- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

Help, need a Board ID from Data Systems Design

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I've got a Q-bus board I can't identify, its labelled: < Data Systems Design < 44432-4 < <Its a dual height card with a 26 pin idc connector on the top and two <82S100 chips. I'm guessing it is some sort of parallel interface... Sounds like the interface card for the DSD-880 disks systems. They were RX01/2 floppy and RL02 workalikes though they were fixed disks not carts. Allison

27 years, 4 months

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disassembling a monitor

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

Okay, this is stupid. It should be a simple thing. But, as I always say, better safe than dead. So... Can anybody give me pointers on disassembling an IBM 5151 monitor? I rescued one from a dumpster, but it seems to have something metallic-sounding loose inside. Since it sounds like metal (and not glass, for instance), I want to remove it (or properly attach it wherever it belongs) before powering up. I can imagine all sorts of bad things that a loose bit of metal could do inside a monitor with the power on. I know enough to avoid the high voltages once I get inside, but would much prefer to get inside without breaking the CRT's neck. The enclosure is made of two parts; the front that fits around the face of the CRT and the front half of the bottom form one piece; the remainder is the second. When I set the thing on its face and remove all screws in the second piece, the front half of the bottom flexes inward under the weight of whatever is attached to it. It does this enough to worry me - any attached innards must be getting closer to the CRT's neck when that happens. Help? Thanks in advance. Bill.

27 years, 4 months

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AMSOFT on DISK

by jim＠calico.litterbox.com

*nod* Ours were well into the million pages throughput. This was a college housing department, and we were running ALLIN1 desktop on our vaxcluster so an obscene amount of printing fell to our 2 LN03s (one per floor of the admin building). And yes again, the one that overheated DID have a fan motor problem. The fact that they stood up to this constant abuse speaks well of them, to be honest. And actually since I know the vaxcluster is still in place at that site (I ping it from time to time out of curiosity) I shouldn't be surprised if those printers are still there, 6 years later. ><Nice enough laser printers for their day, but they tend to overheat, if ><memory serves. If you get one, make SURE the fan works. Check. I seem ><to recall we had problems with those on a Vax site I worked on once. > >Only if the fans are missing or dead. I was part of that design team and >overheating was never a problem. The most common problem was a printer >designed for an peak use of 5,000 pages a month being used as a line >printer. They get a bit tired and cranky if they werent kept clean and >get over a million pages on them. Inshort they were commonly abused. > >Oh, one note... there are about 5 versions of the printer depeinding on the >logic (ansi, enhanced ansi, postscript, postscript/ansi hybrid, video engine ><part of QPSS package>). > >Oh the launch date is 1984 and production continued through 90-91 (memory >test). > > >Allison

27 years, 4 months

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historical question - paper tape vs. punched cards

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Just a curious question: Which came first, paper tape or punched cards? I'm not concerned about "invention" dates, I'm more interested in "came into very common use" dates. Actually, I'm not concerned about dates either - just which one came into very common use the first. Always wondered - thought people here may have an idea. Jay West

27 years, 4 months

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Weitek array processor and IBM 8" floppy drive: clues wanted

by svs＠ropnet.ru

G'day, 1. Weitek Multibus Array Processor. A two-board set for 16-bit ISA bus. Until recently, resided in an IBM 5170. Part number is 3002-0025-02. On the top board two largest chips are Weitek WTL1066GCD's, "FP data paths / multiport register files". Technical manual and/or software (math library?) would be nice to have :) 2. 8" IBM floppy drive. Visible markings: IBM53 51TD EC 786450 85-W 23 P/N 4240513 Where does this come from? DejaNews gives a clue, but no definite answer. -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru

27 years, 4 months

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AUCTION - Eprom Programmer

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

On Sun, 7 Mar 1999 16:28:52 -0800 (PST) Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> writes: >On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > >> I'm sorry Anthony but I have to object, we already had this >discussion that >> this was not the list to talk about Ebay and now you are turning it >_into_ >> ebay. Couldn't these auctions also be run on the ccauction list that >Doug >> hosts on nut.net ? > >Chuck, I have to object to your objection. > >I think what Anthony is doing is quite admirable. Instead of taking >his >stuff directly to ebay, he's offering it here on the list with a very >fair >auction system. He takes the highest bid by a certain date and sells >the >item for that amount. He doesn't disclose the bids, so there's no >chance >for last minute outbidding, and he keeps the winner's identity >private. > I'll second that. The whole purpose of this group is for hobbyists to help each other. By offering it here first, he's giving opportunity to those of us who normally don't get them . . .. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

27 years, 4 months

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OT? Tek Scopes

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

Visiting a surplus shop today, I found a small herd of Tek Oscilliscopes. Some of them looked pretty old to me. They want real money for them too. Details: Model Mod 1 Mod 2 Cart ----- ----- ----- ----- 564 3C66 2B67 564 3A74 2B67 Y 504 Y 561A 3A72 2B67 5111 5A20N 5B10N 515A Y 549 1a1 Y D11 5A14N 5B10N Y 504 564B 3A9 3B4 Prices were originally $200 for most of them, except the 549, which was $400. Some of them had been marked down to $100. They have some kind of automatic decrease in price based on how long things stay in the store (1% per day?), but most of them have been there only since late February. And I don't know how that effects the ones that were "manually" marked down. I suspect these prices are outlandish. The same place wants $25 for 2400 baud modems. :-) Anyway, the age-based discount may eventually make the prices more reasonable. At least for the scopes, if not the modems. The ones marked "Y" under "Cart" had a "Scope-Mobile" cart with them. But I didn't think to get model numbers from those. Oh, and I can't guarantee that these work. I didn't ask if they would allow me to test them, and at present I don't know enough to be able to test them anyway. I also can't guarantee that they'll still be there when I next visit. Questions: 0. How old are these guys? 1. Are any of these potentially useful for computer work? Can they handle the frequencies used in old machines, say, up to a few MHz? (Judging from their apparent age, I wouldn't hope for much more than that.) 2. Anybody want one? Be aware that in addition to the price tag, I wouldn't expect these guys to be easy or cheap to ship. (At least one time in the past I have had to back out of a deal because I couldn't arrange shipping within cost & safety constraints.) And the carts are probably too big to go through UPS or USPS. Given all that, if you want one, let me know. Cheers, Bill.

27 years, 4 months

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poly-XFER for DEC VT180 or DECmate II

by djenner＠halcyon.com

I got some docs (still shrink wrapped!) for poly-XFER CP/M Comms for the DEC VT-180 or DECmate II running CP/M. You could probably find the disks for this at ftp.update.uu.se? If anyone would like these, let me know. Dave

27 years, 4 months

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Cursor newsletter

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Cursor. That reminds me of that TV show in the early 80s. Wasn't it >called "Automan"? It was this dude who somehow got transmutated with his >computer and was like a digital superhero. His sidekick was a flashing >star called Cursor. It didn't last long. Good memory... yep.. "Automan" - a holographic projection which was called Automan because "He's the world's first truly automatic man." (I'm not going to go there...) Anyway, the actor who played Automan is the one doing the Xyban (Zyban?) ads on TV... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 4 months

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Capacitor xref help please! (TU56)

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

You wrote... >Have you tried a motor repair place? This sounds like a fairly standard >'run capacitor' for an induction motor. Tried several local places no one has it so I was looking through the digikey catalog... >Just out of curiousity, why do you think it's bad? Is it leaking or >something? Motor problems on TU56s are normally caused by the transistors >on the G848 card (or problems on the G847). It was just a guess given the one inch tall electrolyte snake growing out of the top of the can :) Long as I'm in there working on it I was going to replace all four (is this overkill)? Jay

27 years, 4 months

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DECmate III software needed.

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I'm trying to help a friend of mine get his DECmate III running again. Does anyone have any word-processing software for one? Joe

27 years, 4 months

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Computer education

by max82＠surfree.com

Hi folks, Today was the first day of my free networking course at school, at the end of which I will have received a certificate 'n stuff...anyway, the guy was trying to explain layered protocol stacks, and data abstraction. It occured to me that the concepts have no meaning outside the realm of developing the protocols or applications that use these protocols. And it's almost impossible to explain without referring to these realms. The guy was telling us how 'everything in the computer is in binary' but you need additional network layers 'because Word can't understand the binary and needs it to be translated'. At this time, I was thinking about my recent experiences with the PDP-8. I wonder, wouldn't it make everything so much easier if every computer in schools had a PDP-8 emulator on it, and students had to learn to make simple programs in PAL before learning concepts like the OSI 7-layer model, etc? Because, it was obvious that the guy was being forced to avoid saying the word 'function' or 'subroutine' since people didn't know what it meant.... --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)

27 years, 4 months

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Computer education

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<recent experiences with the PDP-8. I wonder, wouldn't it make everything <so much easier if every computer in schools had a PDP-8 emulator on it, For concepts closer to the computer hardware that would eb a good thing. <and students had to learn to make simple programs in PAL before learning <concepts like the OSI 7-layer model, etc? Because, it was obvious that <the guy was being forced to avoid saying the word 'function' or <'subroutine' since people didn't know what it meant.... It's unfortunate that the course was so top heavy with out a foundation to hold it up. FYI: I have a copy of a pair of articles going back to the only MicroSystems (1983) That explains it fairly well in only a handfull of pages and then even provides a workable example wthat did not require rocket science to make useful. However the idea of data encapsulation, abstraction and arrays of data as objects are important concepts that need to be learned between adding two number on a PDP-8 in PAL and the higher level application of 5GL languages and networking. It's the side effect of knowledgeless people prescribing course goals and content. Allison

27 years, 4 months

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The TI 34010

by Jgzabol＠aol.com

In einer eMail vom 06.03.99 22:42:56 MEZ, schreiben Sie: << > How does the 34010 do in handling bitmaps? > > The 34020 (and I believe the 34010 had that as well) deals with that > through > special bit-blit operations, bit-block-transfer and simultaneous > logical/masking > operations. This is much supported by VRAM hardware used at that time; > the VRAM chips have bitblt features built in. The performance was exactly Are you sure about that? Most VRAMs (certainly the ones in use when the 34010 came out) seem to be nothing more than DRAMs with a second address port that transfers one row of data into a shift register. The bitstream from the S/R is fed to the video circuitry. No bit-blit operations. The 34010 has instructions for raster operations (bit-blits) using data anywhere in the address space, and they don't appear to depend on features of the RAMs used. -tony >> There is in fact both: the processor can do it, but at least the VRAMs I looked at have some provisions for (simple) versions of that. What is most important is to use the bit-plane masking facilities inside the VRAMs - at least those generations I looked at, maybe that was later than 34010 times. John

27 years, 4 months

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CPT (was "beaut day")

by guerney＠uq.net.au

-----Original Message----- From: Derek Peschel <dpeschel(a)u.washington.edu> >I'm not an expert on CPT, but I did have one of their dedicated word >processors for a while. (It may have used a Z-80, I forget. It had 3.5" >drives.) Do you know if your model was designed as a general-purpose >computer or as a turnkey word processor? This CPT 8525 has two vertical 8" drives to the right of that portrait monitor. Very heavy also. The 8" disks with it include CP/M and CBasic so it is not a dedicated word processor. Phil

27 years, 4 months

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collectible digital cameras?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Mar 6, 9:22, Larry Groebe wrote: > It occurs to me that one candidate would be the first batch of digital > cameras. > So made the first consumer-level digital camera? Kodak had a hi-end > modified Nikon about 7 years ago, but I'm thinking the Apple QuickTake > 100 is the earliest digital camera I can think of. The earliest I can think of is the Canon Ion camera, about 1989, I think. It used cute little 2.5" disks made by TDK and Sony. They looked like 3.5" microfloppies that had shrunk in the wash :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 4 months

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OT? Tek Scopes

by Jgzabol＠aol.com

In einer eMail vom 07.03.99 04:20:03 MEZ, schreiben Sie: << Visiting a surplus shop today, I found a small herd of Tek Oscilliscopes. Some of them looked pretty old to me. They want real money for them too. Details: Model Mod 1 Mod 2 Cart ----- ----- ----- ----- 564 3C66 2B67 1968 3C66 _NOT_ general purpose !!! 564 3A74 2B67 Y 1968 2 MHz four-channel storage 504 Y 1971 450 kHz single channel 561A 3A72 2B67 1961 650 kHz dual channel 5111 5A20N 5B10N too new for my docs 515A Y 1971 15 MHz single channel 549 1a1 Y 1973 30 MHz dual trace storage D11 5A14N 5B10N Y too new 504 see above 564B 3A9 3B4 1968 unknown amplifier Prices were originally $200 for most of them, except the 549, which was $400. Some of them had been marked down to $100. They have some kind of automatic decrease in price based on how long things stay in the store (1% per day?), but most of them have been there only since late February. And I don't know how that effects the ones that were "manually" marked down. I suspect these prices are outlandish. The same place wants $25 for 2400 baud modems. :-) Anyway, the age-based discount may eventually make the prices more reasonable. At least for the scopes, if not the modems. The ones marked "Y" under "Cart" had a "Scope-Mobile" cart with them. But I didn't think to get model numbers from those. Oh, and I can't guarantee that these work. I didn't ask if they would allow me to test them, and at present I don't know enough to be able to test them anyway. I also can't guarantee that they'll still be there when I next visit. Questions: 0. How old are these guys? --- see above 1. Are any of these potentially useful for computer work? Can they handle the frequencies used in old machines, say, up to a few MHz? (Judging from their apparent age, I wouldn't hope for much more than that.) 2. Anybody want one? Be aware that in addition to the price tag, I wouldn't expect these guys to be easy or cheap to ship. (At least one time in the past I have had to back out of a deal because I couldn't arrange shipping within cost & safety constraints.) And the carts are probably too big to go through UPS or USPS. Given all that, if you want one, let me know. Cheers, Bill. >> 1. There is a book about old Tek scopes available at www.tubesandmore.com Above info is from that book. 2. Today, you can still borrow microfiche from Tek of ANYTHING they ever produced !! I did so for my 549 which is my main scope. 3. Here in the Munich area you find these things in the fleamarket newspapers and web pages; typically they sell in the DM 150.- to 450.- range. Right now there is a pretty nice 551 for sale since several weeks, 27 MHz, TRUE dual trace (i.e., two electron guns), you could probably get it for between DM 100,- and DM 200,-, but shipping of course would be PROHIBITIVELY expensive. If I did not already have three Teks, I would get it. These prices INCLUDE checking it out before you buy !! Regards John G. Zabolitzky

27 years, 4 months

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Saturday Auction fun and finds

by mikeford＠netwiz.net

Sorry to repeat this, but I forgot to change the subject and didn't want to have start some thread of confusion (which it will I am sure anyway, but sorry). Once about every three weeks a place in Huntington Beach Ca has an auction of computers, its not what it once was, but it still is entertaining. Main course today was 1150 old 486 computers along with 500 other lots. I didn't buy any of the 486's (just 10 macs), but I did see and buy some interesting items. Epson HX-20, circa 1983 portable computer with a microcassette for storage and a builtin printer. This one has a expansion unit bolted to the side, and a nice slim plastic case the whole thing fits into. It must have some internal NiCads, but I haven't opened it up, and it didn't come with a AC adapter (but 6 vdc isn't too tough). Looks extremely clean, including all the rubber parts, like it spent much of the last 16 years in its case. Skiwriter word processing software is builtin, so is basic, but the only manual is for the former. Display is LCD 120x32, or 20 characters and 4 lines. Printer I suspect matches that. Almost forgot, one of its main features are the ports, serial and full RS232 via 1/2 inch diameter round connectors on the back. Texas Instruments silent 700 terminal. Looks like a typewriter, with a thermal printer and a acoustic coupler on the back. I toted one of these around for a couple years in the earlier 80s with a pager, and I remember a plastic suitcase, but this one is open. A&J Micro Drive, date on the back is 12/6/85, this is some sort of tape drive. The unit is small 1.5 x 3 x 5, runs on 4 internal AA batteries, and has a cable with a DB25 shell and 6 pins in it. Tape sticks in the front, slightly narrower than a audio cassette, and a lot thinner. Front reads SYSTEM 100, A:, and a active/low battery light. Things I didn't buy (and if somebodys wants requires quick action) A pair of Digital LN03 laser printers Xerox (I think) 645 S Memorywriter Three boxes of circa 1988 full and half height drives, most with some sort of card edge connection, others look very much SCSI. The HX-20 looks too neat to part with, but if someone wants the 700 or weird little drive I am open to it. The latter three big heavy items I am willing to facilitate, but not get in the middle of.

27 years, 4 months

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OT? Tek Scopes

by edick＠idcomm.com

To be down around $125, they've got to be in really sorry shape. I've seen junkers sold for that. The 465B might be lower in price than its older cousin the 465(A) because it's reputed to trigger less accurately than the (A) as a result of the compromises made in that model update. I've never seen proof of this, however. The 465's I've seen seem to sell around $400. If they're in need of work, which would make them go cheaper, they don't sell . . . Dick ---------- > From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: OT? Tek Scopes > Date: Saturday, March 06, 1999 10:36 PM > > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > I don't suppose there were any books for a "Tek 465B" scope? I picked one > > up a few months ago at the last CP/M swap meet, but don't have any doc's. > > What are working 465s going for now? I have heard prices anywhere from $125 > to $400 without probes.

27 years, 4 months

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HP 150 was Re: old hp printer available, and...

by dogas＠leading.net

-----Original Message----- From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> > I have a bunch of HP 150 stuff. Do you have a copy of the Sydex program >that lets you read and write HP 150 disks on the PC? If so, I can E-mail >you the DOS and some other programs Cool Joe, I am sans Sydex.... shoot it over! - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 4 months

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OT? Tek Scopes

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

Bill: FWIW The only to get them to come up with a realistic price is wait until after 90 days but before 120 days. Then talk to Van and make him an offer. I have dealt with them for several years. He has learned that my offers are realistic and 95% of the time takes them. He has dumpstered a lot that I had made offers on and could not get back in before 120 days. The magic # there is 120 days (the last week or the beginning of the first week of the month) That is when the dumpster gets very full. At the old location Van used to let me dumpster dive. I have not asked since they moved. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Bill Yakowenko <yakowenk(a)cs.unc.edu> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, March 06, 1999 10:25 PM Subject: OT? Tek Scopes >Visiting a surplus shop today, I found a small herd of Tek Oscilliscopes. Some >of them looked pretty old to me. They want real money for them too. Details: > > Model Mod 1 Mod 2 Cart > ----- ----- ----- ----- > 564 3C66 2B67 > 564 3A74 2B67 Y > 504 Y > 561A 3A72 2B67 > 5111 5A20N 5B10N > 515A Y > 549 1a1 Y > D11 5A14N 5B10N Y > 504 > 564B 3A9 3B4 > >Prices were originally $200 for most of them, except the 549, which was $400. >Some of them had been marked down to $100. They have some kind of automatic >decrease in price based on how long things stay in the store (1% per day?), >but most of them have been there only since late February. And I don't know >how that effects the ones that were "manually" marked down. > >I suspect these prices are outlandish. The same place wants $25 for 2400 >baud modems. :-) Anyway, the age-based discount may eventually make the >prices more reasonable. At least for the scopes, if not the modems. > >The ones marked "Y" under "Cart" had a "Scope-Mobile" cart with them. But I >didn't think to get model numbers from those. > >Oh, and I can't guarantee that these work. I didn't ask if they would allow >me to test them, and at present I don't know enough to be able to test them >anyway. I also can't guarantee that they'll still be there when I next visit. > >Questions: > >0. How old are these guys? > >1. Are any of these potentially useful for computer work? Can they handle the > frequencies used in old machines, say, up to a few MHz? (Judging from their > apparent age, I wouldn't hope for much more than that.) > >2. Anybody want one? Be aware that in addition to the price tag, I wouldn't > expect these guys to be easy or cheap to ship. (At least one time in the > past I have had to back out of a deal because I couldn't arrange shipping > within cost & safety constraints.) And the carts are probably too big to > go through UPS or USPS. Given all that, if you want one, let me know. > > Cheers, > Bill. >

27 years, 4 months

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printer ribbons

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

I normally pass by printer ribbons, but these are strange, so I nabbed 'em. The ribbons are 1" wide, on spools with an inside diameter of 1.75" and an outside diameter of 4" (all approximate). I have about ten of them. Anybody have any idea what they might belong to? Anybody want them? Cheers, Bill.

27 years, 4 months

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old hp printer available, and...

by dogas＠leading.net

I just picked up a nice little HP 150 (series 100) and the 9121 diskdrive and the 82906A printer. I dont have any software for this machine. Can someone help me out. That someone can have the right of first refusal on the 82906A printer. If there passed, anyone can have it for the cost of shipping. And... Anyone enjoy *old* mechanical adding machines? I've got a Felt & Tarrant Mfg. Comptometer (20's ??) that looks and works great t (well, the 10th column has some problems) that I would consider putting on the trading block. - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 4 months

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The TI 34010

by rmeena01＠utopia.poly.edu

The Atari Transputer Workstation (ATW) is an example of a computer that doesn't use a host. It is build upon a T800 transputer processor and runs the Helios Operating System. Another example is XTM from Cogent Research (does anyone have a picture and/or docs for this machine) which ran Linda and NeWS-based X-Windows system. It was also powered by a transputer without a host. The transputer only uses the host for I/O and for downloading the initial program. As Tony said, you can also boot from ROM and use different types of TRAMS to handle I/O without a host. For info on the ATW, I suggest you check out http://columbia.digiweb.com/kiffer/ATW/. For general info on transputers, you can see my webpage at http://skyscraper.fortunecity.com/ppp/533/. Cheers, Ram

27 years, 4 months

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The TI 34010

by rmeena01＠utopia.poly.edu

If you need datasheets and info on transputers, then check out my webpage. I love transputers and I devote my entire webpage to it. I maintain a huge collection of programs, documents, specs, and links on transputers. The URL is http://skyscraper.fortunecity.com/ppp/533/ Ram -----Original Message----- From: Derek Peschel [SMTP:dpeschel@u.washington.edu] Sent: Saturday, March 06, 1999 8:49 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: The TI 34010 Tony Duell wrote: [transputers generally rely on a host] > (1) is not so much of a problem. The reason most transputer systems have > a 'host' is that you can boot a transputer over one of its links without > having any user-written boot code on the transputer. This means it's easy > to develop for (no possibility of your (firmware) bootstrap having bugs > in it), etc. But you can equally boot a transputer from external ROM in > its own memory space if you want to. And hook a terminal up over an RS232 > port (the transputer's bus is similar to just about every other bus > you're likely to see, so you can have RS232 chips and SCSI chips, and > whatever, mapped into the transputer's address space). So graphics chips are a good possibility. *drool* RS232 is fine but it's not very flashy. :) > In fact one of the first INMOS transputer boards - the B001 - had a > transputer + RAM + RS232 port + ROM on it. It didn't expect a transputer > link to the host. This may be a good time to ask if there's an exhaustive list of part numbers and specifications for the various INMOS chips? I've seen lists (in a couple of mass-market books about the transputer) but I suspect they're not complete. I've never seen the actual data books. > Problem (3) is more serious - the fact that most (all?) of the transputer > chips are no longer in production. I guess that IS a problem. Do they show up on the surplus market? > > them; Sketchpad relied on them and Evans & Sutherland continued the trend. > > (I'd love to play with some of their machines!) > > Does anyone know anything about the PS/390 display from E&S? Not me. There's some sort of E&S display at the Computer Museum History Center but I don't know the model number. -- Derek

27 years, 4 months

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No subject

by terryf＠intersurf.com

Sorry Folks, My earlier message was about a DG MV/2000 DC (Data General). I've never claimed typing as a skill :-) Terry terryf(a)intersurf.com

27 years, 4 months

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The TI 34010

by Jgzabol＠aol.com

The TI 34020 is the (principally similar) successor to the 34010, and I have designed in my company our basic bread-and-butter product of that time around that some 7 years ago. This is machine vision, i.e. digital image processing. I do not think it is advisable to emulate anything. If you want to build the Perfect Computer (tm) I would suggest to use Linux as operating system, and write your own driver for whatever display hardware you see fit. The TI 340x0 family is best viewed as a totally general microprocessor, which happens to have a few special gadgets for image / graphics processing. There is nothing you could not do in principle by using any other microprocessor, but some things - in particular drawing graphics - will just be significantly faster on the TI 340x0. The basic thing to know is that in those days people were most concerned about putting graphics display lists on the screen, that is you have a list of triangles, lines, circles, and whatnot, and the hardware primitives (really microcode of course) on the TI 340x0 allow you to do that pretty efficiently. That in other word means, that _ON_ _THE_ _APPLICATION_ _LEVEL_ you must be prepared to hand DISPLAY LISTS over to the graphcis processor; in those times, that was done by people like AutoCad, e.g. John G. Zabolitzky

27 years, 4 months

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by terryf＠intersurf.com

Hi Folks I picked up a DB MV/200 DC and the micro to load it. The problem being, I'm not sure how to hook it all back together. Anyone got any ideas or know where I can find info on the beast? The machine is ported for 48 RS232 devices, but I'm not too sure what its good for. Thanks Terry terryf(a)intersurf.com

27 years, 4 months

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Space shuttle computers

by edick＠idcomm.com

I don't know what all this stuff means, but NASA paid Martin Marietta, where I worked back in those days, a LOT of dough, and provided documentation labeled Honeywell and showing pictures, though they were not relevant, of a model 516 computer. I spent six months or more poring over schematics, struggling to keep my eyes open, and making note of any potential race conditions, running logic simulations, etc, just to document all the potential single-point failure modes and their potential effect. We found several conditions which seemed to be "bugs" in the system, capable of creating catastrophic failures resulting in loss of lives and billions of dollars' worth of equipment, but those were "ground-ruled-out," meaning that, for example, a power supply failure in the mode wherein it drifts completely out of regulation, is a "normal" operating circumstance and need not be considered . . . but, I digress . . . The fact is, dladies and gentlemen, that the proposition of the time was that the engine controllers were Honeywell 516's, whatever that means. There was talk of installing a 68000-based computer in their place because semiconductor memories were faster, and a system of that type was superior for many reasons, not the least of which was modern read-only memories would allow much better testing. The plated-wire memories in use on the Challenger engine controllers allowed fault conditions which were not detected to be inherited from a previous mission, which risks went completely away with the newer design. It's not hard to imagine that such an upgrade would save on power and weight, as well as providing much more testability. It should also be enough faster to improve the system considerably. Dick ---------- > From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Space shuttle computers > Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 12:17 PM > > (Just reaching the Internet/Shuttle thread :) > > > The best information I have suggests that the Space Shuttle does not > > use the Honeywell DDP-516 in any capacity, and that engine control is performed > > by the some of the IOP processors that are part of the IBM AP-101S > > computers. The entire AP-101S, including both the GPC and IOP, occupies > > about 0.025 cubic meters, masses about 30 Kg, and consumes about 550 W. > > A DDP-516 occupies about 2.5 cubic meters, masses about 250 Kg, and consumes > > over 1000 W. > > AFAIK the first generation of rocket control computers > (thrust, angle, etc.) had HDC-601 processors (with plate > wire core mem), And if I'm not completly wrong, the HDC-601 > is a DDP-516 compatible system. I don't know if the shuttle > engines have been equipped with them, since the actual > controlers are (since the mid 80s) are based on 68.000 > processors. > > And for the AF-101, I always belived the last core mem unit > was named AF-101F not B, as mentioned in another message. In > fact, I love the idea of using a /370s design CPU - It's just > the best OPcode design ever :) > > BTW, does anybody know if a new design is planed ? > > Gruss > H. > > -- > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK

27 years, 4 months

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collectible digital cameras?

by manney＠hmcltd.net

> And are there other categories of products that might become future > collectibles? First mouse? Oddball mice? First hard drive? Seminal software, of course.

27 years, 4 months

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The TI 34010

by Jgzabol＠aol.com

In einer eMail vom 06.03.99 10:25:15 MEZ, schreibt Derek: << > The TI 34020 is the (principally similar) successor to the 34010, and I have > designed in my company our basic bread-and-butter product of that time > around that some 7 years ago. This is machine vision, i.e. digital image > processing. I've read (I forget where -- maybe Micro Cornucopia) that the 34020 is basically the same as the 34010, except that it works with larger amounts of data at the same time. Were there any instruction-set changes? I really cannot tell, I do not recall the 34010 and do not hace any docs about it, though I do have everything about 34020. > I do not think it is advisable to emulate anything. If you want to build the > Perfect Computer (tm) I would suggest to use Linux as operating system, and > write your own driver for whatever display hardware you see fit. :) Well, the number of games on the PC is a very seductive thing. Then, 340x0 will not help you at all. I think Linux is very good overall. I plan on installing it on my Macintosh as soon as the quarter (school) is over. But there are some other interesting OSs too, and many of them are even relevant to the list. I've heard good things about RSX-11M, RT-11, the various TRS-80 OSs, FLEX, OS-9, SK*DOS, and others. There was also a competitor to CP/M which has been praised (possibly by Allison) because it provided some important services that CP/M didn't. Unfortunately I forget if it was by Northstar, Cromenco, or Ohio Scientific. Admittedly, many of those are simpler than UNIX. But a few are real-time, which UNIX is not. Besides, almost any design is interesting in some way. I also have visions of putting together a Transputer-based system and somehow creating vast amounts of computer power out of thin air. :) From my reading, it seems there are two main drawbacks: 1) Generally, the Transputer depends on a host. 2) Parallel processors are very powerful but they won't solve every problem equally well, and they present some very subtle and nasty traps to the student or programmer. Maybe it's time for Tony to come back into this thread, since he seems to be the Transputer expert. I have done quite some work on parallel systems; the efficiency and ease of programming depends _TRMENDOUSLY_ on the problem you are looking at; some (like Monte-Carlo simulation) just fit perfectly well, others (like running canned software) not at all. Of course, it will be mandatory for high-performance computing in the future, in fact is already today, to go parallel; in all cases I know at tremendous work on the algorithm level parallelization. My personal preference is in shared-memory parallel processing; the transputers are message-passing parallelism, which I personally do not find very useful. But that depends of course on the problems and algorithms I am interested in. > faster on the TI 340x0. The basic thing to know is that in those days people > were most concerned about putting graphics display lists on the screen, > that is you have a list of triangles, lines, circles, and whatnot, and the > hardware primitives (really microcode of course) on the TI 340x0 allow you > to do that pretty efficiently. I understand display lists pretty well. Many vector-graphics machines used them; Sketchpad relied on them and Evans & Sutherland continued the trend. (I'd love to play with some of their machines!) Also the Atari 8-bit machines had a limited form, and you could say the Amiga has them as well. This kind of dipslay list relates to memory layout and interpretation, rather than defining objects in memory. But it still makes certain tasks absurdly easy, instead of very time-consuming. > That in other word means, that _ON_ _THE_ _APPLICATION_ _LEVEL_ > you must be prepared to hand DISPLAY LISTS over to the graphcis processor; > in those times, that was done by people like AutoCad, e.g. How does the 34010 do in handling bitmaps? The 34020 (and I believe the 34010 had that as well) deals with that through special bit-blit operations, bit-block-transfer and simultaneous logical/masking operations. This is much supported by VRAM hardware used at that time; the VRAM chips have bitblt features built in. The performance was exactly equal to the VRAM theoretical max throughput, i.e. the TI processor made the best possible use of available memory technology. -- Derek >> John.

27 years, 4 months

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The TI 34010

by emu＠ecubics.com

Hi, ---------- > From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: The TI 34010 > Date: Saturday, March 06, 1999 3:48 PM > > > There are two basic types of multi processor processing, SIMD (Single > > Instruction, Multiple Data) and MIMD (Multiple Instruction, Multiple Data). I guess there are three: SIMD, MIMD & shared memory, MIMD distributed memory. (UMA & NUMA) > No, transputers are certainly MIMD. > > A transputer chip contains a complete CPU, possibly an FPU, a small > amount of RAM, and 4 high-speed serial links. You can actually ignore the > links if you want to, and use it as a simple CPU (I can't think why you'd > _want_ to do this, but you can) We did it for a laser printer. The transputer was doing the emulations,BitBlt,graphics, had the "big" memory & output shift register. Got the program downloaded from a NEC V25, which controlled the centronics & V24. Was very easy to develope, because: 1.) the transputer supported DRAM directly 2.) debugging was easy, because you could download the programs via link 3.) pin compatible versions with/without FPU (FPU was used only for postscript) 4.) Lots of application notes & support from INMOS at this time. Just my .0002 cents cheers, emanuel

27 years, 4 months

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The TI 34010

by emu＠ecubics.com

Hi, ---------- > From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: The TI 34010 > Date: Saturday, March 06, 1999 1:11 PM > I have the TMS34010 data sheet here, but what we really need is the user > manual. The data sheet has the pinouts, timing diagrams, etc in it - > hardware info. It appears that programming info was mostly in the user > manual, though. The tms34020 was faster, new instructions, bigger address & data. You could even attach a FP unit to it. > > How does the 34010 do in handling bitmaps? > Are you sure about that? Most VRAMs (certainly the ones in use when the > 34010 came out) seem to be nothing more than DRAMs with a second address > port that transfers one row of data into a shift register. The bitstream > from the S/R is fed to the video circuitry. No bit-blit operations. The second generation had something like mask/logical operations. Comes out with the tms34010. I should have the application notes somewhere :-(( cheers, emanuel

27 years, 4 months

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collectible digital cameras?

by lgroebe＠insidermarketing.com

Having just returned from another depressing First Saturday trip - loads of PC clones and scanners, one nut selling a core memory board for $1000 - and oh yes, a Timex 1500 I bought for $3, I find myself wondering what possible post-Windows3-era stuff can be/will be possibly considered collectible some day. It occurs to me that one candidate would be the first batch of digital cameras. So made the first consumer-level digital camera? Kodak had a hi-end modified Nikon about 7 years ago, but I'm thinking the Apple QuickTake 100 is the earliest digital camera I can think of. And are there other categories of products that might become future collectibles? --Larry

27 years, 4 months

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Jumpers for Maxtor XT-8760 ESDI disk?

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

Does anyone have the jumper configuration for this drive? --Chuck

27 years, 4 months

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IBM mainframes

by Jgzabol＠aol.com

In einer eMail vom 28.02.99 17:56:37 MEZ, schreiben Sie: << I hope you are not thinking about those 3380s and 3390s on eBay right now - $500 a piece?!!?!?!! William Donzelli william(a)ans.net >> I did, but transport is too expensive. I thought about building a controller, and adding these boxes (about 2 cubic meters each) to a PC in opposite movement to current hard disk evolution. So I will need to wait until some nice 14" drives come around. Some years ago, I indeed DID build a controller for some CDC 14" drives, to add onto a MC 6800 system (6800, NOT 68000 !!). That is not too difficult, since the drives usually contain already some hardware to take care of the servo functions, which is the most critical part, and of course write drivers/read amplifiers. Regards John G. Zabolitzky

27 years, 4 months

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Jumpers for Maxtor XT-8760 ESDI disk?

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

The PCB part no on mine is 1014520F >On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > >> Does anyone have the jumper configuration for this drive? >> --Chuck > >I have it, Chuck, but the problem is that some of it varies with the >PCB part number. Is there any area in particular that you are looking >for, or can you provide the PCB p/n? > - don > >

27 years, 4 months

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IBM mainframes

by Jgzabol＠aol.com

In einer eMail vom 06.03.99 02:23:57 MEZ, schreiben Sie: << On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, William Donzelli wrote: >3380s are hitting the junkyards in record numbers now, so getting one for >free is an easier option! What's a 3380 like? --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) >> A 3380 or 3390 is about 3 x 4 x 6 foot, 1000 pounds, and from few hundred MByte to 10 GByte or so. Just a nice contrast to today's 10 GByte disk drives !! Thanks for the junkyard advice, I have so far spent much too little time on that angle here in Germany ! John G. Zabolitzky

27 years, 4 months

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Jumpers for Maxtor XT-8760 ESDI disk?

by edick＠idcomm.com

I've got one though it's not been used for a while. bear with me and I'll get you a list of jumpers. There are quite a few, though. Dick ---------- > From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Jumpers for Maxtor XT-8760 ESDI disk? > Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 10:16 PM > > Does anyone have the jumper configuration for this drive? > --Chuck >

27 years, 4 months

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Jumpers for Maxtor XT-8760 ESDI disk?

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

I need these too. >Does anyone have the jumper configuration for this drive? >--Chuck > >

27 years, 4 months

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Mac IIci stuff

by max82＠surfree.com

Hi, Is there any demand for Mac IIci manuals and system disks? I may be able to spread a few around. Also, hypercard manuals. Some still shrinkwrapped. We have a pile of complete IIci systems that we don't know what to do with, since they've been recently replaced by Quadras and translucent blue towers. Any place that could make use of them and _not throw them away_? We might donate a couple.... --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)

27 years, 4 months

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IBM mainframes

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 99-03-05 20:23:57 EST, you write: > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, William Donzelli wrote: > >3380s are hitting the junkyards in record numbers now, so getting one for > >free is an easier option! > > What's a 3380 like? > > --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) pretty good size. think closet size. you could almost open the doors and get inside. impressive with belts and motors. certainly made lots of noise in the computer room i worked in 1992. I remember when they got rid of 4 strings of 3380 DASDs and replaced with one hitachi unit that had even more space. Technology improves so quick.

27 years, 4 months

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Transputer Books at Thrift & Used Book Stores

by rmeena01＠utopia.poly.edu

Hi, With the recent announcements of books found at the thrift shop & used book stores, I was wondering if any of you guys can keep an eye out for transputer books. I am currently looking for Helios Parallel Operating System. Thanks. Ram

27 years, 4 months

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Z3 builders?

by Jgzabol＠aol.com

In einer eMail vom 04.03.99 21:09:08, schreibt Dwight: << Hi If I was to build an electronic visual computer, I would use neon lights. All the logic functions can be done with these and the results are visual. NE2's can be bought in bulk for a few cents each. I built a relay combination lock once but I used relays and doides to cut down on the number of contacts needed. Dwight >> You need SOME amplifier element; just logic alone would not do. Neon lights for logic certainly would be possible, but neither convenient nor reliable in my mind, since the difference between ignition voltage and burning voltage is not that big. Diodes are MUCH more convenient AND a lot less expensive than Neon lights. John G. Zabolitzky

27 years, 4 months

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IIc vs IIc+

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

---Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > > > IIc external power supply $10 > > More like $5 > > > IIc matching green monitor $12 > > IIc matching monitor stand $8 > > $8 just for the monitor stand? Both together should only fetch $10. I recently picked up a //c+ (never seen one before), monitor, stand, external Laser 5.25" drive, mouse, two Imagewriter I's, manuals, no disks for $15 at a Hamfest. I considered it a good deal. -ethan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

27 years, 4 months

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Fullerton CA GSA finds

by mikeford＠netwiz.net

I was roaming the local GSA surplus depot and have the following to report; Pallet lot of DEC manuals about 5 feet high, boxes and boxes of ringed binders, and a bunch of paperbacks still in shrinkwrap. labeled $60 System Industries tape drive, like a VAX used in a 5 foot high 4 foot deep very nice cabinet. label $100 Large box of tapes 600 to 6250 bpi, I didn't notice a price. Pallet of 11 items, including old printers, but also a Tandy 1000, and a commodore Amiga, and other stuff I didn't ID. label $250 The routine discount from labeled price is 60 to 70% off, but they want to get rid of these items, so be creative. GSA surplus depot is listed in the phonebook and has a web page. http://www.pd.dgs.ca.gov/materials/surfull.htm

27 years, 4 months

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Reading old SCSI tapes

by JRichardson＠softwright.co.uk

>> What Mark needs is a program that talks to the ASPI DLL to get access to >> the SCSI bus directly. Sure it can be done under Linux or any other UNIX >> like operating system on x86 hardware but when the tape drive is connected >> to a PC running windows and there is no opportunity to install a different >> OS, then this problem arises. Hmm, well presumably a Linux bootdisk can be made that'll have dd on it as well as a SCSI-based kernel and MSDOS filesystem drivers, that way no OS needs to be installed and the tape data can be written to one of the PC's hard disks... of course, this assumes that dd is sufficient to read the tape (as somebody pointed out), and that the PC is using a FAT-based filesystem on its disks, not NTFS. cheers, Jules >

27 years, 4 months

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Uncle Emery's Funniest Computer Songs

by jim＠calico.litterbox.com

Dunno about the build a mainframe from things you have at home song, but Frank Hayes' S100 Bus is a hoot. I find myself singing it every time I get into the guts of a PC, especially the verse: There's a board for the modem line and one for every port and a printer board and a keyboard board and as a last resort for every problem we will add a board that is the cure it's not too damned efficient but it's a mother, that's for sure. Well it's Cheer up me Lads, let your hearts never fuss When you're implementing systems on the S100 bus. -- Jim Strickland jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? -----------------------------------------------------------------------

27 years, 4 months

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Classiccmp digest #698

by mark_k＠iname.com

Hi, Could someone who is subscribed to the digest version of the list please (compress and) email me a copy of digest #698? I lost it due to problems with my mail software. Somewhat on-topic question: can someone recommend a program, to run under MS-DOS (or maybe Windows) that is capable of reading a file (in the tape sense) from a SCSI tape drive. Not interpreting the file at all, just being able to copy it to disk. -- Mark

27 years, 4 months

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Reading old SCSI tapes

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>>Somewhat on-topic question: can someone recommend a program, to run under >>MS-DOS (or maybe Windows) that is capable of reading a file (in the tape >>sense) from a SCSI tape drive. Not interpreting the file at all, just being >>able to copy it to disk. >What sort of tape drive? If it's supported under Linux, and it probably is, >then 'dd' would certainly do it. 'dd' will also throw away all the original blocking information on the tape. Many platforms and OS's will depend on finding tape marks and varying record lengths, and if you just 'dd' the tape all this information is lost. I've made a good amount of money over the years recovering RSX-11M BRU tapes where someone transferred the tape through a Unix system with 'dd' and lost all the blocking information. Most Unix-like OS's come with "tc" or a variation that will display tape blocking information; often folks take the output of "tc" and use this to create a script of "dd" commands that will handle the various block sizes on a particular tape. Under RSX-11M and VMS, I much prefer "TPC" format, which allows exact tape images to automatically be made with all the blocking information preserved. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

27 years, 4 months

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