- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu

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27 years, 6 months

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PDP-11/35 looking for a home

by mbg＠world.std.com

27 years, 6 months

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PRO-350 looking for home...

by mbg＠world.std.com

Posted on comp.sys.dec.micro, contact the person listed, not me: - - - - - Hello, I've got the following stuff I'd like to get rid of - time to clean out the closets - a PRO 350 with a RD52 with the graphics adapter and a net card, plus it's got daughterboards with the one meg conversion I installed and a monitor and keyboard. Works fine. I'm willing to part this thing out as it's too heavy to actually ship anywhere whole . . . . please email jboldway(a)cottagesoft.com - - - - -

27 years, 6 months

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MfM and Dll

by lwalker＠mail.interlog.com

I picked up an HDD made for the Atari ST by ICD. It is a shoebox form and has space and connectors for 2 HDs. The highly proprietory HD interface by Atari (ATASCI ?) is usually directly converted to SCSI in most newer HD adapter interfaces for STs. In the Atari and ICD HDs the DMA output was converted to SCSI by an ICD card and then to MFM or DLL. via an Adaptec 4004 (MFM) or 4070(RLL) controller. This one has an Adaptec 4070. The 1 drive present is a Miniscribe 3834P . I understand that some MFM drives could be coded by a RLL controller if they were fast enough, etc. I have an ST4096, which according to the specs I have seen is an 80 meg MFM , as well as several other smaller MFM HDs. According to a spec sheet the 4096 would work with Perstor Systems ADRT controllers to double the storage which would seem to indicate it was of high enough speed and quality to stand the tighter coding.. Anyone know if this is also true with an RLL controller or what MFM drives do work with RLL ? ciao larry lwalker(a)interlog.com

27 years, 6 months

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Old ASCII (was: Re: Stupid CP/M question)

by Philip.Belben＠PowerTech.co.uk

> (including the square brackets) after the PIP command. The syntax is wierd > but that's the way DEC did it in all of their operating systems, which CP/M > is based on. (Actually, they use the underscore which according to the > pre-1968 (?) version of ASCII looked like a leftward-pointing arrow.) PET has a left arrow for that code as well. Sensible, since underscore is available elswhere in the character set (shift-$ IIRC) but I never knew it used to be standard ASCII. What other changes have there been? Is there any precedent for PET using up-arrow instead of circumflex? Philip.

27 years, 6 months

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"Non-manufacturers"

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Bell and Howell (Hell and Bowel, Ball and Howl, etc.) made plenty of >their own stuff (mainly peripherels), however. Affectionately (?!) referred to as 'Belch and Growl' by members of Techno-fandom. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 6 months

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Stupid CP/M question

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<some forms. There was precedent. But the guy hacking <DOS was just messing around, trying to do a slightly <better CP/M (as was Digital Research, who GAVE AWAY the <whole stinking computer world to Bill Gates on a silver Specifically it was seattle computer that needed a 16bit os for their S100 8088 box. They literally took CPM1.4 disassembled it and lofted it to run on 8088 and called the result Q-dos. They had no incentive to improve it and cpm1.4 was actually behind V2.2 (then current!). Billy took it and modified it some say per IBM to go from the CPM allocation scheme to FAT (Billy had used that in their disk basics). <For crying out loud, the first versions of UNIX ran on <minis that didn't have any more memory space than micros. <(OK, so they had 16 bit processors, I know. So did the <PC! Sort of...) Unix had been on DEC pdp-11s for years when the Altair rolled out. It was a $24,000 source license and even though the PDP-11 is 16 bit the instuction set, memory managment and disks were about 10 years ahead of the PC. Unix wanted memory and it wanted a hard disk of some size to work well. What si forgotten is the path to unix(linux etal) was via C language for micros. To that Scot Guthry(Tinyc) was the starting point for Smallc and later SmallVM. Those things were the catalyst needed to get people interested in C (adverse to BASIC and PASCAL) as a language. With a systems language people were thinking about Unix (written in C). concurrent to this DRI was working on and delivered GSS Kernal, GSS-80, and GEM which was influential in presenting graphics to the desktop as part of the OS. Others were doing it but as standalone apps aimed at specific hardware. This was the early to mid 80s where the PC went from XT to AT, DOS to desktops and integrated applications and the z80 was still giving them a hard run for the money. It wouldn't be until the late 80s and the advent of the 386 before the battle lines were starting to clear. In the mid to late 80s the SUN, Apollo and DEC (others too) workstation war would extend to the PC market via apple and the Mac and push 32bit cpus, graphics, networking and performance. I's more than Gates getting dos, it was opportunities and near disasters in the industry that got us here. Even Gates saw a few really bad years in the mid 80s when dos3.3 was really the harbinger pointing at an end of the line with something new/better needed. Graphics we know were not going to happen on PDP11 or most other 16bit cpus as they don't address enough space. OSs were driven by the environment and it's tasks plus space needs. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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new to the list

by mbg＠world.std.com

>>the list (which is supposed to be very single-minded) contains a number >>of people who actually are single-minded (Tony Duell, Allison Parent, >>Megan Gantry, Pete Turnbull, maybe others). This is good! Don't >>misunderstand me. It's the way it's supposed to be. > >I resent that! I go off topic when the mood or whatever suits, like now. > ;-) I'm not 'singled-minded', I'm *focussed* :-) some would say obsessive-compulsive... :-) and I, too, will respond off-topic... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 6 months

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new to the list

by jonathan＠canuck.com

Hi, folks. I'm new in these parts, having been referred to the list during a quest for some (very) old Data I/O programming equipment. Before I stray from that subject, if anyone has any "Programming Paks" and accompanying socket adapters, I'd appreciate hearing from them by mail. I need a number of particular sets for 1702, 5204, and 6653 EPROMs. If'n anyone's interested, they're for an original Intel MCS-4 (4004) development system, National SC/MP, and Intersil 6100 (the pdp8-compatible one) respectively. I'd also like to hear from anyone who has or is familiar with any of these machines. After a couple of days lurking, I'm finding the endless discussion of Altair prices and email "formats" dreary. The former was a rather badly built piece of crap compared to the IMSAI (though we obviously have to acknowledge the Altair's historical importance - right BEHIND the Mark 8), and the latter has nothing to do with antique computers. I should think that the list owner should have clamped off that discussion some time ago. In other news, Miles O'Neal (meo(a)netads.com) queried: > I'd really like to get hold of a functioning > (or close) Compucolor or Intecolor from the > early 80s. The ones we used at Georgia Tech > were all in one unit (I think), a big color > monitor console sort of thing, like God's own > ADM3a, in technicolor. (I could be wrong, > but that's what I seem to remember.) I'd > prefer one with a disk drive. > > I think this was the coolest thing ever for > learning graphics stuff. > > Anyone have one a mere mortal can afford? I can't imagine why you'd want one. The big Intecolors were mildly interesting, but the 8-track cartridge tape drive was junk of the first order. The later Compucolor IIs (in the hacksawed portable television case with the 5" floppy where the tuner used to be) was one of the most unreliable hacks of the time. I serviced them circa 1980, and they were really bad news. One of the worst excuses for a roll-yer-own switcher I've ever seen, and nonexistent development software. Words of advice: If you want to learn graphics, go track down an SGI Indigo - the purple cube. They're down in the couple-of-hundred-bucks zone now, and one of the most elegantly built machines I've touched in almost 25 years in the biz. On the subject of home-supers, I'd be interested as well in hearing what's out there. We're anticipating getting our hands on a Cray YMP-EL/98 soon, and it appears there are a number of these air-cooled boxes being dumped in various parts of the world. Jonathan Levine

27 years, 6 months

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supers

by jonathan＠canuck.com

William Donzelli <william(a)ans.net> desperately wished to know: > > That's why we're after our first Cray, > > Please tell... Not much to tell yet. It's a YMP-EL/98, the 8-cpu version of the air-cooled "baby's first Cray" series. It's been promised to us, but there's a certain amount of corporate bureaucracy left to clear. Apparently we're going to be asked to vow not to sell the machine - or cycles - to terrorists or other unsavory sorts. Whether participating in distributed crypto challenges (like RC5) qualifies as "unsavory" is yet to be determined. At the moment, we know of two other machines of the same family that are now in private hands. More news when we've got it. Jonathan

27 years, 6 months

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5.25" Floppies on a P2 system

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

OK, I realize the subject line looks off topic, but it really isn't since this deals with handling and archiving classic media. I seem to recall someone mentioning some of the utilities such as 'putr', 'teledisk', and various other won't work on a modern PC with a 5.25" floppy drive attached. Am I remembering correctly? If so does anyone remember which programs are effected? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |

27 years, 6 months

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R.I.P. Hayes

by kurtkilg＠geocities.com

On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 rhblake(a)bigfoot.com wrote: > They still have an active and alive webpage at http://www.hayes.com/ without any > mention of demise. Where did you get this info? ZDNet. I think Hayes probably forgot to update their webpage, they probably have better things to do. ---------------------------------------------------- Max Eskin | kurtkilgor(a)bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor

27 years, 6 months

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Tic-tac-toe (was: RE: Bulbs in parallel)

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> ObOT: BTW, does anybody know approximately when tit-tat-toe got renamed >> tic-tac-toe? Or is a regional thing? > > Don't our "Queen's English" friends (uk and au) call it "naughts and > crosses"? Well, I _did_ call it that when I wrote a programme, sorry, program fom my PET to play it. But it was a pun on the more conventional spelling, "noughts and crosses" AFAICT, Nought = Zero, Naught = Nothing Tic-Tac-Toe is a name I had met even then, but Tit-Tat-Toe I've not come across before. Any etymological connection with Tit for Tat? Philip.

27 years, 6 months

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RT - the rude, the bad, and the ugly

by netcafe＠pirie.mtx.net.au

-----Original Message----- From: Miles O'Neal <meo(a)netads.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, 9 January 1999 19:03 Subject: RT - the rude, the bad, and the ugly <snip> >Quick vignettes... > >1) I contracted for IBM here in Austin for a while. There > was an RT on the austin.ibm.com network named "doorstop". > AFAIK, about all it was being used for was to answer the > pings for "doorstop". > >2) At PSW, Frank King (the IBM upper manager who more or > less built the IBM workstation division) had just been > installed as president when we took him on a tour of the > premises. As we escorted him into the secure lab, his > eyes lit up as he saw an RT. > > ``An RT! Wonderful! What do you use this for?'' > > Tom Stewart pushed it in front of the door to hold it open. > ``A doorstop? What else?'' <snip> >The high bidder would get to step out back onto the rifle range >(why have 5 acres in Texas without a rifle range?), and put a >7.62mm bullet into the RT's evil, beating heart. <snip> >Nah, I'm sure there are 3rd world countries that would take them. >But after they had them a while, they'd be even more pissed at >the US than they are now... 8^/ Is that possible??? ;^) Having almost choked on my coffee (actually it, was a West End Draught, but I digress) and had my leg scratched by the resident cat who took flight off my lap whilst reading the above, I think it may be time that we required such posts to have an obligatory warning of C&C (Coffee & Cats) variety, so I don't do it again. :^) Any seconders? Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au >

27 years, 6 months

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RT-11 Help

by dogas＠leading.net

Thanks for the URL, Zane. Looks like I'll have to turn on the Bat... errr... Magen signal. ;) *throwing switch* - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 1:29 AM Subject: Re: RT-11 Help >>I dont know RT-11 (yet.) and am looking forward to the experience. But >>before that happens the seller wants to purge some sensitive employee files >>on the system. Can someone tell me how to tell him to 1) move through the >>directory structure, and 2) how to delete specific files ( some that span >>partitions 0 - du4 according to him ), and... > >No idea on this I'm afriad. My RT-11 system is no where near this complex yet. > >>Where can I find a good source of RT-11 info? > >The RT-11 manuals, and good luck finding a set :^( > >On the other hand the following URL will have some basic info if you take >the time to do some serious looking. It also has all kinds of other >interesting info, DEC and other. >http://www-ols.fnal.gov/ols/documents/docpn.html Of course this is all >pretty specific to some government lab. Wish they had more of the >documentation they list on line. > > Zane > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | >

27 years, 6 months

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SCSI floppies

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Hi! I've got a question: has anyone ever heard of a SCSI floppy drive? I was talking to someone about one, and he said he'd never even heard of one, and when I thought about it, I hadn't either. Anyway, my question is about a WANG WLTC laptop that I have. It has an internal 10 MB JVC 16pin HD (ID 0), and an external (no internal) 360k SCSI floppy (ID 1). In the manual, it says that a 720k floppy and a 1.2 MB floppy was also available for it. My question is will a 1.44 MB floppy work on it? If so, where would I even be able to find one, since I've never even seen one until I got this huge WANG. (weighs about 18 lbs, plus the floppy is about another 18). Happy Holidaze -and- ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1>

27 years, 6 months

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Bulbs in parallel

by dcoward＠pressstart.com

Sorry this is so late. I just don't do email when I'm at home. And so over Christmas a lot of email piled up and I'm way behind in my reading. If this question has been answered, well I havn't gotten that far yet in my reading. >On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com wrote: >> Unfortunately, lots of "fundamental" knowledge gets left out when you >> skip electric lights and go to things much more complex. Max Eskin said: >OK, now I have the feeling I may have forgotten something. When you wire >some bulbs in series, and one burns out, they all fail. If they are wired >in ||, and one burns out, the others keep burning. What more is there? OK, what would you say if I told you that you could build a two input AND gate or a two input OR gate using just two neon bulbs (in parallel), one resistor AND NO TRANSISTORS? Or, how about a one bit readable, writable memory circuit consisting of one neon bulb, two resistors, and a capacitor? How about a ring counter with no ICs, no transistors? I put some scanned pages up on my web page so you could grab them. The .ZIP file consists of 11 .GIF files. Each file represents two pages. So lamp4546.gif (pages 45 and 46) is the first two pages and lamp6566.gif is the last two pages. The zip file is at http://www.best.com/~dcoward/lamp.zip If you can't view .GIF files offline, then just bring up each file with your browser. Start with http://www.best.com/~dcoward/lamp4546.gif I'll leave the files up for at least a week. I hope this rekindles your interest in lamp circuits. ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA =========================================

27 years, 6 months

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Fw: What is a VAX 8350 fully loaded worth?

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

This one is for all you British collectors. -----Original Message----- From: Jamie Stallwood <jamie_stallwood(a)bigfoot.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,comp.os.vms Date: Monday, 11 January 1999 9:54 Subject: Re: What is a VAX 8350 fully loaded worth? >There will be a pair of 8350's with CI and dual HSCs coming free in about 3 >months in Britain. If anyone can suggest a good home for it, or wants to convert >it into a large freezer or something, dop me a line at >jamie.stallwood(a)cwcom.co.uk and I will let you know when it will become free. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)

27 years, 6 months

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The IBM 3101 NATO round?

by meo＠netads.com

Geoff Roberts said... | |>Crappy Soviet 7.62x39 military ammo. | |That too. :^) But a 7.62 NATO is a little shorter than the 7.62 Russian. The 7.62 NATO is 7.62x51, the same as a .308 Winchester. The 7.62 Russian rifle cartridge is slightly longer than this (either 53 or 54 mm), but that's completely different than the 7.62x38, which was developed for carbines. |Got to Indonesia. We sold them the contents of the factory that made |our 7.62mm NATO/.308 SLR's |(Self Loading Rifles - Basically an FN rifle with a few refinements) You |could probably buy one dirt cheap. By the time I factor in the trip, that would be equivalent to going to Alaska to bu a Sinclair ZX80. |>But, like an IBM 3101 terminal, you can toss an SKS or AK off a roof, |>run over it with a truck, drag it through the mud, and it will *still* |>let you log on and do its job. Um, I mean, shoot as well as it ever |did. | |This is not exactly inspiring. An AK is probably the most inaccurate |assault rifle ever built. |(As I'm sure you know already);^) At 100m, it's just fine. Which is what it wa sbuilt for - short range (I admit, the idea of running the sites on my SKS up to the 500m setting is hysterical - I would want something like a battleship for a backstop! But the IBM 3101 was a beast, too. Slow. Clunkiest keyboard I think I have ever used. As big as a Cromemco with a Televideo 950. But built like a tank. |No experience with IBM 3101's, so I'll take your word for it. B^) It was IBM's irst (AFAIK) attempt to enter the world of ASCII and RS-232. It was, I suppose, successful. It was the right thing to put on a MODCOMP, which was what we had them on - because they would probably both survive WWW III. |It would have to be truly awful to beat an ADM3 though. I have one of |those. Want to get rid of it to make space for something else? 8^) -Miles

27 years, 6 months

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Mac HD20 INIT needed

by rcini＠msn.com

Hello, all: I recently got a Mac HD20 hard drive, which is the floppy-based hard drive for the 512k Mac. It requires the HD20 INIT file, which does the following: <insert> The Mac 128 and 512k will need [the HD20 INIT] extension to use the HD20. The Mac 512ke and Plus do not. Basically the 64k ROM, 400k drive Macs need the extension and 128k ROM, 800k drive Macs don't. The 128k ROM as well as the HD20 INIT give the required HFS instead of MFS of the 64k ROM. In fact your Mac512k can also use an external 800k disk drive with the HD20 INIT (and this works out well, 400k internal, HD20 hard drive, 800k external floppy). The early Macs can support up to 3 floppy devices (including the one inside)." </insert> Does anyone have this file? Thanks! [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================>

27 years, 6 months

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Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report

by dogas＠leading.net

From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> >Adobe Streamline is a raster-to-vector program. I've got it, but I haven't >ever tried it on schematics. I would disparage Streamline but I assume/hope its improved in the 4 or 5 yrs since last used it... The vectorizer ( Trace? ) from Corel was pretty good at that sort of stuff though. - Mike:dogas@leading.net

27 years, 6 months

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new to the list

by netcafe＠pirie.mtx.net.au

-----Original Message----- From: Miles O'Neal <meo(a)netads.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, 9 January 1999 19:10 Subject: Re: new to the list >Ward Donald Griffiths III said... >|tools I've found from a commercial supplier -- if somebody was to >|port SMIT to Linux, my life would approach perfection. > >If they did, and trie dto put it on my system, I'd have >to hurt them. Ok, as a (currently) AIX deprived person, might I ask WTH is SMIT please? Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au

27 years, 6 months

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Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report

by gregorym＠cadvision.com

At 10:57 PM 1/10/99 -0600, you wrote: >OK, next time somebody tells you that the Altair was the first personal or >home computer, give them this URL: > http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/berkeley/report.html > > <snip> > >-- Doug > Very interesting document, Doug, and fun to read. But I think that in 1956, a $4000 computer (Simon) could hardly be considered a home or personal computer. Wouldn't that have been more than most people's annual salary? I think on the price/performance scale, the Altair is the winner and still champion; it's price was probably in reach of more hobbyists. Cheers, Mark.

27 years, 6 months

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Macintosh SE

by fauradon＠pclink.com

What kind of network are you working with? Appletalk, Ethernet..? -----Original Message----- From: van <van(a)wired.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 7:00 PM Subject: Macintosh SE >Hi there... > >Does anyone have experience networking a Mac SE? I really need some advice... > >Please help! > >xoxo van > >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >van burnham +++ van(a)wired.com +++ 71 +++++++ http://www.futuraworld.com >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >designer +++ http://www.hotwired.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 415.276.8424 +++ >wired digital +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >++++++++++++++++++ 660 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 > >

27 years, 6 months

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Y2K stuff

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

-----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn(a)ricochet.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, 11 January 1999 12:28 Subject: Re: Y2K stuff >At 12:53 PM 1/9/99 +1030, you wrote: >>Are they polymer rather than paper like all ours are now? > >Still paper, but with a few more security features. > >>To save money, the govt withdrew all coins below 5c, we now have $1 & $2 >>coins, > >The US could have hundreds of millions of dollars by doing that (at least >$1 coins) but it has been demonstrated around the world that the only way >to do that *successfully* is to pull the bills out of circulation >immediately as the coins are released. That is what happened here. No notes < $5. The $1 & $2 coins are a brass composite, and are gold in color. Quite distinctive. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)

27 years, 6 months

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Bulbs in parallel

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

-----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink <bill(a)chipware.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, 12 January 1999 7:41 Subject: RE: Bulbs in parallel >> ObOT: BTW, does anybody know approximately when tit-tat-toe got renamed >> tic-tac-toe? Or is a regional thing? > >Don't our "Queen's English" friends (uk and au) call it "naughts and >crosses"? Noughts and Crosses actually. :^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)

27 years, 6 months

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PR1ME system rescue

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

-----Original Message----- From: John Lawson <jpl15(a)netcom.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, 10 January 1999 14:08 Subject: PR1ME system rescue > The system is CPU, 32M of ram, 16 I/O ports, a Century 300M 10" >drive, a Seagate Sabre attached to a SCSI PORT!! (yay!) a Kennedy >9100 in Prime livery, and the usual load of cables and Stuff. Congratulations. I want one of those too. Getting a bit rare around here. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)

27 years, 6 months

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Now very OT:Re: RT - the rude, the bad, and the ugly

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

-----Original Message----- From: Miles O'Neal <meo(a)netads.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, 10 January 1999 5:46 Subject: Re: RT - the rude, the bad, and the ugly >Ward Donald Griffiths III said... >| >|> >The high bidder would get to step out back onto the rifle range >|> >(why have 5 acres in Texas without a rifle range?), and put a >|> >7.62mm bullet into the RT's evil, beating heart. >| >|Crappy NATO 7.62 renaming of .30 cal. Jerks. Gimme a Winchester >|.308. >Crappy Soviet 7.62x39 military ammo. That too. :^) But a 7.62 NATO is a little shorter than the 7.62 Russian. I was taught that an AK47 would chamber and fire a 7.62 NATO round, (a bit loose, but it's fireable) but the 7.62 Russian won't fit in an SLR, FN or M60. I doubt this is an accident. >But find me a new gun in .308 for $99, and I'll buy it. Got to Indonesia. We sold them the contents of the factory that made our 7.62mm NATO/.308 SLR's (Self Loading Rifles - Basically an FN rifle with a few refinements) You could probably buy one dirt cheap. I wouldn't vouch for how legal it would be. It's not a full auto weapon, (the L1A1's we had, anyway) so it should be importable to your country at least. There was an auto version (L2A1, IIRC) but it wasn't a big hit. Our Armed Forces downgraded (IMNSHO) to a locally made/modded version of the 5.56mm F88 Steyr (Bullpup style) They have already discovered that:- 1: If you go to ground the wrong way, you will smash it to bits (it has a lot of plastic). Magazines and the butt are particulary vulnerable. Magazines are transparent plastic. 2: It's not as accurate as they hoped because the scope gets beat up by belting it around in the bush. 3: It's not as accurate as they hoped because the barrel/breech fit gets stuffed up becaus of the brass hats insisting that the grunts have to take the barrel off (a twist fit) when carrying out safety on the weapon. You are supposed to pull off the barrel and squint into the breech to make sure it's empty. This is not good for the weapon, as it wears the lugs that latch the barrel to the receiver, eventually the weapons accuracy (which is very good out of the box) reduces to a point where it's only somewhat better than an AK47. 4: It's less reliable, lot's more little moving parts. 5: The round does less damage at long range than the heavier 7.62, particularly, it doesn't penetrate anywhere near as well. 6: The troops hate it. 7: WOD's/RSM's hate it. The rifle drill movements looks like S... "Reverse Arms" is a joke with this weapon. 8: It's capable of full auto and it weighs less than the SLR. About the only positive statement I've heard about it, so far. 9: It doesn't have a bayonet fitting. >But, like an IBM 3101 terminal, you can toss an SKS or AK off a roof, >run over it with a truck, drag it through the mud, and it will *still* >let you log on and do its job. Um, I mean, shoot as well as it ever did. This is not exactly inspiring. An AK is probably the most inaccurate assault rifle ever built. (As I'm sure you know already);^) >[Which isn't that great, but fine for what it was intended for. Useful at short range, but then so is a 9mm SMG. >Just like an IBM 3101. Truly the Mack Truck of ASCII terminals.] No experience with IBM 3101's, so I'll take your word for it. B^) It would have to be truly awful to beat an ADM3 though. I have one of those. I used it as a console for a Vax for a while. (Shudder) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)

27 years, 6 months

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Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report

by cswiger＠wilma.widomaker.com

>OK, next time somebody tells you that the Altair was the first personal >or home computer, give them this URL: First - that's very interesting research and glad to read about it (esp. remember some switch/relay/light versions of the FoxHenCorn puzzle as well as Nim, and they remind me of the Claude Shannon maze solving mouse in SciAM. I almost had that schematic memorized but never built one. It had a 3 bit memory so it could 'learn' a 3 fork maze, and a rotating 'randomizer' for the one's the mouse didn't know. My 'first' personal computer then was made out of a piece of fence, 24 or so nails, a 'D'cell, 3 or 4 lamps and a lot of hookup wire) B_b_b_but Berkeley Ent. didn't really market it as a personal *home* computer, looks like the target audience they hope to sell into is advertising gimmicks, 'show stoppers'. Also, unlike other machines sold to academia or business uses, the Altair was marketed to people who buy or build their own HI-FI/Stereos, CB/Ham radios - i.e., the HOME hobbyist. For $60/ month. I can own my OWN computer, free and clear to do whatever I want with, not limited by the funding strings that dictate what I can do with one at work or at school. Free at last!! Again, without any further defining guidelines, other than the default Intel ('PC') lineage, and a tip of the hat to the unsuccessful Mark-8, I posit that the 'first PC's' are the abacus, knots on string, pushing stones around on tables, Napiers bones, slide rules - or does it have to include an 'active' element (relay, tube, transistor, IC)? I'm lost as far as what your qualifying criteria is. Of course, one can always custom tailor their list of criteria so that the machine you've already chosen as 'first' comes out as such, post facto, hehe. Chuck cswiger(a)widomaker.com

27 years, 6 months

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Bulbs in parallel

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

Yep... That's it. I guess my recollection isn't too bad considering I hadn't seen one in 35 years. Haven't been following this group long enough to realize it's already been discussed. Shoulda known someone here would know what it was. Thanks, Steve Robertson - QA Team Leader <steverob(a)hotoffice.com> -----Original Message----- From: Ward D. Griffiths III [SMTP:gram@cnct.com] Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 4:58 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: RE: Bulbs in parallel The Edmund Digi-Comp I has been discussed here in the past, examine the pictures at <http://galena.tj.edu.inter.net/digicomp/> and see if they look familiar. Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Steve Robertson wrote: > A little story: > > Seeing the tinkertoy computer reminds me of the mechanical "Computer" I got > for Christmas when I was about 7 years old (1961..ish). It was a long long > time ago and my memory could be a little distorted but, as I recall: >

27 years, 6 months

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Bulbs in parallel

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

A little story: Seeing the tinkertoy computer reminds me of the mechanical "Computer" I got for Christmas when I was about 7 years old (1961..ish). It was a long long time ago and my memory could be a little distorted but, as I recall: It was made primarily of plastic and was about a foot long, 6 inches high, and 6 inches deep. This "toy" was built in horizontal layers or "planes" where each plane was one bit in the computer. The planes could slide either to the right or left to represent the logic states. If the plane was in the leftmost position, it represented a "0". If the plane was in the rightmost position, it represented a "1". I believe there were about 4 planes total. There was a "flag" (literally a flag) attached to the left end of each plane that provided the output. As the machine was cycled, the flags would raise and lower with the change in states. Along the rear of the computer there were a series of vertical wires that pushed the planes either to the right or to the left. These wires were the logic "gates" that drove the computer. As I recall there were about 8 of the wires (gates) in total. There were small projections from the rear of each plane that interacted with the wires (gates). To program the computer you placed small sections of a plastic soda straw, about 1" long, on some of the projections. The straws provided the input for each of the gates. If a straw was on one of the projections, it would interact with the wire (logical 1). If there was no straw on the projection, the wire would not touch the projection (logical 0). To operate the computer, the user would move a selected plane from one state to another. Any straws attached to the projections on that plane would push against the wires (gates) which in turn would push against the other planes in the machine. Some of the planes would change states, some would not. For each cycle of the machine, the user had to program in the next instruction. This meant moving around the straws on the back of the machine. Once the next instruction was loaded, the plane was slid back the other way. I never thought about it before but, this thing actually got two instructions per clock cycle. Max clock speed was about .01 CPS :-) The manual had detailed instructions for playing TIC-TAC-TOE and it actually worked. Unfortunately, it did not provide enough other examples so, I could never figure out how to make my own programs :-( I'm still fascinated by mechanical computers! Steve Robertson - QA Team Leader <steverob(a)hotoffice.com> > > So, where is the gag ? Just don't forget, the Z1 was entirely > > mechanical, to be powered by a crank (if necercary - of course they > > prefered th electric motor :). > > Gag? Mechanical computers are serious stuff, Hans. Like Danny Hillis' > tinker-toy tic-tic-toe machine: > http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/toy/tinkertoy.jpg > > ObOT: BTW, does anybody know approximately when tit-tat-toe got renamed > tic-tac-toe? Or is a regional thing? Don't our "Queen's English" friends (uk and au) call it "naughts and crosses"?

27 years, 6 months

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y2k stuff

by Philip.Belben＠PowerTech.co.uk

David Hansen wrote: > Ok, so it sounds like the general consensus on this list doesn't > perceive any possible problems from systems that perform automatic > disconnection/refusal of services due to systems that are based on > time/date ranges? Here are some examples of situations that are believed > to be possible... No, it is not that we do not perceive any possible problems. I at least believe that there will be problems. But I don't believe there will be major ones. And I certainly don't believe that they will happen all suddenly on 1/1/00. > utilities (power/water/telephone): > Say a disconnect period is 2 consecutive months of non-payment. A > customer pays his/her bill regularly but if the date isn't interpreted > properly the next time the system does a check for 'disconnect > candidates' it will not be able to find a single payment from a single > customer within a 2 consecutive months time period prior to 01/01/00 > (1900). Possible. And may affect telephones. But water, gas and electricity suppliers won't have the staff to go out and cut everyone off, since this has to be done physically at the premises. Besides, such a huge number of disconnections will be noticed and the cause identified. > banks: > Keeping in mind that banks routinely deactivate and -absorb- every > account that is over x years idle (commonly 2 yrs. but every one I have > come across has some variant of this), see how the above method applies > to this situation. Are you sure this is legal? A couple of years ago the National Savings Bank (as it was in the UK) were saying that they had accounts that had been inactive for over eighty (yes, 80) years with a few shillings in but they couldn't close them because they couldn't trace the owners or their heirs. (BTW Nat Savings never paid interest on balances less than a pound, so a few shillings 80 years ago is still a few * 5p today) AFAIK there is nothing in any contract I take out with a bank that says that if I deposit money and leave it there for over 2 years they are entitled to it. I come back 10 or 20 years later expecting to retrieve my savings. Yes, I did this with my German bank account in 1995 having not touched it since (I think) 1985. It was still there and I could still draw money out when on holiday in Germany. Yes, empty accounts may well vanish, and rightly so! > vendors of perishables: > Shipments of perishable items (food/medicine) are refused by automated > systems that read the dates on the items as expired. This has _already happened_ and will be addressed long before 2000. IIRC a chain of supermarkets in the UK was asked by a tinned (canned) food supplier why they were suddenly ordering three times the usual amount of tomatoes. It turned out that the warehouse was accepting tinned tomatoes each day; overnight the stock check found that they were out of date ("best before end feb 00" or something) and ditched them, and the following day more were ordered. It is not something that suddenly happens in 2000. > payroll: > Employee doesn't have any hours during the 'new' pay period so no > paycheck is issued. Also paychecks are issued with wrong dates and such. > Clients aren't billed if there isn't anything in the billing period. > etc... May happen. But the first manifestations of the bug will have turned up already - temporary contracts that expire in 2 or 3 years for example. Our accounting, job control etc. system uses 2 digit dates. Last year (or the year before - I forget) a lot of work was done on our system and a 2 digit date is now assumed to lie between 1950 and 2049. > security access: > I'll use my company as an example. I have full access to the office > building between the hours of 7am - 7pm M-F by way of a keycard. If the > wrong year is being calculated then M-F can easily be Sat-Wed., etc... As Tony and others have pointed out, this will probably occur. But it is relatively easy to override manually until sorted out. > credit cards: > Accounts are deactived or non-existent. Credit card companies - I forget who told this one from personal experience - hit the bug a year ago with cards that _expired_ in 00. This made them do all the necessary work then. While I concede that it is possible that there may be a few bugs left in (spurious late payment penalties for example), I doubt that accounts will disappear (and who will care? I'm not going to fuss if a lot of money I owe is forgotten about ;-) ). I know this is another "assumption" - that having hit the one bug they did all the work to cure the others - but I think the evidence points that way. Damn! This discussion is way off topic and I wasn't going to join in. Oh well, I've typed it now. Philip.

27 years, 6 months

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Sociology and Message formatting

by Philip.Belben＠PowerTech.co.uk

> Spiritusumdrucker! What a fantastic word! I think that would be a > mimeograph? Oh, a spirit duplicator! I've been wondering for ages what a Mimeograph was! In the UK such machines were generally known by brand names. For small runs - a couple of hundred copies - one used a Banda machine (2-part sheets on which typing or writing transferred a waxy, usually purple ink to the back of the top sheet. The duplicating machine put solvent on this so it would transfer the ink to the paper. For longer runs one used a Gestettner (I don't know how to spell it, either) machine. Cut stencils by typing with the ribbon disabled in your typewriter, or drawing with a special stylus. I heard of electronic stencil cutters that would transfer a plain paper image to a Gestettner stencil, but I never saw one. Philip.

27 years, 6 months

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ST506 on a modern system

by meo＠netads.com

Can modern IBM PC clones easily handle ST506 hard drives? IE, is IDE a superset of this? Or does one have to find an ST506 controller board? Thanks, Miles

27 years, 6 months

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Sociology and Message formatting (Spiritusumdrucker)

by mtapley＠swri.edu

All, >By the time I was in high school dittos were a distant memory. To put it >in (classiccmp) perspective, by that time inkjets were still on the >horizon and dot matrix printers were still the <rage>. As a matter of fact, mimeograph/ditto/Spiritusumdrucker machines provided me with one of my favorite examples of "antique" technology's applicability. My wife was teaching at a high school in the early 1990's that had a way over-subscribed photocopier and an idle mimeograph machine. She made handouts on our Mac Plus using WriteNow and SuperPaint (both fantastic programs). She then printed them onto mimeograph masters using our ImageWriter 1, an *impact* (dot-matrix) printer, at home the night before class. She'd take the master to school in the morning, hook it up to the mimeograph machine, and crank out 250 copies as fast as she could turn the crank - then stroll to class past the line of frantic teachers awaiting their turn on the photocopier, having saved the school appx. $10 in copying costs. She could also save and modify files and print new masters at her convenience. No need to carefully retype or coddle a master for a whole year for next year's class, or try to stretch a dying master for 30 more prints. It was a great system. BTW, she later convinced me to *give away* the Imagewriter in favor of a Stylewriter (inkjet) we recieved as a gift, just prior to moving to Texas. Not one of my better decisions. Ah well. - Mark

27 years, 6 months

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a little more compucolor rant; sgi

by jonathan＠canuck.com

Courtesy ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell): >> I've ever seen, and nonexistent development software. Words of advice: >> If you want to learn graphics, go track down an SGI Indigo - the purple > Look, (and this may sound strange....) if all you want to do is compute, > go and get a PC or a Mac, right. Part of the fun of classic computers is > dealing with 'warts and all' - the fact that there are kludges > everywhere, but somehow we get round them. Yup. With a great big hammer and a nearby dumpster. If I want warts, fun, and interesting, I'll spend my time on the MCS-4 or even one of my old DG Novas. They had their strengths and their weaknesses, but they were both well-built and historically significant. A badly-designed machine was a waste of time the first time around - you insult your own short lifespan by wasting yet more. If you don't agree with me, I'll be happy to send you a box of assorted unreliable S-100 DRAM boards that will keep you busy well into your retirement. As for fun vs. usable, who the hell says you should have to choose? Why not have both? That's why we're after our first Cray, why we maintain the NetBSD Build Lab (a single location in which we're trying to assemble one example of each machine supported). Normally I couldn't give half a shit for Amigas, but it's fun to rackmount one and help get unix running on it. Maybe that's the primary philosophical divergence here: I consider few obsolete machines to be inherently interesting, when there are so many others that are merely _thought_ to be obsolete but are still utterly useful given a current, robust OS. > Having once tried to get spare parts out of SGI, never again. I don't > want a totally unmaintainable machine, thank you very much. It was all > custom silicon, and it was all unavailable.... Well, this is just silly. How much more luck have you had getting parts for that Compucolor? SGIs are just like anything else - if you've got enough bits you can maintain them yourself. And I'll tell you one thing for sure: Gathering enough spares to do the support is easy, seeing as how there aren't (yet) any collector scum driving the prices of Indigos to 20 times their original price. Jonathan

27 years, 6 months

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North Star Horizon

by ekman＠lysator.liu.se

Speaking of the Horizon, does anyone know anything about a New Jersey-based company called Dendron Amusements? They apparently produced a number of games for the Horizon based on Avalon Hill's strategy board games. This must have been around 1979. I am interested in any kind of information about this company or its games. /Fredrik

27 years, 6 months

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old sgis

by jonathan＠canuck.com

Arfon Gryffydd <arfonrg(a)texas.net> wanted to know: > I have a chance to grab some Silicon graphics Irix 31xx machines... They > SEEM to need a boot tape. Anyone know anything about these boxes? What's > the OS? There were a number of mostly-accurate replies to this yesterday. Seeing as how I wrote the FAQ, I'd like to present the mostly-definitive reply. First, this is a 68020-based, Multibus machine. Nothing at all in common with the later MIPS systems. According to William Donzelli <william(a)ans.net>: > You are going to want and OLD version of IRIX (around version 3), as these > boxes were fairly quickly kicked off the support wagon (SGI seems to be > kind of bad about that). These old things are not incredibly usefull Unix > boxes, as X was never (to my knowledge) ported to them. The graphics are > quite good even today, as it probably has a board stuffed with Geometry > Engines. IRIX 3.6 was the last OS distributed. There's some incomplete 3.7 stuff kicking around, but probably not of interest to most. To my knowledge, no open-source unix has ever been ported to one. X is not supported, though TCP/IP is, so you can get it on the network, but it's going to take you a bit of work to make it useful, like compiling bind, as they predated DNS. Your server will offer you a delightful choice of drives: ST506, ESDI, or SMD. No SCSI. Note that when SGI put out the first 4D (MIPS R2K/R3K) machines, they called the OS IRIX 3.something as well, just to create confusion. > Well, there are 3 of them for about $30.00 each... Huge cabinets and huge > monitors... IMnot-so-HO, that's too much money. Stuff of that vintage should be GIVEN to you for nothing. Pay 'em $90 only if they'll deliver. > Are they worth grabbing? Can I use the monitors for anything? Can I > connect them to my ARCnet/Ethernet/Parallel/Serial port network and be > useful? Yes, they all have ethernet. Want a unix box? If so, they're worth grabbing. Monitors are fixed-sync RGB, and probably not useful on anything else you have or might get. As it happens, there's another (non-list) chap for whom I've been getting my 3130 running again (a bad video board, then a blown /etc/passwd...) in order to generate a boot/install tape. I'd be much more enthusiastic about doing it if there were a few other people on the list who need them as well, so I can do a bunch at one time. Jonathan

27 years, 6 months

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y2k stuff

by KFergason＠aol.com

In a message dated 1/5/99 12:40:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, Its an interesting thought, and I know from personal experience that a set of Kenwood Twins operating at 100Watts about 4 ft from a TRS80 Model 1 can cause it to crash. I would think its possible for a big solar flare to at least affect an old TRS80. unlikely, though. kelly dastar(a)ncal.verio.com writes: > > >>> > > Every 11 years the sun sends storms of cosmic rays which disrupt all sorts > > of electrical devices. The last was in 1989, and they are due again in <snip> > > >>> > > As Bill Gates would say, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. If > cosmic rays were to blame for the EIs suckiness then every computer back > then would have had similar problems. No, you can't blame Radio Shack's > sorry-assed engineering on cosmic rays, but nice try. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic. > com >

27 years, 6 months

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ST506 on a modern system

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

>Jerome Fine replies: > >I realize this may be a very dumb question, BUT if I have an ST506 >Qbus controller (either DEC RQDX1,2,3 OR 3rd party compatible >like Dilog or Emulex), would it be possible to change the 34/20 pin >cables (NOTE: On the Emulex DM01, there is already ONLY a >SINGLE 50 pin cable which is split 34/8/8) and connect those >cables in some manner to an IDE drive? Thats a dumb question. The situation is that an IDE drive has it's controller on board the drive and it is proprietary. The purpose of the IDE "controller" card is only to provide a standard interface. Hans

27 years, 6 months

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NorthStar Horizon incoming

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Bruce, FOLD THE LINES! MY screen is not 200 chars wide and I really hate horozontal scrolling! < Here's what I remember about Horizons: S100 bus, CP/M for an OS, built pre < The native OS was NS* DOS not cp/m though there were several vendors of CPM configured for horizon. Generally they were z80/4mhz cpucard, MDS hard sector disk of 80k for the older single density controller or up to 800k for the later DD controller. Ram minimum for running NS*dos was 16k orged at 2000h while cpm required 20k(minimum and 56k max due to memory mapped disk controller). The s100 backplane was not IEEE696 complient but pretty close considering its design window was many years earlier. The mackplane also carried the logic for two serial ports, parallel port, interrupt logic and a heartbeat timer. A minimum system could then be the box and three cards and the most often cards added were ram. Theses systems use an external terminal though I'd set mine up with a VDM-1 video card and a encoded parallel keyboard. Another OS that ran on the NS* was UCSD PASCAL P-system. The basic system for that required 48k ram and two floppy disks minimum and three(or four if it was the DD version) were more useable. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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X.25?

by fmc＠reanimators.org

"Max Eskin" <kurtkilgor(a)bigfoot.com> wrote: > Wired (no, I don't usually read it) reports that hackers were intending to > disable Iraqui computer networks, which were supposedly accessible by > dialup, and using a 'vintage' protocol called X.25. Could someone tell me > what sort of protocol this is and what machines it's likely to involve? There used to be (probably still are) X.25 public data networks. "Public" means "not private" -- effectively, the network owner sells connections and bandwidth to paying external customers, not just to users within the owner's company. You as a customer would pay your money, and the network owner would deal with details like telco so that you effectively get RS-232 synchronous serial port(s) that want to see and hand out X.25 packets at your various locations, and X.25 network addresses corresponding to those ports. Or maybe you would pay for the telco stuff and an access charge to the network provider, and get a port on the network provider's X.25 packet switch. This might be of use to you if you had a need for computer/computer or computer/terminal communication between distant locations. Host computers (minicomputers and larger) often had X.25 network interfaces available as an option, and software that supported computer-to-computer communications and/or terminal-to-computer communications over it. Terminals didn't, but you could get devices called PADs (Port Access Devices? I can't remember) that had connections for terminals, an X.25 connection for the network, and could either act something like a multiplexer, running all the terminal sessions over a permanent virtual circuit (PVC) to a host's address, or like a terminal server, using switched virtual circuits (SVCs) to connect to any host address on the network. Or you might just have a host and a casual need for connectivity from terminals in remote locations, e.g. you've got some database and you sell access to it. So rather than installing a modem rack, you get a connection to Telenet and tell your customers that they need to dial in to their local Telenet access number (which is really a Telenet-owned modem pool with something-like-PADs behind it) with a terminal and modem and connect to such-and-such address. Either way, the X.25 public data network solution could be cheaper than installing point-to-point telco data lines between your hosts and terminals, and the X.25 network provider could offer internal redundant routing that might be prohibitively expensive for you to implement on your own. Now, that said, X.25 networks do not need to be public. If you have the wherewithal, you can build your very own X.25 network out of the same sorts of hardware that the public data network providers use. I guess the Iraqi government could have one or several. And I remember a data center that, in the late 1980s, got fed up with its computer-to-computer communications being done entirely of point-to-point links between computers (with a protocol that wasn't smart enough to forward messages -- if you wanted to go from host A to host C, and the only connection was through B, you had to log on to B >from A then C from B) and bought a small Dynapac X.25 switch to sit between the computers. X.25 can also be used to transport other protocols' datagrams, e.g. IP. In fact the US Defense Data Network was IP-over-X.25 and may still be for all I know. I think this sort of thing is either incompatible with or distinct from using X.25 to carry host/terminal traffic (in much the same way that e.g. rlogin and telnet are distinct -- they both run over TCP but use different protocols, and different ports so TCP can multiplex them), so you can't just dial into a PAD and telnet to a host doing IP over X.25, unless the PAD also does telnet and IP over X.25. -Frank McConnell

27 years, 6 months

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Digital handbooks available

by meo＠netads.com

I have a pair of 1981 Digital handbooks: VAX Architecture processor handbook pdp11/04/24/34a/44/70 Instruction sets, addressing modes, all that jive. Don't recall where I got them, except that I saved them from a circular file. I don't need them (I have plenty of books on the VAX and I never got into the PDPs). Anybody need them? -Miles

27 years, 6 months

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Message formats

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 02:47 AM 1/9/99 -0500, you wrote: >> understand your subject well enough. If you need to include formatting >> (such as Word files or data or even code) it can be sent as an attachment > >What code (I assume we mean programming, not encryption) could ever >need formatting aside from appropriate indents? (The progam's >compiler shouldn't even require those). Sorry, I meant *compiled* code, as in executables... You'd think I would have learned by now not to respond to e-mail when I'm exhausted. (Of course, that would mean never responding... If life ain't interesting, it probably ain't worth living.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 6 months

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Want _Fire in the Valley_

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Anyone know where I can get or have a spare copy of _Fire in the Valley_? Someone was going to send me one a while back but never did. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98]

27 years, 6 months

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NorthStar Horizon incoming

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 805 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990109/6d618d78/at…

27 years, 6 months

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micro PDP-11 "Fatal RSTS/E system initialization error!"

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

I powered my micro PDP-11 up for the first time, today. Here's what happens (please keep in mind I have no manuals or familiarity with the PDP-11): Memory Test Message: "Booting from DU0" Message: "Device XK0: does not interrupt - device disabled" Message: "RSTS v8.0-07 Micro/RSTS (DU0) INIT v8.0-07" "Option" prompt. At the "Option" promt, I typed "Help", bringing up a list of options. {To actually begin "using" the computer, am I correct in assuming I want to select the option "Start" to start timesharing?} At the "Option" prompt, I typed "Start". Here's what the screen looks like, afterwards: Option: START Disk is being rebuilt - wait... DU0 error UDASA P.OPCD P.STS P.BCNT P.BUFF P.BUF2 P.LBN 000000 000242 020006 000000 044000 000000 000001 Unrecoverable disk error on DU0 PC=121232 PS=030341 OV=000022 M5=001600 M6=003242 SP=041274 R0=000000 R1=077777 R2=042125 R3=172150 R4=041410 R5=140026 Fatal RSTS/E system initialization error! Option: -------End. Now to me, this sounds like a bad hard drive, but I'm not at all familiar with this. If somebody could offer their opinion as to what's wrong here (and what to do about it) I'd be most appreciative. Thanks! Tom Owad -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>

27 years, 6 months

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North Star Horizon

by jonathan＠canuck.com

Bruce Lane <kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com>, a voice of desperation in this data wilderness, cried: >Looks like I'm getting a Northstar Horizon box come July. Friend of mine's holding it for me until I can get down south and pick it up. >Here's what I remember about Horizons: S100 bus, CP/M for an OS, built pretty well. >More info would be most welcome. My specialties for 'classic' systems are with DEC and Sun. Close. The Horizon was definitely one of the better-built and more reliable S100 boxes of the time. 10 slots (I think), and a little unusual in that the serial and parallel I/O were built into the motherboard. Most had a wood case. (I once had to replicate all that stuff on a wirewrap board for a client who needed more than 10 card slots and had to migrate to a Cromemco Z2 chassis while maintaining I/O compatibility. I also discovered with that system that their hard disk - a 14" 20(?)meg Century drive - suffered from serious read/write problems due to ground loops. Annoying but solvable. I digress...) CP/M was available, but not the stock OS. North Star (originally Kentucky Fried Computers - swear to god) designed their own unique floppy controller (it was their entry into the S100 market) and had a proprietary OS to go with it. The controller was a full S100 board to run the 5" drives alone, and the weird and difficult thing was that they used HARD sectored floppies, 10 sectors per track (not to be confused with the 16 sector floppies used by Micropolis). Jonathan

27 years, 6 months

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Apple II+ Problems

by tim＠thereviewguide.com

Hi. I recently got an Apple II+. OK, it's not the most exciting system in the world, but very cool in it's own respect. It's totally FULL of all kinds of add-in cards (including a AD/DA converter), and has 64K RAM. (48K+16K Pocket Rocket), etc. So basically, it's a nice II+, but more important to me is the add on cards, which probably hold tons of interesting secrets. There's a problem. MACHINE WILL NOT BOOT. I can turn it on, floppy spins, but I won't get a display. None at all. One possible reason is that the local power is 110v, 50hz, not 60, but the IIc works fine. It was also shipped here air freight, but once again, other computers work, but that doesn't prove anything. Ideas? Suggestions? Tim ******************************************** *Tim D. Hotze - Co-Founder, The ReviewGuide* *tim(a)thereviewguide.com * *http://www.thereviewguide.com * ********************************************

27 years, 6 months

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NortStar Dimension?

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

I'm sure someone here has heard of a NorthStar Dimension. Was it a PC compatible system? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98]

27 years, 6 months

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