- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by franke＠sbs.de

> http://www.milan-computer.de/html_gb/produkt.html The Machine is already in European Shops since half a year. Last Week they showed the 50 MHz 060 Version at the Atari Messe in Neuss, Germany. 80 MHz is anounced around december. This ist not a back from Grave thing - he is still alive and better than ever. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Looking for -10 software

by mbg＠world.std.com

Would anyone happen to have sources (and maybe even binaries) for EDDT or any programs which come on paper tape for the -10? I, um, er, need to test some code... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 9 months

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Irwin 125 floppy tape drive

by svs＠ropnet.ru

G'day, What software for PC-DOS can drive this monster? Whopping 20 megabytes per tape :) I'll try Linux ftape too, but in case it fails, I'd like to have an alternative. -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru

27 years, 9 months

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kits, definitions, prices...

by franke＠sbs.de

> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> :: Should I hack my Apple-1 to sub in a 99 GHz Pentium for the 6502? >> Wash your mouth out with soap! (How about a 65816? :-) > You mean an Apple-1/GS? Hmm wouldn't give the 65802 the better replacement ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model 100 (was Re: Convergent Technologies workS

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> thrown in. The NEC and Olivetti versions depended on external modems >> I have the Olivetti version - an M10, and the PCB certainly has positions >> for the internal modem components. Now, it would be quite normal for a UK >> machine not to have the modem (our CCITT tones are different from Bell >> tones at 300 baud, and there are different approval requirements), so I >> assumed that the US model had the modem fitted. > I have never read a report or review of an M-10 with an internal modem. > And the magazines that covered the Model 100 _did_ review the Olivetti > and NEC products, but of course those magazines were rather more than > three moves ago (per Poor Richard, three removes equals one fire), but > I do recall that they all had the same Kyocera main board with minor > changes per customer. Maybe no Magazine did review it, but I own an M10 with internal Modem. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Eventual fate of our machines

by franke＠sbs.de

> There's always that issue. I find it analogous to retirement homes in > this area. People 'buy' a retirment home, townhouse, apartment, etc. for > a fixed price and then live there. When they die, it belongs to the > retirement home to sell again. The cycle continues. If you've seen some > of the homes around here, you know they've been around for a while. Part > of the charge funds maintenance fees and lawn care (the latter not being > important for computers). The continuous re-renting of the property > helps keep the available funds around to maintain everything. > I'm not saying that the 'organization' fund for maintenance to whoever > rented the computer, but the concept is similar. The end goal in this > case is to do what's possible to keep it around for the next person. I always fear that 'the organisation' will be put before the mission - in this case profit maximization instead of preserving the past. >>But, if we could keep it to a small and more individual to >>individual base, I'm in. > Do I hear charters? ??? Maybe I lost the thread here. >>> Some of the funding can also be used to provide insurance coverage to >>> members by people who know the value of what's being insured. >>Thats a very dangerous terrain. > I do agree with you. Here, in the state of Pennsylvania, insurance of > any type is heavily regulated. It may not be as bad for other states or > countries. Maybe not - Afaik are insurances around the world very heavy regulated - to keep fraud away and to get enough taxes ... Another possible aproach might be to cooperate with insurance companies. Maybe the same way as for old car collections. At least here in Germany some (smaler) insurance companies are offering very interesting deals in cooperation with Verteran associations. One can get an all included insurance for a USD 200,000 veteran car for less than an minimal insurance for a actual USD 60,000 Mercedes. It just took around 15 years of talks to give them the idea how the collectors handle the cars and whats all this old car stuff is about. There are now even premium insurances where they will pay a complete rebuild of the car, even when burned. Even when a 'new' would be cheaper - and all at an afordable rate - thats exactly what a collector want: keep HIS car (computer) not just one of the same kind. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Eventual fate of our machines

by franke＠sbs.de

Sam: > On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: >> At first, a 'big' collection, like a museum (and I just >> assume there will be in the future some computer museums >> at least the size of car collections) will have already >> more than 95% of your (or mine) collection, counting the >> CPU's, so they only need 5% for display. The rest will be >> surplus or spare parts in best case. >> Second, they will have, for shure, already more computers >> and accessories than they are able to display. So yours >> might never be seen again autside the warehouse. >> Third, (and most important in my eyes) 99% of all of the >> hard to get software and documentation will never go on >> display > But at least it will be preserved for future research, which is important. or stay for some years until decomposed and ready for enhancing the vegetables area of your garden (like the former owner ...) >> Personal I have not decided what to do with my collection >> (althrugh I alredy have a last will where several persons >> are picked to get some parts or to be responsible for the >> distribution). > You mean you don't remember signing them over to me when you were > visiting? Alcohol does that to a brain. (You'd better check your wallet > too.) Of course I remember about our deal. As soun as the USD 100,000.00 are on my secret swiss account, you will get the promise of full and undivided ownership of all my VIC-20 stuff. >> c) sell them among fellow collectors for their real >> value. That means for example 100 USD for a C65 >> or a chicklet PET. > Are we talking eBay dollars or swap meet dollars? Just talkin about what I belive any old computer is worth: a nice talk and 1 to 5 USD or maybe 50 to 100 USD for real ohmigodicantbelive finds. (Just my personal feeling - In fact I pay most time a lot more :() Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Eventual fate of our machines

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Has there been any discussion about the eventual fate of our collections >after we are gone? Well, some supersymmetric (SUSY) theories of grand unification predict that protons will eventually decay. Current experiments put the mean life of the proton at well over 10^40 years, so I'm not too worried myself. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 9 months

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Question: Godbout/CompuPro ram boards

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Well, both the RAM16 and RAM17 use 24-pin 2Kx8 6116 SRAMs, but I checked the tech manuals and there is no mention of EPROM compatibility. The RAM20 was back to 18-pin DIPs, and all the Godbout Econorams I've seen are 18-pin. In short, no clue... Kai -----Original Message----- From: James Willing [mailto:jimw@agora.rdrop.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 10:50 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Question: Godbout/CompuPro ram boards Can anyone confirm this vague memory, or set me straight? I seem to recall that one (or more) of the Godbout/CompuPro ram boards used a 2kx8 static RAM part that had the same pinout as a 2716 EPROM, and could support 2716s in place of some/all of the RAM chips. True or false? And if true, was there any special configuration that needed to be done for the 2716s? -jim --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

27 years, 9 months

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eBay strangeness

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Yeah, an unbuilt kit 4K memory board. Which is kind of neat, but it follows in the footsteps of all the bizarre bare unpopulated Altair circuit boards that have been on eBay lately. Did you notice the PET that STARTS at $575?!? Kai -----Original Message----- From: Bob Wood [mailto:altair8800@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 10:29 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: eBay strangeness Am wondering if it is me or if everyone is experiencing this? Someone has listed an Altair 4k memory board. The eBay item number is 34468468. Whenever I go to this listing, my computer locks up. It has happened every time I have tried since earlier in the day. Only happens with this listing and no others. It seems to happen as soon as eBay starts to download the photo from the seller's web site. I have never experienced this with any other eBay auction. Bob Wood ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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RT-11 on 8" media

by mbg＠world.std.com

>In a box of Stuff, I got 2 cartons of BASF 8".... one of which is >marked "RT-11 V3 System DO NOT OVERWRITE!!!". Congrats... been a while since I've seen one... > All this absurd and useless detail aside... I am wondering if >there is a 'Minimum Set' of files, which placed on a floppy(ies) >would boot a PDP11... and, I am assuming, it would require Sysgenning? It's been so long since I saw a V3 kit, I've forgotten whether it was a version with split monitors and device handlers, or if the monitor had to have the system device built in (and the table for all other supported ones as well). If the latter, than you'll probably need to locate a file with a name of the form RXMNSJ.SYS (for RX01 MoNitor - Single Job). This file, with SWAP.SYS and PIP.SAV and you should have enough to start. You'll have to write the bootstrap on it, which, if I remember correctly, was done with .R PIP *DX:A=DX:RXMNSJ.SYS/O *^C (I don't think DCL was available yet... maybe CCL, but it is clumsy). If the former, then you'll need: SWAP.SYS RT11SJ.SYS DX.SYS PIP.SAV (and the bootstrap, written as mentioned above). > Is there available on the Web this info? There is a faq - I've forgotten where it is located... > Also, I have an 11/73 with RT-11SJ V5.0.... it has an 8" drive. >What would I have to do to make a bootable minimal floppy on this >machine? In other words how few files can one get away with to wake >up a PDP11 with only an RX02 clone as it's mass storage? By V5.0 time, the split monitors/handlers had been long accomplished, and DCL was around, and PIP had been split, so you'll need the following: SWAP.SYS RT11SJ.SYS (or RT11FB.SYS or RT11XM.SYS) DX.SYS (or DX.SYS or DXX.SYS) (plus any other device drivers you want) DIR.SAV DUP.SAV PIP.SAV RESORC.SAV And creating a bootable floopy is as simple as: COPY/BOOT DX0:RT11SJ.SYS DX0: (or substitute RT11FB or RT11XM) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 9 months

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Question: Godbout/CompuPro ram boards

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

Can anyone confirm this vague memory, or set me straight? I seem to recall that one (or more) of the Godbout/CompuPro ram boards used a 2kx8 static RAM part that had the same pinout as a 2716 EPROM, and could support 2716s in place of some/all of the RAM chips. True or false? And if true, was there any special configuration that needed to be done for the 2716s? -jim --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

27 years, 9 months

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Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

I'd also add the apple lisa. In a message dated 10/5/98 5:52:53 PM US Eastern Standard Time, kaikal(a)MICROSOFT.com writes: << ust for the hell of it, I thought I'd make a list of the Top 10 Holy Grails of classic microcomputer computer collecting. This is the "Rembrandt in the Attic" sort of stuff. These are roughly in my opinionated order, but somewhat randomly ordered: 1. The Altair prototype that was to be the cover photo for Popular Electronics but was lost in shipment 2. Xerox Alto 3. Mark 8 4. Scelbi 8H 5. Kenbak-1 6. Micral 8008 7. Apple I 8. An unassembled Altair 8800 Kit 9. Busicom Japan Intel 4004-based Calculator 10. IBM 5100 >>

27 years, 9 months

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kits, definitions, prices...

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

Caution: long-winded blather follows. Read at your own risk. :-) On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: ] ] On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Bill Yakowenko wrote: ] > I learned the definition of microprocessor to be a single-chip CPU, and ] > a microcomputer to be a computer based on a microprocessor. But I never ] > questioned it. Why is that a useful definition? ] [...] ] > I have my own ideas about which things are micros and which are not, but ] > in retrospect, the definition that I was taught is not a useful one; it ] > does not classify things into categories that I can use to any benefit. ] ] Exactly. Naming things is just a way to classify them, to separate one ] kind of thing from another. So, the first time a term like ] "microprocessor" is coined is due to necessity -- a new thing came into ] being and it needed a name. Applying that name to things that follow is a ] convienient way to establish a relationship to the original thing. Must it be things that *follow*? If another company had independently developed a single-chip CPU before Intel, (say they killed the project because some marketer popped in from the future and convinced them that Wintel would eventually kill it anyway) could you not bring yourself to call that thing a microprocessor? Isn't it the thing's physical properties that should matter, and not its intellectual ancestry? You are not a patent lawyer on the side, are you? :-) ] As far as I know, the name "microprocessor" was first given to Intel's ] 4004. It was just shorthand for "this new thing that has a high level of ] logic integration that gives you a bunch of stuff needed to build a ] general purpose computer." Calling anything else a microprocessor, to me, ] is just a way of saying it's a CPU that is in the same class as the Intel ] 4004: general purpose, highly integrated, commercially available, etc. Actually, it is not clear to me now if you consider that the defining characteristic of a microprocessor is that it descended from the 4004, or that it be single-chip. It looks like the only characteristic that a multi-chip implementation partially breaks here is "highly integrated". Then again, a two-chip implementation is not necessarily much less integrated than a single-chip. Now I wonder why this level of integration matters. Is there something that a two-chip implementation can't do, and a single-chip can? Did people really care about this level of space-savings to the extent that it was worth introducing a new word into the language? Maybe the significant bit was that the entire CPU was in specialized VLSI, and not made from parts so small and generic as to be re-wirable into something else altogether (ie: SSI/MSI). I mean, being reconfigurable is not in itself a bad thing, but if you are using parts that are so small and generic, maybe you have not achieved the level of integration that brings big cost benefits. If we count the non-genericity of the CPU chips as being the relevant feature of a microprocessor, then it is just an accident of history that the first things we called microprocessors were single-chip. Suddenly I like that definition a whole lot more than the one I grew up with. I generally dislike it when people try to redefine words for their own (usually political) purposes. But in this case, it seems we don't have a widely agreed-upon definition to begin with, so I don't feel too bad in changing sides. ] If somebody made a two-chip CPU that had all of the other characteristics ] of the Intel 4004, you'd have trouble calling it a microprocessor, because ] it would be missing something. Maybe you'd call it a two-chip ] microprocessor. If it were special purpose instead of general purpose, ] maybe you'd call it a special purpose microprocessor. But once you make ] something different enough from the 4004 that you need to add a bunch of ] qualifiers, you might as well just call it a CPU or come up with a new ] name. Actually, until ten minutes ago, I would have had trouble calling the two-chip thing a microprocessor because it broke the definition I learned as a kid: single-chip. But even the characteristic of being similar to a 4004 is relevant to the extent that you are careful in choosing which way it has to be similar. The first 4004's were probably in ceramic; should that be part of the definition? Probably not. Why did we care about the 4004? Is being implemented on a single chip really the important bit? Or was it cost, ease of use, small size, ...? A two-chip implementation could very well have been important to us for exactly the same reasons that the 4004 was. I can see that explaining why computers suddenly became cheap and ubiquitous could be useful. But the "single-chip" definition of a microprocessor is only circumstantially related to that. If the 8080 and its cousins had actually been multi-chip implementations, things would have progressed exactly the same way. (And pigs with wings *would* be eagles, dammit! :-) ) So, when is it useful to distinguish single-chip from, say, dual-chip? What kind of practical decision would someone make based on that? ] -- Doug Cheers, Bill. BTW, was the 4004 really the first in the Intel series of 4004, 4040, 8008, and 8080? I seem to remember that something in this sequence actually happened in non-ascending order, like maybe the 8008 preceded the 4004, or the 4040 came out last, or ...? It could make sense; you could imagine scaling back an existing design to penetrate some niche market with a cheaper part.

27 years, 9 months

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Help: Identify my board

by oajones＠bright.net

Can someone help identify this board? It has a 8085AH CPU in the A9 socket. On the right the board says "Intel (C) 1977 MADE IN USA." On the back of the circuit board is etched "PWB1001480-03 REV H." If you want to see what the board looks like click on my link below. http://www.bright.net/~oajones/myboard.jpg --Alan -- Computing since: 1982, VIC-20, CoCo, PC, CP/M Military Computers: COMTRAN 10, Nida 250 Amateur Radio since: 1971, WN8JEF, KA6EXR, N8BGR, AA4ZI BASIC, dBASE, Assembly, C++ mailto: oajones(a)bright.net

27 years, 9 months

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Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd make a list of the Top 10 Holy Grails of classic microcomputer computer collecting. This is the "Rembrandt in the Attic" sort of stuff. These are roughly in my opinionated order, but somewhat randomly ordered: 1. The Altair prototype that was to be the cover photo for Popular Electronics but was lost in shipment 2. Xerox Alto 3. Mark 8 4. Scelbi 8H 5. Kenbak-1 6. Micral 8008 7. Apple I 8. An unassembled Altair 8800 Kit 9. Busicom Japan Intel 4004-based Calculator 10. IBM 5100 Kai

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< We have no way of knowing what *would* have happened if Intel hadn't < invented the 4004 or if MITS hadn't invented the Altair, all we know is < what *did* happen. Therin lies the point we do not all know what did happen. There were many things that did happen that were unsuccessful or poorly marketed. < I've never read Intel's versions of the events -- all I have to go on ar < artifacts. I'm not aware of any computer artifacts that support the ide < that somebody else enabled cheap computers to be made before Intel did. By time PCs roamed the earth most of the players had died or were crushed. Intel was a very aggressive vendor even then. They played the you want 8205... then you buy OUR 8080 and 8224 and 8228 or forget it. That was when AMD and NATIONAL Semi and half a dosen other were also making 8080s. If anything it was intels competitors that drive the proce of the chips down so inexpensive computers could be made. Then ther ewas the manufaturers wars pushing the end price down. < etc. That would seem to completely destroy the relevance of the F14 < computer as far as microcomputers are concerned, but it does nothing to < deminish the importance of the 4004. True intel did that with the 8008, then the 8080 then the 8085 and the 8088 and the 80286... < At no point did I mention Intel's long-term success. This discussion al < along has been about the Big Bang that led eventually to cheap computer As a point the big bang nearly killed intel. In the early 80s intel was one of theose giving 10% across the board pay cuts (even managers!) due to the market pressure on them. < computer was the Big Bang. Did I misunderstand you? I'm saying that th It was White Sands, intel was the public display. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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New Finds

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Today I walked into a thrift store and found a stack of Popular Science < Popular Mechanics, and others going back to 1974. I got real excited It was the Popular Electronics January 1975 issue. I still have the copy that arrived at home in the tradition of PE at the time in early December. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Do I have to invoke the magic words "PDP-8" here? :-). Cheap enough < that thousands made their way into high schools in the early 70's, and < cheap enough that several did buy them for use at home. < < You don't need to be a "micro" to be affordable! Thank you Tim! In 1972 I was offered a PDP-8I used (clean) for $2000 I should have save for I'd just bought a new truck ($2100)... Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Apple power supply problems

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< right int he middle of the circuit board. it's still hot several minute < later! thankfully the computer itself is ok although it did reset my mai < computer on the same electrical outlet. provided i didnt destroy the who < bloody thing, what could be causing the problem? Shorted chopper transistor on the high voltage side and/or shorted shorted rectifiers. Allison

27 years, 9 months

1
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Eventual fate of our machines

by jsalzman＠hersheys.com

> >Kind of a life time rental agreement ? >Sounds interesting. This might be a good idea. >But won't the mony winn over the idea ? There's always that issue. I find it analogous to retirement homes in this area. People 'buy' a retirment home, townhouse, apartment, etc. for a fixed price and then live there. When they die, it belongs to the retirement home to sell again. The cycle continues. If you've seen some of the homes around here, you know they've been around for a while. Part of the charge funds maintenance fees and lawn care (the latter not being important for computers). The continuous re-renting of the property helps keep the available funds around to maintain everything. I'm not saying that the 'organization' fund for maintenance to whoever rented the computer, but the concept is similar. The end goal in this case is to do what's possible to keep it around for the next person. >But, if we could keep it to a small and more individual to >individual base, I'm in. Do I hear charters? > >> Some of the funding can also be used to provide insurance coverage to >> members by people who know the value of what's being insured. > >Thats a very dangerous terrain. I do agree with you. Here, in the state of Pennsylvania, insurance of any type is heavily regulated. It may not be as bad for other states or countries. > >

27 years, 9 months

2
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RT-11 on 8" media

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Some Newby-ish questions, if it so please The List: In a box of Stuff, I got 2 cartons of BASF 8".... one of which is marked "RT-11 V3 System DO NOT OVERWRITE!!!". And inside are 7 floppies, each with a DIR printout stuck in the envelope, (and the DIRs look like typical RT-11 files). These disks are numbered 21 - 26 and 30. The other box has no IDs of any kind, save three diskettes are labled 47, 49, and 50. The other 7 are unadorned, but they appear to have been spun... there are faint burnish markings on the surfaces. As an added, extra bonus, there is a listing of an 18-line Basic program which "Determines if One Number is a Factor of Another".... surely an unexpected blessing. All this absurd and useless detail aside... I am wondering if there is a 'Minimum Set' of files, which placed on a floppy(ies) would boot a PDP11... and, I am assuming, it would require Sysgenning? Is there available on the Web this info? Also, I have an 11/73 with RT-11SJ V5.0.... it has an 8" drive. What would I have to do to make a bootable minimal floppy on this machine? In other words how few files can one get away with to wake up a PDP11 with only an RX02 clone as it's mass storage? Bowing before the Silicon Slippers of the Knowledgeable Ones, Cheers John PS: Learning all the time..... TIA!

27 years, 9 months

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Eventual fate of our machines

by jsalzman＠hersheys.com

> >there is no one to carry on the tradition. I shudder to think about the >eventual fate of all of our collections. Do we need a national repository >for all of this stuff? How about a collector's organization which can act as a willed beneficiary for collectors. A board of directors can act in the best interest of the collection should a member (or non-member?) die and bequeath(sp?) his/her computer collection to the organization. Some items can be kept for a museum piece while others can bid for a chance to purchase the remaining items. This could fund the organization. The organization can also conduct interviews with bidders to determine if they are serving the best interest of the computer collection if they get the desired item. A clause can be put in to require the item to be retired to the organization upon their death. Some of the funding can also be used to provide insurance coverage to members by people who know the value of what's being insured. Just my thought, and is well open to discussion. Jeff Salzman >

27 years, 9 months

2
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kits, definitions, prices...

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

Say WHAT?!?!! This requires an explaination . . . . On Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:17:33 -0700 Kai Kaltenbach <kaikal(a)microsoft.com> writes: >Little-known fact: The Apple 1 wasn't a 6502 machine... it was a 6502 >OR >6800 machine. ^^^^^ > >Kai > >-----Original Message----- >From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:ckaiser@oa.ptloma.edu] >Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 3:08 PM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Re: kits, definitions, prices... > > >:: Should I hack my Apple-1 to sub in a 99 GHz Pentium for the >6502? > >Wash your mouth out with soap! (How about a 65816? :-) > >-- >-------------------------- personal page: >http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ >-- >Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database >Programmer >Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 >849 >2581 >ckaiser(a)ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 >849 >2539 >-- Never blame on malice what can be blamed on abject idiocy. >----------------- > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

27 years, 9 months

1
0
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Corrections to trivia

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I've never read Intel's versions of the events -- all I have to go on are >artifacts. I'm not aware of any computer artifacts that support the idea >that somebody else enabled cheap computers to be made before Intel did. Do I have to invoke the magic words "PDP-8" here? :-). Cheap enough that thousands made their way into high schools in the early 70's, and cheap enough that several did buy them for use at home. You don't need to be a "micro" to be affordable! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 9 months

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The PDP lives! To the best of my (limited) knowledge, anyway...

by mbg＠world.std.com

>RT-11 is available on the net at... > >ftp://gatekeeper.dec.com/pub/digital/sim/software/rtv53swre.tar.Z Correction - it is available ONLY FOR USE WITH THE SUPNIK PDP-11 EMULATOR. The hobbyist license which comes with it does NOT permit use on real hardware. >If you find it on media you are permitted to use it as a hobbiest. Again, ONLY with the SUPNIK emulator. It may not even be used legally with any other emulator. Having been a part of making it available on the net, I ask that people not violate the terms of the license... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 9 months

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kits, definitions, prices...

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Little-known fact: The Apple 1 wasn't a 6502 machine... it was a 6502 OR 6800 machine. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:ckaiser@oa.ptloma.edu] Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 3:08 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: kits, definitions, prices... :: Should I hack my Apple-1 to sub in a 99 GHz Pentium for the 6502? Wash your mouth out with soap! (How about a 65816? :-) -- -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database Programmer Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 ckaiser(a)ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 -- Never blame on malice what can be blamed on abject idiocy. -----------------

27 years, 9 months

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Somebody has a C65 on eBay

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

>There's some evidence to suggest that the Lisa is the Apple VI, which raises >the question of what happened to IV and V. I think it would be more accurate to say that Apple considered naming the Lisa the Apple IV. "Lisa" was originally just a code name, after all. Tom Owad -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>

27 years, 9 months

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kits, definitions, prices...

by KFergason＠aol.com

In a message dated 10/7/98 4:41:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, allisonp(a)world.std.com writes: > Not a big secret. It's a fact and there is a jumper on the board for it. > > REASON: > At one point MOS Tech was going to make a 6500 that was pin interchangable > with the 6800 but moto took them to court. the expectation was they would > make one board that could be either 6800 or 6500. > I have read that they did make it, the 6501. And, moto took them to court, etc. Kelly

27 years, 9 months

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Atari returns from the grave

by rax＠warbaby.com

http://www.milan-computer.de/html_gb/produkt.html -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup.

27 years, 9 months

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Apple 1 6800/6502 (RE: kits, definitions, prices...)

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

It's pretty clear if you look at the board. Note 7 in the Processor Section Schematic elaborates thus: "7. Unit, as supplied, includes a 6502 microprocessor, and solder jumpers at both points marked '6502', and has omitted all components shown within the dotted box. If a 6800 is substituted for the 6502 it is necessary to install all components shown, and to break both solder bridges labeled '6502'." The "dotted box" refers to a normally unpopulated area of the board. The components shown within the "dotted box" are just 4 transistors and a handful of resistors and caps. Remember that the 6502 was largely an electrical clone of the 6800 with a different instruction set. Obviously the supplied monitor ROMs wouldn't have run on the 6800, but the monitor source is supplied and could be translated. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 3:27 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: RE: kits, definitions, prices... On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Little-known fact: The Apple 1 wasn't a 6502 machine... it was a 6502 OR > 6800 machine. That is *very* little-known! Either somebody got sold a 6800 machine with an Apple 1 label on it or there needs to be some documentation for this claim! References? -- Doug

27 years, 9 months

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Gemini Galaxy 2 - It works

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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27 years, 9 months

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The PDP lives! To the best of my (limited) knowledge, anyway...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Is there a user group or something akin that I could contact to purchas < RT-11 on 8" floppy? When I flip the "boot" switch, it accesses drive "0 < so I assume it's looking for the OS. The @ is the ODT prompt. If you type a / that prints the contents of the current address and if you enter a number it will replace it. @$n (n=0 to 7) prints a regiters contents and can alter it. @1773000G Start executing at 773000 (octal!) That address is commonly the address of rom bootstraps. RT-11 is available on the net at... ftp://gatekeeper.dec.com/pub/digital/sim/software/rtv53swre.tar.Z That is a unix gziped tar file of RT-11 V5.3. If you find it on media you are permitted to use it as a hobbiest. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Latest finds

by wanderer＠bos.nl

Well, let's see. I got the kit for 50 guilders ($25), which is not a bad price if you ask me for such a near complete kit. As for the moment, I don't have a picture yet, but I could scan a picture from one of the manuals. Unfortunately it's not fore sale, but if someone want's to exchange it for a KIM-1, I could be tempted, or somewone would like to pay me mega $$$$ (maybe someone at eBay :-) ) Some more info about the board, it's labelled PWB 10010505 Rev C and has a copyright of 1976. The manuals have various dates, they are : Product Description book, dated January 1979, Assambly Language Reference Card, dated March 1979, MCS-80/85 Family User's Manual, dated October 1979, 8080/8085 Assembly Language Programming Manual dated 1977,1978, 197 SDK-85 System Design Kit User's Manual, dated 1978 Regards, Ed BTW, the guy who sold this also had 3 handheld terminals sets which doe work on CP/M. He also had 3 matching printers, 2 software development kits for the PC (has a Z80 processor on an ISA board), and 1 docking station. Apparently these sets were used f.e. as barcode readers, as the terminal could be equipped with a optical pen. -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer(a)bos.nl | Europarlementariers: http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | zakkenvullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates!

27 years, 9 months

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Eventual fate of our machines

by franke＠sbs.de

> Phase one: Active procurement (Present state) > My collection currently exists in a very unorganized state in my > basement. I have no real inventory list. :) > Phase two: Active display > Fully inventoried with a list of what works and what doesn't. > We've discussed the possiblity of setting up some sort of cybercafe to > help pay for maintaining the collection. Good idea - I have to mark your place for my next visit. Surfing on an Altair ... > Phase three: Finding the collection a new home (After I'm gone) > This is the tough one. In the wrong hands the collection might > just go to a landfill and that would be a real shame. I have no kids so > there is no one to carry on the tradition. I shudder to think about the > eventual fate of all of our collections. Do we need a national repository > for all of this stuff? National Repository ? Like a landfill at Mt. Rushmore ? Serious: I think it's a) mor than just a 'national' issue, and b) giving your legacy to any kind of 'big' museum / collection wouldn't be better than auctioning every single piece for maximum profit (for the heir). Let me explane the last one. At first, a 'big' collection, like a museum (and I just assume there will be in the future some computer museums at least the size of car collections) will have already more than 95% of your (or mine) collection, counting the CPU's, so they only need 5% for display. The rest will be surplus or spare parts in best case. Second, they will have, for shure, already more computers and accessories than they are able to display. So yours might never be seen again autside the warehouse. Third, (and most important in my eyes) 99% of all of the hard to get software and documentation will never go on display And last but not least, even if one of your computers get on display, they might refurbisch in a way you would never liked - removing stickers, that you saved as a sign of Zeitgeist of this machine, or even canibalise it for display. For example: The Deutsches Museum in Munich has a quite astonishing collection of old machinery on display, but compared to what they have in storeage, it's like showing a Apple Mac Plus as a representiv for everything Apple produced - from Apple 1 until Newton ... - Even for old Computers: they have a quite impressive collection of uP based Computers, but just an PET and an IBM-PC on display (within more than 5000 sq ft computer display). (To be honest, every of the things above can happen also with smaler collectors, but I think they are more likely for big collections/mueseum.) Personal I have not decided what to do with my collection (althrugh I alredy have a last will where several persons are picked to get some parts or to be responsible for the distribution). Possible ways where I feel comfortable are: a) Let 'em all on auction after my death for maximum money. b) Pick people for every parst to inherit to. c) sell them among fellow collectors for their real value. That means for example 100 USD for a C65 or a chicklet PET. d) If I ever will archive my own museum, building a base, where inheritance is no question, because it exists on it's own behalf. The idea behind b) and c) is just to give them to people who don't want them pure for the market (ePay) value, but for the thing itself. c) has an advantage, because I belive buying is better than getting a gift. In fact, if I haggle for an Apple 1 at 100 USD it's more fun than getting the computer for free (dont get me wrong - I wouldn't deny any free computer :). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< What about... < ...the KIM-1? (1976, 6502) < ...the JOLT? (1975, 6502) < ...the COSMAC ELF? (1975) < ...the SWTPc 6800? (1975, 6800) The cosmac elf was the august 1976 cover of Popular Electronics. The key here was the 8080 predates the Altair by over a year but within 1 year of the 8080 introduction there would be a slew of new CPUs many lower cost. The 6502 was the knee breaker! After that there would be the COSMAC-1802, SC/MP, and a truckload of others. < > this fact if, say, TI engineers had actually produced a microprocesso < > before Intel. The important "firsts" in documenting the personal comp < > revolution are commercialization, availability, and price. < < That certainly doesn't tell the whole story. The only thing this type o < historical "documentation" serves is a company's marketing efforts. They did in essence, TI brought us the calculator chip before intel with the 4004. The difference that is significant is the same number of gates were applied as a generalized programable system... That was important. The however is that TI1000 was the same time nearly. < imposed on the product. The CADC shows that much more was possible tha < was previously believed for that early era in microprocessor history. < That's significant, and relevant. The CADC also attacked the specialized vs programmable before intel. < I don't think chapters need to be re-written either. A whole NEW chapte < needs to be added.

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Yes, I would like to find a "Intellec 8", I think the same as a MCS-8, t < (Intel seems to use the term "MCS-8" very loosely in the literature I ha < There was also a single board computer, Sim8-01 with 2k bytes EPROM and < byte ram. It could be used with a MP7 EPROM (1702A) programmer. MCS-8 is the SIM8-01, I still have the manual for it. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Top 10 sins of a computer scrapper

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Where were you guys 4 years ago? I'm really sorry for my part.It is real < hard to figure out what is collectable, particularly if you don't recogn Here in MA doing what I do now. I collect stuff I've used to would like to have but couldn't afford back then. Much of it is pseudo collectable, IE: I collect it but that does not assume it has any value other than I'd like to set it up and actually run it. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< major an impact the military has played on computers. The ENIAC, < F14CADC, DEC Alpha, and other stuff I'm sure can all be attributed < to the pentagon. While the military was a prime consumer of advaced technoology and even fostered some, how the hell did DEC Alpha get in there? Alpha was developed by DEC as an answer to what to do to create the next generation of better than VAX machines (they were betting the farm on it too!). It was the exact thing DEC was doing when they developed the VAX to better the PDP-11. < And _that_ is significant because instead of saying that the computer < is a triumph of enterpreneurs and daring capitalists, we can _also_ < say that it is a triumph of America's great war machine. political crock unfortunatly. Most of the developments were actually driven trying to be better than that competition. At that time you had AMD, AMI, Intel Fairchild, RCA, Signetics, TI, motorola, MOS technology, SMC and that's only the few. That commercial space battle was far higher pitched and far longer lasting than any war. Also if anything any of the guys here that were in the military will tell you while the F14 CADC or other hardware were at one time advaced they also tended to stay in service for many years after the commercial space caught up and passed it! Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Unknown Apple II Card / TRS-80 Model II

by pb0aia＠iaehv.nl

You can add these TRS-80 Model II links to your page: http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/modelii.html http://www.kjsl.com/trs80/trsother.html http://www.ncsc.dni.us/fun/user/tcc/cmuseum/trs80_m2.htm http://www.sincom.com/~jandtbos/model2.html I'm not sure about the last one, it doesn't seem to work anymore. Kees -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org Computer Home page - http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/ Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered

27 years, 9 months

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Unknown Apple II Card

by dlw＠trailingedge.com

I have an unknown interface card for the Apple ][. At least I think it is for a II. It has a 50 pin connector down the front of the card. "REV E" and "SCI Typ. 1A" dated "Jan 24 '85" printed on the card. An EPROM with 8443EPP AM2732ADC Copyright 1983 AMD printed on it. That's all I can find printed on the card. Any ideas? For those who can handle images, there are a couple at: http://www.trailingedge.com/~dlw/comp/images/acard1.jpg http://www.trailingedge.com/~dlw/comp/images/acard2.jpg Not the best pictures but I have the camera here right now and may take some closeups of the board and chips. Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw(a)trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com

27 years, 9 months

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Eventual fate of our machines

by franke＠sbs.de

> The Radio History Society http://www.radiohistory.org/ is an IRS > 501(c)(3) organization which can provide donors with a tax deduction. > A single friend of mine has decided that he will donate much of his > collection to RHS when he passes on as nobody in his family is > interested in old radio. > Anyway, I'd imagine CHAC and other organizations can offer help in > directing people to good homes for their gear. I don't think it's just about the givin'way thing. There are dozens of organisations out there were a computer collection wouldn't be rejected, it's about doing something where one could have at least a strong belive that they will act realy in favour for the collection items, and see them at leas a bit the way we see our'babys' - as something special. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Eventual fate of our machines

by franke＠sbs.de

>>there is no one to carry on the tradition. I shudder to think about the >>eventual fate of all of our collections. Do we need a national repository >>for all of this stuff? > How about a collector's organization which can act as a willed > beneficiary for collectors. A board of directors can act in the best > interest of the collection should a member (or non-member?) die and > bequeath(sp?) his/her computer collection to the organization. Some > items can be kept for a museum piece while others can bid for a chance > to purchase the remaining items. This could fund the organization. The > organization can also conduct interviews with bidders to determine if > they are serving the best interest of the computer collection if they > get the desired item. A clause can be put in to require the item to be > retired to the organization upon their death. Kind of a life time rental agreement ? Sounds interesting. This might be a good idea. But won't the mony winn over the idea ? Altrough I belive, that certain organisations, like government, unions, etc. are neccersary, I dislike most organisations, since every one of them tends soon to put the organisation itself on top of the mission. The organisation becomes the mission instead of serving it. This is especialy true for (so called) privat (NGO) organisations without true public control. The process is called professionalisation. Enthusiasm fades, and business is the rule. Maybe I'm a bit negative, but I have no trust in any fixed long time perspective organisation supposed to do 'fun' (non comercila, ethusiast) things (So, Sam, if there is a planned membership for VCF, I'm out :). But, if we could keep it to a small and more individual to individual base, I'm in. > Some of the funding can also be used to provide insurance coverage to > members by people who know the value of what's being insured. Thats a very dangerous terrain. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>For example why is it that prople are hunting for MARK-8 and Kenbec's >when the most likely find (greatest quantity) for 8008 machines is a >MCS-8 from intel?!?! I disagree - an even *more* likely find is a 11/34a with an 8008 running the front panel! Tim.

27 years, 9 months

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Kaypro 10 HD woes

by jpl15＠netcom.com

One of my Kaypro 10s has a bad case of the dreaded 'Spindle Stiction', ie. it won't spin up on it's own. I have learned to smack it in just the right place, to produce a radial moment normal to the plane of rotation, and then it spins up and boots. The first time I did this, I backed up the drive to floppies, so if the drive dies for good, no big deal. Allison, I believe, was the person who discussed this fairly common problem, some months ago. And since starting a drive with the handle of a big screwdriver can only be termed *abuse*, it's amazing that the poor thing works at all. But try this, in case there is something wonderful living on the HD, before you format it. (If in fact the no-boot is caused by stiction....) Cheers John

27 years, 9 months

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Formatting a Kaypro 10 Hard Drive

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

You need the Kaypro 10 CP/M 2.2G Reload Disk Set (14 disks), which you can get from Don Maslin, keeper of the CP/M disk archives (donm(a)cts.com), for $3/first disk and $1/additional. The man's a saint. The 10 will work with up to 8 heads and, I believe, 306 cylinders. A Kaypro 10 manual would be helpful too, I got mine from my local Kaypro users group (yes, they still exist, all four guys of them). Some other stuff is available from The Computer Journal (http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/kaypro.html) Kai -----Original Message----- From: Phil Clayton [mailto:handyman@sprintmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 9:12 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Formatting a Kaypro 10 Hard Drive Just purchased a kaypro 10 Computer. The Hard Drive is Dead.. As I understand it has an MFM type drive.. I have several old drives (ST 225) from old XT's that I could replace the bad one with.. (If possible).. My knowledge is limited on CP/M.. Even more limited with on CP/M on Hard Drives.. Being a computer tech I formatted hundreds of old MFM type drives on XT's but this thing is very different.. I don't know where to start on this project. Can anyone help? Thanks.. Phil....

27 years, 9 months

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Vaporware (and not) from '83 CES

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 05:07 PM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote: >Vaporware? Please respond if you KNOW any of these exist for SURE. > >- STM Pied Piper (CP/M portable, 64K, $1295) I seem to remember this actually coming out, but I can't verify it. >- TI CC-40 (Compact Computer 40, laptop like Epson HX-20, 4 AA cells, 31 >character LCD display, $249) Got one. One just sold on Ebay for something like $150 or so. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 9 months

1
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Unassembled Altair kits

by sethm＠loomcom.com

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27 years, 9 months

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Eventual fate of our machines

by cmcmanis＠freegate.com

At 08:10 AM 10/7/98 -0700, you wrote: >Phase three: Finding the collection a new home (After I'm gone) > This is the tough one. In the wrong hands the collection might >just go to a landfill and that would be a real shame. I have no kids so >there is no one to carry on the tradition. This is what wills are for, insuring that your stuff is taken care of the way you want it to be taken care of. One way to do this in the US is with a 'living trust.' You create a trust and transfer title of your collection to it, in the trust you and your wife are trustees. Then you specify a successor trustee (say some local technology museum) and then when you are gone the control of the assets moves (without probate!) to the sucessor trustee. In the trust you can limit what the trustee can do with the trust assets, including disposing in landfills. --Chuck

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by ddameron＠earthlink.net

Hi All, At 07:52 AM 10/6/98 -0400, Allison wrote: >No Intel never made a cheap computer. They made CPUs, Memory and support >chips. The MCS. MDS, intellect even the SDKs were anything but cheap. > >< enabled them to make it cheap, and they commercialized it. The level o >< integration is the salient feature of the chip, but not the main featur >< of the important event. > >It's everything as the 8008 hit the level of integration needed to produce >a viable general purpose commercial cpu. > >For example why is it that prople are hunting for MARK-8 and Kenbec's >when the most likely find (greatest quantity) for 8008 machines is a >MCS-8 from intel?!?! > Yes, I would like to find a "Intellec 8", I think the same as a MCS-8, too. (Intel seems to use the term "MCS-8" very loosely in the literature I have.) There was also a single board computer, Sim8-01 with 2k bytes EPROM and 1k byte ram. It could be used with a MP7 EPROM (1702A) programmer. Another company was Martin research which made "Mike" series computers. Haven't found any of these either, but did find by inter-library loan their "Microcomputer Design" book, which has lots of 8008 info! It has a schematic of their "Mike 4" system, an 8008 based unit with about 20 ic's. It also included other minimal 8008 systems such as a 9 chip version. I have found a source for 8008 chips, so maybe a homebrew 8008 system is more likely as a future project. -Dave

27 years, 9 months

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