- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Of what use is a DEC Pro-350? It's a PDP-11. It runs a verion of unix called Venix, also RT-11 and POS. The base CPU is the F11 (11/23) chipset and it's fairly fast save for the disks are slow. <I remember someone asking about ethernet as well. This unit has an etherne <connector on the back. Does it have the board though? Allison

27 years, 4 months

1
0
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Data General NOVA2 in 519 area

by cdrmool＠interlog.com

I just noticed in the TOR.FORSALE.COMPUTERS newsgroup an advert for a Data General NOVA 2 "with core memory in a DG rack" call 519-744-2900. I know nothing about this at all other than it looked like something that someone somewhere might somehow be intersted. If its really cool and you get it for virtually nothing, don't tell me. I'm doing everything in my power to ignore it. Painful as ignoring my curiosity may be. Colan

27 years, 4 months

9
12
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Pro-350 anyone?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< 000401 Disk controller < 000034 ram < 000034 ram That was a memory test... <Does Venix use the serial port for the console? No, It used the internal video console and Keyboard. Find a LK201/301/401 keyboard, the cable and a VR201(monochrome) or the Color tube (VR262?) as and of the PRO OSs will expect to use it. Though some OSs can be configured to use the serial port for a terminal (after install). It's a really nice little system and a VR201 is not that large. Allison

27 years, 4 months

2
1
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BAL-500 eprom programmer

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

Found this in the many boxes of apple // goodies i have. Plugged it into my //e and with a PR#7, got a menu and managed to experiment around and messed up an old ami bios keyboard eprom pretty good just for fun. I know it's menu- driven, but anyone have instructions on how to use it. I noticed the status LEDs blinking as it did various things. This thing could come in handy for who knows what... david

27 years, 4 months

3
3
0 0

MVaxII give away...

by mbg＠world.std.com

This was posted in comp.sys.dec... contact the person in the post, not me... - - - - - I have a MicroVAX II (BA23 cabinet?) to give away in SE Minneapolis. It has 5MB of memory, 150MB disk and TK50 tape drive. MicroVMS 4.5 is installed. Unusual boards include Analogic AP500 array processor controller, unfortunately without the AP500 itself. If anybody is interested and can pick it up locally, please let me know. - Marek -- | Marek Behr | (612) 626-8067 | behr(a)arc.umn.edu | | University of Minnesota | -fax- 626-1596 | http://www.arc.umn.edu/~behr |

27 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

HP disk drive command set

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Jeff, I finally found my copy of the docs for the HP Amigo command set. Do you still need a copy? Joe

27 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

BDV11 - which ROMs ?

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Ok, now the "panel" if you can call it that on the PDP-11/03 BA11-N has >three switches as well (restart (momentary), Halt, and Aux). I assume >that these are connected in some way to the BDV11 internally? tracking >the ribbon cable isn't easy on this chassis. Not really connected to the BDV... the BDV has controls over BHALT and the LTC... but so does the console. They both have to be set correctly for the processor to be in RUN mode. The Restart switch momentarily deasserts DCOK (if I remember correctly). The halt switch enables/disables BHALT (again, IIRC), and the LTC switch allows/disallows line frequency interrupts. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

Scorpion whoosie whatsis

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Hello, all: I just got a bunch of schematics for the main logic board and memory for a Scorpion computer. Does anyone have any info on this machine?? I'm not even sure that it was in production or not. It looks to be based on the 68k processor. I also got some schematics for the Corvus Concept and the Corvus hard disk interface (from IMI?) I'll post these shortly, but any info on the Scorpion is appreciated. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator

27 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

BDV11 - which ROMs ?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<>Here are the details: M8012-YA card with two ROMs labelled: <> <>Given the other stuff that was tossed out with this card I suspect either <>an RL01 boot rom or an RX02 boot ROM ... Ok, with the book infront of me... First Qbus-11s boot at 173000, the BDV-11 provides rom from 173000-->173776 (512 bytes), the roms are larger than 512bytes, Most boots are smaller than 512bytes! So those roms contain, Boot time diagnostic and one of the folowing: RK05 (DKn) RL01/2 (DLn) RX01 (DXn) RX02 (DYn) MOPboot via (DUV11, DLV11-E, DLV11-F) (for 23-045E2/046E2 romset) or user supplied rom with boot. the board also supplies a halt/enable switch, Restart switch and BEVENT-L disable. the leds are power OK and diagnostic error. Handy board for Qbus 11 building where the cpu is LSI11(M7264), LSI11/2(m7270) or 11/23(m8186). The later M8189 (11/23b) and 11/73 cards have rom on board. Allison

27 years, 4 months

2
1
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Museums

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

FWIW there are more than one kind of museum. There is a "Tech museum" kind that has a bunch of pretty displays behind plexiglass and the "research" kind. (And a whole bunch that are somewhere in the middle). If you have privileges at a research museum you can work on and/or use parts of the collection that are not available for "general" use. I would expect that a good research computer museum would be a great place to visit. --Chuck

27 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

Re "New" IMSAI

by rcini＠email.msn.com

On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:50:14 -0500, "Barry A. Watzman" <Watzman(a)ibm.net> wrote: >>You are never going to see a "new" IMSAI for $500. One can wish, can't one??? >>In the first place, many of the parts that would be needed for a complete >>system are no longer available. Like what?? I don't have schematics for the IMSAI, but looking at the Altair schemtaics, Jameco has many of the old parts except the 1702A EPROM and the exact RAM (although the 5101 looks like a likely sub). The power supply transformer may be available on the surplus market, or in new production quantities from Signal. >>In the second place, the original IMSAI was not UL approved (or even safe, really) >>and could probably not be sold today. >>In the third place, the original IMSAI was not even close to meeting FCC >>Class A much less B. If the plan is to sell a complete, fully-functional, off-the-shelf unit in CompUSA, then yes I agree UL/CSA approvals (which are expensive) are necessary, as is meeting the FCC emissions regs. However, how many hobbyest projects in Radio-Electronics or Popular Electronics have passed those rigorous tests? I'd guess none. What standards to be met depends on where this is being sold and in what quantities. Also, a redesign of the power supply for common sense safety is not all that difficult. I believe that it *is* possible to produce a slightly re-engineered "25th Anniversary" IMSAI 8080 for a reasonable price. >>Finally, $500 would be cheap for a low-volume copy, regulatory issues aside. Like I said in my original post, I'd bet that it is possible to come close to $500 (profits not included). The hardest part I'd bet is finding a suitable replacement for the enclosure. Maybe $500 isn't the right price; maybe $600 is. Maybe it's $800 with a profit figured in. I'd bet that it's less than $1200, though. If someone will send me a complete bill of materials for a basic IMSAI 8080, I can spend a few minutes pricing out the parts (assuming a 500 qty). >>Do not be surprised when your unrealistic expectations are not realized. Believe me, I won't be surprised. My pricing thesis was not an "expectation" since I hadn't gone through the exercise of pricing out a BOM to test for reasonableness. Maybe I'm all wet, but then again, maybe I'm not. I don't know. I was merely stating what may be possible. Here's my guidepost: the original Altair kit was what, $497. I figured that any cost benefit from {current} lower prices on silicon and passives would be offset by higher prices on harder-to-find parts such as the case, bus connectors and RAM. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator

27 years, 4 months

1
0
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Rebirth of IMSAI

by rcini＠email.msn.com

On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:27:06 -0500, "Mike" <dogas(a)leading.net> wrote: >>Why not create a current design for a modern front panel system? ok, retro >>styling because I like the silk screening of the 8800b and the 8080 but with >>*some* modern accoutrements while still providing that front panel >>experience. I think that what Tom is thinking of doing -- a Pentium II-class motherboard joined to an IMSAI front panel with either the S100 or a "new" expansion bus. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator

27 years, 4 months

1
0
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berman?

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

You may want to check out the ALPHA 16. I used to service them and should still have the docs. All of the ones I dealt with were core memory 8 and 16K IIRC. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 6:53 PM Subject: Re: berman? At 06:59 AM 3/22/99 -0600, Jay West wrote: >Anyone know what happened to bermans diversified industries? Is their >website just dead or.... >Jay West They are still there, I went by to be sure. They are completely "clueless" about the web so it may be a couple of days before they get their site back up. (I'm going to see if I can sell them a FreeGate box :-) Interesting stuff in this week's auction: #113 - set of interactive UNIX docs from Sun #109 M/2000 RISComputer (MIPS) #108 TU81+ tape drive #59 Qty 4 "ASR" Silent 700's (with cassette drives) *very* grungy #40 Various boards that look like HP boards one was marked HP 13037-69023 and C-1635 #37 Empty HP21MX frame and another HP21xx frame (no nameplate) HP Rk05 type disk (front loading pizza box) #19 Computer Automation "Alpha-16" front panel and on the pallet apparently the body of this machine. #14 Two HP7970E 1600BPI 9-trk drives #5 Very RARE Sun 75/GT "Graphics Tower" this was part of the Evans & Sutherland joint cooperation program with Sun. Few of these were sold (they cost 100K+) There is also a DECStation 5000/125, a SPARCStation 1+, and a couple of Sun Shoeboxes (external scsi drives) on this pallet. --Chuck

27 years, 4 months

1
0
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Seller's market

by fauradon＠pclink.com

I guess what we need is a definite authoritative price list for classic computers like the becket for baseball cards or the blue book for cars etc. This could be a collective or individual effort. Any takers? Francois.

27 years, 4 months

3
2
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Wanted. Coleco vision

by thedm＠sunflower.com

It's the Adam that is only an Adam if you have a colecovision to expand it with. -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Wanted. Coleco vision >On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, TheDM wrote: > >> Well, I finally found a Coleco Adam 3. however, this is the version that I >> need a Colecovision game system to play with, anyone have one for sale or >> trade? > >What's a Coleco Adam 3? > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] >

27 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

berman?

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Anyone know what happened to bermans diversified industries? Is their website just dead or.... Jay West

27 years, 4 months

2
1
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Wanted. Coleco vision

by thedm＠sunflower.com

Well, I finally found a Coleco Adam 3. however, this is the version that I need a Colecovision game system to play with, anyone have one for sale or trade?

27 years, 4 months

2
1
0 0

sellers market

by stephen.j.gabaly＠lmco.com

> > The Agony of Victory: Online Auctions and the Winner's Curse > > > > By Bruce Gottlieb > > > > snip > An extremely one-sided view, in my opinion, it makes many false assumptions, like each bidder has zero knowledge of the others bidders tactics and bids. I personally have not bid on products when "certain" people have the current high bid, I know their max bid is probably very high, so I don't bother. (result is a high bidder underpaiding). I wonder if anybody else does this? I would also guess that many cases exist where all bidders bid below the "fair future value". It has to happen, no one knows the future. In fact, all people who bid on the first Altairs auctioned on Ebay all bid below the fair future value(where today is the future). No? Ebay may seem a sellers market to a buyer, but go ask a couple dealers and you will get another story. The fact the auction ends at a specified time without a doubt lowers the final auction price, this does not occur in a live auction, in live auctions bids are taken until all bidders have reach their maximum bid. Collusion is also common on Ebay, and unlike real auctions is not enforced even if discovered. The grass is always greener on the other side .. For an excellent discussion on auctions, live and online, read about auctions from a real dealer http://www.mermac.com/auction.html steve

27 years, 4 months

1
0
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sellers market

by edick＠idcomm.com

Sam - First of all - There's already a trading website for CP/M systems and components, by the way. it's at < http://members.aol.com/randymc482/index.htm > It's new and hasn't much on it, but it's certainly available. I don't think everyone is as "hard-over" on the eBay thing as you are. I agree that many people ask far too much for the items they offer for auction. The eBay people publish a transaction success rate of only 70%. This means that while people are willing to bid unreasonable prices, they aren't willing to pay them. Nevertheless, the eBay folks collect a fee based on the price at which the auction closes. It's not a fee based on whether or not a sale is made, but simply on a price, and a very hypothetical one, based on the 70% success rate. That high failure rate of 30% is apparently a percentage of the completed auctions, not a percentage of those started. If no one would bid on an item, the auction would not be completed. Since it's possible, in fact, common for the seller to set a minimum price, it's sure that a significant part of that 30% failure rate that is a response to the all-too-high minimum set by the seller. That's a penalty for being unreasonable. If you were going to set up a site for hobbyists and collectors, which eBay is not, then you'd have to collect earnest money in the amount of the fee to be paid the auctioneer from each bidder, and return the funds paid by all but the winning bidder to the losers after the auction ends. This would ensure a higher completion rate, but would create a lot of work. If you were to collect from the seller, which is certainly reasonable in light of the fact the seller's the only one sure to have some money at the end of the transaction, you'd still have to ensure that the buyer pays. In return, however, you'd have to ensure that what's paid for is what's received by the buyer. All of this gets complicated. Facilitating barter, like facilitating sales, is difficult. Let me cite my own example. I listed a number of items which I know are of interest at least to the people who asked for them, knowing that I didn't want any more than the value of packaging and shipping, yet only one has actually come across with funds to offset postage for the two boards, etc, he asked me to send. I got lots of "I want all of it" without even a close-to-reasonable suggestion as to how to manage packaging, hauling, and shipping. Having gotten rid of the last of the terminals and printers that are going I have about 5 cubic yards of powered chassis and unpowered cardcages in addition to a bunch of cards which will easily fit into the cardcages if that's how I choose to package them. However, I still have to search through a lot of documentation and literally thousands of diskettes in order to put the media together with the doc. Everyone's happy to receive the stuff once it's found and packaged and shipped, yet although I originally indicated I'd be happy to accept "something I can use" (followed by some examples), and all the examples were VERY widely distributed, probably in considerably greater quantity than S-100 systems ever were, I've gotten no offers of these types of devices at all, even though, in several cases, the things are still available and at lower cost than what people seem willing to pay to buy the items I've offered. Hobbyists, you see, are the guys who want everything, want to pay/trade nothing, and only get rid of an item when it's certain they won't have any further use for it. I was once in that category. I did what I did for the love of it, and made a fair amount of money besides. Now I love it a bit less, and don't want all the paraphernalia taking up space if I can't use it for something serious. Now, multiply that by the number of transactions you anticipate facilitating, and you'll see you're up against an enormous expense just in aspirin, MAALOX, whiskey, and prune juice. That's why eBay operates the way it does, still more or less isolated from the transactions, yet able to bring in lots of dollars because they charge the speculators money regardless of whether they sell their item or not. Does this seem different to you? Dick +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 11:06 AM Subject: Re: sellers market <snip> >>I think this is a VERY, VERY GOOD idea ! > >It is a good idea but let me be the naysayer for a moment. Say someone >does go through the trouble to create such a cool site. A bunch of guys >sick of the ebay atrocity start posting want ads for stuff they want. >And they wait. And wait. And wait. And...nothing ever comes of it. >People who are selling this stuff come to the page, see someone wanting an >Exidy Sorcerer for $15 and go "HAH! I can get 20 times that on ebay!" >Then they go to ebay and get 20 times that. > >Now I would think that many on this list are more interested in trading >computers in a sane manner with other like-minded hobbyists, and on the >strength of that alone will this work. > >Now let's say that a trading board is added, where people can post stuff >they have for sale or trade there. Let's say some really cool things are >offered for sane prices, like S-100 systems and cards, interesting >micro's from the 80s, PDP-8 hardware and software, etc. Good stuff. All >being offered at reasonable prices because its offered by hobbyists >intended for hobbyists. > >Now, along comes some jerk with a lot of money, he starts buying up >everything that gets posted, and then even worse, a couple weeks later >this stuff starts showing up on ebay and getting sold for the same old >ridiculous prices! > >Now, what I'm trying to say is, while this sounds like a very cool idea, >it has the potential to get destroyed by the very thing we're trying to >avoid. A system needs to be designed to insure that there is a level of >integrity maintained, otherwise you just have another ebay, and one ebay >is bad enough. > >I don't have any ideas on this (yet) but I think it should be well thought >out before anyone even bothers to set up the site. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] >

27 years, 4 months

7
13
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sellers market

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 06:43 PM 3/19/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Like I said in a previous message, just >because an idiot wants to pay $3,000 for an Altair, doesn't mean everyone >else should too. Ebay is your boogie-man. You say Ebay's driven up the prices of Altairs, but where's the marketplace that's selling Altairs for $600, like in the good old days? Who's to say that the street price of an Altair isn't $3K or $6K? While we have plenty of aspersions on the character of the "idiots" paying greater-than-hamfest prices, where's the discussion of quality o the merchandise? Isn't it possible that a "cherry" Altair, known working, lovingly cared-for, with historically accurate peripherals, docs and software would be worth more than the $200 hamfest dust-covered Altair case? At 10:01 AM 3/20/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >Of course they wish for a ridiculously high price. And my argument, which >you did not address, is that ebay's auction mechanism encourages >such ridiculously high prices. Yes, an auction can generate high prices. From the perspective of the seller, they're getting the best possible price. For the seller, you'd think they'd believe they were getting what they want for the price they're willing to pay. You're right, there are many variations of auction-like sale mechanisms, and there isn't yet a web site for every one. So you're going to pay for your time and bandwidth on www.sellam.com via the sale of banner ads, or what? >Its a free market sure, but the prices that come out of ebay auctions are >by no measure "fair market value". Pish-posh! Price is set between buyer and seller - that's it. Sure, you could write a book and attempt to persuade people that your estimated values were accurate for some place and time, but it doesn't prevent people from selling for less, and it doesn't prevent people paying more. So how do you derive "fair market value" for an Altair in Silicon Valley, versus an Altair I could see and buy here in Wisconsin? Yes, Ebay makes it easy for "lazy" people to buy Altairs. I don't spend many spare hours searching junk shops, but does that make me lazy or undeserving of the opportunity to own one at a price I'm willing to pay? - John

27 years, 4 months

3
2
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"new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I think you'd find some additional interest from others (me at least) for <modern kits or instruction sets like those to put these kinds of things <together. I might be able to follow some instructions. I know that I <couldn't just assemble one like you are now doing... yet. ;) It's something I'm not into. Publishing designs that can't be built unless your lucky to have the parts is not a winner. Trying to design something that most everyone can build is far to time consuming and would represent design compromizes that would be for the sake of buildability rather than some specific perfomance. then there is the issue of support. For example you can't get z280s as production has stopped. Some of the parts I use are based on my really deep junkbox. I do have two scopes, logic analyser logic probes, eprom programmers never mind the other tools like working systems to develop code on. Also something on that scale requires a lot of hardware to troubleshoot as initial bringup can include design errors, wiring errors and even a bad part. That leads me to why the Altair and IMSAI were replaced by AppleII and TRS80 style machines. Why, they were working out of the box and users could start coding ideas. Allison

27 years, 4 months

2
1
0 0

Redundant Technology Initiative

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Here's an interesting site. Not exactly what I'd have in mind for old computers but at least they aren't junking them and it seems pretty cool. http://www.lowtech.org/ Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99]

27 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

Somewhat OT: GRiDCase 1530?

by arfonrg＠texas.net

Anyone know anything about a GRiDCase 1530? Here's the situation: I have one that needs a new MB which can be had for $79.00. I know it's a i386 with a 100Mb HD (NO FLOPPY) and a B/W LCD display and it used a special version of MSDOS with some GRiD stuff added. 1) Anyone know if I can just add a floppy and a larger HD? 2) Can I load Linux on it? Thanks, Arfon ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html

27 years, 4 months

2
1
0 0

BDV11 - which ROMs ?

by mbg＠world.std.com

>This is so much fun, now in this otherwise forgotten pile of stuff I find >a QBus backplane with a single card stuck in it, its an M8012 (aka BDV11) >bootstrap and terminator card. Now the reason I ignored it, and probably >the guy who tossed this backplane ignored it, was because it has a large >number of "missing" chips. Presumably those are for booting various >devices, it makes it look like the board has been stripped. However, >knowing what it is now, I suspect it could come in handy. However, I've >got no docs on it at all (sigh), but I've got The List. :-) In my experience, I've never seen a BDV11 with more than 4 chips in the sockets... You probably have a perfectly good BDV there... >Given the other stuff that was tossed out with this card I suspect either >an RL01 boot rom or an RX02 boot ROM ... Good possibility... also, a little trick about booting if all you have is the RX boot... image copy the first block (boot block) of the RL drive to the first block of an RX disk... this way, you could boot the RL by specifying the RX... I've done it numerous times on some of my -11s which didn't have the boot room I needed. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 4 months

3
3
0 0

sellers market

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

Sam you make our point elegantly, extracting from the text ... ... Remember, there is no danger of the winner's curse if you are sure about the value of an item to YOU. (emphasis mine) You know somethings value, you can bid at that value, if you win then great, if you lose then some sucker over paid for the item, but that isn't your problem is it? --Chuck

27 years, 4 months

2
1
0 0

Got a question....PDP? VAX?

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Hi! I've been growing up in the age of "IBM era" of computers. The only non-IBM (compatible) computers that I've worked on was an apple //c and a TRS-80 model III that nearly caught my basement on fire. I'm 16 years old, so I haven't had any experience with any pre 1980's stuff (other than the //c). What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP, or a VAX, or an Altair, or any of the other things that come up frequently on the list. Also - how is one of the computers (such as the Altair) operated, with all the switches and indicators? Is there a keyboard or a monitor with it? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1>

27 years, 4 months

22
48
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Seller's market

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 10:58 AM 3/21/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >Think of it this way: if a toy stuffed with beans that cost a couple >dollars to manufacture were to be made for sale in a way which makes >people perceive a scarcity, and that toy was then subsequently priced up >to $1000 because of dealers and price speculators feeding on the perceived >scarcity of that toy, is it really worth $1000? Don't answer that yet. >Now fast forward a couple years in time and the market runs its course, >people are fed up with this toy and don't care about it anymore. The fad >is over, the bottom of the market drops out, and the last sorry asshole to >pay $1000 for a toy stuffed with beans is left holding an item worth maybe >$50 to the person who still hasn't caught on that it was all just an >irrational frenzy to begin with. Uh, yeah, I think there's at least two auction sites like that: NYSE and NASDAQ. - John

27 years, 4 months

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Odd DEC module

by william＠ans.net

This weekend I spent some time at the RCS/RI millspace, and one of the new arrivals is a very odd DEC module. It is called a "Smart Module", dates to 1975 or so, and is a double-high, extra long card. It looks to have an i4004, a bunch of glue, and five sockets for some 24 pin chips (ROMs?). The interesting thing are the handles - they are yellow! It is officially known as a Y187. I have never seen a yellow DEC module, nor have any references to any. The big blue Engineering book does not mention them. Any ideas from the Digits out there? Were these DEC internal? Prototypes? Mistakes? William Donzelli william(a)ans.net

27 years, 4 months

1
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HP external disk drives available

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I have the following extra Hewlett Packard external floppy drives for sale: HP 9121D, 9122D, 9123D, 9122C and one each 9121S and 9122S. The 9121 uses single sided drives, the 9122 and 9123 use double sided drives, the 9122C uses HD double sided drives. The D models all have two drives. The S models have only one drive. The S models are very rare, I've only seen three of them in several years of HP collecting. The 9123 is exactly the same as a 9122 except that it has no built-in AC power supply. It's intended for use with the HP 150 TouchScreen II and gets it's power from it. I also have some external HP hard disk drives available, mostly 9153Cs, 9133Ds, and a few HP 7958s. Most have BASIC or Pascal for the HP 9000 200 or 300 series computers installed on them. All the drives have the standard HP-IB interface. Contact me by private E-mail if you're interested. Joe

27 years, 4 months

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"new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research)

by dogas＠leading.net

-----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 10:56 PM Subject: Re: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) ><I think you'd find some additional interest from others (me at least) for ><modern kits or instruction sets like those to put these kinds of things ><together. I might be able to follow some instructions. I know that I ><couldn't just assemble one like you are now doing... yet. ;) > >It's something I'm not into. Publishing designs that can't be built unless >your lucky to have the parts is not a winner. Trying to design something >that most everyone can build is far to time consuming and would represent >design compromizes that would be for the sake of buildability rather than >some specific perfomance. then there is the issue of support. >For example you can't get z280s as production has stopped. Some of the >parts I use are based on my really deep junkbox. I do have two scopes, >logic analyser logic probes, eprom programmers never mind the other tools >like working systems to develop code on. > >Also something on that scale requires a lot of hardware to troubleshoot >as initial bringup can include design errors, wiring errors and even a bad >part. That leads me to why the Altair and IMSAI were replaced by AppleII >and TRS80 style machines. Why, they were working out of the box and >users could start coding ideas. ok, I see (all of) your points and unhappily agree. So, what are the goals of your system design? - Mike

27 years, 4 months

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HP HP-IB tape drives available

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I have some extra HP tape drives if anyone wants one. I have one HP 9145 32 track drive and several HP 9144 16 track drives. All use the HP-IB interface. The use the DC-600 size tape but require that you use HP tapes since that have to be preformatted. I do not have any extra tapes, you'll have to find your own. I have tested the drives and they all work fine. Contact me by private E-mail if interested. Joe

27 years, 4 months

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SWPT 6800

by dogas＠leading.net

I also have no documenetation on the AC-30. Is this compatible with the MP-C board and does anyone have any paper on it? Thanks again - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 4 months

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Security question (sort of)

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Check out my website: http://members.tripod.com/general_1 -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1> -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 12:50 PM Subject: Re: Security question (sort of) >On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: >> My computer was recently hacked into, and a bunch of the software, and some >> of the hardware was messed up (I know who did it - no one on this list - >> someone from my school). > >What kind of damage were they able to perform on hardware? >

27 years, 4 months

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SWTPC 6800

by dogas＠leading.net

I've been going through the documentation for the swtpc and listed below what I have. I'd be happy to help fill in any docset gaps for anyone with copies and ask also for copies if anyone has anything not in my list. I'm initially looking for any missing Assembly instructions( MP-A2 ) Parts Lists( MP-A2, MP-B ) and System Checkout Instructions( MP-B, MP-C, MP-P ). Thanks - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net SWTPC 6800 Documentation Motorola M6800 Microcomputer System Design Data SWTPC 6800 Computer System Addendum SWTPC System Documentation Notebook Introduction Hardware Introduction MPU 1 - MPU 30 PIA 1 - PIA 14 missing 9,10 ACAI 1 - ACAI 9 Programming Introduction PROG 1 - PROG 29 OS/Software/Appendices Mikbug Operating System Dual Address Memory Test CDAT by John Christensen Engineering Note 100 - MCM6830L7 MIKBUG/MINIBUG ROM ROBIT 1 - ROBIT 4 MEMCON 1 - MEMCON 4 SERINT 1 - SERINT 3 PARINT 1 - PARINT 3 TICTAC 1 - TICTAC 9 Motorola's M6800 User's Group 1 - 3 M6800 USER GROUP LIBRARY SUBMITTAL FORM Language of the M6800 Microprocessor 1 - 16 Motorola Semiconductors - MC14411 System Checkout Instructions 1 - 6 molex zero force sockets ic insertion instructions Connector ReferenceSheet System Checkout Instructions MP-A2 Version 1 - 5 (page 5 partially missing) board layout of MP-A2 Assembly Instructions MP-B Mother Board 1 - 9 schematic Assembly Instructions MP-C Serial, Control Interface 1 - 12 Parts List MP-C Serial Control Interface schematic board layout Assembly Instructions MP-P Power Supply 1 - 6 Parts List MP-P Power Supply schematic board layout MP-P Power Supply Wiring Diagram M-16-A Installation Instructions *EOD*

27 years, 4 months

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BDV11 - which ROMs ?

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

This is so much fun, now in this otherwise forgotten pile of stuff I find a QBus backplane with a single card stuck in it, its an M8012 (aka BDV11) bootstrap and terminator card. Now the reason I ignored it, and probably the guy who tossed this backplane ignored it, was because it has a large number of "missing" chips. Presumably those are for booting various devices, it makes it look like the board has been stripped. However, knowing what it is now, I suspect it could come in handy. However, I've got no docs on it at all (sigh), but I've got The List. :-) Here are the details: M8012-YA card with two ROMs labelled: 23046E 23045E 2 7907 7907 I'm guessing 7907 is the date code. Then it has two switches on the top (S1, S2) (large paddles), a dip switch that has 8 positions and another dip switch with 5 position. (I'm guessing this is CSR and Vector) Given the other stuff that was tossed out with this card I suspect either an RL01 boot rom or an RX02 boot ROM ... --Chuck

27 years, 4 months

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11/44 9trk help Update

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Well... never underestimate the efficacy of cursing loudly and throwing random things. I have discovered that the 11/44 te11 does not play well with the Cipher 880, tho I could make it do everything but actually read and write. I have discovered that there is a certain amount of 'connector ambiguity' as per usually with DEC stuff... the proper orientations were of course the last ones I tried, after mis-reading the pin numbers on the Pertec formatter twice. And wahoo! I can PIP files to and fro, and, scenes from my childhood computer dreams... I can watch the reels turning and incrementing. Too much fun! Thanks to all who have responded privately and I'm looking forward to more info here on The List or by e-mail. NOW: I have some DECUS tapes I would like to explore, but they are archived in .DSK format. I can run RT11 from within RSTS okay, but I have no idea how to un-do a .DSK. Any Help from someone here? And what a wonderful roar all this stuff makes... Cheers John

27 years, 4 months

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Victory! (was: seller's market)

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

I can summarize this whole affair in four statements: 1. Awareness goes up, causing commercialization of an otherwise 'user-friendly' hobby 2. Prices go up, shafting the poor guy who got into this because it was a fun and inexpensive passtime. 3. These guys leave because the hobby is no longer inexpensive. 4. The {vultures|speculators} take over and pick the {carcass|hobby} clean. It may be just 'nature' but it is still an ugly sight, and it pisses me off. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

27 years, 4 months

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FREE: Vic-20

by fpp＠concentric.net

Outstanding, the money is on its way in the morning, Thanks again.

27 years, 4 months

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Rebirth of IMSAI

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Yes, but it's possible to make replacement parts for an auto engine. If <there's simply no more of a certain processor available, what do you do <besides make a replacement out of custom chips? Thats bogus as finding 8080s is not hard and in a pinch a 8085 or z80 (both more common) could be used as it's nearly as old. In practical terms a front pannel machine based on a z80 would prove a useful learning tool and prove to those that think it's cool why they are gone. ;) It doesn't have to be an altair or IMSAI clone. Th real clone question is, does one copy all of the faults and bugs or does one clean it up so that it's reliable in function? Allison

27 years, 4 months

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Rebirth of IMSAI

by edick＠idcomm.com

What might make sense here is to replace the 8080 + surrounding logic with an FPGA which talks directly (or maybe with buffering) to the S-100 bus. With the right FPGA, you'd need no status latches, no bus buffers, just the FPGA. If you use your imagination, you could even make it download the FPGA >from your PC, which would also serve as the console. That way if you wanted to run it as an 8080 one day and a 6502 the next, that wouldn't be unrealistic. It might even be conceivable to do this with a SCENIX SX in the 52-pin version. You need a few pins for overhead to operate the SX, plus the 40 less the supply connections for the emulated processor. If you write your code so it operates the S-100 directly, you don't have much to worry about. The skew between port updates is negligible next to what the original part had, and you can, of course synchronize the signals by latching them at the bus interface. Now, I don't know whether I would want to do this, but as you can see . . . the possibilities are virtually endless. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 8:12 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI >> >> On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >> >it was correct if motor car museums had modern engines in all the >> >exhibits? >> >> Yes, but it's possible to make replacement parts for an auto engine. If >> there's simply no more of a certain processor available, what do you do >> besides make a replacement out of custom chips? > >That's one reason for prefering machines made from simple, standard chips :-) > >But seriously, what you _should_ do is make a replacement. Start from >the data sheet and implement it using (say) an FPGA. Document the fact >that it's in no sense original, of course, and keep the blown chip >(preferably inside the machine). > >Yes, that's a lot of work. > >However, I don't think we're talking about that. On several occasions >recently I've been asked about making a video 'recording' (either on >video tape or, more likely, on a PC) and then playing it back to a modern >monitor hidden inside the case of a classic monitor. This was to go on >show as a museum exhibit in place of having the real machine in operation. > >I was not at all amused. If I (as a small private collector) can keep >these machines running then a museum certainly should. In fact that >should be their primary aim (or possibly to keep the machines in perfect >physical condition, all original parts, but certainly not to display >fakes). If they don't have somebody who can do that, they should employ >somebody... > >It appears that some museums only care about the most trivial level of >appearance of their computers and not one bit about what's inside... > >-tony >

27 years, 4 months

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11/44 9trk tape help

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Hello List! I am not having much luck trying to figure out how to use the 9trk tape device on my PDP 11/44 system. The 11/44 has a big Fuji SMD as DB0:, a TU58 I have no tape for, and either a Cipher 880 or a Kennedy 9100. The controller is a TE11 and the unit is MA0:. For purposes of this question I have hooked up the Kennedy... mainly so I can *watch* it run. ;} The OS is RSTS/E V9.7. I have no RSTS docs at all... a year ago I gave them to the guy I got this system from. :< (Hi Bruce!) I have spent some hours going over the 'help' docs, but I have no experience with 1/2" tape other than the other Cipher on my uVax II under VMS, which, notwithstanding having some doc and a lot of patient help from a number of folk, I couldn't get to copy foreign files (RT11 <-> VMS). I would just like to be able to copy files to and from the disk, and to load files from the other tapes. I have played with Initializing, Allocating, and Mounting... but I'm missing something. I have been trying to use PIP to move files, but it's been suggested that PIP don't speak Tape... I dunno. Can someone who has done this just give me the outline of how to use the 9trk? I have been reluctant so far to use the BACKUP and RESTORE facilities because I don't know any possible gotchas involved. Maybe if I can get this HD backed up to tape then I'll feel safer mucking about. Thanks in advance!! Cheers John

27 years, 4 months

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S-100 prototyping boards

by edick＠idcomm.com

Actually, I used to sell an original wirewrap board which has a colander ground and power plane and a 0.100" matrix of plated through holes. That was how all my wirewrap boards were configured, so I could use whatever dip, pin-grid array, or idc connector I wanted without concerning myself with whether it would fit. Of course, back in the S-100 days one didn't have to worry about the off-grid connectors like the DA-15 or the DB25. These boards had dry-film solder mask so you could use bare-wire point-to-point wiring for layout sensitive analog circuitry, keeping it close to the low-impedance ground or Vcc plane without fear of soldering to that plane. I'll have to see if I can still find those old films. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sergey Svishchev <svs(a)ropnet.ru> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 7:34 PM Subject: S-100 prototyping boards >On Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 12:34:22PM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> From what I've observed the 100-pin >> card-edge connectors are pretty common. I really don't know why, but they >> are. Every time I look at the local surplus parts house, I see those old >> connectors, in the same box they were in 20 years ago, even though the store >> has moved 3 times, with the label "S-100 Connectors, $3.95." > >And Douglas Electronics still sells S-100 prototyping boards: > ><URL:http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/s-100.html> > >-- >Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru

27 years, 4 months

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Database of old computers?

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

I just purchased a Poqet PC and am working on cataloging all my computers on it so I'll have a list on hand when I go to the hamfests. Of course, I have a pretty good idea what computers are in my collection. What I really need is a database of the machines that _aren't_. Thomas Haddock's "A Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators" is an excellent reference. It gives the computers specifications, date of introduction, and a brief description of the unit. ? Usually enough information to determine if the computer is worth the purchase. Are there any references similiar to Haddock's available electronically? I'd really hate to have to retype Haddock's entire book just so I can carry it around with me... Tom Owad

27 years, 4 months

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"new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research)

by dogas＠leading.net

-----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 9:47 PM Subject: Re: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) ><>Simm sockets, PLCC and other chip sockets and the z280s were socketed to ><>start with. >< ><Cool... Can I have a copy of your assembly documentation? > >Why, It's going to be a single copy wirewrap. The bulk of the docs will be >a print set to work from, maybe a wire list and software. I think you'd find some additional interest from others (me at least) for modern kits or instruction sets like those to put these kinds of things together. I might be able to follow some instructions. I know that I couldn't just assemble one like you are now doing... yet. ;) - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 4 months

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H11 vs H11A ?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<What does the "LTC" switch do on an H11A ? It kills the LTC interrupt (BEVENT-L). Which is more common? (H11 or H11A) Can an H11 be "upgraded" to an H11A? The upgrade is possible and trivial. the cpu board, backplane and all are unaffected. The common failing on H11s is the power supply was not all that reliable. I'd try to find a H780 and shoehorn it in. I still use a serial card from one as a serial replacement for the parallel LAV11. fair design, second rate board compared to DEC version. Allison

27 years, 4 months

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"new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<>Simm sockets, PLCC and other chip sockets and the z280s were socketed to <>start with. < <Cool... Can I have a copy of your assembly documentation? Why, It's going to be a single copy wirewrap. The bulk of the docs will be a print set to work from, maybe a wire list and software. Allison

27 years, 4 months

1
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Rebirth of IMSAI

by dogas＠leading.net

Why not create a current design for a modern front panel system? ok, retro styling because I like the silk screening of the 8800b and the 8080 but with *some* modern accoutrements while still providing that front panel experience. - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 4 months

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Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research

by edick＠idcomm.com

I've got to disagree on this one. From what I've observed the 100-pin card-edge connectors are pretty common. I really don't know why, but they are. Every time I look at the local surplus parts house, I see those old connectors, in the same box they were in 20 years ago, even though the store has moved 3 times, with the label "S-100 Connectors, $3.95." They sit right next to a box of connectors nearly the same size, which says on it, "Multibus Connectors, $4.95." They seldom have the 30-pair connectors used on the secondary connector for Multibus-I, nor do they often have the 31-pair or 18-pair connectors used on a PC backplane. Now, I didn't say I like the price, but there they are. I don't know of many parts which were used in these old products, with the notable exception of the UART (TMS 6011, AY5-1013, etc) which were popular back in the mid-1970's. They were mostly standard TTL, though, which, if replaced with the currently popular CMOS equivalent may suffer from the poor designs of yesteryear. Back then we were still learning about race conditions and setup and hold time violations, and the like. Back then, a circuit designed to operate from a 25 MHz clock was taxing the limits of the technology, while today, people don't even blink when the clocks are over 10 times that fast. Replacing the old "standard" TTL with the still-available LSTTL may prove hazardous because of timing changes as well, and some of the old tricks with capacitors as delay elements may not work properly either. There are plenty of problems. Getting the common TTL of that era won't be as easy as it was then, but it won't be a lot more difficult. Now that I know this rebirth is a possibility, I won't throw away any more of the old standard TTL or small memories, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research ><An important thing to remember is that the Original IMSAI sold for almost ><$1000. So even though a new Pentium II 400 is only $1000 with all the bell ><and whistles there is a cost savings due to selling hundres of thousands o ><the thing. An IMSAI kit maybe a few hundred or so.< > >Doing an Imsai would be expsnsive as finding the parts would be costly. >Many arent made or are such low volume (100pin connector for sure) that >it isn't going to be cheap. > >For example the backplane 18 slots (or was it 22) roughly 13"x18" two sided >in quantities of 100, I'd bet that would be a $100 right there. Even in the >S100 heyday $49 was cheap (no connectors or anything else). > >Allison >

27 years, 4 months

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H11 vs H11A ?

by mbg＠world.std.com

>What does the "LTC" switch do on an H11A ? Which is more common? (H11 or >H11A) Can an H11 be "upgraded" to an H11A? If it is anything like the LTC switch on a BA11-M or BA11-N, it enables or disables the Line Time Clock... I can't answer about H11 v. H11A Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 4 months

1
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Seller's market

by Watzman＠ibm.net

The messages by some of the participants shows that they really do not understand [or perhaps do not want] the concept of a free market. What they really want is a highly imperfect market so that they can buy things at low prices even though there are people around who are willing to pay more [given the presumption that all sellers will sell to the highest bidder ..... and I use the term bidder loosely, not necessarily to imply an auction type format]. The internet is having a huge impact on buying and selling because it is creating the most free and perfect market that ever existed. The definition of such a market is that every buyer knows of every seller, and vice versa; the sellers are able to find the buyer willing to pay the highest price, AND the buyers are able to find the sellers willing to sell for the lowest price. GROW UP ! You have no right to complain because someone else is willing to pay more than either you are willing to pay or than you think that the item is worth. In the latter case, someone else obviously disagrees with you, and IS willing to put their money where their mouth is. That said, I do feel that steps should be taken to INSURE that bidders complete their deals. If I were a seller, and someone bid $5,000 and then backed out, I'd seriously consider legal action to enforce specific performance. I believe that bids on E-Bay are legally enforceable, but in 90% of the cases, because of both the amount and the fact that the buyer and seller are probably in different states, it is just not practical to try and enforce it. However when the bids get into the thousands of dollars, the situation changes and it may become practical to seek a court order of specific performance. But, perhaps a better way would be for E-Bay to create a new class of "Bonded Buyers and Sellers", in which E-Bay has credit card numbers from both buyer and seller, and both buyer and seller have agreed to binding arbritration by a 3rd party [E-Bay]. A bonded seller could designate an auction as open only to bonded bidders, with the assurance on both sides that the transaction WOULD be completed and that items offered would be as described.

27 years, 4 months

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