My worst run-in with a soldering iron was when I was doing some
work at my father's emergency-lighting plant *man* years ago.
They used real industrial strength soldering irons (the metal
body was about 1" diameter and the tip was a 4-sided point which
was easily about 1/4" diameter).
Well, I had placed the iron in its holder, and was reaching for
something else when I caught the cord and the iron started to
fall... my instinctual reaction was to reach out and grab for
it, which I did... grabbing it firmly with my hand... quickly
turning most of my palm and the anterior surface of all my
fingers and thumb into seared tissue...
I never did that again...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
>Worst burn I ever got from a soldering iron was when somebody tripped
>over the mains lead. The iron was dragged through my hand and I was left
>gripping the metal shaft. OUCH!.
I have also had a fair # of burns in similiar manners but the one thing I
would suggest for children is to wear glasses. When I was 9 or10 I was
desoldering something when some solder splattered into the tissue in the
corner of my eye. 1/4 inch over and it could have been serious. I almost
always now make sure I am wearing glasses.
Dan
Was just going thru a stack of boards from a recent acqusition, and
discovered a NorthStar FPB-A S-100 Floating Point board.
Looks like a good addition for my Horizon system, and it even came with the
paper tape of NorthStar BASIC with FPB support. What it did not show up
with was a manual, and it is only partially assembled.
Anyone have a spare they could part with, or can carve a copy? I'd like to
try and get this thing running. Also, if anyone has a copy of the disk
based BASIC with FPB support, I'd like to nab a copy of that as well.
Thanks;
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
------------------ Cut from Web Page -------------------------------
MOTHERBOARDS for COMMODORE VIC-20, the ever-poplar 5K memory color
computer which still has a dedicated following. All components intact.
"Some worked, some didn?t" when we powered-up a sampling and so we are
selling them "AS-IS." Good source of spare parts or, if your a gambler,
the basis for cheap computer; 3 lbs. sh. Two versions to choose:
#VIC-01981, eleven 2114 RAM; 9 VAC req. $7.50
#VIC-01983 with two M58725 2Kx8 RAM or equal; requires 9 VAC and 5 VDC,
$6.50
COMMODORE C-16 KEYBAORD, originally p/o the C-16 computer---a short-lived
transition computer between the VIC and C64. By switching a few wires, it
will work with VIC on most keys. Change info included. 5x15x1.5; 3 lbs.
sh. #KB-C16 $3.00 (If purchased w/ VIC board $1.50)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh - you want to know WHICH Web Page 8-)
Beleive it or not - Fair Radio - out of Lima Ohio
http://www2.wcoil.com/~fairadio/module.html
BC
A web search turned up a reference on the Cheapass Games web site
(apparently really good games, if you like that sort of thing) to a lego
adding machine. I thought it might be the same as the one I had found
previously (that has since disappeared) but even though it isn't, it is
very interesting. Enjoy!
>No, I don't think Rick's adding machine was ever up on a web site.
>
>I was co-designer of the model, and I can give you a description of how
>it works.
>
>The "Fish/Ernest" ;) adding machine was essentially a stack of binary
>half-adders, powered by marbles. We got as far as designing the guts of
>the thing, but never made the outsides (marble tracks are sort of
>academic) so much of the device was hypothetical. But the guts worked.
>
>The half-adder itself starts with a hole through which a marble is
>dropped. This marble will toggle the half-adder with one of two possible
>results:
>
>1: If the half-adder is "on" (a flag attached to the gear mechanism is
>up, representing a digit of 1) then the digit will turn off and the
>marble will proceed to the next lower half-adder as a carryover bit.
>
>2: If the half-adder is "off" (the flag is down, representing a digit of
>0) then the flag will be raised, and the marble will go into a waste
>chute.
>
>A stack of these half-adders can be read from bottom to top, with the top
>flag representing the 1's place, the second the 2's place, the third the
>4's place, and so on. Each layer is about 7 bricks high, or roughly 3 1/2
>inches.
>
>The whole thing is gravity-powered, and you "charge" it by dumping a
>handful of marbles into a holding pen at the top. You can input marbles
>one at a time at the top, but we also designed a set of fingers that
>would push marbles from lower holding racks into the appropriate digits
>in the machine; for example, to add nine, one could push in the "1" and
>"8" fingers simultaneously, and everything will fall out successfully.
>This was probably the neatest thing about the machine.
>
>The waste chutes were designed to conserve energy by funneling waste
>marbles into the holding racks for the next level.
>
>Of course, the machine had only the binary output, and could only add.
>But it was still pretty neat.
>
>Anyway, that was longer than I thought. Hope it's as interesting for you
>as it was for us.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>
>-James Ernest
>-Cheapass Games
>
>>Hi! I was wondering if you could do me a favor and as Rick Fish if he is
>>the guy who used to have a web page about his Lego Adding Machine at
>>http://legowww.homepages.com/projects/adding/project2.html?
>>
>>I am a collector of older computers, and there has been some discussion of
>>late on a classic computer mailing list about early mechanical computers
>>(such as the Digi-Comp 1). As part of this discussion, someone brought up
>>a Tinkertoy Tic-Tac-Toe machine, and I recalled seeing a lego adding
machine.
>>
>>Unfortunately, the link I had is no longer valid, but a web search found
>>the cheapass games staff picnic page where Rick Fish is listed as having
>>created a Lego adding machine. Even if he is not the person who had the
>>above-mentioned page, I (and others) would love to hear about his
calculator.
>>
>>In any case, thanks in advance!
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
>>
>>Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
>>roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
>>Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
>>San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
>>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
Doug,
I got all the H8 stuff you'll ever need... will copies suffice. I'll check
and see what dups I have.... What are you looking for?
I'd like at least a copy of the Poly 88 stuff.
No papertape stuff (you lucky bastage)
Thanks
- Mike: dogas(a)leading.net
From: Doug Yowza <yowza(a)ooga.com>
>I have available the following original Poly 88 docs for trade:
> Volume I: Assembly, Test, and Theory of Hardware (1976, 52pp)
> Addendum to Volume I: Serial Option (1976, 14pp)
> Cassette Interface Minicard (1977, 44pp)
> Memory Addressing, Vectored Interrupt, and Serial I/O (32pp)
> Volume II: Operation and Software (1976, 100+pp)
>
>I need Heathkit H8 docs, but I'd also consider other pre-1977 micro docs
>in trade. I'm also looking for H8 software on papertape (copies are
>fine).
>
>-- Doug
>
>
>
Hi all,
i got here a micropolis 1355 drive with my pdp, but the disc only spins up,
and after few seconds down again. It happens again and again forever. like
a jojo :-((
the power supply is ok.
any ideas ?
thanks,
emanuel
Just found a free PDP 11/23 which I'll be picking up tomorrow, and a VT220.
I know nothing at all about this machine - are there precautions I should take before shifting it? Drive parking or some such?
Are there any hard to find extras that I should ask about before collecting it? Thanks for any help the list members may provide. As you can tell, this is quite urgent - about 18 hours before I pickup.
The guy also has 6 free Sparcstation SLCs - I didn't bags those - maybe I should?!
A
Hi Doug,
I have an H-8 (with another on the way) with absolutely complete docs
(including the sales slip).
I don't think I have much in the way of paper tape though.
Contact me.
Jon
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>I have available the following original Poly 88 docs for trade:
> Volume I: Assembly, Test, and Theory of Hardware (1976, 52pp)
> Addendum to Volume I: Serial Option (1976, 14pp)
> Cassette Interface Minicard (1977, 44pp)
> Memory Addressing, Vectored Interrupt, and Serial I/O (32pp)
> Volume II: Operation and Software (1976, 100+pp)
>
>I need Heathkit H8 docs, but I'd also consider other pre-1977 micro docs
>in trade. I'm also looking for H8 software on papertape (copies are
>fine).
>
>-- Doug
>
>
>
>Now, though, it appears that most [Lego] sets contain special parts for
whatever
>model that set is supposed to build, parts that aren't much use for
>anything else. Seems not to encourage imagination anything like as much.
I know what you mean... but my son (6) does manage to find many new uses for
the "special parts", combining insectoid legos and aquatic legos and
everything else to form really interesting creations.
Somehow it seems to parallel the trend in programming... the components that
you build out of just get more elaborate, but that doesn't necessarilly mean
that programming today is less creative, it's just that you're building at a
different level...
- Joe (your friendly neighborhood Microserf)
On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
> I wouldn't call FOR..NEXT low level. I'd call it a high level
> construction based on the low-level GOTO.
What I meant was, in the early BASICs, you would have to type out the FOR
loop with a variable, an increment, a conditional statement, and a goto.
In the later BASICs, you don't have to type it out, and it's also a lot
easier to understand that the NEXT X must be going back to that FOR X= 1
TO 10 I saw a while ago, as opposed to scrolling incessantly trying to
find where each GOTO leads.
I don't know exactly at what point the FOR...NEXT gets translated into its
components, but the point is, since it doesn't have to be typed out, it's
somewhat lower-level.
----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor(a)bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor
At 09:33 PM 1/13/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> Obcc: Yes, you can build computers and calculators from Lego. Any reason
>> why you couldn't replicate a Digi-Comp with Lego?
>
>A Digi-Comp built with Lego blocks would be huge and fragile, plus
>those vertical metal rods would have to be fabricated. When I had my
The Mindstorms kit includes some long-ish axle pieces which might work.
There are probably other ways of doing it as well. You're just not being
creative enough. (Check out the web sites I posted previously -- one
includes a lego computer that looks kinda like a digi-comp (in a
uninitiated, unobservant kinda way.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 12:00 AM 1/14/99 +0000, you wrote:
>> But to say that a kid should not be introduced to computers until they can
>> read enough to use unix or can handle a soldering iron is to do a major
>> disservice to the kid.
>
>Why?
>
>I'm disputing the word 'major', BTW. It's possible that some 18-month old
>kids will enjoy looking at coloured patches on a computer screen. But I
>don't think that _not_ showing them that will cause any form of permanent
>damage.
I made an assumption (at least I think I wrote that) that a reasonable
computer was available. To say, I've got this computer which could help
the kid learn to learn better, develop logical skills, and even learn to
read and understand math, but I'm not going to let the kid use it because
it's a windoze machine and I want the kid to be a Unix guru" is a major
disservice. Same as saying "I've got a TV and Sesame Street and National
Geographic comes on sometimes, but I'm not gonna let the kid watch those
because someday they might want to watch teenage morphin' ninja turle soup
with Howard Stern." Another grave disservice. And another analogy: You
could say "Sure, I've got a major library next door, but I'm not gonna let
the kid go there because it might read the gatekeeper's monologue from
Macbeth where he talks about hookers and drunkenness."
I'm not saying that every parent has to go out and buy their kid a
computer, or that the kid will turn stupid without it, but if you've got
the resources, use 'em.
Remember, that being a parent means subjugating your own desires for the
benefit of the kid. You have to give up a lot for that kid, and that may
include a no-Winblows rule, or worse. Hell, you might even have to miss a
football game now and then.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
> Ouch! That's nasty. The reason RSTS can't recover is because it's block 1.
>
> You'll need to reinstall RSTS if you want to use it. Drop me a private
>E-mail. I may be able to help.
Hi Bruce,
Thanks for the info. I'd would like to get the unit running. Will
reinstalling RSTS definately do it, or could the hard drive need
replaced, as well? I'm assuming I'll need the RSTS disks on 5.25" to
reinstall RSTS. Is that something I can get for a reasonable price?
Thanks,
Tom
--
Sysop of Caesarville Online
Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>
Today I have saved from the Skip/Tip/Dumpster two items of IBM
manufacture, about which I know even less than the Prime 550-II I'm
trying to get working.
To wit:
An IBM 9404 processor, at least that's what I make it out to be,
since it's front panel has IPL settings, a QIC-1000, and attached to
the back are several 8-channel Twinax adapter cables. A p-Touch
type label on the side says 'XS400' The ID plate also says its
release level is V2R2MO and its PIF Level is C2261220.
With it, though perhaps systemically unrelated, is an IBM 3174-1R,
obviously a terminal controller of some sort. It has two 5 1/4
floppies and a niche for storing the diskettes, and there are three
of them, marked by printed IBM label for this machine.
Also there was a complete (non-IBM) PBX-type voicemail system, but
that I know something about and can get on the air. (Sam: its a VMX
D.I.A.L.)
I am curious to know if anyone is familiar with the IBM stuff and
even more curious to know if anyone *wants* the two.. I sure
don't. They are not terrifically heavy and thus shippable... hint
hint hint.
I could not bear to see them go off the loading dock into Oblivion.
Cheerz and Thanks to all for the Prime help so far. This weekend
I'll have time to research more on my own.
NOTE to Prime-familiar folk who may be reading this:
I will buy PR1ME engineering/maintenance docs related to the
hardware I have; or copies of same. 250/550 series.
John
I know this is probably OT, so you can email me off-list if you can help. I need
some advice from some experienced Sun folks.
I have the opportunity to pick up a 3/80 and an IPC. I need someone to help me
find docs or help me with hookup/boot procedures. I am a complete newbie to
Suns, and would like to try running Linux. I can't find any specs on the 3/80 as
far as internal architecture, so that would be a good starting point.
I know I'm jumping on a pretty steep learning curve, but I want to play with a
real OS.
Let me know, please. I appreciate the help.
Thanks.
Paul Braun
NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you.
nerdware(a)laidbak.com
www.laidbak.com/nerdware
At 01:29 AM 1/11/99 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote:
>
>I have the plans for Magdum, and it's about 30 pages of hand-drawn
>schematics. Does anybody know of a way to convert a raster scan of this
>kind of stuff to some sort of vectorized format (maybe EPS)?
There are methods of scanning blueprints and converting them to CAD
formats, but these programs are expensive and esoteric, and I'm not
sure how much hand-drawing they tolerate. There are common methods
of auto-tracing for illustration purposes. PhotoShop, for example,
can trace a bitmap and export the path as an Adobe Illustrator file,
a form of EPS.
However, these AI/EPS files are ASCII, meaning they'll
take up as much (or more) space than a mono TIFF. What's your objective?
Distribution of the images? I say leave them as scans. Autotracing and
cleanup of 30 pages would consume days. How would you view EPS/AI files?
Tools for viewing and printing bitmaps are far more common and easier
to use than tools that handle EPS/AI. (I know about Ghostscript.)
- John
From: Andrew Davie <adavie(a)mad.scientist.com>
Are there any hard to find extras that I should ask about before collecting it?
I'm now a pdp'er yet (my 23 compatible comes in this weekend) but recent discussions indicate that you should grab *all* ancillary stuff for the dec, especially.... the RT-11 manuals! worth, oh... about.... $1,300.00 ( and if you do, please drop me some email. ;))
- Mike: dogas(a)leading.net
If you have a Macintosh and are interested in DEC Hardware I heartily
recommend the following URL http://www.han.de/~bb/pdp8e/pdp8e.html If
you've not downloaded Bernhard Baehr's PDP-8/e simulator recently it's
gotten REALLY cool. He's added a front panel, that is just to cool for
words :^) For example, when you turn the key to the 'off' position, it
shuts the simulator down. You can flip switches and watch the blinken
lights :^)
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
<on disk size supported (say number of 256-byte logical sectors), a more
<robust (economical, speedy) disk structure could be developed.
<
<If we allowed a 32-bit logical sector pointer, then 2^32*2^8 bytes could
<be stored. That is 2^40 bytes total. Since 2^20 bytes is 1 Meg, a 32-bit
<logical sector pointer allows 1 megamegabyte. 2^30 bytes is 1 Gig, and
<2^10 is 1024. Therefore, 2^40 bytes is 1024 Gig.
<
<I think a 32-bit pointer would be sufficient for a while. Most drives
<available are under 20 Gig.
Several key items.
Most more recient disks are 512byte sectors.
Even with 16bit pointer using clustering 512k is not unreasonable, though
maybe inefficient.
Using a 24bit pointer and 512b sectors will net 8gb, adaquate.
The problem (pardon my lack of knowledge of the TI Filesystem) is that
simply having a point of some size is only part of the problem. You also
need to have a descriptor for how many sectors are owned by the file in
question. If the file system is a simple sequential one an additional
two or three bytes are adaquate. Generally though a sequential allocation
scheme is inefficient for random file access. A random file access scheme
means multiple descriptors for each block (assuming multipe scetor
granularty). Obviously in that case you can really consume space in the
directory with a desicriptor per block. This leads to FAT or ALLOCATION
style of file systesm (dos and cpm respectively) or something like unix
uses. I'm suggesting that more bits extend greater addressing but impose
other impacts not mentioned.
Allison
At 08:06 PM 1/13/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Now, though, it appears that most sets contain special parts for whatever
>model that set is supposed to build, parts that aren't much use for
>anything else. Seems not to encourage imagination anything like as much.
Depends on what sets you buy. You can buy sets that build one specific
model (though you can of course do whatever you want) or you can buy the
tubs of 1000 pieces for $20. I have been known to buy specific models to
get some odd part that I thought was cool, but generally I'll take the
general purpose models.
Obcc: Yes, you can build computers and calculators from Lego. Any reason
why you couldn't replicate a Digi-Comp with Lego?
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
<<< I've come across enough machines that use 6-bit characters internally..
<
< 6 Bit ? thats new - I never have seen a 6 Bit byte computer - I
< know 6 Bit only from some serial line encodings.
Most common one was the PDP8.
Allison
>I agree that what you propose is a good thing for a kid to have,
>but it's a completely different topic - using the computer as a
>general purpose learning tool, or playing on a computer. What
>we were talking about was playing *with* a computer.
>
>|For programming, I would recommend BASIC, TO START WITH, followed by an
>|introduction to C and assembly as soon as basic principles are understood.
>
>I've yet to see a BASIC that runs on top of an OS that's as
>easy to get into and provides direct feedback as well as a
>graphical BASIC DOS.
Apparently you have not tried Visual Basic...
>
>|Once the kid has gotten thoroughly into it, THEN maybe a birthday present
>|of a set of Linux disks?
>
>Hah. My kids started on Linux, at about 8 and 10. Yeah, I
>intend to (God help me) get a Win or Mac system soon, but
>only because there are too many things not yet available on
>Linux.
>
>But Linux is just fine as a newbie OS for a kid.
At what level are you talking? I have not seen any sofware for kids (like
the knowledge adventure or humongous entertainment series) that would run on
Linux. It is hard to get a kid used to play with windows for 6 years and
tell him that it is crap and the one where you have to type long commands is
a lot better.
>
>-Miles
>
Cameron Kaiser said...
|
|Eight years old and learning PDP-8 assembler? What does she do on the
|weekends, solve differential equations?!? :-)
Actually, any reasonably intelligent 8 y/o who is interested,
and who has learned to enjoy learning, is capable some level
of assembler programming. It's amazing what society and the
schools can do to destroy a young mind.
-Miles
At 06:23 PM 1/13/99 +1, you wrote:
>> The younger the kid, the more they need graphics capability. Teenagers
>> don't really need it, no matter how much they beg for it (they just want to
>> visit whitehouse.com).
>
>I found it just the other way - as younger they are as less
>exact high res and high reality visions they need. An 5 year
Not high quality graphics, just graphics. a 3 year old, for example, who
has yet to learn to read (not Ward, of course 8^), would find a MS-DOS
based computer, for example, pretty useless. Simply because the
combinations of letters has no significance to the kid. Give the kid a
basic mac, however, and the kid can see a picture of the Rabbit from Reader
Rabbit and understand that clicking on it will start the Reader Rabbit
program.
Meanwhile, a 14 year old may not be *happy* with an MS-DOS based XT/AT, but
they can make use of it, writing papers, calling BBSes/internet shell
accounts, writing programs. As I said, your teenager may tell you how much
they need that T-1 and SVGA to write their book report, but they really
just want to access porno web sites. (I speak from experience, having been
a teenager once.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
Is there still a source for paper tape and punch cards (new or old)?
Is there also a source for old mechanical ttys? I'd love to get one
connected to one of my Linux boxes!
Arfon
Do you know that you ca structure you BASIC code also? I haven't used a GOTO
statement in BASIC since I learned C.
>> The main reason that *I* am aware of with people being down on BASIC is
that
>> it, in a sense, encourages writing spagetti code (probably with the
>> inappropriate use of the GOTO statement.)
>
>Actually, that too is a learning experience. You only build one spaghetti
>program that you'd like to maintain before you learn the error of your
ways.
>
>--
>Jim Strickland
>jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
At 02:34 PM 1/12/99 -0800, you wrote:
>I think that an 8 year old would be best off with a machine with CD-ROM
>capability. And a good size stack of reference disks, including
>Encyclopedia Brittanica, atlases, and several collections of literature.
Uh-oh, here goes Uncle Roger again...
There are a lot of *really* good educational programs out there nowadays.
Davidson, Learning Company, Br0derbund are some good names. They can
really help kids get ahead. My niece is already reading at 4yo thanks to
Interactive Reading Journey. (Not a record by any stretch, but no one is
really pushing her.)
I could go on for hours, but I won't...
>There should also be WWW access, preferably with at least minimal
>graphics capability.
The younger the kid, the more they need graphics capability. Teenagers
don't really need it, no matter how much they beg for it (they just want to
visit whitehouse.com).
>In the PC world, that would call for 386SX with VGA video, and DOS 3.10
Or a Mac IIci, both of which will require access to older software.
Pentium or PowerPC is required for much of the good stuff you see at places
like ChumpUSA.
Used parts can be put together into a low-end/slow pentium for probably a
lot less than $500, but that's still more than $10 + shipping. And for a
dedicated task like learning a bit of programming, playing with some
graphics, and a few games, a C64/Atari 800/Apple II would be fine.
Also, BASIC, as maligned as it is, is useful for learning; I applied my
BASIC experience to make learning PERL a snap. (And BASIC is very useful
in its own right.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 07:01 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>In fact, as I understand, all that FOR...NEXT and so on are are low-level
>implementations of common usages of GOTO.
High-level -- just as all BASIC/COBOL/C/Etc commands are high-level
representations of many more assembly language commands.
For-next:
Start-Value = 1
End-Value = 99
Increment = 1
Counter = Start-Value
:Start-For
If Counter > End-Value Then
Goto End-For
end-if
do stuff
Counter = Counter + Increment
Goto Start-For
:End-For
In fact there could be times when you would want to do this this way
instead of using a for-next -- as in if you want you increment to change
each time, or if you want to repeat a single iteration until some other
condition is met.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 05:16 PM 1/13/99 -0600, you wrote:
>And parents who read, read, read to their kids from the early days.
>I'm talking day 1, if not in the womb. (almost 8^) We encourage
>everyone we know to do this. We have friends who never got much
Can't agree more -- and yes, even in the womb. Two things I've heard
about: play music through headphones, with the headphones against the
mother's stomach (softly, and classical music, mozart is best) and shine a
flashlight against the mother's stomach and move it around. The first
(supposedly) develops logical thinking ability as well as hearing, the
second eyesight and coordination.
Dunno if it works, but Cassie's folks did the first and she is definitely
musically inclined. (Of course that may be genetic anyway.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 09:13 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Yup... and you can't put margin notes in a CDROM.
Well, with well-written software, you should be able to include linked
notes (virtual post-its) on the hard drive... Even so, I would much rather
carry a laptop with CD and an unlinked file of notes than a shelf full of
paperware.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
I have to side with those who suggest a simple computer for a child with
enough interest to learn assembly. c64, apple2, and so forth would be my
suggestions. MacOS and Windows both are designed to keep you away from the
nitty gritty inside the computer. My understanding is MacOS won't let you
near it at all, and while windows *will* it's grudgingly and at your own peril.
(and there's so much crap in memory that you can munge it's unlikely a novice
will survive.) And as someone pointed out, there's so much to distract from
learning to program with a more modern machine...
By contrast, to do any kind of graphics or sound with a c64, you are interacting
with it on a pretty low level - sprites are an 8 byte by 1 byte (if memory
serves) chunk of memory and to turn a given pixel on, you poked a byte with
that pixel on.
A modern computer is designed to be an appliance, like a toaster, and requires
no more understanding than "put bread in slot, press lever". If the child has
shown an interest about what's inside, giving her a wintel or macos machine
is a disservice. I'd have to even say giving her a linux box to do assembly on
is probably too much. I don't grasp assembly well enough to be sure, but I'd
imagine a multitasking system complicates it somewhat.
On a related topic, does anyone else feel sorry for the kid in the microsoft
commercials who considers himself a computer expert because he has "mastered
many of Microsoft's applications." Heh. In the early 64 years you were
considered a wuss if you *bought* applications instead of writing your own.
Could it be a fiendish plot to reduce competition by making sure no-one but
Microsoft has the skills to program in their environment? :) (just kidding)
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 meo(a)netads.com wrote:
> But you can still fake it. A few, simple standards gone a long way.
In fact, as I understand, all that FOR...NEXT and so on are are low-level
implementations of common usages of GOTO.
----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor(a)bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor
At 06:15 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> This'll probably offend many.
>paintbrush programs for four years before graduating to doom.
Ooh, like doom is so great for kids! 8^)
Actually, if you wait until a kid is 8 or so before introducing them to
computers, you've wasted a lot of their time. 18 months is the recommended
earliest a kid should start with a computer, but if you want to sit them on
your lap while you work before that, I think it's okay.
At 18months, windows versus mac doesn't really matter much; it's the
application software that's important. If you can get Reader
Rabbit/Playroom/Jumpstart for Unix (or CP/M or PDP-8) then go for it.
But to say that a kid should not be introduced to computers until they can
read enough to use unix or can handle a soldering iron is to do a major
disservice to the kid.
For an 8 year old (the original question) who has probably already learned
to read/write/type, and understands running a program, and has used other
computers, a C-64 is a fine machine to muck around with, spill soda on,
play with BASIC on. (Though I'd vote for Atari myself. 8^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
>>But Linux is just fine as a newbie OS for a kid.
>
> At what level are you talking? I have not seen any sofware for kids (like
> the knowledge adventure or humongous entertainment series) that would run
on
> Linux. It is hard to get a kid used to play with windows for 6 years and
> tell him that it is crap and the one where you have to type long commands
is
> a lot better.
At what level? At a "newbie" level, apparently, i.e. not one who has been
using Lusedoze for six years. If I ever marry and have kids, I hope they
won't be too disappointed that I don't allow MS Windows or Intel 80986 (or
whatever) machines in the house :-)
My folks were never into computers or electronics or anything of that
nature. But once the school got a PET (1979), and parents found out that I
spent every break time in the school computer room, regardless of whether I
could book time on the machine, they got me one for my next birthday. (Yes
I still have it).
Some of their house rules I may well implement if I raise a family, though.
Like no TV during the summer holiday. (I'd prefer no TV at all, but one
must compromise occasionally)
Philip.
>> Apparently you have not tried Visual Basic...
>
>How is that as easy as ROM BASIC? You turn the computer, and Visual Basic
>pops up immediately? I've yet to see such a computer (and if I do, I'll
>bash it to pieces with an axe, but that's another story)!.
Yes you can make your computer boot and load Visual Basic right away (you
just have to wait a little longer:) What I meant by mentioning VB is that
you can build a familiar interface very quickly and then add the code
incrementally as you move along. VB takes care of all the extra stuff then
you click on the play button and tada...(as a side note I do not like VB I
just have to use it once in a while)
>
>We're talking about teaching _about_ computers, not teaching _with_
>computers. Granted, Alvin and the Chipmunks software won't run on Linux
>(usually), and M$ Actimates won't work with it either...(echo "Hello,
>World!" > /dev/barney, anyone?) but those things won't help someone who
>wants to learn how a computer works.
>
Before you can really learn about computers you have to have an interest in
it and so far I have not seen anything that could possibly interrest a kid
that runs on Linux. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that MSBlows is THE
solution but it is hard to make it simpler for a non computer litterate
(actually for a kid who can't read it is strongly recommended to have a GUI
but that's another chapter)
If the kid starts asking questions on the under side of the machine then it
is a good idea to switch to a machine that encourages the user to scratch
under the surface.
Francois
At 10:19 AM 1/13/99 -0800, you wrote:
>> I picked up both of these books at the museum in Bozeman, Montana. Listers
>> familiar with it? Funny little place.
>
>I heard those guys were clowns. Any truth to the rumor?
>
>Sellam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>Always being hassled by the man.
>
I'd have to disagree. Other than the oddity of being located in Montana
(not exactly a hub of high-tech industry), I found the Museum well put
together, with an interesting collection. It is small, though, and probably
isn't worth a detour of more than 200 miles.
There were < 10 "big iron" mainframes, < 20 of the usual minis, with a
small collection of micros (20-30) - the latter weren't described in much
detail. The exhibits are arranged more or less chronologically by
technology, starting with mechanical computing devices (Hollerith Census
machines, Comptometers), moving on to electro-mechanical machines, then to
tubes, transistors, and microchips. Many of the machines are arranged in
office environments that replicate what they might have looked like when in
use, and there is some interesting supporting material (advertisements from
the era, etc).
The tour guides are very friendly, and knowledgeable enough to answer
questions from the general public.
It's a good place to introduce kids to many of the technologies and some of
the people involved in the development of computers; most of the people on
this list would probably find it less interesting. Much like computer
collecting, computer museums are still in their infancy, so let's not judge
too harshly.
For the record, the place is The American Computer Museum, 234 East Babcock
St., Bozeman, MT, 59715, tel (406) 587-7545, fax (406) 587-9620. No Web
site or email AFAIK.
And I have no affiliation, professional or personal, with the place.
Cheers,
Mark.
At 06:44 AM 1/13/99 -0800, you wrote:
>But not in most microcomputer BASICs. The Apple II, Atari and C64 all lack
>BEGIN-BEND, WHILE-WEND, block IFs; the 64 doesn't even have ELSE.
While-Wend (and Do While/Do Until) is just a shortcut for using If/Goto:
Do While Flag <> True
do some stuff
If condition then
Set Flag to True
end-if
loop
is the same as
:loop-in
If Flag = True Then
Goto loop-out
end-if
do some stuff
If condition Then
Set Flag to True
end-if
Goto loop-in
:loop-out
Spaghetti code is caused by bad programmers, not bad programming languages.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 01:09 AM 1/13/99 +0000, you wrote:
>> There are a lot of *really* good educational programs out there nowadays.
>> Davidson, Learning Company, Br0derbund are some good names. They can
>> really help kids get ahead. My niece is already reading at 4yo thanks to
>> Interactive Reading Journey. (Not a record by any stretch, but no one is
>> really pushing her.)
>
>Hmmmm... I am convinced that the age a child starts to read, and the
>interest he takes in obtaining information has a lot more to do with the
>parents than with computer programs.
True, but there are several instances where good software can make a lot of
difference. First, many parents don't have training in how to teach a kid
to read, so the software can be a good assistant. For children with a
learning disability, the software can make a huge difference. And even for
the best of parents, getting a kid to read is probably not as much fun as
playing the "games" used in these programs.
In the US, however, a lot of parents don't have the time/energy/interest to
work with their kids (yes, I know it should be a crime) so the software can
take over some of the work, so that the parent's limited
time/energy/interest can be directed towards the topics that a computer
can't handle.
I'm not saying that if a kid doesn't have a G3 Mac with all the software,
they'll end up working at McDonalds their whole life, but it can certainly
help them make the most of their potential without running everyone
concerned ragged.
btw, on a similar (and potentially off-topic) topic, does anyone have a
source for affordable quantities (like 20) SCSI CD-ROM drives? 2x is fine,
4x is more than enough. External would be idea, but internal is acceptable
as well. They're for my girlfriend's classroom. Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
Hey all, I've got a TI Silent 700 printing terminal, not the
portable one, but the big desktop kind of thing. It reminds
me of a DecWriter. But as near as I can tell, a couple boards
are missing from its internal card-cage. So...
1) Does anybody know these things well enough to help me figure
out for sure if it has all of its guts?
2) Is anybody interested in owning all or part of it? Even if
I can get it to work, I'm not terribly interested in keeping
it for myself.
Cheers,
Bill.
All,
The perfect computer for a child?
A NeXT Station, complete with Developer software if you can get it.
NeXTStep Version 3.3 is fine (minor Y2K fixes needed), Openstep 4.2 would
be better. A monochrome slab, 16M RAM/400M Disk ought to be about $200
(Hmm... <surf, surf> Deepspace Technologies
(http://www.deepspacetech.com/)is selling them for $135, but no Developer
software).
There are Spreadsheets, Word Processors, Web Browsers, and
Presentation Packages available for it for *free* (download from a web
site, no-cost license for single users). The Development environment runs
Objective-C, a completely OO system which is carried right through the
entire operating system. Regular C supported too (but I don't think C++ or
Pascal.)
The experience starts with an easy, gui interface and progresses
easily right up to Mach UNIX. Networking is built-in ethernet, with GUI
configuration tools (work great with other NeXTs) and Unix command-line
accessibility if you want more complicated stuff.
Mathematica will run on it, though that costs a *lot* unless you
are lucky enough to get it included on your machine. There's also a fair
amount of music software as well, which I can't really comment on because I
don't know much about it.
It's big, rugged (well, the mouse cable and kb cable are a bit
vulnerable) and impressive.
Best of all, there are not very many games that run on it. :-)
- Mark
On my computer scrounging trip yesterday I found a BIG monitor marked
"Apple Composite 2 page monitor". Anyone know exactly wha that is? I've
never heard of one before. What systems does it work on?
Joe
William Donzelli <william(a)ans.net> wanna know:
> > Not much to tell yet. It's a YMP-EL/98, the 8-cpu version of the
> > air-cooled "baby's first Cray" series.
>
> Not only air-cooled, but more or less plug-into-the-wall as well. I envy
> you.
Yeah - it appears to just need 220 and enough room HVAC. A raised floor
isn't even a requirement, though we're dying to put one in. Our biggest
concern is simply the footprint, as our machine room has pretty much run
out of space. We added a freebie sparcserver 690 on Saturday, and that's
about hogged out the remaining space we were figuring on devoting to the
Cray.
> > At the moment, we know of two other machines of the same family
> > that are now in private hands.
>
> I have had absolutely no luck in getting a supercomputer, for myself or
> for RCS/RI. Currently I am bothering people about a MasPar and an ETA, but
> both have hit brick walls. I suppose it helps to be in the right place at
> the right time. How did you manage?
Never seen a MasPar - would like to. The ETA would be a sweet find -
which model? I stole a nameplate off of one about ten years ago; those
machines are a solid piece of super history. Of course, in "Die Hard"
you get to see a whole floor of CDC machines, including an ETA-10, get
blown up _real_good_.
As far as "managing", I really don't want to say yet. Any further
comments before it's in our machine room would be premature. And the
people handing it over may very well not want us to disclose the source.
They've told us that there may be more machines in the future, as they're
decommissioned, and probably won't want the risk of people pestering them.
...
Courtesy Bruce Lane (kyrrin(a)my-dejanews.com), who turned me on to the list:
> Can someone please get in touch with this guy? He asks a most
> interesting question.
"Bill Mohler" <bill(a)cs.oberlin.edu>
> Subject: Help: Paper tape reader to PC
> Any advice on how to attach a paper tape reader to an IBM compatible
> computer? How about making the PC emulate a tape reader?
Anyone been in touch with this chap yet? I expected someone to post
a mention of the interface in question.
ObClassicBit: As they say, one of the jobs "on the things-to-do list" is
bringing up the front panel imsai with the asr-33 for the express purpose
of loading up a recently-acquired micro$oft 8K basis paper tape. Just out
of curiosity, how rare is this software? Anyone else on the list got it?
Anyone else want a copy if/when I get around to it? Hey, Bill! I'm
a-leggin' yer code! Come 'n' git me!
...
"John R. Keys Jr." <jrkeys(a)concentric.net> pitched:
> Another one that I really like is Stan Veit's History of The Personal
> Computer it's a great reference source with photos so that you know what to
> look for. He writes a little history about each machine. It's still only $3
> from the guy on ebay. John
This is WELL worth it. I met Stan at his store in NYC back 79; very nice
chap. His book is a good write from someone who was there.
On the other hand...
> > Haddock's book is A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket
> > Calculators,
> > subtitled A Historical, Rarity, and Value Guide, by Dr. Thomas F. Haddock,
> > Books Americana, Florence, Alabama, 1993. ISBN 0-89689-098-8.
is a REAL piece of shit. This guy doesn't know anything, and the book
looks like it was assembled with a photocopier, a stack of old Byte
magazines, and a rubber stamp that says "Value: $50-$75".
I picked up both of these books at the museum in Bozeman, Montana. Listers
familiar with it? Funny little place.
...
>Hey, Chuck. Do you happen to remember approximately when that Shannon
>article appeared? Berkeley had many logic toys and robots, including a
Ok - don't have the Scientific Earthling article that a similar
project appeared in, but found in an IEEE book "C.E. Shannon:
Collected Papers" one called "Presentation of a Maze-Solving
Machine" - from "Transactions 8th Cybernetics Conference,
Josiah Macy Jr. Foundation, 1952".
Is a thick and chewy book. Also, get this - in the paper on
"Programming a computer for Playing Chess" (National IRE
Conference, March 9, 1949), he referances the game of Nim,
and that a machine able to play a perfect game has been
constructed - Condon, Tawney and Derr, U.S. Patent 2,215,544.
The "Nimotron" based on this patent was built and exhibited
by Westinghouse at the 1938 New York World's Fair.
Chuck
cswiger(a)widomaker.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Merchberger <zmerch(a)30below.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 9:30 PM
Subject: Re: Tandy 600 acting screwy
>My 600 started doing this as well... but without the NiCd's in it at all.
>Methinks the nicads are necessary for voltage regulation or somesuch...
>
>One question: You mentioned replacing the nicads -- I don't know if this
>makes a difference, but did you use *hi-capacity* nicads??? The original
>nicads in the T600 were 4000mAh - the plain-jane RadioShack D-cell nicads
>are like 1800mAh or so, IIRC.
>
I used the hi-capacity ones. It was all that the local R/S carries as far a
D-cells goes.
>Aim for RS's Hi-Capacity Nicads - 4500mAh - should increase that 11 hour
>(advertised) runtime by over an hour.
>
>Or just order a new Tandy battery pack - for $80.00. :-( Ummm, I don't
>think so!!!
>
>Will let you know when I get mine working (local RS only had 3 batteries...
>:-/ ).
>
ThAnX,
--
-Jason Willgruber
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#: 1730318
<http://members.tripod.com/general_1>
In case anyone needs pictures of various NCR items from 1879 to present,
there is a page at http://www3.ncr.com/product/retail/gallery/ that has
all sorts of pics to include PC's and even a cash register in use in
Malaysia in 1910. Did Malaysia even have an economy then?
By the way, they moved their support files for NCR and AT&T 63XX
machines (setup disks) to the following
site:http://www3.ncr.com/support/pc/pcdesc/ and the pages tied to it.