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Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Whoops, Holy Grails of Classic PERSONAL Computer Collecting :) I only put in "Micro" to leave out the PDP-1's, etc. -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com] Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:14 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > 2. Xerox Alto Not a micro. > 5. Kenbak-1 Not a micro. > 10. IBM 5100 Not a micro. You need three more :-) -- Doug

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Aquarius Data Recorders

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Well, my whole Aquarius only cost $35 with mini-expander and 3 carts, so I guess I'd go maybe $10 on a tape drive. Kai -----Original Message----- From: David Williams [mailto:dlw@trailingedge.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 1:50 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Aquarius Data Recorders I just received an email from a local group which has 250 new in box Aquarius cassette recorders. They are taking bids but I suspect you can't just buy a few but would have to take the whole lot. I have one but could use at least one more and maybe two and it would be nice to have the box and any doc or cables. Is there any interest in this out there? If so, how much would people be willing to pay? Don't forget shipping costs. Let me know. BTW, "local" in this case is Houston, TX. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw(a)trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com

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VCF Press Clippings

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Any news on the airtimes for the ZDTV and CNET pieces? -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail [mailto:dastar@ncal.verio.com] Sent: Friday, October 02, 1998 9:50 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: VCF Press Clippings Allow me to introduce you to my vanity: http://www.vintage.org/vcf/press.htm VCF press clippings for the past year or so. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98]

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Corrections to trivia

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> In some respect the F8 was like many early parts in that the < > CORE CPU was there but glue was needed to make it all work. < > (8080/8224/8228 for example). < < Yes. Are you arguing that the 8080 is not a microprocessor? Where did you get that idea from. It's a the idea that CPUs don't have to be single chip to constitute a microprocessor/microcomputer. The rest is stirring the pot to hear it clang. Allison

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a collectors grail

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Don't you mean 1801R and 1801S? My early 18xx book doesn't list any 181 Both. Mine do, I have an unusual collection of RCA data books with alot of their loose data sheets as well. I used to call on the RCA microcomputer systems group down Somerville NJ. Allison

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Definitions

by franke＠sbs.de

> So would it be possible to come up with a group sanctioned list of > definitions for: > computer (generic) > digital computer > analog computer > minicomputer > microcomputer > processor > microprocessor > mainframe > Then when we all agreed on what the definition was we could argue 'firsts' > with some sort of logical frame-work. As it is, the discussions read a lot > like: I think the problem is that it's impossible to find a singe and _undisputed_ definition for any of the terms above. Even computer isn't clear at all (just remember Raul Rojas' speak about the Z1), not to mention this when is a microprocessor a microprocessor discusion going thruout the list. > No offense intended, my observation is that many discussions are running > around in circles because the participants haven't agreed on their basic > tenents yet. Same for me, but if we follow the ongoing thread, it will be visible, thats it's less about whats the first of wich ever (unclear) kind, and more about vague concepts and the impact of a certain design. All this firsts and this-but-not-that things operate at borderlines where are no real borders. Maybe there is a 'Uncertainty Principle' of certain 'seem to be exact' terms. Like ordinary physiks, they are usable for every day life, but when (we are) try to define the very finest structur, we have to discover that they are no more usable. Gruss H. BTW: should I call it Frankes Uncertainty Principle of Computer Terms ? (SCNR *g*) (I meet Werner Heisenberg once in 1972 at a speech at our school - quite an notable man.) P.S.: I like Sam's point about regarding unpretended tasks AND is like Doug's idea about (technical/comercial) impact. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but none can either be used as this blade everybody wants to have, since there is no strict this-or-that. I think both are to be considered. A concept without without follow up is not relevant, and if we only look for the (comercial) impact, so anything beside the x86 wouldn't be woth to be remembered ??? The true worth of this list is NOT to get this-or-that thing, it's about aquiering and enhance knowledge on all regarding fields, ideas, concepts, etc. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

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Definitions

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< > So would it be possible to come up with a group sanctioned list of < > definitions for: < > computer (generic) < > digital computer < > analog computer < > minicomputer < > microcomputer < > processor < > microprocessor < > mainframe Pick up a dictionary and use it! These words have a definition that works if used concisely. Then we also need to get group santioned english. Part of the problem is these are exacting terms that are often abused linguisticly. After all it's easity to say X is first computer. Only to be corrected because you didn't say analog, digital, mechanical, electrical, relay, vacuum tube, transistor, integrated circuit, RTL, TTL, ECL, MOS, CMOS, ad infinitum. If this seems nitpicky consider this statement; The norden bomb sight, an analog mechanical computer has it roots in what? If that appears to be an exercise for the inane we are preserving, using, trading, collecting and otherwise dealing with history and in archeological terms what, where, when, who, how are other questions are part of the story. Accuracy and minuniscule details are the essence of an industry that in my lifetime went from the early commercial vacuum tube machines to the 64bit CPU chip running some thousands of times faster. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Historical footnotes are always intresting, but it seems to me that to < pronounce "the F15 CADC was first, not the Intel 4004" is a strawman. W It is if you leave it at first and don't get any more specific than that. the F14 CADC was the first microcomputer system that made fly by wire practical. The 4004 was the first commercially viable single chip CPU. Clear statments that do not conflict but do make a statment that points to their significance. < I'm not denying that Holt produced a CPU, and it may be important in th < history of military computers. It is irrelevant in the history of the < personal computer unless there was a personal computer designed that < included it or a direct descendant. Or the technology that made the silicon possible for later commercial designs. It doesn't have to be the same design. < I think it's great that Holt got his story out. Footnotes always add < depth, but no chapters need to be rewritten. The assuption is they are accurate chapters. ;) the depth is needed to see how the later chapters are significant. Allison

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Definitions

by jsalzman＠hersheys.com

> >Sorry, but an abacus is most definitely digital. >A SLIDE RULE is analog. I stand corrected. > >

27 years, 9 months

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a collectors grail

by allisonp＠world.std.com

As I get deeper into collecting there are systems and docs I'd love to find. Ten of them in no special order. 1. Cincinatti Millichron 2000, 2100 or 2200 based mini. 2. Docs (or copies) for IMSAI IMP48 3. Intel MCS-8 4. Control Logic modules L series (for 8008 based system use). 5. and 8E/F/M or programmers pannel equipped 8A 6. Signetics 2650 based SBC 7. Intel prompt-48 9. DEC 8008 based SBC. 10. RCA 1801/18101 based system eveluation board. (1801 is not a typo). Allison

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Corrections to trivia

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: < > The F8 (NOT the 3870) had bits and piices of the CPU scattered between < > minimum of two chips. < < No, it didn't. The entire F8 CPU was on a single chip. If you added a < chip that contained only ROM and I/O, you had a functional system. Not quite. the F8 cpu (3850) was an incomplete system without the 385x (3851,6,7 PSU). It was very difficult to simulate the PSU in ttl as well. The two ran in lock step just like the parts of the F14 CADC or the LSI-11 with it's MICROMS. The 3870 was the single chip version of the F8. In some respect the F8 was like many early parts in that the CORE CPU was there but glue was needed to make it all work. (8080/8224/8228 for example). I know this from doing comparative design-ins while at NEC during the late 70s. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< We haven't established a precise definition for microprocessor, but wha < you seem to be talking about is a microcontroller, which is a complete < system on a chip (i.e., CPU, memory, and I/O). Ah, your catching on. CPU: central processing unit... says nothing about memory or IO. The CPU is an 8080. Microprocessor: Actually is a systems level concept and is generally refers to the whole box. The Altair8800 Microcomputer. Microcontroller: see above! The IMSAI IMP-48 microcontroller uses the Intel 8035 as its core. The F8 (NOT the 3870) had bits and piices of the CPU scattered between a minimum of two chips. The 1800/1801 did the same as it was too much for one piece of silicon at the time of design. < AFAIK, the first true microcontroller (CPU, memory, and I/O on one monol < IC) was the Intel 8048. BZZT! TI TMS1000 and NEC uCOM4 both predate it. So the F14 CADC is a microcomputer. The LSI-11 is a microcomputer. The Z80 is a CPU as is the 80586. Allison

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Cheap "variac"?

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Today at a local flea market, I picked up a PRO (Made in Taiwan) Soldering Iron Controller. It has a three-prong power outlet and a heavy duty potentiometer for controlling the voltage level of the outlet. The labeling indicates "MAX. 800 WATTS-120 V.A.C." My math tells me that this unit can handle a maximum of 6 amps. Would this be safe to use as a variac on, say, a sparsely loaded IMSAI? It was only a buck. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98]

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Any *really* homebrewing going on?

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I think the number does differ, because a)There is no practical purpose for building a CPU, just curiosity b)Parts like 2901s are not as available c)Kids are rarely going into homebrewing these days d)The dilution is making it hard to get information I'm curious why the HPCC would be interested in homebrew? Or is HPCC a sort of umbrella name for a computer club? At my school, the most calculator-loving person spends his time making a multitasking GUI OS for a TI-92, to look like Win95. I guess interests have changed. >Sometimes I think (hope???) that homebrewing is still very much alive, >it's just diluted by all the PC users out there. I suspect that years >ago, the total number of people who built CPUs from scratch is not that >different from now. > >On the other hand, I have presented a number of homebrew projects at the >HPCC (UK HP calculator user club) meetings and had next to 0 interest. So >perhaps I am one of the few remaining. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Less common ones (Was: Top 10 Holy Grails

by franke＠sbs.de

Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote: > Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com> wrote: >> I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance >> represented on this list. > OK, some here might have Epson HC-20s. (Epson repainted the grey case > beige and removed the Katakana from the keyboard and ROMs to make the > HX-20 a few years later) Well beside homebrews, I could throw in the Microset 8080 (as seen on the VCF 2.0), a Eurocom I or maybe the Pascal Microengine, to name a US build computer. But reflecting the huge amount of 'forgotten' computers, maufacturers and models (not to mention all these zillions of 'different' Japaneese MSX systems), there might be some in everyones collection thats unique within the list. Gruss H. P.S.: are there still some Superbrains out there ? I need docu and system disks, because the disks are unreadable since the 'friendly' visit 4 weeks ago. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

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Corrections to trivia

by Marty＠itgonline.com

I second your opinion. Well stated Sam. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Corrections to trivia Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/6/98 9:23 AM On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > Babbage was not the first to come up with the idea of a computer, but you > can trace the development of modern computers back to him. You can't do > anything like that with Holt's chip -- it had no influence. Maybe there > were other Big Bangs before The Big Bang, but if they didn't create a > Universe, nobody cares. I think this attitude in general carelessly disregards an amazing body of work. In fact, I think people do care. I'm not so quick to sweep historical facts underneath the carpet simply as a matter of convenience. I'd rather know the complete and true story, and not just the easiest one to remember. Furthermore, you are are discounting the AMI microprocessors of the early 70s, which Holt went on to design after the F14 CADC, and the influence those chips may have had on later designs. In fact, you are choosing to go along with the popular history written years ago by a biased reporter that is perpetuated by lazy historians who simply regurgitate the information they read in the last book rather than doing real research and finding out there was more to the story, and that there is history before the popular history. The picture is bigger than the canvas it was painted on. I want to know what was beyond the frame. I'm surprised you have this attitude when on the one hand you'd like to see the HP9830 recognized as the first personal computer, rather than the Altair 8800. By your own reasoning, the HP9830 wasn't the big bang, so who cares? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct06.092339.1767.67943; Tue, 06 Oct 1998 09:23:40 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id GAA20934; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 06:21:02 -0700 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id GAA34038 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 06:20:07 -0700 Received: from mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (mailhub2.ncal.verio.com [204.247.247.54]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id GAA14781 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 06:20:07 -0700 Received: from shell1.ncal.verio.com (dastar(a)shell1.ncal.verio.com [204.247.248.254]) by mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA00943 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 06:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.981006061934.27220G-100000(a)shell1.ncal.verio.com> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 06:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Corrections to trivia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Classic Computer Discussion <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by Marty＠itgonline.com

A BBC series entitled 'Connections,' hosted (I believe) by James Burke was fascinating as it culled a wide range of seemingly disparate and unrelated inventions and discoveries which led to some profound changes in technological progress. It is this 'trivia' that I find interesting especially when an idea laid dormant for years is realized by the advancement of technology. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Corrections to trivia Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/6/98 11:31 AM >> Babbage was not the first to come up with the idea of a computer, but you >> can trace the development of modern computers back to him. You can't do >> anything like that with Holt's chip -- it had no influence. Maybe there >> were other Big Bangs before The Big Bang, but if they didn't create a >> Universe, nobody cares. > I think this attitude in general carelessly disregards an amazing body of > work. I always belives it's a kind of anglo american attitude toward non US (and GB) archievments around the world, but I'm glad to see that it's even comon within. SCNR Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct06.113129.1767.67975; Tue, 06 Oct 1998 11:31:29 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id IAA26860; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:29:16 -0700 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id IAA28166 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:29:12 -0700 Received: from ns.sbs.de (ns.sbs.de [194.112.84.17]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id IAA08793 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:29:11 -0700 Received: from mail.fth.sbs.de (mail.fth.sbs.de [192.129.41.35]) by ns.sbs.de (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA20021 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:34:01 +0200 (MDT) Received: from marina.fth.sbs.de (marina.fth.sbs.de [192.129.41.2]) by mail.fth.sbs.de (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA02855 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:19:11 +0200 (MET DST ) Received: from M23769PP (m23769pp.mch.sbs.de [139.25.241.35]) by marina.fth.sbs.de (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA05980 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:26:16 +0200 (MET DST ) Message-Id: <199810061526.RAA05980(a)marina.fth.sbs.de> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:45:49 +1 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: "Hans Franke" <franke(a)sbs.de> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Corrections to trivia X-Envelope-Sender-Is: franke(a)sbs.de (at relayer mail.fth.sbs.de) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

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a collectors grail

by franke＠sbs.de

> 6. Signetics 2650 based SBC That's one I would also like to get my hands on, since my first computer (homebrew) was using one (supid me, I just throw it away 20 years ago in favour for a KIM). It's rare to finde s.o. today, remembering tis odd but neat pice of silicon. Allison, do you still have docs and/or computers/boards ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

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Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting

by franke＠sbs.de

> Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd make a list of the Top 10 Holy Grails > of classic microcomputer computer collecting. This is the "Rembrandt in the > Attic" sort of stuff. These are roughly in my opinionated order, but > somewhat randomly ordered: > 1. The Altair prototype that was to be the cover photo for Popular > Electronics but was lost in shipment > 2. Xerox Alto > 3. Mark 8 > 4. Scelbi 8H > 5. Kenbak-1 > 6. Micral 8008 > 7. Apple I > 8. An unassembled Altair 8800 Kit > 9. Busicom Japan Intel 4004-based Calculator > 10. IBM 5100 Hmm Breaking down to just 10 is hard, but when it comes to the 'most desirable' ones, I would personaly add at #1 the wooden PET prototype. And eventualy the ATARI-ST prototype boards. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Babbage was not the first to come up with the idea of a computer, but you >> can trace the development of modern computers back to him. You can't do >> anything like that with Holt's chip -- it had no influence. Maybe there >> were other Big Bangs before The Big Bang, but if they didn't create a >> Universe, nobody cares. > I think this attitude in general carelessly disregards an amazing body of > work. I always belives it's a kind of anglo american attitude toward non US (and GB) archievments around the world, but I'm glad to see that it's even comon within. SCNR Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Expander

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Scott Ware wrote: > How about the Expander? It's an S-100 box designed by Lee Felsenstein > that's sort of a cross between a SOL-20 and a TRS-80 model 1, only > Swedish. The only information I've been able to find on this machine is > in Kip Crosby's CHAC interview with Lee Felsenstein in Analytical Engine > 3.2. According to the information in the interview, 200 Expanders were > made, but the order was never paid for, so only "a few" made it into the > public. Lee touched on this at VCF 1.0. He described the project a little bit: how it came about and what happened to it. The VCF 1.0 talks will be available for purchase on tape before the end of the year (I PROMISE!) > http://xtal.pharm.nwu.edu/~ware/collection/machines/expander.html Looks very cool. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98]

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< > Babbage was not the first to come up with the idea of a computer, but < > can trace the development of modern computers back to him. You can't < > anything like that with Holt's chip -- it had no influence. Maybe the < > were other Big Bangs before The Big Bang, but if they didn't create a < > Universe, nobody cares. Prior to Holts chip, the F14 CADC there wer lesser chips. All of them were on a line started in the late 50s with a simple IC of no real usefulness. The little bangs were the devlopment of processes that alloed more transistors to a die, developing MOSFET technology that were more compact and better suited to planar circuits on the die. Things like well isolation all contributed and happend on lesser circuits than a CPU. We are talking about commonly used chips like gates, adders, shift registers, rams and ROMS. Lets face it, the 8008 would have been a burp instead of a bang if the ROM and RAM chips weren't there too! < I think this attitude in general carelessly disregards an amazing body o < work. In fact, I think people do care. I'm not so quick to sweep My whole point. < historical facts underneath the carpet simply as a matter of convenience < I'd rather know the complete and true story, and not just the easiest on < to remember. < < Furthermore, you are are discounting the AMI microprocessors of the < early 70s, which Holt went on to design after the F14 CADC, and the < influence those chips may have had on later designs.

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Corrections to trivia

by pechter＠shell.monmouth.com

Tron was done with a Foonly PDP10 clone. I believe the first microcomputer to run Unix was the DEC PDP11/03 and 11/23 at At&T's Bell Labs (see the papers on mini-unix). Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

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Corrections to trivia

by bill＠chipware.com

So to complete this train of thought, Intel was the inflationary period and Microsoft would be the infinite expansion and eventual heat death of the universe? (Sorry, couldn't resist) -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza [SMTP:yowza@yowza.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 3:51 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Corrections to trivia On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: >I still think the SLF is > a "microprocessor", and quite likely the first even though you think > that's not important (there's gotta be a Big Bang somewhere). The Big Bang was named Babbage. Intel supplied the ammunition for a revolution: cheap computers. The high level of integration was what enabled them to make it cheap, and they commercialized it. The level of integration is the salient feature of the chip, but not the main feature of the important event. Babbage was not the first to come up with the idea of a computer, but you can trace the development of modern computers back to him. You can't do anything like that with Holt's chip -- it had no influence. Maybe there were other Big Bangs before The Big Bang, but if they didn't create a Universe, nobody cares. -- Doug

27 years, 9 months

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Somebody has a C65 on eBay

by lfb107＠psu.edu

At 06:15 PM 10/5/98 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >>> :: >>> ::Somebody's posted a Commodore C65 prototype on eBay. 4 days left and the >>> ::bidding is at $1025. >>> :: >>> >>> That's nothing. The last one sold went for $1400. (!) >> >>Well, how many of these "prototypes" exist? Has anyone authenticated >>these things? > >There was more like an entire production run of them. IIRC there are/were >several hundred of them. Or maybe he's selling a prototype of the ones >that were actaully made. The Commodore A3000+ prototypes sound more >interesting, there are only 3 of them I believe. Still the C65 would have >been interesting. > Yeah, the last estimate I saw put the number at just under 1,000 made in all. You used to be able to buy them from a company that sold C= parts for something like $169. (Or you could fish them out of the dumpsters out on Wilson drive if you got there on the right day.) Word is that they were 65816 based (or somesuch) and looked *sorta* like an Amiga 500 with a 3 1/2 floppy built in. I don't think they were compatible with the 64. Anyways, the CBM FAQ has more info, haven't read it lately. Les

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by allisonp＠world.std.com

The Big Bang was named Babbage. Intel supplied the ammunition for a < revolution: cheap computers. The high level of integration was what No Intel never made a cheap computer. They made CPUs, Memory and support chips. The MCS. MDS, intellect even the SDKs were anything but cheap. < enabled them to make it cheap, and they commercialized it. The level o < integration is the salient feature of the chip, but not the main featur < of the important event. It's everything as the 8008 hit the level of integration needed to produce a viable general purpose commercial cpu. For example why is it that prople are hunting for MARK-8 and Kenbec's when the most likely find (greatest quantity) for 8008 machines is a MCS-8 from intel?!?! This is not unlike the PDP-8. the PDP-8 really wasn't the first small computer. It was the first to be manufactured in large quantities at low cost and that it was a member of a family that spanned many years (PDP-5, 8, 8I, 8E, 8A DECmate). Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Somebody has a C65 on eBay

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Somebody's posted a Commodore C65 prototype on eBay. 4 days left and the bidding is at $1025. Kai

27 years, 9 months

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RSX-11M and CSR's

by healyzh＠ix.netcom.com

Is there a way to get RSX-11M V4.2 to provide a list of CSR's in use on the system? IIRC RT-11 will provide them, but I've not figured out how to get RSX to. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |

27 years, 9 months

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Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting

by H.Davies＠latrobe.edu.au

At 12:10 AM 06-10-98 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >> Well I'd add a Ferranti Atlas for all the obvious reasons. > >I probably should have added some foriegn iron, but I must admit, I am >unfamiliar with it. Certainly some of the big Japanese and British stuff >would count. The Atlas is famous for two important things - virtual memory and timesharing. The Atlas was the first commercial machine to have hardware support for paging and hence virtual memory. A neat timesharing system resulted. I also seem to recall a nice Algol compiler for it too. I'll see if I can remember to check my copy of "Algol-60 Compilation and Assessment" which will have the gory details :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green"

27 years, 9 months

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Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting

by fauradon＠pclink.com

>> I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance >> represented on this list. How about an ExelVision EXL100 I don't think they ever made it to this side of the atlantic. Of course you UK people have a chance to have one but I believe it never made it out of France (except for mine:) As far as the holly grail list: yep one of each would be great. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon

27 years, 9 months

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Homebrewing a classic

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I've been sketching ideas based on a rocker that is threaded on a rod. T Smooth rod with a return spring and seperators between teh switches. < back of the rocker contains a 'paddle' which when the rocker is down, < breaks an IR/detector gap. This has a couple of benefits. One the rocker No question it's more reliable... what about dust. How about hall effect switches? < switch register - what size? Could have 8 to 32 bits if we wanted Number of bits is based on CPU native word size. < I've about half decided to build something PDP-8 like out of PIC chips. < They are relatively cheap, easy to program, and quite fast. I hadn't < thought about using them as base units (microcode sequencer, ALU control < etc) until this discussion began, but it also raised the point of Doable but not many are needed as the 8 series had a single accumularot and the amount of random logic that is not control related is small. < 'emulators' and I began to wonder what if you build a Z80 system that < emulated a PDP-8 with one of these custom front panels. That turns out t < be more of a software effort than a hardware effort. It was done on an 8080 in the mid 70s using a terminal as a text graphics display. < You can get PC boards made fairly cheaply, if you wanted to do a transis < based CPU I would definitely consider having a few hundred 'flip chip' < equivalents made. It wouldn't have to be 1:1 DEC replacements but they < showed it could be done. Wiring up 12 flip flops by hand on a piece of p < board (4 transistors each!) would be extremely painful. Yes it would also the shear number even at a penny(US) each would scare most people as something like an straight-8 used a few thousand. Resistors aren't cheap nor caps so that scales up real fast. Transistors if used would be a good thing for doing a serial machine as they have lower parts counts and few hardware "registers". Not modern silicone transistors do not have close to similar characteristics to the old grown junction or MADT germainium devices so circuit chages would be required. < First, find a 50Amp 5 volt supply. :-) The thing about TTL logic that < always amazes me is how much power it draws. I built a digital PLL out o < TTL chips once (about 40 chips) it was easily drawing 3-4 amps at speed < 74HC logic might be a good compromise here. I've done some heafty TTL designs (one was 200 chips SSI and some MSI) and it didn't need near 20 amps never mind 50. I don't thing the 8E PS can do more than 35A. Besides a simple design is possible without meltdown for heat. < computers called the 'beer budget graphics display' and was featured in < BYTE magazine in the late 70's. Basically this was two R2R D/A ladders < driving the X/Y inputs to an oscilloscope. If you make a 12 bit machine < could build a 4K x 4K resolution display fairly easily. (You will be cor I built it using a 8bit R2R ladder and that is the limit of that design for a lot of reasons. It settles slow (more than 10uS settling time) and the high order drivers to the R2R ladder have to supply some power. A later published design used 8bit moto1408, also slow. Or scale back to 1024x1024. This is known as vector graphics and the real limitation is how many vectors can you draw before you have to go back and redraw (flicker/refresh) which is a fuction of DAC speed, CPU speed and crt driver speed. It was the display common to the PDP-1, and seen on 8s and even some 11s for early graphics. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I'm not sure how useful a definition it is. Why, for instance, isn't m < PDP-8/I considered to be microprocessor-based? It has a multi-chip < processor. So did the IBM 360/30, for that matter. The 8I was a TTL cpu and was a lot of DEC cards interconnected to make a minicomputer. There is no one board, or 15, in an 8I that could be called the CPU or even the core processor. The 8E did reduce that to three cards timing, major registers, major registers control. The dividing line is level of integration. The F14 CADC basically put those three 8E card into one ot two chips. < While I would be the last person to want to downplay the significance o < the F-14 computer, I personally think that the word 'microprocessor' is < only useful if it refers to a single monolithic IC, in which case Ted Ho < and Intel get credit for the first one. Microprocessor is a functional name ie: what it do, not what it are. So in most senses microcomputer and microprocessor are one and the same but not always interchangeable. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Yes, but DEC had a strange definition of 'microprocessor'. They sometime < used the term to mean 'microcoded processor' - as in the microprocessor < board for the DMC11, etc which certainly wasn't a single-chip processor < (it was a hex-height card of TTL). Microprocessor... the RX01 disk controller (drive end) is a board of ttl and proms. It is a micro, meaning small, processor, it performs a set procedure of actions "process" upon data or system (disks and the data for them). The RX01 contains a microprogrammed microcontroller as its microprocessor. I'd think that was clear enough. ;) Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Lisa HELP!

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Help! This is a weird one. I have a Sun Remarketing Macintosh XL (a.k.a. Lisa 2 modified). It has Sun's Parallel-to-SCSI card which runs a ribbon cable out the back of the machine and plugs into the external parallel port. OK, I've heard of such configurations, so far, so good. Problem is, neither the Kalok SCSI hard drive nor the 800K floppy drive spin up when I power on the machine. I pulled out the drive enclosure, and there is no power connected. The Sun Parallel-to-SCSI has a 6-pin right-angle power connector on it. There is a loose power connector in the drive area, but it has only 3 pins on a totally different spacing. What is going on here? thanks!! Kai

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Sam wrote: < > Anyway, the F14 CADC SLF chip can be classified as a single-chip < > microprocessor. I say "can" because you've get a different definition < > microprocessor depending on whom you ask. < < OK, let us know the definition, so that we can decide whether the LSI-1 < chip set also qualifies as a microprocessor. Then we can settle the tri < question regarding which microprocessor-based Unix system came first. Dec sold the LSI-11 and later chip based systems as microcomputers. Source for this is the bindings of not less than 7 databooks and technical descriptions. Also the T-11 member of the family is a single 40pin dip with one die inside. If that werent' the case the fairchild F8 would not qualify as a single chip CPU due to the need for multiple chips and the same would apply to the predecessor to the RCA CDP1802. allison

27 years, 9 months

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Cheap "variac"?

by cmcmanis＠freegate.com

Sam, if you need an example you can go to Halted in Sunnyvale and look on their row next to the test bench. They have a 20Amp 120v Variac on the shelf. It's about 8" around with a funky steering wheel like knob on the end. (they want $350 for it so its probably still there ;-) --Chuck

27 years, 9 months

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Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting

by sethm＠loomcom.com

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27 years, 9 months

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Working PDP-10 anyone?

by bill＠chipware.com

Already looking for next years VCF door prize? -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail [SMTP:dastar@ncal.verio.com] Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 3:33 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Working PDP-10 anyone? Does anyone know off-hand where there might be a complete, working PDP-10 system? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98]

27 years, 9 months

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FW: pdp11/44 free to good home in TX

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 04:34 PM 10/3/98 -0700, you wrote: > >I'm telling you, its the Y2K scare. You'll start to see more and more of >this hardware become available as people start to panic. I'm frightened to realize that you're serious. Great, let's start scaring them even more, to increase our collections. :-) - John

27 years, 9 months

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They still use Commodores in Nova Scotia

by rax＠warbaby.com

Surfing the back alleys of the Internet today, I found an ISP in Nova Scotia that has downloads of Internet access and utilities software for Commodores, Apple II's, and Atari's. Cool. Chebucto Net http://ccn.cs.dal.ca The download page is at http://ccn.cs.dal.ca/Services/PDA/PDA.html -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup.

27 years, 9 months

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Any *really* homebrewing going on?

by CLASSICCMP＠timaxp.trailing-edge.com

>> What you find "bizarre" is almost certainly what I like about them. 12-, >> 13-, and 14-bit wide instruction words, Harvard architecture so that >You've been using them for quite a while if you remember the 13-bit ones. :-) >IIRC, that was the PIC1670 (not PIC16C70!); perhaps there were some other >13-bitters. That was before I started with PICs, though I have the old data >books around here somewhere. I was using them when they weren't even called PIC's, and were sold by General Instruments... -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 9 months

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Homebrewing a classic

by cmcmanis＠freegate.com

Some thoughts on this homebrew stuff... Front Panels: ------------- I've been mulling over the idea of building a "generic" front panel. Clearly there is a lot of resonance with the blinking lights of the PDP-series, the Altairs and IMSAIs etc. However if I did this it would have to be both durable and cheap. Having rebuilt a couple of PDP-8 KC8's I think the rocker over the slide switch can be cheap but it isn't durable. I've been sketching ideas based on a rocker that is threaded on a rod. The back of the rocker contains a 'paddle' which when the rocker is down, breaks an IR/detector gap. This has a couple of benefits. One the rockers are on a rod so they don't have small pins to break off, and two the switch mechanism is optical and thus not subject to oxidation decay that mechanical systems suffer. Of course I would like the front panel to be usable for a variety of hardware designs and that leaves open the question of 'generic' switches. Clearly there are the following switch requirements: Run/Stop Single Step - momentary Deposit - momentary Examine - momentary Load Address - momentary switch register - what size? Could have 8 to 32 bits if we wanted Key switch - Off/On/Panel Lock Some panels adopted a dual action switch for 'examine'/'examine next' and 'deposit'/'deposit next'. Clearly that's harder to do with my simple optical switch. Compound Computers ------------------ I've about half decided to build something PDP-8 like out of PIC chips. They are relatively cheap, easy to program, and quite fast. I hadn't thought about using them as base units (microcode sequencer, ALU control, etc) until this discussion began, but it also raised the point of 'emulators' and I began to wonder what if you build a Z80 system that emulated a PDP-8 with one of these custom front panels. That turns out to be more of a software effort than a hardware effort. Transistor based CPUs ---------------------- You can get PC boards made fairly cheaply, if you wanted to do a transistor based CPU I would definitely consider having a few hundred 'flip chip' equivalents made. It wouldn't have to be 1:1 DEC replacements but they showed it could be done. Wiring up 12 flip flops by hand on a piece of perf board (4 transistors each!) would be extremely painful. TTL Logic based CPUs -------------------- First, find a 50Amp 5 volt supply. :-) The thing about TTL logic that always amazes me is how much power it draws. I built a digital PLL out of TTL chips once (about 40 chips) it was easily drawing 3-4 amps at speed. 74HC logic might be a good compromise here. The use of CRTs --------------- There is a really clever homebrew display that was influenced by early computers called the 'beer budget graphics display' and was featured in BYTE magazine in the late 70's. Basically this was two R2R D/A ladders driving the X/Y inputs to an oscilloscope. If you make a 12 bit machine you could build a 4K x 4K resolution display fairly easily. (You will be core limited in terms of points to plot but what the heck right?) This type of output was featured in several different early computers. Anyway, just some thoughts... --Chuck

27 years, 9 months

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Working PDP-10 anyone?

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Does anyone know off-hand where there might be a complete, working PDP-10 system? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98]

27 years, 9 months

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Somebody has a C65 on eBay

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

SUch crazy people. I think I will re-organize the Governor William J. Le Petomane Gambling Casino for the Insane (formerly the La Petomane Asylum for the Insane) and re-open this establishment as the Governor William J. LaPetomaine Computer Store for the Insane! A new era of lunacy is just on the horizon for the insane computer collector . . . . {Tongue removed from Cheek} On Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Cameron Kaiser <ckaiser(a)oa.ptloma.edu> writes: >:: >::Somebody's posted a Commodore C65 prototype on eBay. 4 days left >and the >::bidding is at $1025. >:: > >That's nothing. The last one sold went for $1400. (!) > >-- >-------------------------- personal page: >http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- >Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database >Programmer >Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 >849 2581 >ckaiser(a)ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 >849 2539 >-- Jesus at a disco: "Help! I've risen and I can't get down!" >----------------- > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

27 years, 9 months

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Internet software for an XT computer

by lfb107＠psu.edu

At 09:24 AM 10/5/98 -0500, Kirk Scott wrote: > > >On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Phil Clayton wrote: > >> I'm sure I have read before that some users on the forum use internet >> software for accessing the internet that will run on old XT running DOS >> (Text only)..? >> Would someone tell me where I could get a copy of this software.. >> Thanks.. >> Phil... > >Phil: > >The program you want is "Nettamer" and you can get it from garbo.uwasa.fi >in the /pc/connect/ directory; filename: n1101xt.zip > >It's great, it was the first program I used to surf the 'Net on my XT! > >Kirk Scott You might also want to check into something called Arachne. Although it lists a 386 as a "minimum," the docs say it should run on any x86 with an EGA or VGA card. BTW, Arachne is basically a graphical web browser with (i think) ppp or slip buillt in. (Runs under DOS too) Les

27 years, 9 months

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Universal drive

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

OK, next question. While I look for weird expansion cards, is there any book that I stand a chance at finding which details the DOS flopy format? >> Hmmm... I don't know of one built commercially, but how about a board >> based round an FPGA (for the non-hardware types, basically a configurable >> chip that you can make just about any logic circuit out of) linked to an >> floppy drive. Oh, and some kind of programmable clock (I don't think >> dividing down a master clock with the FPGA would really do it)/PLL thingy >> to act as a read clock. > >Overly complicated, no (hardware) PLL necessary. Just sample the data from >the drive at a sufficient multiple of the channel code data rate (8x should be >plenty), and do the data separation in software. That way it really is >completely independent of the data format. That's the way I designed my >closed-caption decoder (5x), and it works quite well. > >Note that this doesn't deal with all of the weird Apple ][ copy protection >schemes (like spiral tracks), but it will deal with some of them. > >I have a twiggy disks for the Lisa 1 with a bad sector. I've always wondered >whether hacking the drive electronics to allow software control over the >read amplifier gain and/or data slice threshold would let me recover that >sector. > >Cheers, >Eric > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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CRASH!!!

by aaron＠wfi-inc.com

My mailer crashed and I lost some addresses. A few days ago I asked if anyone needed a 486DX/2 66 chip...uh...if you responded then, please email me again. There were three responses, and I remember that the third one was Uncle Rodger. Sorry for the inconvenience, guys. Aaron

27 years, 9 months

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Qbus card info needed...

by aaron＠wfi-inc.com

Hi all, I got a Plessey PDP-11 clone from John Lawson today and was just poking around at the cards. I thought I'd check to see if anyone had any info on some of the non-DEC stuff in there: 1. Peritek, video board, "VIURAM VRG-Q11" - there is a cable plugged into the 10-pin connector on this one, which ends in a single BNC plug. What kind of video does this output? Any ideas on what kind of display I could use? 2. Plessey, memory, p/n M8044DK and p/n M 8044 DB 3. Plessey, multifunction p/n PM-MFV11A 4. Standard Memories, ???, MM-148 - this board has 4 rows of MCM6665 64k rams and a toggle switch on the handle edge. There are two led's, one labeled "PWR OFF" and one labeled "ON RUN." There is also an 8-position DIP switch toward the connector side. Thanks in advance, Aaron

27 years, 9 months

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PDP-9

by cmcmanis＠freegate.com

Better get a small truck... http://pc.dec-j.co.jp/support/may/dec_jpg/part_1/image/pdp9.jpg At 04:56 PM 10/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >I just talked to somebody that has a PDP-9 that has been in continuous use >(24 hours/day) since 1967! They're finally thinking about phasing it out. >So, I was thinking.... How big is a PDP-9? > >-- Doug >

27 years, 9 months

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Textronix 4025 terminal seen

by mtapley＠swri.edu

All, Spotted a (what I regard as) classic terminal the other day. It was at A-Tex electronics in San Antonio (if your phone book isn't that new, call the Altex electronics and ask for their recently spun-off parts division near the airpont). It was not in good shape - several keycaps broken off, scratched, very dirty, no manual. It was $25 as is, and I had no chance to power up and see how it is. Also the missing manual hurts, because a lot of the very cool and well-thought-out graphics instructions are called by escape sequences that I don't remember at all. If I remember right, the 4025 was Tek's start at transitioning off the long-lasting phosphor technology into a regular bit-mapped display. Istr that it had maybe 2 Z-80's and about 64k of RAM, which was not bad at the time (late 70's to 1980 or so?) for a whole system, to say nothing of a terminal. It had a pair of thumbwheels for cursor control. It felt and looked industrial strength and was a pleasure to use. Anybody remember more useful info about it? - Mark

27 years, 9 months

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