- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

Another thought on 10baseT vs 10Base2: was Re: Microvaxen bits etc.

by go＠ao.com

I just had to stick in my 2.1 cents worth (inflation, you know...) on this issue. I will *never again* use 10base2 for plant wiring for the simple reason that 10base2 (and 10base5) provide a ready path for "ground loops" between all the equipment sharing the cable. It's true that the "grounds" are "supposed" to be isolated (to the tune of several Kvolts) from the computer connection, but, believe me: "sh*t happens." And the results can be dangerous. 10baseT is designed to be isolated at every connection point in the "star" configuration (high-isolation transformer coupling,) so there is a much less likely path for the "big ugly voltage" from one piece of defective equipment that just happens to be shorted to the Ethernet 10base2 cable. You don't get killed when you reach behind your computer and grab the Ethernet cable and suddenly find it has 480vac on it due to some stupid short in a control cabinet. If the 10baseT cable is shorted, the hub has a high potential, but it never makes it out to any of the other cables plugged into the hub. Both of these scenarios assume correctly isolated cable-to-interface connections. It's just there is nothing isolating the bad stuff from you when you touch the cable shield. The necessary hub on 10baseT keeps the bad stuff from getting past the first short - assuming you *do* use a hub... And making 10baseT connections (with the proper 50US$ tool) is MUCH FASTER than making coax connections, if speed is important. Of course, the better (best?) approach is 10baseF, but it isn't readily available for us with home installations (at least not at the price *I* want to pay.) Gary

27 years, 9 months

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Noise levels have become deaf

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Exactly what I do to other loud-mouthed salesmen. If they want to babble about crap, go the the neighbor's house. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Bill Richman <bill_r(a)inetnebr.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf > Date: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 10:55 AM > > Hmm... Looks like Sweet Sam decided that if he couldn't shout me down, he'd > just slam the door in my face. What a guy! > > --- > > Return-Path: <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> > Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:21:11 PST > Reply-To: listproc(a)u.washington.edu > Sender: listproc(a)u.washington.edu > From: University of Washington ListProcessor <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> > To: bill_r(a)inetnebr.com > Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > X-UIDL: ee07c31fcdb321395d34af85335a15b0 > > Dear user, > > your request > > UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > > has been successfully processed. > > You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP (classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). > Thank you for being with us. > > > > Bill Richman > incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r > (Home of the COSMAC Elf > microcomputer simulator!) >

27 years, 9 months

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FS: Assembly Language on 360/370 book

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

I was considering keeping this, but I came to the realization it is incredibly unlikely I'll ever have the desire to learn assembly on the 360. :-) Assembly Language Fundamentals 360/370, OS/VS, DOS/VS by Rina & Joshua Yarmish 768 pages, hardback $5 shipped. Tom Owad -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>

27 years, 9 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Address bus should be as wide as you think you might need plus a bit mor < As Allison said (again! Why oh why did I delete her post?) you want you < processor to be able to think about huge memories even if you can't buil < them and have to swap to disk. Actually the addres bus can be smaller than register size. For example we could build an 80 bit machine with 60bit address busses. The 60 bits is more than enough to address most likely memory needs for a long while yet if you need to do address math or other math 80bit long registers may make it much easier. The datapath bus can be any size as well but larger is generally better. The assumption of symetry is likely the most false. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

-----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, 28 October 1998 14:19 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >Oh well... Another useful product becomes unavailable thanks to progress... > Seems that way. I may have found a source of new ones, but the price is a bit much. S/H ones seem to disappear as soon as they come out of service. >> Most network cards produced these days don't have AUI ports on them. >Yes, a lot of them are 10 base T only. Even though (IMHO) 10 base 2 makes >more sense for a small home network (no need to have a hub) and BNC plugs >are a lot easier to wire than those RJ45 things. Oh, RJ45's are no problem provided you have a decent tool. I use crimp on BNC's as well. I have a mix of both on my home network and at my shop. The school is all cat 5 now. >Fortunately, I got a load of transceivers at a radio rally with minor >faults (mostly open-circuit connections on the BNC connector). Lucky boy. >If there's a 16 pin chip near the BNC connector marked 83C92 or something >like that, then it can be made into a transceiver. You can either raid >the bits off the card or (Hey, a good idea...): >A lot of cards have 6 links that you have to move to select between AUI >and 10 base 2. They simply link the appropriate signals from the logic on >the card either to the AUI connector or to the internal transceiver. It >should be possible to feed signal from an AUI 'input' to the right pins >on those links, apply power (you probably only need the +12V line) to the >card and avoid a lot of work. <GRIN> Actually, this thought also crossed my mind whilst gazing at just such a card. I'm going to try that. I have an NE2000 clone card I'm going to try and convert to a txcvr. I think it needs +-12v and +- 5v, but that's not a big problem. (Diskless workstation PSU) >If you want to try this, then you'll need to trace out the schematic >around the links. It's worth knowing that most of the pulse transformers >used to isolate the logic signals at the transceiver contain 3 little >transformers in a 16 pin DIL package on pins (1,2,15,16), (5,6,12,13), >(7,8,9,10). Yep, can see them. >Trace the secondaries to the transceiver chip and then you >know what each transformer section is for (one will be Tx Data, one >RxData, one Collision). Alternatively, trace the link connections to the >ethernet chip on the card, but it may be more difficult to get data on >that. Not even gonna try. A direct patch into the txcvr from the AUI port with a little xover cabling ought to do it. > Did I mention that you'll need the data sheets on the transceiver chip? You did. Know a source? Online one preferably? >The pinout is : <snip> Got it, thanks for that. >> connect them. > >The cable is special :-(. It's 4 twisted pairs + shields (which you link >to the ground pins). One of the twisted pairs is thicker than the other >3, and is used for power. I imagine most anything will probably work, provided the leads are kept short. I have some shielded audio stuff that should do nicely. Something to experiment and tinker with for a while. :^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)

27 years, 9 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

Hans Franke wrote: >>>> I therefore see address buses growing at 16 bits every 30 years. That's >>>> just over a bit every 2 years - slower than I expected but not much. >>>> Someone (I forget who) said that memory chips double in capacity every >>>> 18 months. This would give 16 bits in 24 years. > >>> Interesting szenario, especialy when connected to the Mores Law >>> (didn't he tell this regarding integration ?). > >> Thanks. That's the one I'm thinking of - the amount of memory you get on >> the same area of silicon doubles every 18 months. > > Basicly I think its about integrations and transistor > equivalents, but this is just linear to the size of memorys. > > In fact, to come back to the original question, Arfon > just took doubling of address space and doubbling of > data bus width for the same thing, but in fact they > are two different functions - widening data bus is > linear, while widening address bus is to the square > (sorry, my mathematical english just stops here). > This means doubble the data bus just doubbles the > date transfer rate (the only thing the data bus is > needed for) or w'=w+w. But doubbling the address bus > is putting the address range (and thats what the > address bus is for) to the square or r'=r*r. > > So, while a 256 or 512 bit data bus is usefull (and > already in use in main frames - only called data path), > even a 128 Bit address bus is just nonsense. Hmm. "Square" isn't the best way of putting it. In English we generally call that an "exponential" or "power" function: for an address bus of n bits the size of the memory is 2^^n words (pronounced "two to the power of n"). That's what I was getting at in my post. I agree totally that data paths should be as wide as possible. It wasn't just vaxen (Good post, Allison. A lot of very good points that I hadn't thought of) and mainframes that did that - the PERQ was a 16 or 20 bit machine but the memory data path was 64 bits wide (Help! Tony, you know more about this!) and fetched 4 words at a time for the processor to chew on, then 4 words for the video, 4 words for the I/O etc. Huge increase in speed. Address bus should be as wide as you think you might need plus a bit more. As Allison said (again! Why oh why did I delete her post?) you want your processor to be able to think about huge memories even if you can't build them and have to swap to disk. Philip.

27 years, 9 months

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A Proposal (was - Re: Noise levels increasing and....)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> What's the point in proposing another list? If you want to try the >> experiment, build it. Make it happen. > Read the proposal. It isn't strictly a separate list. It is a list > connected by a one-way umbilical cord to the current list. It can't be > done by just creating another list. It has to be done on the current > server. Whether the list software is malleable enough to be shaped to the > task, I do not know. I am leaving it to others to comment on the > technical issue. The idea is to experiment and create a parallel flood > channel for certain things that run hot for a couple of weeks but are not > completely on topic. I don't think this is a "bozo" idea, and I hope you > will ponder its implications for more than a few minutes. I belive your idea could still be done on a second server. For your proposed testrun, a real check about the members of ClassicCmp to allow access for the sidebar list is not needed. The listserver will only be made public thru this list, so any subscription from outside is kind of uncommon. And even if there are some few, they shouldn't change the result in a real way. If the idea is right, an add on for the 'real' server might be made. Or we keep the second and just exchange the member list every other week to check the data base and we get another foot to stay on. Merging both lists into one folder should be no problem for any mail client out there (also splitting it up again into several theme folders). Gruss Hans P.S.: No, Steve, no comment on the subject, it's just a technical response. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Doug and the Zuses (was:Re: KEITH, WE HARDLY KNEW YOU w

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Oh, did they pull of the DDR 1 Meg chip from display ? >> I belive this is the most funny Display _and_ a thing >> to think about with its implications. > They still had that display, but I don't remember falling over due to its > implications. Maybe the sign was in (East) German. What did I miss? (A > museum of eastern european technology would be pretty cool.) I might be proved wrong, but I belive this chip had a vital role to turn down the wall. In 1985 the Eastern German government decided that they had to pull up with a 1 Meg chip to show that their system is able to do all the same fine things than the west, all of us might temember that the 1 Meg thing was kind of journalists pussy when talking about the future back then. They already cloned the 80286. For the next years they poured all resources within electronic and process development into this project. It was almost like the idea of building a a PDP-8 >from scratch that has been around :) Of course, they already had a technology to produce 64k and prototype 256k, but without any help from outside it's kind of uncomfortable. Short before the wall came down, they finished, but at what cost: the whole development was sucked up into this single project - anything els was almost like stopped even production of actual components suffered. So this project added a lot to the economoc problems witch eventualy lead to the end of their system You know - people without video games and home computers tend to think about dangerous things (<g>). I'm not telling that this development has been the mayor reason, but it added stress to an already stressed system. Gruss Hans P.S.: There are only parts of the Z23 on display in Bonn - basicly only the drumm and drumm controll (AFAIR) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> even breaking the lists in two - on and off topic >>> so that ppl with common interests can also talk about other things (like >>> experiences) >>> both lists would die though > I actually had a similar thought and it could work. Is it > possible to create an off-topic mailing list that is not publicly > advertised and cannot be subscribed to unless one were already a > subscriber to the on-topic one? Those that want the on-topic list > could get that, those who want both would get both and no one could > subscribe to only the off-topic one. The unwritten rule is that no new > topic could be spontaneously generated on the off-topic one and the > only new threads allowable would be those banished from the on-topic list. > Of course threads would be allowed to meander and mutate once they were > released to the off-topic list. This is just a thought. It certainly > would allow for these brief hot torrents of opinion on semi off-topic > material to run their course without inconveniencing those who wish to > only see hardcore tech info. The off-topic list would be like a sidebar > only accessible to those who read the on-topic one. Nice talk, but just think how hard it seams to be just to change the Subject line at the right moment AND to get all participants into changing it - not to mention the time delay. This is just an international thing - when I get up and have a first look at it Allison is still sleeping, Uncle Roger (or the other US West Coast guys) are just about to find their sleeping position, while Olminkhof is right about to leave the office - I've seen these things from other lists and news groups. It is just impossible. It is even impossible to live such a policy within a worldwide collaboration tool for a project. Even when corporate and special rules try to enforce it. And Moderation is just the dead of any list (maybe beside a anouncement list for 0190 (1-900) services, where they don't need any spontanous answer. >> This is not IRC, it is a mailing list. There is no need to use the >> silly little abbreviations designed to "speed up" on-line chat and >> the typing of same. Use English or as close an approximation as you >> can. Capital letters help as well as punctuation -- a carriage return Thank you. I hope I'm not hurting your eyes to hard. Fact is that some abbrevation like SCNR or AFAIK/R are thruout usefull, and fixed, so they can be used like IBM or VAX. But, I also dislike this ur2slw4me stuff - I need twice the to read it than regular. > Hey---just kidding around!! There are times this list > seriously lacks any sense of humor. It is ? I found some real good ones in the list :) Gruss H. P.S.: and for NINE mails in one day - I prefer to answer or comment directly, just to keep it small (ok, ok, I know I tend to elaborate whole bibles if I like something) and simple. Writing a mail composing several themes - what should it be named ? - where should it link ? And who will read it ? Just beside from the problem I would have to use additional word processing tools to combine it with the impossibility to keep an overview - I still have to do some regular job in my spare time. P.P.S.: Satisfied ? -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Classiccmp Friendly Pinout Page Update/Request

by aaron＠wfi-inc.com

Ok, I've gotten most of my stash transcribed into text documents on the site. The exception is the bus section, which contains a list of those pinouts that I have but am still working on. Anyway, what this really is is a request to people to dig through their piles of old docs and add some pinouts that aren't there yet. Tony Duell has offered to do PERQ machines, and anyone is welcome to contribute anything that's not there already. I put a file in the "pinouts" directory named "contributors.txt" which contains specific info about who is working on what. Please respond to me privately about this. URL: http://www.prinsol.com/classiccmp/ Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." --> Scott Draves

27 years, 9 months

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DOS disks?

by JRichardson＠softwright.co.uk

>> When I typed "system disk" I meant one >> with an appropriate collection of utilities, which with code bloat >> can be hard to fit on a 720k disk -- since "edit" needs "?basic" etc. Get the GNU DOS port of vi - has the benefit of being a standard, very powerful, reliable and takes up 120KB or so (OK, that's a lot more than ideal for an editor, but at least you don't need all the extra garbage that you have to have with standard MS-DOS 'edit') - of course, if you've never used vi before, you're gonna hate it :) (not wanting to kick off an off-topic thread in light of the current 'problems' on this list, anyone know how to get MS exchange client 4 to do the auto-include of the '>' quote chars above? I'm sick of having to do it by hand! Email privately, please! :) cheers Jules

27 years, 9 months

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DOS disks?

by zmerch＠30below.com

At 04:25 PM 10/28/98 -0000, you wrote: >Get the GNU DOS port of vi - has the benefit of being a standard, very >powerful, reliable and takes up 120KB or so (OK, that's a lot more than >ideal for an editor, but at least you don't need all the extra garbage >that you have to have with standard MS-DOS 'edit') - of course, if >you've never used vi before, you're gonna hate it :) [snip] Well, not if you're accustomed to TS-EDIT on the Tandy Color Computers! vi is a superset (I believe -- been a long time since I used TS-EDIT) but the CoCo clone is a fairly complete implementation of it. One thing about vi / TS-EDIT: 'tis a pain in the rear to use, until you get accustomed to the commands. If you do become highly accustomed to editor, you can go *very fast* with it. Boy, I miss those good old days... ;-) "Merch"

27 years, 9 months

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8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II stuff!)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> For anyone interested (Larry).... I am going home (to Virginia) for >thanksgiving and I will pull out one of my model IIs and get all of the >still useable software and manuals. I will make copies available to >anyone who wants if someone can tell me how to copy the 8" discs to a file >on a PC (either using Linux or Dos). > I can serial port the machines togethet but, I have no idea how to read >off all the sectors of the 8 inches. This is a question that has been dealt with very thoroughly in the past. Sydex (http://www.sydex.com/) has some very excellent software available for dealing with "foreign" floppy formats, and can deal with many (but not all) 8" floppy formats. Instead of going into great detail on how to use these tools, I will instead just refer you to the CP/M FAQ at http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/CPM-faq/faq.html specifically, Q14: "Can I read my 8" disks with my PC?" I hope nobody takes this reply as a brush-off as a result of a good fraction of my business coming from reading old media, including (but by no means limited to) 8" floppy disks. Even though references to non-mailing-list resources seem to very sparse on the CLASSICCMP mailing list, I just want folks to know that there *are* very useful FAQ's out there that deal with the issue thoroughly already. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 9 months

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Road trip/vintage sources

by dcoward＠pressstart.com

Tim said: >One decent source in the area is the Terrapin Trader, the University >of Maryland's surplus outlet in College Park. For more info, see > > http://www.inform.umd.edu/PURCHASE/terptrad/ > Thanks Tim. Speaking of road trips: Next month I going to take my two weeks vacation to retrieve our belongings from storage in Manassas Virginia, where we left them 11 years ago. I'm excited to be finally getting my two analog computers out here to California. Anyway, we will be driving back to California from Nov 14-22. I'm hoping to stop at a few places on the way back, looking for (real old) computer stuff. We already plan to stop in Pennslyvania,Ohio - Lima and Aurora, Michigan - Benton Harbor and Ann Arbor,Chicago,St. Louis,and New Mexico - Albuquerque. If anyone knows of good places to look, and want to share the secret, let me know. What kind of places? Places that dark and dirty. Places with junk arranged in piles. Places with vacuum tube equipment. (I would love to find an example of a vacuum tube analog computer) Places you won't want your kids to play in. On another note: Does anyone in Florida have more information about the plans to tear down the original control room at the Kennedy Space Center? (It was on the news) ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA =========================================

27 years, 9 months

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Noise levels have become deaf

by danjo＠xnet.com

What - you got one too???? Now I can not swear it is Samnie's handiwork but after get a copy of the Unsubscribe message from the listproc admin I am pretty sure I will be able to hunt down the source. It's more of a nuisance attack anyway... Tho I think DOS is more like it.... > From listproc(a)u.washington.edu Wed Oct 28 11:45:06 1998 > Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:22:33 PST > From: University of Washington ListProcessor <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> > To: danjo(a)xnet.com > Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > > Dear user, > > your request > > UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > > has been successfully processed. > > You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP(classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). > Thank you for being with us. BC

27 years, 9 months

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Ohio Scientific C3 OEM available

by bill＠chipware.com

I have exchanged email with this guy already, seems like a nice guy. The machine is in Chicago. Correspond directly with him if interested. AZOTIC <azotic(a)aol.com> wrote: >Any one have an idea what a old >OHIO SCIENTIFIC OEM C-3 >is worth. 8" floppy drives. rs232 >terminal, tripple proccessors >even got the repair manuals. I >plugged it in, and it still works. >any collectors ? I need some new >toys.

27 years, 9 months

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Doug and the Zuses (was:Re: KEITH, WE HARDLY KNEW YOU was: Noise

by franke＠sbs.de

> I saw a Zuse 23 last week at the Deutsches Museum in Bonn. Pretty > cool (the first transitorized Zuse), but that was just about the only > classic computer they had on display. Oh, did they pull of the DDR 1 Meg chip from display ? I belive this is the most funny Display _and_ a thing to think about with its implications. Gruss Hans Disclaimer: And of coure, I told him to come to Munich and see the real stuff like a Z3 or 2002 (No, not the 70s BMW, but the first (or maybe second, if the Mailuefterl group is right) running fuly transistorised machine) but no, he just had the less interesting part ... :) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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MS_DOS 2.11 (Was: DOS disks?

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Very interesting! I learn something new every day! But, was the source available to the public? If not, it's not much different from NT now, which makes source available under an NDA. >MS-DOS 2.11 was a very special version. It was the one where Microsoft >explicitly supported OEM modifications. Even the source code to IO.SYS >was obtainable! Each manufacturer that had something weird could make >their mods to it. For example: PC-DOS 3.20 was the first one to support >720K floppies. But LOTS of MS-DOS 2.11 variants support 720Ks. (NOT ALL >WITH THE SAME DISK FORMAT!!) Or the manufacturer could modify IO.SYS so >that pressing Ctrl+Alt+Meta+CokeBottle switches to power-saving "suspend >mode", etc. > >Accordingly, 2.11 was usually tied to a given manufacturer. DG 2.11 was >not quite the same as Gavilan 2.11, etc. Typically, MODE.COM would be >heavily customized, and frequently IO.SYS would have a few differences. >For example, Gavilan 2.00, 2.10 or 2.11 all supported 3.5" disks, but >only 2.11 worked right. And 2.11K, 2.11L, etc. also supported double >sided disks. > >If you CAN, try to find a copy of that 2.11 for your machine; the one >modified by the hardware manufacturer to work with the weirdities of your >hardware. If you choose to use one of the newer versions of DOS (6.2x is >the most reliable for a couple of reasons), at least keep a copy available >of the MODE.COM that was customized for your machine. You might need to >use SETVER, or disassemble and look for the code that goes: >MOV AH, 30h >INT 21h >CMP AX, > >Using the newer version of DOS MIGHT cut you off from some of the >customizations, but hopefully MODE.COM may have most of the ones that you >need, such as MODE LCD , etc. > >-- >Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com >2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 >Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > >On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > >> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > >> > Weeeeeeeell, I landed a Data General One laptop. Normally I eschew MS-DOS >> > based machines, simply because I'm a racist pig etc., but this one has an >> > interesting notebook mode and a built-in terminal program at 1200bps. Except >> > that the screen is harder to read than James Joyce, it seems like a winner >> > and it works great. >> > >> > Question. Anyone know what version of DOS this uses? Does someone have any >> > boot disks out there, or at least have the system files available for >> > download? The drives are 3.5" DD, right? >> >> Came as I recall with MS-DOS 2.11, should use anything up to 6.22, >> though of course it's tricky building a 720k 6.22.system disk. 3.3 >> is probably your best bet, although I think there were some hardware >> specific utilities on the original material that might come in rather >> handy. Nice machine -- the only DOS laptop to tempt me prior to the >> Zenith SuperSports. >> -- >> Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/> >> >> WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, >> and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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Noise levels have become deaf

by Marty＠itgonline.com

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/28/98 10:56 AM Hmm... Looks like Sweet Sam decided that if he couldn't shout me down, he'd just slam the door in my face. What a guy! --- Return-Path: <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:21:11 PST Reply-To: listproc(a)u.washington.edu Sender: listproc(a)u.washington.edu From: University of Washington ListProcessor <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> To: bill_r(a)inetnebr.com Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN X-UIDL: ee07c31fcdb321395d34af85335a15b0 Dear user, your request UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP has been successfully processed. You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP (classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). Thank you for being with us. > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists5.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct28.105618.1767.73348; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:56:18 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id HAA18374; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:53:33 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id HAA60506 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:53:29 -0800 Received: from falcon.inetnebr.com (falcon.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.1]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id HAA29 424 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:53:28 -0800 Received: from mail.inetnebr.com (sentinel.walco.com [206.222.203.20]) by falcon.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA14454; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:53:27 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199810281553.JAA14454(a)falcon.inetnebr.com> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:55:39 -0600 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: bill_r(a)inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu, danjo(a)xnet.com X-Sender: bill_r(a)inetnebr.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

27 years, 9 months

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eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...)

by cmcmanis＠freegate.com

Ok, I have to draw a line on this one Sam ... At 05:36 PM 10/27/98 -0800, Sam wrote: >Well, if the guy who bought the Atari 1200XL thinks he got fair market >value, I'm happy for him. But I don't want to have to pay some schlub >$600 for an Atari 1200XL the next time I see one go up for sale (luckily I >won't have to, I paid less than $5 for mine at a thrift store, and if I >want another I'll probably find it for around the same price). What that >guy thinks is a "fair price" does NOT equate to "fair market". There is a >huge distinction. There IS a huge distinction, there is no such thing as a "fair price." Its a myth, it don't exist, deal with it. If this "schlub" as you so affectionately refer to them knew about your thrift store (and I can guarantee you he will) then you won't find Atari's in thrift stores and you won't find them at swap meets and the _only_ way to get one will be to pay more than what some other "schlub" is willing to pay. And if the price is too rich for you then you won't own one. What's a "fair" price for a Picasso? a Rembrandt? That is exactly what a market IS and it is actually _incredibly_ fair. Without external intervention it will settle on a price that people are willing to pay. To use the 1200XL example.. Word will get around that a 1200XL goes for 600 on Ebay, so enterprising folks who have been in thrift stores will start scrounging around for them, and then they will all put them up on eBay and the large number of them will cause the price to come down, probably way down but it may not get down to a level you are comfortable paying. For heaven's sake, you think there is a "fair" price for a house in Silicon Valley? Of course not, the MARKET supports a median house price that is well above what any ordinary mortal could pay for, but only because there are enough people willing to pay that price. When people said, "This is f__ ridicululous!" in 1991 guess what, houses stayed on the market until the price came down. When I bought my house I offered nearly 100K UNDER the asking price, got the house and it STILL lost 15K in value over the next couple of years! Now its going back up, great, but that will change when the guys from eBay who got rich on the IPO have all bought there houses. Economics, not just an idea it's a discipline that actually predicts these things pretty accurately... --Chuck

27 years, 9 months

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Noise levels have become deaf

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

Hmm... Looks like Sweet Sam decided that if he couldn't shout me down, he'd just slam the door in my face. What a guy! --- Return-Path: <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:21:11 PST Reply-To: listproc(a)u.washington.edu Sender: listproc(a)u.washington.edu From: University of Washington ListProcessor <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> To: bill_r(a)inetnebr.com Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN X-UIDL: ee07c31fcdb321395d34af85335a15b0 Dear user, your request UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP has been successfully processed. You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP (classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). Thank you for being with us. > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!)

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model II stuff!

by MPritchard＠EnsembleStudios.com

Very much my fault there. Sorry. I'm in Dallas, Tx, USA. Specifically, the machine is in my "garage of doom" in North Garland. -Matt Pritchard Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com [SMTP:Philip.Belben@pgen.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 1:38 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: TRS-80 Model II stuff! > > > > > > > Speaking of which, I have a complete Model II in storage; anyone > > interested? > Please remember when posting to the list to say where things are! > > If it's in the UK, Yes please I am definitely interested. > > If it's elsewhere in Europe, Yes, I am possibly interested. > > If it's not in Europe, Yes, I'd love one, but I can't afford the shipping. > > Philip. > > > >

27 years, 9 months

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Noise levels have become deaf

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

> >On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: >> That's OK, Bill. There's no need for me to send any particular response >> to this public display of social retardation, other than to acknowledge > ****** >> that you are seriously off-topic and really need to shut up. > >Better put the filter on your Email Bill !!! > >> But if it'll make you feel better, then I'll be the better man and let you >> have the last word publicly. > ******** > >Oops I better put the Sam Slammer back in too! > >> If it'll get you to finally calm down then it'll be well worth it. Go >> ahead and reply to this message with another off-topic tantrum and I >> shall not spew a word about it. > >I a speachless - and apprehensive..... > >> You're welcome. >> >> On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Bill Richman wrote: >> > No, it was intentionally posted to the list. I'm tired of Sam shutting >> > down reasonable discussions by declaring them "off-topic" while in the >> > same breath getting the last word, while simultaneously insulting people >> > for no good reason. I've got a half dozen e-mails filled with Sam's >> > bile and hate from the last time I dared defend someone's right to an >> > opinion other than his. I just thought it might be educational for >> > people to see the festering hatred and insecurity that's exposed when >> > you scratch Sam's surface. That is, of course, unless he decides to be >> > a pussy and flame me in e-mail again. (Fair warning, Sam - anything you >> > e-mail me is going on this list for everyone to see and judge for >> > themselves.) > >Well - that last time Sam 'went overboard' I couldn't shut HIM up until >I threatened to go to his VCF and hand out printed copies of his emails >to the attendees 8-) > >Maybe we should get together and do a 'book' on him! > >I will say that he gets really sweet right before a VCF and then goes >power hungry with the list afterwards... but then everything settles >down to a nice dull roar. Until about March when he knows he has to >start being nice again - he will have one more flare up before Mr. Nice >Guy has to come out and play again. I have gotten used to it. Try to >hang in there Bill. > >BC > > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!)

27 years, 9 months

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Replying to people (was TRS-80 model II)

by MPritchard＠EnsembleStudios.com

Just a note to people: when you e-mail someone directly; don't use an email-address that has something like "your name <yournameDIE.YOU(a)SPAMMERmydomain.com>" in it. Using Microsoft Outlook (which I do), it just shows <your name> with the SMTP portion hidden. After the mail bounces, I'm less inclined to type the whole message again and edit your user name. So that reply to you offering to sell you the complete Altair for $50.... well, you didn't get it. I mean, it's a direct e-mail, not the mailing list. If you think I am going to spam you... come on. Ok, now that, I've jumped all over Arfon, I have to say it's nothing personal and I apologize in advance. it's just not the first time that it's happened. it's just that I don't even see anything until the mail bounces. -Matt Pritchard

27 years, 9 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by roblwill＠usaor.net

> > "Why can't I just shut up?" Fuck you, Sammy boy. With a rusty iron > pipe. _Anybody_ else can voice an opinion here, but for some reason > _you_ decided you don't _like_ me (what is it - did I neglect to kiss > your ass when I came in?), so as soon as I say a _word_, you find a > reason to end the discussion because it's "off-topic" (nevermind the 5 > or 6 times you contributed to most of the threads in question before I > said anything), or you accuse me of "fanning the flames" when done > nothing but voice an opinion like everyone else has been. What total > and utter bullshit. You really need some Prozac, or a shrink to help > you work through those left-over potty-training issues from childhood. > (Or did you forget all the obscene, abusive, highly personal e-mails you > sent me the last time I forgot to agree with your opinion? I've got a > special folder that messages from you are filtered into - it's called > "Asshole". I had thought that you were done with the childish name > calling and personal attacks, but I guess not.) What would your public > think - the man who organized SamFest '98 (errr... excuse me... VCF) - > calling people assholes and telling them to shut up - all because they > voice an opinion about a list they have an interest in? Not very > attractive behavior, Sambo. Not very attractive at all. > Look, I don't know if this was supposed to be a private mail, or not, but WHATEVER it is, it's DEFINATELY OFF-TOPIC! I really think I'd have to side with Sam on this one. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************

27 years, 9 months

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KEITH, WE HARDLY KNEW YOU was: Noise levels (yak yak)

by Marty＠itgonline.com

Dear Mr. Whitehead, You could have used some discretion like most of us on this list and just read the strings you found worthwhile. Instead you insult virtually everyone on the list and have created yet another flame war which has no end in sight. Please be advised to re-read the Classiccmp FAQ which describes how to unsubscribe and 'don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.' Sincerely, Marty Mintzell ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/26/98 3:21 PM Well this list used to be good, now it has degenerated into 80%+ noise. I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers What does a modern college education have to do with old computers I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. Go back and re-read what this list was supposed to be about. 99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. k.j.whitehead(a)massey.ac.nz Keith Whitehead Electronics Technician Electronics Services Institute of Fundamental Sciences Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand 5301 ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct26.152119.1767.72634; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:21:19 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id MAA12116; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:18:29 -0800 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA50832 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:17:27 -0800 Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with SMTP id MAA099 85 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:17:24 -0800 Received: from [130.123.73.41] (actually px-mac26) by cc-server9.massey.ac.nz with SMTP(PP); Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:15:54 +1300 Message-Id: <l03010d00b25a94702926(a)[130.123.73.41]> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:14:32 +1200 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Keith Whitehead <K.J.Whitehead(a)massey.ac.nz> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

27 years, 9 months

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ebay

by franke＠sbs.de

>>Just a NO. Maybe I'm stupid and old fashionated, >>but sniping is just not possible. > Yes it is. If there's something I really want, I generally have two > browser windows open -- one to do frequent reloads on, and one with my info > already entered and ready to submit. :)))) You should thank GOd (or alt least your ISP) for your line, every day twice. Especialy when it's 2 pm to 4 am over here, it's impossible to do things like that. And for your extension by x minutes - thats just the same problem - only the one with enuff time to stay online and fast lines will be able to participate. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< So, while a 256 or 512 bit data bus is usefull (and < already in use in main frames - only called data path), < even a 128 Bit address bus is just nonsense. There is some truth to this. DEC went to 64bits as they knew 32bits were not enough for some applications. They were also trying to design for the next 20years to repeat the life of the VAX (32bits). Now, having a large address space isn't completely about filling it. It's about having addressing modes and arithmetic adaquate to deal with large data objects. In the 32bit model 4gb is the limit without thrashing. Those limits was exceeded by disk farms with tens of Gigabytes of databases and solving large mathmatical models. The current example would be doing windows graphics programming (1280x1024x16m) using only 16bit pointers, you do a lot of thrashing to get the the next 64k chunk and there will be a lot of them! That was the problem that spawned the VAX! Brief history lesson: The PDP11 was reachhing the point where a fully filled machine (4mb of ram) could not process in one lump the large problems like weather models or MRI data. It was NOT a speed issue it was 16 bits made for too small a data pointer. Also doing 32/64bit math required more steps (or FP hardware) as the registers were all 16bit. So to add two 24bit numbers on a PDP-11 required multiple steps and that was a speed impact. Going to 32bit registers made that a single instruction and paid back as speed without processors running at faster clocks. If it were speed the 11/74 would have been an ongoing event rather than the 4-6 than did get made. The birth of the VAX (and DGs Eclipse) grew >from this need. So computer designers bumped the size of things to assure they could comfortably address the likely largest object they can resasonably expect to see for some time to come. Not so they could have 2^64bytes of ram but because they already have 2^40bytes of disk farm! All this was no surprize to computer designers. They foresaw it in the 60s knowing that larger memories and disks were needed to solve the problems that were growing. The datapath issue is strictly about speed as the VAX could have an 8bit data bus (in a trade for speed) like the 68008. While it has a big effect on speed it has no interaction with addressability. It's addressing the system problem of multiple devices competing for the common resource (MEMORY). By making the datapath wide you can grab several bytes at the same time and while the cpu is dealing with that the ram is available to run a IO cycle to a disk system or other IO. How big wide enough is, that is determined by how much silicon you have. Allison

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model II stuff!

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> >unclear as to how to translate 77-track x 34 (256byte) sector media > >to 80-track x 18 (512byte) sector media. I know it will fit fine -- > >whether it can be used directly if an adapter is made to connect the > >new drives to the old hardware I don't know > > Again, this is well discussed in Q16 ("Can I use the newer floppy > drives on my old machine?") of the CP/M FAQ. See > > http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/CPM-faq/faq.html > And I'm sorry but this was a CPM FAQ not an > 8' fd faq. Much less a well-discussed one. I disagree. In between Q14 and Q16 of the CP/M FAQ, and the reference to Sydex's tools, everything you need to know to make images from physical floppies and physical floppies from images on a PC-clone is in the FAQ. Q16 will even tell you how to use a 5.25" or 3.5" floppy on your Model II. > FAQs were created to answer > repetitious questions not to eliminate the need for particular group > discussion of the theme. But it *is* a FAQ in many other forums, and has been repeatedly discussed on CLASSICCMP in the past, as well. > Reminds me of the old guilds where smithy methods > should not be discussed among the profane. I don't remember you posting > objections to any other thread. Why this ? I'm not objecting to the thread; I'm simply pointing the group towards an already extremely comprehensive source of information, because this is a better practice than repeating stuff that most folks here have already seen many times before. Tim.

27 years, 9 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> I therefore see address buses growing at 16 bits every 30 years. That's >>> just over a bit every 2 years - slower than I expected but not much. >>> Someone (I forget who) said that memory chips double in capacity every >>> 18 months. This would give 16 bits in 24 years. >> Interesting szenario, especialy when connected to the Mores Law >> (didn't he tell this regarding integration ?). > Thanks. That's the one I'm thinking of - the amount of memory you get on > the same area of silicon doubles every 18 months. Basicly I think its about integrations and transistor equivalents, but this is just linear to the size of memorys. In fact, to come back to the original question, Arfon just took doubling of address space and doubbling of data bus width for the same thing, but in fact they are two different functions - widening data bus is linear, while widening address bus is to the square (sorry, my mathematical english just stops here). This means doubble the data bus just doubbles the date transfer rate (the only thing the data bus is needed for) or w'=w+w. But doubbling the address bus is putting the address range (and thats what the address bus is for) to the square or r'=r*r. So, while a 256 or 512 bit data bus is usefull (and already in use in main frames - only called data path), even a 128 Bit address bus is just nonsense. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by K.J.Whitehead＠massey.ac.nz

Well this list used to be good, now it has degenerated into 80%+ noise. I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers What does a modern college education have to do with old computers I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. Go back and re-read what this list was supposed to be about. 99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. k.j.whitehead(a)massey.ac.nz Keith Whitehead Electronics Technician Electronics Services Institute of Fundamental Sciences Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand 5301

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 CoCo for sale

by siconic＠jasmine.psyber.com

Please contact the SELLER. I am only passing this along. Reply to: jonathow(a)mounet.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:32:38 -0400 From: Jonathan Owens <jonathow(a)mounet.com> Subject: Re: TRS-80 It is a TRS-80 Color Computer, model number 26-3004A. It is in good condition, everything still works the way its supposed to. It has jacks for cassette, serial I/O, and joystick. I think it has 1K of memory, I'd have to check to be sure. I have no additional parts for it. I received it as a gift from my uncle over a decade ago. I've not used it much, it is an interesting little tool. I learned quite a bit about BASIC programming from it! Anyway, I would be interested in selling it. I appreciate your interest. Thank you for your time. Sincerely Jonathan Owens --- Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web page update: 09/28/98]

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model II stuff!

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> Speaking of which, I have a complete Model II in storage; anyone > interested? Please remember when posting to the list to say where things are! If it's in the UK, Yes please I am definitely interested. If it's elsewhere in Europe, Yes, I am possibly interested. If it's not in Europe, Yes, I'd love one, but I can't afford the shipping. Philip.

27 years, 9 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

Coming from someone with a 24-line signature, ragging other people about appropriate mailing list behavior strikes me as just a bit hypocritical. Every time 1 or 2 people make noise about "noise" on the list, Sam jumps on his "This list needs a moderator and I'm the man for the job" soapbox and everybody grumbles about leaving until he settles down; I don't really see the point. Judging by the relatively small number of complaints, I'd have to guess that most of the users (myself included) don't have a problem with the way the list is operating. I typically read the mail from this list in batches, as I have time; I use Forte Agent, and have a rule set up to sort messages from "classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu" into a seperate folder, just like I do the other mailing lists I'm on. That way, I don't have to wade through list messages to find my personal e-mail. I guess I'm with Max - if you want an encyclopedia, get one. I prefer to deal with my on-line friends and neighbors as whole people, not chopped up according to arbitrary criteria and stuffed into neat little pigeonholes just to keep a few anal-retentive people happy... > >If you want to talk about classic computing items posted to eBay, fine. >Z-80? That is absolutely on-topic. But, if you want to engage in a >seemingly endless public debate on the merits of the modern educational >system...I'm sorry. That simply is _not_ appropriate. Either is >gunsmithing, lathe building, snipers, or Star Trek theory. > >When this list is functioning as it should, I find it to be an incredible >resource. I only hope it can continue to be that. Perhaps it is time to >elect a moderator... > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!)

27 years, 9 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

> You guys are really raining on my parade.... Sorry, but most is just physics. > I have looked at Z180's, Z380's and etc.... They are SLOW!!!!!! The > only availabe packaging for the Z380 is un-useable to me as a hobbist > (without a lot of headache.) Anything you need is a socket adaptor. > So, If some company would take the Z-bus (but with an (input/output) data > size set of bus control lines), Z-80 instruction set and match a DEC Alpha > performance (at a cheap price of-course), I would worship that company. > (Oh yes, I want a 64bit data bus and a 128bit address bus). Is this asking > for too much? Why can't we all just get along? Why not just take an Alpha if you want Alpha features ? And now tell me where you need 128 Bit address ? Just in case, even to fill a 64 Bit memory you need 4 GIG of mem thats just 4 grand ... and 128 Bit memory used ... oh unly 16,000,000,000,000 Dollar ... gee rich man > Since this is a dream: Just listen to Allison, she (now I know) already pointed it out: physics. > My thoughts are this: If I can find some REALLY SIMPLE mirco-controllers > that do just the basic microprocessor functions, Lets just assume you need only 4 cycles on your micro-controller to do the equivalent of an Z80 cycle (after all they are software controlled). this means a 400 MHz micro controller equals a 100 MHz Z80 with an sustaind rate of around 25 MIPS - thats just double to tripple the rate of an Z180 - not a big deal - and anything faster would require Memory with less than 10 nS access access time - and if you remember SDRAM design, there are some quirks to resolve - your simple Bus concept is dead. And speaking of timing - at 1GHz, a signal traveles less than 30 cm (or less than one foot if you like the ancient way). If you take just 500 MHz and lets say 1.4 ns of switching time, wireing at hobist level is impossible. just forget it - these speeds are only possible inside of chips - gee even chip designers have problem with the path inside the chip, and you want rant about using special socets ? > I can parallel them to make them read-in and intrepret Z-80 code. Paralell them - interleaved (pipelined) or even out of order execution ? Have you ever been involved ? O3 is the crudest thig one could imagine - you need 5 to 15 times the logic of the active components (ALU etc.) just to coordinate the concurent components. > I cannot see why massively populated microprocessors (like the PPC, Intel, > and DEC Alpha) can reach clock speeds of 600 Mcyc and a really simple (one > accumulator, bare instruction set) microcontroller can't exceed those speeds! Because they are ONE pice of silicon ? > If I got some of these micro-controllers and had two or three of them > reading in instructions ahead of execution (looking for branches) I could > do half of the job and speed up the through-put. What about taking an extreme simple CPU and try to think again on a simplified base - I would suggest the 1802 - one of the simpelest designs - less than 300 gate function as I remember. No complex math just addition no fancy OPs just minimal needs. And now try to think about O3 and parallel concepts at this simple base. > Then use several more u-controllers acting in parallel to actually do the > instruction execution. See above. > For math, a bunch of stinking fast memory locations acting as look-up tables. A one cycle ALU is still faster - and when using 64 or 128 bit math you need more ROM than available on earth. > Any ideas? Using hyperspace ? Gruss H. PS.: pleas notice, I got it on topic (1802) <g> -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 9 months

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Help -- pages from PDP11 Bus Handbook missing

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Hello, all: The "PDP11 Bus Handbook" is the next doc that I own that is next on the scanner bed (so to speak). I only have Xerox copies of the book, and the copy is missing pages 22 and 23. If someone has this book ( (c) 1979) and can either scan the missing pages or snail-mail copies of them to me, I'd appreciate it. As always, thanks. Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin!/CW7 - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of "classic" computers <========= reply separator ==========>

27 years, 9 months

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PCjr with no disk drive?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

IBM 21xx series were PS/1 and current aptiva models. the earliest 21xx series i know about is the 2121 386sx types that had the power supply in the monitor. 2121 models do have a similar form factor though. i'll check at work and post back if i find anything. might be worth getting as it certainly wasnt an announced consumer product. david In a message dated 10/28/98 8:24:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time, dastar(a)ncal.verio.com writes: > I also saw what looked to be a very small IBM computer. It had all the > connectors on the back, for video, keyboard, printer. It also had two > 3.5" bays side by side in the front. The front cover was missing so I > couldn't get any model number off it (not even on the label on the > bottom). The only thing I saw on the label was "Type 2100". I'm thinking > it might be a PS/1 or something. It was really small, measuring about 12" > wide by 3" high by 12" deep. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic. > com

27 years, 9 months

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PCjr with no disk drive?

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Has anyone ever seen (or heard of) an IBM PCjr with no internal disk drive, but instead a face plate covering the slot where the drive would go? I saw such a thing today and was curious if there were ever any PCjr's released without internal disk drives. Obviously this one was. The inside is rather bare as well. There is not the usual cards inside. I also saw what looked to be a very small IBM computer. It had all the connectors on the back, for video, keyboard, printer. It also had two 3.5" bays side by side in the front. The front cover was missing so I couldn't get any model number off it (not even on the label on the bottom). The only thing I saw on the label was "Type 2100". I'm thinking it might be a PS/1 or something. It was really small, measuring about 12" wide by 3" high by 12" deep. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98]

27 years, 9 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Agreed. ---------- > From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening > Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 11:09 PM > >

27 years, 9 months

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ebay

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 11:57 AM 10/26/98 -0700, you wrote: >4. Finally, to avoid heartache from being sniped, don't assume you have > a thing until you get the notification you won. Until you get that, > the thing isn't yours. I once bid on an item and saw the "auction has closed" screen. Then, ebay decided that because a problem came up shortly after the auction closed, they would reset all the auctions (even the ones not affected) to close one day later. Imagine my surprise when I checked MyEbay and saw the auction was open again! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 9 months

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Need Pinout: DEC H7861 Power Supply

by mcquiggi＠sfu.ca

Hi Group: I have an old 11/23 with an H7861 power supply. It's a Q bus box. The cabinet kit is missing. There is a ten wire ribbon cable from the power supply. I am looking for the pinout of this ribbon cable, so that I can make my own panel. The leads likely carry DC OK, Halt, Restart, and so on. Anybody have the info on this? Thanks in advance, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca

27 years, 9 months

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eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...)

by dcoward＠pressstart.com

Chuck McManis said speaking of EBAY: >It sounds like this is a "bad" thing. Is it? If so why? ----- START RANT ----------------- Yes, it a Baaad thing. I was very happy when my computers were "worthless" (to everyone else), thank you very much for asking. 1) Computers are appearing everywhere. I don't have to look so hard any more. As a result I don't yell "Yipee" as loud any more, especially when I realize what it's going to cost me. 2) A good portion of the discussions on this list are about what some machine is worth. A hobby that allows a person to gain complex knowledge of so many aspects of their machines and it history has been reducted to the level of baseball trading cards and "beanies". I would rather hear about how someone just got a machine running for the first time in 15 years. 3) I see a "Low Tech" craze coming. People will be mounting S-100 boards to hang on the wall. Just like the people that buy old magazines, cut them up to frame the old advertisements. By piecing out a computer they make alot of money, and someone has a piece of Americana to decorate their den, but it's taking technology out of context. This will come when the prices "crash". Imagine you need a S-100 disk controller. You find one,it costs a fortune and you need to chip it out of a block of Lucite, because someone made it into a paper weight. 4) I don't care for the way it makes people react. The following is from the CP/M list last weekend: >About a week or so I let loose that I had a few IMSAI chassis available. >This resulted in a deluge of mailings. I was rather amazed at this - that >anyone would want them at all. >I offered them for free (postage) and still am doing so. A couple of takers >have been identified. >What I cannot abide is a few that got real abusive. I was offering something >for nothing, yet a few insisted on demanding they get the equipment. I >received some nasty insinuations and threats. This I will not tolerate and >each party has been told so personally. >I wish to reiterate here that I am appalled at the behavior of these few. It >was fortunate that the majority had better manners. I nearly tossed the >whole batch in the garbage. >Excuse the venting - Sorry about the whole mess >Rich Raspenti 5) "Beanies" are made to be collectible. They don't have a story to tell. They don't have a functionality that is greater than the sum of their parts. You don't play with them. You just display them. And that is the biggest problem. When a treasured possession becames too valuable to use for fear of damaging it, that defeats MY purpose for collecting computers. - the not so oldtimer ----- END RANT ------------------------- > It would seem that >eBay is making a market for older computers that before didn't exist. Now >is it that the 'old timers' who were used to picking up C64's at a garage >sale for $1 will now have to pay $25 are grumbling? Doesn't this >potentially increase the value of your own collection many fold? Isn't that >a good thing? > Traditionally there is a rush of "collectible fever" (if >you've ever dealt with collectibles, and my Dad has for many more years >than I) where lots of people rush in an buy anything that may be >collectible hoping to get in at the bottom of the next "beanie" craze, then >there is a rush of junk dealers who prey on those bozos and come in and >sell them a bunch of "L@@K! R@RE!" Commodore 64's or 486SL machines for >over market prices, and then there is a general "crash" of the market as >the bozo's leave and prices go back to more rational levels (but usually >higher than they were before the "collectible" craze hit) and then, if they >are truely collectable (and there are many properties of things that make >them so) then the price begins to reflect actual rarity, condition, and >that imponderable "desirability." ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA =========================================

27 years, 9 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

-----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney <aaron(a)wfi-inc.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, 28 October 1998 12:53 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > >> I'm really gonna have to find a pinout for the AUI connectors. And how to >> connect them. > >Pin Function >---------------- <snip> That ought to do it, thanks very much! Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model II stuff!

by MPritchard＠EnsembleStudios.com

Speaking of which, I have a complete Model II in storage; anyone interested? > -----Original Message----- > From: Arfon Gryffydd [SMTP:ArfonRG@DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net] > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 9:04 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: TRS-80 Model II stuff! > > Okay, > For anyone interested (Larry).... I am going home (to Virginia) for > thanksgiving and I will pull out one of my model IIs and get all of the > still useable software and manuals. I will make copies available to > anyone who wants if someone can tell me how to copy the 8" discs to a file > on a PC (either using Linux or Dos). > > I can serial port the machines togethet but, I have no idea how to > read > off all the sectors of the 8 inches. > > Arfon > > "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build > bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce > bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook

27 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model II stuff!

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> With a few of my Linux >tools, I may even be able to make images on modern media, though I'm >unclear as to how to translate 77-track x 34 (256byte) sector media >to 80-track x 18 (512byte) sector media. I know it will fit fine -- >whether it can be used directly if an adapter is made to connect the >new drives to the old hardware I don't know Again, this is well discussed in Q16 ("Can I use the newer floppy drives on my old machine?") of the CP/M FAQ. See http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/CPM-faq/faq.html >-- and track 0 was single >density IIRC, the boot ROM might be sticky. And there are several tools - most notably Teledisk - which can handle split-density floppies. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 9 months

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Road trip/vintage sources

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> What kind of places? Places that dark and dirty. Places with >junk arranged in piles. Places with vacuum tube equipment. >(I would love to find an example of a vacuum tube analog computer) Be sure to hit C&H Surplus on Colorado Blvd in Pasadena, All Electronics in Van Nuys, and APEX in San Fernando if you head through Southern California. >Places you won't want your kids to play in. There are parts of APEX that you need a hard-hat to enter :-). Tim.

27 years, 9 months

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DOS disks?

by roblwill＠usaor.net

I can GIVE you a copy of 3.2 for free. Just send me an email (personal), -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Gene Ehrich <gene(a)ehrich.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: DOS disks? > Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 4:01 PM > > At 01:56 PM 10/27/98 -0500, you wrote: > > Any PC (IBM) or MS-DOS as far as I know, although I'd try MS-DOS 3.2 > > or 3.3.... > > If you cant find it for free any place. > > I have 3.3 for sale on my web site at http://www.voicenet.com/~generic > > Gene > > Gene Ehrich

27 years, 9 months

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Commodore 128D

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

The voltages of the wires going from PSU to the motherboard. > >::Well, it's been about two months, and I still haven't started on the >::C128D that Hans gave me (sorry, Hans!). Could someone please post >::the PSU pinouts for it (this is the one with an internal PSU)? > >PSU pinouts? How do you mean, exactly? My DCR has an integrated power supply >(later model 128D, metallic case, single board; the D series have a two >board setup, one for the 1571 and the other for the system, plastic case). > >-- >-------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- >Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database Programmer >Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 >ckaiser(a)ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 >-- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm still right. ------- > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 9 months

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Fw: Reparir of my 8514/A monitor

by dwollmann＠ibmhelp.com

Anyone have any pulled MA3172s they can help this gent with or know of a source for them? All I have are dead 8514s and I'm not good with a soldering iron--I don't think this fella would want to buy/ship the whole monitor just for the chip and I would destroy it if I tried to pull it. >Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:46:46 +0200 >From: Ognjen Seslija <seki(a)EUnet.yu> >Organization: TEKON computers >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) >To: dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com >Subject: Reparir of my 8514/A monitor > >Dear Sirs, >About ten years ago, i've bought an IBM PS/2 model 80 with IBM 8514/A >monitor. >My monitor is not operational any longer due to the malfunction of one >hybrid >chip MA3172. >Can one bye this chip somewhere in NY city? >If so, please email me about an adress of your shop in NY, so I can tell >my friend who lives there where to buy it. > >Thank You very much. > >Ognjen Seslija >TEKON computers, Belgrade, Yugoslavia > -- David Wollmann | dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. -- Your Personal Computers may be not be Year 2000 compliant! -- For information on how Year 2000 may affect your PCs and prototype IBM Year 2000 diagnostics and fixes: http://www.ibm.com/pc/year2000/

27 years, 9 months

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DOS disks?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

i'd use mess-dos 5 myself. help files, and a workable editor makes it worth it but still small enough to run from floppy. In a message dated 98-10-27 13:58:09 EST, you write: << Weeeeeeeell, I landed a Data General One laptop. Normally I eschew MS-DOS based machines, simply because I'm a racist pig etc., but this one has an interesting notebook mode and a built-in terminal program at 1200bps. Except that the screen is harder to read than James Joyce, it seems like a winner and it works great. Question. Anyone know what version of DOS this uses? Does someone have any boot disks out there, or at least have the system files available for download? The drives are 3.5" DD, right? Thanks much, >>

27 years, 9 months

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