- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

Ok, one step closer. The description of core in the PDP-8/a miniprocessor users manual shows the wires going straight through the cores. Is this correct? I'd expect the wire to make one or two turns around the core so that the magnetic field it induced would be "inside" the torroid. Comments? What about driving voltages? I've got a +/- 36v @ 3amps supply here, the PDP-8 uses its 15 volt supplies. I'm building a simply push-pull direct coupled amp out of a couple of transistors to send the signal that Allison drew. I'm using a Parallax BASIC Stamp to generate the waveforms (I could use the HP but then it wouldn't be portable) Sense wire? Straight through the core or also with a wrap? --Chuck

27 years, 2 months

2
1
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Leaky nicad battery

by edick＠idcomm.com

First, desolder the battery. If there's so much residue on the PCB that you feel you need to brush it off, a toothbrush (if you have an old one, else use someone else's) will serve to clear away the glutch. Then, use the toothbrush to scrub the area where the battery was with alcohol. Then apply diswashing soap or some other liquid detergent, and scrub with that, then wash all traces of detergent off the board with hot tap water and remove the water any way you can, avoiding mechanical stress on the board. If you want the board to work properly, you'll have to make some provision for a battery to replace the leaky one. An external arrangement of some sort will serve nicely, but you'll probably have to reconfigure the jumper(s) governing where the battery voltage is to be obtained. External arrangements vary some, so it's up to your ingenuity to figure that out. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mark <mark_k(a)iname.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 12:27 PM Subject: Leaky nicad battery >Hi, > >I have an old PC which has a leaky nicad battery soldered to the PCB. There is >stuff coming out of the battery, which has corroded the PCB traces near it. >This is probably the reason why the machine doesn't work properly. > >Can anyone recommend an effective method of cleaning off this stuff so that >further corrosion does not occur? When it comes to repairing PCB traces, I >guess I'll just have to solder some wires in place. > > >-- Mark >

27 years, 2 months

1
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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

I resemble that remark! First of all, my man, I'm not technically a senior citizen . . . yet . . . but I'm practicing. I've always been somewhat obnoxious, and you would know know, I imagine, about the propriety of any remark in this forum, since much of what you publish here would be inappropriate in any forum. I appreciate your choice of words, though. It seems you've got a real chip on your shoulder, Sellam, and I wonder why. If you look at the remark to which you refer in the context from which it was taken, you'd realize that it was quoted in the context that California tends to have an assortment of opinion which goes farther toward the extremes than many less collectively "enlightened" and, perhaps therefore, tolerant, regions of the planet. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 2:34 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Well Hans, there's this saying, a derogatory one directed at California, but >> not totally without foundation that "Whenever there's a tremor, all the >> loose nuts roll to California." > >Yeah, and there are plenty of derogatory remarks that can be directed at >senior citizens being obnoxious curmudgeons, but they're inappropriate for >this forum. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >

27 years, 2 months

1
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Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC")

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

At 12:51 AM 4/24/99 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, James Willing wrote: > >> So, do you have a mark-sense reader? Or should I still plan to bring mine? >> (never quite ready to give up!) B^} > >Yes, but mine is an old HP Optical Mark Reader and I've never played with >it yet so I don't know what's involved in running it or interfacing with >it. Is yours a ScanTron? Yep. I have a pair of ScanTrons. One is the stand alone quiz grading unit, and the other is the general purpose form (page) scanner. I've also got an HP or two... -jim --- jimw(a)computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

27 years, 2 months

1
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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Where is the difference to the 70s and 80s ? The knee is around 75ish when the micro started to gain momentum the next knee is at 80-81 with a large number of user ready machine stepping up to the rail. '85 is the next in my mind where the market took a distinct shift and z80/6502 dominance took a noiceable down turn for the 80286/68k battle. There are more but during that time we would see vendors of quality system disappear from the noticable market shift. The in 80s one nearly killed MS (ok it scared them)! Allison

27 years, 2 months

3
2
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More new toys

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Upon the date 02:17 PM 4/24/99 +1000, Karl Maftoum said something like: > >Latest finds: > >Picked up a nice Motorola MVME chassis + cards (68000), the system works >are runs OS-9, still playing with it :-) Anyone got any info on this >system? Well, for starters tell us what the module designations are (such as MVME122, MVME204-1, MVME400, etc., etc.). The crate may also be marked with something like MVME945 or ? I'm most familiar with Moto's products. What version OS-9? > >Also 2x Sun3/50's and monitors. > >Not bad for mornings drive :-) Wish I could simply drive around in the morning and pickup stuff like this :-) Good haul! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa

27 years, 2 months

1
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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

The Apple-][ most certainly did come with built-in Video. That's just about all that was built-in. BTW, I just gave away one which had an APPLE brand monitor with it. I bought seven of these at one time, because they did something I didn't want to have to reinvent, but though the video monitor came with it, the Apple video is not the monitor, it's the refresh memory and the video control and timing logic to support it. Of course I've still got one with only a single drive, + multiple controllers each capable of either two or four drives, and a bunch of other cards, etc. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 10:01 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s >> The Apple ][ would qualify, it came with built-in video. > >The Apple ][ did not come with a built-in monitor; a monitor was not even >available from the manufacturer. > >The PDP-8/e with VT8-E that I mentioned earlier was shipped by DEC with the >VT8-E installed, and DEC provided a monitor. > >You are making distinctions even more arbitrary (IMHO) than most of the >"first PC" arguments. It seems like you are picking your criteria in order >to get an answer you've already selected.

27 years, 2 months

7
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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well Hans, there's this saying, a derogatory one directed at California, but not totally without foundation that "Whenever there's a tremor, all the loose nuts roll to California." Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 8:42 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >> > The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach <snip> >> > hadn't yet learned to run to California. > >> Whatever. > >Must be true, Now I'm able to run for California >(and I'll do it again for VCF3.0 :). > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK

27 years, 2 months

3
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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

No, Sam, those were not necessarily MY attitudes. I, after all, was only 6 years old during most of 1952. However, I'd submit that my statement is more or less correct, inasmuch as most Americans had no idea what a digital computer was in 1952. My grandfather worked for one of New York's large banks back then, and HE was a computer. He spent his time at work with those VERY tall multiple-entry ledgers you see in the old-time movies, adding up the columns in his head and recording the sum in india ink just as people had done it a century before. That was about 50x as quick and generally as accurate as the at that time not so common mechanical calculators which some time later filled accounting departments throughout the world. Guys like my grandpa didn't cost as much as ENIAC, or BISMAC, or whatever was the model of the day, and they got the work done. That's what the average American thought of when you asked him about a computer, though most didn't really even recognize the word. In 1954-55 a friend of my parents bought an airplane for $300. He also liked those British sports cars, which traded, 2nd-hand for about $300 in the late '50's, though they were not that "reasonable" by the time I wanted one (goodness only knows why I wanted it). Back to the attitudes . . . I certainly hope that you don't purport YOUR attitudes to be typical. I know mine aren't. What brings balance to a discussion is the presentation of perceptions. Two people can sit in the same room observing the same event and, afterward, discuss their recollection as though they were in different places. In this case, you're presuming to know what was the case in an era you could only have experienced semantically, while I experienced it "really" though through the perceptions of a child. I had the exposure to some of the same semantic influences as you, however, and I was able to integrate that with my recollections of those days to put things together in my mind, just as you do when thinking back to the '70's. That doesn't make ME right and YOU wrong, but it doesn't make YOU right and ME wrong either. You see, the larger discussion isn't about YOU or ME. One other point . . . I don't know how you can claim to know about what's on the mind of an "average" American. People who, ten years ago, were rabidly interested in computers, whether in work or in play, were not considered "average" in any sense. I'd say that the only way to get a reasonable "feel" for what an "average" person thinks must come from somewhere outside your circle of associates and mine. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 11:29 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach <snip> >> enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. > >Don't you mean YOUR attitudes, Richard? Get this through your thick >skull: YOU do NOT represent the mass thought process of humans. Time and >again you insist on applying your OWN personal values and opinions upon >the rest of the world when you make an assertion, and fail to realize >there are 6 billion people out there with ideas differing from your own. > >> $300 was not an expenditure an "average" American would consider lightly in >> 1952. That was the year I came to this country. There was an election >> between Adlai E. Stevenson (Democrat) and Dwight D. Eisenhower (Republican). >> It was BEFORE the first test of a hydrogen bomb. > >Sure, but the point is that it could CONCEIVABLY have been afforded by >anyone who wished to save their money for 6 months so they could collect >the parts together to build one. Just because YOU would not have chosen >to build one does not mean everyone else in the world would have made that >same choice. Everyone on the planet does not share your values, contrary >to your belief and opinion. > >I know if I were alive back then, and I had the same excitement for >computers that I do today, and an opportunity to build my own computer >came up for 1/10th of my yearly salary, I sure as hell would have saved >the money to build one. > >1/10th of the average American's yearly salary is about $3,000 these days >(thereabouts) and I know plenty of people who would save up that amount to >buy a righteous computer with all the trimmings in our time. So $300 out >of a $3,600 yearly salary (or whatever) back then is not only possible but >very do-able. > >> People weren't crazy then as they are now . . . and all the loose nuts >> hadn't yet learned to run to California. > >Whatever. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >

27 years, 2 months

2
1
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Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC")

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

At 06:41 PM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, James Willing wrote: >> On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote: >> >> > > A PROPOSAL: (for VCF III) >> > >> > <more snipppp> >> > >> > Maybe we should fix that only systems within the 10 year rule can be classified. >> >> Dang! I knew I was forgetting something! >> >> 6) In order to be eligible, the unit must have entered production (or >> in the case of a construction article based unit, been published) prior to >> the introduction of the IBM "PC". (198?... dang, brain fade!) > >1981. August to be exact.... > >Anyway, hold your pants on! The rules for the exhibit are coming soon! Ok... I'll defer to "he that runs the thing"... B^} So, do you have a mark-sense reader? Or should I still plan to bring mine? (never quite ready to give up!) B^} -jim --- jimw(a)computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

27 years, 2 months

4
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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were t

by edick＠idcomm.com

What I do remember, and quite clearly, is that the job I held in summer of '61 there was a sign right next to the washroom saying that the federal minimum wage, of wich there was none in 1952, was 65 cents per hour. In the early '50's people were saving up their bucks for a TV set, because not everybody had one yet. That was much different four or five years later, but for the first couple of years of the Eisenhower administration, things were rather poor, due to the compounded post-war recession. We came to the US in February of '52, and my father had a job engraving plates for bank notes, at which he was considered VERY well paid at $1.25 per hour. He left that job, to everyone's surprise to take a job in Oklahoma City for $1.35 an hour. I don't know what my mother earned as a secretary. Since people were just catching on to TV, if there was a station within range, I doubt anyone really wanted a computer. As I wrote yesterday, when someone said computer, I thought they were talking about my grandfather who held that title at one of the big New York banks. I was just a kid, but still, if computers had caught on the way they did some five to eight years later, people would have known about it and the things might actually have interested someone. Without the games, I doubt more than a hundred were built for personal use or amazement. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Walker <lwalker(a)mail.interlog.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 8:48 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were t On 22 Apr 99 at 20:02, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I suspect that few of the readers of this list remember the early '50's as I > do. I wasn't trying to compare or contrast the prices of the antique > computers which were under discussion, but rather point out that few people > would put out a month's pay (gross) for a personal computer, even today. In > the early '50's there were more people, including some professionals, with > less than $300 after taxes (and they were MUCH lower then) than there were > people earning more. There wasn't yet a minimum wage of $1.00 per hour, > and, in fact, when I had a minimum wage job in '60, I earned <$5.00 per > 8-hour day. Naturally a $300 computer wasn't on my list of things to buy. > > Dick > I think you're understating wages a bit in the early 50s . I remember getting $125 for a 55 hr week working as a construction laborer on a summer job in 52, and getting $1.75 an hour as a derrickman in the admittedly highpaying oil-patch in 53. On the other hand I worked as a jr. IBM operator in 55 starting at $35 a week. Office jobs unless you were in management were notoriously underpaid. I was paying $18 a week for rent. At this time the Can $ was equivalent or more than the US$ . I took out a loan from the credit union in order to buy a $125 trumpet. So otherwise your reference to the high price of "hobby " computers is valid. Of course the larger computers (data processors) could only be leased, not bought from companies like IBM and Univac, so even the concept of "owning" a computer would be somewhat ludicrous unless you were an academic with a liberal budget. ciao larry lwalker(a)interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c(a)xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C

27 years, 2 months

1
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PDP11 Info Posted

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

I just scanned the PDP11/23 and 11/34 pocket guides and posted them in GIF format at ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/pdp1134 and ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/pdp1124 In ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/ you will also find the TD systems Viking user and technical manuals that I OCR'd but the OCR did not do a good job of keeping the tables lined up. There are a few GIF's of those important pages. There is a UDT and a QDT jpg of the boards also. These boards have been very commonly rebadged with other companies names on them. They are Qbuss and Unibuss SCSI disk / tape controllers. Mixed in are UC0* files (GIF's) that are the important pages from the Emulex UC07/08 Qbus SCSI manual to set them up also. Zane hopefully will sort them into their own directories and post the new directory info. Dan

27 years, 2 months

2
1
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More new toys

by karlm＠blitzen.canberra.edu.au

Latest finds: Picked up a nice Motorola MVME chassis + cards (68000), the system works are runs OS-9, still playing with it :-) Anyone got any info on this system? Also 2x Sun3/50's and monitors. Not bad for mornings drive :-) Cheers Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Karl Maftoum Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia Email: k.maftoum(a)student.canberra.edu.au

27 years, 2 months

1
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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

You know, there must have been another company using the Digital name that put on those pitches my colleagues and I had to attend, which was not publicly traded, because that was part of the same spiel, i.e. "that's why we're not public . . ." I'm sure I didn't dream that, because my boss was usually present and I didn't really like what I was hearing. Is this possible? I don't believe a public corporation can have non-public subsidiaries. Can it? Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 7:07 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s > >> > They (DEC) wouldn't sell >> > directly to the government because that required they let government >> > auditors look at their books. There was too much risk that the word would >> > leak out that their profit margins on their mini's were pretty generous. >> > That would have led to competition, which they really never enjoyed. >> > >> > >> > Dick >> >> >> This is unadulterated #@$&*() bull. >> And revisionist history with an agenda sucks. >> >> I take serious offence to this. DEC sold directly to the government. >> They (the gov't) was their second largest customer when I was there >> (behind the good old AT&T Ma Bell folks). I was a dedicated Field >> service type at Fort Monmouth. I also did time as a government >> contractor on projects. >> >> What are you basing this opinion on. >> >> Bill > >First DEC was a public corperation... if you know anthing that counters >your claim. > >Now so happens my other half was a manager of the corperate and government >billing unit. I KNOW what the discloseures were! If anything IBM had a >presence for a long time so the govenment was for the most part locked in. > >Offensive is the least I can say about that statement. > >Allison >(formerly Senior Engineer, CSSE Printing Systems (DEC MLO, PKO, LKG, DSG, >OGO) >

27 years, 2 months

5
5
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Vintage Computer Festival Announcement!

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Pack your bags! The third annual Vintage Computer Festival has been set for October 2nd and 3rd at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, California. More information to come shortly. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99]

27 years, 2 months

11
12
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Fw: Old HP 9000/300 for free - you want it?

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Thought someone here might be interested... As usual, please contact the original poster... Jay West -----Original Message----- From: William Blair Wagner <blairw(a)triadnewton.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp.hardware,comp.sys.hp.hpux,comp.sys.hp.misc To: hpux-admin mailing-list <hpux-admin(a)dutchworks.nl> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 6:07 PM Subject: Old HP 9000/300 for free - you want it? >Hi Gang, > >Listen, this is not a joke. I have a very old (1985) HP 9000/300 model 350 >workstation. Its a relick! Its likely useless for anyone other than ant antique >collector, but I thought I'd see if anyone wanted it or parts of it before I >throw it all in the trash. It has the following parts / features: > >Workstation Cabinet: HP 9000/300 model 330 (1985) >1) Mainboard has BNC Ethernet connection, 9-pin rs232 connection, RCA sound mono >connection, HP-HIL connection, and an HP-IB connection >2) HP98547A HiRes Color Bitmapped video board with 64 colors ,6 planes of >display memory, and the 3 R-G-B connectors >3) HP98628A Datacomm board (I think for an external modem or something) > >External Cabinet: HP 9153B >1) 20MB hard disc drive >2) 3.5" removable diskette >3) HP-IB interface > >Monitor: >HP 98785A 17" (made by Sony in 1989) R-G-B monitor (very nice!) > >Keyboard and Mouse included too. > >It has HP Basic loaded (that's the OS), not HP-UX. > >I'll give this to anyone who wants to come get it, or pay for shipping. Like I >said, I dont expect anyone to want this, but you never know! > >Please email me if your interested, I wont be checking the news groups for >replies. > > >-- >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >: William Blair Wagner :"Education is not always knowing the answer, : >: CCI/Triad Company : ..but rather knowing where to look for it!" : >: blairw(a)triadnewton.com : >: UltimatePlus Software Engineer : >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

27 years, 2 months

1
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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

I'm sure everyone recongnizes that fact. What's important is getting past that point, i.e. settling what the definition is going to be. In the case of the early video cards, for the S-100, they weren't generally used as the console interface. In fact I don't know of a graphics card that was, though on toward '82-83 there were a few with some of the more "capable" graphics support chips like the NEC 7220 or that "BIG" Hitachi graphics chip, though I never saw one except at a trade show. Some of these were pretty demanding applications which quickly pointed up the weakness in using 8-bit computers for multi-plane graphics. They also pointed up the fact that decent high resolution color monitors cost about as much as a house . . . well, not quite, but you get the idea. If you bought one, you'd better keep the box, because you'd need a place to live when your wife found out . . . In any case, the dual-console (text/graphics) model was the default. The personal computer definition, IMHO, doesn't require that there be a dedicated video circuit, but does require one be tolerant of it, at least at the low end, because a lot of fairly potent "video-toy" types were pretty weak-kneed computers, and thus were touted as being for home use. You might say these were definitely personal, but you might also call their characterization as computers into question. I think it's a little shallow to quibble over whether the video was built in or removable when the system wouldn't really do much without some sort of video interface to effect the console function. As I recall, there was a board by VIDEX (?) for the Apple-][ which allowed you to present an 80x24 console, but didn't support graphics. The normal Apple graphics could be shown, though, by means of a separate monitor attached to the normal video output. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:37 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s >> The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 >> machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part of >> the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I >> think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- >> that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from >> a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry >> can't be easily changed or removed. > >You do realise that this definition implies that the IBM PC is not a >'personal computer' :-). On all the 'classic' IBM PC-family machines, and >on a lot of clones, the video system was an _optional_ plug-in card. I >think there's even a way to configure machines without a video card if >you're clever... > >-tony >

27 years, 2 months

1
0
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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

That's actually quite true. The technology didn't yet exist in 1950-55 for the hobbyist to expand on the initial concept and extend it into something potentially useful or even marginally so. It probably wasn't even terribly educational. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 3:08 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s > >> Just a couple of stray thoughts. While a person could possibly have >> purchased a $300 computer in the 50's, why would they? What could they >> have done with it? The answer is almost nothing. The only people who >> might have been interested would have been ham radio or electronics >> hobbysists, and they would very likely have built there own. I don't >> even believe there was a viable used market for low cost computers in >> the 50's, they would all have been enormous mainframes. > >Where is the difference to the 70s and 80s ? > > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. >H.Achternbusch

27 years, 2 months

2
1
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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

No, what's relevant isn't the technology and its state of maturity, but the comparison of the relative value of the numbers. Today, it's just assumed that if you buy an item for $300 and it subsequently breaks, you shrug your shoulders and throw it away. Back in the '50's, not many people were silly enough to do that. My comment about DEC is based on my observation that the only thing one could count on from DEC was that it would cost a lot. You seldom got technology less than an generation old, and they didn't provide systems integration services gratis as did nearly every other manufacturer, even Big Blue. As a consequence, these services were provided by the bloated aerospace and defense contracting industry. They (DEC) wouldn't sell directly to the government because that required they let government auditors look at their books. There was too much risk that the word would leak out that their profit margins on their mini's were pretty generous. That would have led to competition, which they really never enjoyed. There's nothing wrong with their products, but they were not tuned for nor were they suited for the personal computer market . . . not even the ones they claimed were. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 7:17 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> One aspect of this matter I'm already seeing ignored is the COST. That >> so-called FIRST personal computer which cost $300 in the early '50's, for >> example, cost quite a lot of money. In the '50's, it was unusual for anyone >> to earn $100 a week. A mid-priced Chevrolet cost less than $2000 and $10 a >> week was plenty for a week's groceries for a family of 4. > >That cost was estimated. The computer was only sold as a plan. The buyer >had to find the pieces to make it go and assemble it themselves. So its >conceivable this machine could have been built for free, providing one >could find all the pieces salvaged from old equipment. > >Regardless, it was still a computer that one could very easily have owned >in the 50s, which is more than you can say about a Univac or IBM 70x >series machine. > >> Not even DEC's so-called personal computers were competitive enough to >> interest an industry professional. The DEC mini's weren't even a good buy >> as they became obsolete. I doubt DEC equipment was EVER used where there >> wasn't a third party present who profited from its use. That doesn't mean >> they weren't appropriate and suitable for a wide range of uses, but it >> certainly doesn't characterize a personal computer. > >Huh? > >> Just to put things into perspective, a week's groceries, these days, for a >> family of four, cost about $150, a decent mid-priced car costs $15000, and a >> farily well equipped and appropriately designated personal computer with a >> 400MHz pentium, 8GB HDD, 64MB of RAM, OS installed, all the multimedia >> features, plus a current-generation modem (V.90) costs $400 less the monitor >> with monitors costing $139 for a 15" and $300 for a 20" type. These prices >> are from Best-Buy's ad in last Sunday's paper. You can probably do better >> if you shop. > >These prices are also based on technology that has had 50 years to mature, >and therefore the comparison is entirely invalid. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 <machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part o <the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I <think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- <that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different fro Except that the SOL was sold with a VDM1 as part of the system unless you bought it bare deliberatly (like you could a PC). As to definition... the longest standing one most would agree on is PC was at one time not a brand or machine but, PERSONALLY OWNED and not owned by a business (or part of one). To that end I really dont care if it had video or not. The idea of personal ownership of a PC was something rooted in the late 50s or eraly 60s and gave rise to the LINC and otehr machines that could be built for believable prices(or at high cost of labor). it wasn't until IBM called their specific product "The Personal Computer" that things changed some. However Apple, TANDY, Northstar* and company had all done their bit to raise the rail and better define what the consumer wanted out of the box. The revolution was in it's evolution. Allison

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First "threshold" apps? (Was: "First PC" and other nonsense

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Without question, to me, my first PC was the IBM 1130. The whole system fi <in one room with plenty of space for storage, card reader, and line printe <and all associated supplies. I could sit at the system console and do <stuff, or just punch in my data on one of the keypunches, slip a program but was it remotely possible to either make your own or even purchase one? This is a loaded comment due to the way IBM marketed their machines. I may add that without the peripherals (all expensive in their own right) the machine was not as useable as some. Personal... not quite. It did add weight the idea that computers didn't need buildings built around them. It would be an afector. Allison

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<That's actually quite true. The technology didn't yet exist in 1950-55 fo <the hobbyist to expand on the initial concept and extend it into something <potentially useful or even marginally so. It probably wasn't even terribl <educational. < <Dick Therein lies a critical point. At some point the _idea_ of having your own computer emerged as became as least acheievable. I'd say the catalyst was transistors and early ICs were the impactors in that transistion. Allison

27 years, 2 months

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Wang Stuff is avail.

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Right. This morning I got an e-mail release from the company giving me title free and clear to the Wang VS 7110 system and urging me to get it the hell out of there, pronto. SO: is there any interest in this system, as previously described (yesterday) on the List? I will be happy to e-mail the details to you if you wish. I am probably not capable, emotionally, of actually scrapping the damn thing, as my motive in rescuing it is preservation... anybody out there want the system? There is no room whatsoever at my place to store it, save for outside in the elements, and it would deteriorate rather quickly, even if it is coming up on summer.. I can help with delivery within a reasonable radius of Southern California.... Anybody....? Cheerz John

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

I suspect that few of the readers of this list remember the early '50's as I do. I wasn't trying to compare or contrast the prices of the antique computers which were under discussion, but rather point out that few people would put out a month's pay (gross) for a personal computer, even today. In the early '50's there were more people, including some professionals, with less than $300 after taxes (and they were MUCH lower then) than there were people earning more. There wasn't yet a minimum wage of $1.00 per hour, and, in fact, when I had a minimum wage job in '60, I earned <$5.00 per 8-hour day. Naturally a $300 computer wasn't on my list of things to buy. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 7:20 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >>> Just to put things into perspective, a week's groceries, these days, for a >>> family of four, cost about $150, a decent mid-priced car costs $15000, and a >>> farily well equipped and appropriately designated personal computer with a >>> 400MHz pentium, 8GB HDD, 64MB of RAM, OS installed, all the multimedia >>> features, plus a current-generation modem (V.90) costs $400 less the monitor >>> with monitors costing $139 for a 15" and $300 for a 20" type. These prices >>> are from Best-Buy's ad in last Sunday's paper. You can probably do better >>> if you shop. > >>These prices are also based on technology that has had 50 years to mature, >>and therefore the comparison is entirely invalid. > >"If the automobile had followed the same price-performance changes as >the computer industry in the past 50 years, a Rolls Royce would today cost >$4.95, get two million miles to the gallon, go 50000 MPH, and explode >once a day, killing everyone inside." -- Robert X. Cringley > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by gregorym＠cadvision.com

At 10:19 PM 4/22/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach >> of the "average" American. >Don't you mean YOUR attitudes, Richard? Get this through your thick >skull: YOU do NOT represent the mass thought process of humans. >> $300 was not an expenditure an "average" American would consider lightly in >> 1952. > >Sure, but the point is that it could CONCEIVABLY have been afforded by >anyone who wished to save their money for 6 months so they could collect >the parts together to build one. >I know if I were alive back then, and I had the same excitement for >computers that I do today, and an opportunity to build my own computer >came up for 1/10th of my yearly salary, I sure as hell would have saved >the money to build one. > >Whatever. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Both Sellam and Richard have valid points, but neither of them are right, because they're arguing apples and oranges. Richard is arguing consumer acceptance as a criterion - what average Americans _did_ do - and the fact is that very few average Americans in the 50s spent $300 on personal computers. Sellam is arguing affordability and availability as a criterion - what an average American _could_ have done - and Doug's site shows that it was possible to buy a PC for an affordable price in the 50s. Reduce this argument to its extremes: in the extension of Richard's view, _no_ PC can be considered a personal computer until every average American buys one, which hasn't happened yet and probably never will; in the extension of Sellam's view, if I can show that Leonardo da Vinci scrawled down plans for a recognizable computer that cost less than 3 month's pay in commonly available materials in 1500, even if one was never built, that will be the first personal computer, because someone could have bought or built one. This argument can never be resolved, because to do so, you have to agree on whether actual purchasing (as opposed to the possibility of purchasing) is required, and if so, what degree of consumer acceptance is enough (do you have to sell 1 machine? 50? 5000? 250,000?). I don't think anyone can agree on this. And let's keep the personal gibes to a minimum, please (i.e. "Get it through your thick skull"). My 2 cents, Mark.

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1702 EPROM question

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I scrounged around a found a stock of Intel 1702 EPROMs today. I know some of you have been looking for these. What are they worth? Joe

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Is video relevant? (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was:And what were the 80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

I have to agree that the argument is not pivotin around a single point. I've always thought of computers intended for home use as being personal computers. This doesn't mean that they can't be applied to non-home tasks, but if they're designed, packaged, and marketed for home use, they probably ought to be considered personal. The same can be true if they were designed to be used by a single individual, as opposed to several even if at different times. This doesn't mean that if it can be used by more than one individual it's not a personal computer. Likewise, if it's priced such that a normal, rational (not to imply that we users are either of these things) person could easily consider and justify owning one, it's probably a personal computer. Whether it had video-game-capable graphics is another issue. NOT EVERYONE WANTS HIS COMPUTER TO BE A HOT GAME MACHINE. That doesn't say that everyone who has a computer well suited for video games has a game machine, but it also doesn't say that every "game machine," be it Atari or Z-whatever, must be excluded from consideration as a personal computer. Frankly, I've completely lost track of why this was being discussed. I was, at one point indicating that what was listed at the "first" personal computer was really pretty expensive for "personal" consumption at the time at which it, or, rather, its plans were being marketed. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 2:57 PM Subject: Is video relevant? (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was:And what were the 80s >On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: >> The argument is getting out of control >OK >> because the arguers are trying to >> make the same point (to be a personal computer, a machine must have video >> capability as an integral part of its construction) using different >> definitions of "video capability". So I wanted to point out that the >> two definitions didn't match. >> The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 >> machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part of >> the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I >> think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- >> that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from >> a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry >> can't be easily changed or removed. > >Excuse me? >Am I misunderstanding you? >Or are you saying that a machine that is sold without video is NOT a >"personal computer", even if a video card is sold separately? >And that if the DEALER installs the video card, that it is still a >"borderline case" for being a PC? > >By THAT reasoning, virtually NONE of the "PC Compatible" could be more >than "borderline"! It would mean that NONE of my 80x86 machines are PCs! >(I purchased the video cards separately, and installed them in all of >them, INCLUDING the 5150s.) > > >> Actually, this whole "First PC" argument is getting out of control, because >> everyone is free to use a different definition. The the argument >> degenerates into a "My definition is right!" argument. That's the reason I >> don't get involved. > >THAT part is inarguable. Unless a definition becomes externally impoised, >it will always remain subjective. >

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were

by edick＠idcomm.com

I have to agree with you on this one. The business community lent some measure of legitimacy to the "pre-IBM-PC" systems by putting them on the desktop to do "useful" work. They didn't care so much about "Space Invaders" or some other game. Without Visicalc and Wordstar, the micromputers of yesteryear would have been nothing more than video toys. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 10:57 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were >> "standards of usability", and considers that the "unusable" predecessors >> "don't count" towards being "FIRST". For some it's PRICE; for some it's >> internal characteristics; but for MOST, it's the ability to run the >> software that that user thinks is significant. > >I'd say it's fair to differentiate those that had to be toggled to life or >some such but there were already many systems that were turnkey and ran >significant software without investing in an engineering degree. However >in the age of retro-revisionism and the advent of the dumbing down of the >populace I would then contend the machine that wipes ones fanny is still >wanting. While games are a real challenge and make their authors big >bucks Its relevence to a word processor or spread sheet (two killer apps) >is barely there. I would contend that the apple and cpm machine that >could run visicalc (Dbase, Multiplan and so on) are the real contenders >for the PC revolution. > >Somewhere in all this pony manure is the pony I always wanted. In the >mean time I keep digging.. ;) > > >Allison > >

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Is video relevant? (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from > a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry > can't be easily changed or removed. And as long as we're taking arguments to their extremes, Apple ]['s *often* had their video circuitry changed and video signals replaced. That's what the 80-column (and other available video cards) did. Later ]['s have a header on the motherboard to make it easy to substitute aftermarket video. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 >machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part of >the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I >think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- >that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from >a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry >can't be easily changed or removed. >Actually, this whole "First PC" argument is getting out of control, I agree it's getting out of control, but back to the "integral video" question: doesn't this requirement make the IBM PC (5150) not a PC? (I'm about to break into Eric the Half-a-Bee here...) Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

Don't forget that between 1952 and 1960, the price of a phone call, a coin-machine-vended soft drink, and lots of other common consumables doubled. The price of cars did more than that, and the country, having endured, and survived, the post-war(s) recession(s), was about to embark on what now is viewed as the biggest and fastest moving era of economic growth the world has ever seen. That took less than the 8 years between the end of the Korean war and the election of JFK. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt <cfandt(a)netsync.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 1:13 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >Upon the date 12:21 PM 4/23/99 -0600, Richard Erlacher said something like: >>You're right, the numbers are not universal. It's hard to find numbers that >>are, BUT, in 1952, people didn't have electric dryers, and washing machines >>had wringers attached, as well as rollers on the bottom because housewives >>would roll them out the walk in back of the house to where the clothes line >>was located so they could hang their clothes and linens, the latter having >>been wrung before being hung on the line. >> >>In '52, as men were returning from the Korean war, the economy was still >>shuddering from the effect of the Korean war so soon in the wake of WWII. >> >>I'm not an economist, and even they probably can't explain exactly what was >>going on, but in the early '50's a phone call, a soft drink, a Saturday >>movie, and bus fare typically cost a nickel (that's 5-cents for those not >>accustomed to our monetary units.) in the midwestern US. In early '52, I >>lived in NYC, having just immigrated from Germany, and later (June '52) in >>Oklahoma City. In '55, we moved to Denver, where things really didn't seem >>too different, at least from what I heard from parents, etc. By then some >>people did have electric dryers, though. Electric ranges were more common >>as well. >> >>Housing was typically on 1/4-acre lots in the suburbs and the usual 1/6-1/5 >>acre lots in the city. If you lived where lots were 1/3 acre, you were >>probably well-off. >> >>When I lived in Oklahoma City, my nearest playmate was a physician's son. >>The guy who lived across the street from him was the chief of the state's >>highway patrol. By 1960, the culture had changed so much that people in >>those positions wouldn't dream of living in the same neighborhood with >>"working folks" like my parents. >> >>What I'm getting at here, is that things were VERY different by 1960, than >>they had been seven or eight years before. >> >>If you were raised after '60, the world would have looked quite different >>than it did in the early '50's. > >I was born in '53. I had the opportunity to see and perhaps experience the >social, economic and ethnic changes which happened though the 60's decade >and at least half of the 70's. What a change it was. > >I see where you are coming from Dick and lean more towards your view of the >matter. However, when I put the same feelings into the perspective of some >young whippersnapper like Sellam, then I see where he's coming from. > >Back in the early 60's, Dad had a job which paid about $4000 per year, Mom >did not work. With a mortgage, trying to pay for a ten-year-old car, >feeding me and my mother and him plus all the other incidental bills, we >had little spare money. Fried chicken or something simple like macaroni and >cheese were very common meals at supper because they were cheap. It was >Kentucky Fried Chicken only because my mother is from the Eastern hills of >KY, not from the Colonel's famous restaurant chain;) > >A $100 expenditure would be serious business if it was something which was >really needed. > >Allison's list of costs is accurate for me too except for the salaries and >our house cost $4300 on a half-acre in 1957 and there were only three in >our family. Sellam and others his generation in CA probably lived in a >region in which costs *and* corresponding salaries >were higher than what folks of my generation (Allison, Dick) grew up with. > >Things are weird even now. A decent three bedroom house with two car garage >on a decent lot in the city of Jamestown can be had for $45k to $60k. >However, groceries are avg. 10% higher than big city costs likely because >of lower competition and transportation costs to get them here. Other >cities like the NYC area, Boston area, Chicago area, LA area, Bay Area, >etc., etc., etc. have housing costs which are higher. Our European and >Australian colleagues may have the same experiences. > >It's all relative as can be seen by my one example above. Sellam, Dick, >myself and everybody else have different points of view as a result of our >"home" areas and our ages therefore our opinions will be formed accordingly. > >Let's wander back to an appropriate topic for this list:) What was it? >First PC? > > >> >>Dick >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >>Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:51 AM >>Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were >>the80s >> >> >>>> of the "average" American. First of all, it was over a month's pay for >>the >>>> average American, it was equivalent to six months' groceries for a family >>of >>>> four, and you could get a refrigerator or a washer, neither of which were >>>> routine discretionary expenditures for the "average" American of that >>time. >>>> That was during and immediately after the Korean war, when a 4-bedroom >>house >>>> on a 1/4-acre lot cost $4600. That same house, now, in California would >>>> cost you $4600 a month to rent. People's attitudes about what's >>important >>>> enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. >>> >>>The nubers you quote are not universal or reflected everywhere in the >>>US. >>> >>>On LI NY, 1960: >>> >>> My father made roughly 100$ take home. >>> My mother made 54$ as nurses aid. >>> My parent house cost $18,000 in 1957 (1/3 acre) >>> Neither car was never than three years old. >>> A washer was 110$ >>> A dryer (electric) was 122$ >>> Bazooka gum was 1 cent a piece >>> Weeks food from the A&P for 5 was ~33$ >>> The PDP-1 was considered groundbreaking for it's low >>> price of $120,000. >>> >>>By 1964 >>> >>> a 19 inch portable black and white TV was 120$ and still used >>> tubes. >>> >>>In 1971 >>> >>> A new chevy pickup was 2700$ >>> A used 8i system could be had for 2-3000 with peripherals(disks) >>> A new Cincinatti Milichron CM2000 basic machine was $2000. >>> >>>in short use real numbers. >>> >>>Allison >>> > >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net >Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

See embedded comments below, plz. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 12:22 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >Now, now. > >Without a lot of loose nuts, silicon valley and the "personal computer >revolution" might not have come off. That's actually true, I believe, although the now-past concentration of "intelligencia" in CA was the product of wise investment in educational institutions on California's part. With the economic successes bred by the liberal policies toward education and human services, California became a magnet for not only free-thinkers, but free-loaders as well. Now they're well into a backlash, e.g. Prop 13, Prop 187, etc. which seem to have passed. The liberal forces are still strong though. They talked about Jerry Brown as "Governor Moonbeam" but he was just a reflection of what the people had indicated a few years earlier that they wanted. A truly constructive dialog has to begin with the diametrically opposed extremes, doesn't it? >"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; >the unreasonable one persists in trying to >adapt the world to himself. >Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." > - George bernard Shaw > > >Just wait. After the big one, and everything east of the San Andreas >sinks into the Atlantic, . . . >

27 years, 2 months

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H214 board for pdp-8x?

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Can any pdp8'ers out there tell me if an H214 core board works in an 8E ? I thought the 8E used H212, but I'm not sure Thanks! Jay West

27 years, 2 months

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

Please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter <pechter(a)pechter.dyndns.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 11:31 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >> This "#@$&*() bull," was part of the party line presented by a DEC sales >> team at a presentation I attended about fifteen years ago, on behalf of one >> of the "systems integration contractors" their policies were designed to >> support. The presenters routinely referred to their clever position in the >> government market in the terms I used. > > >Considering I worked at DEC in 81-86 and we sold DIRECT to Fort Monmouth >I think that statement was misleading. I was not trying to mislead anyone, but, rather, to pass along what my colleagues and I were told at a pitch put on for us by the DEC sales force. We were engaged in a militarization of a uVAX-II by repackaging it in our own enclosure, with our own backplane/cardcage, and using EMULEX controllers and a truly high-res display subsystem separate from the console. Our task was integration-intensive. We had to buy a company in CA in order to ensure they would be around long enough to produce our ultra-high-res display boards, though I would have preferred to build it ourselves. That notion was incompatible with the premise on which the contract was based (COTS equipment, repackged to meet TEMPEST, among other standards. Do you suppose DEC had a separate company for handling this type of contract? That would explain the party-line that was laid out before us. We bought their Q-bus boards but provided our own <virtually everything else>. It seemed reasonable enough that they would take the position they took with government/military business. >DEC sold stuff via OEM's who often did system integration with NON-DEC >hardware and software and packaged systems with specialized requirements. >I remember a Martin Marietta special 11/70 in tempest cabinets with special >requirements -- but that was not common. > >A large number of the DEC stuff was sold through government contractors >because they could get machines under blanket agreements without >some of the government procurement restrictions and approvals. That was probably the case with our particular contract. I wasn't involved in the procurement, which made it a curious thing that I was sent to all these pitches. This was a "cost-plus" contract, so naturally it benefitted everyone when we could make the cost go up. Subsequent fixed-price arrangements had me begging our top managers to let me redesign the whole computer/cardcage/backplane using the microVax chipset by then (9/86 or so) available for use in BI-bus interfaces, on a VME card. I believed I could cram all the required hardware onto a dual-height VME card (about the size of a full Q-bus card) so we didn't have to deal with so many vendors, and then allowing us to use more readily available hi-res graphics hardware. The situation was so politically charged, I was called on the carpet by the VP in charge of that contract, and, I believe, nearly fired. If I hadn't been so fortunate as to have a long string of technical predictions (contradicting what the JPL guys had said) which were substantiated, I probably would have gone packing that day. >DEC got sued (and settled with the govt) because of the following issue: > >GSA got higher pricing from DEC than Ma Bell on their Vax orders. Were they buying through the same agent? >GSA also required installation, insurance, and warranty differences >in their negotiations for government pricing... I know -- I was dedicated >as an installation specialist in 81 when both Bell Labs and Fort Monmouth >were buying large amounts of Vax and DEC stuff. > >The GSA claimed the DEC prices for AT&T were lower than GSA prices >which is not allowed. DEC claimed they weren't for the same configuration >and services (which was true). >Ma Bell paid for insurance as a line item and either installed the machines >themselves and self insured or did away with insurance. > >(The govt didn't accept FOB coverage -- you sue the trucking company >for damages. DEC had to process any warranty and go against the delivery >company. You should see what an 11/780 looks like after it's been dropped >off a loading dock. Card cages were smashed. H7000 power supplies where >the card cages were. Doors bent in half. That machine was repaired >and was still running 4 or 5 years ago.) > >DEC settled rather than fight the government in court on this one. This is one of those cases where you settle because you don't think you can find a judge smart enough to understand the issues. >Bill

27 years, 2 months

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

You're right, the numbers are not universal. It's hard to find numbers that are, BUT, in 1952, people didn't have electric dryers, and washing machines had wringers attached, as well as rollers on the bottom because housewives would roll them out the walk in back of the house to where the clothes line was located so they could hang their clothes and linens, the latter having been wrung before being hung on the line. In '52, as men were returning from the Korean war, the economy was still shuddering from the effect of the Korean war so soon in the wake of WWII. I'm not an economist, and even they probably can't explain exactly what was going on, but in the early '50's a phone call, a soft drink, a Saturday movie, and bus fare typically cost a nickel (that's 5-cents for those not accustomed to our monetary units.) in the midwestern US. In early '52, I lived in NYC, having just immigrated from Germany, and later (June '52) in Oklahoma City. In '55, we moved to Denver, where things really didn't seem too different, at least from what I heard from parents, etc. By then some people did have electric dryers, though. Electric ranges were more common as well. Housing was typically on 1/4-acre lots in the suburbs and the usual 1/6-1/5 acre lots in the city. If you lived where lots were 1/3 acre, you were probably well-off. When I lived in Oklahoma City, my nearest playmate was a physician's son. The guy who lived across the street from him was the chief of the state's highway patrol. By 1960, the culture had changed so much that people in those positions wouldn't dream of living in the same neighborhood with "working folks" like my parents. What I'm getting at here, is that things were VERY different by 1960, than they had been seven or eight years before. If you were raised after '60, the world would have looked quite different than it did in the early '50's. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:51 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >> of the "average" American. First of all, it was over a month's pay for the >> average American, it was equivalent to six months' groceries for a family of >> four, and you could get a refrigerator or a washer, neither of which were >> routine discretionary expenditures for the "average" American of that time. >> That was during and immediately after the Korean war, when a 4-bedroom house >> on a 1/4-acre lot cost $4600. That same house, now, in California would >> cost you $4600 a month to rent. People's attitudes about what's important >> enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. > >The nubers you quote are not universal or reflected everywhere in the >US. > >On LI NY, 1960: > > My father made roughly 100$ take home. > My mother made 54$ as nurses aid. > My parent house cost $18,000 in 1957 (1/3 acre) > Neither car was never than three years old. > A washer was 110$ > A dryer (electric) was 122$ > Bazooka gum was 1 cent a piece > Weeks food from the A&P for 5 was ~33$ > The PDP-1 was considered groundbreaking for it's low > price of $120,000. > >By 1964 > > a 19 inch portable black and white TV was 120$ and still used > tubes. > >In 1971 > > A new chevy pickup was 2700$ > A used 8i system could be had for 2-3000 with peripherals(disks) > A new Cincinatti Milichron CM2000 basic machine was $2000. > >in short use real numbers. > >Allison >

27 years, 2 months

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Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases

by edick＠idcomm.com

Excellent suggestion! After you finish, try applying a coat of "Armor-All." Though that's another automotive product, it puts a coat of wax on the case so other forms of grime can be wiped off, and it gives the case a "new" feel. That all-too-common stain and stink from tobacco smoke, by the way, comes out easily with "409" cleanser. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney <af-list(a)lafleur.wfi-inc.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 11:01 AM Subject: Re: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases > >I use CitriSolv, a fairly common citrus-based solvent. It's not so nasty >to your skin or lungs, and treats most hard plastics and painted surfaces >gentle enough. It's the only thing that takes the Thrift Stores' sharpie >graffitti off of this stuff... > >Hope that helps, > >Aaron > >

27 years, 2 months

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Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases

by edick＠idcomm.com

A really fine-grit scouring powder like "Bon-Ami" might be what Hans wants to recommend. Those really tough plastic scouring sponges would be appropriate in most cases. You've got to be sure you don't scratch the surface, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 8:33 AM Subject: Re: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases > >> I've got a couple of Commodore PETs that need to be cleaned up. >> I'd like to restore them to like new condition...the only problem >> is some markings on the systems. > >> Any ideas on how to remove from the metal case (with damaging the >> painted surface underneath) >> - Spray paint (numbers) >> - Permanent magic marker (more numbers) > >Depending on the Modell - if it's one of the SK/LP/HP CBMs, >I recomend a ... ups, now I got problems since I don't know >exact american namings and brands - I would recomend ATA >(thats a brandname, but also used generic for most brands >of not aggressive Scheuerpulver (scpuring agent (?)) with >an aprobiate hard sponge (non metall), since the 'rough' >surface accepts microscratches, and the coulour used is >thick enough to allow this procedure - don't use any kind >of sandpaper. > >For Metall case PET/CBMs with the rough surface the same >method might be usefull, but you have to prpare the Scheuer- >pulver with water in a seperate place, to avoide the first, >hard contact - also add some sadditional soup and use a soft >sponge with less pessure - you might need to polish it later >on with polish materials for cars. > >For the smooth surface (early) models, I recomend only soap >and a sponge - and a real lot of rubbing. Also some helpers >as used for car paint refurbishing are usefull. > >All this will only work to remove non aggressive markers. >If the markers have interacted deeply with the paint, and >or if spray paint is used, you have to do an repaint job. >take a medium to fine Schmirgelpapier and remove the unwanted >paint, until is is completly gone - try to take of material >all over at the same rate. if done well it might be enough >original paint still on the surface that you only need to >add a new gloss-paint layer - if not, considere to unpaint >whole case and give it to a car painting company for the >job to do it (including new paint of course. > >The main problem is that you have to prepare all parts the >same way, since it would look terrible if only one side of >the pet is 'redone' > >Gruss >H. >(There has been an Idea of a workshop on Computer cleaning >vor VCF 3.0 - Sallam ?) > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK

27 years, 2 months

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Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases

by edick＠idcomm.com

Try benzene (mine came from an art-supply house under the trade name "BESTINE" which is used for removing tape residue.) This may not work on all paints and markers, but it surely does a nice job on the tape and other adhesives used to attach property tags and the like. I've removed some "magic-marker" from plastic cases, but marker and paing sometimes interact with the plastic, in which case you may have a more serious problem. It's just cosmetic, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Chandra Bajpai <cbajpai(a)mediaone.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 7:05 AM Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases > >I've got a couple of Commodore PETs that need to be cleaned up. >I'd like to restore them to like new condition...the only problem >is some markings on the systems. > >Any ideas on how to remove from the metal case (with damaging the >painted surface underneath) > - Spray paint (numbers) > - Permanent magic marker (more numbers) > >Thanks, >Chandra > >

27 years, 2 months

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VAXBar

by bruce.a.lane＠boeing.com

Ok... this one has to be seen to be believed, and that's all I'm going to say about it. ;-) http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~vance/www/vaxbar.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- NOTE: The views expressed are mine alone, and do NOT necessarily represent the views of the Boeing Company, its management or employees. Bruce Lane, Alpha Geek and Laptop Fixer, Boeing Aircraft & Missiles, Operations, Kent Space Center West, 18-04.2 / G1 -- M/S 8K-45 (253) 773-8576laneb(a)bcstec.ca.boeing.com "...One harried engineering tech masquerading as a computer support guy..."

27 years, 2 months

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

This "#@$&*() bull," was part of the party line presented by a DEC sales team at a presentation I attended about fifteen years ago, on behalf of one of the "systems integration contractors" their policies were designed to support. The presenters routinely referred to their clever position in the government market in the terms I used. This was VERY consistent with the way other things appeared at that time. When I worked in other government-related environments, I also noted that, while Digital provided field service, they were not the vendor who provided the original hardware. I was persuaded by this and numerous other statements which had been made to the same effect, by others who worked with the DEC line. I always thought of this as a clever arrangement to ensure that the government got the pitch from their contractors as well as from DEC, and to ensure a sound common basis for DEC to interact with the various contractors with no risk to their business. Because DEC didn't provide the services that these contractors provided, they could be assured of lots of business with the gov because when a job went out for bids, nobody would base their bid on Honeywell or IBM because they provided services at no charge which DEC didn't, and therefore, although perhaps half a dozen entities would bid on a given job, they all would propose DEC equipment. This was at least in part because the same entities who would submit proposals also had people on the inside who wrote the specifications. This worked well for the gov as well as for their contractors. It also worked well for DEC. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter <pechter(a)pechter.dyndns.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:35 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >> They (DEC) wouldn't sell >> directly to the government because that required they let government >> auditors look at their books. There was too much risk that the word would >> leak out that their profit margins on their mini's were pretty generous. >> That would have led to competition, which they really never enjoyed. >> >> >> Dick > > >This is unadulterated #@$&*() bull. >And revisionist history with an agenda sucks. > >I take serious offence to this. DEC sold directly to the government. >They (the gov't) was their second largest customer when I was there >(behind the good old AT&T Ma Bell folks). I was a dedicated Field >service type at Fort Monmouth. I also did time as a government >contractor on projects. > >What are you basing this opinion on. > >Bill > >--- > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, > The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check.

27 years, 2 months

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(Fwd) Model 6000 Help Needed

by dlw＠trailingedge.com

I know there are some people here who have Model 16/6000s on the list. Can any of you help this guy out? You can email him directly. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Caleb Rawstron <CalebR(a)scfa.dst.ca.us> I am looking for Model 6000 equipment to get my ailing system up and running again. I need a complete 35 meg, MFM hard drive with power supply and data board. If you have one or know anyone who does I would really be interested in talking turkey or trade for other equipment. Desperate in California, Caleb A. Rawstron crawstrn(a)astreet.com or crawstrn(a)hotmail.com ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw(a)trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com

27 years, 2 months

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Collecting Computers: A Guide - the book.

by kstumpf＠unusual.on.ca

Thank you. The first printing of A Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique is just about sold out. There is at least one copy of the book in every country of Europe, plus copies all over Austrialia, Canada, and the U.S. of A. A few copies are still available through the Vintage Computer Festival - visit the VCF web site and support Sellam's work. You know that both the computer and antique industries highly recommended the book and many collectors took the time to provide feedback such as "I now know more about myself through your book." Collecting computers is good fun and perhaps a good thing to do. Up the old computer! By the way, will someone please tell me what a pentium is? Yours in good faith. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 .

27 years, 2 months

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

Yes, you're right, but the "video" is the stuff that comes out of the RS170A-compatible, and if you mean the "A" standard, then VERY roughly, indeed. It was more common to see the Apple-][ with a non-Apple monitor for a number of reasons. First, it's likely the monitor was an Apple afterthought. Second, what I remember seeing most was a small (often a Sanyo 9") monitor sitting atop the Apple computer, next to two floppy drives one atop the other. In any case the Apple monitor was too big for that application and it made the Apple not unlike the TRS-80, in that it consisted of too many pieces and took up too much desktop. Nevertheless, monitor or none, the VIDEO was "in there." Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 3:31 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s >> The Apple-][ most certainly did come with built-in Video. That's just about >> all that was built-in. > >Strange. Several of my friends bought them back in 1977, and they only >got a computer with an RS170A-compatible (roughly) output on an RCA jack, >which was intended for connection to a TV or monitor that was NOT supplied. > >My point was that the PDP-8/e with VT8-E that I had brought up earlier had >every bit as "real" a video output as the later systems that Lawrence wants >to designate as "first". > >> BTW, I just gave away one which had an APPLE brand >> monitor with it. > >Sure, but there weren't any Apple brand monitors in 1977. Apple didn't >even resell another brand of monitor at that time. > >I stand by my assertion that the PDP-8/e with VT8-E was a personal computer >with raster graphics. It was designed for use by one person, and was >inexpensive enough that a determined but not fabulously wealthy person could >buy one. A few people did. > >The VT05 that Allison mentioned was a raster display terminal, but did not >have graphics capabilities (even as an option). I've got one. I don't have >a VT8-E; since I can't seem to find one, I'd at least like to get some prints >and build one.

27 years, 2 months

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Ebay virus on the loose

by cmcmanis＠freegate.com

Forwarded without comment: http://www.tbtf.com/index.html --Chuck

27 years, 2 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by KFergason＠aol.com

In a message dated 4/21/99 6:09:47 PM Central Daylight Time, allisonp(a)world.std.com writes: > <Name a non-homebrew SC/MP based computer. > <(note, I believe one existed, but memory is fuzzy till i get home to > <the old magazines) > > Not including the three sold by National Semi or the ones that used the > 8073 SC/MP with a internal rom tiny basic(also sold be national)??? > > Allison > Yes, not including any by NS. I know they produced boards, just like most manufacturers did. DigiKey had something in their catalogs, but its been so long, I don't remember exactly what it was. (maybe just reselling the NS stuff?) Kelly

27 years, 2 months

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More 3rd Party DEC boards

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>>DILOG DQ342 >>Quad Height, has a 34 and a 10-pin connector > >I think this is a MSCP MFM disk controller (there was also a floppy-only >version.) Found it in the book - this is, indeed, the floppy-only version. Tim.

27 years, 3 months

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M9302 Capaciters

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

The 3 that are at the end of each chip - .01 disc The 4 at the end of the resistor rows marked 224 i.e. 0.22 IIRC without looking. The 2 in the middle of a row of resistors .001 disc The electrolytic in the middle 39 mfd at 10v. There is only 1 installed even though there is solder mask for 2. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 5:49 PM Subject: M9302 Capaciters >Well, in getting the area around the /44 cleared up I discovered that I've >got a M9302 after all, of course there is a reason that they weren't on my >inventory list. All the capaciters on the board are pretty well smashed. >The printed circuitry is also fairly badly corroded. > >I think I can probably get it cleaned up enough to use temporarily at >least, however, I need to know what size of caps I'm supposed to use (yes, >they're that badly smashed. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | >

27 years, 3 months

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M9302 Capaciters

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

Well, in getting the area around the /44 cleared up I discovered that I've got a M9302 after all, of course there is a reason that they weren't on my inventory list. All the capaciters on the board are pretty well smashed. The printed circuitry is also fairly badly corroded. I think I can probably get it cleaned up enough to use temporarily at least, however, I need to know what size of caps I'm supposed to use (yes, they're that badly smashed. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |

27 years, 3 months

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SUN tape drive was RE: Sun 1 question

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Aaron, It boots to the monitor prompt just fine but it won't boot from the hard drive. It may have been set up to boot from a LAN and just use the hard drive for local storage. I don't know enough about SUNs to know how to tell. Joe At 09:13 AM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote: >What do you need to get the IPC going? I've got a bunch of "extra" Sun >stuff around, so maybe I can help you get it going. > >Or is it something more like non-functioning hardware? Does it boot to the >monitor prompt? > >Aaron > >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > >> Aaron, >> >> Got it open. It has a Exabyte EXB-8505 drive in it. Don't know what >> I'll use it for. I haven't even been able to get my SUN IPC to boot yet. >> >> Thanks for the help. >> Joe > >

27 years, 3 months

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New toy, IBM 5140

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 99-04-22 20:15:58 EDT, you write: > I picked up a nice looking 5140 today, even has a very nice IBM matching > carrying case. The wall wart (ac adapter) though looks wrong, its IBM, but > its small ala 200 MA (I gotta read the numbers, sorry, but I wanted to post > about my new toy right away). > > Anybody have details on the AC adapter, i know its model 6820822 from a > dealer ad, but naturally they don't mention the output voltage etc. Looks > like a brick sized unit. > yes, it is size of a brick! mine says output15v dc 2.7A original memory size was 256k. how much memory does yours have? The machine actually has power management including standby. <!> Not many programs will run on it but nice to have 720k floppies though.

27 years, 3 months

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