>I was digging through some S-100 cards and came upon a Godbout active
>terminator. Do all S-100 buses require external termination, or did
more
>have it built into the mobo? Specifically, do I need to stick this
card
>into my IMSAI?
>
It depends on what kind of motherboard you have. Typically, the
terminator was at the end opposite where the front panel or CPU card
plugged in. Early S-100 motherboards ran at only 2 Mhz (8080 CPU) or
2.5 Mhz (early Z-80) so termination wasn't quite so important. Later,
when speeds were pushed past 4Mhz the terminator became crucial to
reliability. Look at the back end of your motherboard, if you don't
see an array of resistors, about 90 or so, then put the Godbout board
in the very last slot, and your CPU card as close as possible to the
front slot, right behind the front panel.
I used one when I went to 4Mhz on the original 22 slot IMSAI
motherboard, it does help. After the IMSAI MB wore out I switched to
Thinkertoys and Godbout (later called Compupro) motherboards, they had
the terminator built in.
Jack Peacock
Picked up a nice little HP Series 100 Model 120 45600A and a few hundred
other numbers on the bottom... Anyways, it's a very interesting model.
Works fine, has two DB-25 ports(modem and printer, both serial?) and an
HP-IB port, and uses two small batteries that look like N size or close to
that. And a cute keyboard, lotso keys but very small. Anyways... Does
anyone know anything about it? I couldn't find anything on HP's web site,
and nothing showed up immediatley on web searches. What kind of terminal is
it? Are the ports normal RS-232? What does the HP-IB port do, and how do I
access it? So many questions... Too bad there was no manual. But then what
do you expect for $5? At least I got a keyboard...
--------------------------------------------------------------
| http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers |
| http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek |
| Orham(a)qth.net list admin KD7BCY |
--------------------------------------------------------------
An RD54 is an oem version of the Maxtor 2190 disk drive. You might have
better luck looking for specs on that drive. AFAIK it is identical to
the RD54 except for the label DEC puts on it.
Jack Peacock
-----Original Message-----
From: emanuel stiebler [mailto:emu@ecubics.com]
Sent: Friday, July 24, 1998 10:00 AM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: ST506 & RD54
Hi all,
Where on the net, i could find the ST506 specification, or something
like a
RD54 OEM-Manual ?
thanks,
emanuel
John Rollins <rexstout(a)uswest.net> wrote:
> Picked up a nice little HP Series 100 Model 120 45600A and a few hundred
It's sort of a successor to the 125 and predecessor to the 150. It's
an HP2382 "Shadow" terminal housing with a CP/M computer (I think a
Z80 but I can't recall for sure) inside.
The HP-IB port would be used to connect to an external disc drive,
just like on a 150 and using pretty much the same 91xx disc drives. I
think I remember using one with a 9121D? -- the one with two
single-sided stiffies.
I can't recall whether it will play terminal without CP/M. I do
remember that in order to get it to play block-mode capable terminal
(so it could be used with View aka V/3000 aka VPLUS/3000) it needed
to boot CP/M and run a program, and vaguely recall that it could be
a not-block-mode-capable terminal without that program (and maybe
without loading CP/M).
One other thing I recall about it is that it had a precursor to PAM
(Personal Application Manager -- a primitive shell/application
launcher that later turned up on the 150, 110, some HP9000s, and the
Vectra) that was autostarted by CP/M immediately following boot. It
used function keys to start the applications, so you could only have
seven or eight defined for it to start.
The RS232 ports are probably DB25S connectors and I think they look
like DTE -- similar pinout to an IBM PC async card with a DB25P.
-Frank McConnell
Here is a message that I received today, I forward it to all you fellow
Commodore enthusiasts, if you are interested in some nice PET stuff (keep me
in mind for PET books and software, will ya?)
> Subject: PET disposal
> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:05:38 -0600
> From: Sjoerd Schaafsma <rocklake(a)telusplanet.net>
> Reply-To: rocklake(a)agt.net
>Organization: University of Lethbridge
> To: foxnhare(a)goldrush.com
>
> HI Larry,
>
> I'm in Lethbridge Alberta, and would like to dispose of a few PETs,
> 4032, 8032, and disk drives, I just can't bring myself to junk 'em.
> Know of any interested parties?
>
>
--
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363
Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at:
http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> From: "Sie Raybould" <sie(a)systemfile.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: WTB: Jupiter Ace
>
> Anyone got a Jupiter Ace they'd be prepared to part with ?
>
> Sie
I just was reading in a book about a sinclair ROM replacement for FORTH that
sounds alot like the Jupiter Ace's features. Multi-task up to four programs,
etc. It was referred to the "FORTH in ROM by David Husband". Hope that helps any.
--
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363
Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at:
http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Hi guys,
I just picked up a bunch of IBM power supplies at auction. The
auctioneer says they're for the 5140, but I don't know how you could tell.
They're all appear to be brand new and are in the original boxes. The
box is labeled "P/N 2684220", the Power supply "P/N 2684292". Output is
15v, 2.7A.
Anybody know what they're for? And if anybody wants one, the price is $5
shipped, each.
Tom Owad
--
Sysop of Caesarville Online
Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>
I just got a funny cartridge for the early Commodore PC-10 and PC-20 series
computers. There 2 connectors, one plugs into the modem port and the other
into the printer port. Then power up the machine and a 2 digit alpha/numeric
HEX LED displays the problem. Commodore #380025-01.
Anyone have any info on this?
Rich Cini/WUGNET <nospam_rcini(a)msn.com>
- ClubWin/CW6
- MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
- Preserver of "classic" computers
<<<< ========== reply separator ========== >>>>>
< Of course, this is a bit of a problem for people like me, who are too
< young for an IMSAI, never mind a PDP8
How is this a problem? You learned how to run a PC, programming a PDP-8
is at least an order of magnitude simpler. Seriously, the instruction
set and archetecture is so simple it's downright inviting. The DG Novas
are pretty straight forward too. The old machines didn't have to be huge,
complex or networked. They only had to work.
Allison
< Can I make use of the Centronics interface?
Yes with any current printer just like a PC, though the connector may be
different.
<What type of 'serial car' do you recommend?
Toyota, I've had good luck. Oh sorry, serial card, what ever you have or
can get. Jamco still sells apple][ cards and stuff.
< Can I use my Apple //c w/serial port but w/o CP/M?
Sure!
< >Apple ][ disks don't use standard FM or MFM encoding, so Macs and PCs
< can't
< >read them. If you can find a serial car for the Apple, the easiest wa
< >would be to get a copy of Kermit-65 (for DOS 3.3 files) and/or Kermit8
< >(for CP/M) and transfer the files over a serial link -- that's what I
or MDM, or one of a dozen others for each OS.
< >Kermit-65 comes with instructions on how to get it into an Apple that
< >doesn't already have any kind of file transfer software, and IIRC
< Kermit80
< >has some similar instructions. You can get Kermit by anonymous ftp
< from
< >ftp.columbia.edu, or http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/, or from any of
< >several mirror sites.
Kermit is well known and supported by most PC transfer programs.
Max, get an editor. Either that or don't use LYNX for mail, try elm or
pine.
Allison
< I assume you mean the apps. CP/M and DOS are fairly similar
Similar yes, processors are very different. Z80 code will not run on a
PC (without an emulator) and PC software is useless to cp/m z80.
< Why do you need an 8" controller? The same floppy controller can be
< used for both 5.25" and 3.5". There never were any jumpers for any
Why is the sky blue. If I need to read a 8" of course.
< In fact, I am not familiar with any real difference between PCI and
< ISA controllers. I have never had any floppy problems. The reason
Huge differce. also the Floppy controller is on the MB for most current
generation P-II PCs.
< edge connectors, unlike 3.5" which use BERG strips (is that what
< they're called?). This is the biggest problem one is likely to have.
Trivial problem. the cables have both. The real problem is when the
software goes to work or out to lunch.
Allison
At 02:47 PM 7/24/98 GMT, you wrote:
>>>From: Bill Kent <billakent(a)hotmail.com>
>>>My name is Bill Kent and I am working on a story for a major online
>>>publication. The focus is on users who use what others might consider
>>>"obsolete" technology. I would like to speak to a few users who use
>>>oder PCs (386 and below) for productivity apps. I'm talking about in
>>>business, education, or home. If you use them as servers or something
>>>else, that's super, I'd like to hear about it. I'm not interested in
>>>hobbyists who just enjoying hacking the machines. If it requires a
>>>soldering iron, it's too complex for this article.
Well, let's see. I use a Radio Shack model 100 (like many people) for
taking notes/writing away from home. Once I get my Starlet fixed, I'll be
doing the same with that (CP/M laptop, with Wordstar in ROM). I also have
an Outbound notebook (mac clone laptop ca. 1990) that I and my girlfriend
use.
She (Rachel Grilley, <auntierae(a)california.com>) also uses older macs in
her classroom to teach her first graders reading, math, science, etc. They
range from plusses to IIci's.
My voicemail system is currently running on a 286/512K/40mb system, but is
about to be upgraded Real Soon Now to a shoebox-sized 386sx system I picked
up recently at a surplus place. (Same VM card/software, just different
computer -- actually can run on an 8088 even.)
I have an Atari Portfolio (8088, DOS, size of a video tape) that I carry
around for taking notes.
I also use my Atari ST's and Falcons for music sequencing/recording.
(Well, not as much as I like, but once I win the lottery...) I can also
put you in touch with a lot of people who are using their ST's a lot.
And lastly, my main machine is a 486 laptop, but I have written a DOS-based
application to manage the San Francisco Free List (see
<http://www.sinasohn.com/freelist/> for more info) including maintaining
the database of events, building daily and monthly web pages, and
generating weekly event listings. Eventually, I'll probably move that onto
a different DOS-based laptop so others can assist in maintaining the events
database.
Anyway, feel free to drop me a note about any of the above (or anyhthing
else, for that matter).
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
Of course, this is a bit of a problem for people like me, who are too
young for an IMSAI, never mind a PDP8
>I've used - and repaired - a lot of embedded control systems using
>machines like the PDP11, PDP8, Data General Nova, etc. These machines
>work as well today as they did 25 years ago when they were made, they
>still do the same job running the same software. There is simply no
>reason to replace a reliable, documented solution with a modern
>undocumented one.
>
It's not quite the same. All PC components are third-party and thus
there is no guarantee it will work quite right. Are the
well-documented IBM PC, XT, and AT machines better in this sense?
Since you have the manuals, you could probably build your own MDA
card!
>Contrast that to the modern PC. If it fails, you swap boards until it
>works again, never really knowing that you've found the fault. And you
>don't know that the new video card (say) won't behave slightly
>differently to the old one. Seen it happen far to often to want to
depend
>on such a machine.
>
>Problem is, I'm an electronic engineer. So I tend to use computers -
>including old ones - to help with that work. And I'm not afraid of
taking
>a soldering iron to them.
>
>Case in point. 10 minutes ago I needed to examine the contents of a ROM
>chip - an obscure old ROM chip - from a word processing system I'm
>repairing. I've got a special card in an old IBM XT that'll do that.
Not
>hardware hacking per se, though - just a homemade tool to help with my
work.
>
>> >>I'd like to hear stories about how this technology can be applied
to a
>> >>job and does it well. The general slant of the article is to be
>> >>positive, but if anyone has any good stories about failures which
>> >>occurred because you can't do EVERYTHING with older technology.
>
>That is _very_ uncommon. A lot of old machines are in embedded control
>systems, which have been running the same program since they were made.
>They don't stop running it properly just because a new machine has come
>on the market...
>
>And anyway, CPU speed is often needed (for mainstream applications)
only
>to support the user interface. I personally have formatted and printed
a
>200 page manual using TeX/LaTeX on a 386 PC. A 286 would probably have
>done it just as well. TeX may not be user friendly for the new user,
but
>it certainly is friendly to the experienced user who wants a text
>formatter that doesn't get in the way.
>
>
>> >>
>> >>mailto:billakent@hotmail.com
>
>-tony
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
What kind of boards? Was it single-board or backplane or what?
Also, what are the key differences between Hp and PC?
>>I have a bunch of boards that I would like to move to a good home,
>>otherwise I will scrap them out. _ANY_ offers over shipping costs will
be
>>considered.
>>
>>Set of boards for an HP150 system! I am not sure what the processor
>>is
>
> Are you kidding! It's an 8088! It runs at 5 MHz MOL just like a PC.
>Some 150 even had the optional 8087. The 150 was one of those ALMOST
IBM
>PC compatibles. I have at least eight or nine of them and they're all
>working. Most of them are looking for homes. Hint, hint!
>
>(lots of HP house numbers, but I do see an 8041A and 9914A, neither of
>>which are the main processors). I have a motherboard with an jack for
an
>>RJ45 keyboard, HPIB connector, and two RS232 ports. I also have a
board
>>with lots of 4164 DRAMs, another with RAMs and ROMs, another mystery
>>board, and a module that says 3278 interface (HP #45641A).
>
> The 45641 is an optional 3278 Emulation board. It costs $1200 in the
'88
>HP catalog.
>
> If no one wants the boards, I'll take them for the cost of shipping.
>
> Joe
>>
>>William Donzelli
>>william(a)ans.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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I assume you mean the apps. CP/M and DOS are fairly similar
>While I do some of it on PC, more over time there are things I can do
>faster and easier on the s100 crate or even the Kaypro.
>
I don't know
>I do, did you misread?
>
Why do you need an 8" controller? The same floppy controller can be
used for both 5.25" and 3.5". There never were any jumpers for any
MFM drives, nor have I seen much for IDE drives. This has nothing to
do with PCI or PnP. Just set the correct type in the BIOS and that's it
>Why the "if you can plug one in"? Will plug and puke really work?
What
>do you do if it doesn't? What slot does the 8" controller from the XT
>plug into on the PCI only board?
In fact, I am not familiar with any real difference between PCI and
ISA controllers. I have never had any floppy problems. The reason
why I said 'if you can plug one in' is because the 5.25" drives use
edge connectors, unlike 3.5" which use BERG strips (is that what
they're called?). This is the biggest problem one is likely to have.
>
>Keeping in mind I was referring to systems in place and working as they
>have for more years that M$ existed. Any bugs and the like have long
>since been worked out or are at least well known. For someone makeing
>steel parts or whatnot the OS, CPU and all that jazz really doesn't
>matter when his task is to punch holes in 500 pieces a day.
>
>Allison
>
>
______________________________________________________
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I almost forgot to post about this. I recently acquired a complete
Heathkit H89 system, with dual floppies and a small printer (OkiData
Microline 82, serial), all in excellent condition.
I got with it a bunch of manuals and floppies, among them CP/M boot
diskettes. As I recall, this is a Z80-based system, yes? Is it possible to
use a hard drive on it?
Thanks in advance.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272)
(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net)
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own
human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
Can I make use of the Centronics interface? What type of 'serial car'
do you recommend? Can I use my Apple //c w/serial port but w/o CP/M?
>Apple ][ disks don't use standard FM or MFM encoding, so Macs and PCs
can't
>read them. If you can find a serial car for the Apple, the easiest way
>would be to get a copy of Kermit-65 (for DOS 3.3 files) and/or Kermit80
>(for CP/M) and transfer the files over a serial link -- that's what I
do.
>
>Kermit-65 comes with instructions on how to get it into an Apple that
>doesn't already have any kind of file transfer software, and IIRC
Kermit80
>has some similar instructions. You can get Kermit by anonymous ftp
from
>ftp.columbia.edu, or http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/, or from any of
>several mirror sites.
>
>
>--
>
>Pete Peter Turnbull
> Dept. of Computer Science
> University of York
>
______________________________________________________
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On Jul 24, 13:57, Max Eskin wrote:
> Subject: Apple ][ file conversion
> Several months ago, I was given an A][+, with a z80 card and a bunch
> of program, as well as data, disks. It has a printer interface card.
> What is the easiest way to transfer the data on these disks (CP/M 3.3
> various programs, mainly Wordstar 2.x) onto a PC or mac? Is there a
> PC program that will read Apple CP/M disks? I couldn't easily do it
> with a Mac since these are 5.25" disks.
Apple ][ disks don't use standard FM or MFM encoding, so Macs and PCs can't
read them. If you can find a serial car for the Apple, the easiest way
would be to get a copy of Kermit-65 (for DOS 3.3 files) and/or Kermit80
(for CP/M) and transfer the files over a serial link -- that's what I do.
Kermit-65 comes with instructions on how to get it into an Apple that
doesn't already have any kind of file transfer software, and IIRC Kermit80
has some similar instructions. You can get Kermit by anonymous ftp from
ftp.columbia.edu, or http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/, or from any of
several mirror sites.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Several months ago, I was given an A][+, with a z80 card and a bunch
of program, as well as data, disks. It has a printer interface card.
What is the easiest way to transfer the data on these disks (CP/M 3.3
various programs, mainly Wordstar 2.x) onto a PC or mac? Is there a
PC program that will read Apple CP/M disks? I couldn't easily do it
with a Mac since these are 5.25" disks.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
< In general, I hope everyone that prides themselves of running
< Electric Pencil on their Altairs is doing it for practical purposes,
< and not because they just want to show off that they won't use
< a PC.
While I do some of it on PC, more over time there are things I can do
faster and easier on the s100 crate or even the Kaypro.
< A server for what? You must have an Interlnk client if you are using
< Intersrvr, unless you hacked the protocol...
< >
< >I do use an old 386sx/25 as a headless server using MSdos6.22 intersvr
< >and interlnk software and a parallel port data cable(LapLink).
I do, did you misread?
< I would bet that _most_ hackers do it for commercial/industrial
< reasons. FOr everyone who built their own z80, hundreds came off the
< assembly line.
And hundreds more were modified. Very few were built from the ground up
but, many were built from an intermediate state. IE: buy a s100 z80 cpu
>from company A, ram from B, floppy controller from n, floppy from S
and a box from a supplier of nothing but boxes... that constitues a
built z80 system circa 1980ish.
< >documented at best.
< That's an immense exaggeration. P-II boxes a) Have no jumpers, as a
< rule b) can support a 5.25" fdd if you can plug one in.
Why the "if you can plug one in"? Will plug and puke really work? What
do you do if it doesn't? What slot does the 8" controller from the XT
plug into on the PCI only board?
< >size. There are many PDP-8s (1970s tech), PDP-11s (late 70s into the
< >80s tech) and Data General Novas still in service as control systems
< >where they do the same thing everyday as the have for the last 20+
< years.
<
< I agree with that. It's impressive how many people think Windows NT
< is a safer option than UNIXoids though NT is only 1/3 as old...
Keeping in mind I was referring to systems in place and working as they
have for more years that M$ existed. Any bugs and the like have long
since been worked out or are at least well known. For someone makeing
steel parts or whatnot the OS, CPU and all that jazz really doesn't
matter when his task is to punch holes in 500 pieces a day.
Allison
< From: Wayne Cox <wcox(a)mis.usaeroteam.com>
^^^^^^^^^^
Wayne, you fly?
< > It's roughly the same thing as a Zenith Z90. I have the manual here (i
<
< If that's the one I'm thinking of, they started out as VT52 terminal
< clones, sold by Heath/Zenith. The on-board personal computer was an
< afterthought, I think. Former employer had a bunch. You may be able to
< tap directly into the terminal portion if you have need for a plain old
< VT52.
yes it started as H19 terminal, the terminal board is separate from the
H8x/Z9x computer board. It makes a good VT52/ansi terminal. I know I
bought one back in the summer of '79 (H19 hit that is). Still have it
and it still works.
Allison
I have a bunch of boards that I would like to move to a good home,
otherwise I will scrap them out. _ANY_ offers over shipping costs will be
considered.
Set of boards for an HP150 system! I am not sure what the processor
is (lots of HP house numbers, but I do see an 8041A and 9914A, neither of
which are the main processors). I have a motherboard with an jack for an
RJ45 keyboard, HPIB connector, and two RS232 ports. I also have a board
with lots of 4164 DRAMs, another with RAMs and ROMs, another mystery
board, and a module that says 3278 interface (HP #45641A).
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
< Where on the net, i could find the ST506 specification, or something lik
< RD54 OEM-Manual ?
RD54 is a MAXTOR 2190, so try them.
RD53 is micropolus 1325
rd52 is Quantum D540
RD32 is seagate ST251
rd31 is seagate st225
rd51 is seagate st412
rd50 is sugart/seagate st506
Allison
since i requested today off, i hit the thrift stores since i havent been able
to recently. i found a complete TI professional but left it as i presume it's
just an xt clone. found a //c drive in the box, but at $10, i left it. i did
get:
copy 2+ version 9 complete
quark catalyst with disks
prodos inside and out w/ disk
beagle graphics +disk
something called talk is cheap ver 3.1 w/ disk
beagle bros pronto dos/disk
bb triple dump /disk
a book called the dostalk scrapbook which explains apple dos 3.3
epson printer interface for apple //c
apple //c tech ref.
also got a nice pc tower case for $2 after i exclaimed it was blank and
nothing inside. lol.
there were a few more apple manuals and some beagle brothers software called
timeout-something or other, but i left that. might go back again.
david
I have a customer (Yes, Virginia, I have two customers) who has an Epson
QX-10 running CP/M.
His (external) hard disk is reporting bad sectors; he wishes to switch to an
ST-506/412 Vertex 185, which I think is 20 MB.
I would like to test the Vertex 185 under Spinrite (MS-DOS) and expand the
bad track table, if Spinrite discovers more problems.
I have questions --
Will the bad track information carry over under CP/M, and will its format
utility see the MS-DOS info? Otherwise, should we just make a list and enter
it?
Is there a low-level format utility in CP/M? Is it necessary, as under
MS-DOS?
What is the QX-10 controller card going to think of a different hard drive?
Will it try to run the new drive as a 10 MB?
Thanks,
manney(a)lrbcg.com
What do you use now?
>Like the Kaypro 4/84 (ca 1984) that I use to run my billings on.
In general, I hope everyone that prides themselves of running
Electric Pencil on their Altairs is doing it for practical purposes,
and not because they just want to show off that they won't use
a PC.
>
>I have a PDP-11/73 for development and continuation support use. Also
>very handy for getting from Digital Equipment Corp designed and
>propritary media to other more common use media.
>
A server for what? You must have an Interlnk client if you are using
Intersrvr, unless you hacked the protocol...
>
>I do use an old 386sx/25 as a headless server using MSdos6.22 intersvr
>and interlnk software and a parallel port data cable(LapLink).
I would bet that _most_ hackers do it for commercial/industrial
reasons. FOr everyone who built their own z80, hundreds came off the
assembly line.
>
>All people that modify "hack" machines are not all hobbiests. As a
>professional I need for various reasons to read disks created years
>ago sometimes really old like the 8" media from the late 70s early 80s.
>I have old machines to do this but a handy one is an XT clone using a
>modified floppy controller with and old 8" drive. You cannot buy that
>capability now but, companies have archives that are sometimes very old
>that may need to be accessed.
>
>Even your common P-II box is hard pressed to read older 5.25" format
>floppies! At a minimum you would have to find an apporiate drive and
>then by trial and error figure the jumpers out as new machines a
scantily
>documented at best.
That's an immense exaggeration. P-II boxes a) Have no jumpers, as a
rule b) can support a 5.25" fdd if you can plug one in.
What other difference can there be?
>In computers old technology and new are often only different in speed
or
>size. There are many PDP-8s (1970s tech), PDP-11s (late 70s into the
>80s tech) and Data General Novas still in service as control systems
>where they do the same thing everyday as the have for the last 20+
years.
I agree with that. It's impressive how many people think Windows NT
is a safer option than UNIXoids though NT is only 1/3 as old...
> Mature stable systems we know how to use.
>
>
>Allison
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
What is the official meaning of the symbol #?
>BTW, in the UK # is _never_ called "pound". "Hash" is the most usual
>name, followed by "gate" and "hatch". "Pound" means a script L with a
>couple of horizontal bars through it :-)
>
How is 'recall' done? Where is the number stored? As for the
keypad configurations, I'm sure it all goes back to competing
calculator models.
>That's what I was afraid of. Although a neater hack still would be a
>modified dial that did 11 pulses for * and 12 for #. Mechanically
>possible, but I wouldn't want to try and modify the old dial.
>
>There is a blanked-off hole in most type 746 phones that can
accommodate
>1 or 2 buttons, and I was thinking of putting # and * there, but this
is
>more usually used for a "recall" button.
>
>Incidentally, does anyone know why "timed break" recall buttons are
>replacing local earth ones? And how long is the break?
>
>> While a pulse-to-DTMF converter is a neat hack (and these sort of
>> converters were installed in some step-by-step exchanges in the US,
at
>> least there were in my local exchange when we were step-by-step, but
come
>> to think of it I don't know why, unless they were converting my pulse
>> dialed digits to DTMF so that some other adjunct piece of equipment
such
>> as a Dialed Number Recorder could know what digits I was dialing, for
>> purposes of surveillance ;) it'd be easier to just buy a cheap DTMF
phone.
>
>Sam, you should be ashamed of yourself. The object of the exercise was
>not to get a DTMF phone, but to get one with a _rotary dial_. I
already
>have a DTMF phone, and I am interested in thes project _purely_ for
hack
>value.
>
>Slightly less far off topic, does anyone know the reason for the
>divergence in layout between phone keypads and computer ones, i.e.
>
>123 789
>456 vs. 456 ?
>789 123
> 0 0
>
>Which came first?
>
>Philip.
>
>
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Well, folks, here's an opportunity to let it be known that doing a
decent job doesn't always require the latest P-II! This fellow's looking
for quotes from folks who use 'legacy' equipment in production
environments.
Unfortunately, he's not interested in hardware hack type stories. I
kind of dislike his statement of 'if it takes a soldering iron, it's too
complex for this article,' but hey, who knows?
Enjoy. Attachment follows.
-=-=- <snip> -=-=-
On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:34:44 +0800, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc you wrote:
>>From: Bill Kent <billakent(a)hotmail.com>
>>Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
>>Subject: Writer wants to quote users
>>Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:34:44 +0800
>>Organization: None to speak of
>>Lines: 20
>>Message-ID: <35B84722.2B9BEDA0(a)hotmail.com>
>>Reply-To: billakent(a)hotmail.com
>>NNTP-Posting-Host: spoff76.pacific.net.sg
>>Mime-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
>>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!diablo.quiknet.com!csn!nntp-xfer-2.csn.net!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!priori!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!newsserver.pacific.net.sg!not-for-mail
>>
>>Good Day,
>>
>>My name is Bill Kent and I am working on a story for a major online
>>publication. The focus is on users who use what others might consider
>>"obsolete" technology. I would like to speak to a few users who use
>>oder PCs (386 and below) for productivity apps. I'm talking about in
>>business, education, or home. If you use them as servers or something
>>else, that's super, I'd like to hear about it. I'm not interested in
>>hobbyists who just enjoying hacking the machines. If it requires a
>>soldering iron, it's too complex for this article.
>>
>>I'd like to hear stories about how this technology can be applied to a
>>job and does it well. The general slant of the article is to be
>>positive, but if anyone has any good stories about failures which
>>occurred because you can't do EVERYTHING with older technology.
>>
>>mailto:billakent@hotmail.com
>>
>>Thank you.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272)
http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net
Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period.
I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW.
>> BTW, in the UK # is _never_ called "pound". "Hash" is the most usual
> BT tend to call it 'square'. Confused me the first time I heard it.
I've not met that, although I have, come to think of it, met
"Octothorpe" (I think it was in "Understanding Telephone Electronics").
Ironically, the New Scientist article about digital exchanges (1981?)
that called it "hatch" printed it as a square...
(FWIW, "-thorpe" is often found as a placename element in the Danelaw -
parts of England officially occupied by Vikings before the Norman
conquest - and it means village, equivalent to German "Dorf".)
> Cutting the extra 2 slots in the cam would be quite easy with a dividing
> head (no, I'm not offering to do it, right :-)). The problem is finding
> an arrangement of 12 holes in the dial plate that (a) allows you to dial
> all of them and (b) maintains the required pause between letting go of the
> dial and sending the first pulse (this is part of the spec).
You're in danger of making the same mistake as Sam. Remember the pulses
only go to my counter chip, not to the exchange, so the pause after
letting go of the dial is not essential. That said, it is useful if
your finger is shaking as you dial...
My idea was to have a moveable finger stop like on some smaller dials.
This would normally sit quite close to the 1 position, leaving room for
* and # after the zero, but when you dialled against it it would be
pushed to its conventional rest position.
Philip.
PS I'm off on holiday for a week. I won't (intentionally) set the list
to Postpone, but I probably won't read all the messages...
Can anyone give Seth a good push in the right direction? If so, give
him a buzz.
SPECIAL NOTE: John, if you're looking to clear out space in the form
of your PDP-11/34, this could be a great opportunity.
Attachment follows.
-=-=- <snip> -=-=-
On 24 Jul 1998 02:51:10 EDT, in comp.sys.dec you wrote:
>>From: "Seth J. Morabito" <sethjm(a)ricochet.net>
>>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,comp.sys.dec.micro
>>Subject: WANTED: PDP-11 or PDP-8
>>Date: 24 Jul 1998 02:51:10 EDT
>>Organization: Loom Communications
>>Lines: 18
>>Message-ID: <35B82E1E.E7E6755C(a)ricochet.net>
>>Reply-To: sethm(a)loomcom.com
>>NNTP-Posting-Host: motherbrain.squeep.com
>>Mime-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.35 i586)
>>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news.inconnect.com!xmission!news.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!global-news-master
>>Xref: blushng.jps.net comp.sys.dec:2231 comp.sys.dec.micro:262
>>
>>Hello folks,
>>
>>I would dearly love to find a pdp-11 (preferably with some sort of
>>secondary storage, including RX01,RX02,RK05,RL02, or RD53) or, much more
>>preferably, a pdp-8 (original 8, 8i, or 8e), somewhere convenient to
>>the San Francisco Bay Area, California. Software and manuals are,
>>of course, always welcome!
>>
>>Surely, someone must be getting ready to de-commission a system which
>>has served its purpose and is no longer needed? I would love to take
>>it off your hands! I preserve and restore old systems, both for the
>>memories and for the enjoyment of it. DEC has always been my favorite,
>>for sentimental reasons. And I can't bear the thought of any of that
>>classic equipment going to scrap.
>>
>>Thank you,
>>
>>-Seth Morabito
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272)
http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net
Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period.
I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW.
Well, I figured since my glomming on to one of these systems is pretty
much guaranteed, I'd let the rest of you know about them.
My father is one of the managers of the FAA Data Center in Seattle, WA.
He is excessing 12 Data General MV/15000 systems.
As far as I can tell, the systems include:
3 Disk Units
1 RtR 9 Track Tape Unit
1 MPU Unit
1 Console Unit
Mind you, this is a lot of steel to move (I'm prolly going to have a
moving company bring me mine) not to mention store (I'm going to be
moving my entire collection to some cheap office space here in Lawrence,
MA).
For those of you who dont know what the excess process is, this is the
way I understand it.
1. Government agency decides they dont need something anymore
(done)
2. Agency begins porting any applications on system (a month to
go)
3. Agency offers system to all other government agencies
4. If all other agencies refuse system, system goes to public
sale.
According to my father, these systems will be going for a ridiculous
price (like $200-$300, I'm getting mine fer free :) but the buyer needs
to arrange shipping.
Mind you, the data centers are all over the US, not just in Seattle so
it is possible that one will be closer geographically to you.
I'll post another message to the list when the systems are closer to
public sale.
Tony Dellett
< >>From: Bill Kent <billakent(a)hotmail.com>
< >>My name is Bill Kent and I am working on a story for a major online
< >>publication. The focus is on users who use what others might conside
< >>"obsolete" technology. I would like to speak to a few users who use
< >>oder PCs (386 and below) for productivity apps. I'm talking about i
What about non-PC technology? There are whole families of machines that
are not based on Intel cpus and Microsoft software.
Like the Kaypro 4/84 (ca 1984) that I use to run my billings on.
The NS* Horzion Z80 machine I built in 1978 to support z80 family
development and continuation support. That system is my primary for
documenting work done as well.
I have a PDP-11/73 for development and continuation support use. Also
very handy for getting from Digital Equipment Corp designed and
propritary media to other more common use media.
DEC VAX hardware is also widely sought as they despite age and relative
speed are still workhorses for multiuser/multitasking applications. Most
of the more popular VAX systems that are over 10 years old are PC sized
but can support a lot of users.
I do use an old 386sx/25 as a headless server using MSdos6.22 intersvr
and interlnk software and a parallel port data cable(LapLink).
< >>else, that's super, I'd like to hear about it. I'm not interested in
< >>hobbyists who just enjoying hacking the machines. If it requires a
< >>soldering iron, it's too complex for this article.
All people that modify "hack" machines are not all hobbiests. As a
professional I need for various reasons to read disks created years
ago sometimes really old like the 8" media from the late 70s early 80s.
I have old machines to do this but a handy one is an XT clone using a
modified floppy controller with and old 8" drive. You cannot buy that
capability now but, companies have archives that are sometimes very old
that may need to be accessed.
Even your common P-II box is hard pressed to read older 5.25" format
floppies! At a minimum you would have to find an apporiate drive and
then by trial and error figure the jumpers out as new machines a scantily
documented at best.
< >>I'd like to hear stories about how this technology can be applied to
< >>job and does it well. The general slant of the article is to be
In computers old technology and new are often only different in speed or
size. There are many PDP-8s (1970s tech), PDP-11s (late 70s into the
80s tech) and Data General Novas still in service as control systems
where they do the same thing everyday as the have for the last 20+ years.
This doesn't include the tens of thousands of Z80, 6502, 6800
microprocessors in control boxes and other service since the parts were
introduced in the late 70s!
I'll introduce you to an idea new to some. I prefer to use older
systems that are well documented and I can fully utilize. It's saves
me time to not debug some new box or software. Simply said:
Mature stable systems we know how to use.
Allison
In a message dated 98-07-24 07:59:41 EDT, you write:
I guess the 3274 could be called a computer here. it will process information
and if it can do something, it will take care of simple local tasks itself
rather than bothering the mainframe with things the 3274 could do itself.
<<
The 3274 is called a "terminal controller". It is not per se a
computer, although I think it may have had microprocessors and things in
it. The floppy drives were for saving and loading configuration data
(along the lines of Port 1 a 3278, port 2 is a 3299 with 8 3278s hung
off it, port 3 is a printer etc...) It multiplexes terminals and things
to an IBM mainframe channel. While the 3278 and its relatives use the
IBM SNA protocol over 93 ohm co-ax, the 3274 can AFAIK connect over an
ordinary serial line. In which case all you need to do is write drivers
for whatever machine you choose as the host...
>>
> Those $#%&$*^% 800 k disks. There are ways, but I have yet to successfully
>download and transfer anything to my Mac+ . The earlier Mac FAQ straight out
>said it couldn't be done. Likely the easiest way is to find some one to do
>it
>on his Superdrive to a formatted 800 disk.
Or you could just buy a Mac IIsi or similiar for around $50 and do it
yourself.
>The easiest way to do it would be to find someone with a Mac that's in your
>area. BTW I'm not sure you can create the floppies on a PPC Mac, it might
>take a 68k Mac. I had problems with this about a year ago, but I can't
>remember if I was creating Mac, Apple IIgs, or Lisa floppies. The PPC
>Mac's do not seem to handle the floppy drive as well as the 68k based ones,
>I've noticed this with standard Macintosh and PC 1.44Mb floppies.
I haven't had any trouble making 800k disks on my PM 6100. I did have
trouble making a System 0.9 disk on 400k, though (not sure if that's the
PM or the Mac Plus I was trying to run it on, though).
Sincerely,
Tom Owad
--
Sysop of Caesarville Online
Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>
Joe wrote:
> I bought one with a pile of stuff. What is it?
I can do little more than repeat the message I sent on the subject a few
months ago:
John R. Keys Jr. Wrote:
> Well today made up for a slow week, got the following items:
[...]
> IBM 3274-31C with 8" diskettes sofeware
I'm sure you'll have fun with all your finds, but this is the one that
caught my eye.
Last week (?) someone was asking questions along the lines of what the
heck does one do with an IBM 3278?
The answer is, plug it into this. Neither is much use without the
other! I suggest the two of you get together over this...
The 3274 is called a "terminal controller". It is not per se a
computer, although I think it may have had microprocessors and things in
it. The floppy drives were for saving and loading configuration data
(along the lines of Port 1 a 3278, port 2 is a 3299 with 8 3278s hung
off it, port 3 is a printer etc...) It multiplexes terminals and things
to an IBM mainframe channel. While the 3278 and its relatives use the
IBM SNA protocol over 93 ohm co-ax, the 3274 can AFAIK connect over an
ordinary serial line. In which case all you need to do is write drivers
for whatever machine you choose as the host...
Happy hacking!
Philip.
More on my Mac Portable...
Well, I've found out that the Mac Portable doesn't like the System 6
installer disks that I have, so I downloaded the System 6.0.8 files from
Apple. They are in the ".sea.bin" format. What's the best way to get these
images to 800k Mac disks from the PC?
Also, I need a new 40mb drive, the Conner CP-3045 (aka, the HD40SC).
Anyone have one and is willing to part with it?
Thanks.
Rich Cini/WUGNET <nospam_rcini(a)msn.com>
- ClubWin/CW6
- MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
- Preserver of "classic" computers
<<<< ========== reply separator ========== >>>>>
Well, dang it... I'd hoped to have the RA82 subsystem working before I
offered this beastie up, but... I have other projects. Lots of them.
Situation: MicroVAX II in a DEC four-foot rack cabinet, two BA23 boxes
interconnected with the usual bus expansion cards/cables. Has 8 megs RAM,
RQDX3, an RX50 floppy and a TK50 tape drive. Also has a KDA50 SDI
controller hitched to an RA82, and an RD53 70 meg HD hitched to the RQDX3.
And it has a DHV11 8-line serial MUX.
The RA82 passes all its internal tests. The SDI controller passes all its
internal tests. HOWEVER -- the RA82 drive cannot be seen by the SDI
controller. Not in diags, not through the OS. Zilch. I've replaced cables,
tried all three possible floating CSR addresses, changed both SDI boards,
and futzed with the drive until I'm blue in the face. Nada.
It is my belief that the RA82's interface circuitry is misbehaving,
internal tests notwithstanding. I lack another SDI drive to verify things
one way or another.
So, here's the way its coming down. This beastie is up for grabs as of
now. If nothing else, the rack cabinet and cards would probably be useful
to someone. I will continue to work with the RA82, and it will go with the
system, but I'm not going to put a whole ton of effort into it unless
someone on the list comes up with a bright idea.
I'm located in Kent, WA, southeast of Seattle. Please E-mail me if you're
interested and we'll arrange for pickup. NOTE: Unless the recipient is
willing to pay for crating and shipping -- and it will take a pallet and
lift-gate truck to transport safely -- this is going to be local pickup only.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272)
(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net)
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own
human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
I found a strange looking computer today. It's a Grid 1535 EXP computer and
it has a extra pod that clamped on the computer. The pod contains a HP-IB
port. There an empty slot to the left of the HP-IB port, what's it for?
There's also an empty hole roughly 1 x 2 inches next to the power connector
on the laptop. Is that where the battery is supposed to go? I also got a
extra battery pack that also clamps to the outside fo the computer. Does
any know the specs on this computer? It has a co-axial power connector.
What voltage and polarity power does it require? What's the story with the
HP-IB port and how do you access it?
Joe
< I would like to test the Vertex 185 under Spinrite (MS-DOS) and expand t
< bad track table, if Spinrite discovers more problems.
You could but,...
< Will the bad track information carry over under CP/M, and will its forma
< utility see the MS-DOS info? Otherwise, should we just make a list and e
< it?
Depending on the controller used likely no for the Bad block info and NO
for the format.
< Is there a low-level format utility in CP/M? Is it necessary, as under
< MS-DOS?
Maybe, it's generally machine/controller specific. Necessary yes.
General purpose no. REason for that is like floppy controllers
hard disk controler of the era varied from system to system.
< What is the QX-10 controller card going to think of a different hard dri
< Will it try to run the new drive as a 10 MB?
it depends what the controller passes back to the bios and if the bios can
even be reconfigured. FYI: CP/M2 disks over 8mb must be partitioned to
multiple 8mb (or less) logical drives. The file system can only address
65536 128byte logical sectors and up to 16 logical drives.
Allison
I think it's dead.
I plugged it in, turned it on, and the Power light comes on,
about 1/2 second later. regardless of what it's plugged into or
not, the Carrier light comes high.
I have an old style phone, I dialed out rack (I think the modems will
go down to 300 baud...) waited for the 1st ring and shoved it in the coupler.
No dice.
What is one supposed to do with these?
-------
I just picked up an old BellSouth 212A modem, and don't know how to make
it go. It has a handful of pushbuttons on the front (AL ST RL DL HS TLK),
and doesn't respond to the Hayes command set. Am I supposed to dial the
phone myself, and then tell the modem to wake up when I hear the carrier,
like with the old acoustic modems? Any ideas on what those abbreviations
are? I'm guessing HS = "high speed", probably meaning 1200 baud. :-)
And TLK must be "talk". The others have me stumped. Maybe AL is "analog
loopback"?)
Hints would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Bill.
"Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> wrote:
> What is one supposed to do with these?
Way back when, the drill went like this:
(a) dial remote modem's number on phone (as though placing a voice
call)
(b) listen for remote modem to answer and whistle answer
carrier at you
(c) put phone's handpiece in acoustic coupler
(d) acoustic coupler should notice answer carrier and begin
whistling its originate carrier
(e) start typing
I'm thinking that (d) might take longer these days; I don't know
how long it takes these newfangled modems to get around to sending
a tone that is recognizable as a Bell 103 answer carrier. It used
to be immediate because that's what the modems on the other end
tended to try first.
-Frank McConnell
You will LART me for sure because of this question. Is it possible to
use the neutral side of a socket for ground? What, in fact, is the
difference? (dopeslaps start flying in)
>The best way is probably to use a proper isolating transformer. In
other
>words have neither side of the 110V going to the PC connected to earth.
>
>A cheater adapter is also fine, provided you connect the 'pigtail' to a
good
>local earth point. Note that the fixing screw of the outlet (and hence
>the mounting box/conduit) may not be earthed. Should be, but I'd not
put
>my life on it.
>
>> So, why have I never felt anything touching a PC case? I've done it
>> many times, I've touched insides many times, and I've never felt so
>> much as a tingle. Would I be able to use a VOM to find this voltage?
>
>Depends on a lot of things - how well earthed _you_ are (if there's no
>way a current can flow through you, then you'll not feel anything). The
>values of the capacitors used - low enough, and the current will also
be
>too low to feel. In practice, this should be the case, but having seen
some
>cheap PC power supplies I'd not trust them. Oh, and how sensitive you
are
>to the current.
>
>In theory, if you connect one side of a high-impedance AC voltmeter to
a
>local earth point (or, indeed, the neutral side of the socket), and the
>other side to the PC chassis without an earth connection, you should be
>able to measure 55V.
>
>
>-tony
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I have what seems to be a similar problem on my Practical Periph.
2400 direct-connect modem. It can dial, but refuses to pick up the
carrier. Maybe a bad transistor somewhere...
it this the only switch it has?
>[Voice/data switch?]
>Nope.
>But it has a full/half duplex switch...
>-------
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Check out what I just found in the July 27 edition of Newsweek,
Cyberscope, page 11:
Russian Additions
The Museum of Soviet Calculators on the Web (MOSCOW for short, at
www.comcen.com.au/~adavie) will thrill collectors and amuse the rest of
us. "The weird stuff about Soviet machines is what I love," says its
curator, Andrew Davie, 33, a programmer from Australia who owns 15 of the
60 devices pictured at his site. Example: unlike American caluclators
that form all numbers from 0 to 9 using just seven little parts, some
Russian ones use nine.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 07/21/98]
>I'm not sure if this would qualify as classic or not, but I have a
little VLB 486 machine that needs a 32-bit Ethernet BNC NIC.
Hmm, IIRC VLB hasn't been around for 10 years, but I am curious to know
if anyone made a VLB network card, I don't recall ever seeing one. I
have some 486's running miscellaneous NT chores that could use a boost
on network I/O.
Along those lines, and closer to that 10 year limit, has anyone ever
tried to overclock the Cyrix 486DLC or Dr2 replacement CPUs for 386DX's?
Or for that matter, the Cyrix 586 CPUs that fit in 486 sockets? As in
running a 586-120 at a base 40Mhz, upping it to 160Mhz?
Jack Peacock
