- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Wait...all matter resists current, and all matter can be forced to emit light, so any item is a 'Light-emmitting resistor'. > >> I used to know the speed of light in Furlongs per Fortnight. > >The attoparsec/microfortnight is remarkably close to the inch/second. >Quite useful for quoting tape speeds :-) > >> >> If you wish to piss off the counter help at your local parts >> shop... ask for a 'Light-Emitting Resistor'. Hardware stores and >> markets have them too. > >You mean a light-emitting non-linear load? > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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Kenback 1

by rax＠warbaby.com

No, I didn't find one for 10 bucks, but I was wondering if anyone knows about how many were made? R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup.

27 years, 9 months

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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< What amazes me is that no one has ever marketed a mainframe-like < machine out of modern processors. Someone mentioned they had made What like the VAX 4000 or 6000 series, HP3000, PDP-11/23 or later. The list could be very long. < one out of a 286 and some z80s, but why did no single company ever < sell any? I would think such machines could be very useful. OTOH, it < makes more money to sell 1000 machines than 3 machines and 1000 dumb Lessee, I have a Compupro 8/16 (8085/8088) s100 crate that also has a MPX1 an 8085 board used to do IO independent of the main cpu. A later version of the machine was made with 186, 286 and even 386 cpus. Some of the VME and multibus crates were cpu intensive as well. NCR in '91 had a killer four 486 cpu box. The DEC VAX6250 and 6400 were two and four cpus systems. The point being companies DID. They made money. They were too specialized(some cases) and difficult(some cases) to program compared to simpler single cpus. PCs have at least several CPUs, the 486 I'm running has an 8042 (keyboard interface), one in the tape backup, one in the SCSI CDrom, several 8051s(each scsi drive) and even one in the keyboard. no doubt I may have missed one or two. < terminals...sometimes I wish capitalism was never invented... Oh dear, here we go again. You are unaware on Connection machines, DEC LAVCs, Transputers and lots of other multiple processor configurations. The reason this is not usually done is it's expensive when it can be reduced to one primary cpu. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Webpage up; input needed

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Hello everyone! I got my new website going, and I'd like a bit of input. I'm starting a little "computer museum", and need some info. Just click go to <http://members.tripod.com/general_1/>, and go to the "Command Central" link. I'm currently working on the Compaq Portable and WANG WLTC page. If anyone has any pics and descriptions of old 'pooters (or putters, depending on how old), just email them to me, and I'll try to get them on the page. ThAnX, -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 PS>> Don't forget to sign my guestbook :^)

27 years, 9 months

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Mainframes vs PCs (was Re: discrete transistors)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)freegate.com> wrote: < > Back to classic computers, it has been said, perhaps apocryphylly(sp?) < > that "My laptop has more computer power than NASA used to put men on t < > moon." While it may be true, I've never actually seen a description of < > computer resources available to NASA between 1962 and 1969. Does anyon < > the list have that information? "My laptop has more computer power than NASA used to put men on the moon." I find that a loaded quote because it's unbounded. Does this refer to ground support, design and simulation systems or what? Granted the computers that flew were not Crays, they didn't have to be. They were sized for the mission as it was conceived and then had every ounce of weight pared out. They however are unique as they ( I believe from from Gemini on) were IC based, had to work at extremes of temperature, be compact, not use too much power or generate a lot of heat that was difficult to remove. those are imposing requirements for the time (pre 1968 technology!!). In the case of Gemini, Apollo and the Shuttle they also were flown as stable designs when better technology was available. That's a result of the need to freeze the design and program it before it could be flown. Considering the capsule(Apollo) was complete in 1967 (I may be off a year) for Apollo, that means a lot of fancy design work and programming. If we look we may see the predecessor to the CADC in the space program. Now considering the laptop has had some 15 plus years of development history beyond the space program it should be better! Allison

27 years, 9 months

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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< And none of those tricks scale up very well for implementing high-perfor < versions of standard microprocessor architectures. The point was that The point is why copy the x86! there are better ways. I don't think I want to try and do the cache and pipeline registers as they eat transistors like mad being mostly memory structures. Copying a PII is also copying how much ram? It would not be a practical venture. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Week End Finds

by dogas＠leading.net

>Does any one have docs on the pc-1500? Any info would be appreciated. A web >search didn't bring anything more than the specs, I would like to find >programming info if that is possible. >Thanks >Francois Hi Francois, I just ordered one of these machines ( inbound mail ) send me some mail to dogas(a)leading.net I should have it by week end... - Mike

27 years, 9 months

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Treasure chest!

by Marion.Bates＠Dartmouth.EDU

I just went through a pile of stuff in the storage room I use for an office, and found the following (which the boss is letting me keep): - complete set of manuals for Lisa OS and 7/7 apps!!! - complete set of original 7/7 disks - Smalltalk pre-beta release version 0.3 for the Mac (is this a port of the Smalltalk that ran on the Xerox PARC? I'm pretty ignorant about that.) - Manuals for Lisa Pascal Workshop - MacWorks manuals - assorted diskettes of old Mac/Lisa stuff Today was a happy day. -- MB

27 years, 9 months

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Week End Finds

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Hi, This week end I found a TI 99/4a Beige brand new in the box never used accompanied with the epansion box (my arms still hurt from carrying this stuff) and a box of software for it (Microsoft multiplan among other word processors and databases) Apparently it came from a dealer since it also had a bunch of deal training material, price lists and flyers with Bill Cosby. Also got a couple of color pong machines: a Radio shack and a Ricochet. A National Semiconductor ADVERSARY (pong style?) And a Sharp PC-1500A with the printer and cassette interface, it was used as an embedded system for a Pulmonary Analysis Computer (pretty good example of interfacing a pocket computer to the external world) the extra hardware has a D/A and A/D converter pretty cool. Does any one have docs on the pc-1500? Any info would be appreciated. A web search didn't bring anything more than the specs, I would like to find programming info if that is possible. Thanks Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon

27 years, 9 months

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Mainframes vs PCs (was Re: discrete transistors)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

According to the November '95 Popular Science, p88: The Apollo 11 guidance computer had 2K of RAM and 36K of ROM, and barreled along at 1 MHz. The circuits consisted of 24 modules contained in two trays, weighed 70 pounds, and required 70 W of power. To issue commands, the astronauts used a unique interface that consisted of a number pad and an LED readout. Commands were issued in "noun-verb" format; the astronauts would key in numbers that were codes for commands like "display velocity" or "change program". Nasa computers on the ground were somewhat more powerful, but not much, according to Merritt Jones, a space physicist for the Gemini and Apollo programs who now works for IBM. " The machine used in the mission control center, which was the most powerful commercial machine at the time, could execute 1 million instructions per second," he recalls. "It cost $4 million and took up most of the room. It had one megabyte of memory." next comes a description of modern computers and how laptops can do '90 Million Instructions per second and is small enough...' >things into and out of memory rather than bothering the CPU with all that. >To facilitate this the mainframes typically have fairly complex snooping >caches for effective management of paging activity. > >The Crays and ConnectionMachines have, in the past, had the advantage of >being vector processors where typical mainframes were often SIMD machines >at best and simple pipelines at worst. Microprocessors caught up with the >SIMD wave with multi-ALU pipelining, and with the Katmai and AMD-K7 they >will get many of the vector features that made so-called "super computers" >so fast. > >If you build a "PC" (Pentium II class) with 256MB of SDRAM and dual PCI >based fast/wide SCSI controllers running to a striped RAID array of "good" >SCSI disks you can "beat" a lot of mainframes. Of course you best them with >a $10,000 PC. > >Back to classic computers, it has been said, perhaps apocryphylly(sp?), >that "My laptop has more computer power than NASA used to put men on the >moon." While it may be true, I've never actually seen a description of the >computer resources available to NASA between 1962 and 1969. Does anyone on >the list have that information? > >--Chuck > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by roblwill＠usaor.net

MHz is MegaHertz. mHz is milliHertz. I think mhz is a typo. -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors > Date: Monday, October 19, 1998 7:36 PM > > > Eventually, the early 386s were only 16mhz! > > Is mhz == MegaHertz or is mhz == milliHertz? > If so, that could be why this machine seems SO slow. > > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 >

27 years, 9 months

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TOPS-20

by mbg＠world.std.com

> Uh, screen does in fact allow you to do this. Sorry, from your description it didn't sound like it would do it at all... I'll have to take a look at it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 9 months

3
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UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 19, 12:27, Kevan Heydon wrote: > On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, I wrote: > > > > It would be interesting just to see how many collectors in the UK (and > > mainland Europe) would be interested in going to a UK VCF. > Well the replies never really got started. I only got five replies, all > said they were interested. I can only conclude that there are not that > many UK collectors on this list. And we can probably guess who they were, too. Ah, well, it makes it easier to budget for a barbecue, I guess... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 9 months

1
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Belly laugh on eBay

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

haha, that is a laugh! 2011 is a 1992 era 80286-10 IBM PS/1. has a good cuteness factor, but rather closed in design though. In a message dated 10/19/98 2:40:02 PM US Eastern Standard Time, kaikal(a)MICROSOFT.com writes: > This item description on eBay says it all: > > 36111353 Collectible IBM PS/1 Type 2011 > > BWAHAHAHAHA!

27 years, 9 months

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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< What about 386s? Did Intel outrun the mainframes with the 386, or were Eventually, the early 386s were only 16mhz! < there discrete transistor machines with better performance than that? < BTW, what did the Cray I use? A lot 300+ boards of ECL logic. ECL was the fasest of the fast for that time and it's density was relatively low. It was so densely packed that the cooling was embedded refrigeration! Allison

27 years, 9 months

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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< can not compete with a high-end monolithic microprocessor. The laws of < physics conspire against it. They do. There are ways around that. Tricks like massively parallel or very wide words to name a few. < Motorola claims to have started shipping ECL integrated circuits in 1962 In 1967 I got my first MECL 1000 parts to play with as they had dropped to hobby prices, still have a few. They were difficult to work with and fast by any standrd then. FYI: I was applying them as linear devices. I do know for sure that in '64 those parts existed but they were somthing like $20-30 each. Then again I remember seeing the infamous 709 opamp the early 60s at $120 each! I may add that a friend gave me the "engineering junkbox" from his company in 1968 and the parts in there besides transistors included RTL (914, 923, MC7xx) and a few opamps of the 709/741 series. I learned a lot working with those parts. I was only lucky kid! < Why were people still building computers using discrete transistors for < years after that? Many of the high-end computers used discrete < implementations of non-saturating logic that was very similar to ECL. The bias points for ECL were hard to control and level shifts were a source of errors. Also they were more expensive than RTL and the DTL (pre ttl) parts. Also ECL requires transmission line style layout and that would not be widely adopted until three or more layer PCBs would be in use. There were also those that objected to the power required by ECL and it's resulting heat (back to the bias shift problem). The problem is once ICs made an appearance in the mid 60s they were being used but only where cost justified them (they werent cheap! nor were they fast!). Another item forgotten is the design cycles were measured in years then, so by time the massive transistor machines started running the SSI ICs were starting down the price curve. In practical terms the first massive transistor machine was the TX2 an experimental one of a kind. It would only about 10 years later when the first IC machines started appearing in the late '60. By then the 1nS/ft propagation limit was becomming obvious to designers (ask Cray!). Allison

27 years, 9 months

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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< A 486 is certainly faster in terms of CPU horsepower. But a 486 < has no I/O horsepower whatsoever. Nor does any sort of Pentium. Problem with most all of the high power processors. The VAX series were only ok in that respect and were better if there were external IOPs. < It's certainly *possible* to add intelligent I/O channels to an x86 mach The hottest machine I've played with was a hacked xerox XP12 laser printer controller. It was a 8mhz 8086 and a 8089(IOP). It could beat any 8086 system cold (using s100 and multibus systems as standard). Later I would see a 8086 multibus system with two 8089s running CPM-86 and it was far faster than the then new AT. The speed of the IO systems and it's peripherals is everything. I know this from building a multiprocessing/multitasking system in the early 1980s using four z80s in a loosely coupled SMP. The array of z80s, 8085s and 8749s around them to do IO was where the real performance could be found. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< But you can't build a *system* with that overall density. Long standing problem but, the military did have machine approacing that density. Consider that once you got over a certain size it was less imporant to be small. < used in the 7000-series computers to SLT (hybrid integrated circuits on < ceramic substrates, first used in System/360 in 1964). Yep. I disagree that a 286 had more raw cpu performance than some of the big transistor machines. I still remember the BOCES/LIRICS KA10 running some 300 users. I've never seen a 286 run more than 4. Same applies to IBM 2060s. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190/thread drift

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

What I meant was, if discrete transistors could be used, a small cube of which would equal a Pentium II in transistor number, it would be possible to make a Pentium II box to plug into an XT in 1982. Of course, I hadn't considered at the time I said it that it would be very slow, and speed is the main difference between an earlier machine and a Pentium. >There were boards to put 386s in XT machines. I have one, an Intel >inboard386pc. It replaces the 8088 (the 8088 has to be removed). There >were others made. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

1
0
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Universal drive

by mark_k＠iname.com

On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 Max Eskin wrote: >Is there a device that would allow _any_ disk, independently of >format, including Apple ][ disks, to be read? I know Teledisk can do >this for all conventional formats, but not Apple disks. It would be >nice to connect one of these and read the disk image into a file. >The main reason why I ask is for rescuing messed up floppies... There is a product called Catweasel which is available for the Amiga and PC (ISA card). This is a floppy disk controller which is capable of reading and/or writing many disk formats. According to a magazine article that I have in front of me, the ISA version currently supports (amongst others) Amiga DD & HD, Apple II, Mac 400K & 800K, Commodore 1541 & 1571. I don't know whether reading Mac 400K & 800K disks requires a non-standard type of 3.5" drive or not. PC software support is apparently not too good at the moment, meaning that you will have to write your own code for more exotic disk formats. The supplied MS-DOS programs require a 486 for no good reason. A Linux driver is supplied, but this is object code only, not source. (IMO trying to keep the software that accesses the card private like this is a really silly thing to do.) Anyway, the URL given was http://www.jshoenfeld.com/eindex.html On Thu, 1 Oct 1998 Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >Atari ST uses DOS format in the first place. Amiga can be read on the PC by >Amiga emulators. C64, I have no idea, but I know at least you could use a >C128 to copy files to CP/M format. Amiga disks cannot be read by normal PC disk controllers. You can make a cable to hook up a 1541 disk drive to a PC or Amiga and read files or disk images using this. -- Mark

27 years, 9 months

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COMPUTER SPACE REGISTRY

by van＠wired.com

Hello everybody... I hope you are all having a lovely weekend. I have decided to compile a comprehensive registry of all the existing Nutting Associates Computer Space machines that are still alive in North America -- and I need your help. I feel that it is important to the legacy of this revolutionary arcade game, and the history of videogames, to establish the wherabouts and condition of the remaining systems. If either you, or someone you know and love, is in possession of a Computer Space (working or not) please contact me with the following information: .............................. model: (one or two player) color: (red, green, blue, gold, or custom) controls: (buttons, joystick, pistol-grip, etc.) serial#: (stamped on back-plate) owner: (name) location: (city and state) condition: (working or not) comments: - contact info: (optional) If you have an image of your game, please send it as an attachment .............................. This list will be published as a reference for all Computer Space collectors and updated annually. Please feel free to forward this message to ANYONE and EVERYONE you feel may have insight as to the location of a Computer Space machine. Any assistance in locating these machines will be greatly appreciated you will no doubt be relentlessly thanked by me for your help. Best regards, van burnham ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === > BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ........................................................................ for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page(a)wired.com van(a)wired.com van(a)futuraworld.com pingpong(a)spy.net vanburnham(a)aol.com

27 years, 9 months

4
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IBM AT Piggyback Memory

by Marty＠itgonline.com

I've never seen any other pc that used these 128k (64k dip dram piggy-backed) chips. Regarding the numbers of the chips, they were standard 64k dip drams, the IBM part number is long lost on me. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/19/98 4:22 PM In rummage through the dark recesses of my garage (too densly packed to let in light) I again ran across an IBM AT motherboard that used the piggyback memory chips. Were there any other computers that used these things? Also, does anyone know the numbers of the two chips that were soldered together? ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct19.162239.1767.70774; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:22:39 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id NAA09647; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:20:38 -0700 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id NAA50650 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:20:26 -0700 Received: from coyote.rain.org (root(a)coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id NAA31 532 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:20:24 -0700 Received: from rain.org (s14.max2.sb.rain.org [198.68.144.197]) by coyote.rain.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA11746 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <362B9EBA.D74807C3(a)rain.org> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:19:06 -0700 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory References: <199810202000.QAA01233(a)armigeron.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

27 years, 9 months

2
1
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discrete transistors

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

In fact, it seems there are mainframes faster than even a 486-33. So, I guess Intel outran the mainframe systems only recently. > >If one looks at the Linpack benchmark, the CDC 6600 was almost twice as >fast as a Sun 386i/250 (info lifted from ><http://lithos.gat.com/docview/linpack.bb>). > >> BTW, what did the Cray I use? > >The Cray-1s used simple ECL chips - I think there were only four types in >the whole machine. > >William Donzelli >william(a)ans.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

5
7
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discrete transistors

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

> >< But you can't build a *system* with that overall density. > >Long standing problem but, the military did have machine approacing that >density. Consider that once you got over a certain size it was less >imporant to be small. > What about 386s? Did Intel outrun the mainframes with the 386, or were there discrete transistor machines with better performance than that? BTW, what did the Cray I use? >Yep. > >I disagree that a 286 had more raw cpu performance than some of the big >transistor machines. I still remember the BOCES/LIRICS KA10 running some >300 users. I've never seen a 286 run more than 4. Same applies to IBM >2060s. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

3
2
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TOPS-20

by mbg＠world.std.com

>>[Has anyone USED TOPS-20?] > >I'm using it, right now. To send this message. I've used TOPS-20 in the past, and recently got a guest account on a -20 based system. I have to admit I prefer TOPS-10 over TOPS-20 any day, but reasons why could inflame a 'religious' war... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Belly laugh on eBay

by Marty＠itgonline.com

That wasn't the first p of s IBM delivered. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Belly laugh on eBay Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/19/98 3:40 PM This item description on eBay says it all: 36111353 Collectible IBM PS/1 Type 2011 BWAHAHAHAHA! Kai ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct19.154052.1767.70755; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:40:52 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id MAA25925; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:34 -0700 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA19986 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:26 -0700 Received: from mail5.microsoft.com (mail5.microsoft.com [131.107.3.121]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id MAA17 074 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:26 -0700 Received: by INET-IMC-05 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id <VBTZ1YQJ>; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:22 -0700 Message-Id: <FFD1BA74C6A7D111A09500805F9F88F50720B045@RED-MSG-43> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:21 -0700 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Kai Kaltenbach <kaikal(a)MICROSOFT.com> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Belly laugh on eBay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

27 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

TOPS-20

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< > [TOPS on a PDP-10 is a *MINUS*?] < < > What? You're kidding, right? What is wrong with PDP-10s?

27 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

TOPS-20

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Every so often, people here mention how they wish they had TOPS-20 < on their modern computers, how much superior it was to UNIX, etc. < COuld someone please explain the specific features (apparent to a < user) that are missing in UNIX? If I understand correctly, TOPS takes It's been 27 years since I ran TOPS10 but the differences can be summed up as a better human interface at the command line level. I've always considered the unix command line userhostile. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190/thread drift

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< What do you mean it was done with 386s? There were boards to put 386s in XT machines. I have one, an Intel inboard386pc. It replaces the 8088 (the 8088 has to be removed). There were others made. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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RIP Jon Postel

by rax＠warbaby.com

October 17, 1998 I REMEMBER IANA Vint Cerf A long time ago, in a network, far far away, a great adventure took place Out of the chaos of new ideas for communication, the experiments, the tentative designs, and crucible of testing, there emerged a cornucopia of networks. Beginning with the ARPANET, an endless stream of networks evolved, and ultimately were interlinked to become the Internet. Someone had to keep track of all the protocols, the identifiers, networks and addresses and ultimately the names of all the things in the networked universe. And someone had to keep track of all the information that erupted with volcanic force from the intensity of the debates and discussions and endless invention that has continued unabated for 30 years. That someone was Jonathan B. Postel, our Internet Assigned Numbers Authority, friend, engineer, confidant, leader, icon, and now, first of the giants to depart >from our midst. Jon, our beloved IANA, is gone. Even as I write these words I cannot quite grasp this stark fact. We had almost lost him once before in 1991. Surely we knew he was at risk as are we all. But he had been our rock, the foundation on which our every web search and email was built, always there to mediate the random dispute, to remind us when our documentation did not do justice to its subject, to make difficult decisions with apparent ease, and to consult when careful consideration was needed. We will survive our loss and we will remember. He has left a monumental legacy for all Internauts to contemplate. Steadfast service for decades, moving when others seemed paralyzed, always finding the right course in a complex minefield of technical and sometimes political obstacles. Jon and I went to the same high school, Van Nuys High, in the San Fernando Valley north of Los Angeles. But we were in different classes and I really didn?t know him then. Our real meeting came at UCLA when we became a part of a group of graduate students working for Prof. Leonard Kleinrock on the ARPANET project. Steve Crocker was another of the Van Nuys crowd who was part of the team and led the development of the first host-host protocols for the ARPANET. When Steve invented the idea of the Request for Comments series, Jon became the instant editor. When we needed to keep track of all the hosts and protocol identifiers, Jon volunteered to be the Numbers Czar and later the IANA once the Internet was in place. Jon was a founding member of the Internet Architecture Board and served continuously from its founding to the present. He was the FIRST individual member of the Internet Society I know, because he and Steve Wolff raced to see who could fill out the application forms and make payment first and Jon won. He served as a trustee of the Internet Society. He was the custodian of the .US domain, a founder of the Los Nettos Internet service, and, by the way, managed the networking research division of USC Information Sciences Institute. Jon loved the outdoors. I know he used to enjoy backpacking in the high Sierras around Yosemite. Bearded and sandaled, Jon was our resident hippie-patriarch at UCLA. He was a private person but fully capable of engaging photon torpedoes and going to battle stations in a good engineering argument. And he could be stubborn beyond all expectation. He could have outwaited the Sphinx in a staring contest, I think. Jon inspired loyalty and steadfast devotion among his friends and his colleagues. For me, he personified the words ?selfless service.? For nearly 30 years, Jon has served us all, taken little in return, indeed sometimes receiving abuse when he should have received our deepest appreciation. It was particularly gratifying at the last Internet Society meeting in Geneva to see Jon receive the Silver Medal of the International Telecommunications Union. It is an award generally reserved for Heads of State but I can think of no one more deserving of global recognition for his contributions. While it seems almost impossible to avoid feeling an enormous sense of loss, as if a yawning gap in our networked universe had opened up and swallowed our friend, I must tell you that I am comforted as I contemplate what Jon has wrought. He leaves a legacy of edited documents that tell our collective Internet story, including not only the technical but also the poetic and whimsical as well. He completed the incorporation of a successor to his service as IANA and leaves a lasting legacy of service to the community in that role. His memory is rich and vibrant and will not fade >from our collective consciousness. ?What would Jon have done?? we will think, as we wrestle in the days ahead with the problems Jon kept so well tamed for so many years. There will almost surely be many memorials to Jon?s monumental service to the Internet Community. As current chairman of the Internet Society, I pledge to establish an award in Jon?s name to recognize long-standing service to the community, the Jonathan B. Postel Service Award, which is awarded to Jon posthumously as its first recipient. If Jon were here, I am sure he would urge us not to mourn his passing but to celebrate his life and his contributions. He would remind us that there is still much work to be done and that we now have the responsibility and the opportunity to do our part. I doubt that anyone could possibly duplicate his record, but it stands as a measure of one man?s astonishing contribution to a community he knew and loved. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup.

27 years, 9 months

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Plessey Periph. Clone

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Re: Tim Shoppa's last message. When I had this machine running, it would attempt to boot from the Floppy (when asked to do so from ODT). The problem at the time (which still exists) was I had no bootable media in said floppy drive, thereby eliciting continued head loads, at about the tempo of a dirge. Clic, read, 'nothing here...' clic, read, 'nothing here...' clic, read.... Had I known Then what I know Now (grateful thanks to Tim and Megan and Allison) I could have made a bootable disk on one of the other machines, and gotten it going. Aaron's problem is classic Catch 22... and I have just now freed up some weekend time to perhaps assist him in that regard. Note to Aaron: the Docs you gave me are In Process, and will be returned to you when complete. Cheers John

27 years, 9 months

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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< So don't underestimate the power of a micoprocessor. We < just bring them unde a yoke, no 'real' processor ever < har to carry. Oh, I don't. I've said Z80s are not as shabby as some of the latterday retrorevisionists would think. I've never seen a i286 running anything (OS) that really used all the raw power in any useful way other than in embedded tasks. That view come from mostly ISA bus PC implementations while interesting are really not best possible performance. At the other end of the line there were some monster transistor based systems that offered stellar performance at a price. Some of the SSI (small scale integration) IC machines of the late 60s bumped up those numbers or shrank/lowered their cost. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>> Maybe you mean MHz? :-). Sorry, ads where sellers claim >> spectacular milliHertz performance are one of my pet peeves. (Along >> with specs calling for compatibility with the ASC-2 character set >> and construction plans calling for DB-9 connectors!) Though it would >> be an interesting exercise to construct a Pentium II-type computer >> based on relays just so that it does top out around 300 milliHertz! > >No thanks... I don't have a dozen spare telephone exchanges for parts ;-) If one were to estimate the number of transistors in a penitum II at 100 million (?), then if an exchange has ~three relays per number, you would get 300,000 relays in an exchange, which means 334 exchanges with a few spare parts left over! >> example, everybody around the world uses the term "metric ton" when >> the perfectly acceptable (and SI-preferred) term "megagram" is >> exactly equivalent (and to my ears sounds better!) And why say The reason is that using scientific notation/unit prefixes requires more calculation if one is not well practiced. While 90 decibels versus 900 decibels shows the relationship clearly (for those that know what a log is), 90 decibels vs. 90 bels is not quite as simple for some. >90 decibels (what's wrong with 9 bels?) >1000 millibars (= 1 bar. I was told by an idiot teacher at school that >the 'bar' as a unit of pressure did not exist. A lot of books claim it >does, though). Has anyone read the book "Innumeracy"? It mostly deals with debunking the concept of probability, but it is interesting in other respects, too. BTW, would you say 'kilobyte' is a misnomer? THe number it signifies isn't 10^3, it's 2^10. For a feeble attempt to get back on topic: was kilobyte always accepted as 1024 bytes? >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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Anyone got specs for an Atasi Model 638 HD?

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

It's a large MFM device, makes interesting noises, known good, but one of the little animals (students) thought it would be k00l-rad to nuke the CMOS. Anyone got numbers for this thing? -------

27 years, 9 months

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TOPS-20

by franke＠sbs.de

> [TOPS on a PDP-10 is a *MINUS*?] > What? You're kidding, right? What is wrong with PDP-10s? Correction: PDP is a minus not TOPS :) Maybe I'm just not _the_ big fan of the PDPs. Maybe I'm just to /370ish :) Gruss H. P.S.: Unix also runs on PDPs - for better or worse -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Odd Meas. Units

by jpl15＠netcom.com

How many of us (I don't) pronounce "giga" with a soft initial 'g' as is correct..? [Back to the Future used to drive me crazy until I found that the writers were right...] I have a 2.5 Farad @ 450VDC capacitor bank... takes an hour to charge, but delivers many Joules into a low-impedance load. Sometimes quite spectacularly! If the load is a solenoid, many Tesla are produced as well. I used to know the speed of light in Furlongs per Fortnight. If you wish to piss off the counter help at your local parts shop... ask for a 'Light-Emitting Resistor'. Hardware stores and markets have them too. I maintain several movie theaters in connection with my Work.. when asked (by newbies usually) how much power the sound system is in the largest one... and I am in one of those Moods... I will sometimes answer "About 11 RMS Horsepower..." And speaking as an audio geek... if a Pentium-class processor were made out of relay logic... imagine the *sound* it would make! I have many recordings of old telephone switchrooms.. especialy interesting are the large urban Crossbar offices... nothing yet I have heard makes that kind of sound. Finally, I have heard that a 'Millihelen' is the amount of beauty required to launch just *one* ship. Cheers John

27 years, 9 months

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RX50's on a PC?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 17, 18:22, Tony Duell wrote: > Subject: Re: RX50's on a PC? > > > > Has anyone tried wiring an 8" RX52 floppy straight to a modern PC > > controller? I did the best I know how, and I *appear* to have a > > What on earth is an 8" RX52? There are 8" RX01s and RX02s and 5.25" RX50s > that I know about. Never heard of an 8" RX5x drive. I wondered if the reference was to something like the General Robotics double-sided RX02-compatible, but ISTR that's called an RX03. The drive is a standard SA800-compatible, and the controller emulates an RXV12, except that it has a firmware formatting routine. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 9 months

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Unsubscribe

by baxtertk＠dlu.edu

> ---------- > From: William Donzelli[SMTP:william@ans.net] > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, October 19, 1998 11:05 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: discrete transistors > > > What about 386s? Did Intel outrun the mainframes with the 386, or were > > there discrete transistor machines with better performance than that? > > If one looks at the Linpack benchmark, the CDC 6600 was almost twice as > fast as a Sun 386i/250 (info lifted from > <http://lithos.gat.com/docview/linpack.bb>). > > > BTW, what did the Cray I use? > > The Cray-1s used simple ECL chips - I think there were only four types in > the whole machine. > > William Donzelli > william(a)ans.net >

27 years, 9 months

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Unsubscribe

by baxtertk＠dlu.edu

> ---------- > From: Ward Donald Griffiths III[SMTP:gram@cnct.com] > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, October 19, 1998 11:34 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: TOPS-20 > > Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > > I think what most people lament is that 20 years later, Unix still > doesn't > > have the user friendliness of TOPS-20 nor are we likely to see anything > like > > it any time soon. > > > > -spc (Yea yea yea it could be done, but doing it right (or even > reliably) > > under Unix is a real pain ... ) > > Well, nobody's stopping anybody from doing a TOPS-20 lookalike for > current hardware. Linus Torvalds did his. (And as the old quote > goes, Unix is just as user-friendly as any other operating system, > it just isn't so promiscuous about who it's friendly with). You > could do a TOPS-20 "shell" over Linux or you can do your own kernel. > You decide. Never used TOPS-20 myself, though I'd like to try it > sometime, Eric Raymond speaks highly of it even though nowadays he > mostly hacks Linux and has even convinced my wife into installing > Red Hat onto an otherwise unused Pentium-90 box so she'll learn > skills not included in her nursing education. > -- > Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/> > > When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any > firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright >

27 years, 9 months

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TOPS-20

by franke＠sbs.de

> [Why is TOPS-20 so much better than Unix?] > Umm... It runs on a PDP-10? Thats a Minus..... > Seriously, now, I like the idea of being able to > [DETACH CONTINUE] > [^T] > [^C^C] > [CONTINUE] > Various other nice things too... Tja that's the problem with Unix - minimal service and no inteligence providet :) To support a solution like above, The OS must be aware of the user at all time and special keycodes have to be reserved for the OS. Personaly I also prefere more inteligent OSes - BS2000 for example offers the same functionality. Press the K2 key and the programm is interupted and the OS prompt comes up - get information, even start orther tasks - use any OS command needed (maybe without loading a new programm into your task, since this will destroy the old :). And because the debugger is just a set of OS commands, you're free to poke around ... Sigh. Brave old world :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Finds still available in MD

by mtapley＠swri.edu

All, I spotted the following at the Village Thrift Store in Laurel, Maryland (on the north side of 198 about a mile west of the Baltimore-Washington parkway). I was travelling and couldn't pick them up, but one of you may want to take advantage of them. TI-99/4a. In box. The box was bent and crushed a bit but all there. The unit looked to be in good shape. There was packing materials, manuals, power supply, rf modulator, speech synth module. It was the silver version. I didn't test it, but nobody would take that much care with packing everything back up if it weren't working. I think the tag said $12.90. I sort of wish I'd grabbed this. Mac Plus: with KB, no mouse. Security attach point on back. System unit powered up nominally, but I just tested the main unit, not the KB (no boot floppy, no HD). PS/2 looking thing but narrower and with a montor attached. Didn't look at this much. Assorted 386 etc. boxes. Hope that helps someone! - Mark

27 years, 9 months

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PC cassette port info

by rhblake＠bigfoot.com

Someone out there had the technical reference for the original IBM PC model 5150. I need the pinout for the cassette port if possible. TIA Russ Blakeman Harned, KY

27 years, 9 months

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8088 for free (well kinda)!

by ArfonRG＠allSPAMERSmustDIE.Texas.net

Hey, I have a Hyundai Super 16 computer (no keyboard or monitor) that I need to get rid of. It has an 8088 Processor, an MFM? 5.25 floppy, a full height hard disc, a disc controller card (8-bit), an EGA? video adapter and a dirty case. I hate to waste something that someone else might be able to use so, if you want it email me at: arfonrg(a)allSPAMERSmustDIEhorribly.richmond.infi.net (remove the "allSPAMMERS..." stuff). Thanks, Arfon

27 years, 9 months

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discrete transistors

by franke＠sbs.de

>< used in the 7000-series computers to SLT (hybrid integrated circuits on >< ceramic substrates, first used in System/360 in 1964). > Yep. > I disagree that a 286 had more raw cpu performance than some of the big > transistor machines. I still remember the BOCES/LIRICS KA10 running some > 300 users. I've never seen a 286 run more than 4. Same applies to IBM > 2060s. It's a thruput problem - if the main CPU has to handle every byte in and out, you're just doomed. Just about calculating (Additions per second etc.) a 286 can catch up. It's more about the I/O concepts and devices. Add a versitale IOC and blockmode operations and you could run dozends of users on a 286. Even when using a clumbsy unix like byte orientated OS. And wehn using applications, specialy designed to be aware and operate in blockmode even a hunded might be possible. Ten years ago I designed a small 286 system to act as a terminal/dial up server running a stand alone aplication and accesing a database/transactionsystem running under SIEMENS BS2000 (an /390 compatible system) - in a testrun we had up to 64 users with an accestime below 1s per full screen, with up to 12 concourent requests, even including the mainframe transaction (needed in about 70% of all requests). And still only a CPU usage of less than 20% on a 6 MHz 80286! To be honest, this system had a little helper - all serial I/O has been handled by an I/O subsystem with one Z80 for each two ports - only if a reciving transmission was completed the 286 had to act - and for sending only the data had to be transmited to the Z80 memory window via DMA. The host connection was based on a 230 kbit serial line also operating in a kind of blockmode, using a HDLC like multiplex protocoll. The neat thing was that the OS was just linear and message driven - no real time and no preemptive multitasking. Everything was just so fast that a cooperative sheme did work out quite well. So don't underestimate the power of a micoprocessor. We just bring them unde a yoke, no 'real' processor ever har to carry. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Hmm... If I'd seen that out of context, I'd have assumed it was 1000 < millifarads, not microfarads. Over here, we'd write that as "1000=B5F" That was the point. the user of uf instead of MFD was late '60s when I started noticing it. It's still sometimes used. < 1000mF =3D 1Farad :-) But I know what you mean. I used to have some ol < 50mfd 450V caps --and they were big, in those days. I still do. Actually part of the scaling things of capacitor values is related to the way they are used and the math for RF circuits. Also caps are generally two significant digits just like resistors and that is related to the common 20% tolerance applied to them (10% for resistors). I was more used to using number like 10^6 (megahertz) and 10^-12 pF from my RF days. < Err, I think there's an extra "0" in there somewhere, Allison :-) Damm, he lied. Actualy just a dumb typo. ;) Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 18, 21:17, Allison J Parent wrote: > Subject: Re: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 > < But this doesn't explain why some units are not common even in scientifi > < fields. Like the millifarad, for example. > > This is because that is an odd size 1000mF (10^-6) is rather uncommon Hmm... If I'd seen that out of context, I'd have assumed it was 1000 millifarads, not microfarads. Over here, we'd write that as "1000?F" (if using ISO 8859-1 or Unicode character set) or possibly "1000uF" ("u" being the ASCII character that looks most like "mu") or possibly even "1000mfd" (often found on old circuits). > when standard values and notation came about. Back then a 50mF cap was > a large value! It was the advent of transistor circuits and their lower > voltage power supplies that 1000mF were common. Then again we see caps > now in the full Farad sizes. 1000mF = 1Farad :-) But I know what you mean. I used to have some old 50mfd 450V caps --and they were big, in those days. > Then again from a womans point of view, it may be that 1400mm sounds > bigger than 5 and a half inches. ;) Err, I think there's an extra "0" in there somewhere, Allison :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 9 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190/thread drift

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< bit small! Nothing on the scale of the Pentium II has ever been < achieved with transistors, never mind relays, and I'm sure they < tried. For example, it would be possible to place transistors at < 1 per cubic inch, and have the cool adequately, but it's clearly Your unaware of many systems of the 60s that were large on performance and transistors. Your one transistor per cubic inch is far to low. I've worked with cordwood modules that were more in the 6 per cubic inch. Even flat boards were fairly dense. What is missed if the PII uses transistors where other logic systems would employ resistors, capacitors and pulse transformers. Also CMOS requires two transistors to do what can often be done with one using alternate forms of logic. What would be hard to attain is the extreme speeds and that is limited by incterconnections. Putting a few or alot of transistors on one die is not a speed matter in itself. The shrinking of the interconnectivity IE: shorter wires is! When machines got to the Cray speeds the length of wires was an issue as electrons propagate at 1ns a foot. To put that in perspective a PII running at 333mhz is clocking at 3ns! Distributing high speed signals around computers is an art, still. < never been attempted, because if it were, there would be boxes < to plug into a PC XT to get Pentium II speeds. The XT bus and IO are slow, even using a PII would be slowed. BEsides it was done using 386s... Allison

27 years, 9 months

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COMPUTER SPACE REGISTRY

by altair8800＠hotmail.com

Van, You may get a good response if you also post your request to the newsgroup <rec.games.video.arcade.collecting>. Bob Wood ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by dburrows＠netpath.net

>< I believe that "mmg" is still used as a prefix in medical fields, >< but here it means (as far as I can figure out) "millimicrogram". >< Can someone correct me on this (I'm sure I'm wrong!) > >A friend is a toxicologist and with it isn't PPM it's picograms/liter. > In the environmental testing field PPM, PPB and PPQ for part per quadrillion are standard. Also nanogram, picogram and even femtogram are standard terms for Mass spec. injection amounts. Current Mass spec. detection limits are in the VERY low femtogram quantities. Dan Burrows dburrows(a)netpath.net

27 years, 9 months

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VCF on CNET

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

At 02:57 PM 10/18/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Yah! The Vintage Computer Festival was immortalized on television. > >It aired on CNET Central on the USA network this morning at 6:00am. You >might be able to catch re-runs of it this week on local stations. Its the >last segment of the show. > <snippage> ...also, (tho I have not seen the segment yet) CNET placed links to the VCF website and my Computer Garage web site on the CNET Central site. (don't know if the sites were specifically mentioned in the segment) But, a LOT of people have been watching, at least if I can guage anything by the number of emails I have received since yesterday mentioning the CNET segment. I suspect that I'm going to be referring a number of these people to the list, since nearly every one of them has been asking about new homes for old gear! (after I cull out the neat ones of course... B^} ) Overall... COOL! -jim --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

27 years, 9 months

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