- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by edick＠idcomm.com

Tony, we have stores like that too, such as "CompUSA" or Circuit City. Even though their prices are often outrageously high for the "add-ons" such as mice or cables, their system prices are normally in line with other stores. They have a replacement parts/upgrade components counter where things like CPU fans, video boards, etc. are sold, but you have to bring your information with you. What you get there is not reliable. The thing that's insulting is that the prices of these items vary so wildly that one dares not to rely on being able to afford even a simple add-on without first knocking over the liquor store down the street. I saw an ad a couple of days ago while shopping for motherboards, and found a "bare bones" system consisting of a motherboard, CPU (300 MHz K6) enclosure, floppy drive, and power supply, for $100. This was nationally advertised over the web. I don't recall whether there was memory, a keyboard, video card, or a mouse, but I was so overwhelmed, I didn't even think to look. The local discounter wants that much for just the processor IC! Now, in today's high-volume, fast-paced market, I doubt there's any need for one to worry about the power supply wearing out before his hardware becomes obsolete. (These days that's when you can't even give it away any more or about a year, whichever comes first.) The cheapo fans and PSU's we've been kicking around generally last longer than that, and those fellows who have to set the priorities, e.g. high quality quiet fan in your computer vs. $15 per unit in their pocket, have no trouble at all with their decision. That certainly accounts for the presence of such low quality in the average computer. The "real" electronics houses here in the US operate on the notion that they provide what you buy. If you buy fewer than 5k pieces per week, then it's probably more like you buy what they provide, but you get the picture. If, out of the vast number of computer buyers out there, 1% kept them long enough to have problems enough with the fan noise, life, or PSU that they replaced them, grumling loudly as they went, there would be high quality replacements available. Unfortunately, when your fan dies or begins to make lots of noise, that corporate repair/installation fellow comes around and you get a new computer. Not too many average users complain about this. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 3:55 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> > > rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement >> > > fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. >> > >> > You don't get them from computer shops. You get them from _real_ >> > electronics shops/supply companies. It just so happens that they also fit >> > PC power supplies ;-). >> >> Tony, I resemble this implication! You have obviously never visited my >> *computer shop* :>) > >Correct, I haven't... > >OK, some shops in the UK sell both computer parts (cases, motherboards, >PSUs, etc) and electronic components. In fact most of the component shops >also sell computer parts. > >But, by 'computer shop', I meant the sort of place that sells no-name (or >worse still non-standard brand-name) PCs, packages software, etc. The >sort of place that will try to sell you a new printer rather than a >ribbon for your old one. Those places never sell useful spares like fans. > >-tony >

26 years, 11 months

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Still more PBX stuff.

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

I dragged some extensions out and plugged into it, they work fine. I can bounce inside calls around pretty easily. The extensions appear to have been numbered in an arbitrary order though. I'm gonna read the DLP books and see if I can change that without the MAAP box. Also, as for the 6 loops on the console - That's 6 lines for the console itself. The console can have 6 conversations going on it at the same time. The PBX seems to be able to switch as many calls as you have outside lines for. It does use relays, if I opened the front cover and dialed I could hear it click as it completed the call. I also let it sit and run for about 5 hours while we played a card game upstairs and it worked fine after running awhile. (But after about 10 minutes I did get a minor warning because the CO wasn't talking to me, which makes sense...) The next fun things to do are reprogramming the system to some sane values AFA line numbering and the outgoing lines, then finding a way to back up the OS tape, and the trying to connect it to the world. -------

26 years, 11 months

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Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc)

by edick＠idcomm.com

RIGHT! You have removable hard drives, as I do, and probably have non-removable PROMs (FLASH-types) as well. Now, what to we call this stuff? Back to my original comment about semantics, other parts of the electronics industry and other industries, are calling the content of CD's and tapes "software" as more and more similarity becomes apparent to the public. Additionally, the legal system has begun to see them in the same way. The devices which define our computers are becoming defined more and more by what we used to call software, though now perhaps we should call it firmware, and yet the simple boundaries I once understood to support these definitions now have become blurred by the movement of what used to be firmware into volatile media and of what used to be "software" into non-volatile media, e.g. the PCMCIA Flash-disks I mentioned. I don't think we'll have to wait long for a situation to arise, in which one links to a site on the web, is fed a download of configuration data which defines how the system on which one's running is to be defined, then reads the code which will be executed on the specifically configured "hardware" environment. Instead of the hardware defining how the software must be configured, the software will define the way in which the hardware addresses its requirements. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 6:08 AM Subject: RE: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) >> > > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have >> > > to kill you ;-) >> > Firmware? >> Definitely firmware. You can grab it and remove it. It is >> plugged in. > >Well, I own a removable harddisk (plugged in) - >I can grap it and remove it - >so Win98 is firmware ? > >As we might see, the terms are not that fixed as >we would loke it (also a reason why I hate all >this denglish tems - already fuzy terms from a >foreign language used without knowledge of their >orgin nor any concept for genuine meaning :( ). > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Traue keinem Menschen der 5 Tage blutet und immer noch nicht tod ist.

26 years, 11 months

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imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

As was stated earlier, I must have been really lucky, because I go down to the lawfirm and upgrade their computers, usually every 18 months or so, usually in lots of 50. I've had disk drive problems, but those went away when WD stopped shipping their 31200 drives. Of the 18 I had there, after a year, the oldest had been replaced 4 times under warranty and the newest was on its 8th incarnation. That wasn't part of the "bare-bones" package. It was my first, and last, experience with LAN wiring, and I became pretty expert in maintaing Netware servers and installing Windows95. Their power supplies have failed at a less-than average rate, and the only problems have been with the monitors, which I didn't provide, though that's also been pretty minor. I don't normally do this sort of thing, but my lawyer, like other folks, knew I work in the computer-related electronics side of things, and was frustrated with his luck with the guys who specialize in outfitting businesses. Now that my legal problems have gone away, and they don't very badly want to pay my hourly rate, someone else is doing that stuff for them. Dick -----Original Message----- From: jpero(a)cgocable.net <jpero(a)cgocable.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 11:11 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:12:24 EDT >> Reply-to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu >> From: Glenatacme(a)aol.com >> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >> Subject: Re: imsai 2 > >> In a message dated 08/19/1999 11:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >> edick(a)idcomm.com writes: >> >> > ... and what, exactly, is wrong with the "barebone thing" pray tell? Last >> > time I bought barebones systems I got enough for a whole law firm. The >> > motherboards have been replaced for upgrades, but the boxes, drives, >> > keyboards, etc, are still in place. >> >> You were very lucky. > >Did number of parts belly up or get troublemaker big time and you had >to make lot of runs to that law business? > >True to every situation that we saw or heard about businesses and >buyers who dealt with a untruthworthy resellers / wholesalers. When >that happens and that place will tell themselves "We had that so much >troubles, that we'll blacklist that shop that barebones came from >there and buy everywhere else." And time goes by and that shop >finally finds out why you got blacklisted by rumor, from there people >spreads the reputation around. Reason is that shop didn't act in time >when problems crops up and move on to truthworthy sources for >computer stuff. Some worst ones will "swap" one for another equally >bad parts, some to be praised did something right and paid terrible >price to fix the troubles. > >> What is wrong is that many cutthroat operators put these "barebones" systems >> together with faulty cpus/motherboards . . . since you're going to take it >> home and add some other components, if you have a problem with the system >> it's easy for the seller to blame any problems on components you didn't buy >> from him or her: >> >> "The barebones system you sold me crashes all the time." >> >> "Let me see it . . . oh, you have these other parts in it . . . that's the >> problem." >> >> "But they're standard parts, and if you check them out you'll see they're >> properly installed." >> >> "Sorry, those parts are not compatible with the high-quality components in >> the system you bought from us. And that crummy software you installed is >> bound to cause problems. But we'll be glad to check it out for $$$ per hour." >> >> This is one of the oldest cons in the world: Sell something the buyer has to >> modify in order to use, then shift responsibility onto the buyer by blaming >> problems on buyer modifications. Then charge them out the ass. > >Exactly what happened with that tyan board flakiness and Asus >board parallel thing from these worthless resellers. They wanted the >money and gave the buyer the old bricks. > >Saw remarked CPUs for real >with my eyes. Looks like real thing but serial #'s didn't jibe with >original cpu maker's records with this actual markings. That was >from shop A. Tipoff: thickness when mounting heatsink to it. > >This story; here is it and this is true story with all identifiers >mangled. A instutition with very limited $ bought a machine from a >Shop A loaded with junk and old parts as new computer (major >illegal). Utterly unreliable and parts is of clones of clones >of mystious origin type like that russian wooden dolls. That machine >came in with unhappy instutition's owner to trustworthy Shop B. >Shop B smelled rat then made few calls around to major makers like >AMI bios to verify key items etc and police came in to pick up that >bits. Shop B footed the cost and trouble to rebuild a good machine >to even unhappy instutition owner who lost $ on that junk who wished >they didn't blown their savings on. > >Hope anyone don't get caught in between like this especially to any >resellers and owners. One other shady shop was ground into dirt and >new management but the sigma still from that past still lingers even >that reformed shop did ok years later. > >> >> Glen Goodwin >> 0/0 > >Wizard

26 years, 11 months

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imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

Boy! I guess I WAS lucky. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Glenatacme(a)aol.com <Glenatacme(a)aol.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 10:13 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >In a message dated 08/19/1999 11:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >edick(a)idcomm.com writes: > >> ... and what, exactly, is wrong with the "barebone thing" pray tell? Last >> time I bought barebones systems I got enough for a whole law firm. The >> motherboards have been replaced for upgrades, but the boxes, drives, >> keyboards, etc, are still in place. > >You were very lucky. > >What is wrong is that many cutthroat operators put these "barebones" systems >together with faulty cpus/motherboards . . . since you're going to take it >home and add some other components, if you have a problem with the system >it's easy for the seller to blame any problems on components you didn't buy >from him or her: > >"The barebones system you sold me crashes all the time." > >"Let me see it . . . oh, you have these other parts in it . . . that's the >problem." > >"But they're standard parts, and if you check them out you'll see they're >properly installed." > >"Sorry, those parts are not compatible with the high-quality components in >the system you bought from us. And that crummy software you installed is >bound to cause problems. But we'll be glad to check it out for $$$ per hour." > >This is one of the oldest cons in the world: Sell something the buyer has to >modify in order to use, then shift responsibility onto the buyer by blaming >problems on buyer modifications. Then charge them out the ass. > >Glen Goodwin >0/0

26 years, 11 months

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Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc)

by mranalog＠home.com

Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:37:55 Bill Sudbrink said: >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-08/16/026l-081699-idx.html > >Fortunately, the article does not use that horrid phrase: > >"Software Program" > >AAARRRGGG!!! > >Why don't we get in the automobile car and drive ride to the >financial institution bank. There we can get some cash currency Bill, would you not call this an example of a hardware program? http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog/analogs2.jpg I would not feel comfortable saying that this computer is running software. In fact it's wired to calculate and graphically display the trajectory of a ball after it's dropped from a certain height, and bounces on the ground. In practice, the program had a bug in it or a computing element was not functioning right, because when the program ran it would crash just after the first bounce. Probably had to do with the acceleration or velocity changing to the negative direction. If the function of something can be changed, whether the change is in the sequence of bits recorded on a diskette, or the pivot point in a set of linkages, I would say that you are changing the programming of that machine. But that's just my perspective and opinion. Regards, --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ====================================================

26 years, 11 months

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About to acquire an IBM 5360...

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

On Friday, August 20, 1999 7:23 AM, Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com [SMTP:Philip.Belben@pgen.com] wrote: > > > >> Finally, as I can seldom resist saying, the 5340 and 5360 have the > >> nicest floppy drive I've ever met. Twenty-three disks all in it at > >> once... > > > > So I have this carthridge I liberated from an abandoned 5360 that holds > > about 10 8" floppies. Does this get loaded into this 23-disk floppy > > drive? > > > Easy. You put the whole cartridge in. The drive takes two cartridges and three > loose disks. I seem to recall that the OS accepted designations for either > cartridge, both cartridges, any single disk, or all three single disks, and > there may have been a way of specifying a single disk within a cartridge (I can > look this up at home). > I don't remember the designations but, the larger (washing machine size) machines had the multidisk floppy drives. According to the documentation, you can specify a particular floppy in the carosel. Although, I don't recall the exact syntax. My system is the size of a 2-drawer file cabinet and weighs about 150 lbs (70KG for the rest of the world). Unfortunately, it does not have casters making it a PITA to move. It has a single 8" floppy that holds around 1MB of data. The drive seems pretty fast in relation to the rest of the machine. There are four twinax and four DB25 connectors on the rear. I have the console and printer hooked up to the first twinax connector and it works just fine. I got a modem and cables with the system but, haven't hooked it up. The cable has a DB25 connector so, it obviously plugs into one of the other ports. Don't know for sure but, I'm assuming they are normal RS232 connections? IMHO, this is one ugly OS! Later, Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 11 months

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M7865 question.

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>It reads 'Unibus 2 word out' on the back, and the DEC module field guide >doesn't provide with additional information. > >What is it used for ? It's a DR11-M, basically a 32-bit-wide parallel output port. It's complement is the DR11-L, a 32-bit-wide parallel input port. Compare these with the rest of the DR11-* series, which are generally both input *and* output. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 11 months

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About to acquire an IBM 5360...

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> Finally, as I can seldom resist saying, the 5340 and 5360 have the >> nicest floppy drive I've ever met. Twenty-three disks all in it at >> once... > > So I have this carthridge I liberated from an abandoned 5360 that holds > about 10 8" floppies. Does this get loaded into this 23-disk floppy > drive? Easy. You put the whole cartridge in. The drive takes two cartridges and three loose disks. I seem to recall that the OS accepted designations for either cartridge, both cartridges, any single disk, or all three single disks, and there may have been a way of specifying a single disk within a cartridge (I can look this up at home). In all cases except a single disk specified, when the machine got to the end of a disk, it would spit the disk back out into the cartridge (or disk slot), move the disk carriage up one space, and suck another disk into its innards to read or write it. A sort of jukebox mechanism, I suppose. I also recall it was pretty speedy, something like 4 cylinders a second, 20 seconds to read or write a whole diskette. Philip.

26 years, 11 months

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Osborne History

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

I don't know the exact connection, but there was an Osborne company with the same name and logo in Australia till recently. They seemed to have appeared about 1988 and were "rescued" and renamed by Gateway a few years back. I suspect it was just a case of the name and logo of the original company being sold. Hans -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, 20 August 1999 20:10 Subject: Re: Osborne History >On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Bill Sheehan wrote: > >> Once upon a time, I know I read a history of Osborne Computer Company >> ("Hypergrowth," by Adam Osborne and John Dvorak - I've got a copy around >> here somewhere.) I remember distinctly that they were the hit of Computer >> Faire in 1981, and went bankrupt in September of '83. >> >> Thanks to my sharp-eyed wife, I now have an Osborne Vixen, the OCC-4. >> The motherboard and copyright notice in the documentation are clearly >> labeled 1984. I thought they'd already slipped beneath the waves by then. >> >> Can someone enlighten me on the End of Osborne? > >I think they actually lasted until about 1986. Their last ditch effort >was the Osborne III, which was simply a re-branded Morrow Pivot Portable >(aka the Zenith Z-{somesuchmodel}). > >Surprised me too. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 08/17/99] >

26 years, 11 months

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About to acquire an IBM 5360...

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

Chris, Joe and Steve between them managed to say: >> > I have an opprotunity to get an IBM 5360 (looks like a System/36 to >> >me) with a 5224 printer (heavy beast!) and a 5291-2 monochrome display. >> >Does anyone have any information on this, like how I can determine the >> >amount of DASD in it, how much RAM, and what I can do with it? [...] > There seem to be a BUNCH of variants of the 536X systems so it's hard to > predict what's gonna be inside. I think mine is an early example because it > will only support drives up to 60MB each. Currently, it has a 60MB and a > 30MB drive installed. I think some of the later models had drives in the > 1GB range but, I'm not positive of that. 5360 is the physically biggest system/36 - the size of a system/34 (5340). My experience is more with system/34 than system/36, but 60MB per drive sounds even lower than we had on our s/34 - must be a very early s/36 To return to Chris's question, I seem to recall some information appearing on the screen during boot. I think the terminal must be set to address 0 (or possibly 1 if 0 isn't valid) and stuck on the lowest-numbered twinax chain. It then will automatically be the console, and will display all this junk. FWIW our system/34 had 224K bytes of RAM of which one 2K block had died. Of disk space I think it had 256MB, but I can't remember if this was four drives or six. Big things with multiple platters, anyway. Finally, as I can seldom resist saying, the 5340 and 5360 have the nicest floppy drive I've ever met. Twenty-three disks all in it at once... Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk **********************************************************************

26 years, 11 months

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Osborne History

by sheehan＠switchboardmail.com

Once upon a time, I know I read a history of Osborne Computer Company ("Hypergrowth," by Adam Osborne and John Dvorak - I've got a copy around here somewhere.) I remember distinctly that they were the hit of Computer Faire in 1981, and went bankrupt in September of '83. Thanks to my sharp-eyed wife, I now have an Osborne Vixen, the OCC-4. The motherboard and copyright notice in the documentation are clearly labeled 1984. I thought they'd already slipped beneath the waves by then. Can someone enlighten me on the End of Osborne? Thanks! -- Bill Sheehan

26 years, 11 months

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imsai 2

by RCini＠congressfinancial.com

On Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:24:13 -0400, CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com wrote: >>You know, 20 years after I first put an IMSAI together I still reach in >>them today to wiggle around the front panel and YIKES!!. I just never, >>ever learn! >>I never fried any hardware due to the 120VAC, just me. (Once a >>screwdriver ended up in the wall.) I've gotten pliers flung across the room; screwdrivers welded. Not to mention that uncomfortable tingling feeling in my arm :-). Rich -------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Cini Vice President Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 212-545-4402 / 212-840-6259 (fax) rcini(a)congressfinancial.com

26 years, 11 months

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No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2]

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

> > What I'm curious about is why these korean products must be "crap". It > doesn't take much skill to make a case or to make and test a power supply. > When you have an unskilled and underpaid workforce, using inferior materials and processes, that's the ONLY kind of product you can produce. > > On the other hand, these crap cases are getting bought up like hot cakes > because there's nothing better, and there's no reason to make them higher > quality. That's modern c(r)apitalism for you... > There are better products available. It's just that most consumers can't justify buying the more expensive products. One of the problems in the computer industy is the pace of the technology and the speed at which products depreciate. Because of this, computer systems (PCs in particular) have become very short term investments. How many people or companies believe their PCs will last for more than a few years? Would you spend $400 for a case and PS that's powering a 386? I certainly wouldn't. Unless of course it is critical to my business or my welfare. Now a harder question. Would you spend $400 for a case and PS that's powering a new Zeon 550? I wouldn't... Just remember, todays Zeon 550 is tomorrows 386. In contrast, the opposite thing is happening in the automobile industry. People are realizing that a car is a long term investment and the higher quality (price) is easily justified. There's a lot more $40,000 cars being sold than $7,000 cars. Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 11 months

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Interesting find -> Honeywell-Bull AP/M

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Does anyone have any sort of info on this thing? I just picked one up at a garage sale for $1. The guy I bought it from had no info about it. He said it was in the basement of his house when he bought the house... The case is about 6" high by 15" wide. It has a 1.2 MB 5.25" floppy and a ST-225 HD in it. It has a 286-10 CPU in it, but when "turbo" (it's software controlled - "boost.exe" makes the computer beep then lights a green LED on the front)is on, it clocks at 13.5 MHz (QADiagnostics). There is a 3.5" bay that's the same height as a 5.25" floppy (anyone have a drive that'll fit in here?), and the three LED's (green, red, green - power, HD, turbo) aren't labeled. The cover over the HD bay is odd, too. It's frosted. Whenever the computer's on, the green HD light can be seen through it, sort of like the old Olivetti had. The cards that it has are a standard MFM controller (although in a non-standard place - it's set back About 1" from the back of the case, and about 1" to the right of the card cage, and the ''tail" on the card's mounting bracket goes through a hole in the motherboard)/ There's also a standard CGA/composite video card, and an ARCnet LANcard. It has a BNC coax connector on it. As my luck would have it, though the "arcnet" directory was empty. All the directories were empty but the DOS directory, and they all appear to have hidden files, because I can't remove them. The case is also made from a surprisingly heavy gauge of steel. All the metal is about 1/32" thick, and it weighs about as much as a 5170 AT. Anyone have any info on this? what it was mainly used for? Maybe a keyboard to match? :) ThAnX, ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1>

26 years, 11 months

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imsal 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

Back in the '70's, and maybe into the early '80's, the rule of thumb was to multiply manufacturing cost by 4 to estimate the minimum retail price of a piece of electronic gear. I don't know how to estimate the cost of the components any better than has already been done here, but I would imagine that Todd Fischer is collecting orders as a means of estimating the potential for his product along with paying for tooling and other non-recurring costs. I'm relieved that his product is, as yet, vaporware, because I personally don't see the benefit in having a 22-slot mainframe with a power supply of the sort describe on the IMSAI web site, just as I'm having trouble with the notion that people would pay $1k for a box with a front panel and little else. Based on the notion that SOME people will, I don't see his price as excessive for what it might be. I do have the sense that the WHAT is still TBD. There's no shortage of S-100 mainframes from what I've seen. I see three or four every year for about $25, which nearly compensates the consignee for the space they take up. I have about six which I 'd happily give up. That would still leave me plenty. The original notion I remember seeing was to have the IMSAI "look" wedded to a current generation Pentium class processor. I don't see a niche for that, however. All we can do is wait and hope Todd Fischer comes to what more of would consider to be his senses and reshapes his intended product. It is HIS, though . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 11:24 AM Subject: Re: imsal 2 >> And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much?? Switches: >>22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. FP=$100. Maybe I have a >>warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was expecting a lower number. > >Multiply the above numbers by a factors of 1.5 or so, and you're about >in the right ballpark (though the real factor is much closer to 4 for >the power supply - $50 won't buy anything but a way-too-dinky transformer.) >I did a similar calculation when deciding whether I could sell my "TIMSAI" >as a commercial product, and came up with a street price for it (with >very similar production costs) that would have to be close to $2000-$3000 to >justify the effort. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 11 months

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RT-11 and TCP/IP

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

OK, since I'm trying to cover all bases trying to find an answer I guess I'd best send a message to the list. I'm trying to install Alan Baldwin's TCP/IP package on a mutant PDP-11/73 with a DEQNA ethernet controller (though have tried a DELQA). However, I seem to be stuck, and I can't figure out what the error code I'm getting is. Depending on how I start it, I get one of the following two error codes: Board initialization failed!. Error code=3 netinit() failed Board initialization failed!. Error code=11 netinit() failed Are the error codes documented anywhere? I've tried going through some of the source without any luck. I'm at a loss here as I know for a fact that the DEQNA, transceiver and network cableing are all good. Any help/suggestions would be much appreciated. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

26 years, 11 months

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imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

-----Original Message----- From: jpero(a)cgocable.net <jpero(a)cgocable.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 8:58 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:44:06 -0600 >> Reply-to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu >> From: "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> >> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >> Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> X-To: <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > >> Tony, we have stores like that too, such as "CompUSA" or Circuit City. Even >> though their prices are often outrageously high for the "add-ons" such as >> mice or cables, their system prices are normally in line with other stores. >> They have a replacement parts/upgrade components counter where things like >> CPU fans, video boards, etc. are sold, but you have to bring your >> information with you. What you get there is not reliable. > >Those "upgrades" and loose boards on display are generic type no >different from no-brands except for branded ones upgrade boxes. > >> >> The thing that's insulting is that the prices of these items vary so wildly >> that one dares not to rely on being able to afford even a simple add-on >> without first knocking over the liquor store down the street. > >Not how I shop. I pick out a specific brand and few models then shop >around with that limited specifics for good price and warrenty. >Example Asus MEL-M, one shop has it for 150 CDN 1 yr. Other shop >has it for few dollars less and 1 year manufacter plus 2yr extra. >So on. Beauiful board and works well on linux and winblows 95 upgrade >ver after patched the chipset driver into winblows. :-) I own 3 >other boards by Asus. To others, sorry to hear about sucker >problems. I think it's the wholesaler thing passing sick ones onto >unsuspecting users. Happened on 2 occasions, once w/ asus from a >little known vendor (sick parallel port), and once with tyan board >from a vendor that poofed right afterwards who we contacted refused >to resolve this problems. Their claims tested it it's fine! BULL! > I have a particular problem with ASUS, dating back to their '486 days which removed them forever from my list. Whats more, their motherboards without processor cost more than the ones I have used for some time with. I've never seen anyone willing and able (some are willing, but not many) to enforce the warranty. > >> I saw an ad a couple of days ago while shopping for motherboards, and found >> a "bare bones" system consisting of a motherboard, CPU (300 MHz K6) >> enclosure, floppy drive, and power supply, for $100. This was nationally >Snip! > >That barebone thing, I smell rat, avoid! > ... and what, exactly, is wrong with the "barebone thing" pray tell? Last time I bought barebones systems I got enough for a whole law firm. The motherboards have been replaced for upgrades, but the boxes, drives, keyboards, etc, are still in place. > >> Now, in today's high-volume, fast-paced market, I doubt there's any need for >> one to worry about the power supply wearing out before his hardware becomes >> obsolete. (These days that's when you can't even give it away any more or >> about a year, whichever comes first.) The cheapo fans and PSU's we've been >> kicking around generally last longer than that, and those fellows who have > >Bzzt! I have seen 2~4 generation upgrades done in same old cases >so can't be stated simply. Some even started out as 386 box even >smattering of XT or 286 vinage! All those boards that came out of >them are perfectly functional and resold on cosignment as used parts >for other users on very small budget to upgrade their even older >machines. Average age for a case after 4th upgrade is around 6 years >old. > People in an office don't want the same old PC (remember we're looking at the outside) they've had for more than a year. > >I have the cute 286 case holding 16X cdrom, Pentium 100, 'T2P4 etc >etc and it still bears the label '286' for fun to pick on people who >saw that case 'running' winblows. :-) Took me long time to find >that style I liked. > >Wizard. > >> Dick >

26 years, 11 months

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DEC Pro Documentation available

by djenner＠halcyon.com

I have extra copies of the following available. These are all probably for a Pro 350, if there is any machine dependency, and are all circa version 2.0 of P/OS. The software for the last version (3.2) is available at ftp.update.uu.se. Hard Disk System For Beginners User's Guide User's Guide Supplement Command Language User's Guide PRO/Sight User's Guide A few miscellaneous "Installation Manuals" for options. If any is interested, let me know. I'll send these to anyone who'll pay postage plus a small packaging fee, total to be determined, but probably not more than $10. Dave

26 years, 11 months

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imsai 2

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Of course small transformers such as in some wall warts would be a pain! <-Dave Well I've done far smaller. Like those .5"x.4" miniature audio cores. those are a pain as you have to find the smallest guage that will give the ampere/turns and core flux plus fit! Very much on topic item! Sent off EMAIL to IMSAI.NET... As most know I've been looking for a manual for my IMP-48 8048 board. Got a really nice response. Seems they didn't sell many, like maybe some 300 of them and that is why they are so scarce(as are the Docs). Oh and I'm not selling it, send gold bullion directly too... ;) Allison

26 years, 11 months

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imsai 2

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 08/19/1999 11:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, edick(a)idcomm.com writes: > ... and what, exactly, is wrong with the "barebone thing" pray tell? Last > time I bought barebones systems I got enough for a whole law firm. The > motherboards have been replaced for upgrades, but the boxes, drives, > keyboards, etc, are still in place. You were very lucky. What is wrong is that many cutthroat operators put these "barebones" systems together with faulty cpus/motherboards . . . since you're going to take it home and add some other components, if you have a problem with the system it's easy for the seller to blame any problems on components you didn't buy >from him or her: "The barebones system you sold me crashes all the time." "Let me see it . . . oh, you have these other parts in it . . . that's the problem." "But they're standard parts, and if you check them out you'll see they're properly installed." "Sorry, those parts are not compatible with the high-quality components in the system you bought from us. And that crummy software you installed is bound to cause problems. But we'll be glad to check it out for $$$ per hour." This is one of the oldest cons in the world: Sell something the buyer has to modify in order to use, then shift responsibility onto the buyer by blaming problems on buyer modifications. Then charge them out the ass. Glen Goodwin 0/0

26 years, 11 months

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Digital kinda ethernet card?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Aug 19, 12:10, Mike Ford wrote: > Subject: Digital kinda ethernet card? > I noticed my friends AlphaServer 2100 has the same card poking out the back > as one of the cards in my neatly sorted pile of old ethernet cards. The > card is ISA and the back looks as follows from bottom to top, RJ45, fat > LED, DB15 with a screw post on each end, fat LED. Is this a ethernet card? Almost certainly. The RJ45 will be 10baseT and the DA15 will be an AUI connector (sometimes called 10base5 because they'd often be connected by a drop cable to a thick wire transceiver, but in fact you could connect a 10base2 or 10baseT transceiver instead). There may be links to set which is the active port, though modern cards sometimes do that under software control, or autodetect a live link on the 10baseT when they power up. The AUI connector usually has a clip mechanism rather than screwposts, though. An ordinary miniature transceiver won't fit onto the screwposts. The only other cards you're likely to see that are similar, is a few old ISDN cards. They have an RJ45 for the S-bus (ISDN) connection, and one make did use DA15 for a serial port, but they always had one more modular jack (or 600-series jack) for a phone, too. They usually have a large (2-3" x 3-4") covered section with the telecomms section isolated inside it. Ethernet cards usually have a much smaller (1" square or so) monolithic voltage converter/isolator to generate the isolated 10V supply for the network driver. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 11 months

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About to acquire an IBM 5360...

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

On Thursday, August 19, 1999 1:11 PM, Joe [SMTP:rigdonj@intellistar.net] wrote: > Chris, > > Nope but I have a 5363 that needs a home! (currently in Florida). > > Joe > > > At 03:42 PM 8/19/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Hey, everyone. :-) > > > > I have an opprotunity to get an IBM 5360 (looks like a System/36 to > >me) with a 5224 printer (heavy beast!) and a 5291-2 monochrome display. > >Does anyone have any information on this, like how I can determine the > >amount of DASD in it, how much RAM, and what I can do with it? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Chris > > > > Chris, There seem to be a BUNCH of variants of the 536X systems so it's hard to predict what's gonna be inside. I think mine is an early example because it will only support drives up to 60MB each. Currently, it has a 60MB and a 30MB drive installed. I think some of the later models had drives in the 1GB range but, I'm not positive of that. I have a complete set of user manuals but, they don't have much detail about the hardware. As a matter of fact, I couldn't even tell ya how much RAM mine has in it. My guess is somewhere around 512KB. But, that's just a guess. The system is dog slow but, is supposed to be pretty solid. I've also got one of those heavy ass printers. Built like a rock, works like a champ! Those systems generally ran COBOL, FORTRAN, BASIC, RPG, or ASSEMBLY. Unfortunately, RPG is the only package currently installed on mine. Anyone know where I can get COBOL or FORTRAN for it? If you need help getting it going, let me know. I can't part with the DOCs but, I'll be glad to look up any info for you. BTW: A few months ago, someone was looking for "Ball Bat" ribbons. I've got a few extras and might be willing to part with a couple (make an offer). See Ya, Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 11 months

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imsal 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

What are the chances that a "collector," that being a personality type rather than just a person who saves old stuff, would go for one of these largely phony (except the front panel) IMSAI-2 as a collectible? I'd have trouble swallowing that anyone could be taken in to that extent. You won't have much trouble convincing me that there are lots of people out there who'd pay $1k for what is essentially a reproduction, no matter how authentic in places and inauthentic in others. The motto to which many people live is "appearance over substance" and that would certainly apply here. OTOH, it's hard to be discriminating where ALTAIR and IMSAI are concerned. I'm not even sure whether either of them produced a truly complete and functional board set. If a system is going to be viewed as authentic, then it has to be more than just housed in an authentic box. If it has a Tarbell FDC, then it's not an IMSAI in the true sense of the word. Now, if IMSAI didn't ever make an FDC, then there's room for debate. It's the same way with ALTAIR. If you want to claim you have an ALTAIR computer running in your basement then what's down there had best be ALTAIR stuff, not just an ALTAIR CPU in a Morrow box with a CCS FDC and a COMPUPRO serial board. If you have an Integrand box, I guess you can call your computer an Integrand no matter what's in it, since they only made the boxes, right? I think that's the mentality that drives the eBay prices up. If you have a VERY pretty Daimler Benz hood ornament, with Chevrolet wheels, a Ford engine, a BMW emblem on the rear bonnet of a Corvair, with a Corvette steering wheel, what do you call your car (not that those parts would play together) ? For the collector, it's VERY important that all the parts fit, not just essentially, but exactly. That means that if IMSAI made one (whatever that might be), your system isn't complete without it. If you restore your '57 Chevy with parts carefully sought out at the junkyards within a 1000 mile radius of your home, and with "real" parts and real lead in the body work, and original upholstery, etc, it's not the same as the one built from whatever after-market parts you could find. It may look good, but it isn't "real" is it? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 12:01 PM Subject: Re: imsal 2 >On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > >> Well, I've always thought that this guy who's building these has been >> spending *way* too much time on e-bay. I think he's counting on selling >> to the same idiots who pay $500 for a 'signature' Mac 128. > >And you know what? He probably will. > >> I dunno, your price breakdown sounds alright to me. Mebbe he figured >> that these are 'hand crafted' hence have some kinda snob appeal. > >If I had $995 to blow (like I just robbed a bank) I'd get one. > >> Ah yes, as I suspected, you're way too smart to be drawn into this >> 'Techno chic' marketing shtick. That's all it is: chic. This guy's >> just trying to 'make hay while the sun shines'. > >Hey, that's c{r}apitalism. > >> I'm convinced that the IMSAI-2 is a product designed and marketed >> expressly for the purpose of becomming a 'Hot Collectable'. I'm > >You got it. > >> confident in a couple of years you'll see E-Bay ads like this: >> >> RARE! IMSAI-2 Chassis, Complete! One of only 24 Made! L@@K! > >And you know what? It will be the first "RARE" label on an e-bay ad that >will be truthful. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 08/17/99] >

26 years, 11 months

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About to acquire an IBM 5360...

by cureau＠centuryinter.net

Hey, everyone. :-) I have an opprotunity to get an IBM 5360 (looks like a System/36 to me) with a 5224 printer (heavy beast!) and a 5291-2 monochrome display. Does anyone have any information on this, like how I can determine the amount of DASD in it, how much RAM, and what I can do with it? Thanks in advance, Chris

26 years, 11 months

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No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2]

by max82＠surfree.com

>At 12:32 AM 8/19/99 -0400, Glen wrote: >less margin. The bottom line is it costs $20 to get _anything_ substantial >from a korean factory to your local computer haus. What I'm curious about is why these korean products must be "crap". It doesn't take much skill to make a case or to make and test a power supply. On the other hand, these crap cases are getting bought up like hot cakes because there's nothing better, and there's no reason to make them higher quality. That's modern c(r)apitalism for you...

26 years, 11 months

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Bell & Howell Micromodule 85 : info wanted

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

Sorry to revive such an old thread, but I've only just caught up with list traffic since I went away... >> > > 4 5 8 C W R >> > > 3 6 9 D P D >> > > 2 7 A E L S >> > > 1 0 B F X B >> > > -------------- ------ >> > >> > Hmmmm... kinda neat if you're programming in Octal all the time... >> > then the layout gets almost, dare I use the word: 'ergonomic'.....? >> >> Aha! That makes perfect sense. Good eye. > > Well, it might if either the 4/3/2/1 and the 5/6/7/0 columns were in the > same order. ... but ... what's that 0 doing "after" the 7? In short, > I don't see it is vaguely appropriate for octal, either :) I don't much like 0 after 7, any more than I like 0 after 9 on a telephone dial (or keypad for that matter). But the layout above does give the digits 0 to 7 around a (non-circular) ring, so I think it would work for octal. I would have preferred either: C D E F 8 9 A B 4 5 6 7 0 1 2 3 which is a good octal and hex keypad, or: 7 8 9 F 4 5 6 E 1 2 3 D 0 A B C which incorporates the usual calculator pad. Anyone else have preferred layouts? Philip.

26 years, 11 months

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imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

The joke is on the one who tries to buy from a "real" elelctronics shop, where 1/4-watt resistors cost upwards of a buck . . . and the first item on the list costs $100 because that's their minimum. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Glenatacme(a)aol.com <Glenatacme(a)aol.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 10:38 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >In a message dated 08/18/1999 10:31:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > >> > rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement >> > fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. >> >> You don't get them from computer shops. You get them from _real_ >> electronics shops/supply companies. It just so happens that they also fit >> PC power supplies ;-). > >Tony, I resemble this implication! You have obviously never visited my >*computer shop* :>) > >Glen Goodwin >0/0

26 years, 11 months

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Crepuscular? (was: field maintenance print sets)

by amclaren＠microsoft.com

Very off-topic, but why is it that hackers are almost NEVER morning people?? I have a vast array of first-hand observances which complement my own intuitive feeling, that buggerising around with computers is best done around midnight to 2am. The best tech-heads are always "non compis mentis" before midday. Why is that? One of the unsolved problems of Computing Science .... Cheers, Andrew /* Disclaimer: my own opinions, not the official policy of Microsoft Corporation */ -----Original Message----- From: James Willing [mailto:jimw@agora.rdrop.com] Sent: Saturday, August 14, 1999 1:20 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: field maintenance print sets [ ... etc ... ] Gort! Remind me to never comment on threads before noon! (never fully awake before noon) B^} [ ... etc ... ]

26 years, 11 months

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imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

I've had plenty of PSU's fail, but the price is not as good an indicator of the probability as you might believe. I've got two machines of about the same age and content, yet one has had three PSU's over the 10 years it's been in use, while the other has the one it had when I got it. I realize that's unusual, but it can happen. The unfortunate fact, Tony, is that here in the U.S, because people are accustomed to paying <$25 for a case with power supply (250 Watts is the rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 2:51 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> Well . . . let's see . . . fan = $40 in q1, power supply including fan = $33 > >In the UK, a decent (==ball bearings. Papst, Etri, somebody like that) >fan is under \pounds 20.00 in 1-off. PC PSUs are a little more, so it is >often worth replacing the fan. > >> in q1. . . cabinet, including power supply and fan = $22 in q1 . . . not > >Yes, but that's a PSU with a cheap fan that will fail in a few months. >When it does, doesn't it make sense to buy a better fan and replace just >the fan (which will then last many years) than put in another PSU that will >fail in another couple of months? > >-tony >

26 years, 11 months

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imsai 2

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 08/18/1999 10:31:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > > rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement > > fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. > > You don't get them from computer shops. You get them from _real_ > electronics shops/supply companies. It just so happens that they also fit > PC power supplies ;-). Tony, I resemble this implication! You have obviously never visited my *computer shop* :>) Glen Goodwin 0/0

26 years, 11 months

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Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc)

by edick＠idcomm.com

OK, you can remove it by desoldering or whatever, but what about the distinction between the unprogrammed part, e.g. FPGA when the power's off, and when it's on and loaded? It's still hardware, isn't it? It's just different hardware when the configuration code is in it and powered, or is it? Now, what about the pseudo hard-disks sold on PCMCIA cards as "flash-disk" or whatever. Is the stuff stored there firmware or is it software? I see a change in the generalized definition of "soft" vs. "hard" in this context in a much more general sense. People talk about machine-readable copy, e.g. data on floppy disk, as "soft" copy, and they talk about purportedly fixed specifications or code segments, or definitions, as being "hard" implying they're, at least relatively, "etched in concrete," as opposed to being etched in "silly-putty" as some spec's are. It's just an observation. I was just getting comfortable referring to loadable programs/data, as one might store on rotating memory, as software, nonvolatile programs and data (Yes, tables in a code body are data.) stored in PALs, NVRAM, PROM, ROM, etc, as firmware. There's never been a question about what the stuff you see, touch, hear when it's running, and may smell when it's not, as hardware. Who knows, though. I couldn't believe it when I learned that "duhh" was in the dictionary as a word. I heard yesterday that the latest Webster has the Seinfeldism "yadda yadda yadda" as a word. <sigh> Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 10:21 AM Subject: Re: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) >Hi Dick > You can still grab it and remove it ( a little harder ). >It is still firmware. You put software into firmware. >Like most definitions, that came about early on, there >are gray areas. This entire 'what if' is silly. >Software is what runs and may be in firmware. If we didn't have >another name for a hard disk, it would have fallen >under the firmware definition. The code that runs >is still software. I had a calculator once that used a >spool of steel tape to contain the program. It was still >firmware but the information on it was software. >Dwight > >"Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote: >> You can't always unplug it. Nowadays, the PROMs are soldered in and you >> reprogram them in situ. >> >> How does that effect your definitions? >> >> Dick >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> >> >> >> >"Charles P. Hobbs" <transit(a)primenet.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have >> >> > to kill you ;-) >> >> >> >> Firmware? >> >> >> >> >> > >> >Definitely firmware. You can grab it and remove it. It is >> >plugged in. >> >Dwight >> > >

26 years, 11 months

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IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things...

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Nope. No free slot. The long slot has an IBM 3363 controller in it, and the other slot won't accept a long cart, because it hits the cooling fan. Anyone know what the short slot's for? Yes, I do have the reverence disk. The P70 has 4 SIMM slots. ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1> -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay <lemay(a)cs.umn.edu> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 11:33 AM Subject: Re: IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things... >> On 7 Aug 99 at 18:48, Olminkhof wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > >Basically what I meant is banks of two. There's two SIMMS in a bank, with >> > 2 >> > >banks, totaling 4 SIMMS. >> > > >> > >If you install three 2 MB SIMMS, instead of getting a 6 MB memory reading, >> > >you'll get a 4 MB reading and a memory error. >> > > >> > >> > >> > Nope. >> > >> > You'll get a memory error until you run the reference disk. If you have an >> > error while running the reference disk then you have the wrong type of >> > simms. >> > >> > It's not until you get to Pentiums that you need 72pin simms in pairs. >> > >> > >> > >///--->>> >> > > -Jason Willgruber >> > >> >> > >>I've never heard of this "sets of 2" stuff on these. >> > >>They use the same simms as the desktop model 70 . . ie with presence >> > >>detect circuitry. >> > >> >> > >>Hans >> > >> >> >> TMK most IBMs (as well as Ataris, Macs and NEXT) require matching simms in >> pairs, and as well presence detect in the case of MCA. There is a hardware hack >> to get around the P.D. on Peter Wendts site. While I have never tried to add a >> single simm physically except to expand the onboard memory of my 8580 to 4m >> from 2 , IIRC all the docs mention this. I would certainly be delighted if >> this were not so. I have an IBM 486 Ambra (non-MCA) which also requires memory >> in pairs but doesn't require PD and a single spare non-IBM 8meg which sits >> unused because of this limitation. I have an 8570 A-21 desktop (25mhz and 387 >> co-processor) and other PS2s. There is also a 16 meg max limitation on most of >> the PS2s altho there are workarounds for this I understand. >> >> ciao larry >> lwalker(a)interlog.com >> > >I thought that at least one of the PS/2 model 70 motherboard versions came >with 3 simm slots... I dont recall it needing simms in pairs on the >motherboard, though it does use a non-standard, PS/2 style presence >detect. > >Does the original poster have a free MCA slot for a ram expansion board? >I have one for a PS/2 model 70, that I assume would work in your system, >assuming you have the reference diskette for your machine. > >-Lawrence LeMay >

26 years, 11 months

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Still more PBX-wise. It's (acting like it's) alive!

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

Well, the power problem was easy to fix. Inside the PBX, someone had disconnected one of the live AC leads froms the screw terminal, and wrapped the end in electrical tape. Once I figured out where it went (Which was easy, it was the only unscrewed screw...) and applied power, it did all sorts of fun stuff. First, the console gets VERY confused when the things boots, and for about 30 seconds or so, the alarm goes off, all (or most of) the lights come on, and all of the various tones (intercept, dial, busy, etc.) sound at once. The tones themselved sound the same as the tones on the public network today. I was hoping for something interesting... Also, I found out the PASS and FAIL lights on the test panel are burned out. I'll have to replace them. The next thing to do is to connect some stations to it and see what happens. I think I have the proper wiring for this... Also, does anyone have the pinout of a trunk connector? You see, all we have at the destination of the PBX (Which is where I work) is Centrex service, and it sucks because we can't do PBX type stuff like music on hold, or transfer calls around, or pick up on any line from any phone... Right now when the phone rings or we have to pick up on certain phones (Cause not all of them have 4 lines, and of those that do, not all of them work.) and it's a general mess. So, what's going to be connected to this (if possible) is just 5 straight phone lines, and we'll have the Centrex service cancelled. (That way we don't have to dial 2 9s for an outside line.) SO far, from the console, I can snag a loop, and get an internal dial tone. If I dial 9 (It is touch-tone), I can get an outside line, but there's nothing on it so it's just silent. Also, I need to clean out the console buttons, right now you have to mash pretty hard to make a button go. Other than hat, I haven't been able to test much. There's no fans, and no loud noises, it just kinda sits and hums. OH, and I did (try) doing some of the test described in the DLP books, but a lot of them refrences use of a MAAP device, which is (apparently) supposed to be located in the PBX cabinet, but it isn't. The others refrence use of an "X-Ray" tape, I guess this is like XXDP to a PDP-11. But I don't have it. SO I just skipped those. Also, is there a special mailing list somewhere for people who play with old phone stuff? This is getting pretty interesting, and I really hate to keep perstering people here with this... Anyway, more tomorrow when I drag a few extensions in! -------

26 years, 11 months

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imsal 2

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:34:18 -0400 "Cini, Richard" <RCini(a)congressfinancial.com> writes: > Hello, all: > > I had several conversations with Tom Fischer over the last > few months. And I can understand the underlying premise of introducing a > "new" old computer to, IMHO, capitalize on the wave of nostalgia and the > desire to move down the power curve a bit. Not to mention recent E-Bay prices. > My other concern is cost. For $999, one gets a bullet-proof > case, new terminated, large, partially-filled backplane, a snazzy front > panel, and a power supply of dubious quality. No boards. Nothing. > Non-functional, but pretty. Well, I've always thought that this guy who's building these has been spending *way* too much time on e-bay. I think he's counting on selling to the same idiots who pay $500 for a 'signature' Mac 128. > And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much?? > Switches: 22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. FP=$100. > Maybe I have a warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was expecting > a lower number. I dunno, your price breakdown sounds alright to me. Mebbe he figured that these are 'hand crafted' hence have some kinda snob appeal. > I have some old S100 cards to play around with, but I only > have a non-working Northstar Horizon. So, I would be Tom's target > audience. I would prefer a kit, though, since I have the skill level > and interest to assemble one myself. Well that was the whole point, wasn't it, eh? You built it yourself because you a) Had more time than money or b) That's the only way you could get it. I dunno about you, but I certainly fell into the 'more time than money' category (and *still* couldn't afford it). I believe his target audience has 'more money than {time | brains}'. I dunno Rich, I always figured you as a pretty smart guy. Maybe on a budget, too. Would be better just to buy the 'unique' bits, and piece one together yourself (utilizing the PSU of your choice). BTW, what's wrong with your Horizon (just curious)? > Also, Imsai-2 is vaporware. Um, until he comes up with at least bare boards and stuff, yep, fer sure. > Conclusion: although I want an IMSAI badly, I don't think > that I'm prepared to spend $1k for an out-of-the-box non-functional > machine. Ah yes, as I suspected, you're way too smart to be drawn into this 'Techno chic' marketing shtick. That's all it is: chic. This guy's just trying to 'make hay while the sun shines'. > If I were buying an "old" non-functional IMSAI, at least I could > restore it to functioning status. I wouldn't pay $1k for that one, > either. True, although this would be the way to go, assuming the price is right. Even if you just have a pile of old boards, as i said before, just get the 'unique' stuff, then fill in the gaps with off-the-shelf items. That's essentially what we did in the old days. I'm convinced that the IMSAI-2 is a product designed and marketed expressly for the purpose of becomming a 'Hot Collectable'. I'm confident in a couple of years you'll see E-Bay ads like this: RARE! IMSAI-2 Chassis, Complete! One of only 24 Made! L@@K! Anyway, more then my $0.02, but hey, there it is. Jeff > > Rich > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Richard Cini > Vice President > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > 212-545-4402 / 212-840-6259 (fax) > rcini(a)congressfinancial.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

26 years, 11 months

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[OT] Used Exabyte wanted

by edick＠idcomm.com

I just sold my spare 8505XL, but you should have no trouble finding one for sale by searching dejanews power search using the string "SALE & EXABYTE." The software supporting these drives is so shabby that of the four major packages (of which I have all) for Windows, only one really works in the general case, and not a one works predictably. My DOS-based software works perfectly every time with it, though, as with the EXB-8200's which are more common and more poorly supported because they're SCSI-1. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 8:29 AM Subject: [OT] Used Exabyte wanted > >I'd like to pick up a used Exabyte 85xx 8mm SCSI tape drive at a good price. >An 8505 would be great, a 8500 would be OK, a robo-library would be nice >at a nice price. I'd rather buy from someone I "know" than from eBay. > >- John >

26 years, 11 months

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No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2]

by edick＠idcomm.com

Packaging, and packagin engineering is expensive. If you take a close look at those Packard-Bell or other US-made computers sold in the US, you'll see better packaging that what's common in home-built/assembled computers. Unfortunately, the better packaging accompanies a computer built with the necessary offsetting quality in the "guts" which is a shame. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 8:23 AM Subject: Re: No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2] >>At 12:32 AM 8/19/99 -0400, Glen wrote: >>less margin. The bottom line is it costs $20 to get _anything_ substantial >>from a korean factory to your local computer haus. > > >What I'm curious about is why these korean products must be "crap". It >doesn't take much skill to make a case or to make and test a power supply. > >On the other hand, these crap cases are getting bought up like hot cakes >because there's nothing better, and there's no reason to make them higher >quality. That's modern c(r)apitalism for you... >

26 years, 11 months

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imsal 2

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much?? Switches: >22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. FP=$100. Maybe I have a >warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was expecting a lower number. Multiply the above numbers by a factors of 1.5 or so, and you're about in the right ballpark (though the real factor is much closer to 4 for the power supply - $50 won't buy anything but a way-too-dinky transformer.) I did a similar calculation when deciding whether I could sell my "TIMSAI" as a commercial product, and came up with a street price for it (with very similar production costs) that would have to be close to $2000-$3000 to justify the effort. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 11 months

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imsal 2

by RCini＠congressfinancial.com

Hello, all: I had several conversations with Tom Fischer over the last few months. And I can understand the underlying premise of introducing a "new" old computer to, IMHO, capitalize on the wave of nostalgia and the desire to move down the power curve a bit. I would have no problem buying a new-old machine. I understand, though, that it's not an "as-issued" original, but a newly-manufactured unit based on original engineering drawings with some enhancements. Yes, it's not original, but, hey, it looks great from the front! I don't necessarily agree with the use of a PC power supply, but that feature makes it easy to add PC peripherals such as hard drives, floppies, or CD-R drives, should the need arise. My concern would be using legacy S100 cards on a new power buss. And this step-up regulation scheme concerns me. Why not just use a transformer from Stancor??? My other concern is cost. For $999, one gets a bullet-proof case, new terminated, large, partially-filled backplane, a snazzy front panel, and a power supply of dubious quality. No boards. Nothing. Non-functional, but pretty. And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much?? Switches: 22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. FP=$100. Maybe I have a warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was expecting a lower number. I have some old S100 cards to play around with, but I only have a non-working Northstar Horizon. So, I would be Tom's target audience. I would prefer a kit, though, since I have the skill level and interest to assemble one myself. Also, Imsai-2 is vaporware. Conclusion: although I want an IMSAI badly, I don't think that I'm prepared to spend $1k for an out-of-the-box non-functional machine. If I were buying an "old" non-functional IMSAI, at least I could restore it to functioning status. I wouldn't pay $1k for that one, either. Rich -------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Cini Vice President Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 212-545-4402 / 212-840-6259 (fax) rcini(a)congressfinancial.com

26 years, 11 months

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Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc)

by edick＠idcomm.com

You can't always unplug it. Nowadays, the PROMs are soldered in and you reprogram them in situ. How does that effect your definitions? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 1:16 PM Subject: RE: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) >"Charles P. Hobbs" <transit(a)primenet.com> wrote: >> >> > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have >> > to kill you ;-) >> >> Firmware? >> >> > >Definitely firmware. You can grab it and remove it. It is >plugged in. >Dwight >

26 years, 11 months

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imsai 2

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Actually My comments were narrowly aimed. the IMSAI was a far better >example of S100 and worth copying. Only ONE change I'd do... NO MAINS >POWER ON THE FP! Back when I'd seen one altair and a IMSAI fried by >someone comming in contact with that. It had no business there. You know, 20 years after I first put an IMSAI together I still reach in them today to wiggle around the front panel and YIKES!!. I just never, ever learn! I never fried any hardware due to the 120VAC, just me. (Once a screwdriver ended up in the wall.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 11 months

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Tektronix 4051 or 4052

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> ...I have yet to hear even a rumour of a 4054 surviving... > > Well, I can do better than just a rumour... Go here: > > http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/jcgm-mic.shtml > > and scroll down toward the bottom of the page... (things are fairly > alphabetical) > > Then the things that came with it that are not shown yet... Plotter, > printer, docs, tape libraries, ROM cartridges, etc... > > And by the way... It runs! B^} You lucky beggar! Hey! Didn't I say that when you announced the find? My memory must be going. Get the technical manuals from Tek - "Technical Data" and "Parts List and Schematics". Expensive - expect to pay $300 the pair - but worth it. Invaluable for repairs, and I have had to do several of those since I got my machine (mostly PSU failures). I can get you part numbers for the manuals if this will help. 4054A is the nicest of the 4050 series. 4054 has the large screen and A signifies faster GPIB and extended BASIC... Philip.

26 years, 11 months

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Tektronix 4051 or 4052

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

A week or two ago, Monty McGraw wrote: > I bought a Tek4051 while in the USAF in 1978. I developed several programs > using the 4051 for data collection and reduction. > > I would like to find one, probably for the nostalgia, I still have the my > old program listings. > > I saw the recent thread on the EXEC command, I figured out the EXEC command > and wrote a couple of 6800 assembly language programs (play music, dump the > ROMs to the printer, etc). As I recall the format of the command was EXEC > A$, where the string was typically read from the tape as a single file. Monty, you wonderful person! I will have to try this on my 4052. For this, if I ever find a 4054, you will get first refusal on my 4052 :-) Joe Rigdon had written: >> Good Luck! I only know of two 4051s and only one 4052. I have one of >>the >>4051s. None of them are for sale. Are you looking for one to collect or >>what? They are definitely rare. I know of two of each, the other 4052 being in the Dutch Computer Museum, but I heard rumours at VCF last year that another 4052 had been sold recently - I hope it was to a collector who will take care of it. I have yet to hear even a rumour of a 4054 surviving... Philip.

26 years, 11 months

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Modcomp Classic news

by hansp＠digiweb.com

Well my request for info on the Modcomp Classis did not result in much! One resonse to a usenet post netted someone who still runs one. Anyways, the guy that gave us the Modcomp found the complete maintenance doc set! So now I have the schematics, theroy of operation manuals, diagnostoic manuals - the works. One happy camper here is going to bring up that classic computer real soon now.... Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue <mailto:hansp@digiweb.com> <http://digiweb.com/~hansp/ccc>

26 years, 11 months

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[OT] Used Exabyte wanted

by jfoust＠threedee.com

I'd like to pick up a used Exabyte 85xx 8mm SCSI tape drive at a good price. An 8505 would be great, a 8500 would be OK, a robo-library would be nice at a nice price. I'd rather buy from someone I "know" than from eBay. - John

26 years, 11 months

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PL/I

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

IBM still offers PL/I programming tools: http://commerce.www.ibm.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce/CategoryDisplay?cgrfnbr=18253… Just thought it was interesting. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99]

26 years, 11 months

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semantics (was Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc))

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> Just to add grist for the mill, I'd point out that people now are, perhaps >> erroneously, calling recorded program material for your stereo and your TV >> 'software' as well. Now, I would call a CD or a CDROM firmware, since you >> can't really change it, but who's splitting hairs . . . > > Ah, the question of when is software software. If you want to get > really precise, I would argue that it is "stored data" when it is on > the CDROM. It does not become software until it is relocated and > available for execution in the processors address space. If you can > step a program counter (or instruction pointer or whatever you call it > on a particular architecture) across it, then it is either software or > firmware. Otherwise: If it is on paper, it is a "listing". If it is > on paper tape, it is a "dump". Etc. Of course, this opens up the > question of just what are interpreted language and p-code programs? Definitely software. Just because the program counter that steps through the code is in fact a variable in a program, rather than a register on a chip, doesn't make the code any less software. In fact, a good interpreter will probably have the program counter in a processor register if the processor has enough of these. FWIW, I would call a cd-rom a storage medium (everyone who says "a storage media" go and wash your mouths out). The code that is stored on it is software if it represents instructions for a computer. I would include embedded data (like messages the program might print) to be part of the "software", even though (you hope) they are not stepped through by the program counter. I'm not sure where you draw the line on this one - is a separate message file (a man file, for example) still software? A ROM chip is hardware. The program in it is software. Because it is stored in a ROM chip it is _also_ firmware. (IMHO). Philip.

26 years, 11 months

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imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

It's those hard drives that cause those common PSU failures! If you plug them in while the PSU is running, you'll see why someone made the remark that switchmode power supplies don't like switching loads. I know . . . I do it too, but it's one of the most frequently ignored cautions. Dick -----Original Message----- From: LordTyran <a2k(a)one.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 7:27 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> >The typical peecee PSU that you usually see in consumer stuff is not >> >that good. More like it's rated 180W max load constaniuous or so >> >for a typical 200W PSU. > >If you're lucky. I just bought (and returned) a POS PC with a 75 watt >(rated) PSU. No joke. I like to put a nice, 300W PSU in all the computers >that I build beacuse they're really not the much more expensive... and a >lot cheaper than replacing a lot of hard drives.. > >Kevin >

26 years, 11 months

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imsai 2

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 08/18/1999 10:20:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, edick(a)idcomm.com writes: > The unfortunate fact, Tony, is that here in the U.S, because people are > accustomed to paying <$25 for a case with power supply (250 Watts is the > rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement > fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. Man, that's a fact. Our wholesaler sells cases with (crap) 250 watt power supplies for US$20, 250 watt (crap) power supplies by themselves for $19, and (crap) replacement fans for $15. Can anyone provide a clue as to why this is so? Basic economics suggests that it costs a *lot* more to produce a case w/psu than a psu alone -- likewise for the psu vs. the fan . . . Glen Goodwin 0/0

26 years, 11 months

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imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

-----Original Message----- From: jpero(a)cgocable.net <jpero(a)cgocable.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 9:20 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:54:21 -0600 >> Reply-to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu >> From: "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> >> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >> Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> X-To: <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >> >Ship! > >> WHile I've only had about half a dozen motherboards die over the years, I've >> got a 55-gal drumful of dead power supplies, on most of which the fan is >> what failed. In many cases, the fan fails and then the supply gets hot and >> dies. > >Snip! > >The typical peecee PSU that you usually see in consumer stuff is not >that good. More like it's rated 180W max load constaniuous or so >for a typical 200W PSU. >If one have a Astec, SPI any decent quality make with ball bearing >fan, count on it that it will keep working and working and fewer >problems, mystery rebootings etc. > So what does one of these PSU's with a fan that lasts cost? > >We also have seen one or two blow out most of guts in peecee by a bad >quality PSU made by Evermax model. And few ATX PSUs in row that it >acted like reset button that resets machine by simply push on that >bottom pan where circuit board is. Those PSUs were only few months >old. (!!) This one I think was also by Enermax or one other I >forgot. Most of old out of warrenty PSUs were caught early with >gummed or worn out fans and we simply replaced it with sunon ball >bearing fan type. And on other items we solved this problems by only >selling ONE BRAND, Aceropen for cases and cdrom drives. Seems that >two items Acer shines well. > >That 55 gal drum of that PSUs, I bet all were sleeve bearing fans and >low quality overall. Also capacitors all dried up in some, blown >switchers, diode network. Blown out main transformer is thankfully >rare. > > Well . . . let's see . . . fan = $40 in q1, power supply including fan = $33 in q1. . . cabinet, including power supply and fan = $22 in q1 . . . not hard to figure out which they were . . . and they're marked 230 or 250 watts, BTW. > >Wizard

26 years, 11 months

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