- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by bill＠chipware.com

Well, I would like to get an IMSAI and I'm thinking about making a bid on Tony's. Problem: What is a reasonable offer on an IMSAI, collector to collector? If we're talking ebay values, forget it. There will also be the additional expense of shipping from Mass. to Maryland. Any opinions welcome. Bill Sudbrink

27 years, 8 months

2
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IMSAI value

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Good condition, with the IMSAI 8080 CPU card, $500. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink [mailto:bill@chipware.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 10:31 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: IMSAI value Well, I would like to get an IMSAI and I'm thinking about making a bid on Tony's. Problem: What is a reasonable offer on an IMSAI, collector to collector? If we're talking ebay values, forget it. There will also be the additional expense of shipping from Mass. to Maryland. Any opinions welcome. Bill Sudbrink

27 years, 8 months

1
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Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd)

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Is this the guy I bought the SWTPC 6800 from at the VCF? He said he had an Apple I he was going to auction, and he was talking prices like this. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Bjorn T. Eng [mailto:bjorn@ktb.net] Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 4:28 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd) Hi! Anybody else see this one? I wonder what kind of documentation he has to "support" that "The current value of an Apple I computer is $40,000+" Is he referring to the one that was sold for a charity? Bjorn Eng ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 2 Nov 1998 14:05:39 GMT From: David Selinger <dave314x(a)sd.cts.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale Keywords: Apple 1 Apple I Wozniak Steve Jobs Computer Subject: Apple 1 Computer For Sale - Historic Rare Museum Piece Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Organization: CTS Network Services (CTSNET), San Diego, CA Summary: For Sale (FS) RARE Apple I (Apple 1) 1976 Computer System Keywords: Apple I Apple 1 For Sale Antique Computer vintage computer Wozniak Steve Jobs I am offering for sale to the highest bidder an original 1976 Apple I (Apple 1) Computer System - museum quality (one is in the Smithsonian in Washington, D.C. - see their web page.) It includes: Main processor board with original chips. User Operations manual with schematic BASIC programming User's manual which came with Apple I Tape interface daughter board BASIC cassette tape Original one-sheet advertisement What it doesn't include (because Apple Computer Co. did not sell this equipment with the computer -- the user supplied it himself): keyboard, and TV. This computer is for display purposes only -- not for actual use as a computer. Though I used it as a working computer in the past, the ravages of time has likely make it inoperative. Important Additional Information: Only 200 were ever made (Steve Wozniak interview, Byte Magazine, December 1984, page A69). Of those 200, many have likely been lost or destroyed, thereby making the surviving computers worth much more because of their increased scarcity. Minimum price for starting the bidding is $25,000.00. The current value of an Apple I computer is $40,000+. Documentation to support this fact will be provided upon request. A color photo to interested parties will also be provided upon request. I am also offering a 10% finder's fee to any person who finds a legitimate buyer with whom I actually consumate the sale. For example, finding a buyer who agrees to buy the computer for $40,000.00 will mean a $4,000.00 finders fee to the person who finds the buyer. This offer of a finder's fee however is valid for only two (2) months and expires on midnight Dec. 31, 1998. Send email bids, or referrals to potential buyers to this email address: dave314x(a)cts.com I reserve the right to reject or accept any and all bids. Dave.

27 years, 8 months

2
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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< > board gold fingers so it didn't make proper contact when the board wa < > reinstalled. < < Eh? I can understand why that might introduce a 'deliberate fault' which < you'd have to find, but I can't think of a diagnostic technique where < isolating odd pins of the 11/45 CPU modules would be that useful. It wasn't a repair procedure... it was a call it broken and try to find/fix it class exercise. Sometimes when a bad board was a available they would be used. Allison

27 years, 8 months

4
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Help Needed With Sinclair 1000

by franke＠sbs.de

>> I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Solid? Translucent? Seems to me from >> the few Timex models I've seen in action, the video is not so hot. Can be >> tempermental depending what TV it is hooked to. Bad sync (not rock >> stable), noisy and rather unsharp. Cheap design and manufacture all >> around. At least it translated to a cheap price. >> > Well, there's a gray background, with black lettering. The bar(s) are > solid black, and are about 2" wide, and scroll from the top to the bottom. > It does this on every TV I connect it to. The Background should be white - I guess you just have to change brightness and the Bar will also change translucent - almost invisible. The bar is common to all ZX81 and Timex and an is artefact of the generation routine. Maybe the output voltage of the video circuit don't reach a sufficient height. As far as I remember there is an adjustable resistor for that, so you don't have to change all TV sets. >> Bingo. Save your own programs or use commercial ones. There are a few >> programs of the "home accounting" ilk released by Timex Sinclair as >> cassettes. > Hmm.. Cheap design shows through here, too. There's not even a connector to > hook up the "motor remote" on the cassette. You have to turn it on and off > yourself (or have a VSR tape deck). All in all, even though bigger, the > CoCo is about 2k times better (bigger IS better...). Hey, what you want - the ZX81 was just 300 Mark at introduction ! Every other computer just trippled this price (or 10 times, like an Apple //e). And speaking of the Apple: no motor control ! And for the keyboard: there have been plenty of kits, and it should be possible just to assemble some switches as a keyboard. Try a web search. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

1
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Amiga drawbacks (was Ancient machines turning on)

by kh240463＠cr10m.staffs.ac.uk

UKers should check out the 50th issue of PC Pro. It has a feature on old computers. I had a quick look and saw mentions of the Osbourne 1 and some other systems. Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > The apps I have for both MS-DOS and the Amiga tend to be fairly robust and >less crash prone than for systems that have memory protection, I suppose >becuase with memory protection it's easier to write sloppy code that won't >bring down the system [2] so not as much effort is taken in writing solid >code. There is an application currently in development for the "Classic Amiga" line at the moment that promises to bring memory protection to the OS. This is quite an amazing feat when you consider that it is a 3rd party addon and has been thought impossible for years. I just hope it is included in AmigaOS 3.5. John Foust muttered: >I think this is crucial for those who wish to understand why the Amiga >didn't live forever: although it was 32-bit, its architecture had a deep >reliance on wide-open shared memory, preventing it from reaching the >next level of robust behavior. Tricks like "Enforcer" certainly helped >developers write safer code once the 68020 came along, but it was too >little, too late. Indeed. Particularly the lack of Unified Memory Access, restricting the user to a maximum of 2Mb Chip RAM (although UAE somehow allows up to 8Mb chip RAM). It can be improved on by adding a graphics card which will take the strain of the display off the custom chips. Once you begin to add PPC processors the task switching between the two processors, 68k and PPC really begins to reduce performance. D. Peschel spoke unto the masses: >I knew there was a reliance on shared memory, but I didn't know it was that >deep. Are you talking just about the custom hardware? (When the Amiga was >new, Amiga clearly had to work its butt off it get the chips to perform so >well -- making them squeeze through an MMU while doing DMA was obviously not >practical. Do you know if they even had plans to add memory management?) The original Amiga Corp considered using MMU but ( I think RJ Mical stated in an interview) that it would have made multitasking in his words, "a lot hairier." It would have slowed down the Amiga considerably when it was first released. With current technology it is possible to use the MMU to implement third party VMM, as well as Kickstart mappers. Some games and applications also use it. Quake being one of the most notable. >I'm tempted to say that after its initial success, Amiga rested on its lau- >rels and didn't try to improve the hardware for a long time (and they only >sort-of tried to improve the software). I don't know if it's *true*, but >it's *tempting*. Then they got around to the AGA graphics hardware which >is much better, except they were never able to catch all the bugs! Commodore rested on its laurels and the management made some classic mistakes. Cancelling AAA and when it was almost finished and releasing the A4000 being noteable (the A3200 were much better and included DSP as standard). The AGA chipset still ran at 7.14MHz like its predecessors. >Now they want to combine the old architecture with fancy new CPU's and hope- >fully memory management -- good luck but it sounds like a lot of work. >Do you know if they're trying for software compatibility? The latest release of AmigaOS, version 3.5 is due to ship early 1998 and has over twenty developers working on it. This should make a lot of the third party addons standard as part of the OS. Most Amigas nowadays are expanded so much that much of the design is unused. Even on my relatively underpowered A1200, the 68020 is ignored in favour of the 68040 that is present on my accelerator card. The OS upgrade is also going to be quite revolutionary by Amiga standards, requiring a minimum of a 020 processor with 4Mb. Considering that AmigaOS 3.1 could be run on an A500 this is quite a development. Amiga Inc claim that the OS upgrade will be 100% compatible with AmigaOS 3.1 although I have my doubts. They have also stated that AmigaOS 5 that will be released at the end of 1999 will be compatible with AmigaOS 3.5. Whether this actually comes to pass is another matter. >There is another lesson here, I think. It's one reason why adaptation has >been or will be so hard -- ANY decision you make about a system, good or bad, >especially bad, will affect the system for longer than you think. Only recently has Apple finally rid themselves of most of the 68k code in their OS. Until MacOS 8 much of the OS was run under emulation. Regards, Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://welcome.to/aig

27 years, 8 months

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Help Needed With Sinclair 1000

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Guess what? You don't. The Sinclairs *only* accepted keywords with the >> key combinations! The appropriate keywords should be printed on the >> keyboard. Not until the Spectrum +3 were you finally able to enter >> keywords in longhand. I found this a pretty good way to help beginners in programming - also it was _very_ fast - In fact I programmed an 'editor' Apple II wich used exactly the same way than on the ZX. > O.K. How do I enter programs, then, such as > 10 CLS > 20 PRINT "HELLO"; > 30 GOTO 20 > if I can't enter things such as the "hello"? After entering a keyword that takes parameters, like Print or Go To the Keyword Cursor [K] changes for the Character Cursor [C] and you just enter what ever you want. It will stay this until New Line is pressed. And with some trick you could even use keywords within printed strings so save RAM "LET HERCULES GO TO HELL" is just a 14 Byte string instead of 22 (Send GATES instead of HERCULES will save another 3 Bytes). Just try the folowing program: 10 for i = 1 to 255 20 print chr$(i); 30 next i This worked only because the CPU was interpreting (!) the 'video' memory and took the representation of a byte from the character 'generator' for toggeling the brightnes. If encountering a Basic Token inside the screen buffer the keyword was generated. The Video buffer itself was kind of trickey, since it is only a dynamic buffer - a strem to be interpreted for display - for every line only as much chars as needed where stored with an newline as termination, directly followed by the next line - so an empty screen just consits of 16 newlines. AFAIR Basic Memory was growing from the bottom and screen memory from the top, with variable storage inbetween. this could lees so an out of memory abortion if to much was printed onscreen. The CPU based video display is also the reason for the SLOW and FAST modi - in FAST the CPU uses all HighRes graphics are also possible via assembler subroutiens - just stop the ROM routine and generate your own signal - up to 300x578 interlaced could be possible - just without a structured display memory (witch needs an expansion) the generatable resolution will be more like 200x578. >> 1K computer, video entirely via TTL logic, Z80A at 3.5MHz. RAM expansion >> available; 80x50 (I think) character graphics in B&W. Identical to the >> British Sinclair ZX80 and ZX81, and scads of info are there for the >> taking on the Web. Possible to have 2K (just unsolder the 2114s and put in a 6116), Standard RAM expansion of 16K, but third party modules of 64 and more K, Additional I/O modules, even floppies have been made. The ZX80 is not 100% compatible. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

1
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CRT decay

by Marty＠itgonline.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: CRT decay Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 11/3/98 7:18 AM > < Don't CRT filaments degrade with use? I've seen this on other > < workstation monitors from Sun and HP, typically ones that were used as > It the common characteristic of all valves (tubes) with heated cathodes > that over time emission will decay and gain(brightness) goes away with > it. > < big-ticket item, the local TV repairman had cylindrical devices called > < "boosters" that could be inserted in the circuit between the plug on > < the back of the CRT and the set's CRT socket to extend the life of a > It got back some emission for a while but the overvoltage generally > killed the tube. > < dim picture tube. I don't really know what it did, but I suppose it > < was something like a step-up transformer for the CRT filament voltage. > That was it's exact function. >>There is also a way of 'reanimate' darkened tubes. Since >>the most usual cause is a deformation in the emiting layer >>of >>the cathode, the idea is to 'rebuild' the emiting layer. >>This involves over heating with up to double power (Watt). >>The parameters to be used have to fit the tube. This method >>is also only real usefull for b&w tubes. Depending on the >>kind of tube and usage this will lead to some additional >>500 to 1500 hours of usage. The process can be repeated, >>but not infinite. Since there is no new coating made - just >>a bit mixed up of the existing. The basic why is just that >>thru normal operation the electron emiting will always be >>from >>the same spot(s) and the coating will degenerate over the >>usage. This very same process goes back to the 1920's when thoriated cathodes were 'rejuvenated' by heating the cathode above its normal operating voltage for several minutes to boil up the thorium mixture of the cathode. This wasn't always successful but I have several friends who can attest to getting better performance from old UX-99 triodes of the early 1920's by this process. Marty DISCLAIMER: I am not a master of physics or chemistry nor do I know the exact english terms - I just using the process. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists5.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Nov03.071846.1767.74913; Tue, 03 Nov 1998 07:18:47 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id EAA25921; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 04:15:52 -0800 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id EAA24852 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 04:15:49 -0800 Received: from ns.sbs.de (ns.sbs.de [194.112.84.17]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id EAA02 725 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 04:15:45 -0800 Received: from mail.fth.sbs.de (mail.fth.sbs.de [192.129.41.35]) by ns.sbs.de (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA17692 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:20:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from marina.fth.sbs.de (marina.fth.sbs.de [192.129.41.2]) by mail.fth.sbs.de (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA00721 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:05:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from M23769PP (m23769pp.mch.sbs.de [139.25.241.35]) by marina.fth.sbs.de (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA25543 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:12:47 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199811031212.NAA25543(a)marina.fth.sbs.de> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:34:00 +1 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: "Hans Franke" <franke(a)sbs.de> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: CRT decay X-Envelope-Sender-Is: franke(a)sbs.de (at relayer mail.fth.sbs.de) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

27 years, 8 months

1
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CRT decay

by franke＠sbs.de

> < Don't CRT filaments degrade with use? I've seen this on other > < workstation monitors from Sun and HP, typically ones that were used as > It the common characteristic of all valves (tubes) with heated cathodes > that over time emission will decay and gain(brightness) goes away with > it. > < big-ticket item, the local TV repairman had cylindrical devices called > < "boosters" that could be inserted in the circuit between the plug on > < the back of the CRT and the set's CRT socket to extend the life of a > It got back some emission for a while but the overvoltage generally > killed the tube. > < dim picture tube. I don't really know what it did, but I suppose it > < was something like a step-up transformer for the CRT filament voltage. > That was it's exact function. There is also a way of 'reanimate' darkened tubes. Since the most usual cause is a deformation in the emiting layer of the cathode, the idea is to 'rebuild' the emiting layer. This involves over heating with up to double power (Watt). The parameters to be used have to fit the tube. This method is also only real usefull for b&w tubes. Depending on the kind of tube and usage this will lead to some additional 500 to 1500 hours of usage. The process can be repeated, but not infinite. Since there is no new coating made - just a bit mixed up of the existing. The basic why is just that thru normal operation the electron emiting will always be from the same spot(s) and the coating will degenerate over the usage. DISCLAIMER: I am not a master of physics or chemistry nor do I know the exact english terms - I just using the process. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

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About VCF 2.0 and system design

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< > Take the case off, and look for a number like 8x-xxx-x on one or more < > chips on the motherboard. The last x may be a letter (probably A) or < > or might not be there at all. Kaypro's part-numbering system was rath < > erratic, it seems. < > < > * 81-240 original (1983? maybe 1982) Kaypro 4 < > 81-232 1983 Kaypro 4 < > * 81-184 1984 Kaypro 4 (a.k.a. Kaypro 4'84) < > 81-292 1984 Kaypro 4 (newest ROM version for this < > # 81-296 Kaypro 4X (with super-high-density floppies) < > 81-146 character ROM < > 81-187 character ROM < > 81-235 character ROM What blows that all to dust is a machine like mine. The box is kaypro-1 (81-021) written all over the outside but, the board is apparently 4-84 and it's equipped with handyman, Advent turbo rom and a 2mb Ramdisk. I tell people it says kaypro-1 (number 1!) and they say two full height drives with slots horizontal but, mine has two half height two sided drives mounted vertical. Apparently it was a 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 Fochevromercysler! Allison PS: Fochevromercysler was one name given to a a mishmash of engine, transmission body, suspension parts that came from Ford, Chevy, Mercury, Chrysler. Seems a friend of mine had no loyalty to any one car.

27 years, 8 months

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About VCF 2.0 and system design

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< it did have the drives mounted vertical. As issued, it had an 81-294 < motherboard, and the 81-478 (U-ROM) EPROM. I believe that it had the < in-built modem and real-time clock as well. The Turbo-ROM was a major < improvement! that number doesnt match the the logic. there is no modem. Cannot tell on the Urom and the turborom replaced it. Yes, with turborom using teac FD55F or 3.5" drives I get 781k per drive. I retained the 360k drive for compatability. Allison

27 years, 8 months

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Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd)

by franke＠sbs.de

> Anybody else see this one? I wonder what kind of documentation he has to > "support" that "The current value of an Apple I computer is $40,000+" Is > he referring to the one that was sold for a charity? Trolling only needs phantasy (sometimes). >> This computer is for display purposes only -- not for actual >> use as a computer. Though I used it as a working computer in the >> past, the ravages of time has likely make it inoperative. HarHarHar. > Minimum price for starting the bidding is $25,000.00. The current value > of an Apple I computer is $40,000+. Documentation to support this fact will > be provided upon request. A color photo to interested parties will also be > provided upon request. Just request it - I gess he will pull out some magazines with yellow press stly articles about historic computers. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

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Help Needed With Sinclair 1000

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

somebody gave me this computer who built it and the power supply into a wooden case, complete with a composite tube. this person also hacked a keyboard on it, complete with some crude circuitry on a tinybreadboard that was mounted very haphazardly on a piece of plexiglass along with the keyboard! ah, homebuilt computing at its finest. however, it doesnt work at the moment so once i find schematics, i'll start isolating the problem. david In a message dated 11/2/98 10:32:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time, roblwill(a)usaor.net writes: > Part of it may have been the dippy little keyboard that it had, or the fact > that it only came with 1k or RAM (standard). If it had a larger keyboard, > instead of the tiny plastic membranes, then the idea *MAY* have caught on. > > > I wonder if ther'd be some way to either put a new keyboard on it (say, > from a laptop), or somehow make it into an expansion unit for something > like a TRS-80, almost like a CoCo cartridge.

27 years, 8 months

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Help Needed With Sinclair 1000

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Does anyone know what the "ear" and "mic" jacks are for (I know what < they're for, I just want to know WHY they're there). It's the only BASI < machine I've seen with a MIC plug. Or is it to connect a tape deck to? Hook up a tape recorder to it so you can save programs and recover them. Crude but it works. Allison

27 years, 8 months

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CRT decay

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Don't CRT filaments degrade with use? I've seen this on other < workstation monitors from Sun and HP, typically ones that were used as It the common characteristic of all valves (tubes) with heated cathodes that over time emission will decay and gain(brightness) goes away with it. < big-ticket item, the local TV repairman had cylindrical devices called < "boosters" that could be inserted in the circuit between the plug on < the back of the CRT and the set's CRT socket to extend the life of a It got back some emission for a while but the overvoltage generally killed the tube. < dim picture tube. I don't really know what it did, but I suppose it < was something like a step-up transformer for the CRT filament voltage. That was it's exact function. Poor emision is something I really haven't seen in years on CRTs. Thats due to improved materials. Burnt phosphor is more common. Allison

27 years, 8 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Actually, I'm wondering how those things work. Do they read the POST < code off the motherboard, or do they do their own diagnosis? I've < looked at the ads in various magazines, but never thought it had < much potential. POST is in reality a dumb I/O port with a two digit display. The BIOS power up self test writes codes to it depending on errors or success. It allows a bit more informative display if the video board or tube is croaked. Generally I can trouble shoot without one using known good boards as swaps. Allison

27 years, 8 months

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Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< the modern uSoft OSs - win95/98 and NT4. I still get GPFs but nowhere n < the frequency I got them with the dos-based windows. No microsoft OS ha Last reboot of this dos6.22/win3.1 system was three weeks ago when I shut it down to shuffle the drives and replace a dead fan. It's quite stable. Then again I tend to trash apps that don't behave! I've also tamed a few unruly ones with carefull edits or the creation of a proper PIF file. Considering the number of DOS apps I run under windows Setting things up right is a necessity. To me GPFs are applications that under VMS would likely cause an exception exit dump. GPFs are a poor error handling mech for programs trying to do what should or are illegal things. It's easy to blame a weak OS for crappy applications. Dos has few to no protections and ragging on it is unfair. < compared to the stability (weeks and months without rebooting) of Linux, < in turn doesn't approach the bulletproof reliability you expect from VMS The Slakware 3.0 Linux I have on a 386dx/33 that is a good machine but with only 8meg of ram Linux is not that stable. Forget getting xwindows to behave well in 8meg. < I freely admit I learned most of my computer science under Vax-VMS so I < strong bias towards it, but I've also run moderately large scale vaxclus I'm biased as well, I run 7 vaxen here, two of which are LAVC members. I also run RT-11, RSTS-11 and a lot of CP/M systems. < and at least the versions we used... 5.5a, if memory serves, were remark < reliable. To the point where we once had a cluster server loose its dis Solid! I run both 5.4-4 and 5.5 and uptimes are limited by power on times, though in the past I've seen months to years. < I'm not a programmer. I'm a sysadmin/netadmin type. Ease of programmin < secondary to me compared to reliability. A system that crashes frequent < the bane of my profession's existance, because it means instead of spend < time on the entire environment and routine maintenance you spend more ti < firefighting mode. That is why VMS, unix and their kin are used on the enterprize scale. Dos/win was used that way but it was never conceived as a multiuser OS nor as a networking server platform. Using it that way maybe a hackers dream but a sysadmin nightmare. < We were discussing why people don't get attached to PCs as much, and any < machine that bombs frequently or in general causes headaches seems to me < it's not going to be high on people's lists. A machine that is poorly understood and marketed by processor speed hype that shows zippy games. I still don't understand why a kid needs a 300MHz PII to run simcity other than hype. To me it's simpler, one 486dx or PII is the same as another, ther eis nothing to distinguish them. Even the PS2 series was at least different on the bus level. It's a matter of maturity of the system and all of the software. Allison

27 years, 8 months

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CRT decay (OT)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

While we're talking about CRTs, I want to ask if anyone has heard of any problems with Digital VGA monitors, about 4 years old. We installed a lab full of them, and when I turned them on, two lost the magic white smoke, and more have various other problems. >> Is this related to what I am about to ask? Could somebody do a short >> summary of why Fimi(?) greyscale megapixel NeXT monitors fade after > >Fimi monitors seem to be related to Philips, but just try getting a service >manual for one. > >> 20,000 or so hours of use and indicate whether there are any other >> monitors (perhaps some classic) that show similar problems? > >The most likely cause is the CRT cathode is losing emission (basically >it's not sending enough electrons to the screen). But it could also be a >low electode voltage on the CRT, a problem with the brightness control, etc. > >It's time to mention a trick that's saved me a lot of time over the >years, even though it's too late for you to use it. When I get a monitor, >whether new, or part of a classic computer, or whatever, the first thing >I do is pull the case and note down the CRT electrode voltages and any >other testpoints I think might be useful (PSU outputs, etc). If I have a >service manual/schematic, then I note them in there. If not, then it's >normally easy to find the CRT pinouts at least and I write down the >voltages in a suitable place, such as the user manual. Even a label stuck >inside the case. > >Then, if the picture starts to fade, I can check the voltages again to >see if there are any problems. > >OK, if it is the CRT emission (and I've had this happen on large mono >monitors), then you may be looking for a new CRT. There are CRT >reactivation devices (basically they run the heater at about 20% >overvoltage and apply a high voltage, about 200V, between the cathode and >1st grid), but modern CRTs don't normally respond too well. Sometimes >overrunning the CRT heater all the time (it's unlikely you'd burn it out) >will help. There are all sorts of tricks for that, including wrapping a >couple of turns of wire round the core of the flyback and connecting it >in series with the heater supply. If the heater is already supplied by >the flyback, then you need to try the new winding both ways round. The >way that brightens the heater and picture is the right one. > >Incidentally, a lot of micros, video terminals, etc use 12" mono CRTs. >There are basically only 2 types - thin neck, 7 pin, 11V heater and thick >neck, 8 pin, 6.3V heater. A good source of the former is old portable >TVs. If you can get a portable TV with a good tube, perhaps with flyback >or tuner problems, the CRT will probably go into a TRS-80 Model 3 or a >VT100, or.. with only a few mods, if any. > > >> >> >> -- Stephen Dauphin >> > > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 8 months

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386's available

by kyrrin＠jps.net

If anyone wants what sound like 386SX machines, here's your chance. Please contact the author directly if interested. Thanks! -=-=- <snip> -=-=- >Sender: mann(a)pa.dec.com >Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:49:01 -0800 >From: Tim Mann <mann(a)pa.dec.com> >Organization: DEC Systems Research Center >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; OSF1 V4.0 alpha) >To: kyrrin(a)jps.net >Do you know of anyone who wants old 386 systems (preferably in the SF >Bay area)? I have one that actually has a CDROM, soundcard, 500 MB hard >drive, and 10 MB of RAM, but the poor old 386 only runs at 20 MHz, so >the machine is painfully slow. > >-- >Tim Mann <mann(a)pa.dec.com>, Compaq Systems Research Center >http://www.research.digital.com/SRC/personal/Tim_Mann/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 8 months

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Help Needed With Sinclair 1000

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

That's kinda cool in a twisted Word 97 sort of way. Context sensitive BASIC...I'm wondering if this is where MS got their idea. You see, in Visual Basic 5, it shows the syntax for the function I'm typing, and also can complete it. Why is the Sinclair hated disliked if it had what seems to be a useful feature? >> O.K. How do I enter programs, then, such as >> >> 10 CLS >> 20 PRINT "HELLO"; >> 30 GOTO 20 >> >> if I can't enter things such as the "hello"? > >Once you hit the PRINT key it then allows you to freely enter the string >(or variable) you want to print. In other words, what you can type is >sensitive to the context of the keyword. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 11/02/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 8 months

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Help Needed With Sinclair 1000

by roblwill＠usaor.net

> > Silver? Are you sure this isn't the 1500? The TimexSinclair 1000 is > black. > Yep. The top is silver, with a black keyboard, and the bart on the bottom (looks like it should be part of the top, but isn't) is silver. The rest of it is black (bottom). I'll try to get a picture of it up on my website in the near future. > > Demonstrating the Apple //c would have been a lot easier software wise. > Where are you going to get the TV to plug the TS into? > The school has a 25" TV that they're going to let me use. It may have been a bit easier, as far as programming goes, but the Sinclair is a bit easier to sarry around, and I won't really worry if it gets banged around (as long as it's AFTER the presentation), since there's nothing mechanical on it that'll break such as a disk drive). The shortcuts amy save a little time, too, once I get the hang of them (and the tiny keyboard). -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************

27 years, 8 months

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Help Needed With Sinclair 1000

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Exactly. I like it because: 1) - it was only 50 cents 2) - it is kind of cute. Looks like a mini CoCo 1 (in the fact that it's silver) 3) - it's small 4) - it's going to save me a bunch of trouble than taking my Apple //c and disks to school for my presentation :-) -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ > > It's a cute machine but more known for its "oh, is *that* how that works?" > engineering than its elegance. Even when you expand it you still have a cute, > idiosyncratic machine. > > -- Derek

27 years, 8 months

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Classic != IBM AT

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust@threedee.com] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 2:14 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Classic != IBM AT > > > At 07:04 PM 11/2/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > >Yes, but fortunately the starting date doesn't move forwards as well. In > >other words, OK, some 386 PCs with custom chips in them are now classics > >on this list (I have a problem with saying that, BTW...). > > I tend to agree with you. Discussion of ten-year-old IBM PC clones > isn't as interesting. Dare I cause a schism by suggesting that > the ten-year-rule be changed to "computers first made before 19xx?" > I'll leave the date open to debate. :-) I think the significance of these later pieces depends on the fragmentation of the market. There was only one IBM AT, it was the first 80286 IBM machine, and created the 16-bit ISA bus that is still found in machines today. That's pretty significant. At the 80386 introduction, there were two firsts -- the Compaq Deskpro 386 and the IBM PS/2 80 (the Compaq was first, as I recall). Those machines are borderline collectable, in my opinion. By the time the 80486 rolled around, there were no firsts, the industry had evolved to a group of OEMs serviced by Intel, of which IBM was only a peer. Had EISA taken off, perhaps the first EISA machine would have been collectible, but personally, I don't think there is anything in the x86 desktop arena after the Deskpro 386-PS/2 80 that's collectible. Late '80s to present, the only things of interest are pioneering units of other architectures and/or form factors, such as the Newton OMP (Original MessagePad), NeXt cube, etc. Kai

27 years, 8 months

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Help Needed With Sinclair 1000

by roblwill＠usaor.net

> I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Solid? Translucent? Seems to me from > the few Timex models I've seen in action, the video is not so hot. Can be > tempermental depending what TV it is hooked to. Bad sync (not rock > stable), noisy and rather unsharp. Cheap design and manufacture all > around. At least it translated to a cheap price. > Well, there's a gray background, with black lettering. The bar(s) are solid black, and are about 2" wide, and scroll from the top to the bottom. It does this on every TV I connect it to. > > Bingo. Save your own programs or use commercial ones. There are a few > programs of the "home accounting" ilk released by Timex Sinclair as > cassettes. > Hmm.. Cheap design shows through here, too. There's not even a connector to hook up the "motor remote" on the cassette. You have to turn it on and off yourself (or have a VSR tape deck). All in all, even though bigger, the CoCo is about 2k times better (bigger IS better...). -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************

27 years, 8 months

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Help Needed With Sinclair 1000

by roblwill＠usaor.net

O.K. At least Now I know how to program. Not to get that annoying bar out of there. Iven if it is sort of a pain to program, it's still a neat little computer. Looks sort of like a mini CoCo 1. Does anyone know what the "ear" and "mic" jacks are for (I know what they're for, I just want to know WHY they're there). It's the only BASIC machine I've seen with a MIC plug. Or is it to connect a tape deck to? -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Cameron Kaiser <ckaiser(a)oa.ptloma.edu> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Help Needed With Sinclair 1000 > Date: Monday, November 02, 1998 5:45 PM > > As I remember, the editor automatically switches modes for you, i.e., > having entered PRINT, it goes to character mode. At least on the Spectrum + > (pulls up emulator), this is what happens. (Assume [X] represents a cursor > showing letter X.) > <<<<snip>>>> > The keywords thing is maddening, one of the quirks that rapidly turned me > off the Sinclairs. However, they are still fun little things to play with, > even if I get a lot more practical stuff done with my Commodore 128. > > -- > -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database Programmer > Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 > ckaiser(a)ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 > -- Generating random numbers is too important to be left to chance. -----------

27 years, 8 months

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Apple I Computer For Sale (fwd)

by bjorn＠ktb.net

Hi! Anybody else see this one? I wonder what kind of documentation he has to "support" that "The current value of an Apple I computer is $40,000+" Is he referring to the one that was sold for a charity? Bjorn Eng ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 2 Nov 1998 14:05:39 GMT From: David Selinger <dave314x(a)sd.cts.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Apple I Computer For Sale Keywords: Apple 1 Apple I Wozniak Steve Jobs Computer Subject: Apple 1 Computer For Sale - Historic Rare Museum Piece Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Organization: CTS Network Services (CTSNET), San Diego, CA Summary: For Sale (FS) RARE Apple I (Apple 1) 1976 Computer System Keywords: Apple I Apple 1 For Sale Antique Computer vintage computer Wozniak Steve Jobs I am offering for sale to the highest bidder an original 1976 Apple I (Apple 1) Computer System - museum quality (one is in the Smithsonian in Washington, D.C. - see their web page.) It includes: Main processor board with original chips. User Operations manual with schematic BASIC programming User's manual which came with Apple I Tape interface daughter board BASIC cassette tape Original one-sheet advertisement What it doesn't include (because Apple Computer Co. did not sell this equipment with the computer -- the user supplied it himself): keyboard, and TV. This computer is for display purposes only -- not for actual use as a computer. Though I used it as a working computer in the past, the ravages of time has likely make it inoperative. Important Additional Information: Only 200 were ever made (Steve Wozniak interview, Byte Magazine, December 1984, page A69). Of those 200, many have likely been lost or destroyed, thereby making the surviving computers worth much more because of their increased scarcity. Minimum price for starting the bidding is $25,000.00. The current value of an Apple I computer is $40,000+. Documentation to support this fact will be provided upon request. A color photo to interested parties will also be provided upon request. I am also offering a 10% finder's fee to any person who finds a legitimate buyer with whom I actually consumate the sale. For example, finding a buyer who agrees to buy the computer for $40,000.00 will mean a $4,000.00 finders fee to the person who finds the buyer. This offer of a finder's fee however is valid for only two (2) months and expires on midnight Dec. 31, 1998. Send email bids, or referrals to potential buyers to this email address: dave314x(a)cts.com I reserve the right to reject or accept any and all bids. Dave.

27 years, 8 months

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Help Needed With Sinclair 1000

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Hello everyone. I have an old Timex Sinclair 1000 computer that I recently got at Salvation Army for $.50 (they thought it was an organizer!). I bought it to do a presentation in my school on BASIC, but can't quite figure out how ot get it to work. First of all, the display constantly has an (approxamately) 2" wide (I'm using a 13" TV) black bar that rolls from the top to the bottom -constantly. Would this be caused by using the wrong type of adapter? I'm using a 9VDC 100mA adapter. Is this too little? Too much? Secondly, I can't seem to get it out of shortcut mode. I try to type "10 CLS", and I get "10 CONT LET SAVE". I know that the Sinclair had shortcus for the functions, but how do I get to the normal data-entry mode? I took it apart, and the board in it has a Zilog Z80A, a Ferranti chip (same size as Z80), a removable Sinclair Research chip, and a Toshiba chip. It says SINCLAIR ZX81 1981 (c). Anyone have info on this *tiny* computer? TIA, -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************

27 years, 8 months

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CRT decay

by Marty＠itgonline.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: CRT decay Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 11/2/98 11:04 AM At 05:59 PM 11/1/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote: > >No, I'm not sure. When I first saw it, I thought mold was growing along >the edges, but closer examination showed that that "growth" was inside the >glass, and the patterns were somewhat crystaline. I'll let you know if >it spontaneously implodes. Is it possible that you're seeing some element that's been vaporized and is now being re-deposited as crystalline material? There is so much going on inside a tube with high voltage, heaters, glowing wires, etc. that something could be vaporizing and cooling. >>Which reminds me of something I'd do as a kid: pop open vacuum tubes >>and add water to the grey material tucked inside the rings, which >>would then fizz. Maybe it was calcium carbide. I imagine it was >>there to suck up water or gas after the tube had been sealed. Sounds like you may be talking about a 'getter' which is used in the production of vacuum tubes (valves for you gents across the pond) to eliminate vapor and residual air the vacuum pump can't draw out or may be in the metal components of the tube (plate, grid, filiment and arbor). The getter is a compound (barium, magnesium, etc.) placed in the tube which is ignited after the envelope is sealed. After the getter ignites it sometimes leaves a silver coating inside the tube. Marty - John ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Nov02.110438.1767.74634; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 11:04:38 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id IAA17186; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:02:22 -0800 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id IAA52748 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:02:08 -0800 Received: from threedee.com (threedee.com [208.18.183.65]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id IAA04 686 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:02:06 -0800 Received: from winnie (winnie [192.198.5.13]) by threedee.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA00868 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:05:22 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981102092720.00ef98b0@pc> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 09:27:20 -0600 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: CRT decay In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.981101175237.508K-100000(a)behemoth.host4u.net > References: <m0za2RV-000IyNC@p850ug1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: jfoust@pc (Unverified) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

27 years, 8 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> I had one because it's not a personal computer. If you used a sedan >> to haul around heavy things, would you call it a truck? > > If you mean 'sedan', then it is probably a "Sport Utility Vehicle" (SUV) > and, yes, I do call that a truck! I don't know about sedans (saloons, we call them over here), but convertibles are very useful for carting heavy stuff around. I seldom used the back seat of my Triumph Stag for anything else (yes it was mostly classic computer stuff, so this is just on topic). Of course when the Stag died (in honourable combat with a Volvo, FWIW) I decided to get an estate car (station wagon) to replace it. I now have a pickup and a van... Philip.

27 years, 8 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I have to agree here. F connectors may be electrically nice (they offer < much cleaner connection Z-wise), but for human factors, the things plai < suck. They are way too easy to crossthread. BNCs are just about the < easiest coax connector to install (except for the old WECo types, but th < do not secure), and they work just fine at 10 Mbps. BNC is a UHF constant impedence connector. They work very well at several GHz! They just don't like high RF power (voltage). < Also, I have never seen an F connector "T". BNC "T"s are quite common. < Using existing parts is always better than inventing new ones. When BNC started to be used for Eithernet, Ts were expensive and got cheap due to volume. F connectors are common to cable industry and if they needed Ts they would be cheap too. Cat5 wire is cheaper though but I wouldn't use them around receivers or transmitters! Allison

27 years, 8 months

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CRT decay

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Stephen Dauphin <ai705(a)osfn.org> wrote: > Is this related to what I am about to ask? Could somebody do a short > summary of why Fimi(?) greyscale megapixel NeXT monitors fade after > 20,000 or so hours of use and indicate whether there are any other > monitors (perhaps some classic) that show similar problems? Because St*v* J*bs is really in the collectibles business and applies principles of planned obsolescence to make sure his computers become more valuable over time? Don't CRT filaments degrade with use? I've seen this on other workstation monitors from Sun and HP, typically ones that were used as consoles and left on 24x7. Unfortunately, for all the design that went into the NeXT, they seem to have omitted the power switch on the monitor. Also I vaguely remember, back in the days when a TV set was a big-ticket item, the local TV repairman had cylindrical devices called "boosters" that could be inserted in the circuit between the plug on the back of the CRT and the set's CRT socket to extend the life of a dim picture tube. I don't really know what it did, but I suppose it was something like a step-up transformer for the CRT filament voltage. -Frank McConnell

27 years, 8 months

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Help Needed With Sinclair 1000

by roblwill＠usaor.net

> Guess what? You don't. The Sinclairs *only* accepted keywords with the > key combinations! The appropriate keywords should be printed on the keyboard. > Not until the Spectrum +3 were you finally able to enter keywords in longhand. > O.K. How do I enter programs, then, such as 10 CLS 20 PRINT "HELLO"; 30 GOTO 20 if I can't enter things such as the "hello"? > > 1K computer, video entirely via TTL logic, Z80A at 3.5MHz. RAM expansion > available; 80x50 (I think) character graphics in B&W. Identical to the > British Sinclair ZX80 and ZX81, and scads of info are there for the taking > on the Web. > ThAnX, -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************

27 years, 8 months

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Reparing Classics (was Re: PDP-11/44 Boot Prompt)

by dogas＠leading.net

Tony... I have one word for you, pal.... vallium.... heh Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 8 months

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definition of personal computer

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

We're talking about different things. YOu're saying that a personal computer is any computer to which the adjective personal may be applied. I mean a phrase used by various manufacturers after the mid 70's >Personal computer: Any computer owned by a single individual rather than a >corporation or government entity. Alternately any computer with a low enough >aquisition and operation cost to BE owned by an individual. This fits this >group best, since especially the mini and mainframe collectors >have such animals as their "personal computers". > >The semantics become simple. >"What is this cray 1 you have in the basement?" >"It's my personal computer." > >The fact that they're also supers, mainframes, minis, or micros becomes >irrelivant. > >:) > > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 8 months

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CRT decay

by Marty＠itgonline.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: CRT decay Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 11/2/98 3:19 PM On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > Yes, "getter" is the word. > > Spefically, the getter is the wierd looking bit of metal that is near the > silverly coating on the tube, whose job is to get the residual and trapped > gas during manufacture. The keeper is the actual silvery coating, whose > job is to keep the oxygen in a state so it can not get rereleased. > >>Is this related to what I am about to ask? Could somebody do a short >>summary of why Fimi(?) greyscale megapixel NeXT monitors fade after >>20,000 or so hours of use and indicate whether there are any other >>monitors (perhaps some classic) that show similar problems? Neither the getter nor the phosphor should have anything at all to do with fading. The culprit is probably a weak cathode on the electron gun. The cathode isn't boiling off enough electrons to 'paint' the phosphor to the intensity needed. There used to be boosters available for older tv sets to goose additional life out of weak crt's. I've never heard of it in this case. Also, you can have old crt's rebuilt with new electron guns but this is VERY expensive. I would search for a replacement tube first. Marty -- Stephen Dauphin ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists5.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Nov02.151907.1767.74723; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:19:07 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id MAA28973; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:16:46 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA34600 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:16:40 -0800 Received: from osfn.org (ai705(a)osfn.org [155.212.105.100]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id MAA15 972 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:16:39 -0800 Received: (from ai705@localhost) by osfn.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA14575; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:14:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.981102151001.13947A-100000(a)osfn.org> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:14:16 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Stephen Dauphin <ai705(a)osfn.org> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: CRT decay In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.981102131127.13763S-100000(a)titan.purch.ans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

27 years, 8 months

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Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again

by franke＠sbs.de

> On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Hans Franke wrote: >> Hey, I have a way better idea - since I know, you want to >> get rid of your Poly88, I might offer you free staying for >> lets say a week or so in Munich - This will be in a thousends >> of stars class of housing wihe free pool, fresch air, >> convieniant to the Deutsches Museum and my home, right >> in the middle of the city. Great people, great hospitality, >> and I might even supply a plasic sheet, so you don't get wet .... > Can I get the same deal with a Commodore 64? As long, as they are not blown up by terrorists, our bridges are free for everyone. But for a C64 I think you have to add some money :) Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

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Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes aga

by Marty＠itgonline.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 11/2/98 2:28 PM On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > Hey, I have a way better idea - since I know, you want to > get rid of your Poly88, I might offer you free staying for > lets say a week or so in Munich - This will be in a thousends > of stars class of housing wihe free pool, fresch air, > convieniant to the Deutsches Museum and my home, right > in the middle of the city. Great people, great hospitality, > and I might even supply a plasic sheet, so you don't get wet .... >>Can I get the same deal with a Commodore 64? Make that two of us Sam. I'll even through in the data cassette. Marty Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Nov02.142801.1767.74701; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 14:28:02 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id LAA29870; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:25:48 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id LAA52418 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:25:40 -0800 Received: from mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (mailhub2.ncal.verio.com [204.247.247.54]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id LAA07 975 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:25:39 -0800 Received: from shell1.ncal.verio.com (dastar(a)shell1.ncal.verio.com [204.247.248.254]) by mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02757 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:25:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.981102112518.28501B-100000(a)shell1.ncal.verio.com> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:25:38 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again In-Reply-To: <199811021828.TAA05654(a)marina.fth.sbs.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. I especially wish the PC had a ROM debugger. It would really help me feel like I'm using a worthwhile machine. >> (and isn't this obvious) acceptable at the keyboard are relative to the >> operating system. So, which OS is it that is running on your machine? > >The 11/44 has a rather nice monitor built in to the CPU system. It runs >on an 8085 processor, and it lets you type commands on an standard ascii >terminal to edit the PDP11's memory, start/halt programs, etc. Even look >at the CPU microprogram counter. > >It's a replacement for the old lights-and-switches panel. The commands >are totally independant of any OS you might be running - in fact you can >use the 'frontpanel' commands on a machine with no mass storage at all. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> It's not that weird. Everyone knows that 286 and 386 machines are >>> crap ;) In fact, one reason is that noone gets attached to them, and >> Just tell these to some of the Yougoslavian dealer >> on swap meets and fleamarkets over here they are >> mostly ignorant and see PC as PC - no mater whats >> inside. 86 laptop with broken case just 200 Mark >> (as seen last weekend :) WooHaHa. > I was really wondering how to pay for my next trip to Europe, and this sound > better than ebay! Now, how many can I take in my luggage. I can probably > fit about 15 or so, since these are in better shape, maybe I can get 300 > marks. Let see, 300 * 15 = 4500 marks which is about (I think) $3000 USD? > That will just about cover it :). Just be aware to display them for some weeks before they get sold (and lets equate some with 50+). Hey, I have a way better idea - since I know, you want to get rid of your Poly88, I might offer you free staying for lets say a week or so in Munich - This will be in a thousends of stars class of housing wihe free pool, fresch air, convieniant to the Deutsches Museum and my home, right in the middle of the city. Great people, great hospitality, and I might even supply a plasic sheet, so you don't get wet .... And you could still try to sell your 15 laptops :) *g* Gruss Hans Sorry Marvin, I just could not resist - You just don't know these trolls we have on every swap/flea market. Serious, you're wellcome, when ever you are in Munich. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

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About VCF 2.0 and system design

by franke＠sbs.de

Servus Derek, > (I may bring my Kaypro to show to > people, or perhaps just software -- there were other Kaypro demos there. > ) I may need your help in the near future. I just aquired a Kaypro 4 this weekend (just ~25 USD) - its in a bad visual state, but it seems to work (I cleand it, and it is powering up), but there where no system or application disks. So geting the system disks would be helpfull. Do you have some, ode do you know someone who does ? Thank you Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< It's possible to make transistors with not too complex equipment It's trivial. All you needs is some crystal pure germainium and two gold wires. The wires will be placed ajacent to each other without touching and in contact with the chunk of germainium. To that apply a pulse of current to each wire to cause localized heating and hence contact doping. Test your transistor. You will find it noisy, leaky, slow and exactly the same as the Bell labs proto! congrats, you have succeeded. You can now continue on to grown junction, alloy, diffused and then silicon based devices. Junction FETs will come later after you have figured how to get planar diffusion technology. Allison

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Cool MIT gig

by rax＠warbaby.com

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Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again

by franke＠sbs.de

> It's not that weird. Everyone knows that 286 and 386 machines are > crap ;) In fact, one reason is that noone gets attached to them, and > also because Pentia aren't that much different from 386s. So, no > nostalgia. And, I think that early PCs were a lot less useful than > some other machines of the time (like Commodores and Apples) Just tell these to some of the Yougoslavian dealer on swap meets and fleamarkets over here they are mostly ignorant and see PC as PC - no mater whats inside. 86 laptop with broken case just 200 Mark (as seen last weekend :) WooHaHa. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

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CRT decay

by Marty＠itgonline.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: CRT decay Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 11/2/98 12:00 PM At 11:41 AM 11/2/98 -0500, Marty wrote: > > Sounds like you may be talking about a 'getter' which is used in the > production of vacuum tubes (valves for you gents across the pond) to > eliminate vapor and residual air the vacuum pump can't draw out or may > be in the metal components of the tube (plate, grid, filiment and > arbor). The getter is a compound (barium, magnesium, etc.) placed in > the tube which is ignited after the envelope is sealed. After the > getter ignites it sometimes leaves a silver coating inside the tube. Yes, "getter" is the word. The substance I remember would generate an ozone-smelling gas when wetted. It physically resembled calcium carbide in color in appearance. >>Offhand, I'm not sure how this coincides with your description of an >>ignited compound: you'd think there wouldn't be much oxygen there >>at that point in manufacturing, and what combustive process would >>*release* free metal? From what I've read there are traces of oxygen actually in the metal parts, plus the vacuum pumps cannot draw all residual gas from the tube. The getter flashes and literally burns the residual gases from within the tube and the metal components. A byproduct is the silvering on the inside of the tube. I can look up the process and give you more details if you wish. I have a 1935 book entitled 'Theory of Vacuum Tubes in Radio' which goes into great detail on the matter. It explains the various getters and why they were introduced in manufacture along with the chemical makeup of the getters. Marty - John ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Nov02.120049.1767.74650; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 12:00:50 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id IAA20799; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:58:01 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id IAA60496 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:57:57 -0800 Received: from threedee.com (threedee.com [208.18.183.65]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id IAA16 963 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:57:55 -0800 Received: from winnie (winnie [192.198.5.13]) by threedee.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA01143 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:01:11 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981102105614.00f68100@pc> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 10:56:14 -0600 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: CRT decay In-Reply-To: <1998Nov02.114008.1767.155220(a)smtp.itgonline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: jfoust@pc (Unverified) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

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A record?

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

Oh, come now... B^} The king of gear moving is (and probably will remain for some time) Paul Pierce (keeper of the mainframe collection). Estimated to be around 75 TONS in overall weight (as noted in a Wall Street Journal (!) article on Friday), Paul has moved the entire collection at least three times that I can think of, before it arrived in its current (permanent) home. Some might want to have a look at the WSJ article. It also features quotes >from a number of names that most will be familiar with. Its (the article) easy enough to find... it begins on the front page! -jim --- At 10:19 AM 11/1/98 +0000, Pete wrote: > >On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > >> I thought I did well moving a Vax 8530/6310 cluster, complete with >> 2 HSC50's, TA78/TU78 and about 15 RA8x and some RA7x drives from >> a warehouse to my parents house, then getting it up a narrow gap into a >> vacant granny flat. Over gravel. >> But we did have a forklift load it on the vehicle for us. >> >> I think the PDP effort beats that one. >> > >What about my uVAX II? I collected it from the 2nd floor (3rd floor in >US terms I think), 2 of us carried 2 RA81s and the 19" rack unit down a >steep, narrow, winding staircase and the out through the owner's garden >before loading it all into a medium six UK hatchback (Vauxhall Cavalier). >My other 3 RA* drives came from an old established University down even >narrower staircases. At this end I cheated, as I was moving them on my >own by then I brought them into the house by wheelbarrow :) > --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

At 10:09 AM 11/1/98 -0800, you wrote: >On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > >> It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for >> computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. I especially wish the >> PC had a ROM debugger. It would really help me feel like I'm using a >> worthwhile machine. > >Boot DOS (or open a DOS window). Type "debug". Not in ROM but its what >you want. The Zenith PCs have a good ROM based debugger that works very similar to debug. Press Control, Alt and Insert simultanously. It'll put you into the ROM based system monitor. It Type ? for help. Joe

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CRT decay

by franke＠sbs.de

>> What is this CRT from again? > It's a 30-year old CRT from a 30-year old computer. The surface is glass, > AFAICT. 30 years ? That's not realy old - I had think of maybe 50 years, since I know special cases of degradiation of old tubes from around the war, especialy when stored in very dry (less than 60%) and warm (average 25 C) conditions. But all of this doesen't affect the glass. 'Only' the coating around the tube (to keep light out). and inside of the tube (sometimes additional coating and of course the phosphor layer at the projection screen). The coating on the outside is often just turned to dust on tubes of this or greater age, since they didn't use any kind of ceramic material - often just special kinds of paper, that turns out to be very teperature and heat sensitive. When these coatings have been kind of hard, they also suffered >from the expansion of the tube. The coatings on the inside had only the teperature and mechanical problems, and seam to be very stable when stored properly and not to warm (I know TV sets still working after 50 years!). But when exposed to heat, the inner coatings also degenerate. I have seen complete clear Braun tubes ... just some dust in one corner... Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

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What to do with an 11/44!

by hhacker＠gte.net

Actually, the machine is less for my personal use as it is for posterity. My goal is the creation of a museum of such computers, so that our posterity will not soon forget the nature of computers in the 1970's, perhaps into the 60's. I doubt that I shall ever get a chance to obtain machines like the 7090, 1620, and 1401 (all IBM). Nor will I likely obtain ENIAC. Yet, there is still time to salvage and restore many mainframes, machines which will never again be graced with production runs, fresh Hollerith cards, etc. These first and second generation electronic digital computers are clearly antiques, and the processors of our day will soon join them in history. That is what a museum is all about. Remember, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it! William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Mitch Wright <mew_jac(a)swbell.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 3:44 PM Subject: Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt >So what are you personaly going to do with 30' of rip roaring PDP-11/44 >and diskdrives? > >--Mitch >

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bit addressing, alignment, bus errors, and VM (was Re: PDP-10 arch question)

by John.Dykstra.jdykstra＠nt.com

>> Are you certain of that? Cray designed the CDC 160, and had a hand in the >> CDC 6000s, but I do not think the STAR. Seymour Cray had more than a hand in the design of the 6000 series. Although he worked with some fine engineers (Thornton (sp?) is one name I remember), I believe that the instruction set, architecture and packaging scheme all primarily came from Seymour. >After more than 25 years, I am not certain of anything. But if Cray had a >hand in the CDC 6000s, and he was still around CDC at the time the >STAR 100 was designed and built, I would certainly think that he was >also involved in the STAR 100 as well. As I remember (I was working on CDC's mainframe products at the time, not the STAR), the STAR's were done by the people "left behind" after Seymour left. As such, there was an unspoken agenda to the effort: The engineers were trying to prove that they were just as good as Seymour, and the executives were trying to prove that letting him leave wasn't a mistake. >I thought I saw an article about >the STAR 100 recently which described the circular nature of the physical >rack which was required in order to reduce to length of the wires which >interconnected the different parts of the system. Again, I'm not positive about this, but I think that the STAR's that I walked past on the test floor were in conventional rectangular boxes. ---- John Dykstra jdykstra(a)nortel.com Principal Software Architect voice: +1 651 415-1604 Nortel Networks fax: +1 612 932-8549

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PDP-10 arch question

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< What machines have had bit pointers? 8051. There may be others. Allison

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