- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

Deciphering M792-YB "ROM Diode Matrix" PDP-11 bootstrap

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

In my ongoing excavations, I've located an orphan board that I would like to return to its nest. It's a diode-strapped boot card, M792-YB. The pattern looks like this... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - o o o o o - - - - - o - o o o 0 o o o - - - - o - - - - - - - - - o - o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o - o o o o o - o o o o o o - o o - - - o - o - o o o 10 o o o o o o o o - - - - - - - - - - - o - o o o o o o o o - o o o o - o o - - - o - - - - - - - - - - o o o o o o - o o o o o o 20 o o o o o - - - - o - o - o o o o - o o o o o o o o o - o o o o o o o - o o - - - - o - o o o o o - - - - - - - o o o o o o o - 30 o o o o o - - - - - o - o o o o - - o o - - - - o o o o o o o - W o o o o - o o o o o - o o - o o O o o o o o - - - - o - o - o o o R - o - o o o o o o o o o o o o o D o o o - o o - - - - o - o o o - o - - - - - - - o o o o o o o - o o o - o o - - - - o - o o o o 50 o o - - o - - - - o o o o o o - o o o - o o o o o - o - o o o - - - - - - o - o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o 60 - o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 70 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 0 BIT 15 (- = diode installed o = diode missing) The question is, What's a one and what's a zero? Left-to-right? I don't have an -11 frontpanel or handbook in front of me; is bit 0 the MSB? Any hints? Worst case, I could translate all permutations of the bits into octal and figure out what produces the most legible bitstream, but I'd rather go into this with a little foreknowledge. The eventual goal is to disassemble the bootstrap, thus revealing what device it is for. Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

> ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> >> Incidentally the nominal Vff is given as 6.3V. I wonder how many >> modern-day engineers would realise the significance. Well, I'd assumed that f stood for filament. ___ Hey, perhaps Vcc is cathode voltage! > This is the point that zeners change from avalanche to > some other kind of break down that I can't remember > the name of. These made good noise generators. > Or, could you be talking about filiment voltages? > Dwight I was taught, avalanche breakdown above 5V, Zener breakdown (of course) below, but I'd always assumed that both mechanisms were present around the changeover point. Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk **********************************************************************

26 years, 8 months

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Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> Is it true that the first CPU-on-a-single-board was the DG Nova? >> (And it's a rather largish board, at that! Almost equivalent in >> area to all the boards in the PDP-8/E CPU put together...) >I'm not sure. The Nova certainly used large boards - 15" * 15" >- and while the original nova (and I believe supernova) and >nova 1200 got by with just one, it the 800 family used two of >those huge things. Since mechanical engineering was never a >strong suit at DG it's generally accepted to use a rubber mallet >or wooden drift to seat those boards into the backplane... And some of the later DG Nova-descended CPU's (for example, the S/230) packed an amazing amount of parts on those huge boards! Were you the one who posted looking for an S/130, Chris? Hate to tell you this, but I had a half-dozen of 'em two years ago - if you'd only been reading then! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 8 months

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outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

What I'm really after is small RAMs with separate ins and outs, and the current generation stuff doesn't seem to address that requirement. I guess I'll have to use a CPLD or FPGA with RAM inside. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 7:22 PM Subject: Re: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? >> >> So, who makes 256-byte RAM devices at TTL speeds these days. There are all > >Good question... All sorts of useful, generic, devices are no longer >made. Oh, there are millions of complex chips for particular >applications, but just try getting a small RAM, or a simple UART, or... > >> sorts of FIFOs of 256 bytes, but I can't find a simple 256-byte RAM any >> more. I also need a 32x8-bit sram, fast (preferably address-access time >> <<10ns) and preferably in a small package. > > >Remember you can always use a larger static RAM that you strictly need >and just tie the unused address lines to a defined state (e.g. ground). >So possibly you could use the same chip for both problems. > >What about the cache RAM off a PC motherboard (is that still being made?) >It was pretty fast (15ns or better?), and 32K*8 skinnydips were used I >think. Or am I a year out of date again? > >-tony >

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Memory says 82s129, I have the data sheet home in that 1971 signetics <> data book. I was my first ttl databook! < <The 82S129 was a fusible-link PROM. It was an actual device, and in <production until quite recently. And old... I had my data sheet out when I typed that... can you say transient ischemic attack {blonde moment}. I could, if I remember. <Incidentally the nominal Vff is given as 6.3V. I wonder how many <modern-day engineers would realise the significance. that's 6.3V AC, after all it is an indirectly heated cathode. ;) Don't forget the drain [as in spigot] or the bit bucket under it. <If anyone wants to get this data sheet, it's reprinted on page 605 of the <'Student Manual for the Art of Electronics' by Thomas C Hayes and Paul <Horowitz (2nd Edition, ISBN 0-521-37709-9) I consider that a classic, both the book and the data sheet. Allison

26 years, 8 months

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Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> Reminiscent of motoring in Germany. There the signs - and even the inhabitants >> - talk about speeds in km. NOT km/h, which is what they mean. Very >> confusing... > > No, that's no confusing, it's plain wrong. A speed does not have the > dimensions of a distance. Wrong it may be, but I assure you it _is_ confusing ;-) Not as confusing as tracks/side vs. tracks/disk, though, since 80km/s is not a sensible speed for a road vehicle (yet!)... Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474

26 years, 8 months

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outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Yes, those parts were OK, except that they are several orders of magnitude too slow. Volatility is not the issue, since it will be changed frequently, but it's VITAL that the parts be quick, i.e. 5-7 ns max, on address access and separate ins and outs would be best. I don't care if I waste 95% of the RAM, but it should have separate ins and outs, and I have seen VERY few of those, particularly in the speed i want. Any suggestions? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Roger Merchberger <zmerch(a)30below.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 8:13 PM Subject: Re: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? >Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >>So, who makes 256-byte RAM devices at TTL speeds these days. There are all >>sorts of FIFOs of 256 bytes, but I can't find a simple 256-byte RAM any >>more. I also need a 32x8-bit sram, fast (preferably address-access time >><<10ns) and preferably in a small package. > >Not sure who still *makes* them, but BGMicro and I think Jameco still sells >Moto 6810 & I think 68B10 parts - IIRC 128x8 parts. (No, not Meg, No, not >Kilo, but 128 Bytes... just to clarify ;-) > >Also, if you're looking for non-volitile, you could go with one of the >Dallas Semiconductor 12x887 parts - 14 bytes of control registers for the >onboard clock chip, and 114 bytes of general-purpose battery-backed RAM. > >BGMicro has some pretty weird stuff... including some really nice kits from >what I recall. www.bgmicro.com; I think they have a catalog online, if not >you can download it as a .pdf... > >Hope that helps, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers >Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > >If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead >disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

26 years, 8 months

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Wanted: Mac 128K/512K schematics and service manuals

by Marion.Bates＠Dartmouth.EDU

Hi, You might've already tried this, but on Apple's site you can search the Tech Info Library Archives for older product info: http://til.info.apple.com/tilarchive.nsf/Web+Search+Simple If you do a search for Macintosh AND 128k it turns up a bunch of articles, some with fairly technical info (pinouts and such). Good luck, -- MB --- "John Lewczyk" <jlewczyk(a)his.com> wrote: I've recently acquired one 128K and one 512K Macintosh and am looking for technical documentation on it (schematics, logic diagrams of pc boards). I thought that it would be easy to find on the web, but I've had no luck after more than a week of searching. Any help with schematics or service manuals would be appreciated. I've found some pdf files that have some rudimentary diagnostic procedures: "if the logic board is bad, replace it" "if the floppy drive is bad, replace it". The 128K's floppy isn't working, even after cleaning the coagulated lubricant and I am trying to diagnose the problem. Thanks! John jlewczyk(a)his.com --- end of quote ---

26 years, 8 months

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Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>A SMT unit *might* be interesting... I can get all the PCBs done I want for >free (must have some kind of standard blocks) but the SMT building might be >difficult. Can the new pick and place machines handle TO-3s [not on tape]? I >am sure I can find a surplus lot of a few thousand NPN/PNPs for pennies. Sometimes the cheapest man ends up paying the most :-(. When you get to designs like this, you have to have some rational scheme for pre-testing your parts before you start stuffing giant PCB's. DEC was quite proud of their part and module testing machines, and with good reason! I'm pretty sure that Poly-Pak's main source of parts was the reject bins at DEC and DG :-). (I can't be the only one here who remember Poly-Pak, can I?) Tim.

26 years, 8 months

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outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

So, who makes 256-byte RAM devices at TTL speeds these days. There are all sorts of FIFOs of 256 bytes, but I can't find a simple 256-byte RAM any more. I also need a 32x8-bit sram, fast (preferably address-access time <<10ns) and preferably in a small package. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 5:47 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> >> > > Signetics 82mumble WOM (write only memory) april first version. >> > >> > Oh, she's good. She's very good. >> >> And old... >> >> Memory says 82s129, I have the data sheet home in that 1971 signetics >> data book. I was my first ttl databook! > >The 82S129 was a fusible-link PROM. It was an actual device, and in >production until quite recently. > >I have here the Signetics data sheet for the 25120 'Fully Encoded 9046*N >Random Access Write Only Memory'. I suspect that's the one you're >thinking of. It includes graphs of 'Bit Capacity .vs. temperature', 'Iff >.vs. Vff', 'Number of pins remaining .vs. Number of socket insertions' >and 'AQL .vs. Selling Price'... :-) > >Incidentally the nominal Vff is given as 6.3V. I wonder how many >modern-day engineers would realise the significance. > >If anyone wants to get this data sheet, it's reprinted on page 605 of the >'Student Manual for the Art of Electronics' by Thomas C Hayes and Paul >Horowitz (2nd Edition, ISBN 0-521-37709-9) > >-tony >

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Tristate didn't exist in the early days of TTL; the only way to do <busses was OC or with muxes. The way this affected the design of PDP-11 <CPUs is described at length in _Computer Engineering_. Actually it did at a premium cost. The other thing is it was a lousy bus driver. You had parts like 72125/6 and 8t97. The PDP-8E also reflected the open collector heritage and that fact also allowed some things like the ability to jam data to memory and "microcode" instructions. That and it was cheap. The offset was the absolute need for the bus loads module (terminated pullups). There was another benefit, a board that was not supposed to be selected and asserting a high (or not low) didnt fry the next board asserting a low. I encounted this for the first time on s100 (a dozen 8t97s vaporized) when a control signal failed and we had a bus jam. Allison

26 years, 8 months

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Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

Eric wrote: >>Anyhow, the point is that if DEC copyrighted something in 1964, it >>IS still covered now, and the copyright belongs to Compaq unless it's >>been sold to someone else. To which I replied: >True, but in this case I think we're talking about copying the circuit, and >not the patent on the PCB artwork. And that's what is covered by a >patent, if anything. Oops! I got at least three things wrong in those two sentences. Let's try it again: True, but in this case we're talking about copying the circuit, and not about an exact copy of the PCB artwork. The artwork might be covered by a copyright, but the circuit is protected by a patent, and that's expired by now. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 8 months

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Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Anyhow, the point is that if DEC copyrighted something in 1964, it >IS still covered now, and the copyright belongs to Compaq unless it's >been sold to someone else. True, but in this case I think we're talking about copying the circuit, and not the patent on the PCB artwork. And that's what is covered by a patent, if anything. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 8 months

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8T26 buffers (was Re: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives)

by edick＠idcomm.com

The National Semi DP8304 is a bidirectional bus buffer, but the 8T26 and 8T28 were only for a bidirectional bus on one side. The other side was separate in and out. They're not uncommon on S-100 boards. The DP8304 is bidirectional on both sides, like a '245. In fact it's exactly the same as the i8286. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 4:46 PM Subject: 8T26 buffers (was Re: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives) >> Not that I normally advocate this sort of cannibalism, but does not the >> Apple ][ use 8T26 bus buffers? They certainly are more common than OSI gear. > >No. Early Apple ][ used an octal bidirectional buffer whose exact part >number I've forgotten, but it was something like 8308. Later revs replaced >it with the 74LS245, which was not pin compatible. Some boards were >dual-patterned to accept either, although the socket was installed for >one, precluding the use of the other. > >8T26 chips are not that hard to find. I can probably supply some >if anyone needs them, although I'll charge a premium to cover my >handling costs.

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I've also been thinking about "cloning" a kinda 32bit clone of the <famous <TMS 9900. This chip had it's registers in memory and if such a design <would incorporate cache memory the results would still be respectable. <Especially if it could be done with programmable-asic technology. Doable and even without cache it can be fast as the moderm memory (under 10ns parts). Granted it doesnt take much to beat the old 9900 that clocked in at 4mhz for the "fast" parts and used 400ns memory. My favorite would be to do a stretch PDP-8, simple and could be very fast using FPGAs. Allison

26 years, 8 months

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Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?)

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 2:14 PM Subject: RE: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) >>Ok, so who would be interested in creating a repository of "generic" gate >>designs? >> >>Are the flip chip cards copyrighted? (Somehow I doubt Compaq would come >>after us if we started building them :-) > >The PC artwork might be copyrighted, but the protection on the circuit >design would be a patent. And the patents have (in the case of >the "classic" technology being discussed) almost certainly expired >by now. > >>Are they the correct technology? I like 'em because you can get to parts of >>the circuit easily, but it is more compact to put everything on just a few >>boards. >> >>Have we ruled out using SMT technology? We could easily build a 16 bit >>register on a single flip chip sized card with SMT stuff. > >I, personally, don't think that surface mount is the way to go. I'd prefer >to see all the transistors in TO-3 cans, though of course real transistors >on flip chips often were TO-92's, and these offer a definite cost and >density advantage (as does SMT, but I think that's a bit too far!) The flip chips (R205 - Dual Flip Flop) used 61 diodes, 4 transistors, 24 resistors, and 8 capacitors. Most of the Flip Chips I have are pre '67 so they have the "round" transistors rather than the newer looking TO-92.I would not even want to build ONE of these! BTW: The modules were "Copryright 1964 DEC" so the patent is long gone. If anyone has a particular OLDER processor that would be interesting if converted to transistors then please email me (with any links to the CPU info if you have it). I do have quite a few analog flip chips so the processor *could* do something interesting. A SMT unit *might* be interesting... I can get all the PCBs done I want for free (must have some kind of standard blocks) but the SMT building might be difficult. Can the new pick and place machines handle TO-3s [not on tape]? I am sure I can find a surplus lot of a few thousand NPN/PNPs for pennies. If something can be put together here *collectively* (a LOT less parts than the usual Flip Chip board) I would be willing to buy some time on a Pick and Place around here and have it knocked out. john > >Tim. >

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

These days, no one would seriously attempt to build a CPU equivalent using TTL SSI/MSI components simply because the packaging gets too much in the way of smooth data flow. I once built a 650x CPU equivalent on a 4"x6" wirewrap board using TTL SSI/MSI, but it was my goal to build one using the logic available to the original designers. That was not easy, but it fit only because of the efficiencies inherent in the 650x series timing and instruction set. If one were to do the same thing with an 8080 CPU design, I suspect it could be forced to fit on a board like an S-100 card. It might be difficult to do in "period" family logic, i.e. with the parts that were available to the designers of the 8080, though. If you'd like to convince yourself of this, take a look at the '72 TTL data book from T.I. or Signetics. If one were limited to 28-pin FPLD's and smaller, I think it could be done easily enough. That would take the emphasis off parts search and the occasional unavailability of some functions, while allowing some random logic to be localized in a single device rather than requiring several different flavors of AOI gates, expanders, etc. The internal data paths of the 8080 could more easily be done with today's tristate devices than back in '72-'74 with muxes of various types. There are FPGA cores, though . . . I personally think it would be fun to build an S-100 card to replace the 8080 LSI. It might well be possible to replace all the external support logic with the hardware that goes "inside" the device, and you could fiddle with the instruction set more or less like the folks with wire-wrapped PDP8 processors did from time to time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:25 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >> components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >> CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > >One of the vendors of bit-slice components (AMD 2900 or clone, I think) >offered a board that emulated an 8080. In addition to being faster than >an 8080, you could of course modify the microcode to add or change >instructions. IIRC, it looked like the board had about fifty chips. > >If you didn't use a bit-slice, you'd have to use separate ALU, memory, >and shifter chips, and you'd wind up with even more. > >The early microprocessor architectures were designed based on minimal >transistor count for a single-chip implementation. This does not result >in minimal chip count if you implement the equivalent in 7400-series >chips. It is quite possible to design useful processors with a lot fewer >TTL chips.

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>The other thing is that the 9100 is incredibly simple. Seriously. HP >pulled all sorts of tricks to reduce the component count, not all of >which would be applicable to other designs. Not only did they pull all the tricks, but they made a very nice product in the end, too. Gees, there was this other HP engineer famous for low component counts, started this computer company in the 70's when HP decided they weren't interested in his ideas. I think the guy goes by the name Wozniak and for some reason I believe Apple is still around :-). Tim.

26 years, 8 months

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Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Doug Coward <mranalog(a)home.com> wrote: > Dave Dameron wrote: > > The bad chips were all made by TI. I, too, have had bad experiences with 1970s TI chips and pin corrosion. I'm wondering if that's the problem with my Heathkit H-27 controller. No broken pins but lots of blackened ones (silver oxides). > Four of the 5 broken chips are TI 8T26s and the fifth is a TI 74123. > --Doug Not that I normally advocate this sort of cannibalism, but does not the Apple ][ use 8T26 bus buffers? They certainly are more common than OSI gear. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 8 months

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Approaching Scrappers

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

You are quite right Mike. I personally know some of the owners/controllers of some of the largest scrap companies (thats how I get all my minis) and the guys I deal with get contracts to level factories and mills. They don't know what a PDP 8 is and don't care. They want to either relocate some of the major machinery or melt it before setting the explosives in the building. Most of these companies don't care if you'd be willing to pay $1000 or even $2000 for a PDP as most of the contracts they get are worth millions. Best approach I have found is accept ANY and ALL minis/mainframes that come their way. I don't dicker with them and don't him and ha... If they have an old Wang or some old IBM then I take it anyway and scrap it for parts... A company I am going into at the end of this month has minis that were installed before 1968. No one has any idea what they are and no one cares. The factory is being levelled in middle November and anything that is left will have the building dropped on it. (I did however find out from a prior purchasing officer that the systems I am pulling out are: Vax 11/780 - yuck, I'll trash that. IBM 360 and/or Classic PDP 8 (seems they possibly had both) and other minis that controlled various processes The controller refered to old system as a "huge computer that filled up a room , we didn't get rid of it because it wasn't worth moving". If you have deep pockets to buy every computer mini they find in an old factory then you can score quite often. john -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 3:36 PM Subject: Re: Approaching Scrappers >>on them, but to no avail. They have bigger fish to fry >>(like aircraft fuselage assembly jigs, for example). > >Man I am really suffering from rejection. One of the salvage joints I like >just made the back room closed to everybody including me. Bigger fish to >fry, insurance, theft, etc. and now nobody can look in the boxes. I'm >getting a bit shaky already, and the withdrawal hasn't even hit strong yet. >I gotta find a new yard to poke in soon, or who knows what could happen (I >might fix the upstairs toilet or something crazy). > >Maybe my point is approach with caution. Like it or not, you aren't the >thing that pays the bills at the end of the month. They may like that cash >once in awhile, but don't do ANYTHING to disturb the main money flow. Help >out if you can and the person wants it, ie sort out a box of cables etc. > >Nothing gets you in tighter with a scrapper than giving them leads. Give >them a contact that pans out with a contract, or even a one time deal, and >they may even answer your phone calls. > >

26 years, 8 months

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Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?)

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 3:13 PM Subject: Re: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) >At 02:28 PM 10/20/99 -0400, Allison wrote: >>Flip chips, M series and all were really dictated not by what could be put >>on a board but how many connections the bord could make. For a flip chip >>it was 18 or 36 (someone?). A 16 bit parallel load register like say a >>pair of LS573s would need 32 IO, plus power and controls. See the >>problem? > >Ok, so this suggests a possible solution/idea. We use simm sockets. You can >get them fairly cheaply, there is a wirewrap version, and the PC houses all >have a standard template for the bottom of the board. I suppose one could >even make a Q-bus that small (its 72 pins as well IIRC). You bring up a good point. If a board can be designed with TWO connections to the simm socket (one on top, and one on the bottom) so that you would flip the board for one operation and flip it the other way for another operation then prob. two different types of boards could be used for the whole CPU: ie: BOARD 1 side 1: 4 FF, 2 Inverters, 2 nand/nor side 2: 2 xor, 2 and/nor, ??? BOARD 2 side 1: one shot, pulse amp, etc.. side 2: more gates and inverters. limiting the CPU to two boards means I can ship it over to a manufacturer in Taiwan I have used before. 2 boards in 500 quantities/ea with just transistors and diodes(+ res + cap) is quite cheap. Maybe they would charge $2/ea. I designed a Frequency synthesized data transmitter (FM) with synth, risc chip, and many support transistors for a product. I could not keep up the production with my guys at the time so we shipped it off to Tiawan and they knocked them out in Qtys of 500 for $8 ea (PCB, parts, built and tested). I could not even buy the parts in qtys of 5000 for $8 here. Anyway, it seems this CAN be done quickly and cheaply if two boards can be standardized with a series of gates and flip flops. Should be serial, smaller and more fun! john > >Unlike Tim I think TO-3's would be way to much of a pain, but TO-92s are fine. > >--Chuck >

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Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> Are they the correct technology? I like 'em because you can get to parts of >> the circuit easily, but it is more compact to put everything on just a few >> boards. >Flip chips, M series and all were really dictated not by what could be put >on a board but how many connections the bord could make. For a flip chip >it was 18 or 36 (someone?). A 16 bit parallel load register like say a >pair of LS573s would need 32 IO, plus power and controls. See the >problem? > >Even TTL chips hit the wall in pins/functions per package. Exactly - it's not a question of "do we have the parts?" but "Can we connect all the parts together usefully?". Is it true that the first CPU-on-a-single-board was the DG Nova? (And it's a rather largish board, at that! Almost equivalent in area to all the boards in the PDP-8/E CPU put together...) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

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OT: how big would it be?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I have trouble with the notion of the uart filling a 9 x 11 board given >that I'm holding one that's occupying 4 x 5 inches in SSI. Yeah, the shift >registers would take a bunch of space but I don't see it using anywhere >near the amount of real estate suggested. I'd suggest a electromechanical (or optomechanical) UART instead. You know, like in a Teletype :-). >> A pdp-8 (early) had a pannel roughly 24"x50" with flip chip modules mostly >> transistors and the 4k core was a 10" tall rack section. for rough >> comparison. In many respects the 8080 is a far more complex CPU and would >> be significantly bigger. It would also be slow compared to the NMOS part. >I suspect you could build a pdp-8 using contemporary layout tools and discrete >technology that, excluding the core stack, was an order of magnitude smaller. And repackaging would also save a lot of money: a large part of the cost of a Straight-8 is all those gold plated fingers and edge connectors, and the backplane wiring. Get rid of that - so that your CPU resides on a single (even if large) PC board - and you're way ahead. (Well, way ahead if everyone else is still in 1965...) >> Doing it in ttl or bit slices would still be big, I've done that. using >> 2900 parts(ca mid to late '70s) the CPU equivelent was over 100 chips and >> filled 4 10x8" cards. >That sounds about right; I recall building a PDP-11 clone using 2901/2910 parts >as part of an undergraduate CPU architecture course in the same era and using >about the same number of parts. Of course it's also possible to do it on a single card using SSI and MSI TTL, maybe with a few bipolar PROM's. Take a look at the 11/04 CPU or the original Nova, for example. I recall - back in the mid-70's - that Radio Shack sold transistor-based logic module kits (PC boards) that could be strung together to make things like binary counters, etc. Does anyone else here remember these? Or, even better, still have the modules around? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

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OT: how big would it be?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Well . . . if you mean really discrete, i.e. no TTL SSI/MSI stuff, you need >to recall that a single flip-flop was resistors, capacitors and a handful of >transistors. >... >There, methinks you'd be talking about a board as big as your dining room >table, with miles of wire, and potentially millions of errors to correct. No, it doesn't have to be as big as a dining room table. Like I said, I own several examples of bit-serial processors implemented using discrete components - for example, my Monroe programmable calculator - which pack everything onto a few square feet of printed circuit board, and not incredibly dense PCB's at that. There are other examples of bit-serial processors in my collection - for instance, the HP 9100A - where there is some, but not much, integration used. The big PCB in the 9100A is the ROM, while the processor itself resides on a daughtercard! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

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OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well . . . if you mean really discrete, i.e. no TTL SSI/MSI stuff, you need to recall that a single flip-flop was resistors, capacitors and a handful of transistors. Really cramming the parts together still meant a flipflop took up space equivalent to, say, a postage stamp. I've seen claims that some old-style CPU's (e.g. 8080) could be built in programmable logic using fewer than 500 macrocells in a large CPLD. Now, that's a BUNCH of logic gates, maybe four transistors and some resistors, and 500 of these postage-stamp sized flipflops. There, methinks you'd be talking about a board as big as your dining room table, with miles of wire, and potentially millions of errors to correct. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 8:24 AM Subject: RE: OT: how big would it be? >>I know its off-topic but i figured that since most of the poeple on this >>list work or have worked on the really big stuff you'd know better than >>most others. >> >>Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >>components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >>CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > >Well, others have guessed at the 8080 Clone, but I'll step in and point >out that if minimal part count is an important feature, then you can >get by with a *lot* less. Especially if you go to a bit-serial >architecture. (Something that's still mentioned in many computer >architecture textbooks, even if it isn't used much anymore!) > >How big? I'll venture a guess that a 12-bit serial CPU >could be done on one largish (i.e. a square foot) PC board, using >TO-92's, resistors, capacitors, and diodes. This isn't too far >out of line with many bit-serial designs from the late 1960's >(for example, many bit-serial desktop calculators used a PC board >- or two or three - about this size.) > >Total cost? Maybe $1500 in large scale production, including testing >costs. > >Of course, you now hook up memory to this CPU. Doing that with >discretes would be a chore! > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

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Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> Calling a DS 40 cylinder drive (like the ones in the original PC) an '80 > track drive' _is_ actually correct. > > > surely would not disagree that some people [incorrectly] refer to the > > 100-4 and 1.2M drives as an "80 track" drive. And you certainly won't > > However, I also agree with this. Common usage would call the PC 360K > drive a '40 track drive'. And I will also admit that I tend to make this > error myself :-( > > I will agree that the original statement is confusing, sure. And it's not > common usage. But it is still correct. Reminiscent of motoring in Germany. There the signs - and even the inhabitants - talk about speeds in km. NOT km/h, which is what they mean. Very confusing... Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474

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Diablo 31/33 drives

by chris＠mainecoon.com

I'm looking for a diablo 31 or 33 drive (the 31 was the one with the door, the 33 is the one that you have to rip apart to get your pack out). I'm also looking for a Decision 3150 controller for same. While I'm wishing for the impossible, I might as well add the other (current) items on my wish-list: EDS mux boards for the Nova bus An Eclipse S/200 An Eclipse S/130 A paper tape reader. Hell, I'd be happy with an ASR 33 at this point. And in the only-in-my-dreams category: An original ("baby") nova or supernova An Eclipse S/230 Of course, if it's a 16 bit DG machine, something that plugs into same or something that just looks good sitting next to it I'm interested. Cash, trades or body parts. Thanks, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris(a)mainecoon.com chris(a)dtiinc.com http://www.mainecoon.com http://www.dtiinc.com

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Fixing an ST412?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Yes, I believe I have one. I can't lay hands on the manual right away, but maybe by 10:00 pm (it's about 6:20 pm now) I'll have it in hand. IIRC, the index pulse is generated from a hall sensor which looks at the spindle. So long as you get only one index pulse per revolution, and so long as those revolutions are close to the rated speed (60 Hz) they should satisfy nearly any controller's needs and allow the drive to be low-level formatted. Dick Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 3:33 PM Subject: Fixing an ST412? >Short question : Does anyone have a Shugart ST412 service manual? > >Long Question : As some people here know, I'm slowly rebuilding a DEC >rainbow. And today it got to the point where it was worth trying to boot >it. It booted fine from the RX50 floppy drive, but not from the RD51 (aka >ST412) winchester. > >A little bit of probinf with a LogicDart revealed that the drive was >producing no index pulses, although it was spinning. There are schematics >for the older version in the IBM O&A techref, and using these as a >reference, I quickly found that the index sensor itself was producing no >output. > >Off with the logic board, and I found that the index sensor was loose in >the clamp, and about 1/4" from the arms on the motor that trigger it. >I adjusted it closer, tightened it up, put it all together, and it seems >fine. The 'Bow boots from the winchester and seems to be able to run >programs, etc. > >What I want to know is is there a proper procedure for adjusting this >sensor? Is there a particular value quoted for the gap between the sensor >and the arms? > >As I said, it's OK now, but I might as well do it right. > >-tony >

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Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives

by mranalog＠home.com

> ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:41:47 -0400 "Bill Sudbrink" <bill(a)chipware.com> said: > I've hunted around on the web to no avail... > Can anybody give me the specs on these? According to my Tandon OEM Operating and Service Manual for the TM100-1 and TM100-2: Tracks per inch 48 TPI both drives Tracks per drive TM100-1 40 tracks, TM100-2 80 tracks Disk Rotational Speed 300 RPM +/- 1.5% Motor Start Time 250 milliseconds Motor Stop Time 150 milliseconds Seek Time,track to track 5 milliseconds Head Settling Time 15 milliseconds Ave Track Access Time 75 milliseconds Typ. Recording Modes FM,MFM,MMFM Data Transfer Rate 250,000 bits per second Unformated Cap. TM100-1 250Kb per disk, TM100-2 500Kb per disk Bill, Let me know if you need a copy of this. Thanks again for the C4P boot disks. The C4P-MF is coming along nicely. The power supply checks out and I'm pulling every socketed chip and reseating it during the cleaning. So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets. Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets. Now I just need to pick-up some replacement 8T26 bus driver/receivers and then check all of those 2114s on the two 527 Ram boards and I'll be ready to fire this thing up. :) --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ====================================================

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OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Yes, I agree that you'd want to approach things differently than you do your work. Perhaps an attempt at wire-wrapping a processor with "period" components? I mentioned that I did that once. It wasn't until I tried that that I came to appreciate how thrifty the processor really is when compared with others. Of course, you may not find that to be fun either. Building an S-100-based 8080 core out of TTL offers an added benefit in that the 8080 timing logic suits the S-100 bus signal layout and timing. When you're done, there's a wealth of software you can play with. I would say you ought to be able to build a processor core twice as fast as the original 8080A, jet using only a single supply. It's not likely I'll do that, but it is a tempting notion. Dick -----Original Message----- From: daniel <daniel(a)internet.look.ca> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 11:06 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:33 PM >Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? > > >>Why not explore this problem from the standpoint of an FPGA? When you >>finish you'd still have the flexibility of a hand-built device, yet what >you >>learned in the process would potentially be of actual use? >> > >(if this was directed at me) > >I have to design that kind of crap now, every day. I just got *into* >transistor computers and find it quite interesting to see what games I can >play with old RTL type stuff. > >>Why squander your cash and intellectual resources on creating something the >>folks in the '70's electronics industry were striving to avoid when you >>could have the same mental exercise in a productive form that made the >>design and implementation of your architecture the core of your effort >>rather than issues which are no longer relevant, like power consumption, >>packaging, and finding the appropriate materials from which to build your >>device? Signal routing is the one issue which persists from that era of >>yesteryear when a CPU lived in multiple racks, but it's handled, at least >>superficially, by the development software. Sharing flipflop packages or >>gates between two circuits on a backplane with 50 cards of logic in it is >no >>easy matter. What's more, the propagation delays will slow your circuit >>down to cycles in multiple microseconds, while correcting the associated >>routing errors will take multiple days for each one. While it's not >>perfect, the FPGA approach allows you to have these experiences with a >>"virtual" closet-sized backplane with similarly "virtual" cards (modules) >of >>logic which you can design hierarchically and based on your needs, not on >>what the local parts vendor happens to have. >> > >I design high speed logic (some basic config cpu cores) now using Xilinx and >even some AMD chips (yes, I use to use the MACH stuff) all with various RISC >chips. I don't want to come home at night and *continue* the same type of >design work (or code). I find it more entertaining to work on an 8/S , not >drop one in a chip [though that might be interesting]. I try to spend my >time on the old systems which is what taught me back in '79 so much about >the new ones. > >This unit will be nothing more than a conversation piece (in my office, >hopefully doing some small task) and I hope to have some fun with quick and >dirty logic. > >If my PDP-8/S wasn't so *mint* in the rack I'd rip it out, drop it in a 8/E >table top case and drag it into the office to do something fun. > >john > > >>Dick >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Mike Cheponis <mac(a)Wireless.Com> >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >>Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:35 AM >>Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> >> >>>> > Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only >individual >>>> > components, no ICs only modern discrete(?) components. How big would >>the >>>> > CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any >>guesses? >>> >>>It seems to me the Right Answer is to approximate the number of >transistors >>>required. How many transistors did an 8080 have? (Do remember, however, >>>that the transistor count is actually less than you'd need with discrete >>>transistors, because the on-chip transistors can have multpile emitters or >>>gates or whatever in the same device.) >>> >>>As for how "big" it would be (that is, its size), modern discrete >>transistors >>>are available in tiny SOT-23 or even tinier packages. Resistors are >>>available in 0402 and maybe smaller. Line widths on PC boards can perhaps >>>be as small as .002 inches, and they can be many layers, a dozen or more. >>> >>>So, in order to compute the size, I think you'd need to make two >estimates: >>> >>>1) The number of transistors per cubic inch (or cm if you like those >units) >>> >>>2) The number of transistors required. >>> >>>This assumes some packaging/connector allowance is taken into account to >>>estimate the number of transistors per cubic whatever. >>> >>>------ >>> >>>IMHO, if you're going to build something from transistors, why not build >>>something that was originally built with transistors? For example, the >>>IBM 1620, 1130, 1401, etc. Or if you really want to get funky, try >>something >>>like transistorizing a tube machine, like ENIAC or JOHNNIAC or Bendix >G-15. >>>-That- could be entertaining... >>> >>>-Mike Cheponis >>> >> >

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OT: how big would it be?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 2:09 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >On Wed, 20 Oct 1999, daniel wrote: > >> Allison: You worked on transistor 8s? How did they impliment the 20mA >> current loop. I posted a message a while back about how it *was* set up in >> this cpu. The schematics of a PT08 show nothing other than one TTY line >> right into the receiver board. > >It was a transistor level converter from logic levels to 20ma. the >circuit for wich is fairly simple. It was the serial/deserial hardware >that ate a few boards. As in the case of the most 8's the tx/rx data was >directly to the Accumulator. There were designs that would stall the >machine while the bits were serialized/deserialized and written one by one >to Acc. Saved registers but the cpu was stopped for about 1/10th second. > >Allison > I know that but do you know the original circuit used between the teletype and the receiver board? I have a simple circuit running now. The current backplane shows R107 (inverters) john >

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Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Ok, so who would be interested in creating a repository of "generic" gate >designs? > >Are the flip chip cards copyrighted? (Somehow I doubt Compaq would come >after us if we started building them :-) The PC artwork might be copyrighted, but the protection on the circuit design would be a patent. And the patents have (in the case of the "classic" technology being discussed) almost certainly expired by now. >Are they the correct technology? I like 'em because you can get to parts of >the circuit easily, but it is more compact to put everything on just a few >boards. > >Have we ruled out using SMT technology? We could easily build a 16 bit >register on a single flip chip sized card with SMT stuff. I, personally, don't think that surface mount is the way to go. I'd prefer to see all the transistors in TO-3 cans, though of course real transistors on flip chips often were TO-92's, and these offer a definite cost and density advantage (as does SMT, but I think that's a bit too far!) Tim.

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OT: how big would it be?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Mike Cheponis <mac(a)Wireless.Com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 11:28 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> > Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >> > components, no ICs only modern discrete(?) components. How big would the >> > CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > >It seems to me the Right Answer is to approximate the number of transistors >required. How many transistors did an 8080 have? (Do remember, however, >that the transistor count is actually less than you'd need with discrete >transistors, because the on-chip transistors can have multpile emitters or >gates or whatever in the same device.) > >As for how "big" it would be (that is, its size), modern discrete transistors >are available in tiny SOT-23 or even tinier packages. Resistors are >available in 0402 and maybe smaller. Line widths on PC boards can perhaps >be as small as .002 inches, and they can be many layers, a dozen or more. > >So, in order to compute the size, I think you'd need to make two estimates: > >1) The number of transistors per cubic inch (or cm if you like those units) > >2) The number of transistors required. > >This assumes some packaging/connector allowance is taken into account to >estimate the number of transistors per cubic whatever. > >------ > >IMHO, if you're going to build something from transistors, why not build >something that was originally built with transistors? For example, the >IBM 1620, 1130, 1401, etc. Or if you really want to get funky, try something >like transistorizing a tube machine, like ENIAC or JOHNNIAC or Bendix G-15. >-That- could be entertaining... > That might be an interesting thing to do but I have no information on any of those cpus. Really, have to sit down and find "the ulimate" cpu to transistorize. 4004 seems reasonable (from the new stuff), I would not want to try and build a staight 8 from scratch. I work heavily now with xilinx and embedded applications (pic and scienix). Allison: You worked on transistor 8s? How did they impliment the 20mA current loop. I posted a message a while back about how it *was* set up in this cpu. The schematics of a PT08 show nothing other than one TTY line right into the receiver board. >-Mike Cheponis >

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>If my PDP-8/S wasn't so *mint* in the rack I'd rip it out, drop it in a 8/E >table top case and drag it into the office to do something fun. Will an 8/S fit in an 8/E table-top case? I don't have an 8/S myself, but in the pictures I've seen it looks to be a bit taller than the 8/E's 6 SU's (10.5 inches). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

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OT: how big would it be?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

A PDP-8 or a PDP-8/S. Both were made with transistors alone. PDP-8/S (filing cabinet) BTW: I am building an Intel 4004 or possible an 8008 with flip chip modules. Will tell you when I start it. john -----Original Message----- From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 2:12 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >I'd say about the size of a HP 9100. But it isn't a 8080 clone. > > Joe > >At 01:40 AM 10/20/99 -0400, you wrote: >>I know its off-topic but i figured that since most of the poeple on this >>list work or have worked on the really big stuff you'd know better than >>most others. >> >>Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >>components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >>CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? >> >>pbboy >> >

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OT: how big would it be?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

Do you have a list of bit-serial processors [without much integration]? I would be interested in finding more.......... hopefully. john -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:57 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >>Well . . . if you mean really discrete, i.e. no TTL SSI/MSI stuff, you need >>to recall that a single flip-flop was resistors, capacitors and a handful of >>transistors. >>... >>There, methinks you'd be talking about a board as big as your dining room >>table, with miles of wire, and potentially millions of errors to correct. > >No, it doesn't have to be as big as a dining room table. Like I said, >I own several examples of bit-serial processors implemented using >discrete components - for example, my Monroe programmable calculator - >which pack everything onto a few square feet of printed circuit board, >and not incredibly dense PCB's at that. > >There are other examples of bit-serial processors in my collection - >for instance, the HP 9100A - where there is some, but not much, integration >used. The big PCB in the 9100A is the ROM, while the processor itself >resides on a daughtercard! > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 >

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OT: how big would it be?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:33 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >Why not explore this problem from the standpoint of an FPGA? When you >finish you'd still have the flexibility of a hand-built device, yet what you >learned in the process would potentially be of actual use? > (if this was directed at me) I have to design that kind of crap now, every day. I just got *into* transistor computers and find it quite interesting to see what games I can play with old RTL type stuff. >Why squander your cash and intellectual resources on creating something the >folks in the '70's electronics industry were striving to avoid when you >could have the same mental exercise in a productive form that made the >design and implementation of your architecture the core of your effort >rather than issues which are no longer relevant, like power consumption, >packaging, and finding the appropriate materials from which to build your >device? Signal routing is the one issue which persists from that era of >yesteryear when a CPU lived in multiple racks, but it's handled, at least >superficially, by the development software. Sharing flipflop packages or >gates between two circuits on a backplane with 50 cards of logic in it is no >easy matter. What's more, the propagation delays will slow your circuit >down to cycles in multiple microseconds, while correcting the associated >routing errors will take multiple days for each one. While it's not >perfect, the FPGA approach allows you to have these experiences with a >"virtual" closet-sized backplane with similarly "virtual" cards (modules) of >logic which you can design hierarchically and based on your needs, not on >what the local parts vendor happens to have. > I design high speed logic (some basic config cpu cores) now using Xilinx and even some AMD chips (yes, I use to use the MACH stuff) all with various RISC chips. I don't want to come home at night and *continue* the same type of design work (or code). I find it more entertaining to work on an 8/S , not drop one in a chip [though that might be interesting]. I try to spend my time on the old systems which is what taught me back in '79 so much about the new ones. This unit will be nothing more than a conversation piece (in my office, hopefully doing some small task) and I hope to have some fun with quick and dirty logic. If my PDP-8/S wasn't so *mint* in the rack I'd rip it out, drop it in a 8/E table top case and drag it into the office to do something fun. john >Dick > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mike Cheponis <mac(a)Wireless.Com> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:35 AM >Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? > > >>> > Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >>> > components, no ICs only modern discrete(?) components. How big would >the >>> > CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any >guesses? >> >>It seems to me the Right Answer is to approximate the number of transistors >>required. How many transistors did an 8080 have? (Do remember, however, >>that the transistor count is actually less than you'd need with discrete >>transistors, because the on-chip transistors can have multpile emitters or >>gates or whatever in the same device.) >> >>As for how "big" it would be (that is, its size), modern discrete >transistors >>are available in tiny SOT-23 or even tinier packages. Resistors are >>available in 0402 and maybe smaller. Line widths on PC boards can perhaps >>be as small as .002 inches, and they can be many layers, a dozen or more. >> >>So, in order to compute the size, I think you'd need to make two estimates: >> >>1) The number of transistors per cubic inch (or cm if you like those units) >> >>2) The number of transistors required. >> >>This assumes some packaging/connector allowance is taken into account to >>estimate the number of transistors per cubic whatever. >> >>------ >> >>IMHO, if you're going to build something from transistors, why not build >>something that was originally built with transistors? For example, the >>IBM 1620, 1130, 1401, etc. Or if you really want to get funky, try >something >>like transistorizing a tube machine, like ENIAC or JOHNNIAC or Bendix G-15. >>-That- could be entertaining... >> >>-Mike Cheponis >> >

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:25 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? <snip> >(And before y'all argue about backdraws, of course I know that >it is close to imposssible to get the TTL running at 1 MHz inside >the NMOS specs, but that can be solved by lowering the CPU clock >and selecting an aprobiate Application :) > >I just belive this would give a _great_ display - unlike all >these dump displays where they put a sack of transistors beside >a uP and tell you just that they are equivalent. > My point exactly. There is no practical application to build this like there is no practical reason not to junk every old computer around. They make a great display and are fun to play with. I'd rather have a few hundred Flip Chips doing something rather than collecting dust as *spares* on a shelf. john >Anyway >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK >

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Hey! That must be the same UART board I have lying about somewhere. It has a bunch of shift registers in to-5 cans (to save space) and calculates parity using a JK flipflop. This thread seems to have started with the notion of even building the flipflops from discrete transistors and passives. That 4x5-inch board would grow to the size of a closet door using that thechnology. What's more, the power would have to be distributed with #16 wire. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:46 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >>I have trouble with the notion of the uart filling a 9 x 11 board given >>that I'm holding one that's occupying 4 x 5 inches in SSI. Yeah, the shift >>registers would take a bunch of space but I don't see it using anywhere >>near the amount of real estate suggested. > >I'd suggest a electromechanical (or optomechanical) UART instead. You >know, like in a Teletype :-). > >>> A pdp-8 (early) had a pannel roughly 24"x50" with flip chip modules mostly >>> transistors and the 4k core was a 10" tall rack section. for rough >>> comparison. In many respects the 8080 is a far more complex CPU and would >>> be significantly bigger. It would also be slow compared to the NMOS part. > >>I suspect you could build a pdp-8 using contemporary layout tools and discrete >>technology that, excluding the core stack, was an order of magnitude smaller. > >And repackaging would also save a lot of money: a large part of the cost >of a Straight-8 is all those gold plated fingers and edge connectors, and >the backplane wiring. Get rid of that - so that your CPU resides on >a single (even if large) PC board - and you're way ahead. (Well, way >ahead if everyone else is still in 1965...) > >>> Doing it in ttl or bit slices would still be big, I've done that. using >>> 2900 parts(ca mid to late '70s) the CPU equivelent was over 100 chips and >>> filled 4 10x8" cards. > >>That sounds about right; I recall building a PDP-11 clone using 2901/2910 parts >>as part of an undergraduate CPU architecture course in the same era and using >>about the same number of parts. > >Of course it's also possible to do it on a single card using SSI and >MSI TTL, maybe with a few bipolar PROM's. Take a look at the 11/04 CPU or >the original Nova, for example. > >I recall - back in the mid-70's - that Radio Shack sold transistor-based >logic module kits (PC boards) that could be strung together to make >things like binary counters, etc. Does anyone else here remember these? >Or, even better, still have the modules around? > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Why not explore this problem from the standpoint of an FPGA? When you finish you'd still have the flexibility of a hand-built device, yet what you learned in the process would potentially be of actual use? Why squander your cash and intellectual resources on creating something the folks in the '70's electronics industry were striving to avoid when you could have the same mental exercise in a productive form that made the design and implementation of your architecture the core of your effort rather than issues which are no longer relevant, like power consumption, packaging, and finding the appropriate materials from which to build your device? Signal routing is the one issue which persists from that era of yesteryear when a CPU lived in multiple racks, but it's handled, at least superficially, by the development software. Sharing flipflop packages or gates between two circuits on a backplane with 50 cards of logic in it is no easy matter. What's more, the propagation delays will slow your circuit down to cycles in multiple microseconds, while correcting the associated routing errors will take multiple days for each one. While it's not perfect, the FPGA approach allows you to have these experiences with a "virtual" closet-sized backplane with similarly "virtual" cards (modules) of logic which you can design hierarchically and based on your needs, not on what the local parts vendor happens to have. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Cheponis <mac(a)Wireless.Com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:35 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> > Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >> > components, no ICs only modern discrete(?) components. How big would the >> > CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > >It seems to me the Right Answer is to approximate the number of transistors >required. How many transistors did an 8080 have? (Do remember, however, >that the transistor count is actually less than you'd need with discrete >transistors, because the on-chip transistors can have multpile emitters or >gates or whatever in the same device.) > >As for how "big" it would be (that is, its size), modern discrete transistors >are available in tiny SOT-23 or even tinier packages. Resistors are >available in 0402 and maybe smaller. Line widths on PC boards can perhaps >be as small as .002 inches, and they can be many layers, a dozen or more. > >So, in order to compute the size, I think you'd need to make two estimates: > >1) The number of transistors per cubic inch (or cm if you like those units) > >2) The number of transistors required. > >This assumes some packaging/connector allowance is taken into account to >estimate the number of transistors per cubic whatever. > >------ > >IMHO, if you're going to build something from transistors, why not build >something that was originally built with transistors? For example, the >IBM 1620, 1130, 1401, etc. Or if you really want to get funky, try something >like transistorizing a tube machine, like ENIAC or JOHNNIAC or Bendix G-15. >-That- could be entertaining... > >-Mike Cheponis >

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:49 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> BTW: I am building an Intel 4004 or possible an 8008 with flip chip modules. >> Will tell you when I start it. > >Those parts were in the 3000-6000 transistor bracket. I'd expect an 8008 >in flip chips would be bigger than a straight-8 (that's larger than an >8S). Why? The 8008 is register rich compared to the PDP-8 series and >for every bit in a register thats a flip chip (8008 is about 45 bits of >registers alone and then there are the FFs in the state logic). This >thing is going to be HUGE. The 4004 would be less ambitious but there are >still a lot of FFs in that part. I am going to impliment the instruction set serially... Hmm.. wonder where I've seen that before? I have run out of transistor/old computers to restore so I rfeally liked the 8/S and am going to do some fun stuff with a few hundred flip chips. john > >Allison >

26 years, 8 months

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Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives

by mranalog＠home.com

I wrote: > Tracks per inch 48 TPI both drives > Tracks per drive TM100-1 40 tracks, TM100-2 80 tracks I usually read my copy of the ClassicCmp Digest between midnight and 1 o'clock (when I receive it). And if I wasn't so busy copying this out of the manual, I might have read what I was writing. :) Bill wrote: > | | > | | > \ / > \ / > | | < BREAK HERE > | | > \ / > - Thats just where they broke! I used one of my wife's sewing needles to pry them out of the sockets. And it's most likely they broke when I removed the chips >from the sockets, but I'm not sure about that. Dave Dameron wrote: > The bad chips were all made by TI. Four of the 5 broken chips are TI 8T26s and the fifth is a TI 74123. --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ====================================================

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I know its off-topic but i figured that since most of the poeple on this >list work or have worked on the really big stuff you'd know better than >most others. > >Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? Well, others have guessed at the 8080 Clone, but I'll step in and point out that if minimal part count is an important feature, then you can get by with a *lot* less. Especially if you go to a bit-serial architecture. (Something that's still mentioned in many computer architecture textbooks, even if it isn't used much anymore!) How big? I'll venture a guess that a 12-bit serial CPU could be done on one largish (i.e. a square foot) PC board, using TO-92's, resistors, capacitors, and diodes. This isn't too far out of line with many bit-serial designs from the late 1960's (for example, many bit-serial desktop calculators used a PC board - or two or three - about this size.) Total cost? Maybe $1500 in large scale production, including testing costs. Of course, you now hook up memory to this CPU. Doing that with discretes would be a chore! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 8 months

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Tek 4014 was Re: tektronix 4006 terminal

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> wrote: > Ethan, > > They're in a surplus place near Orlando. They're covered with dust. They > look like they've been there a LONG time. I have no idea what they want for > them. Give me an idea of what they're worth. As usual, I have no idea. If I saw them locally (within a few hours drive), and priced at $50 each, I'd snap them up in a second. If they were tagged at $100 each, I might get them. $500 each, I'd leave 'em be. I am afraid for what it would cost to ship them to Ohio from central Florida. Several dollars per pound truck freight, no doubt, plus the effort/expense of palletizing. At least both should be able to go on the same pallet. Thanks for the tip, though. Generally speaking, my rescue range is 8 hours drive, but it had better be good to be at the edge. The last road trip I did was to Dayton for a 15Mb 11/750 plus some goodies. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 8 months

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Diablo 31/33 drives

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

Hi Chris. I just picked up a Nova 2 loaded with a Diablo 40 series drive, graphics unit, Kennedy 9800 tape, and a "network" interface. Along with it came 6 large boxes filled with manuals (schematics, interfacing, theory, software manuals, and languages,revision notes,nuclear reactor control software......). Also came was 130 pounds (I repeat 130 pounds) of paper tape software including every possible version of rdos, basic, fortran, algol, test tapes, (other languages)....[many unopened and not installed].... If you are looking for any documents or programs I probably have them and can make the images available to you. I have not powered up the system yet as I have to test everything first (and am too busy on the PDP-8/S finishing touches). john . -----Original Message----- From: Chris Kennedy <chris(a)mainecoon.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 9:33 PM Subject: Diablo 31/33 drives >I'm looking for a diablo 31 or 33 drive (the 31 was the one with >the door, the 33 is the one that you have to rip apart to get >your pack out). I'm also looking for a Decision 3150 controller >for same. > >While I'm wishing for the impossible, I might as well add the >other (current) items on my wish-list: > >EDS mux boards for the Nova bus >An Eclipse S/200 >An Eclipse S/130 >A paper tape reader. Hell, I'd be happy with an ASR 33 at this point. > >And in the only-in-my-dreams category: > >An original ("baby") nova or supernova >An Eclipse S/230 > >Of course, if it's a 16 bit DG machine, something that plugs into >same or something that just looks good sitting next to it I'm >interested. Cash, trades or body parts. > >Thanks, >Chris >-- >Chris Kennedy >chris(a)mainecoon.com chris(a)dtiinc.com >http://www.mainecoon.com http://www.dtiinc.com >

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >> components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >> CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > > One of the vendors of bit-slice components (AMD 2900 or clone, I think) > offered a board that emulated an 8080. In addition to being faster than > an 8080, you could of course modify the microcode to add or change > instructions. IIRC, it looked like the board had about fifty chips. > > If you didn't use a bit-slice, you'd have to use separate ALU, memory, > and shifter chips, and you'd wind up with even more. > > The early microprocessor architectures were designed based on minimal > transistor count for a single-chip implementation. This does not result > in minimal chip count if you implement the equivalent in 7400-series > chips. It is quite possible to design useful processors with a lot fewer > TTL chips. Er, Eric? He said, no ICs only modern discrete components... As Eric says, an 8080 clone or similar would not be good to do with TTL chips or something, but it might work well with discretes. How big? Depends on the routing technology: A few trannies to a PCB, standard modules where possible, do anything complicated on the backplane => as big as a PDB8 (which someone mentioned) - say a 2 foot cube. Something more modern, say a multilayer pcb covered with densely packed surface mount transistors => you might get it onto a board the size of an AT motherboard, or possibly two such boards (allow for plugs on one to go straight into sockets on the other, mount the boards side by side so you can place connectors in arbitrary locations over the board) Something in between is probably more practical - still pin through hole, single or possibly double sided, but with modern, denser PCB (or pen-wired) layouts, and not worrying about using standard modules (unlike DEC, you're not mass-producing) => it would probably be a rack full of Eurocards. (20 * 5 * 10 inches, roughly). Hmm, perhaps a double rack. 20 * 10 * 10. I haven't looked at transistor counts or packing densities so these are only guesses. My opinion (FWIW) is that while this might be a fun project, doing something with a machine that was originally designed this way (PDP8 again) might be more educational. Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474

26 years, 8 months

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Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets. > Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets. > Now I just need to pick-up some replacement 8T26 bus driver/receivers > and then check all of those 2114s on the two 527 Ram boards and I'll > be ready to fire this thing up. :) Doug, I hope you don't mean you need to replace the chips with broken pins. This happened to a ROM in my oldest PET when I was trying to reseat it (poor contacts in sockets - I eventually replaced them with decent sockets). I stuck a thin piece of metal - a staple, as I recall - into the socket where the pin was supposed to go, and soldered it to the stub of the pin. Worked a treat! Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474

26 years, 8 months

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Tek 4014 was Re: tektronix 4006 terminal

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> wrote: > Speaking of Tektronix stuff, I spotted two Tektronix 4014s in a surplus > place today. Is anyone interested in them? Yes. Where are they? -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 8 months

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Power supply pinout for HP Windows Client???

by af-list＠wfi-inc.com

I got one of these today, a 425sx, sans powersupply. The sticker on the bootom is scratched and I can't read the power requirements, though it looks like it might read 20V....something. It's got a 4-pin jack on the side for power, if that helps... Aaron

26 years, 9 months

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