- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Oh and by the way I have the manual sitting on my desk right now (actually on top of my scanner). If you're still interested I could scan the 7 pages of the glossary and BASIC syntax guidelines and place it on my wed site tonight (I wanted to do that for several machines anyway). There is also 5 pages of error codes right after that (If I have time I'll set it up too) Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Megan <mbg(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 6:16 AM Subject: Re: HP85 - need info > >Sorry about that... I thought the person had replied to me directly... >that'l teach me to check the headers... > > Megan >

27 years, 9 months

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HP85 - need info

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Hey it's OK maybe others will be interested in the discussion Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Megan <mbg(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 6:16 AM Subject: Re: HP85 - need info > >Sorry about that... I thought the person had replied to me directly... >that'l teach me to check the headers... > > Megan >

27 years, 9 months

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HP85 - need info

by mbg＠world.std.com

Sorry about that... I thought the person had replied to me directly... that'l teach me to check the headers... Megan

27 years, 9 months

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HP85 - need info

by mbg＠world.std.com

I picked up a working HP85 this past weekend at the MIT flea... The person I got it from told me that he had 8 or so of them at the beginning of the day, and some of them had IEEE options and manuals, etc... Anyway, I have no manual for it and I was hoping someone might have one they could either make a copy of for me, or provide some information about the machine. Please contact me off-line. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 9 months

2
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HP85 - need info

by dogas＠leading.net

Hi Megan, I've got a hp-85 manual *somewhere* that I'll try to find... in the mean time, to get you started: DISP = PRINT (to screen) CRT IS x PRINTER IS x where x = device code: 1 for screen or 2for printer so, you can prints to screen and screen output to printer.... try LDIR 90 and then a PRINT/DISP for some coolness as well.... I'll look for the manual - Mike dogas(a)leading.net -----Original Message----- From: Megan <mbg(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 11:51 PM Subject: HP85 - need info > >I picked up a working HP85 this past weekend at the MIT flea... > >The person I got it from told me that he had 8 or so of them at >the beginning of the day, and some of them had IEEE options and >manuals, etc... > >Anyway, I have no manual for it and I was hoping someone might >have one they could either make a copy of for me, or provide >some information about the machine. Please contact me off-line. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >

27 years, 9 months

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MS-DOS type-ahead buffer limit?

by dogas＠leading.net

I think the the type ahead buffer is just a ring buffer config'd with a few bios values and easily reprogrammable... more info available if needed... - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 9 months

1
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Classics I'm Interested In

by Innfogra＠aol.com

Bill; I am on the Board of Directors for the Oregon Country Fair and this is a very busy month. I am on the road a lot and often unable to reply. I just returned home. I got your message and will call you tomorrow. The Cromemcos have all been sold as have the Smoke Signal Broadcasting systems. I still have Tek, Viewpoint 2 Software & the wavemate Jupiter. Looking through an early Byte I ran across a Jupiter 7 running a high res monitor. Since this has no model number and is all wirewrap I suspect this is an early prototype. Paxton

27 years, 9 months

1
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Odd Meas. Units

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

] The attoparsec/microfortnight is remarkably close to the inch/second. ] Quite useful for quoting tape speeds :-) A friend of mine once made a PostScript ruler scaled in attoparsecs. I just found it and slapped it into my web directory. Here's the URL: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/ruler.ap.ps Of course, this depends on your printer being accurate, but the "B" side is marked off in inches, so you could at least compare with a trusted ruler to see if your printer needs adjustment. Um, PostScript is classic, isn't it? :-) Cheers, Bill.

27 years, 9 months

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wafers , dice, etc.

by jim＠calico.litterbox.com

Intel DOES sell the individual dice as keychains. The most beautiful wafers are the ones that have gone through the gold layer, but I've never seen those for sale. I seem to recall someone getting one as a plaque for service above and beyond the call of duty at one point, but that was the only time. Blanks and old 4 inch wafers used to be for sale at a gem dealer in Los Altos on San Antonio Road. They had some 4 inch wafers, some 4 inch crystals , ends of crystals, and so forth. -- Jim Strickland jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? -----------------------------------------------------------------------

27 years, 9 months

3
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Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by roblwill＠usaor.net

> > silliness of the phrase "partial vacuum" repeatedly... I'll completely > > leave out the concept of "vacuum leak"!) > > Oh, I've been known to say 'That valve (tube) is white round the top. > Somebody has let the vacuum out' > > Seems like quite a reasonable way of putting it :-) > > Try explaining how important a tight vacuum system on a mass spectrometer is > to some PHD chemists. Not to mention how to find the leaks. It is amazing > how little they teach in "leading" colleges today. Definately NO common > sense. So often all the problem consists of is the last thing they worked > on but did that enter their mind? > Dan > > I'm 15 years old, and even I know that a leaky tube [in a radio] reduces the sound quality, the loudness (depending if it's an amp tube or not), reduces the life of the tube, possibly can cause a short in the tube, and can possibly weaken other components. a leaky tube in a TV will occasionally cause a bad (or no) picture. I think the only reason that I know this is that I collect antique radios. maybe I'm just odd... -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318

27 years, 9 months

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Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by dburrows＠netpath.net

> >I think the only reason that I know this is that I collect antique radios. >maybe I'm just odd... >-- > -Jason >(roblwill(a)usaor.net) > ICQ#-1730318 Let me know if you are in need of any particular old tubes. I still have a lot that are new in the original boxes and some more used ones. I just could not trash them - nostalgia I guess not to mention that they are getting much more difficult to find. For the hobbyists I would only ask that you cover the shipping. Commercial use would be different. Dan Burrows dburrows(a)netpath.net

27 years, 9 months

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Commie stuff for sale

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Here's some stuff being offered up for sale. Please CONTACT THE SELLER, not me. I'm just passing this along... Reply to: al2(a)acpub.duke.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:55:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Anthony Lagnese <al2(a)acpub.duke.edu> > On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Anthony Lagnese wrote: > > > Wow, I was hoping for prices like these for the 64, 1200, and monitor... > > > > $15 for the C64. > > $20 for the Amiga 1200 > > $5 for the printer > > $1 for the 5.25 drive > > $10 for the monitor

27 years, 9 months

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Emulation or the real thing?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

heh, that sounds like a cool idea. then you could have fix-it contests similar to what one car company did. they'd mess something up on several cars and then teams of young mechanics would race to diagnose and fix the problem first. just dont forget to make the program windont9x compatible. lol. In a message dated 10/20/98 8:01:31 PM US Eastern Standard Time, dastar(a)ncal.verio.com writes: > SO how long is it before some really enthusiastic hacker creates a 3D > emulator using a graphics engine like that in DOOM, that allows you to pop > open the cover and go INSIDE the machine, home in on specific ICs, > resistors, capacitors, etc. and stick a probe or voltmeter up to the > leads? Basically, it would incorporate a CAD system with a SPICE system. > You could then get really agressive and add a toolbar that has a probe, > voltmeter, soldering iron, solder, and a whole warehouse of parts (74xx > series TTL, resistors, caps, transformers, transistors, etc) so you can > make hardware mods to the system. Later on, when they invent the Scent > Printer (a device which emits the smells of the computer you are working > on) you'll be able to know when you've shorted something because all of a > sudden a foul, toxic cloud will be emitted.

27 years, 9 months

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Emulation or the real thing?

by roblwill＠usaor.net

> > I don't think this is so much of a fantasy. Its a lot of work, but it > could be done (ok, save for the Scent Printer part). > well, if you could convince one of those "automatic air freshener" companies that sell the mist things to make a unit that would give off "computer smells", you may be in business. just add a solenoid to the top of each aeresol can topus the button for that particular smell, wire them into a parallel interface, and you'd be in business. Just trying to convince them would be the fun part. Anyway, it's still better when you get to work with the actual equipment, and having the thrill of finding a 'scope in the trash and fixing it, or finding scrap parts, throwing something together, and possibly building the next Cray - complete with 46 K RAM, and a 20 MB HD - all for under $30, and housed in an old washing machine - also pulled from the curb :^) -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318

27 years, 9 months

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Emulation or the real thing?

by dogas＠leading.net

I prefer the original systems... The tactile response from an IBM PC keyboard, the design elegance of an Atari 800, the iterative building of a screen dump on a HP-85.... this list goes on and on... Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 9 months

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Odd Meas. Units

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> Is there some landmark "first commercial use" of the classic T1-3/4 >> individual LED package that's so common today? Were there early >> LED packages that just completely disappeared? >I've used LEDs on what seemed to be a TO18 header (like a 2N2222 >transistor) with an epoxy top. I've also seen an LED (the number MiLED >500 springs to mind) in a clear TO92 package. Neither are common today. Are LED's in TO18 cans with epoxy tops completely gone? I've certainly seen them used in the past couple years in optical emitter/sensor combinations. Tim.

27 years, 9 months

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Emulation or the real thing?

by david_a._vandenbroucke＠hud.gov

Gareth Knight says: >Which do you prefer, the original system or an emulation? For what purpose? I like to have the older boxes and mess with them >from time to time. I get most of my real work done on new machines. Emulators are a lot easier to store! Dav Vandenbroucke Economist U.S. Dept. HUD david_a._vandenbroucke(a)hud.gov

27 years, 9 months

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TOPS-20

by mbg＠world.std.com

> Well, to be technical, there is a program for Unix to do this called >`screen'. It's actually pretty nice in that it gives you 10 virtual >terminals, allowing you to switch between them (Ctrl-A <number>) and >cut-n-paste as well (defaults to using vi keybindings---use Unix enough >and you'll get used to it). You can also detach the session and >reconnect to it later (and the program will continue to run even if it >does TTY I/O). Sorry, this doesn't make it at all... the original poster was talking about the ability to detach a job from a controlling tty, but having it continue running. And at a later time, from an entirely different terminal, allowing the user to reattach that detached job to a new controlling terminal - in fact, you are given the option of attaching to the detached job when you log in, so you don't have to log into a new session, then attach the job. > That's more a function of the shell than anything else. I think there >is a Unix shell that will do that (or could be told to do that). >Granted, if you're in some other program it won't work. actually, it was implemented at a lower level - the terminal input interrupt service. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 9 months

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Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by franke＠sbs.de

> But Allison does NOT make those kinds of errors. That's part of what > makes it so notable and what makes it so irresistable to chide her when > she does make a typo. She ? ? H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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ebay: Microcomputers and Memories book

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Ah, but for those of us with a documentation deficiency, no experience, >and a brand-new interest in DEC, this is pure gold. Keep in mind that my >first "real" computer, when I was a kid, was an Atari 800XL (not counting >the Vic20 I played around with when I was 6)... Point taken... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 9 months

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UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> I think this shows that organising a UK-VCF would be a bad idea at the >> moment. And for me to organise one, losing all the money I'd have to put >> in would be a very bad idea. Just ask Salam about his profits (please don't tell anybody, but a friend of a friend of my uncle told me that Salam will buy out Bill Gates soon and then declare himself ruler of the world) >> Oh well. It would have been an interesting idea. > Yeah, and given the geographic spread of the people that did reply, even a > pub meet would be out of the question. Jep, just for 3 hours would be a bit short - I'll think you have to change your horrible pub opening hours. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Is mhz == MegaHertz or is mhz == milliHertz? < If so, that could be why this machine seems SO slow. MegaHz 10^6, milliHz 10^-3. aka typo. however part of standard usage would dictate MHZ and mhz being the same unless the context was extremely slow events. Now if it were MHy and mHy the assumption would be 10^-3 as a million Henry inductor is very unlikely. Things like this tend to be somewhat self checking. Actually 386sx/16 is pretty speedy of the memory bus is wide. I have a DELL 316sx that runs Minux like gangbusters. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Coax cables with velocity factors of 0.66 are in wide use. And in < some very specialized areas - especially the world of delay lines - Right. I was thinking antennas... don't ask! < coaxial cables with velocity factors of less than 0.10 are used. < These cables are extremely expensive and somewhat fragile, as their < center conductor is a coil around a ferrite core, < rather than a plain copper wire. Over the years I've made my own delay lines for various projects. Tedious but saves a bundle! Common use was delay for vertical on O'scopes, radar (calibration!) and dram timing. Allison

27 years, 9 months

1
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discrete transistors

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

My point was that only recently has it become so that there is nothing more than an Alpha or an PII. There are many parallel implementations, but nothing like the difference between an Altair and an S/360. Yes, I know there are many computers way more powerful than CompUSA desktops, but the point is that they're just parallel implementations and there isn't so much of a class distinction. >Irrelevant to the discussion for two reasons: > >1) No one has made mainframes out of discrete transistors since the >late 60s. > >2) Almost all modern mainframes are based on monolithic microprocessors. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

1
0
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Odd Meas. Units

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> Wait...all matter resists current, and all matter can be forced to > emit light, so any item is a 'Light-emmitting resistor'. One of the early April 1 issues of BYTE (1975? More likely 1976) has the specs for a "noise emitting diode". If I remember the definition: "When connected across high voltage, makes a large noise (once)." When did LED's begin wandering out of the solid state physics labs and into commercial products? I remember individual LED's in the very early 70's, and by the mid-70's they were everywhere in the form of 7-segment displays. Is there some landmark "first commercial use" of the classic T1-3/4 individual LED package that's so common today? Were there early LED packages that just completely disappeared? Tim.

27 years, 9 months

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Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>MegaHz 10^6, milliHz 10^-3. aka typo. however part of standard usage >would dictate MHZ and mhz being the same unless the context was extremely >slow events. Yeahbut the same people who put "mhz" in ads are the same folks who talk about the "ASC-2" character sets and "DB-9" connectors. Just because they're common errors doesn't mean that I'm going to repeat them. (Reminds me of Bill Kavanagh at Caltech, who pointed out the silliness of the phrase "partial vacuum" repeatedly... I'll completely leave out the concept of "vacuum leak"!) Tim.

27 years, 9 months

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TOPS-20

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Well, that's just what I was asking about. What do you mean by 'user friendliness'? A built-in debugger is not high on my list of user-friendly features. Also, how is the TOPS base 'stronger' than UNIX? Does it have more calls, or what? >> [Why is TOPS-20 so much better than Unix?] >> >> Umm... It runs on a PDP-10? >> >> Seriously, now, I like the idea of being able to DETACH CONTINUE something, >> log in from elsewhere, re-attach my job, and continue without stopping the >> job (Unless is tries to do TTY I/O, then it has to wait). > > Well, to be technical, there is a program for Unix to do this called >`screen'. It's actually pretty nice in that it gives you 10 virtual >terminals, allowing you to switch between them (Ctrl-A <number>) and >cut-n-paste as well (defaults to using vi keybindings---use Unix enough and >you'll get used to it). You can also detach the session and reconnect to it >later (and the program will continue to run even if it does TTY I/O). > >> And, Unix doesn't >> have ^T. This gets Status. If you think your program has hung or something, >> pressing ^T does a line like this: >> 07:49:28 MM IO wait at .TEXT1+17 Used 0:00:21.8 in 2:34:21, Load 0.80 >> (I just pressed ^T into MM and retyped what it printed) >> This means that MM is waiting on I/O at .TEXT1+17 (which is a label defined >> in the program. If you wrote the program, this is significant.) >> You also get the used CPU and connect times, and the system load. >> Unix doesn't do this, and I wish it did... > > That's more a function of the shell than anything else. I think there is >a Unix shell that will do that (or could be told to do that). Granted, if >you're in some other program it won't work. > >> Also, if you suddenly decide you want to go poke at your program's interior, >> you and ^C^C it and say DDT, and (provided you know how to operate DDT) it >> will snag the program you just stopped and let you play with it. Or, if you >> do this accidentally, you can say CONTINUE and it will go along like >> nothing happened. > > Now that is a nice feature, and it might be possible to munge that into >Unix as well. But that's the main problem with Unix---all these features >are munged onto a pretty weak base and people have gone so long without >these features that Unix weenies tend to dismiss them as breaking the >`simplicity' of Unix (brain death is more like it 8-) > > I think what most people lament is that 20 years later, Unix still doesn't >have the user friendliness of TOPS-20 nor are we likely to see anything like >it any time soon. > > -spc (Yea yea yea it could be done, but doing it right (or even reliably) > under Unix is a real pain ... ) > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> So did you take the non-UK replies out ? Even if the english >> like to ignore it, Europe is just a short hop away :) > You were the only non-UK reply and you were one of the five. Oops. Not much of an audience ... Sad - so, lets fix the pub hours. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

1
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Mainframes vs PCs (was Re: discrete transistors)

by backofene＠hotmail.com

I don't know what they had at the Cape, but a reliable source once told me that the onboard computer had only 48K of RAM since it was considered too expensive to go to 64K. Eileen > >Back to classic computers, it has been said, perhaps apocryphylly(sp?), >that "My laptop has more computer power than NASA used to put men on the >moon." While it may be true, I've never actually seen a description of the >computer resources available to NASA between 1962 and 1969. Does anyone on >the list have that information? > >--Chuck > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

2
1
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discrete transistors

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Signal propagation in cables is less than speed of light (c) and can be >as low as 75% in some coax style cables. Coax cables with velocity factors of 0.66 are in wide use. And in some very specialized areas - especially the world of delay lines - coaxial cables with velocity factors of less than 0.10 are used. These cables are extremely expensive and somewhat fragile, as their center conductor is a coil around a ferrite core, rather than a plain copper wire. Tim.

27 years, 9 months

1
0
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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I expect this was almost essential; all of the wiring between circuit < cards was on the inside of the circle, and the customer engineers had to < able to get to that wiring. True. < I suspect that the reason Seymour Cray built the machine in the shape h < did was that the circuit cards, plus the machined columns that supporte < and cooled them, were wider than the card connectors. By arranging the < card columns in a semi-circle with the connectors on the inside, he coul < minimize wiring length. It was a design requirement that no signal path would exceed 1 meter. It also allowed signals like clock to be distributed in a way that assured all parts were geting the same drumbeat at the same time. If it were a linear layout it would easily be several meters long and the signals from either end would have cables long enough to insure the data was way late. Signal propagation in cables is less than speed of light (c) and can be as low as 75% in some coax style cables. So if you have a 3 meter cable and you putting pulses out at the rate of one every 3nS you can literally have three pulses traveling down the wire like golf balls in a tube! If that pulse is your sychronizing clock you can see that when it gets to the end of that 3meter wire it's late (by two pulses) compared to the logic at the beginning of the wire. This is a handicap for ultrafast systems but it can be useful for storing data too (delay line memories and timing elements)! So this is why big and fast do not go well together. It also was an advantageous layout for cooling and power distribution. It made for an unusual looking machine with a lot going on down under the subfloor! Customer engineers were not that fond of it as it tended to be cold in the middle! This phenomenon is seen and known at the chip level and influences how the logic is organized on the die for super fast logic. Allison

27 years, 9 months

1
0
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ebay: Microcomputers and Memories book

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< For all you DEC people, this sounds like an interesting book. The < description is "Microcomputers and Memories" (1981, DEC, 662 Pages, < Softbound). < < http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=35707674 It's a must have for anyone hacking Qbus PDP-11s, peripherals commonly used with PDP-11s and even user designed hardware! I have the 1982 version and it's well used! Allison

27 years, 9 months

1
0
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Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

I should include the more regional measure: NewYork Second: That is the infinitesmal time between the light turning green and the cab horn going off behind you. Allison

27 years, 9 months

1
0
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discrete transistors

by John.Dykstra.jdykstra＠nt.com

>Motorola claims to have started shipping ECL integrated circuits in 1962. >Why were people still building computers using discrete transistors for >years after that? Many of the high-end computers used discrete >implementations of non-saturating logic that was very similar to ECL. Most of the early IC production went into defense electronics, especially missile guidance computers. Even after IC's were commercially available, they were quite expensive, even in production quantities. IBM continued to ship new SLT-based designs when their competitors were moving to IC's, and they were the target of some marketing hype as a result. However, IBM had tuned the circuit design, packaging and manufacturing processes for SLT so well that they could get more performance per dollar out of SLT than anyone could get out of IC's. (Source: Pugh, Johnson and Palmer, "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems", MIT Press.) ---- John Dykstra jdykstra(a)nortel.com Principal Software Architect voice: +1 651 415-1604 Nortel (Northern Telecom) fax: +1 612 932-8549

27 years, 9 months

1
0
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Emulation or the real thing?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< >As this forum is based upon Classic Computers I have a < >theoretical question for you all. < >Which do you prefer, the original system or an emulation? Emulators have their place where hardware is scarce or extinct. What you can't do with an emulator is make the disk drive buzz out a tune or hack the DMA logic as a simple blitter. Hardware has aspects, some very tactile, that emulators can't. Also if the emulator doesn't know the proposed hardware it can't. I'd love to see an emulator that could imitate a s100 z80 system! I do use an emulator, MYZ80. However I find that I end up copying the work to my s100 crate, ampro, visual or kaypro in the end. Allison

27 years, 9 months

2
1
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Emulation or the real thing?

by franke＠sbs.de

> As this forum is based upon Classic Computers I have a > theoretical question for you all. > Which do you prefer, the original system or an emulation? An emulation can never produce the genuine beep of an Apple ][ at power on, never, no, not now and not when using 128Bit 32 chanal thousend times oversampling :) Just the beep - and now go for all the other fun things. Gruss H. P.S.: Did I mention the ratatatak when retracting the Disk ][ heads ? -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

1
0
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UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)

by franke＠sbs.de

>>>> Oh well. It would have been an interesting idea. > well I'd be interested, but the big problem's transport at the moment. > Give me a couple of months and then ask again :) Transport ? Rent a car, open the door, put in the computers, as a friend to push you in and close the door and drive - or do you want to display a 1:1 Univac rebuild ? >>>> Yeah, and given the geographic spread of the people that did reply, even >>>> a pub meet would be out of the question. >>> Jep, just for 3 hours would be a bit short - I'll think >>> you have to change your horrible pub opening hours. > well rumour has it that they might be changing. At the moment all you > need to do is find a good pub with a decent landlord who isn't bothered > about closing at the official times. It's not difficult! So, are we about do get a micro-VCF (only SBCs are alowed) in GB within the next few month ? I'm in for shure. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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discrete transistors

by franke＠sbs.de

> My pet peve is the IBM PC when launched was clocked at a rather poor > 4.77mhz when most of the s100, multibus and generally everyone else > that went with 16bits were looking for 8mhz or faster if possible. > It saved a few dollars but not enough. At least DEC had a z80 in > there to also do IO (instead of the IOC). Jep, Even the Z80 was at 6MHz at this time - But to be honest we have to agree that the basic design of the PC was just intended ans a more flexible terminal, and this basic design was enhanced for the PC... >< P.S.: The hate-segmentation-rantig against the x86 also drives >< me mad - the segmentation sceme used is a very good compromise >< between usability and performance. Loosing up to 15 Bytes >< per segment isn't realy a drawback compared to granularities >< of 4 or 8K today ... > To me segmentation was just another bag on the side to get 16bits to > address more. Jep right, and a very andsome way to deliver relocable adressing and simple memory management. > The other half is that MMU granularity makes sense for its time but with > modern OSs eating megabytes for the kernel Even segments don't allow > enough. :)))) Unix and MS ... H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Emulation or the real thing?

by mbg＠world.std.com

>As this forum is based upon Classic Computers I have a >theoretical question for you all. >Which do you prefer, the original system or an emulation? For me, the real machine is more important. An emulation is a poor replacement (especially if it has to run under Microsoft-anything). But with some hardware being in very short quantity, an emulator can fulfill a need. I'm in the process of working on a pdp-10 emulator, but that is not to say that I would turn down real hardware... my only problem right now is lack of space. I definitely could not handle a KA, KI or KL... but a KS? Good possibiliy... the disks are another problem, however. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 9 months

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Tops-20 and ^T

by pechter＠shell.monmouth.com

BSD derived boxes have the ^T status available... see below from my Freebsd 2.2.7 box (AMD 586/133) Script started on Tue Oct 20 08:42:46 1998 #134 i4got:/home/pechter>^T load: 0.22 cmd: ksh 15420 [ttyin] 0.03u 0.06s 0% 472k Script done on Tue Oct 20 08:42:54 1998 Bill (wishing for both Tops-20 and Vax/Vms on my pc) +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

27 years, 9 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> BTW, would you say 'kilobyte' is a misnomer? THe number it >>>signifies isn't 10^3, it's 2^10. For a feeble attempt to get back on >>>topic: was kilobyte always accepted as 1024 bytes? >> What drives me crazy are the marketroids who round-up twice >> in order to inflate the capacity of hard drives. > What annoys me is the 1.44Mbyte floppy disk. The only way to get that > capacitiy is to define 1Mbyte = 1000*1024 Bytes. Ugh! > The famous 65K memory chips/boards of years gone by grated on me as well > (they were, of course 64K boards with 65536 locations). Just remember the Ataris: 64XL, 130XL, ST260, ST520, ST1040 :)) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Political and off-topic (was Re: discrete transistors)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> terminals...sometimes I wish capitalism was never invented... > Well, since only essentially capitalist countries have ever invented > useful products of any kind and computers are useful... Hmm so where you put in war time Germany ? It was organized more like the later SU but the same time a whole lot of inventions and 'fist' things hapened ? > Of course, the US is more socialist every week since 1933. Geeee - come on - its maybe becoming more and more fuzzy, but socialism is way, way the other direction. Gruss H. (And to come on topic again: did you know that they had some real neat computers in the east before they switched to strict cloning in the 80's ?) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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IBM AT Piggyback Memory

by franke＠sbs.de

>> In rummage through the dark recesses of my garage (too densly packed to let >> in light) I again ran across an IBM AT motherboard that used the piggyback >> memory chips. Were there any other computers that used these things? > The Apple /// 128K memory board used 32 pieces of standard 16K DRAM, and > 16 pieces of 32K (stacked 16K) DRAMs. > Several TI calculators including the TI-58 and TI-59 use stacked DIPs for > RAM. > The HP-41CX calculator uses stacked DIPs for ROM and RAM. The first Atari ST520+ and 260+ used stacked chips. Atari decided short before delivering the first units that they had to double the RAM size (Never woundered why the 260+ had 512K and the 520+ had 1Meg ? 260 -> 260 decimal kBytes and 520 -> 520 decimal kBytes, both numers are rounded in favour for the marketing .) Ther have also been real 260s and 520s with 256K and 512K. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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discrete transistors

by franke＠sbs.de

> < It's certainly *possible* to add intelligent I/O channels to an x86 mach > The hottest machine I've played with was a hacked xerox XP12 laser printer > controller. It was a 8mhz 8086 and a 8089(IOP). It could beat any 8086 > system cold (using s100 and multibus systems as standard). Later I would > see a 8086 multibus system with two 8089s running CPM-86 and it was far > faster than the then new AT. Thats it - I still go mad when people are ranting about the x86 architecture (kind of popular) but they never tried to understand the features, or they never seen the whole family. In fact, Intel designed the 86 as part of an chipset in a very mainframe like way - A general purpose CPU: 8086, a specialized floating point add on: 8087 and a versitale IOC: 8089. A structure as found on most mainframe at this time (Remember, also IBM offered their customers to get specialized add ons to improve floating point performance on the /370). Since IBM used only the CPU and FPU, the actual PC design is exact like a Mainframe without an IOC: Just painfull slow. Gruss H. P.S.: The hate-segmentation-rantig against the x86 also drives me mad - the segmentation sceme used is a very good compromise between usability and performance. Loosing up to 15 Bytes per segment isn't realy a drawback compared to granularities of 4 or 8K today ... -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)

by JRichardson＠softwright.co.uk

>>> Oh well. It would have been an interesting idea. well I'd be interested, but the big problem's transport at the moment. Give me a couple of months and then ask again :) >> > Yeah, and given the geographic spread of the people that did reply, even >>a >> > pub meet would be out of the question. >> >> Jep, just for 3 hours would be a bit short - I'll think >> you have to change your horrible pub opening hours. well rumour has it that they might be changing. At the moment all you need to do is find a good pub with a decent landlord who isn't bothered about closing at the official times. It's not difficult! cheers Jules

27 years, 9 months

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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< performance on the /370). Since IBM used only the CPU and FPU, < the actual PC design is exact like a Mainframe without an IOC: < Just painfull slow. My pet peve is the IBM PC when launched was clocked at a rather poor 4.77mhz when most of the s100, multibus and generally everyone else that went with 16bits were looking for 8mhz or faster if possible. It saved a few dollars but not enough. At least DEC had a z80 in there to also do IO (instead of the IOC). < P.S.: The hate-segmentation-rantig against the x86 also drives < me mad - the segmentation sceme used is a very good compromise < between usability and performance. Loosing up to 15 Bytes < per segment isn't realy a drawback compared to granularities < of 4 or 8K today ... To me segmentation was just another bag on the side to get 16bits to address more. The other half is that MMU granularity makes sense for its time but with modern OSs eating megabytes for the kernel Even segments don't allow enough. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Belly laugh on eBay

by franke＠sbs.de

>> This item description on eBay says it all: >> 36111353 Collectible IBM PS/1 Type 2011 >> BWAHAHAHAHA! >> Kai > Sorry to differ, but from a collectors point of view the 2011 is > unique. I don't know how rare it is but it is certainly rarer than the 5150. Yep, collectors are more different then dogs and cats.... > The item offered is of course useless because the power supply is in the > monitor unit. IBM calls it a 286 work station and it functions fine in that > capacity with a good display. And IBM sold tonns of them - at least over here. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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128k Mac Schematic needed

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

well, i have no schematics, but i do have a spare power supply board if anyone needs it. In a message dated 10/17/98 9:45:31 PM US Eastern Standard Time, nerdware(a)laidbak.com writes: > My 128k Mac went south on me. When I first got it a year ago, it turned on > and > the screen came up and asked for a floppy. Not having a system disk that old, > I > just put it in storage until I came across one. > > Needless to say, next time I turned it on the floppy made funny noises and > kept spitting the disk out and no video. > > Does anyone have a schematic for the little beast so I can get it cooking > again? If I have to, I can use my Mac Plus for my history presentations, but > I > would rather use the original, if possible.

27 years, 9 months

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Educational subsidies

by franke＠sbs.de

>> (Mr. Lamb also had two 64s there, sharing a miserably overworked 1541. :-) > The influence of schools on computers is interesting. Atari managed to crack > the German educational system and as a result the best programs for the Atari > ST have come from Germany. I would like to agree, but the situation was quite a bit different. First of all until the end of the 80s there was almost no official state programm to put computers in every school - some schools did it on their own, with city or parrent founding. Around 88/89 all states had programms, but they soly founded IBM alikes. In the early 80s, computers at school have been Comodore. almost nothing else. PETs, CBM 3000's and 4000's. Later on also C64. Some schools (especialy in Bavaria) switched later on for AMIGAs. Atari never had a big hit (beside from single schools) with their STs in education. BUT the ST hits the private and small bussines market in Germany like a Blitz. Low price, good performance and especialy the superior b&w crt made it possible. Later on the SLM widened the gap once more. Until Atari failed to offer real upgrade machines (the Megas where just new cases) Atari has been the single biggest PC manufacturer in the home/small buz market. And with programms like Calamus they hit the DTP market from below (the beautiful b&w crt was just like an invitation)- Apple could have had learend a lesson, but they prefered to shrink their share. > Programs such as Steinbergs Cubase and > E-logic's Notator started out on Ataris partly because of it's music > capabilities but mainly because of it beimg the machine so many Germans began > with. They were both ported to Wintel and Mac. Another example is Calamus the > desktop publishing program. Jep, but the Musik thing was just insired by the build in MIDI ports. Almost instantly after apearing, independant musicians started to develop Software for the ST - lots of them never had any programming experiance at all - just fascinated by the idea to have a free programmable MIDI controler for less than 2000 Mark. Still today, Atari is a must for music making. Ataris 'power without the price' philosopy meets the market completely right. They just failed to dig further for gold. The AMIGA, later on, never catched the ST in the 'professional' market, only in the home/games area - Here Commodore had the advantage of the C64 and the fact that most students had an Commodore (PET, CBM or C64) as first computer in school. > To this day Germany is still the center for most > Atari ST activity and where the new clones are coming out of. Jau - and I'm eagerly waiting for my Milan-060 :) But don't forget about France where Atari is also still strong - And Holland of course. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Belly laugh on eBay

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

This item description on eBay says it all: 36111353 Collectible IBM PS/1 Type 2011 BWAHAHAHAHA! Kai

27 years, 9 months

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