- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hi william: In a message dated 7/2/99 11:25:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, aw288(a)osfn.org writes: > As one who has spend quite a bit of time in industrial environments, I > would say that MIS department was a bunch of Bozos for not getting > industrial machines. Basically ANY floppy that spends its life at a > loading dock is going to die very quickly, followed in short order by the > power supply and keyboard. Bozos, to say the least. But do you think that a bunch of mainframe guys in 1988 would listen to a lowly PC person? Besides, the IBM guys told them the PCs would be okay, and they had already spent $20 per unit on those plastic prophylactic keyboard skins . . . ;>) After IBM replaced the drives with units which had the flap, they only croaked once a year instead of every three months . . . and always in the middle of reading disk three of a five disk software upgrade which I had sent them . . My most entertaining project ever. Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0

27 years

1
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DC Power supply question...duh...

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 7/2/99 6:47:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > Actually, a Williamson is a single-channel amplifier Man, I've _got_ to stop posting messages in the middle of the night, when I'm half asleep (as I am now ;>) A lot of Taiwanese jive, is what it boils down to. After playing around with a pair of "200W" speakers today, I'd estimate about 2.5W RMS per channel. > I don't own any such speakers, or indeed, a soundcard. Never seen the need for > > one... Me neither, except that I use the soundcard to transfer programs to cassette for use on my Timex/Sinclairs. > What I am asking for is _any_ kind of justification for the modern kind > of watt... The modern watts sell speakers. Our customers like to hear "big numbers," and don't have a clue as to what those numbers mean or how to verify them, whether it's in reference to watts, MHz, bps, RAM, cache, or disk storage. The box says 200 watts, and people like the look of them. That's my story and I'm sticking to it ;>) Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0

27 years

1
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State of the Hobby

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

On Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:50:16 +0100 (BST) ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: >Please remember that this list is international. And that not all of >us have well payed jobs, or even jobs at all. I couldn't consider >spending twice my _annual_ income on an Altair. Heck, I have to stop >and think before I spend my weekly income on common 8-bit micro. It won't belong before this condition will exist in the States as well. >> > IN the hobby I knew, money was only a very small part of the >> > equation. Used to be, all I needed was a few dollars, some basic >> > tools, and a little luck. Now I need *deep* pockets, too. I'm >> > upset that the 'elite' is putting my favorite passtime out of my reach. > >I think what a lot of us are saying is : > >At one time classic computers were cheap. Anyone could buy them _and_ >they weren't worth buying as an 'investment'. The only reason to buy >them was because you were seriously interested in the machines. Thank You. I *knew* there had to someone out there who actually understood my point. It dosen't surprise me it was someone outside the US. >> Its not the "elite" that have something about cornering the computer >> collectable field - it happens to ALL collectable fields. I have >> seen it happen in two related instances. > >As I have said before, Valve radio/audio was ruined for me when I >could no longer get an old set for a few _pence_ at a jumble sale. The same fate awaits many of us here in the Classic Computing community. Since many of you seem convinced that there is nothing that can be done, I shall publicly discuss this issue no further. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

27 years

1
0
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pdp11 schematics

by jbcqc＠qcunix1.acc.qc.edu

Do these exist, and if so, where can I get a copy (buy or xerox)? -- joe comunale /url> www.qc.edu/~hn8qc Queens College/OIT /off> 718-997-5919 unix/asst Sys Mgr /fax> 718-997-5678

27 years

4
4
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OT: A call to arms (sort of)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<What we need is the "Open Hardware" movement. What is Open Hardware? It is <a set of specifications for a computer and an interface system that anyone <can build processors, I/O, or accessories for without owing any taxes to <anyone. Or an older SS50, s100, Multibus, STDbus, Qbus, unibus, Omnibus, eurobus... system. < <However, ideally, this "open architecture" needs a bit of software already <available for it to get the movement off the ground. I suggest that the <PDP-11 could be that architecture for several reasons: < 1) It has lots of software available for it. < 2) It can be expressed in a single modern FPGA so processors < can be "home built" < 3) It has some pretty easy to use busses defined for it (Q-Bus, Unibus) Why roll your own when there are plenty of them cheap to free. Special hardware could be handy like a good IDEinterface or a really cheap SCSI. <Alternatively one could go with something like SPARC (which Sun alleges is <open but I have my doubts) Too highend. Allison

27 years

2
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OT: A call to arms (sort of)

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

Q: Name the one thing that Classic Computers have that modern computers lack? A: Adequate documentation to write your own system level software on them! What we need is the "Open Hardware" movement. What is Open Hardware? It is a set of specifications for a computer and an interface system that anyone can build processors, I/O, or accessories for without owing any taxes to anyone. However, ideally, this "open architecture" needs a bit of software already available for it to get the movement off the ground. I suggest that the PDP-11 could be that architecture for several reasons: 1) It has lots of software available for it. 2) It can be expressed in a single modern FPGA so processors can be "home built" 3) It has some pretty easy to use busses defined for it (Q-Bus, Unibus) Alternatively one could go with something like SPARC (which Sun alleges is open but I have my doubts) Comments? --Chuck

27 years

3
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PC form factor

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<>As Richard said filtered air in the intake, board mounted vertical, <>orientation of plug in boards in line with primary airflow. < <That makes sense, except for the board mounted vertical. Why that? If the fan fails convection flow is helpful. Actually vertical with airflow from bottom to top works well. Allison

27 years

3
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Fwd: Dec DELNI, and doc's

by Mzthompson＠aol.com

Anybody interested in these, please respond to him directly. Mike >Subject: Dec DELNI, and doc's >From: John Isenhour <isenhour(a)uiuc.edu> >Date: Fri, 02 July 1999 09:50 AM EDT >I have a DEC DELNI that I no longer need, if this is something you could >use make an offer. >Also new set of VMS manuals (not the grey wall but the newer one's that >fit it a box - I'll have to look at version) free to good home for >shipping.

27 years

1
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Local bus schedule

by mranalog＠home.com

A couple of people mentioned the SS50 bus, but they should have also mentioned the SS30 bus because they go together. Other well known micro buses not mentioned would include the TRS-80 Model 1 expansion bus and the 50 pin Sorcerer S-100 expansion bus. Some of these micro buses also have different versions. The S-100 bus was used (and IMHO abused :) for about 7 years before it was locked down to a standard. There is an extended Benton Harbor Bus which is easily identified as a double row of pins, instead a single row of pins. --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ====================================================

27 years

2
1
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Surplus finds

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Today, having the day off, I went Surplus crawling, over to a place I used to work at in the late 70's. It has shrunk from those wonderful days, but a lot of Stuff remains nonetheless. I found a Teletype 33ASR with a full roll of paper tape left in it, and a Wilson Labs MWX-1000 SMD disk tester/execiser. I had to pay more than I thought the Wilson box was worth, because it 'looks cool' and they thought it would make a nice movie prop... which I guess it would. *I*, on the other hand, think it would make an even nicer SMD disk tester, so I rescued it. Aside from some bits and pieces, I saw nothing worth taking home, save for a DEC Punch/Reader in a rack that got smashed, wedging the unit so I couldn't get to it, though it looked to be in good shape other than the rack rails being bent. I know where it is, if someone is looking for one, I could go back and pry it out of it's nest. Now to blow the warehouse dust out of the Teletype and get it working... Cheers John

27 years

1
0
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PC form factor

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I'm wondering: was the IBM PC the first machine with PSU in the rear <right, drives in the front right, motherboard in rear left, or did they <borrow this design from someone else? I don't think it was borrowed as much as there are few choices when you put most of the meat on one card. Packaging hardware is an older art than the PC. Personally it was a horrid layout with poor airflow for cooling. Allison

27 years

3
4
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Keyboard repair parts?

by arfonrg＠texas.net

Anyone know where to find keyboard repair parts for old 8-bit machines? Any good mail-order stores? Anyone remember the makers of the keyboards, switches, and/or key caps and color names? (I remember that Cherry made the TRS-80s keyboards.) ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html

27 years

4
4
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PC form factor

by edick＠idcomm.com

Those perforations which many people ended up using for an additional speaker were actually intended as a feeble attempt at encouraging airflow through the vertically mounted cards. Those, if you remember, were full-length back in those days, and because of that fact would have benefitted had there actually been enough pressure difference between outside and inside to cause the air to flow substantially. IBM had people who were really worried about noise, hence wouldn't put a meaningful fan in the box. That little thing in the PSU (which dies more often than any other single component in any PC) won't move enough air to cool things much. It will move enough air to load everything in the box with dust, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 2:36 PM Subject: Re: PC form factor >> Ah, yes, the airflow issue again. What would you change to improve >> airflow? > >As Richard said filtered air in the intake, board mounted vertical, >orientation of plug in boards in line with primary airflow. > >Allison >

27 years

1
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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hello Tony: In a message dated 7/1/99 5:07:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > Admission time... I have quite a collection of home computers as well, Ha! I _knew_ it!! ;>) >> Why do the Brits hate the BBC Micro? > No idea. In fact I didn't know we did Must just be the ZX Brits I usually hang around with . . . > Hmm... Unix came out first on a PDP7, but later versions ran on the > PDP11. I am not sure where C came in all this, but there are certainly > PDP11 versions. > I've never heard of either fitting on a PDP8. See -- I told you I was ignorant of these machines . . . > BTW, you can get a license from SCO for the old PDP11 unices (source code > :-)) for $100 for home use only. Nice to know they're still available. $100 seems fair. Anyway, thanks for all the great information re large computers. For years I've read about them and used code which was developed on them, but I've never seen or touched one. Any tips on where to stumble onto some of this gear, other than just hanging around universities, waiting for them to throw something out? Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0

27 years

2
1
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PC form factor

by edick＠idcomm.com

Since most folks are right-handed, having the drives on the right is pretty reasonable. The physical design was allegedly patterened after the pple-][ whose market IBM coveted. The concept of easily installable expansion cards on an open bus with I/O connectors in the rear did evolve there, though not in Apple's products. Several companies saw the light and put connectors on the back of their Apple computers using a separate bracket. IBM saw the problem that caused once your computer got rather full, since each card so equipped would require, essentially, two slots. The Apple-][ had its supply on the left and had no internal drives. I don't remember whether the Apple III had internal drives. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 8:10 PM Subject: PC form factor >Hi, >I'm wondering: was the IBM PC the first machine with PSU in the rear >right, drives in the front right, motherboard in rear left, or did they >borrow this design from someone else? > >--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power >

27 years

6
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State of the Hobby

by edick＠idcomm.com

I agree with this one! There's no need for a "starter-outer" regardless of his/her current station in life to go after an Imsai or (much worse) an ALTAIR, when those machines weren't that well designed and weren't that well supported. If one wants to start out with an S-100, he should get hold of a widely used, common and therefore likely to be inexpensive, mainframe, or at least backplane, then do the same for known-to-be-compatible memory, CPU, and controller cards, a power supply, and a terminal or PC with a working terminal program and a couple of 8" floppy disk drives. Unfortunately, the presence of the PC with its virtually plug-and-play (chuckle) readily available boards and the MAC with it's even less difficult to set up peripherals, have led the world to believe that devices should just naturally play together. Anyone who's worked with DEC equipment knows that isn't true. Once upon a time, I worked for a DEC-addicted client whose system required redundant PDP11-44's. The DEC folks would deliver the hardware on one day, set up the first rack the second day, get the basic hardware to run on the third, and then one or two days at a time, get the rest to work together. Then there was the second rack . . . Now, even though the two machines had been specifically ordered to be "identical in every way" at a considerable premium, it was not unusual for the DEC folks to have to swap each rack in its entirety several times before they actually had two from which you could extract a board and exchange it with the corresponding board in the other and not have both machines fall apart. Usually, while this was happening, the other 30 or so of us were in day-for-day schedule slip. On the S-100 bus, there were lots of board which worked just fine together. Unfortunately, there were others which did not. The earlier the vintage, the less likely that they'd be particularly interoperable with other manufacturers' equipment. This applied as much to backplanes and serial port boards as to CPU's, memory and FDC's. If a beginner has a few fairly widely used boards, it's likely he can get some help from the guys on this list or from the fellows in the CP/M newsgroup. If he has an Altair, that number is greatly reduced. Nonetheless, if a fellow has an Altair, that's normally the one he wants to get running, irrespective of the associated problems. Suggestions abound, of course, but solid help from experienced users is scarce because there weren't many. What I want to know is why a beginner would want to run old hardware if he doesn't know anything about hardware in general and the general class of hardware with which he's dealing in particular. I can understand it if he used the stuff when he was a pup, or if his father had one. What I read here, however, is mostly stuff from people who have gotten a few pieces of gear for next to no money and expect that since they've got the "big" bits they won't need to spend much more. Unfortunately, that's seldom the case. I read lots of prose from people who've got lots of pieces of lots of systems but haven't a clue what, exactly, is necessary in order to make any of the stuff "do something." Why do you suppose this is? Dick -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:37 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >> OKay, $500 or $1000 is alot less than the $4k+ these things >> cost when they were new, but $500 is *still* alot of money for >> most people, certainly for one who's just starting out. > >It may be alot for someone starting out, sure, but then someone starting >out might not want to go for the cream. That might be aiming just a bit >too high. > >> As I said, that's still alot of money. The cool thing about this >> hobby was that you didn't need alot to get cool stuff. That's >> starting to change. > >For starting? No. Despite all of the talk about the $510 Mac, there are >bushels of machines that are in the under $50 category - some pretty darn >nice ones, too. This seems to be like the press reporting about >multi-million dollar personal injury lawsuits - they really are rarer >than hens teeth, but the newspeople make it sound like it happens all of >the time. There will always be very affordable classic computers - only >the creme will go ballistic. > >William Donzelli >aw288(a)osfn.org

27 years

5
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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.#

by peter.pachla＠vectrex.freeserve.co.uk

Hi, >> P.S.: If you continue, I might be interested in getting a PERQ :) > >You should be. It's an interesting machine. Just be warned that >microcoding is addictive... You've certainly piqued my interest.... :-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla(a)virgin.net | peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla(a)wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk --

27 years

2
1
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Keyboard repair parts?

by Innfogra＠aol.com

In a message dated 7/2/99 8:07:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, arfonrg(a)texas.net writes: > > Anyone know where to find keyboard repair parts for old 8-bit machines? > Any good mail-order stores? > I have some old keyboards. What are you looking for? Paxton

27 years

1
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subscribe

by estechmann＠abivest.com

-- Eric Stechmann Direct: +1 (651) 234-1217 Software Critter Fax: +1 (651) 490-1484 American Biosystems, Inc. E-mail: estechmann(a)abivest.com 20 Yorkton Court URL: www.abivest.com St.Paul MN 55117 The program said "Requires Windows 9* or better" so I bought a Macintosh.

27 years

2
1
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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hi Scott: In a message dated 6/30/99 7:04:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scott(a)saskatoon.com writes: > > Other than the Timex/Sinclairs, what's the cheapest machine which was > > available in 1982 that I could have used to learn BASIC and assembler and > > machine code -- at home? > > VIC-20. I bought mine for $600CDN in either 1981 or 1982 (not sure) My point exactly -- in '82 $100 US was no sweat, but $500 US was more than I could afford. So, my choice, again, was crap computer or no computer. > I hope this doesn't really sway the argument either way. I'm really > neutral on the subject. Some people collect PDP-8s, some people collect > what's 'popular', as for me, I'm still looking for a VIC-1540 because I > could never afford one back in the early 80s. And some of us are sentimental old fools who just collect for purely sappy reasons. In Feb '99, I hadn't seen or thought about a Timex/Sinclair for 13 years. One day I found the manual while cleaning out a closet (computer long since lost or given away). I did a web search and was _floored_ to find an intensely active international user community still supporting these critters. This led me to another discovery: development of the ZX81 platform continues. Examples are: bumping the tape transfer rate from native 300 bps to 4800 bps _using_software_. Efficient BASIC and FORTH compilers. Hi-res graphics utilizing non-volatile memory (the ZX81 inventor, Sir Clive Sinclair, repeatedly stated that this was impossible). IDE hard drive and floppy drive i/fs. RAM expansion to 1 MB. I.e., developments by users which go completely beyond what was originally imagined by the makers of the ZX81. Sincere question: is this also the case with the larger machines which are being collected/restored? Has anyone figured out how to connect (for example) a Snappy to a PERQ? No disrespect intended, as I have nothing but admiration for folks who take the huge amount of time & trouble to revive a PDP-8 or 370, but it appears to me (and I'm new here, so don't clobber me too badly) that "big" classic computer collectors take pride in returning a machine to its original condition, whereas the ZX81 crowd is by and large more interested in "how can I make this thing act more like a 'real' computer." Anyway, when I began to collect them, I had no idea they were "popular." > Also, back to the question above, I think by 1982 we might also have had > the Atari400. The C64 must have been around this time too. Probably the > Coco as well. Really, 1982 is pretty close to the start of the 8bit > explosion. CoCo I'm not sure of (without checking), 400 & C64 yes. But, all of these sold for many times the cost of a ZX81. Additionally, none of the above have that perfect wedge shape, which really does make a perfect door-stop. ;>) Regards & thanks for your input, Glen Goodwin A Fledgling Collector 0/0

27 years

4
3
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Commodore Equipment Available

by mcquiggi＠sfu.ca

Thanks Dallas, I have forwarded this to the classiccmp mailing list, for those Commodore enthusiasts. Anyone interested, get back to me or Dallas and we will hook you up with the originator, Otto Brandt. Kevin At 07:33 PM 99/07/01 -0800, you wrote: >Hi Kevin .. a forwarded message which you might be interested in: > > >>From : Otto Brandt >To : Dallas Hinton >Subj : Log-off comment > >Would you or anyone you know be interested in Commodore equipt, eg >1571, 1581 floppies, wide carriage printer, CBM 128, color monitor mostly >working (some keys and contacts might have oxide problems due to lack of use) >I am asking for a friend >Cheers, Dallas > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca

27 years

1
0
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PC form factor

by edick＠idcomm.com

That's quite correct. It was a stupid, Stupid, STUPID plan exhausting air >from the PC and drawing air through all the front-loading devices, e.g disk drives, etc. That prevented a nice sensible filtering scheme like many people have implemented by adding a fan to the PSU after reversing the fan that's in there. They sandwich a filter between the fans to offset the head loss due to the filter. This keeps the power supply components much cleaner, as well as keeping the dust from settling so quickly on internal components. The cooling is substantially improved and the dust accumulation is decimated. All this extends the life of not only the power supply, but the active components in the PC as well, as the heat transfer is more efficient when laminar flow at the component surfaces isn't hampered by dust most of the time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 8:52 PM Subject: Re: PC form factor ><I'm wondering: was the IBM PC the first machine with PSU in the rear ><right, drives in the front right, motherboard in rear left, or did they ><borrow this design from someone else? > >I don't think it was borrowed as much as there are few choices when >you put most of the meat on one card. Packaging hardware is an >older art than the PC. > >Personally it was a horrid layout with poor airflow for cooling. > >Allison >

27 years

3
2
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State of the Hobby

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<get running, irrespective of the associated problems. Suggestions abound, <of course, but solid help from experienced users is scarce because there <weren't many. Even then the suggestions would involve mods that some may be too timid to undertake. Altair in the s100 realm is the worst first machine to tackle. The IMSAI is a stable machine next to it. <What I want to know is why a beginner would want to run old hardware if he <doesn't know anything about hardware in general and the general class of <hardware with which he's dealing in particular. I can understand it if he It's called clue impaired, they assembled a PC and they like you said think S100 or maybe a Straight -8 should be trivial as it's from the dark ages when they didn't have complicated stuff. <Why do you suppose this is? If you have a good answer, write a book. ;) Personally I believe it's a total lack of knowledge and therefore they don't have the first clue many of the early hobby machines of the altair ilk were "engineers toys" or at least damm sharp techie types that werent afraid to read a few books. Look at COMP.OS.CPM and you have someone looking for z80 data in electronic form, one wonders if a library is near his home. I will not speak of the damage done by the unknowing that cant solder either or think a hotter iron will help the solder stick. Allison

27 years

2
1
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FW: Looking for REAL old parts (IBM 5155 + 5170)

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

If anyone feels like helping this fellow out, please reply directly. Thanks! -=-=- <break> -=-=- On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 22:16:34 +0200, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc you wrote: >>From: Dennis Mulleneers <dennis.mulleneers(a)wxs.nl> >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc >>Subject: Looking for REAL old parts (IBM 5155 + 5170) >>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 22:16:34 +0200 >>Organization: Planet Internet >>Lines: 20 >>Message-ID: <377BCCA2.2C7DDEAC(a)wxs.nl> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: mt0385-2.dial.wxs.nl >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>X-Trace: reader3.wxs.nl 930860130 3815417 195.121.189.129 (1 Jul 1999 20:15:30 GMT) >>X-Complaints-To: abuse(a)wxs.nl >>NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jul 1999 20:15:30 GMT >>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5 i686) >>X-Accept-Language: en >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!news-sea-20.sprintlink.net!news-west.sprintlink.net!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news-ge.switch.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.unisource.nl!gate.news.unisource.nl!news.wxs.nl!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc:436 >> >>Hi there, >> >>I'm looking for some parts to restore some old IBM PC's (for my >>collection)... >> >>IBM 5155: >>- original screws (those blue colored internal screws) >>- original backplates (6 pcs, to cover the holes of the exp. slots) >>- TWO ORIGINAL 5.25" inch diskdrives (360Kb Half Height. I tink they're >>black) >> >>IBM 5170: >>- original screws to close the case (the five big hexheaded ones) >>- original cork "feet" for the case >>- also about 7 pcs of the backplates to cover the holes of the exp. >>slots >> >>I hope someone can get me these things.....TIA >> >>Dennis :-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."

27 years

2
1
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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hey Hans! In a message dated 7/1/99 2:56:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de writes: > P.P.S.: and speaking of _great_ ideas without big impact (beside > technology) - I'm still looking for a well maintained, > but cheap C-5 You really know your Sinclairs! A C5? Really??? I'm too old to push the pedals when going uphill . . . BTW, thanks for the nice defense of the Sinclair line and its international clones. Did you know that a Spectrum clone is still being manufactured in Russia? Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0

27 years

2
1
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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.#

by edick＠idcomm.com

sounds like a quote from me . . . the mouse I got back in '82 or so was, in fact a SUN mouse. It used TTL levels rather than RS-232, but the optical pad was the same I was later used to seeing at the SUN workstations. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 11:25 PM Subject: Re: Article about collecting in Antique Trader.# > > >Glenatacme(a)aol.com wrote: >> >> > I was given my first Mouse Systems >> > Optical Mouse back in '82. >> >> That reminds me, I have a functional one from about '85 -- maybe I'll put it >> on Ebay: >> >> Genuine Collectors Item -- RARE pre-Windows optical mouse > >I understand the optical pads for the Sun Mouse Systems mice are somewhat >difficult to find. Is it possible the pads are the same?

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PC form factor

by edick＠idcomm.com

I was acquainted with a couple of guys from the Niwot plant (IBM) who were temporarily assigned to BOCA for the PC development effort. The company actually gathered quite a number of hobbyists to see what information they could get from them. Apparently they didn't listen too well. Back in '81, when the PC came out, it was pretty widely believed that IBM had gotten the form factor for its cards and the notion of packaging for I/O in the way they used from the Apple-][. It (Apple) was, after all, the most successful single company in the personal computer market and seizing a major share of the desktop market. Their approach wasn't a bad one from the I/O convenience standpoint. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 9:09 PM Subject: Re: PC form factor >On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, William Donzelli wrote: > >> > Since most folks are right-handed, having the drives on the right is pretty >> > reasonable. The physical design was allegedly patterened after the >> > pple-][ whose market IBM coveted. >> >> I really doubt that they looked at Apple for the design. IBM has pretty >> much been on top of the pile as far as ergonomics and ease of maintenance >> since the 1950s. Sure, the PC is not exactly their shining moment, but it >> does show some thought for a design with a low production cost in mind. > >Acually, there are rumors abound that IBM modeled the PC after the >successful Apple ][. But, rhey are just rumors and anecdotes passed >around like those in Dick's message. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 05/25/99] >

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.#

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hello Richard: In a message dated 7/1/99 7:47:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, edick(a)idcomm.com writes: > I was given my first Mouse Systems > Optical Mouse back in '82. That reminds me, I have a functional one from about '85 -- maybe I'll put it on Ebay: Genuine Collectors Item -- RARE pre-Windows optical mouse ;>) Glen Goodwin 0/0

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hey Tony: In a message dated 7/1/99 5:13:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > I started on an MK14. It took me many years to figure out that darn > manual. And the hardware design was somewhat clueless (hint : A 74157 is > a multiplexer. A 74175 is a latch. Using the former as a latch is > possible, but not a good idea if you want to avoid timing problems. Guess > what this machine did...) What's really amazing about the MK14 design is that the original, which Clive bought from one of his buddies, was never used. Your MK14 was in fact designed by National Semi. They convinced Clive that it would be cheaper and more efficient if the kit used more NS components, and they offered to provide the design free, if he signed an exclusive contract. Glen Goodwin 0/0

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IBM 5150 XT

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< 1. If the IBM 5150 XT computer came with documentation Yes, a hell of a lot more than current hardware does. < 2. Is an IBM monitor, model # 5153 (Personal Computer Color Display) is <compatible with an IBM 5150 XT? likely. < 3. What kind of monitor (graphics array) is an IBM 5153. I would guess <EGA, but don't know. That would be CGA. Pick up a copy (old one if possible) of the QUE publications _Upgrading and Repairing PCs. Most of the editions were very IBM centric and useful as reference. I keep a 3rd ed. for looking up connectors, drives and the like. You have better luck fining it in a library or used book shop than on the WWW. Allison

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State of the Hobby

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off a <> $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that wa Aas someone that placed that order asap back when, that was several months savings! the new ford truck (F250 4x4 pickup) was only $2700. and it would take weeks to make it do something. later more money to replace the damm S4Ks with 88MCDs and again with seals 8k static. <Which may very well prove one point being brought up, that some people are <not collecting to use or preserve, but merely to display and trophy. or worse they havent a clue what is important save for a few names. <> When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. Th <> last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, a <> typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the same, an <> terminal cost $750. When? In 1977 it's was more like(8080 or z80/2mhz) $399 by 1979 it was 299 and 4mhz z80, 81 a cpu board had z80b ram, rom serial and floppy at $599. hard to compare apples and oranges. <Yeah, but today I can get a 3.5" floppy drive that holds more data and is <faster, for $35. I can get a Pentium-II CPU at 350Mhz for certainly less <than $250, and a floppy controller is built into the motherboard I buy for <under $100. So how does your price comparison stand up now? cost of technology has dropped without question. My first SRAM was 1uS 1101 part (256x1) at $9.95, a bargan then. Later it would be 2102 at $16.00 a pop. Now 16mb is $16! the funny twist is if I wasted to make a s100 card around said 16mb dram it would still cost $$$. Allison

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State of the Hobby

by edick＠idcomm.com

See embedded comments below, plz Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 8:08 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> This argument is getting to where it's pretty silly. >> >> I don't see how anyone can complain about buying used computer hardware for >> considerably less than it cost when new. > >It's called "inflation". Look it up. > Nope, Sam, once again you demonstrate your proclivity to yack before you look. Inflation would make the current price HIGHER. That's why a $1 item, so priced in 1967, costs over $3 today, and, in some cases, >$4. Perhaps you need to look it up. > >> The mythical "free Altair" which pops up again and again is generally sold, >> even in "better than new" (properly assembled and functional) condition for >> significantly less than what it cost new, in "real" dollars. -- YES -- even >> on eBay! > >Would you buy a 1967 model Beetle for what a 1999 model costs? > If, as is the case with many "antique" computers, it is, in fact in better condition than when it was new, having been properly assembled, all the routing errors on the PCB corrected, and proved running. If it had been as well preserved as may computers I've seen dating back to then, I'd probably say "yes." Naturally, the fact that nothing built in Mexico with the shoddy quality control standards they must have to use to get anything from their assembly lines approved at all, makes me wonder whether I'd want one of the new ones at all. In '67, I bought a VW beetle for just under $1300. They cost significantly more than that here in the US, but I was in Germany. If I encountered one in like-new condition, in like-new state of wear, with all the features intact, it would probably never be offered for anything nearly so low as the '99's. > >> In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at >> $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was >> in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. I'm >> presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 each, >> functionally tested and aligned, plus the estimated cost of packaging and >> shipping, since I don't want more work on top of the alignment and testing, >> estimated by Mailboxes, etc, which is where I'll have them boxed and >> shipped. I've offered these same drives to people, as is, for just the cost >> of shipping, and most wouldn't pay even for the shipping. > >Which may very well prove one point being brought up, that some people are >not collecting to use or preserve, but merely to display and trophy. > >Still, your price comparisons are nonsense. > >> When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. The >> last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, a >> typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the same, and a >> terminal cost $750. > >Yeah, but today I can get a 3.5" floppy drive that holds more data and is >faster, for $35. > I don't doubt that. Most anyone else could buy them for the normal market price of $22. Nevertheless, what would you have to pay to get an 8" drive today? The 3.5" drive may be better, but can't read 32-sector hard-sectored media very well. Nor can it read the venerable IBM 3740-formatted diskettes which were standard distribution media for CP/M. > > I can get a Pentium-II CPU at 350Mhz for certainly less >than $250, and a floppy controller is built into the motherboard I buy for >under $100. So how does your price comparison stand up now? > >P.S. It would be nice if you'd edit the superfluous quoted reply out of >your message before sending it. Bandwidth is a precious commodity in >third world countries. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 05/25/99] >

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State of the Hobby

by edick＠idcomm.com

This argument is getting to where it's pretty silly. I don't see how anyone can complain about buying used computer hardware for considerably less than it cost when new. The mythical "free Altair" which pops up again and again is generally sold, even in "better than new" (properly assembled and functional) condition for significantly less than what it cost new, in "real" dollars. -- YES -- even on eBay! The typical PDP8 owned by persons in this particular interest group were certainly not purchased for what they cost new, even in inflated dollars, so I really can't see what the complaint is. Sure, some people are able, and, some, misguided though they may seem to be, even willing to pay more than I think they should for a given item. To them, I sell what I can. In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 each, functionally tested and aligned, plus the estimated cost of packaging and shipping, since I don't want more work on top of the alignment and testing, estimated by Mailboxes, etc, which is where I'll have them boxed and shipped. I've offered these same drives to people, as is, for just the cost of shipping, and most wouldn't pay even for the shipping. When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. The last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, a typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the same, and a terminal cost $750. If people wanted more than that for these devices, even though they were in perfectly functional and cosmetically perfect condition, I could understand the complaints. I won't be convinced that the prices being paid at auction, publicity or not, for "old, used, obsolete" computers or component are unreasonable until someone shows me a similarly pristine '55 Thunderbird that's going unsold because its price is over half what it cost new. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey l Kaneko <jeff.kaneko(a)juno.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 10:36 AM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >This will draw alot of flames, and may upset certain people. >Please send personal attacks to me directly. > >On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:20:38 -0700 Kai Kaltenbach <kaikal(a)MICROSOFT.com> >writes: >> Classic computer collecting is rewarding on so many levels. And in >> so many senses, we have a collector community relationship that rivals >those >> of much more established hobbies. That's why it's so important, as the > >> hobby begins to reach maturity, that we not lose sight of our >fundamentals. > >But you've missed the one 'fundamental' that uniquely gives our hobby >its true appeal: Our hobby exists (existed) purely for its own sake. >No strings, wire, or unneeded baggage. It existed purely for the joy >of computing at its most base level, and the aquisition of knowledge >of the science. > >> Lately, there has been a disturbing trend towards isolationism and >> elitism among our flock, up to and including outright hostility. This >has >> got to stop. > >Hostile? Yer damned right. We're on the defensive now. The >'marketplace' >is poised to fundamentally change what I perceive as the original charter >of the computing hobby. > >> Now, as Dennis Miller says, I don't want to get off on a rant here. >> As much as anyone else, I'd like a world full of retired aerospace >> engineers with garages full of free Altairs. I'd also like the IRS >> to abolish my income taxes and give me a free Ferrari. It's just not >> going to work that way, folks. > >You hit a raw nerve here, buddy boy. I don't *want* garages of free >Altairs (or whatever). All I want is to be able to purchase the material > >that is of interest to me at a *reasonable* price. Now the retired >Aerospace >Engineer thinks he can make a fortune off his old computers. Piss. > >> Lashing out at people who want to publicize our hobby is like >> sitting in the nosebleed section of your hometown baseball stadium >> and hoping to god that your team loses big so you can afford better >> tickets next year. > >This to me, clearly says you have no clue as to what is at stake here. >>From my perspective, it's more like lashing out at land speculators >who want to parcel out what was once tribal land, the parcels by the >lake commanding the highest prices. What was once an almost free and >accessable resource, now belongs only to the elite who can pay the price. > > >> Get OVER it. Nobody understands our hobby, it's next to impossible to >> properly insure, > >Insure. Huh, yeah right. Why would you want to insure something unless >you spent BIG BUCK$ on it? > >> there's far too little real museum space devoted to >> classic computers, > >Whaddaya mean by 'real museum space'?!? You mean like in the Deutsche >Museum? The LA Museum of Sci & Ind.? The Guggenheim?!?! Tell ya what. >When these 'heavies' get real serious about computing engines built >during *my* lifetime, I'm outta here. No way I'll be able to afford it >then. > >> hundreds of historic pieces are being tossed in the >> dumpster every day, > >As tragic as this situation is, ss long as the possibility for this >exists, there will be hope for the hobbyist with little or no money >(this includes *most* of our young people). > >> and you want to keep the whole thing a big in-clique secret. >> Does this make any freaking sense to you? > >Yes. This hobby is what it is because it was populated almost >exclusively >by what I will refer to as 'true believers': Guys with little (or no) >money but alot of patience and a solid *commitment* to make the machines >live. > >Now there are amongst us speculators who don't truly believe; >they don't practice the true faith, and don't care to. All they >know is that computers have become a 'hot' collectible, and they want >a piece of the action. It is these that we must oppose. > >> Every time I hear somebody say something like, "Are you going to >> sell that to a REAL collector at a decent price or are you going to >> WHORE it on EBAY?" I just want to gag. > >I see the prices, and *I* just want to gag. The continued exposure >of our hobby on forums like E-BAy will only cause prices to rise. Very >soon, many of us will be priced out . . . > >> Amazing as this may seem, the people on eBay deserve this stuff as >> much as you do, mr. nose-in-the-air elitist. > >Maybe they do. But they have the money; many of us 'tribesmen' don't. >It seems you've mis-applied the 'eliteist' label, in this case. > >> Oh sure, who wouldn't want to buy the thing at a token "collector >price" >> and save a bunch of money, but don't make the seller feel like an ass >> because he wants to participate in a free-market economy. > >We can't stop folks from auctioning off stuff on e-bay; that's their >right. ALl I know is, is that prices are going up, and e-bay isn't >helping the matter. As far as I'm concerned, E-Bay is hurting our >hobbyist 'way of life', not enhancing it. > >> And quit calling the people on eBay "morons". OK, sure, the guy who >> bid $510 for the "signature Macintosh" was a few cans short of a >> six-pack, but if you bothered to follow up on the auction, you'd notice > >> that most of the bidders pulled out once they caught a clue. And > >I try to ignore some of the stupidity on this planet. Fortunately, >there are still (for the moment) plenty of cheap MAC's to go around. > >> everybody who pays what YOU consider a high price for a genuinely >> interesting piece of hardware is not an idiot. People pay money for >> something because they want it. So, you're basically upset that >> somebody wants it more than you do? > >SO you're convinced that someone with a pile of money to throw at >a 'hobby' simply wants it more than someone who's broke??!! Sheesh. >It must be nice to rich, so you feel justified in making implications >like that. > >IN the hobby I knew, money was only a very small part of the equation. >Used to be, all I needed was a few dollars, some basic tools, and a >little luck. Now I need *deep* pockets, too. I'm upset that the >'elite' is putting my favorite passtime out of my reach. > >> And while we're at it, what's with all this "some rich bastard >> overbid me" crap. If I went through all the classiccmp posts about >rich >> executives, rich internet IPO participants, rich employees of big >computer >> companies, and replaced all the occurrences of "rich" with "black" or >> "hispanic", the vintage computer festival would look like a Klan rally. > > >What can I say? This used to be a 'poor mans' hobby. I'm seeing one >segment being displaced and disenfranchised by another. Yep. > > "I'm the *angriest* computer nerd in America!" > >> America has always stood for a place where anybody can get rich if they > >> work hard enough. Are you upset that somebody else got there first? > >No, I'm upset that there is the pretense of a level playing field. >It *was* nearly level at one time. It isn't anymore. > >> There is a lot of assumption that, when someone pays a high price for >> a classic computer, that they A) don't know as much about it as you >> do, and B) don't care as much about it as you do, when the reverse is >> probably the case. Look, just because you refused that job opportunity > >> at Apple in 1983 because you thought the Lisa was a bomb and your >> business selling print drivers for daisywheels was doing so well, >> DOESN'T mean you're an idealist. > >All it means is that you were a little short-sighted. > >> Because somebody outbid you doesn't mean they deserve it less than >> you do. Maybe they have more cash, maybe they were just willing to bid >a >> higher perecentage of their income than you were. Heck, somebody with >cash >> probably is going to care for the item better. A good percentage of >> the purported idealists complaining about high classic computer prices >> have an Altair on their kitchen table with coffee mug rings on the top. > > >Gosh darnit, you got us there. Us pore folk generally don't have the >the fancy display and storage facilities as do our more well-heeled >bretheren. But then again, for us, these are objects of affection; we >like to keep them close to us (the kitchen or livingroom seems >appropriate). > >> Look, I'm impressed that you're reading this post through a custom >TCP/IP >> stack that you wrote for a Kaypro II. If you did that for the fun of >it, more >> power to you. If you think that doing your daily correspondence on a >dot >> matrix printer makes you a better classic computer collector than the >rest >> of us, that's something else. > >It doesn't make us better, just more joyful. > >> It's like that guy who coated the entire exterior of his 1952 >Oldsmobile >> with tiny rhinestones over a grueling 5-year period -- impressive, but >> the man obviously had too much time on his hands. > >But if it's something special to *him* isn't that part of what this hobby > >was (is) all about? > >> It is NOT necessary to have a Wozniak beard, live in a geodesic dome >> house, and drive a Volkswagen Thing to appreciate classic computers. > >Maybe not, but the way it's going, you'll have to be able to afford >the aforementioned house, and a *mint* example of the aforementioned >car before you can even *consider* having a classic computer for your >yourself. > >> Wake up, open up, embrace the world's coming to know our hobby. > >True believers only. Sorry. Greed and commercialism are threatening to >corrupt our 'society'. Maybe there's nothing we can do about it, >but we won't go quietly. . . > >> Because otherwise, one day you're going to wake up and find that not a >> single schoolchildren remembers any of this history, because somebody >> started making 6800 assembler coding an entrance requirement to the >museums. > >True believers will always welcome initiates. But only the truly >committed will mature and contribute. These are the ones who will >make our hobby live. If you shut these out by raising the price >of admission, then our hobby (as we now know it) will certainly die. > > >Jeff > > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hi Peter: In a message dated 7/1/99 10:58:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk writes: > Don't get me started on WIn'95....I've had several months of headaches caused > by THAT OS since I upgraded my PC. Sorry to hear it. 95 OSR2.x is actually a bit more stable than the earlier versions, so if you're running something prior to 2.0 you may want to upgrade again (can't believe I'm saying this . . .) People with (relatively) stable Win 95 PCs come into our shop every day wanting to move to 98, and when we ask them why they don't have an answer . . . this is a good indication of the mindset of the average PC user . . . > I'd be using Linux right now if I could get versions of the software > I > need to use for it. They'll be here soon, we hope . . . Thanks, Glen Goodwin 0/0

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hi Megan: Thanks for the note. I've written tons of code to interface PCs with "big" computers, but I've never had the opportunity to see any of them. Cool site! In a message dated 7/1/99 2:26:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mbg(a)world.std.com writes: > Check out the -8s on my collection page to get an idea of size (of > systems with peripherals -- remember, the cabs are 6' high). > > http://world.std.com/~mbg/home_systems.html Glen Goodwin 0/0

27 years

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Apple //e, TRS-80 M4, IBM xstation 120 & a Socrates toy.

by arfonrg＠texas.net

Hello all, Goodwill had a $20.00 grab fest yesterday and I snagged a haul including a bunch of Apple //e's, IBM Xstation 120, Atari 800 and a TRS-80 M4. Problem: A //e, Trs-80 M4: some of the key caps are broken on these, anyone know where I can find replacement parts? Atari 800: not broken, just missing the #8 keycap. Any clues for replacement? IBM Xstation: What is the processor? What OS does it run? The Socrates toy: I found one... I vaguely remember it from some years back... I gave it to a couple that seemed to want it badly. What is it's collectable significance? A ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html

27 years

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PC form factor

by max82＠surfree.com

Hi, I'm wondering: was the IBM PC the first machine with PSU in the rear right, drives in the front right, motherboard in rear left, or did they borrow this design from someone else? --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power

27 years

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State of the Hobby

by edick＠idcomm.com

Don't expect sympathy from any evolutionists . . . the inability to continue in life or in any other pursuit is simply a response to the need for certain characteristics. In this case, income. If your income fails to keep up with the cost of your hobby, you have little choice but to get another hobby . . . or perhaps a job which pays better so you can forestall the same extinction event a bit. It's not fair to expect the universe to look out for you personally. It's not the way of things that YOU or I, for that matter, get to set the price of commodities on the market, else I'd set the price of gold really low when I planned on buying and really high when I planned on selling. It won't be long before you, like others on this list expect not only to get things for no cost, but you'll soon want to be paid for taking them. Dick -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:23 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >> But you've missed the one 'fundamental' that uniquely gives our hobby >> its true appeal: Our hobby exists (existed) purely for its own sake. >> No strings, wire, or unneeded baggage. It existed purely for the joy >> of computing at its most base level, and the aquisition of knowledge >> of the science. > >I would not say that is a rule of thumb. I think there are many people on >this list that pursue the hobby for the sake of the machines - almost as >a sense of responsibility to preserve the past. I can say that nearly >everyone at RCS shares this feeling, at least. > >> Hostile? Yer damned right. We're on the defensive now. The >> 'marketplace' >> is poised to fundamentally change what I perceive as the original charter >> of the computing hobby. > >Well, as the old German man says - "Dat ist de vay de kookie krumbles". > >See below for the explanation... > >> This to me, clearly says you have no clue as to what is at stake here. >> >From my perspective, it's more like lashing out at land speculators >> who want to parcel out what was once tribal land, the parcels by the >> lake commanding the highest prices. What was once an almost free and >> accessable resource, now belongs only to the elite who can pay the price. > >[...] > >> Now there are amongst us speculators who don't truly believe; >> they don't practice the true faith, and don't care to. All they >> know is that computers have become a 'hot' collectible, and they want >> a piece of the action. It is these that we must oppose. > >I think there are far more of these people than we think. How many of us >actually _know_ someone that is doing this? Dealers tend to be rather >open about what they do, simply because they want people to know what >they have for sale. It is basically advertising. > >> I see the prices, and *I* just want to gag. The continued exposure >> of our hobby on forums like E-BAy will only cause prices to rise. Very >> soon, many of us will be priced out . . . > >None of the computers I have seen for sale, with the exception of a Bendix >G-15, have been horribly outragous in an absolute sense. Look at just >about ANY hobby that involves things collectable - the cream will cost >four figures. Computers, depression glass, model trains, Hummels, books, >clocks, whatever. > >Computers are interesting, however, because many of the people that are >buying the things are in the computer industry, and are probably making >good money. If I were a lowly technician* at UUnet, I would still be >making enough to spend four figures _maybe_ once a year on something good >like an Altair. If I were an engineer, something I am sure many of us are, >a four figure Altair purchase would be something to stop and think about >for a minute, but nothing that would drain the kid's college fund. Let's >face it, both the money _and_the_collectors_ are in the computer industry. > >> SO you're convinced that someone with a pile of money to throw at >> a 'hobby' simply wants it more than someone who's broke??!! Sheesh. >> It must be nice to rich, so you feel justified in making implications >> like that. > >This is (mostly) America, as they say. Work your butt off and get ahead >of the game. Then buy your Altairs. So far, I know lots of people that >make decent pay because of hard work, but I know no one that gets >decent pay for whining. When I was a poor college student and wanted >something, I would put extra hours in at the warehouse. > >> IN the hobby I knew, money was only a very small part of the equation. >> Used to be, all I needed was a few dollars, some basic tools, and a >> little luck. Now I need *deep* pockets, too. I'm upset that the >> 'elite' is putting my favorite passtime out of my reach. > >Its not the "elite" that have something about cornering the computer >collectable field - it happens to ALL collectable fields. I have seen it >happen in two related instances. > >Back, maybe 15 years ago, I was in high school and was getting interested >in old electronics - specifically collecting electron tubes and military >radios. Back then, the electron tube market was just starting to go, but >the military radio market was dead. I mean dead dead. Maybe Mr. Fandt can >back me up on this, but back in 1985, one could get a Western Electric >205D vacuum tube for about $25, and an Collins R-390A receiver for, well, >free. If you paid more than $25 you were a sucker. Anyway, both markets >started to mature and prices went up. These days a 205D will cost you >about $350, and an R-390A will be about $500. Could anything stop these >price increases? No. Absolutely nothing. People started to see how >collectable these were, and in these two cases, both cream. Economics >took over, with all of that supply and demand goobledygook we all slept >thru in school. > >There were (and still are) speculators in these fields, but just not that >many. There were (are) far more dealers, because most people like quick >money, and speculation is not the place to make a quick dollar. The >dealers, for the most part, are quite open about what they do. They demand >good money because they know they can get it. The also demand good money >because there are a great many dead ends that must be looked at before a >big score. How many people like to search a dark, dirty, 110 degree F >warehouse just to find nothing, all because of a good sounding lead? > >In the two above mentioned fields, there are "big guns" - those people >that do have money. I know some of them, and have personally seen alot of >collections. Most of these guys are very knowledgable, and treat their >artifacts in a very loving manner. One of the perks of being a "big gun" >and having a super collection is that people expect them to be >authorities, and most end up being so. It works both ways - knowledge >increases with new artifacts, and the quest to get more artifacts gets >more intense as more questions arise from the knowledge. The idea that >the "rich bastards" will just glass-case the items so onlookers can stare is >basically completely wrong - with tubes, radios, or computers. Most like >to "show off" more than just what they purchased. > >In any case, the computer collecting field is going thru these changes, >and nothing will stop it. Basically, deal with it in whatever way makes >you happy, but certainly whining will do nothing but alienate. > >> True believers will always welcome initiates. But only the truly >> committed will mature and contribute. These are the ones who will >> make our hobby live. If you shut these out by raising the price >> of admission, then our hobby (as we now know it) will certainly die. > >Initiation? Sounds idealist to me. When do we get a temple? And do we get >to spank people with brightly colored paddles with latin mottos? > >*no, I was not a technician, I was an engineer, but I knew technicians. > >William Donzelli >aw288(a)osfn.org >

27 years

1
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State of the Hobby

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

On Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:02:51 -0600 "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> writes: > This argument is getting to where it's pretty silly. PLease, hear me out on this . . . > I don't see how anyone can complain about buying used computer > hardware for considerably less than it cost when new. OKay, $500 or $1000 is alot less than the $4k+ these things cost when they were new, but $500 is *still* alot of money for most people, certainly for one who's just starting out. > The mythical "free Altair" which pops up again and again is > generally sold, even in "better than new" (properly assembled > and functional) condition for significantly less than what it > cost new, in "real" dollars. -- YES -- even on eBay! But e-bay makes the difference between 'easily affordable' and 'hopelessly out of reach'. > The typical PDP8 owned by persons in this particular interest group > were certainly not purchased for what they cost new, even in inflated > dollars, so I really can't see what the complaint is. The complaint is that what was once easily within reach, may not be in the future . . . > Sure, some people are able, and, some, misguided though they may > seem to be, even willing to pay more than I think they should for > a given item. To them, I sell what I can. No matter how inexpensive, I does cost *something* to do this hobby afterall; so . . . > In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned > off at $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and > that was in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy > bar. As I said, that's still alot of money. The cool thing about this hobby was that you didn't need alot to get cool stuff. That's starting to change. > I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for > $5 each, functionally tested and aligned, plus the estimated cost of > packaging and shipping, since I don't want more work on top of the > alignment and testing, estimated by Mailboxes, etc, which is where I'll > have them boxed and shipped. I've offered these same drives to people, > as is, for just the cost of shipping, and most wouldn't pay even for > the shipping. Now see, this is what I've been talking about. You supply a scarce commodity (in working condition I might add) for a reasonable price. You are actively trying to make a contribution to our hobbyist community. > When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. > The last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, > a typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the > same, and a terminal cost $750. Yep. Big money. Definitely not something you do casually. BY 1993 though, you could get these for next to nothing. Suddenly, you could persue the hobby you couldn't afford ten years before. > If people wanted more than that for these devices, even though they > were in perfectly functional and cosmetically perfect condition, I could > understand the complaints. I won't be convinced that the prices being paid at > auction, publicity or not, for "old, used, obsolete" computers or component > are unreasonable until someone shows me a similarly pristine '55 > Thunderbird that's going unsold because its price is over half what it cost new. Well, automobile collecting is definitely a rich-man's hobby; which sure leaves me out. I just find it painful to see our hobby go the same way. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

27 years

2
1
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DC Power supply question...duh...

by af-list＠lafleur.wfi-inc.com

I am risking the effects of that famous quote, "Better to be thought a fool..." I have a 15V DC powersupply that has no other rating on its sticker than 180 watts. Now, with my [extremely] limited knowledge, I did the simple math and worked out that I could safely pull 12 amps out of this PS...am I right? Does it really work this way? Aaron

27 years

4
5
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State of the Hobby

by edick＠idcomm.com

see below, plz Dick -----Original Message----- From: jpero(a)cgocable.net <jpero(a)cgocable.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 5:34 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:08:44 -0600 >> Reply-to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu >> From: "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> >> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >> Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >> X-To: <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > >> Well, just to put things in proportion, today, you can go to Best Buy and >> get a 300+ MHz P-II computer with an 8gb HDD and 256K of RAM, etc, for $600 >> including a nice 17" monitor. >> >> Dick > >Please snip off excess text while replying. BTW whoops 256K for a >PII? U mean 256MB? > I do indeed! Sorry . . . rented fingers (lame excuse) . . . > >:-) > >Wizard

27 years

1
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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.#

by edick＠idcomm.com

I just have to be contrary, here. I was given my first Mouse Systems Optical Mouse back in '82. That was before either the Lisa or the Mac. I don't exactly know what the giver thought/wished I would do with it, but there it was. I was using CP/M at home and office though we did have an MS-DOS machine. If attention hadn't been called to the mouse by that time, I doubt someone would have given me one. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 5:21 PM Subject: Re: Article about collecting in Antique Trader.# >> > I don't want to imply a direct technical link here. But it's clear that the >> > Macintosh was influenced by the Lisa. And that Windows was influenced by >> > the Macintosh. >> >> Objections! >> IMHO Windows was _not_ influenced by the mac - at least not >> at all before 3.x, and not heavyly before 9x. Let me explain: > >I wasn't implying a technical influence. Just that the Mac brought the >mouse to the public's attention. And thus PCs had to get some kind of >mouse/GUI. After all, the GUI on the Alto is very different from that on >the Lisa, which is very different from that on the Mac (at least as I >remember them). > >In any case, Windows 3.x was an important step. There were _very few_ >(that I remember) third party applications for Windows 1.x or 2.x. In >fact those versions of Windows tended to come bundled with whatever >applications needed them (I remember installing Excel on a PC in about >1988 and it came with a run-time Windows 2.x IIRC). > >But Windows 3.0 appeared (to the user) as a different PC operating system >(yes, _I_ know it was built on top of MS-DOS, but...). Now you could get >point-n-drool programs for this OS on a PC. > > >> The picture might look like: >> >> The Mouse ------------------------------; >> | SideKick -'-> Windows 1.x/2.x -;-> MS Win 3.x -;-> MS Win 9x >> | ,-> GEM -' | >> Alto -+-> D machines -> Apple Lisa -> Original Mac -'----------> MacOS >7.0 -'-> ... >> | | Close similarities >> +-> PERQ > > >OK, I can certainly accept that. > >All I was really commenting on was the fact that the Lisa attracts a >price out of all proportion with it's significance. The PERQ and >D-machines are important as well, but those don't tend to sell for $5000 >or whatever. > >> No, me'n either, but maybe the impact of the PC had been different - >> these computers did pave the road to use other systems more willingly >> not just by order of ones boss. > >I would be _very_ supprised if most of today's PC _users_ (as opposed to >programmers, hackers, etc) started out building a ZX80 19 years ago.. > >> P.S.: If you continue, I might be interested in getting a PERQ :) > >You should be. It's an interesting machine. Just be warned that >microcoding is addictive... > >-tony >

27 years

1
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State of the Hobby

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

The phrase "prices...out of reach of people who can handle these machines" sounds like you don't consider anyone with money to be technically competent. I'm sure that's not what you meant... right? Kai -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin [mailto:max82@surfree.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 3:10 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: State of the Hobby I agree that this is not a legitimate thing over which to become angry, but there is an issue that this is driving the prices up, out of reach of people who can handle these machines, and into the reach of people who want to encase them in plastic and put them into their 500 sq.ft. living room. This is causing some hostility. --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power

27 years

6
5
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Free Stuff! Xerox Printer/Terminal Manuals

by rigdonj＠mailhost.intellistar.net

Hi, Does anyone want a copy of the Operator's Guide for the XEROX 630 API/API ECS Printer/Terminal? I also have a orignal Operator's Guide for the XEROX D 25 Printer. Joe

27 years

1
0
0 0

Data General/NeXT/Philips

by peter.pachla＠vectrex.freeserve.co.uk

Can anyone point me at some sources of information on Data General, NeXT and/or Philips (minis). I'm looking to round off my collection by adding something from one or more of these product lines but know little about them so I don't really know what to look out for. In particular I've heard mention of a DG MicroNOVA which sounds like it might fit the bill in terms of size. TIA. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla(a)virgin.net | peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla(a)wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk --

27 years

3
2
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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 6/29/99 6:14:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Tony Duell writes: > This means the history of computing is being distorted. Truely important > machines are being forgotten. Other machines, much less significant, are > being remembered. This is not a good thing. > > OK, let me ask a very simple question. I will give below the > specification of 2 machines, both from around 1980. The questions are : > Which do you think is the more historically important, and which one > would fetch a higher price (Oh, and would anyone care to name the 2 > machines :-)) > > OK. Machine A : > > Processor : Custom 16/20 bit CPU. Graphics processor. Z80-A for I/O > > RAM : 1Mbyte > > Storage : 8" floppy disk, 24Mbyte hard disk > > Keyboard : Full QWERTY keyboard, Keytronics > > Display : Bitmapped display, 768*1024 pixels (portrait monitor) > > Mouse : Sumagraphics Bit Pad 1 > > Languages : Pascal, LISP, etc > > Comments : Version of the first commercially-sold graphics workstation > > > Machine B : > > Processor : Z80A > > RAM : 1Kbyte > > Storage : Sockets to connect optional audio cassette recorder > > Keyboard : QWERTY membrane keyboaard > > Display : Text (22*23 or something like that), block graphics. Disappears > when program running > > Mouse : You must be joking > > Languages : 4K ROM containing strange (integer only?) BASIC. > > Comments : Very inexpensive home computer Machine B is very obviously a Sinclair ZX80 or ZX81. Pardon my confusion, but are you saying that the ZX80/81 was "much less significant?" Perhaps I misunderstand. Millions of people worldwide were introduced to computers by these machines (and their Timex cousins). Because of the low price, people bought them to see if they "liked computing" -- if not, they could throw them away and only be out $100 or so. On the other hand, many, like myself, found they had a small talent for working with computers -- in whatever capacity -- and thus found employment, careers, and satisfaction because of their initial experience with Timex/Sinclair computers. > I think that if you own a classic computer you should learn how it works, > how to use it, how to repair it, etc. Note, I am _NOT_ saying that you > have to be qualified (after all, I'm not). I am not saying that you have > to know everything before you start. I am saying, though, that you should > want to learn. The TS computers' simple but clever architecture encouraged learning all the "how to's" you mention above. But, perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying . . . So: what are these two computers? Which is the most historically important, and, in your opinion, which would fetch a higher price? BTW, I use my Timex/Sinclair computers for some purpose at least five days out of seven. Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0

27 years

4
4
0 0

DC Power supply question...duh...

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

A well designed PSU will go into "thermal" shutdown, where the heat produced by the pass transistors is detected and the PSU shuts down until they cool off. A poorly designed PSU will go into "smoke" shutdown, where the transistors release their blue smoke and then never work again. The worst thing about the latter case is that when the transistors go into thermal avalanche mode they cease operating according to specification and the output of the supply could literally become nearly anything up to and including the unregulated DC input from the rectifier (probably 23 volts in this case) --Chuck At 02:03 PM 7/1/99 -0700, you wrote: >Just out of curiosity, what >could conceivably happen if I ran it at 12 amps and it couldn't handle the >load? By the way, it is indeed an inexpensive, linear type...

27 years

1
0
0 0

What is a Sirius?

by peter＠joules.enterprise-plc.com

Just been offered one. Has anyone any idea what it is? Regards Pete

27 years

4
4
0 0

DC Power supply question...duh...

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well, first of all, the linear type in that range aren't inexpensive . . . Switchers are cheaper. That's why the use them so much. All that would happen is that your voltage would drop out of regulation because the ripple would cause the input voltage to be too low. I'd be not the least bit afraid to try it. It probably won't break anything except maybe the fuse on the supply. -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney <af-list(a)lafleur.wfi-inc.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 4:09 PM Subject: Re: DC Power supply question...duh... >Thanks, everyone who answered. I think I'm going to spring for another PS >that I know is rated for the full 12 amps. Just out of curiosity, what >could conceivably happen if I ran it at 12 amps and it couldn't handle the >load? By the way, it is indeed an inexpensive, linear type... > >Thanks again, > >Aaron > >On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> > I am risking the effects of that famous quote, "Better to be thought a >> > fool..." >> > >> > I have a 15V DC powersupply that has no other rating on its sticker than >> > 180 watts. Now, with my [extremely] limited knowledge, I did the simple >> > math and worked out that I could safely pull 12 amps out of this >> > PS...am I right? Does it really work this way? >> >> In theory, yes. >> >> DC power = I.V. So 180W at 15V is, indeed, 12A. >> >> However, that is taking the '180W' to be the output power of the supply. >> In many cases, the 180W is the maximum power it will consume from the >> mains. And as power supplies are not 100% efficient, you don't get out >> all the power you put in. In fact, the efficiency might only be 50% >> (particularly if it's a linear PSU), so you could only draw 6A from it. >> >> I'd probably not take more than that from it, unless I _knew_ it was >> designed to stand it. >> >> -tony >> >

27 years

1
0
0 0

1975 Dollars (was RE: State of the Hobby)

by edick＠idcomm.com

I think you have that backwards, sir. The present value of the 1975 dollar is $2.95, not the other way around. This is clearly just a misstatement, as you've interpreted it correctly in the subsequent statements of present value. This implies that when eBay facilitates an auction of an old Altair for $3000 it's $2500 lower than what a new one cost. That's not so bad, considering that the original was probably not built up and not functional. I note that the last one I saw for sale there hadn't even gotten a bid from $3k to start after 4 or 5 days. It would appear the guys who buy these aren't all totally stupid out there. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Kai Kaltenbach <kaikal(a)MICROSOFT.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 12:17 PM Subject: 1975 Dollars (was RE: State of the Hobby) >I grabbed the Consumer Price Index history off the web, pasted into Excel, >and applied the percentage changes cumulative from 1975. > >One 1998 dollar = $2.95 in 1975 dollars (ouch, those Carter administration >years! Thank goodness for Greenspan) > >Therefore, an assembled Altair 8800 with 4x2K static RAM, serial, parallel, >cassette, and bus expansion, $1880 in 1975 dollars, would be the equivalent >of $5546 today. > >An Apple Lisa base configuration ($9995 in 1983 dollars) would be $16,169 >today. > >Kai > > -----Original Message----- >From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust@threedee.com] >Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 10:45 AM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Re: State of the Hobby > >At 11:02 AM 7/1/99 -0600, you wrote: >> >>In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at >>$565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was >>in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. > >I suppose there must be a web site, somewhere, that would let you enter >a date and a US dollar amount, and would show you the equivalent value >in today's dollars, accounting for actual inflation, etc. in the >intervening years. > >Which reminds me, when I was in high school, we sold candy bars to >fund the purchase of a few K of RAM for the IMSAI as well as a floppy drive. > >>I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 >each, > >Similarly, you'd think there would be a web site somewhere to >remind people of the rapid devaluation of the value of computer >equipment - say, perhaps the flip side of Moore's Law, that shows >how simply purchasing and opening the box of a new computer causes >a significant drop in value, followed by subsequent halvings of >resale value every six months, until it quickly reaches the >"nuisance fee" level mentioned above, where the cost of shipping >and packing seems to exceed the street price. > >- John

27 years

1
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