a field service terminal? If not, just what the heck is it? Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware(a)laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware

28 years, 1 month

1
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Files as files

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

OK, I never got this "object" stuff, it's kinda confusing because it tends to make much ado about nothing (in poor implementations, yes, but I've only seen poor ones, the Newton being very hard to understand in terms of how to use). As for VMS file attribs does anyone know how many there actually were? I counted the attribs Norton DiskEdit lets me change on the Mac (bundle, locked, bozo, init, etc.), and there are at least 30. >> DOS in terms of having an array of blocks and stuff. Except Apple's >> is quite a bit more elegant. Since some people here are fond of >> praising the VAX, how does its file system work (typically)? > >The Newton "soup" is an object store rather than a directory hierarchy, >and you'll probably see that paradigm more often in the future. I think >Microsoft's "Cairo" road-map included turning the filesystem into an >object store. > >"VAX" is a hardware architecture. Lots of people run Unix on VAXen. >But the VAX-philopsophy was extreme CISC, and that extended to the VAX/VMS >filesystem as well: record-based, with a zillion different file >attributes, built-in file versioning, etc. It was hierarchial, but mixed >with a clunky "volume" concept (something like DOS "C:", but with longer >names). > >-- Doug > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

2
1
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WeirdStuff PCjr

by dcoward＠pressstart.com

>Hardly. There were plenty of those made too. I've got at least 5 now, >and I just added one today from the WeirdStuff sealed bid auction (I >couldn't resist, it came with some cool carthridges including Imagic's >Demon Attack [who knew Imagic made carts for the PCjr!?] and an >internal PCjr modem). >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com I'm glad you mentioned that. One of the pallets I got had a PCjr power supply on it. Did yours come with one? [who knew Imagic made carts for the PCjr!?] That's still not as cool as my two cartridge set of Lotus 123 for the PCjr. ========================================= Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum =========================================

28 years, 1 month

1
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Final Xerox Star demo

by yowza＠yowza.com

>Xerox PARC is giving one final demonstration of the original Xerox Star >workstation built in 1981. This may be the last time it gets >demoed, as the hardware has begun failing due to its age. Don't miss >this opportunity to witness one of the most important steps ever taken in the >history of computing and user interface design. > > Final Demo of the Xerox Star Workstation > 5:30 to 7:00pm > Wednesday June 17th > Auditorium Xerox PARC > > > Unquestionably, one of the major design innovations of this century >has been the Graphical User Interface, with its desktop, icons, pop-up >and pull-down menus and ubiquitous windows. The explosion of computer usage >in the last decade has in large part been made possible through this simpler >and more direct method of user interaction. > > Though millions of people around the world are now using GUIs, few >outside of the Human/Computer Interaction field or the Silicon Valley >are aware of the history of the its design prior to the introduction >of the Macintosh in 1984. > > The first GUI ever developed was the work of Dr. Douglas Englebart, >a researcher at SRI (the Stanford Research Institute in Menlo Park, CA) in the >mid-1960s. His visionary and pioneering design and prototypes succeeded in >producing the world's first screen-based windows, cursor-selectable pop-up >menus, as well as the mouse with which to interact with them. > > Though these innovations were truly revolutionary, it was not until >a decade later when researchers at the Xerox Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) >began systematically studying this system in a commericial development effort. >The Xerox Alto personal computer workstation was developed in the late 70's >and included a mouse pointing system. This system influenced later systems >such as Bravo, which was developed at Xerox PARC by Bruce Lampson and included >an integrated editor formatter. Later systems included Markup, Draw, and Star. > > Xerox Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) has been a cradle of Silicon >Valley innovation for 25 years. Its research spans domains from atoms >to anthropology, from its solid-state physics lab, which develops new >laser diodes for use in printers and copiers, to the group that studies >work practices and their possible impact on current and future products. > > Located in the Stanford University Industrial Park in the heart of >Silicon Valley, PARC was charged upon its founding in 1970 to the >"architect of the information age". Since then it has delivered into >use such significant pieces of the current information infrastructure >as laser printers, graphical user interfaces, object-oriented >programming languages, and Ethernet local area networks. PARC has >contributed to user interfaces, electronic components, embedded >software and architectures for each new line of Xerox copiers, >printers, and systems reprographics products. > > > > Directions to Xerox PARC > >>From Highway 101, take the Oregon Expressway exit west 2 miles to >El Camino Real. Oregon Expressway becomes Page Mill Road at El Camino. Follow >Page Mill Road 1.7 miles to Coyote Hill Road (no light) and turn left. Coyote >Hill Road is just past the intersection with >Foothill Expressway. Go one-half mile and PARC will be on your left. >Follow the signs to the auditorium. > >>From Interstate 280, take the Page Mill Road exit. Go east one mile >to Coyote Hill Road (no light) and turn right. Go one-half mile and >PARC will be on your left. Follow the signs to the auditorium.

28 years, 1 month

5
6
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Files as files

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<is quite a bit more elegant. Since some people here are fond of <praising the VAX, how does its file system work (typically)? Vax is hardware. VMS is an OS. Unix also run on vax. VMS is a fairly conventional albeit complex file system that can do sequential, indexed or random accesses. It deals with files, directories and volumes. <>contiguity). This made file access *fast* when you needed it. I still <>find fragmentation a nightmare even on Linux. Some file systems do more poorly than others with fragmentation. For the best fragmentation is a mild performance hit, in that it will take more disk seeks to find all the peices. For others (RT-11, NS*DOS) you can have an almost empty disk that is effectively full as the OS cannot allocate space peicemeal. VMS, DOS and CP/M perform well with fragmented files. Allison

28 years, 1 month

1
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Mac Portable Power Supply

by higginbo＠netpath.net

On the bottom of the Mac Portable I have sitting right here, it says 7.5v 2.0a. The injection molded plastic never lies... or does it? This is a model 5120, non-backlit. Maybe the backlit version took 1.5a? At 05:45 PM 6/11/98 PDT, Max Eskin wrote: >Again, the original was 1.5a, which was not enough to power the >machine w/a dead battery. 2.0a came w/ the first powerbook, and works >fine. >(didn't I find this out on this list over a year ago?) - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net -

28 years, 1 month

1
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Early Mac Clones

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

>Powder Blue Computers >Akkord Technologies each used Mac 128k ROMs >Colby: >WalkMac SE -- $3999 >WalkMac SE 30 -- $6699 > >Dynamic: (around for a few years) >Dynamac Plus $4995 >Dynamac SE 30 - $7954 > >Outbound Anybody have any of these? Any experience with them. I would love some further information. >The bit on Outbound shocked me, it seems they were actually working with >Apple. To quote the 2nd edition: "While Outbound continues to floursh-thanks to a wisely-forged legal agreement and clever positioning of their Macintosh portable versus the Apple PowerBooks-I question their long-term staying power." Tom Owad

28 years, 1 month

4
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Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>Having creative thoughts is not something (IMHO) that can be taught. Some >people just suddenly think 'Wouldn't it be neat if...' or 'We can do it >like this...'. Of course having a good understanding of the subject, and >know what's been done before help a lot here. And that's were classic >computers come in (to bring this back on topic!) I thought this was on topic anyway... >> <faultfinding/repair can be done by almost anybody. Well, having done >> <both, I personally find them equally difficult. Perhaps that means I'm >> <no good at it, but... >> >> Troubleshooting is a very complex process that I've never been able to >> teach to anyone but those that naturally could. For me troubleshooting > >The point is, in the UK at least, designers tend to get much better pay, >and are more highly regarded than repairmen. This I think is wrong, but this >list is not the place for that rant. In general, I've found that things like TVs are almost never repaired, at least in the US. Back in the USSR, we repaired everything, including alarm clocks destroyed by trashy batteries that leaked. >I'm not good at troubleshooting, and I could never (for example) repair >TV sets for money. But I've never yet let a fault beat me. It may take me >weeks to solve it, but I'll spend those weeks to sort out a machine. Do you mean you've never left a problem unsolved or never left a machine broken? >> But working with field circus underscored that thinking is not something >> you can mandate. Isn't there some kind of qualification these guys have to pass? Still, I can imagine a 20-year old pizza-eating moron who takes a job like this just to tell his girlfriend, "Hey! I'm a COMPUTER SERVICE TECHNICIAN!"... > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

8
8
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Mac Portable Power Supply

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Again, the original was 1.5a, which was not enough to power the machine w/a dead battery. 2.0a came w/ the first powerbook, and works fine. (didn't I find this out on this list over a year ago?) > >At 04:25 PM 6/11/98 -0700, Uncle Roger wrote: >>At 12:42 PM 6/11/98 PDT, you wrote: >>>I was wondering if anyone had a Mac Portable power supply, and wanted to >>>sell it cheap. >> >>Just get a (iirc) 7.5v PS with appropriate connector/polarity. > >- >- john higginbotham ____________________________ >- webmaster www.pntprinting.com - >- limbo limbo.netpath.net - > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

1
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Mac Portable Power Supply

by higginbo＠netpath.net

Gotta be 2.0a though, at least that's what it says on the bottom of the unit. At 04:25 PM 6/11/98 -0700, Uncle Roger wrote: >At 12:42 PM 6/11/98 PDT, you wrote: >>I was wondering if anyone had a Mac Portable power supply, and wanted to >>sell it cheap. > >Just get a (iirc) 7.5v PS with appropriate connector/polarity. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net -

28 years, 1 month

1
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New Finds this week

by jrkeys＠concentric.net

>Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:10:55 -0500 >To: clasic >From: "John R. Keys Jr." <jrkeys(a)concentric.net> >Subject: New Finds this week > >Well it's been slow since I got back from vacation but I found a couple good items: >1) Freeze Frame cartridge for the C64, has four dip switches 1&2 work the freeze frame and 3&4 are printer configuration for 4 different printers. Neat never seen or heard of this unit before. cost 10 cent at thrift. >2) Manual set for the LA50 printer all of them for 50 cent. >3) ICmemories manual from 1980 covering HITACHI #HLN100 25 cent >4) Freedom ONE terminal manual 25 cent >5) ACER710 user's guide 1987 25 cent >6) DisplayStation 88kp6 for $35 >7) Socrates program manual 11 cent >8) Commodore model 1541-II/1571-II/1581 power supply free >9) TRS80 Deluxe RS-232 program pak cat. 26-2226 with cable free >10) HP 2382A kb 1.00 >11) Tecmar tape unit for early Mac's only has two 9pin serial ports in back 1.00 not tested yet still had a cartridge in it. >12) and best for last a 'Starlet' Nec Portable computer model PC-8401A-LS that works off of 4 c batteries. No power came with it, cost $10. It has CP/M 2.2 in ROM from DRI 1982; Bios date is ver 1.0 1984; has a built in modem 300/1200; software in rom is WS, CALC, TELCOM, and FILER. This baby powers up very fast and seems work very well. I even put in some PIP commands. >Well that's it for now hope to have busy weekend lots of auction going on. Keep Computing John

28 years, 1 month

1
0
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CP/M software (was: Former Disk Costs)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> It should be different as Knuth's was written in C and tex is asm or pl < ^^^^^^^^^^^^ <Since when? The source code for TeX that I have here, and the version <that's printed in Volume B of 'Computers and Typesetting' is written in <Web Working versions (or pascal). I've never seen a web compiler. <> code. No credit given and. It's a simpler version circa 1978 and the <> putput formats are oriented toward character printers. < <Can it handle the standard TeX tests (even old versions of them)? If not, <it's not TeX, by definition. Likely not, never tried it's stripped some. It was also used to push the idea of device independent page descritpions that were capable of text and graphics. One product that came from that was RETOS (ReGIS to Sixel) translator. I later modified fancyfont as part of runoff to give font capable runoff with bitmap output. It could really give a disk a workout. Allison

28 years, 1 month

4
5
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Final Xerox Star demo

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 01:04 PM 6/11/98 -0700, you wrote: >> >> Final Demo of the Xerox Star Workstation >> >> 5:30 to 7:00pm I'm really hoping to be there, but I still have to figure out how to get >from Walnut Creek at 5pm to Palto Alo at 5:30... >Francisco Bay Area or some subset thereof) get together on the second >Wednesday of each month for dinner, yakking, bragging about our latest >k00l f1nd5, waving our appendages at each other and so forth. Sounds Ooh, I *love* waving my appendages, especially my phelanges! Only, Wednesdays, esp. the second wed are not good... Make it the second Thursday and you've got a deal. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

1
0
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Mac Portable Power Supply

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 12:42 PM 6/11/98 PDT, you wrote: >I was wondering if anyone had a Mac Portable power supply, and wanted to >sell it cheap. Just get a (iirc) 7.5v PS with appropriate connector/polarity. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

1
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