- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by dhansen＠zebra.net

I'm wondering if anyone wants a DEC Vax 6220 (model number 62AMB-YE). It's approximately 5' x 3' x 3' and is located in the Mobile, Alabama area. Please reply quickly. david

27 years, 9 months

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Anyone Have Pinout for M8047-AA SLU Ports???

by mcquiggi＠sfu.ca

Hi All: I have an M8047-AA 2 port SLU/boot rom card. It's a dual-height Q bus card. I am looking for the pinout of the 2 serial ports. They are 10 pin IDC headers, with one pin removed to ensure correct polarity. The headers look like: o o o o o o o X o o The "o"s are pins, the "X" is the missing pin. This is for an 11/23, the card is configured with what appears to be a boot ROM, I'm assuming that one of the serial ports comes up as the console. Thanks in advance, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca

27 years, 9 months

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FUBARs and microfortnights

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>>Why do you have to remember when you have VMS HELP available? :-) >Hey, that's cheating :-) >The story I heard about uFortnights was a bit of an "in joke" within VMS >development. There was obviously a concerted effort to make VMS >documentation as dry as IBM stuff is perceived, so the developers put up >this new unit to see how far up the chain of cleansing it would go before >being "expunged". I hear that there was some surprise and embarrassment >when it escaped to customers. If that's the case, I wonder how "?SYS-F-FUBAR - Failed Unibus Address Register" snuck in, too :-) Tim.

27 years, 9 months

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HP Paintjet

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I'm not sure if the HP Paintjet is >10yo. If not,feel free to ignore. Is it possible to upload fonts to the Paintjet? Or redefine its character set in any way? Does anyone have the escape codes for it? I looked on www.hp.com, but it is Lynx-unfriendly. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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Scanning (was: TurboDos)

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Thank you very much for the scanning info, Eric. If I can get my clients out of here reasonably early enough Sunday(tomorrow), I will give things a try along the lines you've suggested... seems I have most of the tools lying around here somewhere. My offer, though, re: the doc that spawned this thread, still holds. If you want this TurboDos info, it is yours for the price of UPS or FedEx from Los Angeles. Thanx again! PS: Thanx Ward G. I had quite forgotten about the F/F/F system of mensuration. And it is no less ridiculous than the one we (in 'Merka) use that is derived from human anatomy and plant biology. Cheers John

27 years, 9 months

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11/70 Front Panel

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> The "programmer's" front panel doesn't exist for the PDP11/70. I saw this earlier and I severely disagree. Two systems I knew of in the Mill (PRINCE::) and Westford (GRAF::) locations were both 11/70 with programmers front pannels. The latter system, GRAF:: was one I'd reboot if the sysmangler wasn't around so it's familiar to me. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Week End Finds

by fauradon＠pclink.com

OOPS This was of course not meant to the list Francois

27 years, 9 months

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PDP Doc files posted today

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Hello, all: I finally got Acrobat Exchange and my scanner to talk to eachother, so I started scanning my PDP docs. I posted to http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ copies of the following: * IAS/RSX-11 Fortran IV Installation Guide approx size 2mb * RK05J Engineering drawings approx size 2.7mb I also have the RK05 service manual scanned and broken into four, 25-page chunks totaling about 7.5mb. Let me know what you think about the file sizes. I'm torn between files for each chapter and a single file so long as it isn't much bigger than 2mb. Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin!/CW7 - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of "classic" computers <========= reply separator ==========>

27 years, 9 months

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11/70 Front Panel

by pechter＠shell.monmouth.com

> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:33:48 +0100 (BST) > From: ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Subject: Re: 11/70 front panel > Message-ID: <m0zX7ZY-000IyNC@p850ug1> > Content-Type: text > > > The "programmer's" front panel doesn't exist for the PDP11/70. > > I would guess he's refering to the original 11/70 front panel. It looks > just like an 11/45 panel, except that it has 22 address indicators and 22 > switches. > > > What you probably have is the 11/70 Remote Diagnostic Console > > which allowed DEC to remotely diagnose the 11/70 (even when hung > > in a microcode loop or power fail routine) from Colorado. > > > > The front panel hooks to a microprocessor controlled card which interfaced > > The original 11/70 panel connects directly into the CPU logic AFAIK. I don't > think there's a microprocessor in there. I don't believe so... I do think the Remote Diag Console used a microprocessor (Looked kind of like a modified DMC/KMC-11 to allow it to grab Unibus state snapshots and stuff like that from a machine which was completely hung. I only wished they kept working front panel switches and lights with the RDC. > > -tony > You could do a lot of good diagnostic stuff remotely with just the RDC and a console DL11 hooked to a modem... The board was supposed to be DEC proprietary and removed from the machine (like the 11/750 RDC board) when it went off service contact. In the late 80's DEC started getting a bit lax on removing them. If I find the pocket guide for it -- I'll post the commands. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

27 years, 9 months

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Microfortnights

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>And of course there's a VMS sysgen parameter whose unit of measurement is >the micro-fortnight. Any VMS systems types out there remember what the >parameter is, and how long a micro-fortnight is :-) Why do you have to remember when you have VMS HELP available? :-) (TIMAXP)$: MCR SYSGEN SYSGEN> SHOW PARAM *TIME* Parameter Name Current Default Min. Max. Unit Dynamic -------------- ------- ------- ------- ------- ---- ------- TIMEPROMPTWAIT 65535 -1 0 -1 uFortnight SYSGEN> HELP PARAM TIMEPROMPTWAIT TIMEPROMPTWAIT TIMEPROMPTWAIT defines the number of seconds that you want a VAX processor to wait for the time and date to be entered when a system boot occurs, if the processor's time-of-year clock does not contain a valid time. (The time unit of micro-fortnights is approximated as seconds in the implementation.) If the time specified by TIMEPROMPTWAIT elapses, the system continues the boot operation, and the date and time are set to the last recorded time that the system booted. For a VAX-11/730 processor, which does not have a battery backup clock, the system time must be supplied following a power failure. [...] -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 9 months

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TurboDOS

by eric＠brouhaha.com

Does anyone know whether TurboDOS (an improved CP/M clone) is still available? A web search only turned up an entirely different TurboDOS for Atari computers. Cheers, Eric

27 years, 9 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

> As for a 64Bit data bus, there is no reason for a 64bit instruction but, > but with 64bits of data, you can do a hell-of-alot with video and signal > synthesis (i.e. sound). If you want to wrangle 64 Bit data you need to have acording operations - Wasn't it your intention to create a 64 Bit uP ? So, without a 64 Bit ALU and instructions to handle 64 Bit this Z80 will still be an 16 Bit uP just with an 64 Bit data bus. And for the Speed thing: it would be way better if the data bus is extended to 128 Bit, to reduce Memory access. With a 64 Bit bus in a 32 Bit CPU the theoretical bus load is just half. Or simpler: the CPU can be twice as fast with the same memory. > >And now tell me where you need 128 Bit address ? Just in > >case, even to fill a 64 Bit memory you need 4 GIG of > >mem thats just 4 grand ... and 128 Bit memory used ... > >oh unly 16,000,000,000,000 Dollar ... gee rich man > It is good design in my opinion to have your address bus twice as wide as > your data bus. Just tell me why ? Because it has been the tame with old 8 Bit uPs ? Come on thats just the stupid 'thats the way it always has been' idea. Address bus shuld be a) as wide as needed and b) if possible not exeeding the Size of the basic data unit. For a) just tell me where you need more than 4 Gig, or better where you need _way_ more than 4 Gig, because just 4 or 10 times this address space is easyer done with paging methods (wait for b)). And for b) you need special logic to perform address calculation, you can't hold one address in one regular register, you need more silicon to implement the adressing logic, adress calculation and (hidden) adressing register - you also need an additional ALU. > If you keep thinking like "you'll need $16,000,000,000.00 > in memory for that address size" you'll do the same stupid thing as: If you don't need it don't spent the silicon. > Micro$oft ("640K is more than enough for anyone"), Be carefull, now you're entering historical teretorry. MS-DOs was designed to use the full 1 Meg address space of the 8086/88. And could could well boot with something like 900 and more K user mem available. The 'Barrier' (640 or what ever) was given to DOS by the BIOS of the respective machine. And the PC-Bios had just to obey the CGA memory. > old programmers ("year 2000 is 20 years away. > This stuff will be obsolete by then"), You are just talking to one of them - and FYI we continue to use systems with two digit years and they are Y2K ready :) > and let us not forget Intel with their screwy memory addressing > schemes on their pre-X386s. Again, please think a bit - the x86 segmentation is a real great atempt to give - give more than 64 K Mem to a 16 Bit uP - allow an easy relocatable memory sceme - give a reliable memory base to a multi user/multi tasking OS I never had a problem with that - in fact I was realy happy about it (its just a kind of 16:16 base/offset addressing - remember /390 machines still have only one adressing base+offset - a proof for my belive, that base/offset is the only adressing mode needet anywhere). All the ranting about x86 are senseless and I often found (after taking out all the me-to-dont-like-it people) that these are the same guys who cant go well with 9 Bit machines or can't work with 7 Bit lines. > Think ahead! It wouldn't cost that much more or requrie much > more effort to add a few bits to the address bus. Just remember b) you NEED more effort, especialy things that don't fit into your standard modell. Just think, why was the Z80 so much better than the 8080 ? The 8080 implemented 16 Bit calculations, as needed for adress manipulation only as a kind of 'add-on', while the Z80 was more like a 16 Bit CPU. And here is also your additional effort visible - to give the flexibility to handle a address you need to implement 128 Bit things and operation - or you end up with a methods like the 64180 MMU or the x86 segmentation Or worse things like the page registers on the 65816 (I love the CPU, but I still think they should have used a x86 like sceme). And if your thinking about MMUs to expand a 64 Bit adress to 128, you just cut the adressrage down to 64 Bit, since external address enhancements are no design detail of a CPU. > Wow, I didn't intend for that to sound as sarcastic... No offence intended > Hans. Not taken - I still hope you will see it :) > As for the suggestion of using a DEC alpha to emulate a Z-80... I thought > about it but, those darned Alphas are way too expensive for us hobbist. Please ? An Alpha board with CPU is only a bit more expensive than a PC board with an equal Pentium. At least thats the street price over here in Munich - we have some PC part shops that are also selling Alpha boards and CPUs right aut of the blister. > Tell me more... what are Verilog, Xilinx or Altera? FPGA/GAL designs (and languages) some of them I think are already below the 3ns range. AFAIK you could aquire the Z80 design already as a FPGA description - add whatever you need and dump it into the FPGA. With 3nS you are able to get a 33 MHz Z80 right out of the box. Just don't forgett, a ready to use Z180 is 25% faster :) If you still want do try, you should realy dig into FPGA stuff (thanks Allison for the idea) here you get a nice sandbox to try your designs. And most of the evaluation kits are like for free. One more thing, when you want to design a 64 Bit CPU you will get something like 200 pins, so just forgett about any kind of DIL. > Anyone know if Zilog is going to beef up the Zx80 line???? Faster 180s and of course the 380s. But Zilog has to build things that will sell, so they are more into integrating special I/O devices than more CPU power. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Please disreagrd this message! I'm really sleepy....I missed the fact that a 128-bit processor would access over 4 billion times the amount a 32 bit one would. I forgot all about the 64-bit ones. In this case, I would agree, and go as far as to say that humanity will _never access 300 tredecillion bytes, since to do so would require us to dissassemble several planets. This had been discussed when I wasn't paying attention... >contiguously (and would probably require a lot of hardware to access >it). There are plenty of tasks that can use up much more than 4GB ram, >most notably databases and various graphics. 1GB is currently the >amount of RAM a high-end server can be expected to have, and in CGI >and engineering applications, even this isn't enough. To sum up, >volume always fills capacity, as the highway engineers that are >tearing up boston haven't learned yet. But, what's the amount of RAM >a 128-bit processor can access? >>I beg to differ, and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. >I'm >>willing to bet $1000 that there will be no practical applications >requiring >>processors with 128-bit addressing by October 24, 2003. Any takers? >> >>> Yep. Short-sightedness (and history) is seemingly repeating on this >list. >> >>We'll see. >> >>This is not the same shortsightedness as the old series of claims: >> >> You'll never need more than 1K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 4K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 16K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 32K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 64K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 128K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 256K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 512K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 640K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 1M of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 4M of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 16M of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 64M of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 256M of RAM. >> >>And yes, I've heard every single one of these statements made at one >>time or another. I haven't yet heard anyone claim that I'll never need >>more than 512M of RAM. My current Linux workstation has 384M of RAM, >>of which I routinely use more than 300M for large compiles (and I do >mean >>LARGE compiles, some require over 500M virtual) and for image >processing. >> >>Eric >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< It's a right pain to do complex digital circuitry like this. Great for < RF amplifiers, etc, but not so easy to run data buses across the board. < Although you _can_ make striplines using strips of copperclad stuck down < to the groundplane if you have to. for bussed logic is can work. The trick I used was 2sided clad board with one side sliced to produce 8 narrow strips as a bus with it's own groundplane. It was elevated over the chips with some screws (also passed the ground) and then wires picked off the needed signals. this approach was used to hook a 8049 MCU to a DDS (digital synth) that was used to drive a PLL. The core of a DDS is a (this case) 24bit parallel adder and 24 bit accumulator plus a 24bit constant register. A lot of parallel bussed signals. It was all clocked at 16.777216(2^24)mhz. A ram card would be harder but I've done one (dram!) that was fairly small (1Mx8 using 256kx1 dips) and one off. busing is a pain only in that it's a lot of repetitive wiring. But being visible it was easy to see signal progression. The results worked well and lacked the ringing that sometimes plagues boards of two sided design. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Why do some of us collect old computers ?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Why do some of us want to collect these old computers. ?? As an engineer I like to study old computers as there were often some good ideas or neat tricks encapsulated in them. To have machines off the track I followed (intel/z80 or DEC). This leads me to to aquire Kim-1s, Trackstar128s and the like. To have and use machines I didn't own but worked with. Like PDP-8s, Vaxen SDK85s, sdk88s and others. To extend, modify or otherwise use the systems I did aquire over they years. I may be unique as many of the oldest machines I have are orginal purchases. I have and use machines I could not afford in their time. Systems like the Compupro, Visual 1050, PS2/50z are examples of this. All of my systems are operational, many are used daily or weekly. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Ah! I misunderstood. That's a cool idea. There is an open source >> version of Civilization floating around. Perhaps that could be >> adapted, not that we couldn't steal a start from somewhere else... >> My Lord Hammurabi, I beg to report to you that this year we >> have produced 1,000 transistors and 400 rallods of copper >> wire. >> How much copper do you want smelt this year? Wow - thats it - I 've been already eaten up by megagraphics. So, anything I could Imagine was to reduce graphics to ASCII ... but Yo thats it Hamurabi ! > I don't know about that -- it would make the game rather difficult. > Rats have eaten 320 transistors. > Do you want to buy or sell stock? > Or maybe that should be: > Surplus shops have taken 215 transistors. > Do you want to buy or sell source code? Pfffft. Go ahead. thats great! Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Week End Finds

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Hi Mike, Did you receive your PC-1500 yet? Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ -----Original Message----- From: Mike <dogas(a)leading.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, October 19, 1998 8:20 PM Subject: Re: Week End Finds >>Does any one have docs on the pc-1500? Any info would be appreciated. A web >>search didn't bring anything more than the specs, I would like to find >>programming info if that is possible. >>Thanks >>Francois > > >Hi Francois, > >I just ordered one of these machines ( inbound mail ) send me some mail to >dogas(a)leading.net I should have it by week end... >- Mike >

27 years, 9 months

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Educational subsidies

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Slashdot.org has a story explaining that the UK school system can't afford NT 5 and are considering another OS. In light of this, people were bringing up Apple's success in schools in contrast to the current situation. However, I have heard that the only reason why Apples were common in schools was that the gov't bore some of the price tag to encourage use of Apples, and Apple didn't pay as much attention to education as is generally thought. Is this true? What were the particulars of Apple educational licensing? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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Odd Meas. Units

by mbg＠world.std.com

>> I used to know the speed of light in Furlongs per Fortnight. > >The attoparsec/microfortnight is remarkably close to the inch/second. >Quite useful for quoting tape speeds :-) IIRC, the GT40 lunar lander program had comments about measuring things in furlongs per fortnight. I'll have to check the source... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 9 months

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Fairchild Channel F

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Hi, I finally got around to going to the thrift store and picked up that Channel F. It cost me $10 and has Carts number 12 Baseball and 16 Dodge it. Whoever wanted it please respond to fauradon(a)pclink.com Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/

27 years, 9 months

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Anyone Have Pinout for M8047-AA SLU Ports???

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I am looking for the pinout of the 2 serial ports. They are 10 pin IDC >headers, with one pin removed to ensure correct polarity. >The headers look like: > > o o o o o > o o X o o

27 years, 9 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I guess I don't have $1000 to bet, but I wouldn't be quite that sure. No application _requires_ any number of bits > 1. It's a question of performance. After all, a Z80 could have 512M RAM, just not contiguously (and would probably require a lot of hardware to access it). There are plenty of tasks that can use up much more than 4GB ram, most notably databases and various graphics. 1GB is currently the amount of RAM a high-end server can be expected to have, and in CGI and engineering applications, even this isn't enough. To sum up, volume always fills capacity, as the highway engineers that are tearing up boston haven't learned yet. But, what's the amount of RAM a 128-bit processor can access? >I beg to differ, and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I'm >willing to bet $1000 that there will be no practical applications requiring >processors with 128-bit addressing by October 24, 2003. Any takers? > >> Yep. Short-sightedness (and history) is seemingly repeating on this list. > >We'll see. > >This is not the same shortsightedness as the old series of claims: > > You'll never need more than 1K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 4K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 16K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 32K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 64K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 128K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 256K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 512K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 640K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 1M of RAM. > You'll never need more than 4M of RAM. > You'll never need more than 16M of RAM. > You'll never need more than 64M of RAM. > You'll never need more than 256M of RAM. > >And yes, I've heard every single one of these statements made at one >time or another. I haven't yet heard anyone claim that I'll never need >more than 512M of RAM. My current Linux workstation has 384M of RAM, >of which I routinely use more than 300M for large compiles (and I do mean >LARGE compiles, some require over 500M virtual) and for image processing. > >Eric > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I was just pointing out that it's _possible_ to make high-speed stuff at < home given a lot of care and a bit of knowledge. The myth that it's < impossible to homebrew at above 10MHz is just that - a myth. It's not < easy, but it's possible. Having also done it I know that it's not for the faint of heart. You have to have an idea about fast pulses and RF in real life circuits to know what works and what may not. FYI: My favorite breadboard technique is dead bug. Take a sheet of copper clad and call that ground, mount devices inverted (legs up!) and bend any pins that are gound to ground. Small cap from Vcc to the ground plane and start wiring. Critical lead lengths can be very short. I've used this trick for over 20 years and into the GHz region successfully. Looks ugly but it goes together fast and works better than a PC layout! It's also non fussy in that it applies well to RF as digital circuits. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Items sold

by kyrrin＠jps.net

The H89 system I advertised in here a while back has been sold. A fellow out of Jacksonville, FL was the lucky buyer (and you don't want to know what the shipping cost!) The DECMate III floppies and card have also been claimed. Thanks to all for your interest. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 9 months

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old IBM calculator questions

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

What kind of speed gain? > >On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > >> Here are a couple of questions inspired by my encounter with the >> IBM Automatic Sequence-Controlled Calculator Mark I. >> For one thing, if this thing could perform all of the basic >> calculations to many decimal places in a short time, why build an >> ENIAC, many times bigger, and less reliable, when this machine >> could have been scaled if necessary? It had been in development, and >> I'm sure the military was working on relay-based machines as well. >> So why the choice of digital with vacuum tubes? > >Speed for one. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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Zenith Luggable

by lwalker＠mail.interlog.com

I have a Zenith luggable ZFA-161-52 with the popup fdds. I've dug into Dejanews archives but haven't found too much on it. I know the model # indicates a Z(enith) F( 48 TPI double sided) A( amber screen ) 161 model 5 (slots) 2 (fdds'). There's 2 Zenith newsgroups , one of which seems devoted to newer machines and the other Z-100 which is mainly porn spam. There's also a program archive on Oakland. There also seems to be some confusion as to what is a Z-100 machine which sometimes refers to only the 110 and 120 models and other times to anything with a 100 #. Apparently some of the models ran CP/M and had a S-100 bus and also ran ZDOS ,compatible with MSDOS. Mine has some 1983 and 1984 dates on it and boots from DOS as apparently all would. The built-in monitor system indicates 320k Ram. It has an 8088 CPU on one of the cards but I don't see another processor for CP/M. Any pointers to a source of info or info on this machine would be appreciated. ciao larry lwalker(a)interlog.com

27 years, 9 months

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old IBM calculator questions

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Here are a couple of questions inspired by my encounter with the IBM Automatic Sequence-Controlled Calculator Mark I. For one thing, if this thing could perform all of the basic calculations to many decimal places in a short time, why build an ENIAC, many times bigger, and less reliable, when this machine could have been scaled if necessary? It had been in development, and I'm sure the military was working on relay-based machines as well. So why the choice of digital with vacuum tubes? Also, the plaque at the Mark I said that it was decimal. I am slightly familiar with flip-flops and stuff, but what would be a way to make a decimal computer? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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Bid list

by franke＠sbs.de

>> these things are headed for landfill big time. Along about 2010 or 2015 and >> trying to put together a representative 486 system from the "early 90's" is >> going to be damn near impossible. Look at the PDP-8's which spanned 15 >> years of production and are now pretty difficult to get hold of. > That's because only several thousand PDP-8's were ever produced. Trust > me, I don't think you're EVER going to have problems finding a 486 > motherboard, at least not in the next millenium. There has been a time when I thougt that picking up a ZX80 from dirt is not worth ... and now ? Also PET - have you seen the PETs on ePay ? I got most of my PET/CBMs way below USD 50 - and now ? Hard to finde won at a reasonable price. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Intellec 8 -v- Altair 8800

by headcase＠eclipse.co.uk

I posted the following - now translated message - on 23 October '98 Having had my wrist slapped, I apologise to all for such a very basic lack of knowledge and understanding. No doubt the same applies to the message When collecting vintage/classic computers it would seem to me that the apparently much sort after Altair 8800 is the Model T to the Intellec's R.R. Silver Ghost. At the time - 1974 - I thought the Altair was a very very cheap copy of my very very very expensive Intellec - and I still do! But then I would, wouldn't I? Have I fallen for all the eBay hype or have I've been wrong all these years? Jim Bunting - headcase(a)eclipse.co.uk M.V. Great Gull, Double Locks Hotel, Canal Banks, Exeter Ship Canal, Exeter, Devon, U.K. EX2 6LT. Phone No. 44 (0) 1392 493311 (On Board)

27 years, 9 months

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FS in UK - Intel & Cromemco Etc. circa 1974 & 1980

by headcase＠eclipse.co.uk

To anybody who couldn't read my original message because of html etc:- I thought it best to post it again - but then I would wouldn't I? Thanks to all those of you who replied about the computer equipment I'm selling I read all the replies up to about second week in September but lost those together with a massive pile of un-read mail up to a few weeks back.. If you havent had a reply - sorry - over confidence or Bill's bugs - I still haven't figured out which I've sorted through all my computers and equipment and listed them on my web pages .http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/ together with photos etc The Intell, Addmaster, Roytron, Mesonix etc. stuff is on http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/sellintel.htm I have listed all the information I have, together with photographs of each item. Unfortunately I seem to have lost the folder containing all the original documentation but most of the stuff is circa 74/75. The Cromemcos and software stuff are on http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/sellcromemco.htm There are three working Cromemco Systems circa 1978 to 1984 - two System Three's and one Z-2H - together with a pile of instruction and technical manuals. I have listed some of the more interesting software on some of the one hundred and fifty (approx) 8" disks. There may be some software or manuals that are needed by subscribers to this list - that shouldn't be bundled for sale with the equipment. If having seen my web site - it's not bad for someone who never progressed past machine code - you think I have, or even might have, something you want e-mail me and I will try to reply promptly. Unfortunately most of the stuff is stored 150 miles north of here in Worcester, so I won't get the chance to delve deeper very often. It may offend some sensibilities that I will be listing most of the stuff on eBay just as soon as I have time. Those of you who think I should be less grasping should remember that I bought all this stuff new before most of you were born. In the mean time I'm open to any offers and and will pay/arrange shipping to most countries Otherwise see it on eBay in due course. Jim Bunting - headcase(a)eclipse.co.uk M.V. Great Gull, Double Locks Hotel, Canal Banks, Exeter Ship Canal, Exeter, Devon, U.K. EX2 6LT. Phone No. 44 (0) 1392 493311 (On Board)

27 years, 9 months

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How is a microprocessor made?

by oajones＠bright.net

I've always wanted to ask this question. How is a microprocessor made? Can someone here on the list answer this question? --Alan oajones(a)bright.net

27 years, 9 months

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In case you thought Ebay couldn't get more ridiculous...

by aaron＠wfi-inc.com

What the fu... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37155064

27 years, 9 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 24, 9:53, Sam Ismail wrote: > Subject: Re: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa > On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > can provide one. It depends on logical statements working as follows: > > The statement C=(A>B) would set C to 0 if A weren't greater than B, and > > would set C=-1 if A were greater than B. Not all micro BASICs support this. > > I'm pretty sure Applesoft is onethat does _not_. > > AppleSoft would logically return a +1 for the above statement rather than > a -1. Why the PET returns a -1 is beyond me. Couldn't they have added > one more machine instruction to strip off the sign bit? The PET is actually following the more common convention. The bitwise complement of 0 (all zero bits) is -1 (all one bits), at least in a 2's-complement environment. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 9 months

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old IBM calculator

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Today, I briefly attended an Earthwatch conference at the Harvard Science Center. It wasn't as good as it could have been, but what was interesting was the IBM Automatic Sequence-Controlled Calculator, Mark I. This was apparently used by Harvard since 1946 or so. Now, it's in the lobby, or at least most of it. It's an electromechanical machine, no electronic components. Very fun to look at! The plaque said that in modern terms, it would have been 52 Hz and 1.7K RAM. It has one constant panel (dozens of rotary switches), an enormous array of relays, a missing multiplication module, a paper tape module (for output), a paper tape sequencer module (input), two typewriters (input and output), and a punched card device. It was shut off, except for flourescent lights, but I bet it could probably run...it was about 2 m tall and less than 1 m deep. The photos showed that it originally had a lot of pulleys on the back for dealing with paper tape. It is driven by a motor shaft that extends through the whole machine, spinning at 4 rpm. This acted as a clock and drove the tape mechanisms. Seems very easy to use, with proper instructions. I wouldn't mind having this in a hypothetical basement. On the plaque, it says it was used for ray tracing for lens design. Just thought someone would like to know :) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 23, 16:03, Hans Franke wrote: > >> My Lord Hammurabi, I beg to report to you that this year we > >> have produced 1,000 transistors and 400 rallods of copper > >> wire. > > Surplus shops have taken 215 transistors. > > Do you want to buy or sell source code? That brings back some fond memories :-) > Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? Probably same place mine went: loaned, not returned. I still have ":More BASIC Computer Games: 84 Fabulous Games for Your Personal Computer", though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 9 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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27 years, 9 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I have made double-sided boards that ran at 100MHz+. The trick was to us < (a) one side entirely unetched as a ground plane, (b) design all the < tracks as striplines, (c) know the characteristics of the PCB material, < (d) use 100% SMD components with the shortest possible ground < connections, (e) use carefully designed twisted pair lines to carry < signals about if you couldn't route the tracks, (f) terminate everything < properly and (g) take a lot of care and think about what you are doing. (h) accept lower component density on the board to do that. It's very doable but, a 4-6 layer makes it so much less painful for a production system. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education

by hhacker＠gte.net

I do not need to have messages like this sent to me dozens of times! William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks <erd(a)infinet.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, October 23, 1998 5:50 AM Subject: Re: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education >> >> > You play the game like this: >> > 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. >. >.

27 years, 9 months

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Bid list

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Can you tell us more about the type of auction this is? Is it one of those auction where you can walk away with a pentium for $5 or is it more of the upper type wher you pretty much have to be within 105 of the retail valu in order to win it? Have you had any experience with this sort of auction? What I'm getting at is I've seen a few things on the list that I like but hve no idea what to bid on them. Also it seems like the terms for payement are very tight 2 days to send the money or you're out how do you propose to proceed? Are you going to send a "big" check for the bid and hope that everybody follow up on their bid? Thank you for the post. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ >I am on a major computer manufacture's surplus equipment bid list. >The list that came out today has a lot of equipment that would be of >interest to people on this list. >I am not interested in making any money from this all that I ask is that all >costs will be covered. I will have to pay the shipping from them to me and >that will needed to be figured into the final cost. I have just spoken to >Bruce Lane about this and he is putting it on his web site. I would also >ask that anyone that is interested in putting in a bid just email me with >the line of interest and $ they want me to bid per unit. You can bid on any ># up to the quantity listed. Please include your Phone # In case of any >questions. >If there are multiple bids on one item I will try my best to use the time of >the bid to >choose priority. I have no intention of making any money from this and hope >people will understand if I get flooded I may have to cut things off. >To give me time please let me know of any interest by Sunday Oct. 25 to give >me time to reformat and sort everything for sending in the final bid by noon >Monday. > >Also please keep any phone calls to before 10:00 PM eastern time. I try to >keep peace with the wife :) >Thanks >Dan Burrows >336-376-0468 >dburrows(a)netpath.net > > >

27 years, 9 months

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ZILOG article in South China Morning Post

by thomas＠0000000.com

Hi, Since I was sorta plugging using the Z180 in consumer electronics earlier today and this thread about the Z80 is running around, I tho't I'd post this link. The article covers Zilog history in brief and where they think they're headed. Zilog has been plugging the Z8 for awhile but I think the Z180 represents the company's real family jewels. Thomas ---- Revamped Zilog aims for the top in chip markets ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.scmp.com/news/template/Tec-Template.idc?artid=19981019192016031&…

27 years, 9 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Are z80's still being produced? Yes. <If so, are they the same as the 1980 ones? actually the z80 is 1976 design and yes. The z180 is an enhanced part that is very popular in controls and other embedded uses. <I would think so, since the TI-86 (still in production) uses < a z80. BTW, I guess comparing the multi-Z80 system to a 386 isn't too < fair. It's fair as the z80s were only running at 6MHz. <How much faster is it than 1 z80 running the same program? Not terribly. The actual test only used one. The rest were doing background tasks (printing). Z80 excels at IO and byte oriented tasks. The real advanatge was the system had highly optimized IO channels for everything and the disks had track caching. The other minor advantage is the z80 code used was tight and by time 386s got in PCs code bloat had already set in. FYI: the machine was originally designed to tackle several things more speed from a cpu, Multiprocessing/multitasking and more efficient IO systems. The IO systems part proved to be the key to using one cpu more efficiently. Multiple CPUs had a minor advantage that was offset by fairly complex programming. To this day that system runs but with only one master cpu installed(the other three are spares). Two years later Compupro would come up with the MPX1 combined with their frequent use of DMA to make one of the fastest s100 systems available (for any given cpu). Basically doing the same work I did earlier for myself and proving that multiple CPUs and DMA can be a performance enhancement when applied to the bottlenecks (most tend to occur at the IO level). <Why is everyone making multi-z80 machines, anyway? Partially to capitalize on available software (mountains of it all free) and experince. <Why not 6502 or 6800 or even (gasp!) 8088? Because those were done also. I have a trackstar128, two 6502s. IT has a lot to do with the way the CPUs interface and the ability to interconnect them so they don't fight each other. The 8088 has a selection of bus interface chips that allow for multiple CPUs on the same buss (8289). Also multiple CPUs are a cost/complexity vs performance race and some win better in that contest. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

i've got slackware 3.0 two disk set somewhere around here i'll let go for $5 In a message dated 10/23/98 8:30:17 AM US Eastern Standard Time, bwish(a)pcfa.org writes: > You could get someone to burn you a CD copy, or find someone willing to > give away their old distribution CD. I was able to get a copy of RedHat > 5.1 burned for $5. I'm sure you could find someone fairly easily who > would do something similar. > > I ran across a web page that listed people with old distribution CD's who > would either give them to you or let you borrow them.

27 years, 9 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educations)

by mtapley＠swri.edu

Chuck McManis wrote: >You guys don't get it. :-) > >You play the game like this: > 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. > 2) Scout for (surface) deposit of iron ore and start mining ore. >... > 15) Using generator create electricity. > 18) Mine tungsten and build lightbulb. > ... >First one to a PDP-8 wins :-) > Oh, I got it. I used to play that game with myself, but with the goal being "First one to match orbits and dock at the space station in polar orbit wins." I could never figure out a workable way to do it in one lifetime. (ObCC: guidance computers were a serious problem. Relays I built, clicking away in the vibration environment induced by a rocket I built? Right....Sequencers? Stable time reference? Oy.) I guess I'd have to start out: 1) Scout for native woman. 2) Establish dynasty. 3) Found school/religion to keep dynasty on task 4) Gosub Chuck's #1) above. ... :-) - Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward.

27 years, 9 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by maxeskin＠law-smtpdev.hotmail.com

Are z80's still being produced? If so, are they the same as the 1980 ones? I would think so, since the TI-86 (still in production) uses a z80. BTW, I guess comparing the multi-Z80 system to a 386 isn't too fair. How much faster is it than 1 z80 running the same program? Why is everyone making multi-z80 machines, anyway? Why not 6502 or 6800 or even (gasp!) 8088? >< connections is good, soldering them helped a bit but no dice. > >Huh? I have 6 cards, s100 protoboards with about 25-40 pieces of mos and >TTL on them that I wrapped in 1981 still running. Ohmic losses? What were >you doing wrong. Remember #30 is for signals not power! > >< Have data transfers done with DMA, all memory mapped and irq driven >< to knock subCPU as needed to grab data then place it in CPU's lap. >< Leave CPU alone for processing. How about that? > >Those 6 boards built a multi z80 system with DMA and slave processors for >things like IO and disks. It helps but the z80 bus is so busy that it's >very hard to slip inbetween cycles so you steal cpu cycles by holding it >off with BUSRQ/. Z280, z8000 and Z380 use burst mode access to the bus so >that other devices can get in and get a few cycles without holding up the >cpu. Even with slaves you reach a bottleneck between memory management >and overhead to move data around. Still the results with 6mhz z80s were >enough to blow away 386/16 class machine for text oriented applications. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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DEC Hardware

by jrice＠texoma.net

I'm going to look at some DEC hardware, a PDP-11/34 and some VAX equipment. I'm not into DEC's so I thought I'd look at it as possibly a rescue setup. This company is going to want some residual value payment. how much is this stuff worth? It was taken out of service a couple of months ago. I'll try to get a list of what's available. It's located about 60 miles from Dallas. I might want one of the Vax boxes, but I don't want any PDP hardware. Anyone interested? James

27 years, 9 months

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128k Mac Schematic needed

by nerdware＠laidbak.com

Hi, group. My 128k Mac went south on me. When I first got it a year ago, it turned on and the screen came up and asked for a floppy. Not having a system disk that old, I just put it in storage until I came across one. Needless to say, next time I turned it on the floppy made funny noises and kept spitting the disk out and no video. Does anyone have a schematic for the little beast so I can get it cooking again? If I have to, I can use my Mac Plus for my history presentations, but I would rather use the original, if possible. Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware(a)laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware

27 years, 9 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 23, 14:04, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? > Mine's at home, but I do happen to have a version I ported to the PET > in 1978 that is sitting right here on my SPARCstation disk. I've got > xpet, and a directory full of my old tapes that I converted to .d64 > emulator disk format. I'd post HAMMURABI.BAS, but I suspect that more > than one person would get annoyed. I'm sure I've seen a copy on one of the Vax sites somewhere. I'm fairly sure I have a copy on one of the hard disks here, too. Somewhere :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 9 months

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EDSAC celebration?

by dpeschel＠u.washington.edu

This question has been rattling around in my head for some time. Perhaps one of the UK people has the answer. I enjoyed the Manchester Mark I recreation. I saw the programming contest, thought about writing something really fantastic (a small computer language, whatever), looked closer at the architecture of the machine, and changed my mind. It's pretty limited. I was *quite* impressed by the noodle-timer program that won the contest, though. But I always liked the EDSAC much more than the Manchester Mark I (baby or full version). It has a very elegant design and you can get actual work done with it. (Because the Mark I ran a stored program first but was in proto- type stage, I see the EDSAC as the first working modern stored-prgoram computer, followed soon after by the finished Mark I.) And the Initial Orders are STILL one of the most ingenious programs ever. Except I haven't heard anything about an EDSAC recreation, and the 50th anniversary date is coming up! (Is it June 6 1999 or some time in May?) And M. V. Wilkes has remained active in the field, so he might be inclined to do something like this. Is anything planned? If nothing ends up happening, I intend to get an autographed copy of the Wilkes/Wheeler/Gill book. P.S. IMO history shows that British computer designs are often MUCH more sensible than their American contemporaries. They treat the computer as a tool to be used rather than a hunk of hardware with software slapped on later. Too bad history shows that British computer *sales* are LESS successful than their American counterparts. -- Derek

27 years, 9 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 23, 20:54, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Oct 23, 14:04, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > emulator disk format. I'd post HAMMURABI.BAS, but I suspect that more > > than one person would get annoyed. > > I'm sure I've seen a copy on one of the Vax sites somewhere. I'm fairly > sure I have a copy on one of the hard disks here, too. Somewhere :-) I was right -- I found it, all 118 lines, including comments, along with a pile of other stuff from David Ahl, such as KING.BAS (same idea, but twice as big). Who remembers this one: 1 PRINT "DIRECT YOUR DOG TO ANY OF THE FOLLOWING FILES:" 2 PRINT "KB:--KEYBOARD, LP:--PRINTER, PP:--HIGH SPEED PUNCH" 3 INPUT "WHICH ONE";A$ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 9 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I'm sure I've seen a copy on one of the Vax sites somewhere. It's not "a VAX site", but Hammurabi does appear on the Spring 78 RT-11 SIG tape, and this is available by anonymous ftp from ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rt/decus… The top looks like: 100 PRINT "YOU ARE THE RULER OF THE ANCIENT KINGDOM OF SUMERIA." 101 PRINT "YOUR PEOPLE CALL YOU 'HAMURABI THE WISE'. YOUR TASK IS" 102 PRINT "TO DEVELOP A STABLE ECONOMY BY THE WISE MANAGEMENT OF" 103 PRINT "YOUR RESOURCES. YOU WILL BE BESET FROM TIME TO TIME" 104 PRINT "BY NATURAL EVENTS. THE ONLY HELP I CAN GIVE YOU IS THE " 105 PRINT "FACT THAT IT TAKES 2 BUSHELS OF GRAIN AS SEED TO PLANT" 106 PRINT "AN ACRE. MAY YOU JUDGE WELL, ALKNOWING HAMURABI." 107 PRINT "***********HAMURABI IS HERE***********" 110 P=95 (...) > I'm fairly > sure I have a copy on one of the hard disks here, too. Somewhere :-) Heck, I've got my set of 4 8" SSSD floppies straight from Creative Computing with "101 Basic Games" and "More Basic Games". It's fun to fire up the IMSAI, load a game, fix the typos (yes, there are typos in many of the MBASIC sources!), and play a game of blackjack, lunar lander, or Hamurabi! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 9 months

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