>Would you mind privately e-mailing me and telling me who the heck Elmer
Keith was?
Elmer Keith was a well known gunsmith and magazine writer (was it Guns &
Ammo?). Among other things he's credited with inventing the .44 magnum
pistol round (IIRC) in 1955.
Jack Peacock
O'Toole's Rule states that Murphy (re: Murphy's Law) was an optimist.
I'd do a regular backup in anticipation of the inevitable. I had a Mac
SE with a stiction prone drive that finally died after a couple months
of nudging. The heads can only take so much before they are hopelessly
out of alignmnent.
Marty
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: I'm Back!
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 8/26/98 3:51 PM
Well, mine still works. It just needs a nudge once in a while at
boot up. Is it going to get worse or can I use it for a while?
> I agree that there is no cure for stiction but on the older 3 1/2" FF
> HDD's I used to gently nudge the spindle flywheel under the drive
> board. This would free the head of the platter goo and typically the
> drive would spin up and boot at which point a complete backup was
> made.
>
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
>_________________________________
>Subject: Re: I'm Back!
>Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
>Date: 8/23/98 1:25 PM
>
>
> > certain hard drive of mine won't spin up unless whacked firmly
> > against a table? Is there anything I can do? This is a laptop
drive. >>
> >
> > stiction. nothing you can do about it.
> >
> Actually an ex-friend of mine had a technique to 'sticky' drives. The
> theory goes if it's hosed anyway and you need to get data off it, you
can
> do things to it that you wouldn't ordinarily do and what do you have
to lose?
>
> At any rate, I've used it before and it seems to work on X percent of
> drives that are totally stuck (especially ones that won't start up
even
> when whacked). You put the drive top-down (circuit side up) on top of
a
> nice toasty monitor and just leave it there for several days or weeks.
I
> don't know if this loosens up some lubricant, expands whatever's
sticky
> or what but if you take the drive off the monitor and hook it up
> immediately and start it up immediately...occasionally you can get it
to
> spin up and give you your data.
>
> The opposite of this is a drive I had (old Miniscribe 20 meg SCSI)
that
> would run for about 2 hours, overheat and 'shut down' (it wouldn't
spin
> down...it'd just start giving errors and was generally useless). I
knew
> it was heat because I could extend the time-till-shutdown to about 3
> hours by pointing a small muffin fan at it. I had NO money at the
> time...except for rent money I was flat broke...and couldn't afford to
> replace the drive and...seeing how it was 1991 and I live in the
> backwater state of Iowa, nobody would loan me a replacement. The Mac
SE
> it was in was also out of warranty.
>
> At any rate, since it was winter it was cold outside so I wrapped the
> drive in a plastic bag, sealed it up with duct tape around the SCSI
> cable, set it on the ledge outside the window, closed the window
without
> squishing the cable and sealed up the crack with duct tape. Left the
> machine and the drive on for something like 2 months that way (though
my
> memory is a bit rusty there) until I could save enough money for a
> replacement. I was worried about condensation inside the bag but it
> never caused a problem. At one point, the drive slid off the ledge
and
> was dangling by the SCSI cable and power cable but the duct tape held
it
> firm. It ran like that for several days until I noticed it wasn't on
the
> ledge.
>
> On a related subject, I've seen and had several Syquest 40 meg drives
> that wouldn't work and wouldn't work and wouldn't work until you
flipped
> them upside and then they'd work just fine. Not the cartridge...the
> whole drive.
>
> Which reminds me...I worked at a typesetting shop once and a guy from
> another department walks in and tells me he's accidentally formatted
his
> syquest cartridge and is there any way to get the data back? So, with
a
> room full of people who knew better I told him, "Oh yeah...if you just
> flip the cartridge over, that'll run it backwards so that if you
format
> it again, that'll do the reverse of formatting it and you data will be
> back." I figured he'd know I was kidding but he DIDN'T and starting
> walking away to DO IT! I stopped him fortunately and recovered his
data
> with proper tools. Of course, a couple months later he thrashed the
> innards of a $1500 magneto-optical drive by jamming an 80 meg syquest
> cartridge into it REAL HARD. I patiently explained to him that when
you
> hear snapping sounds and grinding metal you're generally doing
something
> wrong.
>
> Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
>
>
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______________________________________________________
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From: "Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: I'm Back!
Content-Type: text/plain
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--
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:33:01 Jeff Kaneko wrote:
>At 10:26 AM 8/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote:
>>
>>> You know, one of the truly cool S-100 8086 boxes that was available
>>> for a long time was the H/Z-100. You could get the all-in-one or
>>> separate monitor configuration, color, 8', 5.25" floppies, etc. etc.
>>> It ran Mess-DOS as well as H-dos (dual processors).
>>
>>Yeah, that is a really cool box. I have one with the documentation and
>>some software.
>>
>>> I lusted for one when I was a kid. The other day I found a pair of
>>> them smashed to bits at a local surplus dealer.
>>
>>I was offered one locally (California) a couple weeks ago but the buyer
>>wasn't interested in selling it at the price I wanted to buy. If you want
>>I can hook you up with him. Perhaps he's interested in going through the
>>trouble of shipping it for the right price.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Well that's just it, isn't it? I mean, if I had showed up two days before
>I could have gotten them (in working condition) for *NOTHING*. It's not
>the kind of thing I'd pay serious money for (even if I had it), but I'd
>surely grab one if it were going to be junked.
>
>The same junk yard also has a Vector and a distressed N* Horizon.
>
D'oh! I'd almost give my left nut for a N* Horizon. As it is, I know this guy named Ken. I'll gladly give his left nut for one.
Tony
-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums
At 10:26 AM 8/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote:
>
>> You know, one of the truly cool S-100 8086 boxes that was available
>> for a long time was the H/Z-100. You could get the all-in-one or
>> separate monitor configuration, color, 8', 5.25" floppies, etc. etc.
>> It ran Mess-DOS as well as H-dos (dual processors).
>
>Yeah, that is a really cool box. I have one with the documentation and
>some software.
>
>> I lusted for one when I was a kid. The other day I found a pair of
>> them smashed to bits at a local surplus dealer.
>
>I was offered one locally (California) a couple weeks ago but the buyer
>wasn't interested in selling it at the price I wanted to buy. If you want
>I can hook you up with him. Perhaps he's interested in going through the
>trouble of shipping it for the right price.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Well that's just it, isn't it? I mean, if I had showed up two days before
I could have gotten them (in working condition) for *NOTHING*. It's not
the kind of thing I'd pay serious money for (even if I had it), but I'd
surely grab one if it were going to be junked.
The same junk yard also has a Vector and a distressed N* Horizon.
Jeff
Well, mine still works. It just needs a nudge once in a while at
boot up. Is it going to get worse or can I use it for a while?
> I agree that there is no cure for stiction but on the older 3 1/2" FF
> HDD's I used to gently nudge the spindle flywheel under the drive
> board. This would free the head of the platter goo and typically the
> drive would spin up and boot at which point a complete backup was
> made.
>
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
>_________________________________
>Subject: Re: I'm Back!
>Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
>Date: 8/23/98 1:25 PM
>
>
> > certain hard drive of mine won't spin up unless whacked firmly
> > against a table? Is there anything I can do? This is a laptop
drive. >>
> >
> > stiction. nothing you can do about it.
> >
> Actually an ex-friend of mine had a technique to 'sticky' drives. The
> theory goes if it's hosed anyway and you need to get data off it, you
can
> do things to it that you wouldn't ordinarily do and what do you have
to lose?
>
> At any rate, I've used it before and it seems to work on X percent of
> drives that are totally stuck (especially ones that won't start up
even
> when whacked). You put the drive top-down (circuit side up) on top of
a
> nice toasty monitor and just leave it there for several days or weeks.
I
> don't know if this loosens up some lubricant, expands whatever's
sticky
> or what but if you take the drive off the monitor and hook it up
> immediately and start it up immediately...occasionally you can get it
to
> spin up and give you your data.
>
> The opposite of this is a drive I had (old Miniscribe 20 meg SCSI)
that
> would run for about 2 hours, overheat and 'shut down' (it wouldn't
spin
> down...it'd just start giving errors and was generally useless). I
knew
> it was heat because I could extend the time-till-shutdown to about 3
> hours by pointing a small muffin fan at it. I had NO money at the
> time...except for rent money I was flat broke...and couldn't afford to
> replace the drive and...seeing how it was 1991 and I live in the
> backwater state of Iowa, nobody would loan me a replacement. The Mac
SE
> it was in was also out of warranty.
>
> At any rate, since it was winter it was cold outside so I wrapped the
> drive in a plastic bag, sealed it up with duct tape around the SCSI
> cable, set it on the ledge outside the window, closed the window
without
> squishing the cable and sealed up the crack with duct tape. Left the
> machine and the drive on for something like 2 months that way (though
my
> memory is a bit rusty there) until I could save enough money for a
> replacement. I was worried about condensation inside the bag but it
> never caused a problem. At one point, the drive slid off the ledge
and
> was dangling by the SCSI cable and power cable but the duct tape held
it
> firm. It ran like that for several days until I noticed it wasn't on
the
> ledge.
>
> On a related subject, I've seen and had several Syquest 40 meg drives
> that wouldn't work and wouldn't work and wouldn't work until you
flipped
> them upside and then they'd work just fine. Not the cartridge...the
> whole drive.
>
> Which reminds me...I worked at a typesetting shop once and a guy from
> another department walks in and tells me he's accidentally formatted
his
> syquest cartridge and is there any way to get the data back? So, with
a
> room full of people who knew better I told him, "Oh yeah...if you just
> flip the cartridge over, that'll run it backwards so that if you
format
> it again, that'll do the reverse of formatting it and you data will be
> back." I figured he'd know I was kidding but he DIDN'T and starting
> walking away to DO IT! I stopped him fortunately and recovered his
data
> with proper tools. Of course, a couple months later he thrashed the
> innards of a $1500 magneto-optical drive by jamming an 80 meg syquest
> cartridge into it REAL HARD. I patiently explained to him that when
you
> hear snapping sounds and grinding metal you're generally doing
something
> wrong.
>
> Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
>
>
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> Subject: Re: I'm Back!
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______________________________________________________
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Dual processors? Another I've never heard of. My 8086 databook says
that up to four can be wired together, but I've never heard of anyone
doing it. Did this particular one work well?
>>> < Someone posted saying that there in fact was a 2.11 which I've not
been
>>> < able to find reference to. By any chance was that what came with
a PCjr
>>
>>> I've seen it on PC xts, DEC VAXmates and S100 8086 boxen.
>>
>>S100 8086 boxes ?
>>Are there still some left ?
>>I never thought they had shown up in a big mass.
>
>You know, one of the truly cool S-100 8086 boxes that was available
>for a long time was the H/Z-100. You could get the all-in-one or
>separate monitor configuration, color, 8', 5.25" floppies, etc. etc.
>It ran Mess-DOS as well as H-dos (dual processors).
>
>I lusted for one when I was a kid. The other day I found a pair of
>them smashed to bits at a local surplus dealer.
>
>It was truly depressing. Timing is definitely everything in this
>game.
>
>Jeff
>
>>
>>Gruss
>>H.
>>
>>--
>>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
>>HRK
>>
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> At 05:15 PM 8/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>> Okay, everyone with a spare IMSAI, let's all get together and have a few
>>> "auctions" on e-bay. How about a reserve of $50K, starting bid at $15K,
>>> $1K increments. That's just for a box, cards are extra.
>>> Jack Peacock
>>I think I should realy try to evaluate the value of
>>one of my Pascal Micro Engines (btw: Has anyone out
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Now *that's* historic! Western Digitals first (and last) CPU effort, the
> first HLL ever implemented as an instruction set on a chip (afaik, anyway),
> rare as hen's teeth (I'll bet it's scarcity is on the order of the Apple I),
> not to mention that it was a *very* early 16-bit system that was actually
> available to mere mortals.
:) - I think there have been a lot of other 16 Bit MPs before.
I'm realy happy that s.o. at least know a Bit about this beast.
in fact, since 12 years (thats when I was glad to aquire my fist
one - it was a kind of dream machine) I just met two people
knowing the name. They are my pride, and no matter who is
visiting my backyard, they always go whoop on ordinary PETs
or Trash's, but when I tell them that these are my number
one items, I get only blank stupid looks :(
Gruss
H.
P.S.: They are two komplete sets (CPU, dual 8" floppy
and terminal) and 2 spare units.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
>> Now *that's* historic! Western Digitals first (and last) CPU effort, the
>> first HLL ever implemented as an instruction set on a chip (afaik, anyway),
>> rare as hen's teeth (I'll bet it's scarcity is on the order of the Apple I),
>> not to mention that it was a *very* early 16-bit system that was actually
>> available to mere mortals.
> I thought the DEC LSI11 (PDP11/03) used a variety of this chip with different
> microcode roms.
Shure, bur the PMS (*G*) utilizes the p-code engine as native
Code - at one time the UCSD p-System was a kind of a ruling
cross platform and cross language standard. The 'p' of p-System
was 'pseudo' not 'Pascal' as most people belive - they had
compilers for Pascal, Fortran, Cobol and Basic - all using
the same p-code engine to run ans all using the same 'OS'.
So to get the system on a new nmachine you just had to write
some low level parts of drivers, and, if the new system had a
different microprocessor, a new p-code interpreter - whoops,
and everything was running.
Cross platform development was an easy thing - write one
application and let it run on PETs, Tandys, CPM/systems,
of coure on APPLE ][s and even on IBM-PCs - oh, did someone
say Java ? *grins*.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
Don Maslin wrote:
>On the other hand, one of the outer tracks - the one that contains the
>directory - is accessed much more frequently than any other. It is there
>that I have experienced the greatest number of failures.
This is true for many operating systems on many computers. Often
in the 70's and early 80's drive manufacturers would put circuitry
in the drives that would randomly move the heads off the directory
tracks after a certain period of time of non-access. (I have
several Kennedy 14" SMD drives that will do this. They have the
nice feature of a clear enclosure so that you can see what exactly
the heads are doing at any point in time!)
Tim.
< > IIRC, you were about to write some code to hook up one of thes
< > parallel-IDE HD kits to a CP/M machine with an EPP. Could this be mad
< Problem is that most of the older 8-bit systems don't have any way
< to read information coming back on the parallel port -- at best, it
< would involve using some of the status lines instead of data lines,
As I may have said off list.
Not all parallel ports on CP/M systems are useable. There are many that
could be configured to be usable, NS* horison, Compupro interfacer
series and even the AMPROLB come to mind for this kind of hack. But
the printerports as they stand on ALL CPM machines are configured very
different from PCs.
< manufacturer to another. It would probably be easier to build a
< ST-506 (or SASI) hardware (with firmware) adapter to IDE than to
ST506 to IDE???? Nah! Direct to IDE has been done already, see TCJ
GIDE project. Some CPM systems can hang SCSI already, my ampro and
SB180 do.
< (Then again, Allison's a lot smarter than I am and possibly a bit
< more stubborn -- I tend to stop banging my head against a brick wall
< when I've barely reached the empty space in the cinderblock).
No, I just know where the hammer and chisel are. ;)
it was a speculative hack to see if I could find the data for how one of
the PP adaptors actually talk... it's a big secret!
Just remember a hacker never bangs their head against the wall. That's
for some one in corperate to do.
Allison
> The H/Z-100's also ran CP/M-85. As some of you know it was a dual
> processor machine (8085/8088). Served well as a transition machine for
> those who had lots of CP/M applications and were moving into the then-new
> MessDos world. I've got two low-profile models (Z-110's, the model
Reminiscent of the DEC Rainbow. ISTR that the CP/M on that would quite
happily execute both .COM files, which it scheduled on the Z80, and .CMD
files, which ran on the 8088. I'm not sure what it did if you
accidentally tried to run a Messydos prog under CP/M, though... perhaps
I should try it someday.
Philip.
In a message dated 98-08-24 19:06:08 EDT, you write:
<>< > Well, it'll fit into the landfill better anyway...
> > Here's a question: what _obsolete_ computer would you choose for this
> > miracle machine, assuming you have unlimited power?
> > My choice would have to be an IBM PC just to vent..
>Which IBM PC? I would most likely choose a garden variety C64. >>
nah, C64 isnt good enough. IBM machines are much heavier and will do more
damage.
I have had a look at the TEK 4052 instruction set against that of the
Motorola 6800. Most of the 6800 instructions are present - the one
exception is DAA.
Tek also introduce 43 new instructions, but I don't know what any of
them do except NOP2 which presumably doesn't do anything at all.
More reading required on my part, but I guess a port of FLEX wouldn't be
too hard provided it could cope with the BIOS, which on a storage tube
machine is bound to be weird.
That said, the Tek 4052 has a far better line editor than many
non-storage environments I've met...
BTW, I've had one request to provide a write-up of my VCF talk for those
who can't get to the VCF itself. Is there any demand for this? Sam, do
you want this for imclusion in a "conference proceedings" sort of
document? It will be difficult, though, to include all the demo program
outputs (must get my plotter working again!), manual pages, etc.
Philip.
At 05:19 PM 8/24/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Does anyone still have that classic cover from an early issue of
>Interface Age? The one where the programmer has just buried a fire axe
>in an ASR-33 teletype.
Speaking of which, anyone else remember the series of ads from (iirc)
SmartTerm that said "Now that you have SmartTerm, what are you going to do
with your terminal?" and featured pictures of converted terminals being
used as a Fishbowl, a Mailbox, and a Dollhouse. There might have been
others, too. I always wanted to do the mailbox bit. Anyone still have
copies of these (or better still, scanned versions?) Maybe I'll see if
SmartTerm is still in business...
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 05:15 PM 8/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> < Someone posted saying that there in fact was a 2.11 which I've not been
>> < able to find reference to. By any chance was that what came with a PCjr
>
>> I've seen it on PC xts, DEC VAXmates and S100 8086 boxen.
>
>S100 8086 boxes ?
>Are there still some left ?
>I never thought they had shown up in a big mass.
You know, one of the truly cool S-100 8086 boxes that was available
for a long time was the H/Z-100. You could get the all-in-one or
separate monitor configuration, color, 8', 5.25" floppies, etc. etc.
It ran Mess-DOS as well as H-dos (dual processors).
I lusted for one when I was a kid. The other day I found a pair of
them smashed to bits at a local surplus dealer.
It was truly depressing. Timing is definitely everything in this
game.
Jeff
>
>Gruss
>H.
>
>--
>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
>HRK
>
> Okay, everyone with a spare IMSAI, let's all get together and have a few
> "auctions" on e-bay. How about a reserve of $50K, starting bid at $15K,
> $1K increments. That's just for a box, cards are extra.
> Jack Peacock
I think I should realy try to evaluate the value of
one of my Pascal Micro Engines (btw: Has anyone out
there one ? ).
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
< Now *that's* historic! Western Digitals first (and last) CPU effort, th
< first HLL ever implemented as an instruction set on a chip (afaik, anywa
< rare as hen's teeth (I'll bet it's scarcity is on the order of the Apple
< not to mention that it was a *very* early 16-bit system that was actuall
< available to mere mortals.
BZZT!!! first the PDP-11/03 is the WD chipset, the alpha microsystems
s100 crate used the same WD chipset. The WD chip set alloed you to create
your own microcode based cpu. It was the only whole computer WD marketed.
The chipset had a basic cpu/datapath and microms that contained the
microcode. So the basic chips with differing microcode could be literally
be different systems. Even DEC had both a WCS and EIS/FIS microm
extensions for the 11/03.
It didn't run pascal it ran the compiled result P-code which was a stack
machine.
Scarce, they did make a few. They were expensive though.
< It was a good idea; but as is so common in this business, the old axiom
< held true:
< No good deed goes unpunished.
<
< I think WD lost their shirt on this one . . .
About right. It's was not cheap and hard to expand. However the sales
of the chipsets to outside producers (DEC and AMS) made them a bundle.
I'd love to see a manual for the chipset and microcode information.
Allison
< > I've seen it on PC xts, DEC VAXmates and S100 8086 boxen.
<
< S100 8086 boxes ?
< Are there still some left ?
< I never thought they had shown up in a big mass.
define big mass. Compupro did a bunch of card all the way to 386s for
s100 as did macrotech and others.
I even have a compupro 8085/8088 box that runs at 10mhz, built at a time
when the xt was still 4.77 or maybe the clones at 8mhz.
It runs CPM80, CPM86, Turbodos, MSdos, CCPM.
Allison
> < Someone posted saying that there in fact was a 2.11 which I've not been
> < able to find reference to. By any chance was that what came with a PCjr
> I've seen it on PC xts, DEC VAXmates and S100 8086 boxen.
S100 8086 boxes ?
Are there still some left ?
I never thought they had shown up in a big mass.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
IMHO, the Sol is the next most important early commercial microcomputer
after the Altair and IMSAI. Although it had 5 S-100 slots, it really was a
single-board computer with built-in 64x16 video, serial and parallel ports,
keyboard, cassette tape interface, and ROM monitor which supported its use
as a serial terminal supporting VDT escape sequences as well as being usable
as a true computer. Cassette-based software included 5k BASIC, 16k Extended
BASIC, FOCAL, PILOT, ALS-8 (Assembly Language System), arcade style "real
time" games (Target, Trek80) as well as BASIC games and 8080 Chess. Its 8"
Helios disk system was expensive and the PerSci drives finicky - which is
why so many SOL users opted for a NorthStar controller and 5.25" drives.
Contact jordan_ruderman(a)supermac.com - he has been compiling an audio CD-ROM
of all the cassette software. You can substitute a portable CD player in
place of the SOL's cassette player, or just dub copies onto cassette (to
capture that ol' time flavor!). Also, if your keyboard is acting flakey, it
may be because the little foam pads inside have deteriorated over the years.
Contact Jim Willing at the Computer Garage http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw for
DIY replacements or he will do it for you. Jim is very knowledgable about
SOLs.
Bob Stek
Saver of lost SOLs
On 25 Aug 1998 22:29:33 GMT, george(a)agora.rdrop.com (George Rachor) wrote:
>I've got a SOL Terminal computer dug out from a pile of stuff I obtained
>from a
>Goodwill several years ago. Unfortunatly there is no disk drive with it.
Ie:
>I don't want to part with it but surely I can do something with it besides
>displaying it. Is there anything I can do with this critter without a disk
>this creature usuable for anything?
>
>George Rachor
>
>george(a)racsys.rt.rain.com
At 05:15 PM 8/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Okay, everyone with a spare IMSAI, let's all get together and have a few
>> "auctions" on e-bay. How about a reserve of $50K, starting bid at $15K,
>> $1K increments. That's just for a box, cards are extra.
>> Jack Peacock
>
>I think I should realy try to evaluate the value of
>one of my Pascal Micro Engines (btw: Has anyone out
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Now *that's* historic! Western Digitals first (and last) CPU effort, the
first HLL ever implemented as an instruction set on a chip (afaik, anyway),
rare as hen's teeth (I'll bet it's scarcity is on the order of the Apple I),
not to mention that it was a *very* early 16-bit system that was actually
available to mere mortals.
It was a good idea; but as is so common in this business, the old axiom
held true:
No good deed goes unpunished.
I think WD lost their shirt on this one . . .
Jeff
I agree that there is no cure for stiction but on the older 3 1/2" FF
HDD's I used to gently nudge the spindle flywheel under the drive
board. This would free the head of the platter goo and typically the
drive would spin up and boot at which point a complete backup was
made.
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: I'm Back!
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 8/23/98 1:25 PM
> certain hard drive of mine won't spin up unless whacked firmly
> against a table? Is there anything I can do? This is a laptop drive. >>
>
> stiction. nothing you can do about it.
>
Actually an ex-friend of mine had a technique to 'sticky' drives. The
theory goes if it's hosed anyway and you need to get data off it, you can
do things to it that you wouldn't ordinarily do and what do you have to lose?
At any rate, I've used it before and it seems to work on X percent of
drives that are totally stuck (especially ones that won't start up even
when whacked). You put the drive top-down (circuit side up) on top of a
nice toasty monitor and just leave it there for several days or weeks. I
don't know if this loosens up some lubricant, expands whatever's sticky
or what but if you take the drive off the monitor and hook it up
immediately and start it up immediately...occasionally you can get it to
spin up and give you your data.
The opposite of this is a drive I had (old Miniscribe 20 meg SCSI) that
would run for about 2 hours, overheat and 'shut down' (it wouldn't spin
down...it'd just start giving errors and was generally useless). I knew
it was heat because I could extend the time-till-shutdown to about 3
hours by pointing a small muffin fan at it. I had NO money at the
time...except for rent money I was flat broke...and couldn't afford to
replace the drive and...seeing how it was 1991 and I live in the
backwater state of Iowa, nobody would loan me a replacement. The Mac SE
it was in was also out of warranty.
At any rate, since it was winter it was cold outside so I wrapped the
drive in a plastic bag, sealed it up with duct tape around the SCSI
cable, set it on the ledge outside the window, closed the window without
squishing the cable and sealed up the crack with duct tape. Left the
machine and the drive on for something like 2 months that way (though my
memory is a bit rusty there) until I could save enough money for a
replacement. I was worried about condensation inside the bag but it
never caused a problem. At one point, the drive slid off the ledge and
was dangling by the SCSI cable and power cable but the duct tape held it
firm. It ran like that for several days until I noticed it wasn't on the
ledge.
On a related subject, I've seen and had several Syquest 40 meg drives
that wouldn't work and wouldn't work and wouldn't work until you flipped
them upside and then they'd work just fine. Not the cartridge...the
whole drive.
Which reminds me...I worked at a typesetting shop once and a guy from
another department walks in and tells me he's accidentally formatted his
syquest cartridge and is there any way to get the data back? So, with a
room full of people who knew better I told him, "Oh yeah...if you just
flip the cartridge over, that'll run it backwards so that if you format
it again, that'll do the reverse of formatting it and you data will be
back." I figured he'd know I was kidding but he DIDN'T and starting
walking away to DO IT! I stopped him fortunately and recovered his data
with proper tools. Of course, a couple months later he thrashed the
innards of a $1500 magneto-optical drive by jamming an 80 meg syquest
cartridge into it REAL HARD. I patiently explained to him that when you
hear snapping sounds and grinding metal you're generally doing something
wrong.
Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
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From: Wirehead Prime <wirehead(a)retrocomputing.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: I'm Back!
In-Reply-To: <57d773ed.35dfd743(a)aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
well, I found out none of the NEC versa laptops are for sale;
apparently some VP is holding onto them for some reason. We have maybe
30 7100/66or80 PPC macs; most with 16-32 mb ram, additional vid cards,
token ring. IIci's, about 15? with 20mb ram each. 6 Quadra 950 servers
with typically 2 300mb scsi drives and between 25-50 mb ram. ummm...
maybe 50? or more DuoDocks, both the Duo 230 or 280, and the Dock. don't
know the possibility status of selling these. several sony video
monitors that are touch screens, accept various inputs, came with weird
computerized videodisc systems.
we used to sell these things as scrap, and paid! them to take them, and
then got rebates for 10cents a pound, or sometimes we ended up owing
them. He is actively looking for vendors to buy, so we could probably
make an offer for pallet(s) since I'm the only one doing any work with
them. I will also do the legwork in my spare time, for this.
However, someone else should be the point man, so to speak... I can't
really get involved. I've tried, believe me. I'll try to do some more
inventory type stuff... But there's alot. Also a whole room full of an
IBM 3480? mainframeish type of thing, with disk boxes etc. looks like a
room full of washing machines...
-Eric
> Know those lame "JoeBob's_Random_Browser_NOW!" buttons?
> I slightly edited one (Yes, this is relevant.)
> Go look at http://makoto.umtec.com
> This is really interesting coming from my MicroVAX...
> I think I'll do a ITS-NOW! button next, with a link to a copy of "The HACRTN"...
36 Bits Now ?
Let me guess - You own one of these nice old BULL minis
using 9 Bit Bytes ?
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
It's a really wacky IC. It's a 68 pin package.
Looks kinda like this
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----------------------------------------------+
| +----------+ |
| +-----+ | | |
| | | R | | |
| +-----+ | | |
| +----------+ |
+-----------------------------------------------+
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Both the boxes are ceramic squares (grey ceramic, like an eprom or
something). The little R looks like a surface mount resistor or cap. The
bigger ceramic square has:
SMS300-1
0002624
001 A 7620 on it
The field of the chip is white with grey zebra stripe lines running to
each of the pins. On the top of the IC is screened:
00020730001C
In gold and on the bottom:
SMS INC 2075-0001
In black.
What the heck is this thing?!?!? I know it's probably an engineering
sample, but of what?
Tony
<On the other hand, one of the outer tracks - the one that contains the
< directory - is accessed much more frequently than any other. It is ther
< that I have experienced the greatest number of failures.
Oh so true.
As mentioned any "open" drive like floppies and older carts the end points
of the travel is more suspect than the bulk of the length.
Allison
< I have a couple of cards that are exactly the reverse of what you plan.
< They are 3.5" form factor, and built by WDC for Compaq. I can only
< conclude that Compaq needed more IDEs than were available at one time,
< early on.
Going from IDE to MFM/RLL is trivial. scrounge up a 100x ATA bus
controller and hang it on. Same idea as the article using the xt 8bit
1002.
The original plan was to figure out the protocal the parallel port
SQ270 (internally ide) disk uses.
Allison
I remember someone asking here about VLB ethernet cards (long time ago)...
So, here: http://www.ahhz.com/dspecial.htm
10 pack for $20 :)
af
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam Fritzler |
afritz(a)delphid.ml.org | Animals who are not penguins can
afritz(a)iname.com | can only wish they were.
http://delphid.ml.org/~afritz/ | -- Chicago Reader
http://www.pst.com/ | 15 Oct 1982
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On <http://webreview.com/wr/pub/98/07/31/frames/index.html>,
Michael Swaine (of Dr Dobbs early days) writes:
>
>When I first started writing full-time about computer
>technology back in 1981, I worked with some suspicious
>characters who have gone on to become legends in their own
>minds. Folks like John Markoff, now holding the New York
>Times to its well-known high standard of accuracy on all
>topics technical, and John Dvorak, ubiquitous curmudgeon
>and loose cannon on the media deck. At that time Dvorak
>was launching a new column called Inside Track, and he
>explained to me the hidden significance of the title:
>
> "On disk platters," he said, "the inside track
> is the least reliable one."
>
>It was a very popular column.
Of which ancient systems was this true?
Today's CD-ROMs are the opposite, I've heard: as the head positions
to the outermost area of the disc, it tends to push dust along the
guides, and many CD drives accumulate a pile of dust out there,
preventing it from reaching "the end."
- John
Just a quick reninder:
Friday August 28, tequilaberries, 6:00pm
Please let me know if you are planning to attend, I'll be there early to
reserve a table.
Francois
-------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the desperately in need of update
Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon
Got it set. I got impatient and used GSETUP31 to initially set the
scrambled date, time and drive types to get it to boot and found the
setup program from Mem-Tel on the hard drive (duh). I copied it off for
future use so if anyone needs it just ask.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
ICQ UIN #1714857
AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN"
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
< > Here's a question: what _obsolete_ computer would you choose for this
< > miracle machine, assuming you have unlimited power?
<
< I'd get out my best documentary camera, place an Altair on the catapult
< and then film you guys trying to catch it. :-)
I'd want to be the one pulling the catapult release. ;)
But, before I did that one it would be a TI99/4a... nice cpu hobbled by a
really bad design.
Allison
The only problem with the TI99/4a would be that it isn't that heavy.
Something like a TRS-80 or something with a CRT would be a little bit more
eventful. Not only do you get the fun, you get the fireworks, too :-)
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
----------
> From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Shame, shame, shame
> Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 10:37 PM
>
> But, before I did that one it would be a TI99/4a... nice cpu hobbled by a
> really bad design.
>
> Allison
>
Does anyone out there know of some sort of gizmo that could be made that
would convert an old RLL or MFM Hard drive to be used with a parallel
interface? I've seen then for IDE, but that's it. I've got a couple of
old HD's laying around that I'd like to put to use, but there's no room in
any of my computers to put them.
By the way, does anyone have any old Apple or TRS-80 external disk drives
that they'd want to get rid of for a few bucks? I don't need the drive
itself. I need the case and power supply and that's it. If they're
TRS-80, I could use the drive itself, too.
I'm also looking for disk-based (and tape-based) software for the TRS-80
Model III. I'm especially looking for the TRS-DOS operating system for it
(floppy got ran over by an office chair *cringe*).
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
At 10:31 PM 8/24/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Yeah, I know a number of musicians using STs in preference to more
>modern PC VESA/PCI sound cards -- there is some program out of
>Germany (dongle protected) that apparently has yet to be equalled on
>Wintel platforms.
Probably Cubase -- which I would be using if a) I had and money, b) I had
any talent, and c) I had any time. Cubase Audio for the Falcon (68030)
offered (iirc) 8 or 16 track digital recording straight out of the box.
Serious digital recording & MIDI for around a grand. (Used Falcon, Cubase,
and a big hard drive.)
Also, there are ST clones available from (iirc) Canada and/or Germany with
fast 68060 processors, tower cases, IDE and SCSI support, true
multi-tasking, etc. The Medusa, if I recall correctly.
And, while we're on the subject, anyone get to the World of Atari in Las
Vegas last weekend?
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 06:20 AM 8/25/98 +0000, you wrote:
>computer flame-war :^)) The Atari 8-bit and CBM newsgroups are still very
>active. They'll be glad to help you get your 8-bits up and running. New
prgms.
>are still being written for them by avid 8-bitters. I have C64 1541 and
Atari
I know a guy who uses Atari 1200XL's (same series, newer version) with
65816 CPU's, internal hard drives, and a connection to his desktop PC to
use it as a big hard drive/CD-ROM unit. Pretty cool.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 06:20 AM 8/25/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> 520ST does indeed run GEM; it's about equivalent to a Mac Plus or so.
>
> Not to start a flame-war or anything but I have a 4 meg Mac+ and there's no
>way it is the equivalent of an ST. The only thing they had in common was the
Well, certainly, a 4mb Mac+ (with what current version of the opsys?) is
going to be faster etc. than a stock 520ST running TOS 1.0. But, compare a
4MB ST with TOS 1.4 (or 1.6?) with "the various add-ons" and I think you'll
find they're pretty equivalent. Vastly different footprints, however,
something that I find rather interesting.
Mind you, a lot more software was developed for the Mac, at least partially
because Tramiel never bothered to advertise the ST (or for that matter,
stocked them in the US.)
> I have friends that use it in live performance and it is still used
>extensively in studios, especially in Europe, tho the Atari Falcon or one of
>it's clones are now preferred because of thier built-in DTD capabilities.
Yep. I got two Falcons just before my mom passed away; Shortly thereafter
I moved back home to take care of my dad and my studio is still mostly
disassembled. *sigh* Someday, however, I'll get it all set up again, and
finish off the album I was working on.
>> The 800XL is an updated version of the venerable 800. Has BASIC built-in
>> and only one cartridge. Nice machine.
>>
> There's a local BBS that uses 8-bit Ataris he even has an Inet feed.
Really? What BBS is that? Our club is running an ST BBS, but we're
looking at switching to either a DOS- or Linux-based system so as to
(someday) get an internet mail connection.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 06:44 PM 8/24/98 -0800, you wrote:
>running. I've got a 520ST, which is unfortuanatly missing the powersupply
>for the floppy drive, and a TT030, both of which are TOS based systems.
>TOS and GEM are related. It's actually a VERY cool system as the entire
>OS, which is a GUI, is in ROM. However, it is a single task system, and in
>my not so humble opinion the interface sucks. Still I think they are VERY
>COOL! I know saying it sucks, and saying it's cool doesn't make a lot of
>sense :^)
TOS and GEM are related somewhat like DOS and Windows are related -- GEM
runs on top of TOS, but unlike windows, you don't really notice it.
There are add-ons and upgrades to GEM that do allow true multi-tasking. A
quick web search should turn them up. I've been happy with GEM as-is as
I've found it easier to run multiple ST's than to keep on top of the latest
and greatest opsys's.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 08:01 PM 8/24/98 -0400, you wrote:
>a semi-functional Wang PC with a splitting maul is very cathartic when
[...]
>Plus it helps keep me from feeling like I need to take it out on my users.
Ah, but there are so many more users than classic computers... and
besides, which is more desirable to have around? 8^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
> Yeah, that's something I always had a problem with, the idea that
> vegetarians are peaceful and meat-eaters are violent without cause.
> Well, my ancestors labored for literally millions of years to get
> me to the top of the food chain and I will not waste their effort.
>
> Of course, that's with animals, who (despite PETA) have no rights.
> As a proper libertarian, I can never initiate force (or fraud)
> against another person. Though if force is initiated against me, I
> am justified in responding with whatever is required.
>Department?
Does that mean that if someone at a hamfest threatened you with an IBM XT
that you'd nail 'em with a C=64 <g>?
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
I'd have to say ANYTHING made by Toshiba - old or new. Although... it'd
probably fall apart before it hits the ground....
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
----------
> From: Max Eskin <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Shame, shame, shame
> Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 6:45 PM
>
Well, it'll fit into the landfill better anyway...
Here's a question: what _obsolete_ computer would you choose for this
miracle machine, assuming you have unlimited power?
My choice would have to be an IBM PC just to vent..
>
>> Plus consider that you could then ask for the smashed machines and
>> restore them. THere is unlikely to be any serious damage except
>> drives and CRTs. You could certainly scrounge the chips.
>
>Max, depending on how large this catapult is, and therefore how high
the
>object goes, an object hurling back to earth at 100MPH would certainly
end
>up in state hardly susceptible to repair.
>
>Sam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>Ever onward.
>
> September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
> See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
> [Last web site update: 08/09/98]
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>On drives that store the same number of bits/track - most floppies apart
>from Commodore and Mac ones, most 'raw-interfaced' hard disks (ST506,
>SMD, RK05, RL01, etc), the inner track has the smallest area storing each
>bit (think about it, the inner track is shorter).
So PC disks are less reliable then Mac and Commodore disks, then?
Tom
--
Sysop of Caesarville Online
Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>
I have recently acquired a Data General Nova and an honest-to-god
Teletype---I think it's an ASR-35. My roommate is furious, but that's
beside the point.
The point is this machine is much older than I am; this is going to be a
completely new (and fascinating) experience. I am 21 years old, and if you
do the math (and if I've done the math correctly) you'll find that the
Nova is 8 years older than me.
I don't want to screw this up. The guy who I got it from knew a lot about
it; he got it in 1982 and used it quite a lot. He told me a lot of stuff
that was important, but I wasn't expecting what I got and was too
overwhelmed to think to take notes.
At any rate, the first thing I have to do is take an inventory, and after
that I think I shall require excruciating amounts of assistence from the
list making sure it's ready to be fired up (and after that, making
sure I can run it properly)---but I know that you all are up to it. (:
Wish me luck.
ok
r.
< Does anyone out there know of some sort of gizmo that could be made tha
< would convert an old RLL or MFM Hard drive to be used with a parallel
< interface? I've seen then for IDE, but that's it. I've got a couple o
< old HD's laying around that I'd like to put to use, but there's no room
< any of my computers to put them.
Parallel interface on what? PCs are the only ones you can count on for a
consistant (sorta) interface. Few others are similar. To go from
parallel (assuming it's bidirectional) you would need something like
a WD1002HDO adaptor and some custom logic and software.
VERY NON TRIVIAL! It would be a fair amount of proframming effort and
hhardware to pull it together.
< By the way, does anyone have any old Apple or TRS-80 external disk drive
< that they'd want to get rid of for a few bucks? I don't need the drive
< itself. I need the case and power supply and that's it. If they're
< TRS-80, I could use the drive itself, too.
Apple and trs80 drives are not interchangeable though the case/PS would
be. I think I still have one with a drive.
Allison
At 05:34 PM 8/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
>It never ceases to amaze me that, when offered an opportunity to
>celebrate in a positive manner, groups of people will choose to smash,
>burn and destroy things instead. If it were some kind of demonstration
Hear hear! I don't get it either!
>Myself, I prefer dancing and singing to celebrate things. What happened
>to dressing up in costumes and building floats and giving away free stuff
>like candy or food?
Well, here in San Francisco, people still do that on holidays... well,
actually, they do that everyday... 8^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
Speaking of Memorex-Telex, could someone please summarize their
history? Just curious, always wondering.
>Got it set. I got impatient and used GSETUP31 to initially set the
>scrambled date, time and drive types to get it to boot and found the
>setup program from Mem-Tel on the hard drive (duh). I copied it off for
>future use so if anyone needs it just ask.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Russ Blakeman
> RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
> Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
> Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
> Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
> ICQ UIN #1714857
> AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN"
> * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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> "On disk platters," he said, "the inside track
> is the least reliable one."
>
This was true when drives were formatted with the same number of sectors
on each track, regardless of position. Because the inner tracks had a
shorter circumference, the bit density was highest on the innermost
track. Now that drives are not directly addressed by
cylinder/head/sector, the number of sectors can vary by track, so bit
density is evenly distributed, outer tracks have more sectors than inner
tracks.
Where you see this limitation was on older MFM and RLL drives where the
controller was not integrated onto the drive itself (pre-SCSI and
pre-IDE).
Jack Peacock
>However, as a sysadmin, every so often I feel the primal urge to "get
even" with the machines that are a constant pain in my arse.
Disassembling
a semi-functional Wang PC with a splitting maul is very cathartic when
things get to that point.
Does anyone still have that classic cover from an early issue of
Interface Age? The one where the programmer has just buried a fire axe
in an ASR-33 teletype.
That's one every TTY user can identify with, watching your listing
slowly crawl across the page at 10 CPS.
Jack Peacock
At 05:34 PM 8/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Myself, I prefer dancing and singing to celebrate things. What happened
>to dressing up in costumes and building floats and giving away free stuff
>like candy or food?
>
>Ah well...
Blame the lawyers and the liabililty laws... (from a one time float
builder and one who remembers when it was actually fun to be in a parade)
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
