- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by headcase＠eclipse.co.uk

When collecting vintage/classic computers it would seem to me that the apparently much sort after Altair 8800 is the Model T to the Intellec's R.R. Silver Ghost. At the time - 1974 - I thought the Altair was a very very cheap copy of my very very very expensive Intellec - and I still do! But then I would, wouldn't I? Have I fallen for all the eBay hype or have I've been wrong all these years? Jim Bunting - headcase(a)eclipse.co.uk M.V. Great Gull, Double Locks Hotel, Canal Banks, Exeter Ship Canal, Exeter, Devon, U.K. EX2 6LT. Phone No. 44 (0) 1392 493311 (On Board)

27 years, 9 months

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AY 3500

by ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 528 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981023/99150e56/at…

27 years, 9 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Wire wrap?...hmmm I have problems with that in ohmic losses even the < connections is good, soldering them helped a bit but no dice. Huh? I have 6 cards, s100 protoboards with about 25-40 pieces of mos and TTL on them that I wrapped in 1981 still running. Ohmic losses? What were you doing wrong. Remember #30 is for signals not power! < Have data transfers done with DMA, all memory mapped and irq driven < to knock subCPU as needed to grab data then place it in CPU's lap. < Leave CPU alone for processing. How about that? Those 6 boards built a multi z80 system with DMA and slave processors for things like IO and disks. It helps but the z80 bus is so busy that it's very hard to slip inbetween cycles so you steal cpu cycles by holding it off with BUSRQ/. Z280, z8000 and Z380 use burst mode access to the bus so that other devices can get in and get a few cycles without holding up the cpu. Even with slaves you reach a bottleneck between memory management and overhead to move data around. Still the results with 6mhz z80s were enough to blow away 386/16 class machine for text oriented applications. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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PDP-11/70 rescued!

by Innfogra＠aol.com

What third party Unibus disk controllers are you looking for. I may have some non DEC controllers. I also have an HSC50, 5 RA81s, an RA60 and a TU 81+ in Portland Oregon that I am interested in selling. I think I have a couple of Eagles for sale too. I also have a VAX 730 with R80 & RL02 for sale. Paxton

27 years, 9 months

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PDP-10 arch question

by franke＠sbs.de

> < What machines have had bit pointers? > 8051. There may be others. Wasn't the 432 able to adress whole Objectspace as Bits ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Wow - thats it - I 've been already eaten up by megagraphics. >> So, anything I could Imagine was to reduce graphics to ASCII >> ... but Yo thats it Hamurabi ! >> Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? > Mine's at home, but I do happen to have a version I ported to the PET > in 1978 that is sitting right here on my SPARCstation disk. I've got > xpet, and a directory full of my old tapes that I converted to .d64 > emulator disk format. I'd post HAMMURABI.BAS, but I suspect that more > than one person would get annoyed. If anyone _really_ wants a copy, I > can provide one. It depends on logical statements working as follows: > The statement C=(A>B) would set C to 0 if A weren't greater than B, and > would set C=-1 if A were greater than B. Not all micro BASICs support this. > I'm pretty sure Applesoft is onethat does _not_. Hmm shure ? I have to admit that I don't remember (stupid meone). But I think it will . After all Applesoft is jsut another MS-Basic. I'll try as soon as I'm back home. I'll post the result. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Bid list

by Innfogra＠aol.com

In a message dated 10/23/98 5:54:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dburrows(a)netpath.net writes: << > BURROUGHS > >23879724 G 300 VIDEO BOARD ET110 $5 ?Terminal cards for a 8 bit PC? >283531-006 G 2 1351 CONT CCA ??? don't know what it is These are Color Graphic Adapters for the PC ISA bus >2993-0666 G 295 WER SUPPLY $5 to $8 >3388-7498 G 169 KEYBOARD ASSY $5 >AP1351 G 5 PRINTER, AP 1351 If this is a complete printer $10 to $15 Small serial printer, 9 pin dot Matrix. >B28CPU G 1 CPU I think a 286 CPU for the Convergent Engine series, small box computers. It may need drives to make it work. >E2817B39-HT G 62 CRT $5 considering that they will have to pay to dispose of to meet EPA regs. >ET-1100 G 9 TERMINAL $5 to $10 Disposal costs as above. > >Any ideas? >> More terminals than I care to deal with. Be carefull with you bidding, there can be a lot of bulk wiith this stuff. Bid slightly over the scrap price unless you can't live without it. If you can't live without it bid 30% maybe. Watch your quantities. Paxton

27 years, 9 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education

by franke＠sbs.de

> You play the game like this: > 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. > 2) Scout for (surface) deposit of iron ore and start mining ore. > 3) Using Coal + Ore build Pig Iron > 4) Using Pig Iron build picks and shovels to increase your > mining efficiency. > 5) Build Smelter/Foundry > 6) Locate lime and concrete develop cement. > 7) Collect Sand and use with cement to build an iron casting apparatus > 8) Using the sand casting build a steam boiler and steam engine > 9) Using the steam engine and iron casting build metal stamping > 10) Using Steam engine and metal stamping build rail road. > 11) Start mining below ground and locate Copper. > 12) Build a copper foundry. > 13) Using metal stamping build wire puller (makes wire) > 14) Using iron, and wire build generator. > 15) Using generator create electricity. > 18) Mine tungsten and build lightbulb. > ... > First one to a PDP-8 wins :-) What about creating a Game ? Of course all Graphics has to be ASCII :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< WIRE_WRAP!?!?!?! ICK! I usually pull out my cheapo PCB CAD program.... < A little laser-printer transfer plastic and an exacto-knife. the best you can do with that is two sided and that might run at 25-40MHz and that's pushing. < I cannot believe that there can be so many extremely complex processors < there running up to 667Mcyc (Alpha) and there not be any simple controll < with far less transistor counts that match or exceed those speeds. < There is no way we can get 600Mcyc clock speeds out of a 10,000,000 < transistor chip but can't get at least that out of a 100,000 transistor < chip. It all that complexity that permits parallelism of functions. The simpler machine are limited by the very direct and limiting propagation delays of gates. < As for the Z-80 vs Alpha features.... I like: < < 1) I/O ports. I hate the memory map stuff. (yes, I know it is the wa < things are done now) Memory mapped ops even with Z80 allow you to do things like OR data with a device or AND data from a device or use the BIT ops to test a bit in the device. None of which the IN or OUT can do directly. when you only have 64kb memory mapped hurts some. When you have 4Gb so what if you give up a meg to memory mapped IO. FYI the PDP-11 is also memory mapped and uses it to very good advantage! < (((((((THE Z-BUS!!!)))))))) (not the Z380 bus, that's almost as hosed a < the Alpha bus). < Do the Z-80 bus but with the data size control lines that I explained < above.... (or keep a 64 bit data bus and run a local bus into a 'DMA' (f < a lack of a better word)... Wait! A bus mastering device!!!! (<-- bett < word).) Zbus give advance status of the transaction to occur, that information is handy for tweeking the memory to make it get there in time instead of wait states. Z80 bus has a high bus bandwidth and poor bus utilization and this shows up when you have DMA peripherls. I'm not bombing z80, I happen to like it and have used it for 20+ years! I'm realist enough to know it's limitations and weaknesses and I can understand why the z380 is the way it is. Personally I happen to like the z280 as the user/system spaces make the 64k limits far easier to work with and also offers some speed with the 16bit bus, cache and a paged MMU while not locking the bus. The Z180 is a good compromize and easy to work with at low speeds, at 20+mhz it's a bear as the world around it has to keep up. It's not like using the z80 at 4 or 6mhz any more when you notice that the decoding dealys and the buffering delays are are a significant part of the system timing. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Book Source

by rax＠warbaby.com

A while back, someone posted a great source for used and out of print books. I've lost the URL and can't remember the name - could someone please repost it? Thanks R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup.

27 years, 9 months

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Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> But after all where is the sense of having a Z80 as 64 Bit >> processor ? It's a well usable 8/16 Bit processor. Even the >> 380 isnt realy an advantage - you just don't realy need this >> 32 Bit instructions. A set consecutive 16 Bit instructions >> can do it in almost the same time. From my point of usage >> a 16 Bit uP is anything you need - compact code, compact data > Well, it might be fun to redo TRS-80 Level I BASIC with 32-bit > instructions. (No way would I try to do that with LDOS/LS-DOS -- > it's already perfect). But just tell me where 32 Bit instructions can be usefull ? In fact, I can't think of any part inside a BASIC. But the higher clockrates are a nice thing - and maybe the z180 for 3.0 style bankswitching. BTW: LDOS - I have a Modell III with external HD - hasn't there been an LDOS to boot from ? (I'm not the deep TRS guy). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Linix is free, but it still costs money. >> You need a computer, need a CD, need other HW. >> You need a Distribution CD >> And a little time. >> Shure, you can just get it over the Web ... and pay $$$ >> just for transmission ... and the needed time. >> And after thet you need time to install ... >> TIME IS MONEY. >> Linux is free but not without cost. > ** OR ** > You could get someone to burn you a CD copy, or find someone willing to > give away their old distribution CD. I was able to get a copy of RedHat > 5.1 burned for $5. I'm sure you could find someone fairly easily who > would do something similar. > I ran across a web page that listed people with old distribution CD's who > would either give them to you or let you borrow them. What I want to point out is that the price of a OS isn't just the package you buy at a shop. It's about the time you spend in installing and trying and reconfiguration etc. So, to come back on topic, the best for a TRS-80 emulator is still DOS. Install it, or even boot >from a Disk. You could even put the emulator and DOS and some TRS-Apps on one 1.44 bootdisk. And best of all - Disk access will be Disk access. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Bid list

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>That's because only several thousand PDP-8's were ever produced. Doug Jones's FAQ estimates the production run over the -8 family's lifetime at about three hundred thousand. See http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/dec-faq/pdp8/faq-doc-6.h… for more detailed breakdowns. Tim.

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was >> going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get >> it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file > Linux? Money? Heheheh. What stone have you've been hiding under junior? > LINUX IS FREEE, MAN! Linix is free, but it still costs money. You need a computer, need a CD, need other HW. You need a Distribution CD And a little time. Shure, you can just get it over the Web ... and pay $$$ just for transmission ... and the needed time. And after thet you need time to install ... TIME IS MONEY. Linux is free but not without cost. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Bid list

by cmcmanis＠freegate.com

Its funny, I read through the list, crossing my fingers and hoping for a PDP-8 core stack, and 90% of it is PC junk. Then I kind of laughed because of course that stuff will probably be "collectable" for my daughter. Assuming she decides to collect computers. Although if history is any measure then she'll probably collect Pentium II machines since that will be the "hot" machine that she can't afford (stuck with a measly 75Mhz P5 :-) Another factiod registered which is PC collecting is going to be *much* more of an art than say mini-computer collecting is because the technology is changing soooo quickly. In case you haven't noticed there is a certain temporal component in the PC compatible space where the hardware, and more importantly the software, are tied together at their release dates. "Visual BASIC, Win 3.1, Borland C++, 486/66" they make a set. Use this stuff on a Pentium and it won't use half the features, use it on a 386 and it won't run acceptably. And how "long" was the 486 PC window? Perhaps 3-5 years? Compare that with the utter contempt with which people treat 486 motherboards (3 for $5.00 at Weird Stuff Warehouse) and you realize that these things are headed for landfill big time. Along about 2010 or 2015 and trying to put together a representative 486 system from the "early 90's" is going to be damn near impossible. Look at the PDP-8's which spanned 15 years of production and are now pretty difficult to get hold of. I don't know if I should laugh or buy an old Dell 486 box and wrap it up in plastic and dessicant and save it for 20 years. --Chuck

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by roblwill＠usaor.net

I'm searching for a TRS-80 emulator for the Model III. I need it to be able to use disk images (such as LDOS), and boot from them. ThAnX, -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 PS>> The only reason that I need the emulator is to make LDOS, and a few other programs for the Model III - not to imitate having an actual III :^)

27 years, 9 months

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Linux on-track topic (was RE: TRS-80 emulators)

by jsalzman＠hersheys.com

Sounds like they have buying power greater than Wal-Mart's to offer such pricing. Either that, or they have exclusive rights to manufacturer or publisher overruns or defects. Jeff Salzman ------------------ "If Taelons had hair, would Du'uh be a blond?" >Haven't all you hard-core Linuxers bought from www.linuxmall.com yet? I >have paid $1.49 for CD's of the last 6 distributions I've used. They also >sell major applications (Word Perfect, Star Office, Applixware) for less >than the source vendors. I think I got the Applixware student version for >~$50 a couple of years ago. Oh yeah, they also sell Oreily books cheaper >than Oreily... >

27 years, 9 months

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PDP-11/70 rescued!

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>While I don't regret rescuing this stuff, I have no clue how long it will be >until I could ever power this stuff on. The Hut has its own 60 Amp feed >seperate from the house, but 110/220, no three-phase power. I suppose I >could purchase/rig-up a 220V<->3Ph mechanical converter, You don't need three-phase for the equipment you got - if you look at the DEC power controllers, they just split out the three phase into three 120VAC circuits which power the individual boxes. Especially as you have MOS instead of core memory, 30 Amps will be plenty for a CPU, memory, and a couple of Fuji Eagles. Some big Massbus disks (and their Memorex and CDC mechanical equivalents) do need three-phase for the drive motor, but I didn't see these in your list. >P.S. ISTR that PDP-11/70's and VAX-11/750's use the same hex-height 39-bit >ECC memory boards. Is this true? Assuming you have the DEC MK11 memory boxes, yes this is true. There are also third-party memory boards available for 11/70's; my favorite are the board sets that pop into the 11/70's backplane and give you 4 Megs of cache memory, so there's no need for memory boxes! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 9 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> You play the game like this: >>> 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. > . > . > . >>> 14) Using iron, and wire build generator. >>> 15) Using generator create electricity. >>> 18) Mine tungsten and build lightbulb. >>> ... >>> First one to a PDP-8 wins :-) > Hey! I though about this for a grad project in History - build a computer > using Roman technology (metallurgy, etc., since the Romans didn't have > electricity). Just what do you want ? The Z1 was _complete_ echanical and was build by hand on a kitchen table - and used anything also known from modern computers, including binary floating point. >> What about creating a Game ? >> Of course all Graphics has to be ASCII :) > > Not on a PDP-8. There was a vector graphics board set. It used an > oscilloscope for a display tube. As was proven in a patent lawsuit > filed against Nintendo, video games did exist before Pong, just not > in the living rooms of America. Stop, my question was not about greating a game on a PDP. The intention was to build a computer game where building a PDP (or something like that) is the goal ... Such a basic build up an economy game like Civilisation etc. But instead of geting welthier all the time you have to build up a PDP as soon as possible Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Booklovers: Danger!

by Philip.Belben＠PowerTech.co.uk

Rax (Sorry, can't remember your real name) wanted to know, and it seems I kept the original message. Philip. ---------------------- Forwarded by Philip Belben/PTech/PowerGen on 23/10/98 13:10 --------------------------- classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu on 06/09/98 06:29:19 To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu cc: (bcc: Philip Belben) Subject: Booklovers: Danger! Maybe I shouldn't post this.... O wot'th'ell, here goes. I have discovered recently a very dangerous on-line book service, which, in my *very* humble opinion, just beats the bloody tar out of the 'major' ones.. (Amazon, Barnes, etc). Some of you Listmembers may already be aware of these folks.. if not, the URL is; www.abebooks.com I'm *definitely* in Big $$$ Trouble. I have a very large library, around 10K volumes, journals, periodicals, papers... collected over many years. A lot of it is old, wierd, rare, fringe-science, technology, engineering, computing, etc. Now I find ABE (American Book Exchange) and they've got titles I've been searching for for *ages*... including a book I read in 4th Grade and never heard of since... oh dear: most of the booksellers on ABE take credit cards... damn, damn, damn...! I've already found over $1K of stuff I must have.. NOW! Anyway, I hereby disclaim and hold myself inurred and harmless >from anyone who goes bankrupt because I turned them on to ABE. Just try searching with Van Nostrand or Wiley or Howard Sams entered in the 'Publisher' slot... or pdp-11 in the 'keywords' section.... I'm in **trouble** ! Cheers ;} John

27 years, 9 months

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Rare 1976 Intel MCS-85 System Design Kit

by franke＠sbs.de

> I don't know if it is rare, but it certainly sounds unusual. Current price > is $27.00 and the reserve has not been met. > Another interesting item from ebay. URL is: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=36318754 Go OFF it's MINE ! :))) In fact, it's not realy rare, zillions have bin made, but I still miss it. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

> That sucks (in my opinion). (You like my 16bit addressing? kinda make you > yearn for the good 'ol days when you programmed in hex! Like real men! No > sir! We didn't have no Visual Basic or C+++++++++! When we wrote a silly > like program, it was an accomplishment! (....but they still were silly > little programs.)). But I digress.... > I like: > IO port 0=Keyboard control > IO port 1=Keyboard data > IO port 2=Device 1 control > IO port 3=Device data > etc. Gee fine - back to the time when the CPU had to do any little pice of sh.. by itself - never asked why Mainframes can handle so much more date with the same tecnologie than PCs ? go back and learn. > Your response: "But, what if you need to transfer a big block of data like > a NIC? You really need to memory map that." > My answer: "Pretend that the IO addresses are memory. With a 128 bit > address bus, you'll never run out of spaces!" So waht now ? memory maped or I/O space There is ABSOLUTLY no sense in building a super fast CPU and then spending all time in I/O polling (or interrupt handling) Lets get real again. Gruss H. P.S.: in 1986 I had a 100 MHz Turing machine running - I bet it was one of the fastest computers at this time - Fast and Useless. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Hello Again

by franke＠sbs.de

>> In a recent telephone conversation with Tony Duell, he mentioned that >> someone (was it Kevan?) was thinking of doing a VCF in the UK. To that > I think you missed his posting where he said he had received only 5 > replies. So it looks like a non-stater. Gee - this is not an option. >> person: I am definitely prepared to support you. I can provide plenty of >> computers for exhibiting; I can talk on some suitable subject; I am >> prepared to chip in a fair amount of dosh to get this show on the road. > I'll also provide machines and a talk if anything comes of this. I will haul up one trunk of machines. > Alas I can't provide much cash at the moment... Hmm maybe s.o. should look out for a place (not nessecary as fancy as the Santa Clara Convention Centre :), and when we have actual numbers, we might try to put up the money. I don't have much availabe either, but I thing we can find a solution. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Bid list

by dburrows＠netpath.net

> >The only thing I saw of interest: > > BURROUGHS > >23879724 G 300 VIDEO BOARD ET110 $5 >283531-006 G 2 1351 CONT CCA ??? don't know what it is >2993-0666 G 295 WER SUPPLY $5 to $8 >3388-7498 G 169 KEYBOARD ASSY $5 >AP1351 G 5 PRINTER, AP 1351 If this is a complete printer $10 to $15 >B28CPU G 1 CPU >E2817B39-HT G 62 CRT $5 considering that they will have to pay to dispose of to meet EPA regs. >ET-1100 G 9 TERMINAL $5 to $10 Disposal costs as above. > >Any ideas? I put what I would bid by each item I could guess. I am not familiar with Burroughs equipment. Remember these are EACH prices. >There's also a ton of Apple ][ stuff like keyboards, power supplies, disk >drive mechs, etc. Great if you wanted to start a classic Apple ][ >restoration and repair business (providing the stuff is all new). That is why I thought this would be of interest to this list. If you note in the header of the list it is all in good condition. This historically means that it is surplus from a repair depot. The other condition code they have had in the past are as follows (pasted from the weekly bid list) CD CODE "N" = Never Used With No Factory Warranty. "G" = Used Material In Good Condition. "U" = Unknown functionality, RETURNS will be allowed ONLY if MISSING MAJOR components. "D" = Defective material with no returns allowed Dan

27 years, 9 months

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Bid list

by dburrows＠netpath.net

>Can you tell us more about the type of auction this is? Sealed bid >Is it one of those auction where you can walk away with a pentium for $5 YES On last weeks bid I won a VAX4000-300 for $82. a bunch if DIgiboards for $5.00 ea. Sorry everyone that has commercial value to me. >is it more of the upper type wher you pretty much have to be within 105 of >the retail valu in order to win it? Not at all. This equipment is from a new division that did not have a surplus sales group. Tha format was different than the usual bid lists so I called my rep. about last weeks list and they are hoping to get 5 cents on the dollar. Anything that does not sell will be going to be recycled as they are very carefull about EPA regs. >Have you had any experience with this sort of auction? I have been doing business with them for over a year. The regular weekly bids I rarely get good deals on - about 70% to 80% of wholesale are typical. The special bids like these are where I make out. I will admit that this equipment is not the usual type they offer - remember it is a newly acquired division. >What I'm getting at is I've seen a few things on the list that I like but >hve no idea what to bid on them. I would be sure to be over the scrap value (figure 50 to 75 cents a pound is scrap value) but based on the bid I won last week not more than 5% of wholesale new. >Also it seems like the terms for payement are very tight 2 days to send the >money or you're out how do you propose to proceed? Are you going to send a >"big" check for the bid and hope that everybody follow up on their bid? I still do not know why they put that in there. I actually have 15 days >from shipment to pay for it. provided I am not way above my theoretical credit limit and YES I am hoping that everyone will be following through because I will be stuck with the equipment if they don't. I have had some long discussions with a couple of people on this list about this and was informed that most everyone is quite honorable. Another note of interest I have only gotten the response for 1 of last weeks bids so far. It had to be in on monday and I got the response thursday (1 day late). Tuesdays bids were supposed to be released thursday. When I get the response to those bids I will let you know. Don't worry if I think any bids are to high I will let you know. I can only do this however on equipment that I am familiar with. For shipping considerations due to the amount I won on last weeks bid I have told them to change it to truck and gave them my account info for a major truck line, This is the first time I have had to change to truck shipping. Also for figuring shipping I am in North Carolina. Dan Burrows 336-376-0468 dburrows(a)netpath.net

27 years, 9 months

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Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> BTW: LDOS - I have a Modell III with external HD - hasn't >> there been an LDOS to boot from ? (I'm not the deep TRS guy). > The only "official" operating system for a Model III with a hard > drive _was_ LDOS. Also for the Model One. TRSDOS 6, later called > LS-DOS, was written by Logical Systems for the Model 4. (There > was also a version of LS-DOS for the Model II/12 series [8" drives] > but all of my copies were lost years back in a move, along with a > lot of other material related to those systems -- as Ben Franklin > once said, three moves equals one fire). Jep, but what about booting ? The only LDOS I have needs still to boot from FD. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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ARCnet...

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

I've got a box of them you can have for the shipping cost. I haven't checked lately, but I think there are like 8 or 10 or more in the box... >Arfon Gryffydd wrote: >> >> 2) Anyone have any old ARCnet cards they wanna get rid of??? > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!)

27 years, 9 months

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Bid list

by kyrrin＠jps.net

At 19:27 22-10-98 -0700, you wrote: >A little more information such as the equipment being offered would help >us decide if there's anything we want :) The list is on my page, Sam. It's huge! 330K plus. That's why we decided not to send it directly to the list. The URL for the primary page is in my sig line. It can be reached directly at: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin/bidlist.txt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 9 months

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Follow-up: Bid list

by kyrrin＠jps.net

The bid list that Dan Burrows mentioned is available for viewing on my web site. Look for the obvious link from the main page. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 9 months

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Bid list

by dburrows＠netpath.net

I am on a major computer manufacture's surplus equipment bid list. The list that came out today has a lot of equipment that would be of interest to people on this list. I am not interested in making any money from this all that I ask is that all costs will be covered. I will have to pay the shipping from them to me and that will needed to be figured into the final cost. I have just spoken to Bruce Lane about this and he is putting it on his web site. I would also ask that anyone that is interested in putting in a bid just email me with the line of interest and $ they want me to bid per unit. You can bid on any # up to the quantity listed. Please include your Phone # In case of any questions. If there are multiple bids on one item I will try my best to use the time of the bid to choose priority. I have no intention of making any money from this and hope people will understand if I get flooded I may have to cut things off. To give me time please let me know of any interest by Sunday Oct. 25 to give me time to reformat and sort everything for sending in the final bid by noon Monday. Also please keep any phone calls to before 10:00 PM eastern time. I try to keep peace with the wife :) Thanks Dan Burrows 336-376-0468 dburrows(a)netpath.net

27 years, 9 months

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FW: H8 computer

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Hey folks! I got this from the Heath reflector I am subscribed to. I already have an H8 that I built back in '83 so one of you should get it. I believe the SS-9000 Ron refers to is a Heathkit communications receiver (shortwave rcvr.) which can be controlled by computer. Have to check my old Heathkit catalog file on this. Email Ron directly. >Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:49:43 -0400 >Reply-To: Ronald Oxley <rtoxl(a)ANDREWS.EDU> >Sender: Heathkit Owners and Collectors List <HEATH(a)LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV> >From: Ronald Oxley <rtoxl(a)ANDREWS.EDU> >Subject: H8 computer >Comments: cc: heathkit(a)qth.net >To: HEATH(a)LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV >X-UIDL: 9c2d5417934b901b38c6fc24968d3523 > >For Sale: > >Heathkit H8 computer system. Includes computer, disk drive, terminal, >printer and software. Included with software is program for controlling >SS-9000 transceiver. Make offer if interested. > >73, >Ron, WM8Z > >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- >To subscribe: listserv(a)listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: subscribe HEATH yourfirstname yourlastname >To unsubscribe: listserv(a)listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: signoff HEATH >Archives for HEATH: http://www.tempe.gov/archives >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- > Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/

27 years, 9 months

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Lisa 2 or 2/5 I/O board wanted

by eric＠brouhaha.com

I'm looking for a Lisa 2 or 2/5 I/O board. That's the version of the board with the nicad battery pack; the 2/10 I/O board did not have the battery or supporting electronics. Actually I'd be interested in any spare Lisa parts at all, working or not. Cheers, Eric

27 years, 9 months

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L-DOS

by fauradon＠pclink.com

>> >I loved LDOS. It is my second-favourite 8 bit OS. My favourite (of >> >course) is OS-9. >> > >> >-tony >> > >> You've got to be a real masochist or something, I HAVE TO work with it and >> I'd give it away for any other OS. Unless you're talking about the COCO >> version which I heard was pretty good for the platform it was intended; OS-9 > >Note I said '8 bit OS'. That rules out OS9-68K, etc. I was refering to >the original 6809 version which is pretty darn good. Yes the it fits the description of being 20 years old and 10 years ahead (loosely:) > >-tony >

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file format of the disk image. -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 PS>> I'm also trying to find something that's not shareware (ie: can only emulate Mod I, and can emulate Mod III arfer $45 registration fee). ---------- > From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: TRS-80 emulators > Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 6:59 PM > > For what host? xtrs can emulate the M3, and on a linux machine it will > use physical drives, so presumably you can make disks for your real model > 3. xtrs runs under x on just about any unix machine. > > There may be emulators for other platforms that can do the same. > > A good place to start is Tim Mann's TRS-80 page. Search for that with > your favourite search engine (the URL is not to hand at the moment, alas). > > -tony >

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by roblwill＠usaor.net

For some reason, I thought Linux was like $50, or something. Just forget that comment. I'm downloading it now. -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 > > Bzzzt, Linux is free That means you don't need money to get it. Get it? > > >format of the disk image. > >-- > > -Jason > >(roblwill(a)usaor.net) > > ICQ#-1730318 > >

27 years, 9 months

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L-DOS

by fauradon＠pclink.com

>Incidentally, if anyone's interested in LDOS, the source code for (I >think) 6.3.x, along with disk images for the TRS-80 emulators are >availabe from Tim Mann's TRS-80 page. > >I loved LDOS. It is my second-favourite 8 bit OS. My favourite (of >course) is OS-9. > >-tony > You've got to be a real masochist or something, I HAVE TO work with it and I'd give it away for any other OS. Unless you're talking about the COCO version which I heard was pretty good for the platform it was intended; OS-9 is a dinosaur (and I don't mean a lean mean one) To quote one definition I read : OS-9 is a 20 year old OS that is 10 years ahead of it's time (for those who don't get it: it's 10 years outdated relying on reputation) Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by fauradon＠pclink.com

>Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was >going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get >it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file Bzzzt, Linux is free That means you don't need money to get it. Get it? >format of the disk image. >-- > -Jason >(roblwill(a)usaor.net) > ICQ#-1730318

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TRS-80 Model 4 I/O ports?

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< > It is good design in my opinion to have your address bus twice as wide With a 128 bit wide data bus for a predominatly byte oriented machine all that means is every memory cycle gets you 16bytes at memory cycle speeds. It's a bus bandwidth saving trick as it effectively can give what ever your word time is to put up another 16bytes. This goes back to the core days when memory was slower than the CPU. The penelty is a whopper when all your doing it altering or writing one byte as you have to resort to RMW (read, modify, write) cycle at memory speeds. The alternate is a lot of word/byte selection logic that can slow things down. With the upper speed of available z80s (z180s180) being 33mhz there is plenty of speed so that it can hurry up and wait for the disk, floppy and user. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Building your own Z80 / performance

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I have never tho't of the Z80 as a slow processor. I interfaced a Z180 < running at 18 mhz to a VGA board recently and using a C compiler was abl < build a machine that acted essentially like a 80286 running at 10 mhz. Inthe early to most of the 80s I've spent a fair amount of time using 6 or 8mhz z80s to blow the doors off of x86 hardware. The z80 is a better IO machine! < Z80 is a pretty cool platform for building an extremely cheap and modern < network computer since it acts a lot like a 16 bit processor. There's < you can do with it with a relatively minimal effort. The z280 is even better, the enhancements it has are pretty decent and it's faster still. Doing your own design in a FPGA is harder than would first appear. Unless your using a known core things like gate delays (race conditions) can bite you. Also some routing paths can be slower than others so you may get far less than the rated Tpd. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< As for the suggestion of using a DEC alpha to emulate a Z-80... I thoug < about it but, those darned Alphas are way too expensive for us hobbist Some of the early slow ones (under 200mhz) are in the used market for under a couple hundred. The other approches witll cost that much or more for superfast memory. < < Tell me more... what are Verilog, Xilinx or Altera? FPGA, Field programable gate arrays. The fast ones are down in the 2.5ns range per gate. < Anyone know if Zilog is going to beef up the Zx80 line???? The z380 series is that. There is already a z382. Allison

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Model 4 I/O ports - found

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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Hello Again

by Philip.Belben＠PowerTech.co.uk

Well, I'm back. And what a long time it took. Two weeks in the USA, seeing California and attending the VCF; nearly a week in bed with food poisoning after the flight home; and two weeks on this bl**** awful new e-mail software at work before I could get it to behave well enough to trust it with the volume of mail Classiccmp provides. (We're using Lotus Notes, BTW. Most of us now call it Lotus Not.) I really just wanted to say I thoroughly enjoyed the VCF. Well done Sam, a wonderful effort. In a recent telephone conversation with Tony Duell, he mentioned that someone (was it Kevan?) was thinking of doing a VCF in the UK. To that person: I am definitely prepared to support you. I can provide plenty of computers for exhibiting; I can talk on some suitable subject; I am prepared to chip in a fair amount of dosh to get this show on the road. Looking forward to a lot of fun again reading Classiccmp, Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel. Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel. Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst; Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben(a)powertech.co.uk

27 years, 9 months

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OT: Modern college educations

by franke＠sbs.de

>> A lot of discussion here on college educations, my 0.02. >> 1) I don't expect New College Grads (NCG's) to know a lot, I expect them to >> know how to find something out that they don't know and how to power >> through bull s**t type work. I also expect them to know the basic theory > Please note that the 2 people I was moaning about earlier (one wanted a > 362.83 Ohm resistor for his LED, the other couldn't grasp '5V across > 4.7kOhms is a little more than a milliamp') were EEs. Thats bad - he should at least have taken a class about resistor networks to build his needed one in a 3D configuration :) >> 2) I don't expect CS majors to be taught assembly, per se. In case you > Oh, IMHO all CS students should have some idea as to what the 'computer' > they are writing programs for actually is. And that means having some > idea of digital electronics and assembly language. I find using tools > that you don't fully understand is a darn good way to produce poor code > (or whatever). So, you're just talking about the usual way , and why languages like C++ are so popular ... >> A fun exercise (in a nerdly sort of way) is to presume you've been dumped >> onto some raw continent with nothing but your brains and underpants, now >> build a PDP-8. (You can assume that you will have food and shelter.) > Hmm... I'd rather build a relay logic machine. Drawing the copper wire > for the coils would be painful but possible. Similarly making soft iron > cores and armatures. A lot easier than trying to make transistors, anyway. In fact, I think I would try to go for a more mechanical device - so I don't have the problem to create a power source and _stable_ voltage wich again includes semiconductors or other kinds of very delicate equipment like mercury rectifiers. >> One of the things that struck me about a 'dead' PC I was attempting to fix >> was that the BIOS flash had been zorched and a) Not only was their no way >> to recover the bios but b) the chipset used was both non-standard and made >> by a now non-existent company who left behind no records. Talk about > Thankfully the BIOS on this PC is in OTP EPROMs, and I have the official > source listings anyway. Ditto schematics of everything but the hard disk. > This machine can be repaired. But independent of the chipset, one should be able to build a minimal start up BIOS to launch a real mode DOS and then a reprogramming is just some steps away. >> and get it working again, when the engine computer on your car breaks, your >> out of luck. > Why do you think that when I get a car I am _not_ having any electronics > anywhere enar the engine :-). Mechanical stuff I can understand and > repair. Electronics I can understand, but there's no way I could make a > custom chip at home. Thats why I still drive a 1988 Skoda Rapid - no electronics. Just imagine the finger print sensor of your new Mercedes S-class care goes wild ... (But on the other hand, a CX25 TRI, maybe as a 6 wheeler, is still a dream car ...) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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FS in UK - Intel & Cromemco Etc. circa 1974 & 1980

by headcase＠eclipse.co.uk

Thanks to all those of you who replied about the computer equipment I'm selling I read all the replies up to about second week in September but lost those together with a massive pile of un-read mail up to a few weeks back.. If you havent had a reply - sorry - over confidence or Bill's bugs - I still haven't figured out which I've sorted through all my computers and equipment and listed them on my web pages .http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/ together with photos etc The Intell, Addmaster, Roytron, Mesonix etc. stuff is on http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/sellintel.htm I have listed all the information I have, together with photographs of each item. Unfortunately I seem to have lost the folder containing all the original documentation but most of the stuff is circa 74/75. The Cromemcos and software stuff are on http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/sellcromemco.htm There are three working Cromemco Systems circa 1978 to 1984 - two System Three's and one Z-2H - together with a pile of instruction and technical manuals. I have listed some of the more interesting software on some of the one hundred and fifty (approx) 8" disks. There may be some software or manuals that are needed by subscribers to this list - that shouldn't be bundled for sale with the equipment. If having seen my web site - it's not bad for someone who never progressed past machine code - you think I have, or even might have, something you want e-mail me and I will try to reply promptly. Unfortunately most of the stuff is stored 150 miles north of here in Worcester, so I won't get the chance to delve deeper very often. It may offend some sensibilities that I will be listing most of the stuff on eBay just as soon as I have time. Those of you who think I should be less grasping should remember that I bought all this stuff new before most of you were born, when In the mean time I'm open to any offers and and will pay/arrange shipping to most countries Otherwise see it on eBay in due course. Jim Bunting - headcase(a)eclipse.co.uk M.V. Great Gull, Double Locks Hotel, Canal Banks, Exeter Ship Canal, Exeter, Devon, U.K. EX2 6LT. Phone No. 44 (0) 1392 493311 (On Board)

27 years, 9 months

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Emulation or the real thing?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I'm still skeptical. I'd love to hear more first-hand reports of < the oldest code still running as-is. Come on, code from the 50s < that's never been replaced? Running on what? Under an emulator? Ok, howabout a Brigeport milling machine with the PDP-8E it was purchased with in 1975, still running the same code. code from the 50s would likely be fortran or Cobol and yes it would be portable enough to go from one machine to the next with only a compile (no edits). Code from the late 60s era machine could still be running oth either native hardware or later machines that had to support old code. What is missed is code is expensive and hard to maintain so if you have something good and known you run it for a long time. I'm still running 8080/z80 code from the late 70s early 80s! If it aint broke don't fix it and the system that it was genned on is also 20 years old last March. So it's very easy for old code to linger. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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OT: Modern college educations

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

> >> >> A lot of discussion here on college educations, my 0.02. >> >> 1) I don't expect New College Grads (NCG's) to know a lot, I expect them to Don't. They're here to make the college money, not to get ahead in the real world. This is already starting to bite back, and will get worse. >I would also expect them to have some practical knowledge as well. And >how to make order-of-magnitude calculations/reliable guesses for results in >their subject. > >Please note that the 2 people I was moaning about earlier (one wanted a >362.83 Ohm resistor for his LED, the other couldn't grasp '5V across >4.7kOhms is a little more than a milliamp') were EEs. It's reasonable >that a chemistry student, or a classics student, or something like that >wouldn't have a clue about resistor values, but for an EE? It worries me. >It wories me a lot. But, why? Most of them will be getting a job in which they either follow flowcharts, or in which they figure out the prettiest way to put U1-49 on a PCB and attach a 6-pin connector to pins 1-6 of each U. If the world is unlucky enough to have one at a real circuit without a manual, the few comptetent engineers will find a way to make this guy's function unnecessary. At the end, of course, this raises unemployment and decreases skill. It's clear a crisis will occur <100y >Oh, IMHO all CS students should have some idea as to what the 'computer' >they are writing programs for actually is. And that means having some >idea of digital electronics and assembly language. I find using tools >that you don't fully understand is a darn good way to produce poor code >(or whatever). The thing that annoys me terribly is that people think they can do 'interesting' things on a computer, like web pages, and graphics, and so forth. IMHO, an artist should play with Photoshop and POVRay, while a person interested in computers should learn assembly. It's not mutually exclusive, of course, but I think there are too many people who could contribute a lot to technical stuff, while they sit lazily clicking away at the canvas. >Of course. Things you've taught yourself are rarely forgotten. If you >want to understand something then you will. Unlike the student who learnt >the book to pass the exam and has no real clue as to what it means. > Here's something I read in a ham radio book: "There are two ways to prepare for any test. One way is to study to learn the material, and the other is to pass the test. I suggest you study to pass the test" He was, of course, talking about the Amateur Radio certification test. Clearly, this book was made not for people interested in radio, but those who want to send messages about their private life all over the universe. > >> One of the things that struck me about a 'dead' PC I was attempting to fix >> was that the BIOS flash had been zorched and a) Not only was their no way >> to recover the bios but b) the chipset used was both non-standard and made >> by a now non-existent company who left behind no records. Talk about > >Thankfully the BIOS on this PC is in OTP EPROMs, and I have the official >source listings anyway. Ditto schematics of everything but the hard disk. >This machine can be repaired. > >> unfixable! When my PDP-8 breaks I can always go back to first principles > >Exactly. I've fixed my 8/e, 11s and PERQs to component level when necessary. > >> and get it working again, when the engine computer on your car breaks, your With a car, it's not that bad. You could order replacement chips sometimes, or you could try bypassing the messed-up function. >Why do you think that when I get a car I am _not_ having any electronics >anywhere enar the engine :-). Mechanical stuff I can understand and >repair. Electronics I can understand, but there's no way I could make a >custom chip at home. > >> Graphics card? "I'm sorry Mr. McManis but that information is only >> available under NDA to qualified customers who can prove a market of at >> least 1K units/month." Talk about self defeating! > >More people should insist on proper documentation. On a couple of >occasions I've returned a device to the shop that sold it under the UK >sale of goods act. The reason? It was not fit for the purpose that I >bought it for because important documentation (register maps, connector >pinouts, etc) was not available. Alas I doubt if the company ever >realised or cared... The thing is, the documents often don't exist. My father once worked for a HV PSU manufacturing firm, where the blueprints were just barely enough to manufacture the device. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< But just tell me where 32 Bit instructions can be usefull ? < In fact, I can't think of any part inside a BASIC. But the < higher clockrates are a nice thing - and maybe the z180 for < 3.0 style bankswitching. They can address the full 32bit address space (without banking) and the z380 adds a host of addressing modes not in the z80 like 32bit indirect, PC relative and stack relative with long pointers. Also MUL, DIV and a handfull of other nice instructions that would sharply speed on the math functions. Also there are 4 sets of registers compared to the dual set of the z80/z180. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Fluke multimeters: infringement of international safety standard

by Philip.Belben＠PowerTech.co.uk

This came round at work. I don't know if any of you have a Fluke 80 series - IMHO the Fluke 87 is still one of the best multimeters that money can buy. (I don't have that much money so I have a Fluke 29 and am thus not affected.) However, I believe electrical safety is something to take very seriously. I have received nasty shocks and nastier burns from accidentally touching the mains (yes, even the earth conductor), and the rectified mains in switch mode power supplies is even nastier. Not to mention high voltages in monitors, etc. Philip. ---------------------- Forwarded by Philip Belben/PTech/PowerGen on 22/10/98 17:23 --------------------------- From: Chris Bright on 22/10/98 09:22 To: George WEDGWOOD/Westwood/PowerGen@PowerGen cc: (bcc: Philip Belben/PTech/PowerGen) Subject: Fluke electrical multimeters: infringement of international safety standard Recently Fluke Corporation discovered a small dimensional shortfall within its 80 Series III digital multimeters and 787 process multimeters. This means that the meters do not comply with IEC 1010-1 which deals with double or reinforced insulation in the 1000V Overvoltage Category III rating. The problem may be solved by fitting a replacement battery cover obtainable free form Fluke. The affected range of products are: Model Serial number Manufactured Date From To From To 83 III 69810781 71200001 29 Dec 1997 7 July 1998 85 III 69810501 71200001 29 Dec 1997 7 July 1998 87 III 69910001 71200001 12 Jan 1998 7 July 1998 787 All units prior to 71200001 7 July 1998 For further information please contact the local Fluke Sales Office on Tel 01 923 216400. [NB that is a UK number local to us at Nottingham. PDB] Chris Bright Power Technology File DXHA/SAFT/ELEC/OFFC

27 years, 9 months

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Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

> < I am trying to basically build a 64Bit Z-80 on a board. What I am > < looking for is: Anyone know of any chips that are EXTREMELY simple > < micro-controllers but, work at EXTREMELY high clock rates??? I wanna p > < a few on a board with some memory and made a 64-bit Z-80. I'd like th > < processor to operate at 300Mcyc (or faster) clock speeds so, I figure I > < need micro-controllers that operate at about 900 Mcyc to do the work. > Wait till April first for this. <rotfl> > I don't think you were listening when we were discussing propagation > delays. To deal with 300-900Mhz clock your talking 4-6layer etch and > some really fast logic. The .33nS memory will be tough to buy. Be > prepared to dump a few DecaKilobucks into the attempt after all you'll > need a really fast logic analyser and O'scope to see what you missed. Gee Allison you are talking like an engeneer - destroying a brilliant vision just by facts :) > If you want a 32 bit z80 get a z380, it runs native z80 code, until you > switch modes then compatability works but it has a lot of gotchas. Net thing, but just 18 and 20 MHz types availabe - running as Z80 a 33 MHz Z180 might be faster (And never forget: you can't use R any longer as random number generator :). > If your doing a z80 stretch, you better think about how to access memory > or really alter the z80 fetch timing. Basic Z80 timing for say 20ns > memory would limit you to some 40-50Mhz... it would be a 5-10 MIPS machine > though. If you superpipline it and get it down to 1-2 clocks per cycle > you can double that. THe Z180 is already down to 3 cycle/instruction, and the z380 is down to 2 cycle/instr. But since the maximum clock rate of the 180 is more than 50% higher than the 280, it's the way to go. > In any case there is no way to logically stretch a > z80 without running the risk of making it software incompatable at some > point. I've seriously looked at it, still have the 2901s I was thinking > of using. I have z80/10mhz parts however and the 2901s would barely do > that. And if you try, most 10 MHz can run at 12 to 14 MHz. > FYI: z80S180s can be had into the 30+ mhz range. :) Jep and 1 Meg is still plenty of RAM when running CP/M But after all where is the sense of having a Z80 as 64 Bit processor ? It's a well usable 8/16 Bit processor. Even the 380 isnt realy an advantage - you just don't realy need this 32 Bit instructions. A set consecutive 16 Bit instructions can do it in almost the same time. From my point of usage a 16 Bit uP is anything you need - compact code, compact data and greater over all performance. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

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