- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

the infamous grooved disk? is there anything wrong with that design? looks fairly clever and reliable. i havent seen any wear problems with the 20+ apple disk drives i have. the only minor issue is adjusting the head stop for which all you have to do is sight a little dot on the grooved disk (apple calls it a cam) with the little metal cam follower and make adjustments as needed. david In a message dated 10/12/98 7:46:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time, cisin(a)xenosoft.com writes: > The FIRST drives for the Apple ][ used a Shugart mechanism with the > infamous grooved disk. I have no idea what they might have used later.

27 years, 9 months

1
0
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Strange computer... ATR 8000

by rexstout＠uswest.net

Picked this thing up at Wacky Willy's in Portland, OR for $5 with a floppy drive(actually two 5.25" drives in a case with a PS). Not quite sure what to think of it. It says ATR8000 SWP Microcomputer Products on the front, lighted power switch on front, and on the back we have two 13-pin Molex connectors marked Peripheral Out and Computer In, and three edge-connectors marked RS-232, Printer and Floppy Drive. Inside it says Software Publisher's ATR8000, and has a Z80 CPU, a WDC floppy IC and a VERY small amount of RAM... They assumed it was an Atari of some sort, as they recently got an 800 and 800XL. Does anyone have any idea what the ATR 8000 is? BTW, if you need some Univac disk packs(don't remember the numbers on it) they have two at WW's. Kinda expensive, they say they sell the platters seperatly to artists @$10 each. With 4 or 5 platters in each pack, you either need to shell out almost $50 or be good at convincing them that it's not worth that much(and it's not easy, I've tried before). BTW, it's at the Vaughn St. location, at the end of the Fremont bridge(US30 exit, then the Vaughn St exit from the exit ramp...). -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham(a)qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac(a)qth.net Portland, OR | --------------------------------------------------------------

27 years, 9 months

3
3
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Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I maintain my stance that 'microprocessor' is a term used by the public and media to refer to a series of technical developments, that are not well considered before calling them microprocessors. In short, there is no way to define a microprocessor in the technical sense. TI's 1979 book Understanding Microprocessors defines it as: A digital integrated unit (or a set of IC's) that contains the digital functions necessary to be a CPU. It "processes" information and controls and keeps the system working in harmony as it responds to the step by step program that the CPU follows. Nice and circular :) >what a "microprocessor" is. In fact, the Arabs and the Israelis will >never have peace until the definition of a microprocessor is agreed upon >once and for all (oh yeah, and what "the first" means too). > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

4
4
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Strange computer... ATR 8000

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 04:36 PM 10/12/98 -0800, you wrote: >Picked this thing up at Wacky Willy's in Portland, OR for $5 with a floppy >drive(actually two 5.25" drives in a case with a PS). Not quite sure what >to think of it. It says ATR8000 SWP Microcomputer Products on the front, >lighted power switch on front, and on the back we have two 13-pin Molex >connectors marked Peripheral Out and Computer In, and three edge-connectors That is a (iirc) CP/M(?) box for an atari 800. I believe it plugs into the 800 (or other 8-bit atari) and the atari is the terminal for the CP/M Machine. Pretty amazing device. (Pretty amazing that I recognized the name! 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 9 months

1
0
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dishwasher + mainboards

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 10/12/98 6:18:47 PM US Eastern Standard Time, jim(a)calico.litterbox.com writes: hope you scraped your dishes clean before you ran them through! lol. Hehe - actually I ran it with a load of dishes. :) > --

27 years, 9 months

3
2
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dishwasher + mainboards

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Your esophagus, on the other hand, might object to your drinking HCl (de < on how dilute, I guess). Actually a fairly powerful acid is the citric acid in lemons and limes that people can and do eat/drink. Most pharmaceuticals use citric, hydrocloric and some preps even nitric acid to get a the required PH. This is really way off track for cleaning boards unless they have been hit with a strong alkli (leaking nicads!), in which case a good dousing with vinegar (acetic acid) or lemon juice (citric acid) will neutralize that. Anyhow the PH and total acidity of a dishwasher unless useing something strange is fairly mild. Electrolytic corrosion (usually from ionic solutions and dissimilar metals) is prevented by quickly drying the board either with mild heat or forced air. Unless your water is bad (unsafe to drink) it is likely fine for washing a board. I've done this to 10-15 qbus cards, a Micronta DVM, and several s100 cards with the expected result, clean. I do it on boards I'll have to work on as it's less messy and in one case it cleared a short! FYI: I used to service marine radios when I lived on LI,NY and the procedure for dunked electronics was toss it in a barrel of clean water ASAP to get the salt out. This is repeated with several barrels of clean water to get all of the salt. Then the equipment is than opended, cleaned and repaired as needed (speakers, microphones, buzzers, enclosed coils). Generally speaking potable water is ok, mud worse (abrasive), salt is real nasty. Allison

27 years, 9 months

2
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Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC)

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Did the Unidisk look anything like the Disk II? OR could it have been possible that the drive mechanism was replaced in mine? -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) > Date: Monday, October 12, 1998 6:52 PM > > On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Odd... I've got a number of Disk II's here, and every one has a stepper > > motor under the chassis with a disk on the spindle of it above the > > chassis. There's a spiral groove in the disk and a little lug on the head > > assembly that fits into the groove. The stepper motor turns the disk and > > thus moves the heads. > > > > Maybe there are several versions of the Disk II > > There is only one Disk ][. As mentioned before, the newer units were > first called the Unidisk and then later simply 'Apple 5.25" Drive'. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] >

27 years, 9 months

1
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Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC)

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Um, I don't care what anybody says, but that disk drive does NOT look like anything similar to an Apple Disk II. BTW: I used to have a Disk II, and the heads were positioned by a stepper motor, and didn't have any "spiral-grooved disc" anywhere in the entire unit. -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Kai Kaltenbach <kaikal(a)MICROSOFT.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC) > Date: Sunday, October 11, 1998 10:34 PM > > OK, I snapped a quick shot of the HAVAC, it's not the greatest picture but > it'll do :) > > http://www.geocities.com/~compcloset/MicrosciHavac.htm > > Kai > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Ismail [mailto:dastar@ncal.verio.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 11, 1998 6:42 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Microsci HAVAC > > > On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > This weekend I picked up this wacky little 6502 computer called the > Microsci > > HAVAC. Has anyone else ever seen one of these, or better yet, does anyone > > have a boot disk for it? > > Sounds neat. Can you supply us with a GIF? > > > The HAVAC has the weirdest floppy drive I've ever seen. It has a > > center-mounted clamp lever, and the head positioning is done via a > > spiral-grooved disc! > > The Apple Disk ][ used the same mechanism. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: > dastar(a)siconic.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98]

27 years, 9 months

4
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Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

But since most working implementations of an 8088 (the only one I have the databook for) require additional ICs, I'm wondering if it could truly be called a single-chip CPU. I mean, this thing needs chips for the clock line (8284, this says). It needs more chips for accessing RAM, and it needs RAM. Why do you say it's single chip? I think the only way to determine if it's a microprocessor is to look in the company's literature. If they call it an arithmetic logic unit, it's not a microprocessor. >failed to produce a working single-chip CPU before Intel. > >TI had a design, but it didn't prove to be manufacturable. > >Even if not everyone here agrees that being on a single chip is a necessary >condition for something to be called a microprocessor, to the best of my >knowledge no one disagrees with the claim that Intel as the first to make >a single-chip CPU. > >Eric > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

1
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Internet Question

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 06:06 PM 10/9/98 -0800, you wrote: >Does anyone remember the cost of internet access/online time via Compuserve >in the 80s ? I need to give a comparison of today's cost of sending a >graphics file. I seem to remember it as something like $12/hour for 300/1200bps and $24/hour for 2400bps. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 9 months

2
1
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dishwasher + mainboards

by franke＠sbs.de

> Okay, I just ran the mainboard to my 64 through the dishwasher. Does anyone > know what the material between the metal noise shield and the board is, Paper > and why it expanded during dishwashing? soaking wet ? > And if it will shrink again as it > cools and dries? I didn't run the thing through the dry cycle either. Use strong, cool air to blow the water away. I always use compressed air from a supply for pneumatic tools. Blowing the water away instead of drying avoids stains >from calcium and other dispensed materials (Well, Munich water is _very_ 'strong' :). > It is VERY clean... :) :)) > If it works after this I'll probably have to track down a replacement > keyboard. THEN throw the whole thing in a ziplock bag and keep it until I > figure out what to do with it. :) Wooah - a Ziplock Bag ? Together with the energy cost for your dishwasher this tripples the value of the C64 board :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

2
1
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dishwasher + mainboards

by allisonp＠world.std.com

ckaiser(a)oa.ptloma.edu hath spoke: < Good think you didn't run it through the dry cycle, or chips like the PL < might short out (very sensitive to heat). The dry cycle is ok if the temperature is under 180f, too hot and it can over heat parts. I prefer the oven at 160-180f as it's drier and a bit faster. A blast of compressed air is also good for getting water out from under parts to hasten drying. The PALS while temperature sensitive and no more so than any of the LSI on the board. < Are you sure the soap wouldn't have hurt the solder or board traces, < though? Your kidding? Soap will not hurt the solder or the boards. How do you think assembled boards are cleaned commercially? Allison

27 years, 9 months

3
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No place to contact... yet... but be ready

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Xref: world alt.sys.pdp8:4263 >Path: world!blanket.mitre.org!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!206.191.82.231!rockie.attcanada.net!attcanada!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm >From: david.razler(a)worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) >Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 >Subject: DEC Rainbows going up for sale >Date: 11 Oct 1998 16:10:15 GMT >Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services >Lines: 20 >Message-ID: <3621d6f7.30336552(a)netnews.worldnet.att.net> >Reply-To: david.razler(a)worldnet.att.net >NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.68.22.131 >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 If all goes well, my employer, The Press of Atlantic City, will be selling off an almost unlimited stock of working DEC Rainbows in 1st Q '99 (and, boy will I be glad to get something "modern" like a 486 on my desk.) Anyway, in addition to being collectors items in their own right, they have the same basic mechanical and electrical components as the DECMates. Word I'm getting is they'll go for cheap to anyone looking to keep them alive or in need of parts, at or just over scrap value. Also up for grabs will be at least one major PDP-11 system. I'll keep the list posted with the latest news including when and how to order your own PC-Clone and DECMate repair kit. dmr David M. Razler david.razler(a)worldnet.att.net

27 years, 9 months

2
1
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SCO Unix (Older version)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

What was the original price of this thing, and to whom was it marketed? > FWIW, I've listed an older version of SCO Unix up on Haggle. The URL is: > > http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201787290 > > Caveat emptor! > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) (Web: >http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) >SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own >human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

4
3
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Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> http://www.geocities.com/~compcloset/MicrosciHavac.htm >Um, I don't care what anybody says, but that disk drive does NOT look like >anything similar to an Apple Disk II. I agree - the door doesn't look anything at all like a Disk II. >BTW: I used to have a Disk II, and the heads were positioned by a stepper >motor, and didn't have any "spiral-grooved disc" anywhere in the entire >unit. I've had several dozen Disk II's, and they all had stepper motors with spiral grooved disks. Many, many drives were based around the SA390 and 400 mechanics, and some of them look quite dissimilar from the outside despite the fact that their internal mechanics are very similar. Kai - you mention on your web page that when you turn the machine on you go into a boot ROM monitor. What are the prompts like? Any copyright notices? Menus? Any "obvious" commands? Tim.

27 years, 9 months

1
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Items FS or trade

by rhblake＠bigfoot.com

Since I shut down the at home/on site business here and went to work as an ISS/CSS at a local corporation I need to do some cleaning out of excess here. I have many, many machines from 8088 through 80386DX that I can make a reasonable deal with someone on (not as cheap as an unknown condition thrift shop sale though) for mostly main units (you add the KB and monitor in may cases) but I have a few setups that are complete such as a 5150 PC that does have a 5151 monitor and original keyboard. PS/2's out the bung hole, Dells and AT&T's, etc. Many will have to be dug through when someone inquires about the condition and what it includes but 99% are in great condition other than minor wear and tear. I'm always looking for odds and ends for my machines here such as drives, cards, modems, etc as well as electronics test equipment for my bench. If you have something to trade rather than cash (which is my favorite, as is many other's) then let me know and we can go from there. Please email me direct so this isn't a problem with the list. I hate putting this on here but the people on this list seem to appreciate good sturdy hardware and see the actual value and use for it rather than seeing a pile of scrap with gold retrieval possibilities. Russ Blakeman Harned, KY 40144

27 years, 9 months

1
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dishwasher + mainboards

by roblwill＠usaor.net

> It doesn't have to be a strong solution; even a weak solution of HCl is > fine for human skin but will corrode metal. > > Still, only some do. Probably most are ionic detergents (sodium dodecyl > sulfate, sodium lauryl sulfate) but you never know, especially with rinse > agents. Just gotta be sure you pull the board before the rinse cycle :-). Then it's usually best to rinse it with distilled water. -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318

27 years, 9 months

1
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What was the first Unix micro?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

i third it In a message dated 98-10-08 13:10:59 EDT, you write: << I second your opinion Sam. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: What was the first Unix micro? Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/7/98 11:42 PM On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > OK, I'm getting tired of the arguments about who made the first > microprocessor. Fine. Maybe God did -- it's called DNA and as an > atheist I don't grant credit to anybody. Oh, ok. God forbid we discuss computer history on this list, Ward. We'll just go away now so you can fill up the list with your pointless one-line replies. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] >>

27 years, 9 months

6
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Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

The thing is, people bought their earlier products when IBM won in its battle with NCR. When IBM began to make computers, it was already well estblished in the business world. Do people mean a product with good ergonomics or with easy repairs in mind as marketing? That plays a role, though it has nothing to do with the quality of the product or its innovativeness. >> I would be very flattered that you attribute: >> * 40 years of corporate stability to marketing >> * extensive manufacturing capability to marketing >> * cash reserves to sustain development to marketing >> * vast R+D resources to marketing >> * world-class documentation to marketing >> * world-wide customer support to marketing >> * a simply immense infrastructure ... to marketing! > >Do you think they would have any of the above if nobody ever bought any of >their products? > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

1
0
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Fairchild Channel F units

by dcoward＠pressstart.com

Doug Spence <ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca> said: >Speaking of which... how common are the Channel Fs? I picked up several >cartridges for one some time ago, but I've never seen the actual unit. >I've only seen ads for them in old magazines. > I see one about every two years. I have 3, 2 of which are in boxes. And I've managed to collect all of the regular cartridges, except for #26, in the boxes with instructions. #19 is the hardest to find. http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum/mvfair.htm There was a second system (System II) that I believe was produced by the company that bought the rights to Channel F from Fairchild. The big differences in the two systems was that the original had a dark plexiglas cover over the controller storage compartment and the controllers were hard wired into the unit. It was the first home video game system to use programmed cartridges, but I think the cool thing about the Channel F was it 4 axis controller. ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA =========================================

27 years, 9 months

2
1
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Sams Computerfacts

by workapulo＠my-dejanews.com

You can also get photocopies of most of the Sam's Computerfacts by calling them and asking for one. If they have an old copy in stock, they'll copy it and send it to you for $20. I got Computerfacts for the C64 and C128 this way. Tony -- On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 02:12:00 Innfogra wrote: >Hi; >I have just listed on ebay a group of Sams Computerfacts that I have had some >interest in from people on the classic computer list. > >They are for: > >Computers - Osborne OCC1 & OCC1A, TRS-80 Models 3 and 4, Epson QX-10, Franklin >Ace 1000, Atari 800XL, IBM PC & AT, AT&T 6300, Leading Edge D > >Monitors - IBM 5151 and 5153, Amdek Color-I and the Video-300 > >Printers - Okidata Microlines 82A and 92, Apple A90303, NEC PC-8023A-N, NEC >PC-8025A, IBM 5152-002, Epsons MX-80 IIIF/T, FX-80, FX-100, MX-100, RX-80, >FX-286e, Star Geminis 10X and 15X > >These can be searched for by the keyword "Computerfact" (Singular context >please). > >I also listed a factory Toshiba T 1100 plus laptop maintenance Manual. >All of these are under Computer/hardware/books. >Paxton > >p.S. Please direct questions toi Whoagiii(a)aol.com. > -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

27 years, 9 months

1
0
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Seeking: Lisa/Mac XL 'Do it yourself guide'

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

The title pretty much says it all... Having (finally) added a LISA to the collection, I'm looking for a copy of the Sun Remarketing book on the LISA/Mac XL. Anyone out there have one that they could be parted from, or induced to feed thru a copier/scanner? ...and yes, I've seen the one on eBay... it's getting real expensive already (sigh) -jim --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

27 years, 9 months

3
2
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TRS-80 Model 100 (was Re: Convergent Technologies work

by franke＠sbs.de

>>The mention in this thread of a Kyocera-labeled product intrigues me, >>as I'd never heard of such at the edge of the Pacific I was on then. > The Kyocera KC-85 is well known, although not too common. The case is > shaped more like the NEC, but it has the keyboard of the m100. > P.S., come to VCF 3.0 and see all the variations (hopefully!) and check out > the talk I'm going to do (hopefully!) on the history of all these machines. > (If anyone has any info, history, or anecdotes, please get in touch!) I have the technical Reference, DOS manual and BASIC I/O Manuals for the NEC 8201A - interested ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

1
0
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Hayes

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> Just so everyone knows, Hayes has filed for Bankruptcy.. >>Again? > When was the last time? I think 3 or 4 years ago. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

1
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Marketing /formerly ...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< No, those running MS software are doing so mostly because MS was < the only game in town way back when... not hard to be 'best' when < you're the only one... also not hard to be 'worst'... Back to the original topic some. History. MS was not the only game in town. DRI, later Novell, now Caldara offered CPM86 and it decendants such as CCPM and DRDOS until MS crushed them. Caldara is still at it with Opendos (DRdos decendant). < Personally, I avoid MS-anything like the plague... I have a linux < system which has been up for more than a week straight... running < W95, I'm lucking if I *don't* have to reboot several times a day < either because the system has simply crashed, or wedged itself... I'm no fan of MS but I run a ton of CADD, FPGA and cross assemblers unavailable for Linux or freeBSD. The system that I must run it on is MSdos6.22/WIN3.1 that generally has an up time of months between reboots. The last down time was for a fan replacement. I've never run w95, but I've seen systems that can achieve that as well. My other half has a laptop for work that seems to be solid enough. None of the MS OSs are great products, they work ok though and when the system is configured with stable hardware and software. I've also found that linix or freeBSD tends to beat the daylights out of hardware and find even minor problems that seem to get by under MSdos/win but cause it to crash intermittently. Most of the complaints I've heard of MS dos/winders can be leveled at Linux or other unice as well. My pet peave is that most of the PC unice are limited about what hardware they run on and like win95 also will not be happy with a minimal 8meg of ram. Now what has this to do with old hardware. Unix has been around for some time, some 25-30 years. It's still not the generalized platform for applications software. I find that good low cost CADD tools are non-existant and most require Xwinders which is a memory hog and yet another potentially cranky item. So until I can find a good CADD, schematic capture, PCB routing, XAble and Xilinx FPGA package for PC unice for under a few hundred $$$ MS wins. That defined the market. Allison

27 years, 9 months

1
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Microsci HAVAC

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< If it was 1983 then definitely try DOS 3.3. It would be REALLY COOL if < that thing turned out to be an Apple //e clone. I can't imagine what el < would be using a 6502 at around that time (besides already established < designs...most new designs were coming out with 8088's by that time and < the 6502 was thought to be an oddity of the past). This is bogus. 1983 was not the end of the line for 8bitters yet. The 8088 was still gathering steam but far from a full head. the 8bit world would have another two years or so to peak. The Franklin ACE1200 in the may'83 Microsystems is only one example. The PC may have launched in 81... but it wasn't the defacto force quite yet in 1983.. or 86. If anything I'd call that the processor wars eara with 80186, 80286, 64180, 65816, 16032, 68000 to name a few all jockying for the next better runner. While that was going on new z80 and 6502 systems were emerging that were smaller, cheaper, faster to capitalize on the existing and still growing software base. Allison

27 years, 9 months

1
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6502 vs. 6800 (was Re: kits, definitions, prices...)

by franke＠sbs.de

> "Hans Franke" <franke(a)sbs.de> wrote: >> Yes, but as a rule, mainframes and most minis catch undefined >> opcodes in a special exeption. > That's only a 'rule' for recent machines. Most of the early ones didn't. > When IBM was developing the 1401 emulation for the 360/30, they discovered > that many customers were in fact using and dependent on undefined behaviors > of the 1401. They had to emulate a lot of things that were never documented. Now, thats what I call early. Of course you are right. I did only think back to the 60's technologie (/360 is the earlyest Mainframe system I ever programmed). > References: > _The Mythical Man Month_ by Brooks, > _Computer Architecture: Concepts and Evolution_ by Brooks and Blaauw, > _IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems_ by Pugh, Johnson, and Palmer Thank you Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

1
0
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Microsci HAVAC

by Innfogra＠aol.com

Micro-SCI made a line of Apple II and III compatable disk drives in the early 80s. I bet they made an Apple clone wannabee. Try apple dos 3.2 or 3.2. You could have gotten a copy of that too in my whse this weekend. Micro-SCI was a division of Standum Controlls, Inc. in Santa Anna, CA. This came out of their ad in a March, 1983 Byte.

27 years, 9 months

2
1
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Sams Computerfacts

by Innfogra＠aol.com

Hi; I have just listed on ebay a group of Sams Computerfacts that I have had some interest in from people on the classic computer list. They are for: Computers - Osborne OCC1 & OCC1A, TRS-80 Models 3 and 4, Epson QX-10, Franklin Ace 1000, Atari 800XL, IBM PC & AT, AT&T 6300, Leading Edge D Monitors - IBM 5151 and 5153, Amdek Color-I and the Video-300 Printers - Okidata Microlines 82A and 92, Apple A90303, NEC PC-8023A-N, NEC PC-8025A, IBM 5152-002, Epsons MX-80 IIIF/T, FX-80, FX-100, MX-100, RX-80, FX-286e, Star Geminis 10X and 15X These can be searched for by the keyword "Computerfact" (Singular context please). I also listed a factory Toshiba T 1100 plus laptop maintenance Manual. All of these are under Computer/hardware/books. Paxton p.S. Please direct questions toi Whoagiii(a)aol.com.

27 years, 9 months

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Microsci HAVAC

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Damn, you're right, that was the same as the early SA400's. This one isn't built nearly as solid, though, and the clamp mechanism is driven by strings(!) that run over pulleys just like an old radio tuner mechanism. Kai -----Original Message----- From: James Willing [mailto:jimw@agora.rdrop.com] Sent: Sunday, October 11, 1998 9:10 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Microsci HAVAC On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > This weekend I picked up this wacky little 6502 computer called the Microsci > HAVAC. Has anyone else ever seen one of these, or better yet, does anyone > have a boot disk for it? > > The HAVAC has the weirdest floppy drive I've ever seen. It has a > center-mounted clamp lever, and the head positioning is done via a > spiral-grooved disc! Well... while I am not familiar with the 'HAVAC', to find a more common use of the "spiral grooved disc" for head positioning, just look in any Apple II disk drive! (the early ones, not the 'DuoDiscs') That was the standard early Shugart 5.25 inch disk positioner mechanism. -jim --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

27 years, 9 months

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auction grabs

by Innfogra＠aol.com

The IBM 4224 is a 200 to 400 CPS dot matrix printer (usually 18 pin) for use on IBM networks. It sounds like you have the Twinax interface, about 1" in diameter, screw connector, with two pin holes. It is not usable on anything but a twinax network. I bellieve that IBM made 3 versions of varieing speeds in two interfaces. The second interface is a BNC Coax for the 3270 systems. While the networks are over 10 yrs old I doubt the printer is. Paxton

27 years, 9 months

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Microsci HAVAC

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

This weekend I picked up this wacky little 6502 computer called the Microsci HAVAC. Has anyone else ever seen one of these, or better yet, does anyone have a boot disk for it? The HAVAC has the weirdest floppy drive I've ever seen. It has a center-mounted clamp lever, and the head positioning is done via a spiral-grooved disc! The machine is about 16" deep, 10" wide, 8" tall, with the floppy drive in the center front (there is no door on the drive, just a slot and the funny lever -- no eject mechanism either, just pull the disc out manually). There is a small external keyboard about 10" by 13", no numeric pad, connects via a D-sub connector. On the back of the system unit, there are serial, "printer" (parallel?), 2nd floppy, and RCA video output connectors. I fired it up, and it displayed a HAVAC logo, ROM version 1.3, then the expected "no disk" error. I examined the system board, which is dated 1983, and has a 6502 CPU. There is no info anywhere on the net about this machine, that I can find. Any info appreciated, thanks Kai

27 years, 9 months

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Microsci HAVAC

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< The HAVAC has the weirdest floppy drive I've ever seen. It has a < center-mounted clamp lever, and the head positioning is done via a < spiral-grooved disc! Sounds like the shugart sa400 series. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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dishwasher + mainboards

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Unless I have my capacitors crossed, some dishwashing agents are < chlorine-based, and H20 <=> OH- + H+; mix a free Cl- ion in and you hav < hydrochloric acid. Which is why most are not CL- based. I thin their majik is a sodium ion. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia

by mbg＠world.std.com

>First, I didn't pick the example of Microsoft. Microsoft and IBM were >held up as examples of success through marketing when this thread >started, remember? Are you using a Microsoft product? I thought so. >Now, think real hard: was Microsoft lucky to get you to use their >software? No? Did you use their software because they were determined? >No? Did they convince you to use their software by playing "Start me >up!" real loud? No? No, those running MS software are doing so mostly because MS was the only game in town way back when... not hard to be 'best' when you're the only one... also not hard to be 'worst'... Personally, I avoid MS-anything like the plague... I have a linux system which has been up for more than a week straight... running W95, I'm lucking if I *don't* have to reboot several times a day either because the system has simply crashed, or wedged itself... Megan

27 years, 9 months

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Picture up (RE: Microsci HAVAC)

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

OK, I snapped a quick shot of the HAVAC, it's not the greatest picture but it'll do :) http://www.geocities.com/~compcloset/MicrosciHavac.htm Kai -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail [mailto:dastar@ncal.verio.com] Sent: Sunday, October 11, 1998 6:42 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Microsci HAVAC On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > This weekend I picked up this wacky little 6502 computer called the Microsci > HAVAC. Has anyone else ever seen one of these, or better yet, does anyone > have a boot disk for it? Sounds neat. Can you supply us with a GIF? > The HAVAC has the weirdest floppy drive I've ever seen. It has a > center-mounted clamp lever, and the head positioning is done via a > spiral-grooved disc! The Apple Disk ][ used the same mechanism. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98]

27 years, 9 months

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Microsci HAVAC

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> The HAVAC has the weirdest floppy drive I've ever seen. It has a >> center-mounted clamp lever, and the head positioning is done via a >> spiral-grooved disc! >The Apple Disk ][ used the same mechanism. And they're both derivatives of the Shugart SA390. Tim.

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 09:51 PM 10/7/98 -0700, you wrote: >Intel came out the winners; they wanted it the most. But it would have >happened with or without them. You had the 6800, the 6502 and a whole >slew of others. The computers built around those processors were just as >relevant and would have happened anyway. I will admit up front that I don't know everything, and I am not an EE (dropped out of community college) but it seems to me that Intel hadn't won anything until ~81 when IBM came out with their PC. Until then, the Z80 and 6502 were as dominant (if not more so) than the 8080/8085? In fact, I'll go so far as to suggest that perhaps if IBM had gone with, say, the z8000, Intel would not be anywhere near as big as it is? It seems to me that what really got the "cheap computer revolution" going was the Z80 (CP/M, TRS-80, etc.) and the 6502 (Atari, Commodore, Apple II). Because no matter what the tech-heads are doing in their garages, nothing is a revolution until you can buy it at Sears. There is a similar situation with digital recording -- it's been around and available for eons, but mostly was only available to those with lots of $$$ (big studios/record companies) or tech-heads. Now, with the soundblaster/CD-R combo and some software (which, if it isn't available as shareware, I would be extremely surprised!) anyone can cut a full-digital (DDD) CD at home. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 9 months

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Marketing (was Re: Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I think that the amount of marketing necessary is related to the quality and value of the product itself. After all, if a computer is reeealy good, only a simple demonstration is necessary and it will be bought. If the product is nothing new, then $150m will be spent making it successfull. >> >> > Perhaps I'm cynical, ... >> > But I maintain that what determines the course of the industry is NOT the >> > quality of the technology, but the marketing. How else do you explain >> > the successes of IBM, MS, etc.? Surely not due to their superior >> > quality?!? >> >> No, not the "M" word! We just had a "marketing" thread and the term was >> tossed around like it was this magical thing that was responsible for >> everything that couldn't be explained by technical merit. > >It doesn't explain everything, but you'd be a fool to think marketing is >not responsible for at least 50% of a product's success (and that's being >conservative). > >> First of all, IBM can hardly be called successful. *In spite* of all the >> "marketing" they did, Taiwanese with no marketing at all were able to >> completely erode their PC market share. > >Let me get this straight...you're saying IBM can hardly be called >successful? This must be a typo. > I have seen several who think IBM is a failure. Once, I was at a computer store with another person, getting a computer repaired. THe other person asked the tech 'So, do you think Apple will survive?' The answer was quick: 'Sure, IBM survived, didn't it?' I asked her what she meant. She said, 'Well, their entire PS/2 line was killed off'. For one thing, the PS/2 shows that with great marketing and technology, a product can still fail. Secondly, it would appear that in most people's minds, everything before the PC is a haze. >where they did today. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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Columbus analogy (Was: Corrections to trivia

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

> >> < So, is Columbus less important because the Vikings reached the Americas >> < before him? Or is it only important that most of the lasting effects >> < descend from Columbus? > >Columbus is a superb analogy for this thread! Not that the results >necessarily match, but that MANY related issues are also present. > >Columbus is the "canonical" discoverer, in spite of the Vikings, or even >the previously existing "colonists" who had been living there for a LONG >time ever since coming over the Bering straits? Well, that 'canonicity' of this is beginning to change. >Likewise, the Intel 4004 is the "canonical" first microprocessor, in >spite of other previous units that might or might not meet various >definitions. Unlike the columbus question, most people neither know nor care who made the first microprocessor or what serial number it was. Just about every m.p. is considered first by _someone_. >> . . . >> Better put, the vikings were here. Columbus told the world two things, >> it's not flat and there are great riches in the east. Somewhere in ther >> is the difference in those explorations goals. > >Since FEW have ever heard anything about this other than TOTAL BS in school, >it bears looking at some of the distortions. What is taught in school is >even less accurate than would be a history of computers by MS, IBM, >Intel, or Apple. In line with the use of it as an analogy, it is useful >to look at how distorted it has become, and realize that the same thing >happens quite quickly in fields such as ours. It happens in all fields. It will always happen. We're doing it now. There is nothing new under the sun. >but quite costly. > >Columbus did NOT tell the world that it wasn't flat. By the time of >Columbus, that was well known and accepted by all educated people. The >only ones who still thought that it was flat are now paying dollars per >minute for telephone psychic readings. Although there were some fears of >dangers, sailing off the edge was NOT taken seriously as a possibility by >anybody with any education. As a matter of fact, the Romans knew that the world was round. The knowledge was lost for about 8 centuries. >it was just too far going that way. Even the diameter and circumference >of the earth had been reasonably accurately computed (showing that the >shortest route to the Indies was still to the east). > >But Columbus had an inaccurate, wrong, crackpot theory that the earth was >about one third the size that had been calculated. Thus, he was convinced >that it WOULD be shorter going west. There are a lot of other issues >involved with his funding, etc. Never knew that. All progress is made by unreasonable men... >He set off, and lo and behold, encountered land somewhere near to where >the Indies would have been if he had been right about his 1/3 size theory. > >BTW, his very first recorded words about the existing inhabitants were: >"a good source for slaves". > >> An aside to this is while Intel is currently the apparent successful >> leader en masse we still don't know how it will play over time yet to >> come. There have been near reversals in the past and it would only take >> the next design leap to change the current course. Also the industry is >> only 30 years old in a century where we are still developing fundemental >> technologies. > >Perhaps I'm cynical, ... >But I maintain that what determines the course of the industry is NOT the >quality of the technology, but the marketing. How else do you explain >the successes of IBM, MS, etc.? Surely not due to their superior >quality?!? Well, IBM really had very little competition. DEC and Data General were quite successful too. But, since IBM was already around making typewriters and card punchers, it was already firmly established in the market. Did NCR ever venture into mainframes and minis, BTW? I have seen a nicely designed AT clone of theirs. > >And progressive improvement in hardware ... Only among people who submit to marketing and not quality. >Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com >2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 >Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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RQDX2 & 3 jumpers

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 11, 10:46, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Subject: Re: RQDX2 & 3 jumpers > Bruce Lane spoke: > > I've posted jumper and cabling details of the RQDX2 and RQDX3 to my web > Great! This answers some of my questions. Now to show what an ingrate I > am, does anyone have any info on the following jumpers: > > W12..W17 These set the starting "logical unit number" for board, as a binary number (W12=LSB, W17+MSB). If you have multiple RQDXn boards, you'd typcally set the second card to start with LUN 4, the third with LUN 8, etc. Jumper out = 0, jumper in = 1. > W23 -- I think this is for what kind of cabinet that the card is in. No, it controls the HEADSEL 3 and REDUCWRTI signals. W23 has 4 posts numbeerd 1..4. Factory setting is 1-2 jumpered on early firmware, 1-2 and 3-4 for version 2 firmware (ROMs 23-243E5/23-244E5) or later. Alternatively, you can jumper 2-3, which has the effect of connecting HEADSEL 3 to pin 9 of J1, and REDUCWRTI to pin 22. That allows you to use hard drives with more than 8 heads. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 9 months

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SCO Unix (Older version)

by kyrrin＠jps.net

FWIW, I've listed an older version of SCO Unix up on Haggle. The URL is: http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201787290 Caveat emptor! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 9 months

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RQDX2 & 3 jumpers

by kyrrin＠jps.net

I've posted jumper and cabling details of the RQDX2 and RQDX3 to my web site. With apologies for the lousy navigational interface (no Next/Previous keying yet), anyone who needs to can find it at: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin Follow the link tagged 'TechLinks' and scroll down near the bottom of the page. The info is in multiple .GIF files. Enjoy! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 9 months

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dishwasher + mainboards

by jim＠calico.litterbox.com

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 765 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981010/4a2be701/at…

27 years, 9 months

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dishwasher + mainboards

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Okay, I just ran the mainboard to my 64 through the dishwasher. Does an < know what the material between the metal noise shield and the board is, < why it expanded during dishwashing? And if it will shrink again as it < cools and dries? I didn't run the thing through the dry cycle either. Fishpaper as some call it. It's a thick stiff paper put ther to prevent shorts. If you put it in with the shield in place you will have to remove it and dry it, maybe replacing the paper. A useable replacement is manila (72 or144lb card stock). < It is VERY clean... :) You still have to dry it out well! Allison

27 years, 9 months

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MAC Portables (The BIG ones)

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

Guys: Are there any of you out there looking for these beasts? I know somebody who's got a 5120 and a 5126. He's asking $50 each (too high in my opinion), but the price ought to be negotiable. I know he also has at least one power brick, and an NOS portable battery charger (M0275). Send me personal e-mail if there is any interest. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

27 years, 9 months

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FW: FREE HP3000

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Just passing this on.... Reply to the fellow who wrote the orig. NG message! Found this in comp.sys.hp.hardware: >From: Alec Gagne <alec(a)eclipsesystems.com> >Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp.mpe,comp.sys.hp.hardware,comp.sys.hp >Subject: FREE HP3000 >Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 01:14:27 -0700 > >Free, to a good home! > > HP3000 Series 37 Mini Computer > Series 37 CPU > 1 Meg RAM > 7 Ports (6 ATP and 1 ADCC) > 2 HP7945 55 MB Disk Drives > 3 HPIB cables > 1 HP9144 1/4 inch Tape Drive w/about 10 tapes. > 1 HP Cabinet with internal rails > 1 HP2392A 14 inch Terminal & Keyboard > > ( About the size of a Full Tower PC but twice as thick ) > >The machine loads to MPE V-Delta-5 (Version G.B3.05) operating system >I have the an original OS load tape. > >Everything is in GOOD condition, and it runs! I used it as a >development machine for writing COBOL code up until last year. > >I tried to sell it, but nobody was interested. The computer junk >dealers will "take it off my hands" for scrap. I would rather give >it away to someone/anyone who needs it/wants it or just wants to >learn about it, than have it scapped for parts. > >The only loop hole is you have to come pick it up. It is heavy and >expensive to ship, and I don't particularly want to haul it down to >the UPS office. > >I am in San Jose California. >First come first serve, limited quantity (1). > > >Regards > >Alec > > >-- >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > Eclipse Systems -- Business & Public Sector Solutions Since 1989 > P.O. Box 53435 San Jose, California 95153 USA (408) 362-1651 > http://www.eclipsesystems.com > > Provider of CrimeStar -- http://www.CrimeStar.net >-------------------------------------------------------------------- Happy HP collecting! --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/

27 years, 9 months

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Fairchild Channel F (was: Re: Corrections to trivia)

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Hi I could pick one up for you if you want, there's on that has been around a thrift store here for some time now. They want $25 for it but I can negotiate. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon >Speaking of which... how common are the Channel Fs? I picked up several >cartridges for one some time ago, but I've never seen the actual unit. >I've only seen ads for them in old magazines. > >-- >Doug Spence >ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca >http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ > >

27 years, 9 months

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Corrections to trivia

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< > Micral, Mark-8, Scelbi 8H were the first wave. I don't know of any 40 < > micros other than the MCS-4, but I doubt it was especially cheap or wi < > available compared to some of the others, and compared especially to t < > computers that came before. < < Ok, I can add the Kenbak-1 to your list and it would be just as irreleva < as the three you just listed. You just named three computers that barel Ok then how about mords/modules manufactured and sold with 8008s on them like the Control Logic L series (there weren't the only ones) for use in industrial controls. Their cost was not that far off the mark when compared to an altair with 4k and a PIO. < We would have had microprocessor-based computers on our desktop today. < The trend was definitely heading in that direction. Intel merely was i < the right place at the right time. There still would have been a Lee < Felsenstein, a Steve Wozniak and a Ray Holt. And a slew of others. Altair was not a big bang, it was however a marker or milestone that had to happen if not to MITS then some one else. I would also contend that if at least two other vendors didn't jump on S100 in less than 6 months the Altair would be far more obscure. < I'm not saying it could have, I'm saying it WAS and IS. The F14 CADC < happened (independently and prior to the 4004). That is a fact. The < AMI7200 and AMI7300 happened. That is a fact. Several other < microprocessors from several other companies happened. That is a fact. < Even if Intel had never existed, we STILL would have had the microcomput < revolution of around 1975, and today we would have microprocessor-based < computers on our desks and in our pockets. To speculate otherwise woul < be absurd. The CADC itself was of little direct impact as we never saw it. The processing, design steps and process experience however were critical to whoever made them as they gained valuable foundry experience and could apply that to the next product. Also, since Ray Holt didn't do it alone there wer a slew of people that also gained experience they could apply to thing like calculator chips and maybe even the 4004. This makes it easier to create the next product and also possible to do it less expensively. < them. I don't have the Nina, the Pinta or the Santa Maria in my < collection, so Columbus never "discovered America". I don't have an Technically he didn't. He discoverd the Caribian islands. BUT, by not falling off the flat earth and finding something out there others would come and actually touch the Amrican contenents. < Apollo rocket in my collection, so America never made it to the moon. Still, it's possible to go and see one. FYI: the rocket was Saturn, the command module was known as Apollo . < You seem to have this idea that Intel deliberately acted to create the < microcomputer industry, that they had this grand master scheme that woul < culminate in the Altair 8800. This is simply not the case. Intel did < provide training and support to companies to use the 4004 in their < applications, but where is your evidence that they knew this would lead < cheap computers? Their advert in November 1971 electronic news. A quote: A micro-programable computer on a chip! Intel Introduced an integreated CPU complete with a 4-but parallel adder, sixteen 4-bit registers, an accumulator and a push down stack on one chip. It is one of a family of four new ICs which comprize the MCS-4 Micro computer system - the first system to bring you the power and flexibility of a dedicate general-purpose computer at low cost in as few as two dual in-line packages. Seems they were aimed squarely at the low cost market. They would introduce the 8008 and 8080 in the same ways. < The 4004 was just the first in the succession of many microprocessors fr < many manufacturers. Why did the Mark-8 and Scelbi 8H designers choose t < 8008? Who knows. What compelling evidence do you have that shows Inte < intended for the 8008 to end up in those computers? An equally importan < question is what computers did the other microprocessors being develope < at the time end up in? They had to have gone into something. Just < because you don't have those in your collection, does not mean they wer < not built. Likely for the same reson I used the 8008 the first time. Intel was visible and advertized. When I helped pick the 8008 in late '72 I could point to a working board (MCS-8) and docs to help us newbies. We used what we knew about and at 200$US each they weren't cheap at all but it was better than 200 pieces of TTL that had to be wired and tested. So the Mark-8 Etal had the precedence of visible advertizing, Docs and availability. An aside , the docs part was not lost on moto! You could get the 6800 cheap enough and for 25$ more you could get a thick volume of hardware and software knowlege that made using it easy. < What I'm trying to say is that this revolution would have happened with < without Intel, and assigning them all the credit for creating this < industry, or making it possible, or even influencing it is credit not < entirely deserved. What is missed and not mentioned is the small details. INTEL created the 4004 becuase they didn't want another fixed function calculator chip for only one vendor. This ment they could mass make it and sell to everyone with higher profit. The 4004 was significant as it had a hardware return address stack. There are things there that did seperate the micro computers that would result from the minicomputers that were before. < > importance of the 4004. LSI was just a means to an end: cheap compute < > How much did the F14's computer cost, BTW? < < I want to say less than $100 per computer but I think it was actually le < than $100 per chip. Still, that would put it at $600 at the most for th < whole system (6 chips total in the F14 CADC). Some perspective... in mil spec design, construction and testing made it likely several thousand $$$. Even if it were 10k$ per it was cheap compared to available processors of the time and none fit in that form factor. Also the 4004 was *relatively* cheap but the amortized development cost were still significant and have to be include to be fair. < > 4004 was the Big Bang; that the dust from that explosion still bears t < > Intel imprint is interesting, but that's a different topic. < < And I am still arguing that the 4004 was NOT the big bang. I don't wan < to put my thumb (at this point) on which Intel product it was. But it m < not in fact even be an Intel product. It very well may be a combinatio < of products from multiple vendors. I haven't seen any conclusive < arguments to support the 4004 as being the big bang that started the < microcomputer revolution. It was a pop, just like the CADC was a pop. I'd say there is some reality there. The big bangs were those that would hit the media and cause ripples down the line. Using that line of thought... the CPU chip was not the big bang but the catalyst for the explosion. IE: Altair was not significant due to the 8080 but that it was first of class and more importantly COPIED. Name one other machine/bus before ALTAIR that would be copied widely and competitively within one year of introduction!?! I will add that I doubt Intel saw it as a serious opportunity to sell chips until after the Pop'tronics cover hit the stands. Reason it would be little while before the hobby (we were called that) market would be taken seriously and semiconductor vendors would see the potential of the early edge of the personal computer/ small desktop computer industry. That got DEC, IBM and DGs attention though none were sure of what to make of it. The fact of it was by 1978 there was no question that there wer more microcomputers (or various types) than all of IBM, DEC and DGs output to date! It was the Volkswagons of the computer industry. Tin Lizzie, Ha! Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Vaporware (and not) from '83 CES

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

New computers announced at the 1983 CES: Vaporware? Please respond if you KNOW any of these exist for SURE. - Panasonic JR-200 (I think this may exist) - Sanyo PCH20/PHC25 (Z80, 4K/16K, $99/$199) - STM Pied Piper (CP/M portable, 64K, $1295) - TI 99/2 (Supposedly $100, including 4.2K RAM) - TI CC-40 (Compact Computer 40, laptop like Epson HX-20, 4 AA cells, 31 character LCD display, $249) - Unisonic Futura 8300 (Z80, 2K, Sinclair BASIC, $90) - Video Technology VZ200 (Z80, 4K, MS BASIC, $99) Not Vaporware - Jupiter Ace - Mattel Aquarius - Spectravideo SV-318 - Timex Sinclair 2000 By the way, has anyone actually seen an TI 99/4 (not 4a)? Kai

27 years, 9 months

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