- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by Marty＠itgonline.com

_____________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: ebay Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/26/98 3:54 PM On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > > 1. Bid more than anybody else through proxy bidding. This way when > > somebody else bids, the system will bid you up (to your max) automatically > > when someone else bids. If you want it bad enough, you can get it, but > > it may cost you. > > Jep, but to be shure, it has to be high, real high :( As high as $12,000? Only to have someone bid $12,100? > > 2. Learn the fine art of sniping. I live with a longtime e-bay user (my wife) > > who has the distinction of a 0 second snipe - it came in and was recognised > > some fraction of a second before the auction closed. She did it manually > > too. :) There IS sniping software, apparently, too. > > Just a NO. Maybe I'm stupid and old fashionated, > but sniping is just not possible. I stopped using eBay simply for this reason. The format makes it impossible to carry on a fair bid process and weed out the weenies. > > 3. My wife assures me that EVERYTHING comes around again, btw. Especially > > computers. She suggests patience. > > Jep, but this lot was real neat. > (And the next will be the one with the SC/MPs .. sigh). > I don't know if this will be around again, so nicly bundled >>If you look hard enough, you can ALWAYS find something around you, >>cheaper, and it won't cost you shipping. This is of course more true >>for some people than others (like a poor slob in Alaska trying to >>collect computers) but I've learned this lesson many times. Everything >>I've ever bought off eBay has turned up locally for a fraction of the >>price. Sometimes only a week later. Aren't you located in 'Silicon Valley?' You are located in an unusally fertile area for the old computer devotee. I live in the Washington, D.C. metro area which isn't bad but must pale in comparison to your locale. *sniff* **sob** Marty An alternate to eBay is needed. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct26.155454.1767.72657; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:54:55 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id MAA14085; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:52:33 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA19614 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:51:41 -0800 Received: from mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (mailhub2.ncal.verio.com [204.247.247.54]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id MAA32 588 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:51:40 -0800 Received: from shell1.ncal.verio.com (dastar(a)shell1.ncal.verio.com [204.247.248.254]) by mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06918 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:51:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.981026124842.13135B-100000(a)shell1.ncal.verio.com> Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:51:39 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: ebay In-Reply-To: <199810261856.TAA25057(a)marina.fth.sbs.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

27 years, 9 months

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ebay

by franke＠sbs.de

> 1. Bid more than anybody else through proxy bidding. This way when > somebody else bids, the system will bid you up (to your max) automatically > when someone else bids. If you want it bad enough, you can get it, but > it may cost you. Jep, but to be shure, it has to be high, real high :( > 2. Learn the fine art of sniping. I live with a longtime e-bay user (my wife) > who has the distinction of a 0 second snipe - it came in and was recognised > some fraction of a second before the auction closed. She did it manually > too. :) There IS sniping software, apparently, too. Just a NO. Maybe I'm stupid and old fashionated, but sniping is just not possible. > 3. My wife assures me that EVERYTHING comes around again, btw. Especially > computers. She suggests patience. Jep, but this lot was real neat. (And the next will be the one with the SC/MPs .. sigh). I don't know if this will be around again, so nicly bundled > 4. Finally, to avoid heartache from being sniped, don't assume you have > a thing until you get the notification you won. Until you get that, > the thing isn't yours. Sag but true. Ciao hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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AY 3500

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Anyone know anything about the famous AY-3500 chip, manufactured by >General Instruments, heart of a zillion Pong clones? What do you want to know? For pinouts and examples of use, you would find construction articles in then mid-late 70's issues of _Radio-Electronics_ and _Popular Electronics_ quite useful. Tim.

27 years, 9 months

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Haggle Online (RE: ePay)

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

> I'd > much rather this place be Haggle Online since that site has a specific > "Antique Computers" listing (http://www.haggle.com/cache/cat43.html). Since Haggle is actually owned by a member of this list, I wonder if we get to see all of the _really_ good stuff :) Kai

27 years, 9 months

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AY 3500

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>examples of this. The AY-3-8500 was developed in the Scottish labs of >General Instruments in 1975. Magnavox was somewhat involved in the It's not nearly the same as the AY-3-8500, but I just dug up my copy of _How To Design & Build Your Own Custom TV Games_ by David L Heiserman (1978). He describes systems based around TTL and linear IC's, some of them rather involved (over 100 SSI/MSI packages, in some cases!) Of course, there are no microprocessors involved... :-) Tim.

27 years, 9 months

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ePay

by franke＠sbs.de

>> I could imagine two possible ways - first add 1 hour after every >> (successful) bid. Or, second just state the ending day and put >> the ending time on a random moment. >> I would prefere the last one, because it would reflect the >> idea of proxy bidding - bid once and let the eBay do its job. > Ooh, I like that second idea! > For a long time, I've been advocating the first idea (automatic extension), > but it does have some drawbacks: > - Still requires that e-mail to the person outbid be faster than > the time remaining in the auction (a big problem now). > - Potential for the "never-ending auction". > - Offerer requirements that an auction *must* end by a certain time. Jep. If not eBay, maybe another system will pick up the idea. This could maybe give em the right difference for competition. The whole computer bidding idea is to save nerves. > As you can tell, I've bee sniped too. This is the first time I realy likes a thing so much, that I had put up a real high bid - and every thing seamed to work out well :( Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model I

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I know that towards the end of the Model I production run most of my fri < interested in buying were totally avoiding the basic 4k units. They end < up with level II machines and never saw the unit before modification. I < would be kinduv interesting to know if these units were built as level I < machines or modified at the factory, or at the store. By late '79 the LII machines were the rule. Lower cost of rams and roms plus competitive drive. Also most were factory LII using the two chip LII roms or leftover three chip version. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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BOFH

by roblwill＠usaor.net

um... it dosen't work. ---------- > From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: BOFH > Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 11:23 AM > > For sysadmins and everyone with a perverted sense of humor, you might enjoy > this site. A friend of mine turned me onto it a year or so ago, and almost > always puts a smile on my face! The URL is > http://www.networkweek.com/bofh.shtml.

27 years, 9 months

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ePay

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Sigh. >> I hate it. >> Sniped just seconds before the end. >> They should realy change their policy about >> ending time - these (automatic) snipers are >> realy not the way it should be. > Hard cheese! ??? I like hard cheese - hmm but I cant get the idea :=) > Snipers, shills, and all of the other nasty things, some legally shakey, > have been around since auctions were invented. Ebay is no different. eBay is different - a real auctioneer always gives the same amount of additional time after teh last Bid - ePay just cuts. I could imagine two possible ways - first add 1 hour after every (successful) bid. Or, second just state the ending day and put the ending time on a random moment. I would prefere the last one, because it would reflect the idea of proxy bidding - bid once and let the eBay do its job. > At > least there is no annoying auctioneer (actually an American thing - the > European auctioneers do not talk at several hundered words per minute). Funny to listen. > I have been in the same situation quite a few times with Ebay, and now I > must just live with bidding ONCE, and if I am outbid, then I do not win. > None of this high-stress, keep-hitting-the-reload-button, waiting for me. Ja- especialy when the ending time is something like noon EST (6PM MEZ) - that's the heavyest trafic time across the pond. My line was so slow, I needed some 5 Minutes for reloading :( Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information >about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software >wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure it ever really served the purpose of "getting information". There have always been better ways of obtaining the information you're after. >99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. I'd estimate that of the technical questions asked here, 95% of them have easily found answers at a web site or a Usenet FAQ. Strangely enough, though, few folks responding ever list these sources of information, so the cycle of "ask question with well-known answer/receive 20 followups containing the information" continues. Tim.

27 years, 9 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? >>Probably same place mine went: loaned, not returned. I still have ":More >>BASIC Computer Games: 84 Fabulous Games for Your Personal Computer", >>though. > Small world. One summer home from college, I loaned mine to the > kid brother of a girl I liked. A few weeks later I saw their > step-father who told me his wife had just left him and taken > the kids with her. Never saw any of them (the kid, the girl > or the book) again. Hard to loose a beloved one - and always about girls :) SCNR Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< > I know that Track get very touchy at 900Mcyc speeds but, I also knew t I've done RF, at that very touchy part starts at around 50MHz, by 100-200MHz coils are simple lengths and at 470mhz anything longer than 1/4" becomes significant. I did a power amp at 512mhz and the whole tuning and interconnect was all carefully calculated lengths of tracks. Even the board material and thickness was critical! I was lucky with the RF I could use one whole side as a ground plane! Oh, and quarter wave lines at operating clock speeds is a real nasty. < It helps to have some idea of RF and microwave design before attempting < to build a 1GHz circuit. Otherwise you are wasting your time. This is no < something you can fiddle with until it works unless the underlying < design and layout is sound. Like Tony said, guessing will have you making whole new baords for small changes. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...)

by franke＠sbs.de

> It sounds like this is a "bad" thing. Is it? If so why? It would seem that > eBay is making a market for older computers that before didn't exist. Now > is it that the 'old timers' who were used to picking up C64's at a garage > sale for $1 will now have to pay $25 are grumbling? Doesn't this > potentially increase the value of your own collection many fold? Isn't that > a good thing? As a matter of nature, I don't care for the monetary value of my collection. What I care is to get new exciteing finds. > Traditionally there is a rush of "collectible fever" (if > you've ever dealt with collectibles, and my Dad has for many more years > than I) where lots of people rush in an buy anything that may be > collectible hoping to get in at the bottom of the next "beanie" craze, then > there is a rush of junk dealers who prey on those bozos and come in and > sell them a bunch of "L@@K! R@RE!" Commodore 64's or 486SL machines for > over market prices, and then there is a general "crash" of the market as > the bozo's leave and prices go back to more rational levels (but usually > higher than they were before the "collectible" craze hit) and then, if they > are truely collectable (and there are many properties of things that make > them so) then the price begins to reflect actual rarity, condition, and > that imponderable "desirability." Actual rarity ? Hmm so lets see - a PET is more rare than a KIM ? Or a Apple I five hundret times rarer than a NASCOM-I ? Come real prices beside the usual 1 to 100 USD are just rubbisch. Just follow Jim about his Intellec/Altair thing. For shure, the Intellec is a nice thing, but everybody just looks at the Altair. I have to stay on swap meets and garage sales - and maybe I find an Apple 1 :))) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...)

by franke＠sbs.de

>>As long as there are people willing to shell out the bucks for the item >>they "demand" there will be someone else there to "supply." > Correct, in the USA the 'worth' of something is what some buyer somewhere > will pay for it, assuming you can notify said buyer that it is available > for sale. What's it worth to me to buy a poorly made bean bag animal? Not > even a dollar, but said animals sell at auction regularly for over $50 each. Short note - there's a quote in Germany: Jeden Tag steht ein Dummer auf, Du musst ihn nur finden. Literaly: Every day a dump person gets up, you just have to find him. > Hans made some comments on 'rare' versus 'desirable' too. The fact is that > 'desirable' often translates to those items that were perceived as being > significant in the history of the discipline in question. The Intellec > isn't percieved as being as historically significant as the Altair, hence > the price difference. The Apple 1 is seen as being the birth of a company > that is still significant today, VIC20's are seen less so. TRS-80's are > often seen as the first 'computer for the masses' (even though I would > argue the Apple ][ fit that role as well). Same with me. I realy would like ti get the Intellec, especialy see him running, but Jim has a price in mind, witch is (maybe cut by half) possible to get via eBay, but way out of my reach. The sad thing is that the buyer might only want parts for display, ("look what a nice old machine I have there in my hall" - "Oh, "what is is?" - "Just read, ts written there: Intellec" - "God help, how could they compute with only some lamps and switches?") and will eventualy take the whole configuration apart. > The education process will happen, and probably several people on this list > are in a position to write the books that appraisers and future shoppers > will live by. Consider the person who is born today, and will be in their > 30's in 2033. They get the urge to collect 'historical pre-millenium > computers.' and they will need help. They didn't "live the revolution" as > many of us have, so we have yet another chance to influence things in a > positive way. How could you just sound so positiv ? :) Gruss H. P.S.: I orderes a nice acrylic case this morning. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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eVay

by dogas＠leading.net

A broken IMSAI 8080 has shown up on eBay in case anyone is interested... Mike:-dogas@leading.net

27 years, 9 months

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Now quite OT: Re: ePay

by david_a._vandenbroucke＠hud.gov

Aaron says: >>I personally *hate* the proxy bid idea. At least how it works on eBay....The whole fun of an incremental auction is the small jumps in bidding and that soul-searching question you have to ask yourself each time you're outbid: "Do I really want to go a buck higher on that [insert item here]?" << Ah, well, there you go. I don't see auctions as something fun, particularly. I see them as a way to buy things, either things that I can't easily get any other way (such as old computers), or at a price below what I'd pay if I bought it retail. The process isn't a form of recreation for me. I'd prefer that eBay was either sealed auction or restricted to one bid per person, with the high bid being set as now, at an increment over the second highest. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke(a)hud.gov

27 years, 9 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!

by franke＠sbs.de

>> "Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >>> No application _requires_ any number of bits > 1. It's a question of >>> performance. After all, a Z80 could have 512M RAM, just not >>> contiguously (and would probably require a lot of hardware to access >>> it). >> >> OK, then the Z80 system will require 19 bits of address. Sure, >> some of those bits aren't coming directly out of the CPU, but >> they're coming from somewhere. > Actually the figure is 29 bits (it was 512M not 512K) but I agree with you > 100% in principle. > The way I look at it is this: [...] > I therefore see address buses growing at 16 bits every 30 years. That's > just over a bit every 2 years - slower than I expected but not much. > Someone (I forget who) said that memory chips double in capacity every 18 > months. This would give 16 bits in 24 years. Interesting szenario, especialy when connected to the Mores Law (didn't he tell this regarding integration ?). > I claim that the assertion that we'll see even 64-bit address spaces being > used anything like up by 2003 is unfounded. According to that growth rate > above, we will start hitting the limit of 48-bit addressing - 256 TWord - > in the '20s, and the limit of 64-bit addressing, 16 exawords (or exabytes, > possibly), in the '50s (or '40s at 1 bit per 18 months). Many of us will > probably still be alive then (I shall be celebrating my 83rd birthday in > March of 2050 ) Hmm I will have my 88th by then - jets join :) > - and I for one would like to see what sort of technology > will be used to store 16 exabytes in a space smaller than a mountain! The size isn't the real problem - you already get 16 Gig in less than 320 cm^3 (using hard disk technology) which is more than 100 Meg per cm^3, which gives us 100x100x100x100 Meg or 100 Tera per m^3 (Only heat will be a problem, but if we assume that this will shrink by the factor 2 within the next few years, we get enough space for cooling without developing a new technology). 100 Tera are 100x2^40 Bytes so, for 16 exabytes you need 10x2^18 m^3 or 64x64x64x10 m^3 - just the size of a ordinary 160 store skyscraper. Nothing real big - isn't it? - and especialy not a mountain. and if we assume a increasing density by 10 within the next years, it is less than a warehouse. This is all just (near) todays technology - the real problem is the access time .... A wire could come up to 100m between a starage device at the perhipherieal area and a 64 Bit computer in the middle - 100m thats just 1/3.000.000s or 333ns traveling time ... seams we have created some kind of piplineing prior to the CPU :) So, calulating a 1 us round trip time, we just could runn a 4 MHz Z80 ... hmm didn't he ask for 64 Bit Z80 ? (I just left the disc acces time out of calculation, but acording to any information availabel from disk manufacturers the internal caches will eliminate this almost to zero :) Gruss Hans P.S.: for 128 Bit address range we just have to enhance the building by a bit more than 1.000.000 in each direction. Giving a size of 5x128.000.000x128.000.000x128.000.000 m^3 or 5x128.000x128.000x128.000 km^3 compared to volume of earth 20.000x 20.000x 20.000 km^3 (just my memory) And dont forget the traveling time of signals of something like .6 seconds across the cube. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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ePay

by franke＠sbs.de

> Aw, that guy on the single board computers was slow... he bid a whole 11 > seconds before the end! Yesterday, I had somebody come in 6 seconds before > the end (luckily he didn't outbid, but he cost me money, dammit). Hey, do you want to get a laughter on me ... grrr. :) > We have a saying here in America... "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em". Now, > I never enter a bid until the last possible moment. Not possible at high traffic times over here. Also, I don't need this kind of auctions - eBay would be a real nice idea without snipeing. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Heathkit Advanced weather station backlight problem?

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

Greetings all; I've got the Heathkit 'Advanced Weather Station' (it fits the charter: its old and has a Z-80 running it! B^} ) which (still) seems to have the classic problem of blowing fuses (and other things) once or twice a year as the fluorescent tube used for the LCD backlighting ages. There was a rumour that Heath had developed a mod for the power supply to deal with this, but this was also right around the time that Heath was bailing out of the kit business and closing their retail outlets so the staff at the time was much less than interested in trying to track down this information. I've finally got annoyed enough at this recurring ritual, that it is either time to find a fix, or off the thing in favour of a 'Davis' unit (or similar) Anyone out there have the information on this mod? (or can confirm that it never existed?) Thanks; -jim --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

27 years, 9 months

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ebay

by jim＠calico.litterbox.com

How to get what you want on e-bay 1. Bid more than anybody else through proxy bidding. This way when somebody else bids, the system will bid you up (to your max) automatically when someone else bids. If you want it bad enough, you can get it, but it may cost you. 2. Learn the fine art of sniping. I live with a longtime e-bay user (my wife) who has the distinction of a 0 second snipe - it came in and was recognised some fraction of a second before the auction closed. She did it manually too. :) There IS sniping software, apparently, too. 3. My wife assures me that EVERYTHING comes around again, btw. Especially computers. She suggests patience. 4. Finally, to avoid heartache from being sniped, don't assume you have a thing until you get the notification you won. Until you get that, the thing isn't yours. -- Jim Strickland jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? -----------------------------------------------------------------------

27 years, 9 months

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ePay

by david_a._vandenbroucke＠hud.gov

I also play and collect board wargames, and for those a major trading center is rec.games.board.marketplace, although eBay is important too. In non-eBay auctions, it's common to use a going, going, gone format, with each step occuring after a couple of _days_ of no bids. That seems a much more reasonable way to make sure that everybody who wants to be heard from has the chance. I do like eBay's system of paying just over the second highest bid, as it lets you bid once and then wait until the end. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke(a)hud.gov

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model I

by dogas＠leading.net

I've seen a VOXBOX on eBay (already priced out of my range....alas) Anyone familiar with this equipment? Any anecdotes? -Mike dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 9 months

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ePay

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Aw, that guy on the single board computers was slow... he bid a whole 11 seconds before the end! Yesterday, I had somebody come in 6 seconds before the end (luckily he didn't outbid, but he cost me money, dammit). We have a saying here in America... "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em". Now, I never enter a bid until the last possible moment. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke [mailto:franke@sbs.de] Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998 10:32 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: ePay Sigh. I hate it. Sniped just seconds before the end. They should realy change their policy about ending time - these (automatic) snipers are realy not the way it should be. Waaaaaaaaah. Gruss H. sorry to use the list, but I had to cry ... I was happy until 5 minutes ago ... -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...)

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

In the catagory of: "it must get worse before it gets better" Starting Saturday (perhaps earlier, but the first that I noticed) eBay has been running radio spots on the national syndicate program feeds. As if there are not already enough (far too many) people out there with excessive $$ to throw around... -jim --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

27 years, 9 months

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FW: [HeathKit] HERO Robots for sale

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Semi-on-topic forward... -----Original Message----- From: John Hagle [mailto:jhagle@netsync.net] Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 9:43 PM To: heathkit(a)qth.net Subject: [HeathKit] HERO Robots for sale Hi all. I have eight of the robots and an assortment of parts. Some manuals. In fact, at this point I am not sure of what I actually do have. If there is sufficient genuine interest in someone purchasing it all, I will inventory the collection and forward the info so we can negotiate a price that is mutually fair. Reason for sale is that I have insufficient time to do the needed work and programming etc. The joys and perils of being self employed, I guess. Date: 10/23/98 Time: 9:43:17 PM John R. Hagle N2JH ex - AA2GV and WA2SXH 6534 Klondyke Road Ripley, New York 14775 phone: (716) 736-2932 grid - FN02dg Western New York 6 meters thru 1296 --- Submissions heathkit(a)qth.net

27 years, 9 months

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EDSAC celebration?

by franke＠sbs.de

> P.S. IMO history shows that British computer designs are often MUCH more > sensible than their American contemporaries. They treat the computer as a > tool to be used rather than a hunk of hardware with software slapped on later. > Too bad history shows that British computer *sales* are LESS successful than > their American counterparts. Thats not only about the Brits. When it's up for sales, the Americans are just numer 1 (maybe they had just absorbed to many magrebinian shopkeppers/merchants :) I heared a nice quote some time ago: When it comes for a new product, on should place development in Europe, production in Japan and sales in the US. Not so wrong at all Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Emulation or the real thing?

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

] From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> ] ] SO how long is it before some really enthusiastic hacker creates a 3D ] emulator using a graphics engine like that in DOOM, that allows you to pop ] ... And how long before the machine on which that emulator runs is no longer supported by its manufacturer, and starts breaking down? Well, I suppose by then, state-of-the-art systems will be able to emulate *that* thing faster than the original. Prediction: 100 years from now, pick any random business, and dig into their computer system. You will find that at least some of their software is "legacy code" running under an emulator for some long-forgotten machine. And if you dig further, you will find that at least one such emulator is itself being emulated. Don't be too surprised if the legacy app is IBM 360 code running under an emulator written for a Wintel x86 box, and the x86 box is being emulated by... maybe a Java (non-virtual) machine? Cheerful thought for the day: someday the Wintel x86 platform will be long-forgotten. :-) My $0.02, the original hardware pushes all of my motivation buttons harder than an emulator could. Nostalgia, Revenge, Education, Preservationism, Usability, Money; only usability *might* be completely satisfied by an emulator. Of course, the emulator pushes those buttons harder than a complete void would. In an odd way, an emulator could hit the Money button better than the original hardware: although it doesn't have higher resale value, it should be cheaper to obtain. But this was about which you'd rather have, not which you were more likely to succeed in getting, right? So maybe the real thing wins on the Money button as well. Hmm. It seems the emulator would push the motivation buttons for when NOT to collect, better than the real hardware would: Cost, Space, Noise, Breakdowns (for us software geeks, those are not exactly fun), Transportation, and Spousal discord; all the things associated with having physical STUFF. Bill.

27 years, 9 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by JRichardson＠softwright.co.uk

>> What the heck are you compiling that requires over 500M of RAM during the >> compilation step? Netscape? I can't even conceive of something that >>large. well we had a Java application that ran to 1.5 million lines of code (OK, the definition of a 'line of code' is somewhat flexible, but you get my point), and that would chew up somewhere around 500MB in order to build (this was about 16 months ago; my memory's hazy on the exact amount). luckily only about 30,000 lines of that were hand-written, we built a code generator to do the rest :) cheers Jules

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by roblwill＠usaor.net

I found that out. I was talking to the comp.tech guy at my school last week about getting a copy. He told me he'd be able to get me the new version for $50. Shows just how full of bull @#$% he is. Although he's the same guy that gave me a Tandy 1000TL because the "hard drive was shot". The power cable wasn't connected to it <g> -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: TRS-80 emulators > Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 9:14 PM > > On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > > > Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was > > going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get > > it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file > > Linux? Money? Heheheh. What stone have you've been hiding under junior? > > LINUX IS FREEE, MAN! > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] >

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model I

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> Speaking of A-F keys, does anyone here use any of the alternative > keyboards available for PC XTs and ATs? I'm curious if anyone has > ever seen the IrmaKey/3270 (IIRC) keyboards. They must have something > like 130 keys, but I have no idea how to program the macro keys. > Anyone know? I never saw a special keyboard for Irma. The IBM 3270-PC had a special cable with 3 connectors. One for the 3270 card, one for the keyboard port on the motherboard and one for the keyboard itself. The 3270 card trapped most of the extra keys. ISTR that Autocad had extra keypads and things that you could get for use alongside the PC keyboard, but I have no idea how they worked. Extra port I imagine. Philip.

27 years, 9 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> "Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> No application _requires_ any number of bits > 1. It's a question of >> performance. After all, a Z80 could have 512M RAM, just not >> contiguously (and would probably require a lot of hardware to access >> it). > > OK, then the Z80 system will require 19 bits of address. Sure, some of those > bits aren't coming directly out of the CPU, but they're coming from > somewhere. Actually the figure is 29 bits (it was 512M not 512K) but I agree with you 100% in principle. The way I look at it is this: Memory sizes are growing exponentially. So address bus widths can be expected to grow linearly. It has taken roughly 30 years between 64K words or bytes getting tight (early '70s, DEC up the Unibus from 16 bit addressing to 18 bit, but there's probably an example >from the late '60s) and now, when the 4 GWord or GByte address space of 32 bit addressing looks like it might get tight. (Note this is on small computers. On large computers, I'd estimate 10 years earlier in each case.) I therefore see address buses growing at 16 bits every 30 years. That's just over a bit every 2 years - slower than I expected but not much. Someone (I forget who) said that memory chips double in capacity every 18 months. This would give 16 bits in 24 years. I claim that the assertion that we'll see even 64-bit address spaces being used anything like up by 2003 is unfounded. According to that growth rate above, we will start hitting the limit of 48-bit addressing - 256 TWord - in the '20s, and the limit of 64-bit addressing, 16 exawords (or exabytes, possibly), in the '50s (or '40s at 1 bit per 18 months). Many of us will probably still be alive then (I shall be celebrating my 83rd birthday in March of 2050) - and I for one would like to see what sort of technology will be used to store 16 exabytes in a space smaller than a mountain! Philip.

27 years, 9 months

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Analog computer manuals available

by dcoward＠pressstart.com

Someone a while back mention that Heath's manual replacement service no longer carries manuals for the EC-1 computer. On a lark I decided to check if they carry manuals for Heath's original analog computer, the ES-400, introduced in 1956. They do! Here's a picture to refresh your memory. http://www.sou.edu/biology/analog.html#EAC If you went to VCF 2 and joined the tour of the Computer History Center's visual storage, you would have been able to touch one. I got these model numbers out of the 1959 catalog. So here are the model numbers and prices of the manuals that I know that Heathkit has: $35 ES-400 Cabinet and Front Panel $25 ES-201 DC Amplifier (the op-amps on top of the cabinet) $25 ES-100 Initial Condition Power Supply $25 ES-2 Amplifier Power Supply $20 ES-50 Reference Power Supply $20 ES-151 Relay Power Supply I received the last three, a week ago, and was extremely surprised to find that they had sent me original manuals and not copies. They told me that it was not a mistake, they had extra manuals. These 3 1960 manuals look just like new. I'm still searching for the Operations Manual for this computer. ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA =========================================

27 years, 9 months

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Acron (was:Re: Educational subsidies)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Slashdot.org has a story explaining that the UK school system can't >> afford NT 5 and are considering another OS. In light of this, people >> were bringing up Apple's success in schools in contrast to the current >> situation. > I thought that Acorn dominated the UK school system? Perhaps I heard > wrong. And speaking of Acorn - If I'm right informed they have just descided to stop building RISC-PCs - end of one more independant line of computers. I belive the last with roots in the 80s, and the last beside Apple. Or is there any other non Win/Intel/IBM manufacturer (beside Apple) for the consumer/non niche market manufacturer left ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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eVay

by franke＠sbs.de

>> There's also an Altair case (supposed to be like new) starting at $100 on there > I have been curious about what the January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics > would bring on ebay, and now we can all find out. Current price is $40.61 > and it will close at 21:20 PDT. The URL for anyone interested is > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37472905. I would > think that the Jan and Feb issues would be a bit more desireable, or for > that matter, all of the 1975, 1976, 1977, and maybe later volumes. Geeeee - I should sell any of my old issues on eVay - and some I even have tripple. Gruss H. (future millionaire) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by dburrows＠netpath.net

>Any Aussies out there know a good place to look for an ethernet adapter >that will fit a Microvax II? I have a nice machine, complete with VMS 5.4, >freshly rescued from a scrap metal yard, but it has no network adapter. For your ref. the delqa is a M7516 and add -YM for the "turbo" version. I just checked the DDA for any listed in Australia and none are listed. If you want I will go through the subscriber list and find some for you. >While I'm at it, AUI-10Base2(or t) transceivers are also getting rare, >(around here anyway) since I have a Vax 6220 in need as well, any good >sources? >S/H preferred. I'd like 2 or 3 if possible. I know it doesn't help much for shipping concerns but Datacom Warehouse carries them for about $25 either 10base2 or 10baset. www.warehouse.com >BTW, Huw, did you ever come across a source for a Vax 8530-Console cable? >(With that subject line, I just know you'll read this!) Which console cable are you looking for? I may have one. Dan Burrows 336-376-0468 dburrows(a)netpath.net

27 years, 9 months

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bit addressing, alignment, bus errors, and VM (was Re: PDP-10 arch question)

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> Incidentally, a quick quiz. Assuming all the virtual address space was > physical memory and you wanted to make a copy onto a disk drive > (32 Trillion Bytes - we didn't even have GigaBytes back in 1972, let alone > TeraBytes), how long would a sustained WRITE at 1 MByte/second take? > Hint: Answer should be in ONE digit of precision along with a time interval. > Eager beavers who want to give us 8 significant figures of precision > are disqualified. Just over 1 year Just under 400 days Quite a bit under 60 weeks Just under 13 months ... oops, that was 2 sig. figs. Rather more than 10 months then. If you want even sillier units, and at the risk of reviving an off-topic debate, rather more than 30 megaseconds. Could these disks do a megabyte per second in 1972? Sounds rather fast to me... Philip.

27 years, 9 months

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11/70 front panel

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> > What you probably have is the 11/70 Remote Diagnostic Console > > which allowed DEC to remotely diagnose the 11/70 (even when hung > > in a microcode loop or power fail routine) from Colorado. >Yes. It's the RDC console. I forgot the term. They both still have >their modems in the racks (but the yahoos from maintenance cut the lines >going in :-P ) Technically, the modem and the certain bits of the RDC could never be owned by the customer; these were always the property of Digital and the customer was forced to lease (well, the number was rolled into the field service contract.) When the field service contract ended, Digital was supposed to come remove these bits and reinstall the "real" front panel, but often neglected to do so. Tim.

27 years, 9 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

-----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland <jim(a)calico.litterbox.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, 26 October 1998 20:07 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >When last I looked - and this was 1993 or so - you could still buy the ethernet >interfaces for uVAX IIs from used system dealers. Dealers in things Digital are scarce around here. That's part of the problem. > Whatever you do, don't get stuck with a deqna board. Nothing after VMS 5.3 supports them. Ah. Ok, thanks for that. >You want a delqa or delqa YM board. The YM is the high performance version of >the delqa. In 1993 they cost about 300 bucks(US) a whack Ok, I'll try for one of those. Thank you. >They're probably more or less worthless now. *sigh* :) A$400 a tonne. At selected "Hi-Tech" scrap yards. FWIW, I got the MVII, plus 2 VS4000's, (a 90 & a 60), a swag of RZ55's, couple TK50's, couple VT220 & 320 terms a DS3100, a VS3100/M38, 2 Data General 88000 based Aviions running DGUX 5.4 V3.10 (Sys 5 R4 + bits of BSD) and 2 Interpro 19" Colour RGBHV monitors for $160. Plus sundry keyboards etc. The MVII and a couple of the VS still have VMS 5.4 or 5.5 on them. (A small cluster is in the works :^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)

27 years, 9 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

Hi all, Any Aussies out there know a good place to look for an ethernet adapter that will fit a Microvax II? I have a nice machine, complete with VMS 5.4, freshly rescued from a scrap metal yard, but it has no network adapter. While I'm at it, AUI-10Base2(or t) transceivers are also getting rare, (around here anyway) since I have a Vax 6220 in need as well, any good sources? S/H preferred. I'd like 2 or 3 if possible. BTW, Huw, did you ever come across a source for a Vax 8530-Console cable? (With that subject line, I just know you'll read this!) You mentioned some time back that you might know where one was. The Pro380 console for it now has a new hard disk, with the console software successfully installed, it just needs a cable to make the poor old beast functional. (Backplane permitting) I see what you mean about the backplane too. Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)

27 years, 9 months

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Emulation or the real thing?

by H.Davies＠latrobe.edu.au

At 12:14 PM 21-10-98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, John Foust wrote: > >> This reminds me of a claim I hear in Y2K discussions, but can hardly >> believe: that businesses are running the same *executables* since >> the 1950s/60s/70s, and that they don't have the source code to fix it. Well, here is an edited directory listing from our main VMS cluster: MPCASM.DOC;1 24-NOV-1980 16:33:05.00 MPCASM.EXE;1 24-NOV-1980 16:33:06.00 TEKLIB.OLB;1 24-NOV-1980 16:33:14.66 Now the hardware is considerably newer than the files, but I can guarantee that I don't have the sources for these. (MPCASM is an assembler for a 6800 and TEKLIB is a library for Tektronix 4010 terminals...). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green"

27 years, 9 months

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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< As far as I know, no x86 or 68xxx processor has ever had any degree of < fault tolerance withing the chip, where it is needed. Getting it externa Big time problem. Fault detection and instruction resequencing arent there. That makes even a simple parity error in ram unmanageable. < Most mainframes, even ones from the 1960s, have error checking throughou < the entire system - even in the paths between the registers and ALU. If I was told a story about an old 700 series where the cooling water for the rooms chiller found a leak. The leak was in the hundreds of gallons a minute rate. Oh, the 700 series is a vacuum tube machine so the under floor cable troughs have data and power cables galore. Seems the machine was still running fine when water started gushing out the bottom pannels of the racks. All the interconnection cables and PS units were soaked and it still ran! They shut down, fixed the pipe and dried the room and fired everything back up no problem. It was a general presumption that the machines due to the large number of parts would be unreliable. The designs were robust to say the least and in practice they were reliable, often far better than predicted. < something goes wrong, like a gate goes into a "stuck at" condition, the < redundant circuits and error correctors will jump into action and < processing will not stop. Most machines will call home and have Fault tolerence is an art in itself. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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11/70 front panel

by pechter＠shell.monmouth.com

> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:15:43 -0400 (EDT) > From: Ethan Dicks <erd(a)infinet.com> > To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Subject: PDP-11/70 rescued! > Message-ID: <199810231315.JAA24826(a)user2.infinet.com> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > The Computer Quonset Hut has its first aquisition - a pair of PDP-11/70's > with peripherals. Lucky guy. > My biggest disappointment is that the CPUs have the corporate front panel, > not the programmer's front panel. Anyone have a spare front panel they > want to trade? ;-) Actually the panel is better in some ways (except looks) than the 11/70 front panel. I do prefer the DECdatasystem 570 (I think) 11/70 blue corporate cabinet front panel for style. (The 11/74 used almost the same front panel -- YES I did work with an 11/74 in DEC Princeton... They did exist... The "programmer's" front panel doesn't exist for the PDP11/70. What you probably have is the 11/70 Remote Diagnostic Console which allowed DEC to remotely diagnose the 11/70 (even when hung in a microcode loop or power fail routine) from Colorado. The front panel hooks to a microprocessor controlled card which interfaced to a 300 or 1200/300 baud DEC or Racal Vadic modem (in auto answer mode) when the key is in remote. Colorado would run a diagnostic chain, examine the bus, read error logs etc. > > -ethan > > P.S. ISTR that PDP-11/70's and VAX-11/750's use the same hex-height 39-bit > ECC memory boards. Is this true? I know that 750's had 256K and 1Mb > boards (and eventually 4Mb boards), but every jump up required a new > memory controller (and backplane wires ;-) What's the scoop on the 11/70? They do use the same ones... I don't think the 11/70 supported more than the 256k MS-11K boards, though. Bill ex-DEC Field Service...

27 years, 9 months

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Bid list

by dburrows＠netpath.net

If anyone else wants to bid on the list please get them to by 9:00 in the morning (EST). I will respond with a copy of what I have to submit with everyone's name on their group of items. Please check your section and part # to be sure they are correct. To keep peace with the family I can't respond anymore tonight. Thanks Dan

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model I

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 23:33:33 +0000 (GMT) >Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu >From: ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model I > >> When I was a kid I tho't that the keypad was incredibly lame because it >> didn't have a comma key. The only thing I would ever use it for would have > >And I didn't like it because it didn't have A-F on it. Once a machine >code programmer, always a machine code programmer and all that :-) > >That's why I never bought the keypad for my original Model 1. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model I

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Speaking of A-F keys, does anyone here use any of the alternative keyboards available for PC XTs and ATs? I'm curious if anyone has ever seen the IrmaKey/3270 (IIRC) keyboards. They must have something like 130 keys, but I have no idea how to program the macro keys. Anyone know? > >> When I was a kid I tho't that the keypad was incredibly lame because it >> didn't have a comma key. The only thing I would ever use it for would have > >And I didn't like it because it didn't have A-F on it. Once a machine >code programmer, always a machine code programmer and all that :-) > >That's why I never bought the keypad for my original Model 1. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by fauradon＠pclink.com

There are some distributions that are sold for $50 but they usually include book and phone support plus some sort of installation program Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Jason Willgruber <roblwill(a)usaor.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 9:11 PM Subject: Re: TRS-80 emulators >I found that out. I was talking to the comp.tech guy at my school last >week about getting a copy. He told me he'd be able to get me the new >version for $50. > >Shows just how full of bull @#$% he is. > >Although he's the same guy that gave me a Tandy 1000TL because the "hard >drive was shot". The power cable wasn't connected to it <g> >-- > -Jason >(roblwill(a)usaor.net) > ICQ#-1730318 > >---------- >> From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >> Subject: Re: TRS-80 emulators >> Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 9:14 PM >> >> On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: >> >> > Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was >> > going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to >get >> > it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the >file >> >> Linux? Money? Heheheh. What stone have you've been hiding under >junior? >> >> LINUX IS FREEE, MAN! >> >> Sellam Alternate e-mail: >dastar(a)siconic.com >> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >--- >> Ever onward. >> >> Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 >> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! >> [Last web site update: 09/21/98] >> >

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model I

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Anyone know how many of the TRS-80 model I computers were made without t < numeric keypad? I remember a discussion a year or so ago where someone < the UK was looking specifically for one without the keypad. In checkin < through my collection, I only found one without the keypad, and am just < curious. Quite a few, I'd speculate over 50,000 for sure. The keypad was an option that was very frequently added though so many originals were keypadded, LII'd and 16k'd. It's rare to see a stock TRS80 that hasn't had factory and customer mods. Other common mods to the base console: * Lovercase chars, (add a 2102 and a jumper, etch cut). +++started as customer mod, then DEPOT repair mod.+++ * ^(CTRL) key so ^C and other characters could be done. ===Customer mod. * Cassette load mod, small board with 4040 counter and a gate to prevent cload hang under LII. +++Depot repair, factory LII mod+++ * CPU clock speed up (bump the clock from 1.7mhz to 3.4mhz). ===customer mod. Some companies also sold some of these mods as kits. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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DEC VAX 6220

by mbg＠world.std.com

Folks - apparently this unit (may or may not have disks - the person who posted about it is unsure) may be trashed if not spoken for by monday... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 9 months

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wanted: sheet feeder for HP ScanJet 3c

by eric＠brouhaha.com

OK, so it's not ten years old and therefore it isn't a classic. But I use my ScanJet 3C to scan documents *about* classic computers, and make them available on the web. For instance, the PDP-10 documentation at http://www.36bit.org/ So if anyone has an ADF (sheet feeder) that they're willing to sell, please let me know. The one HP intended for it was the C2525A, but I think the C2525B (for ScanJet 4C) and C6265A (for ScanJet 6100C) will work as well. Also, the C1751A (for the ScanJet IIc & IIcx) might work. Thanks! Eric

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model I

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> Gradually I learned to use the pesky number keys at the top of the keyboard > and ignored the numeric pad completely. Even today I ignore the numeric pads > because they don't have comma keys on them. What happens when you come across the One True Keyboard (VT100) or its descendants, which do have a comma on the keyboard like god intended? There's even a DEC keyboard - the LK250 - which has a comma on the keypad and works on PC-clones. Tim.

27 years, 9 months

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