- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 11:36 PM 6/21/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Ok Atari-heads, what the hell is an SLMC804 Laser? It looks like some >sort of SCSI adapter. Its an external device the size of an external >modem. The SLM804 Laser Printer was Tramiel's attempt at a laser-for-the-masses back when a Laser Printer was a multi-thousand-dollar item. It had no on-board intelligence or memory; it used the ST's CPU/RAM. Sounds like what you have there is the controller interface. (Plugs into the ACSI port on one end and the printer on the other.) P.S., anyone want an SLM804 in need of some repair? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

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IMSAI 8080

by peacock＠simconv.com

> Yes, I wonder how many of these 'collectable' computers > are in any sense being preserved properly. I would doubt > if ROMs were ever backed up or PSUs tested. Hmm, IMSAI's didn't have ROMs (or PALs and FPGAs, programmable logic had yet to be invented), unless you added them in yourself. As for checking the power supply, an IMSAI was extremely easy to eyeball...huge transformer, diodes, and beer can size capacitors. One problem I never had with IMSAIs was in the power supply, the design was right out of Electronics 101, nothing beats a big lump of iron for simplicity. Now rust might be a problem... Actually, the only real problem I've ever found with S-100s is the bus connectors wearing out. I have an old Ithaca Intersystems DPS-1 in need of a replacement Morrow motherboard. Well, not really in a hurry to fix it, all the Ithaca boards have been in the IMSAI for the last 10 years, but I hate to throw out the DPS-1 since it had the neat front panel with the PDP style toggle switches. Jack Peacock

28 years, 1 month

3
2
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MicroVAX 2000

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<VMS 5.5-2 installation. I really don't know about the resistor board, <though -- I'm afraid I've never seen one. It's there to load the switcher, a disk will do that too! Allison

28 years, 1 month

1
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MicroVAX 2000

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< A uVAX 2000 uses MFM drives, either a <Microplis 1325/DEC RD53 (70MB) or a Maxtor 2190/DEC RD54 (159MB). In <order to load VMS you really need the RD54, 70MB is too small. The HD You can load v5.4 on to a RD53 if DECwindows is tailored off. You get about 20k blocks that way. A RD54 is better though. I have three of them, nice uVAX two running VMS (rd53), one Netboots off the 3100m76. The third has ultrix V4.2 in rd53(70mb). Allison

28 years, 1 month

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available 8" disks

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Next question? WFERE is 'local'?? I keep forgetting that no matter how often I've posted my location it's never read... Eastern MA about 25 west if boston. Allison

28 years, 1 month

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Apollo again.

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

How nice: Both of the video cards I got are toast. One acts completely dead, the other shows a series of red vertical bars about .25" apart, with crap in between. Apparently, these were decommissioned for a reason... -------

28 years, 1 month

7
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MicroVAX 2000

by peacock＠simconv.com

> This one is a Model 625NT-AA, and comes without harddisk. It appears that there is a resistor board installed to provide a load comparable to the drive on the power supply. According to a rather sketchy spec sheet that I d/l'd from DEC, it can handle a maximum 318mb local disk. Based on the 53C80 chip installed, I presume that the drive should be SCSI. > Not exactly, the SCSI port is only for a tape drive, a TK50Z (an early ancestor to modern DLT drives). A uVAX 2000 uses MFM drives, either a Microplis 1325/DEC RD53 (70MB) or a Maxtor 2190/DEC RD54 (159MB). In order to load VMS you really need the RD54, 70MB is too small. The HD controller is the 40 pin SMC chip on the motherboard. Oddball MFM format, not compatible with WD HDCs, but the 2000 has a formatter in the ROM. The 318MB figure comes from using two RD54 drives (159 each). > At the rear of the machine are three sub-D connectors, one each 25-pin, 15-pin, and 9-pin. What are their functions? The 15 and 9 are presently encumbered by a plugin box that has three RJ45(?) connectors. Network link? > The 25 pin is the TTA2 port, RS423 (close to RS232) with full modem support (sort of). The 9 pin is TTA3:, another RS423 serial port for a local printer or terminal, but not wiored like a PC 9 pin serial. The 15 pin is for a workstation cable and carries the video (the coax connector on the little box), plus a keyboard and mouse connector (TTA0: and TTA1: serial ports). They are not RJ45s. You should also have a BNC coax connector for 10Base5 thinwire ethernet. For more info check the comp.os.vms and comp.sys.dec newsgroups, they have lots of FAQs for uVAX 2000s. I don't know the URLs but if you post a question on one of the ngs they will direct you to the web page. BTW, I might have an expansion memory board left for a uvax 2000, i'll check the old DEC scrap box. IIRC it brings one up to either 8 or 14MB of RAM. (a uVAX II maxes out at 16MB of RAM) Jack Peacock

28 years, 1 month

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new additions, info wanted

by g＠kurico.com

More fun stuff picked up this weekend: Canon Cat - A glorified word processor that was created by one of the original members of the Macintosh team. Mentor Graphics badged Apollo DN300 workstation. Whole box of Apple II cards and other misc stuff. Anyone have any info the the Canon Cat? Or manuals/software for the Apollo? Oh, I also have a couple of AT&T 6300 cpu's that I'll give to anyone who wants them (don't know if they work, don't have time to check them out). I also have a AT&T 3B2-310 with external expansion unit (XM something or other) for sale or trade, make me an offer I can't refuse :) BTW I'm in Austin, TX. George

28 years, 1 month

2
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Intelus/NEC laptop

by gpine＠gri.org

I recently acquired a laptop that appears to be an NEC PC-8201 with a label of a company named Intelus on the front where the PC-8201 label would be. There is also a serial number label on the back that lists the address of Intelus as in Rockville, Maryland. In addition, it has a miniature connector labeled phone on the back in place of the second SIO connector (maybe the unit has an internal modem? I haven't opened it up to check), and it has an additional small removable panel on the back that provides access to an edge-card connector on the motherboard. My machine has nothing plugged into this connector. The machine fires up showing BASIC, TELCOM, and TEXT programs in ROM, and the BASIC program even says PC-8201 Basic, verson 1.1. The machine is in all other respects (keyboard, display, battery pack, ROM access, and external connectors) identical to my PC-8201. Is anyone familiar with this machine?

28 years, 1 month

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Wa

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 08:01 PM 6/18/98 +1, you wrote: >Robotron ? > >Talking about the East German Computers ? Robotron is also a video game ca. 1981-2 (Williams, iirc) that was semi-unique in that it used dual joysticks -- one to control movement and one to control firing direction -- and in order to be at all successful at the game one had to be able to operate the two completely independantly of each other. Other, similar games included Sinistar (no relation, and don't even go there) and one whose name I forgot that had to do with spiders and webs. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

3
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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 07:56 PM 6/18/98 -0700, you wrote: >I've got a Joust I might let go for something tasty. It's the same >system board, you only need to swap the ROMs and re-work the control >panel ;) ROM's might be possible, but a Robotron game gets a lot of heavy-duty usage; I don't think I could trust any mods I would make to the controls. 8^( --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

2
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What is the first computer?

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

>>Yes, but Pascal was born in 1623 so Schickard's device most likely beats >>whatever Pascal developed in his lifetime (I think he was 18 when he >>invented it). > > Late-comers, all of them. My vote for the earliest computer is the > Antikythera Device, a bronze mechanical lunar month calculator built in > Greece about 80AD. > > Shickard's "Calculating Clock" was the next mechanical calculator of record > in 1623, followed by Blaise Pascal's "Pascaline" in 1642, Samuel Morland's > mechanical calculator in 1666, Gottfried Leibnez' "Stepped Reckoner" in > 1674, Phillip-Malthus Hahn's calculating machines (the first sold > commercially) in 1774, and the third Earl of Stanhope's multiplying > calculator in 1777. The first mass-produced calculating machine was Thomas > de Colmar's "Arithmometer" in 1820. Good point. Many early clocks were (or contained) primitive analogue computers, so I think you win there... sort of. Two books to look at: "The Mediaeval Machine" by J. Gimpel and "A History of Engineering in Classical and Mediaeval Times" by D. R. Hill. Gimpel will fill several holes in your timeline - Su Sung made quite a complicated astronomical clock in c. 1090; the middle ages saw a sizeable crop of similar machines in the west, culminating in that of Giovanni Dondi, under development from 1348 until 1364. Hill's treatment of clocks is also interesting. He points out that the Classical civilisations had (presumably inherited from the ancients) a system by which the hour changed in length depending on the date so that sunrise to sunset was always twelve hours. Thus ordinary timekeeping clocks had to combine time and date in an analogue computer to get hour-number out at the end. Some of the mechanisms Hill describes get this quite wrong! (I don't recall any of these clocks also taking account of lattitude...) OK. I'll go for the Z1 as the first _general purpose_ computer. Philip.

28 years, 1 month

2
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Atari SLMC804 Laser - What Is It?

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Ok Atari-heads, what the hell is an SLMC804 Laser? It looks like some sort of SCSI adapter. Its an external device the size of an external modem. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98]

28 years, 1 month

2
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attn: John Keyes

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

I'm sorry for cluttering up the list, but our email system strips off the senders address! John, if you get this message, Please respond via private E-Mail. Thanks! - Jeff We now return you to our regualrly scheduled programme . . .

28 years, 1 month

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Help! RA82, etc.

by emu＠ecubics.com

Hi Bruce, I had most of your problems on a ra90 ... ---------- > From: Bruce Lane <kyrrin(a)jps.net> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Help! RA82, etc. > Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 9:40 PM > OK... I've got a MicroVAX II almost ready to go. However, I'm handicapped > by my lack of any documentation for the RA82 disk drive. sure you are ;-)) > The problem: When spun up, even when connected to the KDA50 controller, > the drive gets up to speed, seeks a couple of times, and then lights 'Fault.' > > My question: Do I even have the thing wired right? Could someone familiar > with this stuff describe to me which cable goes where, just to make sure > I'm not hallucinating? at least, if you are really sure, you made the right connections, test & check it again. the sdi cables are very picky, if you "made" a connection, be sure to fasten the screws also. sometimes it doesn't work without fasten it. > The controller seems OK. It passes its internal and service diagnostics, > and when I stare at the LEDs on the two boards long enough I can see some > sort of fast scanning sequence going on about every 5-7 seconds. one more shot in the dark ;-)) the ra81 & ra82 have in diagnostic port on the disks. you can get more information about the disks, if you put a terminal at it. But don't ask, i never done it, (i got my disks to run without it) try DejaNews. hope it helps a little, emanuel

28 years, 1 month

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Atari SLMC804 Laser - What Is It?

by franke＠sbs.de

> Ok Atari-heads, what the hell is an SLMC804 Laser? It looks like some > sort of SCSI adapter. Its an external device the size of an external > modem. One of the 'Power without the Price' products from ATARI. basicly a 300 dpi Laser unit with only minimal control logic (only a bit map buffer for one (?) line of graphic. Connection to the ST computers where made via the ACSI port - ATARIs castarated version of SCSI used for the ST Harddisk. The whole font and page processing had to be done by the host computer - but the Printer was availabel for less than 2000 Mark (~1300 USD) when new - only haf the price of the cheapest 'regular' laser printer. Servus Hans PS.: 20c for THE hair (but only if a nice poly acryl display case is included). -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 1 month

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WTB/T: Conner hard drives

by JRichardson＠softwright.co.uk

>> Conner CP-3044 3.5" 40mb (42mb actual?) IDE hard drive rats, I had a whole heap of these a while ago but disposed of them all - they seem extremely unreliable and kept on dying on me, so I dumped the lot... I don't know if it's true of all IDE drives, but you may be able to use a different drive; you just won't get more than the 40MB out of it... cheers J.

28 years, 1 month

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principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080)

by desieh＠southcom.com.au

email: desieh(a)southcom.com.au desieh(a)bigfoot.com museum_curator(a)hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 4:20 Subject: Re: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) they where used in school in the states, the where called I think "bell & Howards" they also came with the lid screwed down..........to stop the little ones touching the "shiny" bits inside.......... > > > > >Well, I've never seen one. Then again, I've never seen your ass. >Why were they black? Was it a special edition? Were the beige ones >or the black ones first? >> >>> its just getting worse by the minute check this out from the Obsolete >>> Computer helpline: >>> >>> >>> Matt Antonellis <206-343-7576 P.S.T.> >>> seattle, wa usa - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 18:43:02 >>> >>> FOR SALE: $500 rare BLACK AppleIIplus very good condition call MATT >>> ANTONELLIS in SEATTLE 206-343-7576 >> >>Rare my hairy ass. This is about as rare as the hair on my ass. >> >>Sam Alternate e-mail: >dastar(a)wco.com >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >> >> September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2! >> See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details >> [Last web page update: 06/18/98] >> >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >

28 years, 1 month

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principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 10:13 AM 6/20/98 -0700, you wrote: >>After a round of email bidding, the seller sez: >>Somebody recently suggested that it would be better to offer stuff >>directly to readers of this list rather than advertising them via online I seem to remember that eBay offers private auctions -- you put something up for bid and just tell the people you want about it. That sort of thing might facilitate auctioning things off to list members. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

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Sorry

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Sorry for the personal message... I told Pine *not* to reply to the Group, but... BAD Pine! BAD! BAD! Sorry again.... I will wear a Luser hat and sit in the corner for an hour trying to find a missing comma in the middle of a 6 Mb hex core-dump. Cheers John

28 years, 1 month

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9 TRK Drives, Oz, Driving

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Hello List::::: I am looking for one or two 'real' DEC 9 trk tape drives w/formatter cards, in the SoCal area... TU16 and the like, and one of the small 7" reel jobs whose model number escapes me just now. I am willing to pay moderate sums for known-good-working units. Also looking for a *complete* 11/750 system... (computer, drives, tape unit, console, docs[ha!], etc.). I have a very old 11/15 to sell/trade, and several Plessey clone devices, including two CDC Caelus drives w/interface cards and engineering docs.... I can deliver in the General SoCal area. Note to Down Under Listmembers: I will be travelling to Sydney on the 2nd of July, and then caravanning to Adelaide over the space of about 10 days. It would be cool to meet some of my fellow collectors while I'm in your quadrant of the globe. E-mail me privately if there's any interest.... esp. Huw Davies, it would be fun to thank you in person for the help with my RK05 odyssey... ;} Driving: The farthest I've gone to 'rescue' PDP stuff was Los Angeles to Seattle and back in three days... 2200 miles. It was truly fun to be out on the Road away from work, phones, e-mail, faxes, memos, interruptions... thanks again to Bruce Lane for providing the excuse.. :o Oh, yeah... anyone have a Kennedy 9300 cheap/trade/free? I need some Parts...... Cheers John

28 years, 1 month

2
2
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HP 85

by mbg＠world.std.com

>I personally think that $50 is max for any desktop computer over 10 >years old, with some exceptions like Lisas and Apple Is. Anyway, some >guy at the MIT flea today had a whole stack of them. What are they? Those are the ones I saw as well... he was asking $25 for a broken one (but cosmetically pretty good) and $100 for the working ones. If I remember correctly, they are essentially a BASIC computer with printer and something similar to a TU58 drive. It's just that I remember using one at WPI when I was there in the 70's and wanted to get one for my collection... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

28 years, 1 month

1
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Help! RA82, etc.

by kyrrin＠jps.net

OK... I've got a MicroVAX II almost ready to go. However, I'm handicapped by my lack of any documentation for the RA82 disk drive. The problem: When spun up, even when connected to the KDA50 controller, the drive gets up to speed, seeks a couple of times, and then lights 'Fault.' I'll press the 'Fault' button to try and reset. On the first press, 'Run/Stop' and 'Write Protect' flash. On the second press, it goes through its seek-and-fault cycle again. My question: Do I even have the thing wired right? Could someone familiar with this stuff describe to me which cable goes where, just to make sure I'm not hallucinating? The controller seems OK. It passes its internal and service diagnostics, and when I stare at the LEDs on the two boards long enough I can see some sort of fast scanning sequence going on about every 5-7 seconds. I can, if need be, open up the RA82 and see which internal LEDs come up. Any and all help appreciated. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

28 years, 1 month

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Recent Commodore finds...

by foxnhare＠goldrush.com

What a surprising day, went to the Stockton Delta College Flea Market (in California) and found a couple goodies... First I bought an SX-64 keyboard and C-128 in the $1.00 section of someones space. I bought the SX keyboard cause I have a second (dead) SX without one the 128 was because I felt sorry for them having to break a 20 (also I figured if it was dead I could use its keyboard with that keyboardless 128D I have). After wandering a bit my wife shows up with a keyboardless SX-64 also from the same booth's dollar section, what a wonderful woman! (I must've missed that SX, better have my eyes checked!). Anyway $3.00 spent and get home to discover the 128 works (missing the F3 key) and the SX has some issues but seems functional (does not boot to BASIC, just a black screen, but does run carts ok, probably bad BASIC/KERNEL ROMs also keyboard connector/curcuitry needs work too.) So far I have bought 3 128s (real cheap) with the plan to use the (supposed dead 128's) keyboard on the D to discover it was not even a dead machine after all. Well Sam, (who finds many a dead Commodore 8-bit) I guess Commodore spirits aren't with you. :) Almost was tempted to buy a few of someone else's Mac problems (nice seller, he told the truth on all of em), but I figured I'd play it smart (this time). -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

28 years, 1 month

1
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HP 85

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I personally think that $50 is max for any desktop computer over 10 years old, with some exceptions like Lisas and Apple Is. Anyway, some guy at the MIT flea today had a whole stack of them. What are they? > >I just wanted to find out if people on this list think that $100 for >an HP85 with printer and tape drive is a fair price. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | >| Digital Equipment Corporation | | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

3
2
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What is the first computer?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<So what you're saying is that my dream of a steam-driven computer isn't t <ravings of a madman after all... Humm... steam driven logic... sequential, genius locomotive. Ah, err, been done. ;) Allison

28 years, 1 month

1
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HP 85

by mbg＠world.std.com

I just wanted to find out if people on this list think that $100 for an HP85 with printer and tape drive is a fair price. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

28 years, 1 month

5
6
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What is the first computer?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<that relay) in your logic. If you took an electronic logic circuit and <replaced the gates with relays, the result would be very slow. But if you <implemented the same logic with relays and redesigned it, the result <would be possibly useable. Logic design with realys have different implmentations as a bistable with gates can be one relay. Stepping relays are inherent counters and can be made to count to any amount. I've used realy logic for machine control, operating speed 2 to 5 sec per interation so fast was not a required thing. Doing sequential work using relays and switches is really fun. Of course all that drove air valves so there was air logic too. ;) Oh, and you can do logic with air valves, air one shots, even flipflops.

28 years, 1 month

3
2
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principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Well, I've never seen one. Then again, I've never seen your ass. Why were they black? Was it a special edition? Were the beige ones or the black ones first? > >> its just getting worse by the minute check this out from the Obsolete >> Computer helpline: >> >> >> Matt Antonellis <206-343-7576 P.S.T.> >> seattle, wa usa - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 18:43:02 >> >> FOR SALE: $500 rare BLACK AppleIIplus very good condition call MATT >> ANTONELLIS in SEATTLE 206-343-7576 > >Rare my hairy ass. This is about as rare as the hair on my ass. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)wco.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2! > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details > [Last web page update: 06/18/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

3
2
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HP 85

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

So how much do you want for my two gallons of distilled enjoyment :) >Others might disagree with my definition of "worth", but if you think >you'll get more than $100 of enjoyment out of the setup, then I'd say >it's worth it. > >With all the discussions lately about auctions and pricing, I think >folks are losing sight that collecting classic computers is something >that we do for fun, not as an investment! Personally, I get far more >delight from restoring and using the machines than I do from bragging >about what I own. > >Tim. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

1
0
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Sun 3/50

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

My visit to the MIT Flea today was unproductive. But, so it wouldn't be wasted, I grabbed a Sun 3/50 for $1. It seems to work, and is in good condition. I looked at the board, it has a 68020. Can someone tell me more? Also, how do I hook it up to a terminal? Which pins do I need? I plugged my Mac in, but it didn't show anything. My Mac serial cable only has pins 2,3,6,7,8, and 21. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

1
0
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HP 85

by Anthony.Eros＠digital.com

Megan - > I just wanted to find out if people on this list think that $100 for > an HP85 with printer and tape drive is a fair price. I'd have to say probably not. I have a pair of HP-85s that I snagged in the last 18 months. One cost me $1.00 at a private school flea market and the other cost $12.50 at an auction run by Goodwill. The system from Goodwill included an HP padded travel case -- in fact, the system was originally stacked with some luggage and had not been bought during that portion of the auction. I found out after I pointed the system out to the auctioneer and bought it when they auctioned off the rest of the computer stuff (usually C64s, Atari, and the occasional Apple IIc or Mac Plus) that I could have simple asked for a "no bid" sale for the last bid price in the luggage area and gotten the system for $3.50. -- Tony Eros NSIS - ENS/Internet Wilmington, DE -----Original Message----- From: mbg(a)world.std.com [SMTP:mbg@world.std.com] Sent: Sunday, June 21, 1998 1:35 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: HP 85 I just wanted to find out if people on this list think that $100 for an HP85 with printer and tape drive is a fair price. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

28 years, 1 month

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principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080)

by fauradon＠pclink.com

So how much do you sell you hair for? ;) Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer Festival <siconic(a)jasmine.psyber.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 11:23 PM Subject: Re: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) >On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Desie Hay wrote: > >> its just getting worse by the minute check this out from the Obsolete >> Computer helpline: >> >> >> Matt Antonellis <206-343-7576 P.S.T.> >> seattle, wa usa - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 18:43:02 >> >> FOR SALE: $500 rare BLACK AppleIIplus very good condition call MATT >> ANTONELLIS in SEATTLE 206-343-7576 > >Rare my hairy ass. This is about as rare as the hair on my ass. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)wco.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2! > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details > [Last web page update: 06/18/98] >

28 years, 1 month

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principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080)

by rcini＠email.msn.com

>>What really scrapes my oxide is an approach that I am starting to see more >>often in postings in and newsgroups. (it has happened to me twice now in >>the last month) >>Someone posts an item with an asking price. I respond to the message with >>a counter offer. The seller responds with a counter-counter offer that I >>find acceptable. I respond to the message with my acceptance and provide >>shipping details. The seller then responded back indicating that he has >>received a higher offer and that the unit has been sold without so much as >>an opportunity for further response. Although I've participated in "auctions" of this type, I haven't gotten shanked by another bidder. I can see how easy the private auction process can be abused. I sometimes find myself doubtful of the bid increments that I've seen; too easy to fake interest to inflate the price. >>BTW: a HERO-2000 auction just closed on eBay for $4027.78... (sheesh!) I always wanted one of these when I was a kid. Wasn't it about $2k new? Unbelievable. Classic computers and robots, the next Beanie Babies! >>-jim (the obviously overly idealistic one...) Rich Cini/WUGNET <nospam_rcini(a)msn.com> - ClubWin! Charter Member - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Preserver of "classic" computers <<<< ========== reply separator ========== >>>>>

28 years, 1 month

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Old Microsoft stuff...

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Is there anyone who DIDN'T make a UNIX port? Apple - A/UX IBM - AIX MS - Xenix AT&T - UNIX DEC? DR? > >You mean Xenix? > Ciao, > >Tim D. Hotze > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

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New e-mail address

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Excuse the interruption, but if you've been using dastar(a)wco.com to send me e-mail then please note I have a new e-mail address: dastar(a)verio.com You can also always reach me at sam(a)siconic.com which will probably never change. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98]

28 years, 1 month

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principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080)

by desieh＠southcom.com.au

-----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <franke(a)sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 6:30 Subject: Re: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) >> I agree with you completely...however evil ebay may be, at least it is a >> structured enviornment with rules and etiquette that is regulated. > >Agreed > >> I am of the opinion that some of these characters are scrounging around >> ebay and newsgroups soliciting bidders just to get out of paying the >> commission...then they invent these rediculous auction scenarios. I think >> there should be some sort of formal boycott. > >I still like sBay an similar systems. At least they secure the >process a bit - like in an ordinary auction. And auctions are, >for shure, no place for rare or most wanted items. Not VL and >not RL. But they are a good thing to get fair prices for some >unusual or common things. I bought some rare spare parts via >eBay for just cents (and a brand new never opened never used >complete Mac IIsi for less than 100 USD :). But the best hits >are always on ordinary swap markets (flea markets) (like today >*g*) - even electronic swaps tend to have high prices. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK > email: desieh(a)southcom.com.au desieh(a)bigfoot.com museum_curator(a)hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm its just getting worse by the minute check this out from the Obsolete Computer helpline: Matt Antonellis <206-343-7576 P.S.T.> seattle, wa usa - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 18:43:02 FOR SALE: $500 rare BLACK AppleIIplus very good condition call MATT ANTONELLIS in SEATTLE 206-343-7576

28 years, 1 month

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Website status?

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Christian Fandt <cfandt(a)servtech.com> wrote: ] Hey gang! ] ] Several times during the past week or ten days I've tried to connect to the ] ClassicCmp website http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp but ] never seemed to be up. Always got a message after Netscape timed out ] suggesting the web server is either down or not responding. Anybody know ] what's happening? That's been dead for nearly as long as I've been here, about a year. And there's also that rescue-list put up by Isaac Davis, that also has been non-maintained for as long. My suggestion to everybody is to put up your own classiccmp page, and make sure you include the words "classic computer" so it can be found easily through the search engines. Or, if you are volunteering to rescue old machines, include the words "classic computer rescue squad", and include your interests, geographical area, and contact info. At one point, I was extremely tempted to put up some "official" web pages to take over for those dead pages. But then I thought about it: both of the other two who did this have vanished without a trace. Maybe I don't want to follow too closely in their footsteps. :-) Bill. ] Thanks, ] --Chris ] -- -- ] Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian ] Jamestown, NY USA ] Member of Antique Wireless Association ] URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/

28 years, 1 month

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COMODORE=TANDY

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Chris Halarewich <chrish(a)knet.kootenay.net> wrote: ] I was looking around at http://www.patents.ibm.com ] ] I discovered that Commodore Electronics held the ] patent for the case of the TRS-80 CoCo2(3?), which makes me wonder if ] they designed the rest of the computer for Radio Shack. ] ] Any Edgeumacated guesses anyone...anyone :) ] ] Chris Halarewich The data sheet for the Motorola 6883 Synchronous Address Multiplexor, which is the key wonder-chip in the CoCo 1 and 2, includes a schematic that accounts for about 80% of the CoCo design. The 6883 and 6847 were clearly designed to be used together, and the rest of the design was pretty much driven by that. Of course, the CoCo does have a little stuff hanging off of the two PIA's that isn't given in that data sheet. But I'd be surprised if they had gone to Commodore for that. Of course, I'm surprised enough at the patent on the case (who would need to infringe a patent to make a rectanguloid plastic box?!), so I guess the origin of the remainder of the circuit design could surprise me too... Bill.

28 years, 1 month

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More additions to the Museum

by jrkeys＠concentric.net

Here are some of this week's finds: 1. 3-Apple Monochrome monitors IIe 2. 8-Apple 5.25 FD 3. 8-Giltronic Selecto-switch for Apple's 4. UltraDrive 45 for Mac with all cables and terminator 5. Apple duodisk A9M0108 6. 2-Apple IIe's 7. RCA Data Terminal model UP4801 similar to C64 a all in the keyboard unit even has a Acousic coupler conection and a RJ11 phone jack built in. 8. AMPI printer model 88 9. 2-Apple IIgs one is the WOZ limited edition model. 10. A Data General/One model 2 I already had a model 1, this unit came with the power supply. 11. EPSON PX-8 model H101A notebook computer has builtin micro cassette unit missing power supply but can run on batteries. 12. Digicard shared resource expansion unit and a contoller unit for apples. 13. Corvus OmniDrive model 45MB 14. 4-Apple Color Monitor IIe 15. Box of cables all types (a large box) 16. 2-IBM RT tower units need work 17. Heathkit Microcomputer learning system model 3400 series ET-3400A 18. HP 32936A ROM Drawer 19. 3-Mac 128k kb's 20. Box VAX manuals 21. Some old HP test equipment catalogs 22. Color Classic Mac 23. AT&T Mono monitor for 6300 24. AT&T kb for 6300 KBD302 25. And many more items than can be listed here because of the 10 year rule. It was good week for me and I hope you all have had some good fines. Keep on Computing John

28 years, 1 month

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by franke＠sbs.de

>> You just searched a phon directory ? Didn't you ? Or >> who told you that I live near the Deutsches Museum ? >> True, my apartment is just 100m from the (back) entrance. >> Their _very_ early collection - up to the Zuse - ist quite >> good, but anything later is crap - or at least the display >> is crap - I left the museum society because of the computer >> displays. I'm especialy upset because they have _real_ >> unique things to show in a _unique_ way, but they just build >> some junk place. > It can't be as bad as the Science Museum in London, surely. I was there > earlier this week, and what a _joke_!!! I never been there - hmm maybe I should tak a weekend - is there a Website to get the opening hours ? > The digital computing collection seems to consist of the Pilot ACE (worth > seeing, but it's _never_ in operation), the Babbage difference engine > (again, well worth seeing), and a poor collection of random bits of more > modern machines/peripherals. Oh, thats also the best description for the 'modern' displays in the Deutsches Museum: random bits. Especialy for the small devices. >> Example: they recived a _complete_ SIEMENS 2002, the first >> fuly transistorized copmuter. Not only the main boxes - >> they got _everything_ needed to show the machine complete, >> including _all_ manuals, even spare parts. I think it would >> have been possible to rebuild this marvelous machine and >> power it up (ok, once) to show it. Maybe it is still possible, >> but it has to be done soon - right now several of the old >> tecnicans are still alive, but in ten years from now noone >> will be here to tell the story. > We've had this discussion here before. Museums are (IMHO) too interested > in preserving the fabric of a device (which is important, but not the > most important thing) rather than the operation. My guess is that in > (say) 50 years time there will be machines in museums that are still in > exactly the same condition as when they were taken out of service, but > nobody knows how to get them running again, what they were really used > for, or how to operate them. We (as in the majority of people on this > list) are doing the opposite in general. We keep machines working, even > if it means doing some non-original repairs (but we try to keep things as > original as possible). I suspect our collections and those of museums > will both be of value in the future, but for different reasons. Ok, the 2002 wouldn't be exactly the machine for continous display in action, but even if it is just as static display, this one time running test ist the best verification that the static display is _complete_. (In fact, the critical part of the 2002 is the storage drum - even back in time when it was new, every power up and down had to be guarded by tecnicans - hmm but even here, since the drum is a closed device, one could replace it (invisible) by a modern electronic emulation... just thinking) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 1 month

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by franke＠sbs.de

> But then you're missing all the fun of watching the drum! That's the > cool part about REALLY old machines. With them, one could still get > his hands dirty in oil, as opposed to dust. The drum was (is) capsuled. Nothing to wiew beside a big old e-motor. Gruss H. (hates exchange) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 1 month

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IMSAI 8080

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

Guys: I am posting this message on the behalf of a third party. PLease contact him directly. For Sale: IMSAI 8080 Microcomputer This is the model with the switches on the front panel (non turnkey). Inside: Several memory boards Original IMS CPU Tarbell tape controller MicroComplex Phase Lock II FDC (by Frank Hogg) Video Adaptor/Keyboard Interface Outside: External Keyboard Dual Cassette drives (they look pretty strange) Dual 5.25 Floppy drives (non IMSAI) There is 'A Ton' of software for this thing, and it's supposed to run CP/M (I've seen the docs, but not the floppies). All of the boards, software, etc. have the original docs. Alot of the software is on cassette. There are also a bunch of spare boards: qty Make Model Whatizit? --- ------------- --------------------- -------------- 11 Micro Complex Phase Lock II FDC 1 North Star MDC-A2 MDC 1 Coex 64k Static RAM 1 Tanner 64k Static Ram 1 MITS 8800 CPU CPU Card 1 Solid State Music S-100 Video Interface 1 Morrow 8k RAM Module 1 WameCo EPM-2 EPROM Board 1 PolyMorphic Syst. A/D + D/A 2 Morrow/Godbout Econo-RAM 4k memory 1 STM 8k(?) RAM Board 1 Celetron Altair Board Extender 1 Vandenburg Data 16k Static Ram The seller would favor selling the whole lot. Asking price: $300 Contact: Denys G. Fredrickson denysgf(a)juno.com

28 years, 1 month

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First personal storage media...

by franke＠sbs.de

>> At 09:25 PM 6/18/98 -0700, you wrote: >>>New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system) did >>>you guys carry around to start out with? >>> I started with cassettes for the PETs at high school, though not as old as >>>some but still nostalgic. I still have my original first tape, though it had >>>been transfered to a new housing and snaps when a good (assertive?) datasette >>>rewinds it, it is still readable. >> First??? DECtape, 1 inch wide on the 4 inch reels from the PDP-8 in the >> OMSI computer labs. On occasion 8 level paper tape from the teletypes that >> we used to access a GE time-share system in Seattle. > Well I guess this dates me, but , 80 column punch cards. Do > not bend ,spindle or mutilate. > The only benefit was when a few years later on my advertising > distribution company was delivering a promo for a large supermarket > firm that shall go unnamed, cards that had some prizes included. > The cards were put thru an interpreter at the check-out counter > and some were winning cards if you had the item mentioned in > your basket. Since I could read the cards we pulled some of the > better prizes and presented them at different stores. > " Oh I won a Steak ? Thats great , I just happen to have one in > my basket." > We lived more dangerously in those days. Nice - I could offer 9 hole paper tape over a (modified) T100 Teletype on my Kim - before that I used paper and pencile until the program was 'finished' and than an PROM burner for archiving - superiour accestime :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 1 month

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What is the first computer?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Yes, relays are a lot slower than electronic devices, and yes, they may <be less reliable. But they're not as slow as all that. They are reliable, especially the sealed ones...saves extracting bugs(moths) with tweezers(aka: Lt Hopper). Speed; the problem is cascade. I've worked with relay trees of good size and while each can do 10s of repetitions persecond tens of them in cascade can only complete one cycle in a second. To do logic like a counter using relays is slow even though the individual relays may be fairly fast. Though using s stepper relay is faster than chained relays. Allison

28 years, 1 month

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principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080)

by franke＠sbs.de

> I agree with you completely...however evil ebay may be, at least it is a > structured enviornment with rules and etiquette that is regulated. Agreed > I am of the opinion that some of these characters are scrounging around > ebay and newsgroups soliciting bidders just to get out of paying the > commission...then they invent these rediculous auction scenarios. I think > there should be some sort of formal boycott. I still like sBay an similar systems. At least they secure the process a bit - like in an ordinary auction. And auctions are, for shure, no place for rare or most wanted items. Not VL and not RL. But they are a good thing to get fair prices for some unusual or common things. I bought some rare spare parts via eBay for just cents (and a brand new never opened never used complete Mac IIsi for less than 100 USD :). But the best hits are always on ordinary swap markets (flea markets) (like today *g*) - even electronic swaps tend to have high prices. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 1 month

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wnated manuals for HP 9915

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

The title says it all. I'm looking for ANY documentation for the HP 9915. Joe

28 years, 1 month

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What is the first computer?

by franke＠sbs.de

> Allison J Parent wrote: >><> Mechanical: man or motor powered, bars cams, wheels >><> Electric: Relays, steppers, solonoids and contacts has logic tree. >><> Electronic: uses active devices, tubes, transistors, ICs some types of >>> diodes and neon filled tubes. >><A good definition, I could agree, althrough I've seen >><Electric and Electronic the same, since a relay isn't >><diferent from a transistor or a tube for the effekt >><(beside the current). >> The distinction for the last two is significant from a design and speed >> standpoint. the design process is very different at the detail level. > Yah, with a relay-based system, a one-hertz clock speed would be > setting a record. Woooooosh - Your 'record' machine was just bypassed by a 1941 Zuse build from junk telephone relais. According to Zuse a multiplication took 3 seconds. A Multiply nedded 16 Machine cycls and 16/3 equals to 5.33 Hz - just - 5 times faster - calculated on cycles, but one cyle had 5 stages. Satge 1 to 3 where used for execution, while 4 and 5 are used for load and fetch - the operation fetch ocuresd simultaniously to the store. So even this early had paralell working units (didn't tried Intel to tell us that this was one of the big inventions of the Pentium - you know the processor with all the little rainbow coloured man inside instead of the usual LGM) Althrough the speed was something like 5 or 6 Hz, it is legal to speak about a clock speed of 15 to 18 Hz when comparing to newer machines. And for relay speed itself - 40 to 100 (controlled) switchings per second have been possible for pre war relais and EMS relais (technique of the 60s) are able to do up to 1500 Hz - we tried it 20 years back :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 1 month

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

But then you're missing all the fun of watching the drum! That's the cool part about REALLY old machines. With them, one could still get his hands dirty in oil, as opposed to dust. >>> who told you that I live near the Deutsches Museum ? >>> True, my apartment is just 100m from the (back) entrance. > >>> Their _very_ early collection - up to the Zuse - ist quite >>> good, but anything later is crap - or at least the display >>> is crap - I left the museum society because of the computer >>> displays. I'm especialy upset because they have _real_ >>> unique things to show in a _unique_ way, but they just build >>> some junk place. > >> It can't be as bad as the Science Museum in London, surely. I was there >> earlier this week, and what a _joke_!!! > >I never been there - hmm maybe I should tak a weekend - is >there a Website to get the opening hours ? > >> The digital computing collection seems to consist of the Pilot ACE (worth >> seeing, but it's _never_ in operation), the Babbage difference engine >> (again, well worth seeing), and a poor collection of random bits of more >> modern machines/peripherals. > >Oh, thats also the best description for the 'modern' displays >in the Deutsches Museum: random bits. Especialy for the small >devices. > >>> Example: they recived a _complete_ SIEMENS 2002, the first >>> fuly transistorized copmuter. Not only the main boxes - >>> they got _everything_ needed to show the machine complete, >>> including _all_ manuals, even spare parts. I think it would >>> have been possible to rebuild this marvelous machine and >>> power it up (ok, once) to show it. Maybe it is still possible, >>> but it has to be done soon - right now several of the old >>> tecnicans are still alive, but in ten years from now noone >>> will be here to tell the story. > >> We've had this discussion here before. Museums are (IMHO) too interested >> in preserving the fabric of a device (which is important, but not the >> most important thing) rather than the operation. My guess is that in >> (say) 50 years time there will be machines in museums that are still in >> exactly the same condition as when they were taken out of service, but >> nobody knows how to get them running again, what they were really used >> for, or how to operate them. We (as in the majority of people on this >> list) are doing the opposite in general. We keep machines working, even >> if it means doing some non-original repairs (but we try to keep things as >> original as possible). I suspect our collections and those of museums >> will both be of value in the future, but for different reasons. > >Ok, the 2002 wouldn't be exactly the machine for continous >display in action, but even if it is just as static display, >this one time running test ist the best verification that the >static display is _complete_. > >(In fact, the critical part of the 2002 is the storage drum - >even back in time when it was new, every power up and down >had to be guarded by tecnicans - hmm but even here, since >the drum is a closed device, one could replace it (invisible) >by a modern electronic emulation... just thinking) > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

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First personal storage media...

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Sorry about the white space, I'm using Lynx, as always... I agree with that! I've taken two sets of disks for Mac System 7 from a Mac Lab, and both had bad disks. OTOH, the 6.0.4 disks still work fine, probably because of the lower density. Sometimes I wonder if there's something wrong w/my drives, but they can read data written by other drives... >a month later. And yes my drive heads are clean, and the drive is set up >as per the service manual. > >Sometimes I wish I could pay more for a disk and get one that lasts. My >data is worth a lot more than $5 or whatever. > >> >> New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system) did >> you guys carry around to start out with? My first exposure to storage was 5.25" disks in third grade for the Apple ][. It was old then. We were being terrorized by a moron who spent a month telling us to put disks into a sleeve. I wondered if he knew to do anything else. BTW, can a disk be damaged if taken out while it is being read from? That was a sin I had commited... > >After that came : magnetic cards on an HP41CV, 5.25" floppies (initially >on the school's RML380Z, then on my TRS-80), paper tape (I got a >non-working ASR33 and repaired it), 8" floppies, 3" floppies, punched >cards, 3.5" floppies, hard disk packs, 9 track tapes, QIC tapes. > >Of course many of those are used on more than 1 machine, and I'm only >listing the first time I used them. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

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