- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

Differences Between CompacTape I, II, III

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> I also believe the DLT is helical scan versus CompacTape's linear scan <> technology. No they are all linear. Helical scan is used for some 8mm and most 4mm. What seperates DLT (and the TK50/70 forrunners) is the tape is wider and high bit packing. <It's still linear. That's what the "L" in DLT stands for. For example <ECMA Standard 286 defines DLT 6 as having 208 linear tracks. Correct. <This is alleged to allow for much better tape robustness, since it doesn't <get beaten to death with every pass. This is why Seagate, HP, and IBM <have joined forces to develop a new LTO (Linear Tape Open) standard: Having used it and am using it for backup it's reputation for reliability is real. It's the backup of choice for a lot of stuff. Allison

26 years, 8 months

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gauging interest in VAX 6000-530

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

Think "refrigerator", think "family of four." Depends a bit on the peripherals as well. Check out http://www.digital.com/timeline/1988-2.htm (and check out the vax-vixen, this was clearly before DEC started selling to women :-) --Chuck At 11:30 PM 10/23/99 -0500, you wrote: >I don't know much about Vaxen, or DEC anything for that matter, but I'd >like to learn. How big is it? How old is it? How's the loading >facilities? What sort of power is required?

26 years, 8 months

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PDP-11 Freeware CD progress!

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

Hi Folks, Over a week ago here I announced the availability of the RT-11 Freeware CD, and many folks have ordered copies through Amazon.com. I'm guessing (hoping) that all US folks who had ordered early on have received their copies by now. With a little bit of luck, international airmail may have come through for the folks outside the US too. (Though Kevin tells me that his still hasn't arrived in Vancouver, and that has me a bit worried. Some folks in the Seattle area got theirs on Tuesday - and Vancouver just isn't all that much further away, at least if you ignore that border! I wonder if the Customs Canada folks are puzzling over the concept of RT-11 and that's what is slowing things down...) The RSX-11 Freeware CD's are coming along. Present plans are for there to be 4 (yes, *four*) CD's in the set. Two will contain ODS-1 filesystems, and will be directly readable on an -11 with attached CD-ROM drive, and two will contain ISO9660 filesystems, and be convenient for browsing or study on a PC or workstation. I was rather lucky with the RT-11 CD that I could squeeze both an ISO9660 volume and 7 RT-11 partitions on the same disc. There's just *way too much* RSX-11 stuff to do this for the RSX-11 collection, and besides there's no easy way to put both ISO9660 and ODS-1 filesystems on the same disc. For those anxious folks who want to see the RSX CD labels, they can point their browser at http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/freeware.html If any wants to correct the grammar on the labels, specifically the section that attempts to explain where you should use the ODS-1 CD's and where you should use the ISO9660 CD's, they're welcome to whack away! Current plans are for me to sell all 4 RSX CD's in a set for $40.00. I did once have thoughts of making one set of two for ISO9660 users and a different set of two for ODS-1 users, but I decided that I'd just confuse potential users too much about which set they really needed and as a result the CD's wouldn't get into the hands of potential users. Of course, by packaging all four at once I have to charge a bit more money for the larger set, and maybe this keeps the CD's out of the hands of some potential users too. If anyone has any feelings/thoughts on this issue, I'd be glad to hear them! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 8 months

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a bit offtopic

by musicman38＠mindspring.com

>I just bought a Philips Odyssey 2001, i know it`s a bit offtopic >but does anyone know how old it is ?. The first thing I did was >to open it up to look for somekind of infomation to it`s age >but I did`t find any dates at all. I have found a bit infomation >about a Odyssey 100 & 200, but nothing about a 2001. > >Regards Jacob Dahl Pind Best I can tell this machine was manufactured in 1978, and is not very common unlike the 2000, 200 and 500 series pong games by Magnavox.. Its also closely related to the Phillips European version called the G7000.. Hope this helps.. Phil...

26 years, 8 months

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Differences Between CompacTape I, II, III

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Actually shouldn't the list read more like: <> <> TK50 CompacTape 95MB 350 o <> TK70 CompacTape II 270MB 350 o <> TK?? CompacTape III (DLT) 20GB/40GB 1540 o <> TK87 CompacTape IV (DLT) 35GB/70GB 1850 o < <Jerome Fine replies: < <Special thanks to Chuck McManis and Zane Healy for the <URL and the information. < <Based on the data within the above tables (and at the URL), <there seems no doubt that DEC practised their usual <antics back in the 1980s when they practised their standard <marketing policy of adding "nothing". From my experience A foolish remark. The change and added "nothing" as you called it was the TK50 media was formatted (init'ed) and verified at the higher bit density. It was also marked differently so these with TK70 and TK50s in their sites would know them apart (and DEC would in their stockrooms too). TK 50 had been around for a few years before TK70 and was not enjoying a good rep as the early tk50 drives where to say the least unreliable. They are fixed and the TK70 was really the DLT standard setter for reliability in field use. Marketing really didn't want the two confused. The TKs be came part of Quantum in the big sell off and quantum really wanted divorce them selves from the TK50 or any TKmumble plus moving the performance ahead. So there is a lot of "nothing" between the lines. Allison

26 years, 8 months

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My Biggest eBay gripe..

by Innfogra＠aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/99 12:50:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mikeford(a)socal.rr.com writes: > > I and many others have given the issue a LOT of thought, and basically the > idea of a "live" finish is EXTREMELY popular among both buyers and sellers. > Implementing it is not a small or simple problem, especially within the > browser environment which expects the user to ask for updates. > One of the other sites I sell on is the LabX auction. This is a 'Live Finish' auction where the time is extended in two minute increments until there are no more bids. I think it has a real time function but I have never used it. I have only sold. never bought. I really like their format for an auction. It does keep the feeling of the oral auction. LabX makes their income off of much higher listing fees than ebay. They do not charge the transaction fee. This seems to be stable software. I have been using them for a couple of years. I believe they will sell their software. I recommend LabX if you have to buy or sell lab equipment. Many pieces of lab equipment use classic computers within, to keep this on topic. http://www.labx.com I do think having a 'live finish' raises the prices paid. Paxton

26 years, 8 months

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EBaying; howling after an auction

by Innfogra＠aol.com

In a message dated 10/17/99 5:54:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, thompson(a)mail.athenet.net writes: > hat is one aspect of Ebay that I don't understand -- that some sellers > will put multiple identical items up at the same time potentially keeping > their bid prices down by preventing a war between two anxious prospective > buyers over one item. It seems to make sense to put a large number of > different items out at once instead. >

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, October 23, 1999 4:51 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home >> >Most shops cost a >> >fortune to drill and etch a 10x8 card with a quantity of 2. Wire wrap for >> >this design is out of the question. >> > >> >> >> Sounds like you folks have been quoted a lot higher than I am paying for >> prototype PCBs (if you had them done in a shop). Could be your the lack of > >Well, you seemed to be implying you got them done for $1 or something >(you claimed no set-up charges). I've never heard of pricing like that >for one-offs... Of course not.. on a small board like that... usually a $100 for 10 or so. I have never paid a set up fee. Again, most shops will. I got lucky. This shop and I have done quite a bit of business and I have helped him get some solder fountain equipment for his tests... I get an excellent rate... and it makes my prototypes boards bug free. I like that! > >> ><I've found that the typical 'cheap' hobbyist's setup (disk of FeCl(3), >> >> Ferric Chloride is awful. If I *have* to do a quick small one-off board I >> use very hot Ammonium Persulfate. > >I am reliably informed that the persulphate etchants break down if >overheated. You might want to watch this (<50C?) > > >> ><things like getting track widths right (!), which really messed up some of >> ><the striplines. We even had boards come back with the layers in the wrong >> ><order. We _very_ quickly learnt to (a) check everything and (b) do the >> ><prototype ourselves if at all possible, to ensure the basic design was >> ><sound...] >> >> >> I know, on critical strip line work I sit down with the guy and we double >> check the widths on the film. > >By which point you might as well have done the darn thing yourself... > I rarely do a board JUST for prototype/experimental reasons. Most of my boards end up in production so it's a lot easier to iron out the bugs in the prototype stage for production. I take it you do mostly one-off experimental stuff. >I learnt years ago that if you have to check everything that somebody >else (PCB house, etc) is doing at every stage, then quite simply it's a >lot faster and less hassle to do it yourself.. > >> >> That's my point exactly. I just don't have the time anymore to screw around >> with bad etches... even good etches can be bad in one small place causing > >A lot of minor faults can be patched over for prototypes... > Been there, done that. >> all kinds of grief. I've had boards that we did in house that had >> *microscopic* traces either shorting two pins or jumping two traces >> together. I had one short so fine once that I could not see it by viewing >> the board through light... I found it with a meter! > >I've had boards come back from a PCB house with a note saying that >they've checked them against my netlist. And I've _still_ had internal >shorts (which _weren't_ in the netlist). > >I got to the point of checking for real nasties (power-ground shorts, >etc) with a meter, and then populating them, checking as I go. Quite >simply, if you don't know what effect a short or open will have on your >design then you don't really understand the design in the first place. >But as ever, you check things a little at a time. > >> >> And don't even get me started on those pre-sensitized boards... I've had >> many with hair line cracks in the coating which causes LOADS of grief after >> the board is done and sometimes when the board is bent. :-( > >Hmm... Again, _for prototypes_ you should know just what effect such a >crack would have. And then you can easily fix it (the signal reflection >at a small repair like this will cause no problems at all!). > The idea of prototype to me is have the "ideal" conditions. Boards with these problems are easy to find BUT many intermittant problems can come from them. Ie: move the board and it craps out. >Almost every board I have been involved with has been an experimental >design/prototype. So cut-n-jumper mods are occasionally necessary anyway. >Fixing PCB problems (which are _NOT_ common in my experience on homebrew >boards) is no great hassle. > > Okay that's different. I design products, final stuff. I design a board, have about 10 prototypes knocked out.. sometimes some minor changes are made, then it goes to production. My own prior company (outside my current employer) did lots of this work so after a few prototypes were assembled I would send the job to Taiwan with a schedule. I try to wirewrap when possible on experimental type stuff but nothing beats quick PCBs. Again, depends on your pocket $$, application, turn around time, and if it's a hobby or serious $$. >-tony >

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, October 23, 1999 12:19 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home ><> Making PCBs at home is a ridiculous waste of time. I have a vacuum lightb > >No it's not. Right now I'm doing a design that requires two sided and >design rules down to 10mils. Most of my designs are 10mil clearance. My PCB maker *likes* 10mil clearance. > There are three flat packs <64 pins and >and daughter cards for more. The worst part was drilling the 2000 holes >and a 3axis NC machine (home grown is not that hard). Yuck. >Most shops cost a >fortune to drill and etch a 10x8 card with a quantity of 2. Wire wrap for >this design is out of the question. > Sounds like you folks have been quoted a lot higher than I am paying for prototype PCBs (if you had them done in a shop). Could be your the lack of volume production in the past...I guess it depends what your time is worth and the type of project. I'll still knock out quick single boards for patches or small circuits. I do a lot of RF and high speed (50Mhz) design. ><I've found that the typical 'cheap' hobbyist's setup (disk of FeCl(3), Ferric Chloride is awful. If I *have* to do a quick small one-off board I use very hot Ammonium Persulfate. ><modelmaker's drill, rub-down transfers or a pen as the resist) is a total ><waste of time and energy. But the above stuff, which is easily possible ><to consider for serious home use (remember the sort of tools and test ><gear that I tend to own...) is certainly useable. > >I've done boards that way too. Even hand drawn simple RF layouts on the >board with a SHARPIE pen (solvent based marker pens) for one ups. > I haven't tried that. I use Protel for everything. ><After a bit of practice, we could easily make striplines for ECL and/or ><RF stuff, SMD boards (no problem at all with SOICs, PQFPs, PLCCs, etc), ><and of course conventional pin-through hole. The ECL stuff clocked at ><200-300 MHz as well. > >The real trick is fine line stuff. > ><[As an aside, we found some PCB companies were remarkable _bad_ about ><things like getting track widths right (!), which really messed up some of ><the striplines. We even had boards come back with the layers in the wrong ><order. We _very_ quickly learnt to (a) check everything and (b) do the ><prototype ourselves if at all possible, to ensure the basic design was ><sound...] I know, on critical strip line work I sit down with the guy and we double check the widths on the film. > >There are plenty of things that can really mess up an otherwise good design >and bad etchs are hell to trace in when bring up for the first time. > That's my point exactly. I just don't have the time anymore to screw around with bad etches... even good etches can be bad in one small place causing all kinds of grief. I've had boards that we did in house that had *microscopic* traces either shorting two pins or jumping two traces together. I had one short so fine once that I could not see it by viewing the board through light... I found it with a meter! And don't even get me started on those pre-sensitized boards... I've had many with hair line cracks in the coating which causes LOADS of grief after the board is done and sometimes when the board is bent. :-( john >Allison >

26 years, 8 months

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Calculator Comparisons

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>>If you don't mind direct drive, there are TTL BCD-to-10 decoder chips >>intended specifically for driving Nixie tubes. I just looked in my >>newer databook at the 7445 and 74145, and they don't *say* "can directly >>drive Nixies", but they do have high-voltage open-collector outputs. >These "HV" decoders have 30 and 15 volt output devices. The one for neon >lamps or Nixies was the 7441. Thanks for refreshing my memory! Unfortunately NatSemi/Fairchild no longer list the 7441 in their TTL lineup, but I'm sure a dedicated hobbyist could find the parts at Halted Specialties or similar place. Looking in the Fairchild books, the 7442 is still around as a DIP, and combined with a transistor array it'd do a fine job as a Nixie driver. The 74154, I see, is available as a SOIC for surface-mount. Hmm - now all we need is a Hexadecimal Nixie! Did such a thing ever exist? It'd be so cool to have fully formed A-F characters... though of course there would be religious wars over upper vs lower case :-). Tim.

26 years, 8 months

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Calculator Comparisons

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Wow! Thanks for the link. I happen to have a nixie tube strip that looks >just like the one in the AL-1000. The one I have has 12 CD71 tubes (plus >the minus bulb). On the bottom, there are characters in English and Katakana. >Some of the part numbers are "IS-1", "Model 121" and "I2D-E2(B)". The >Katakana appear to be representative of digits. > >I've always wanted to do something with this (like so much of my really good >stuff, I've had it since I was a kid). I've just noticed that 12 digits >is enough to make an ISO Date compatible clock/calendar (i.e., 199910220116). >Is there a good reference around about how to drive a multiplexed neon array >going from TTL to 90VAC? Can you multiplex a Nixie display in the same way as a LED display? I've never seen it done, but that certainly doesn't mean it isn't possible. If you don't mind direct drive, there are TTL BCD-to-10 decoder chips intended specifically for driving Nixie tubes. I just looked in my newer databook at the 7445 and 74145, and they don't *say* "can directly drive Nixies", but they do have high-voltage open-collector outputs. They look more like open-collector lamp drivers than Nixie drivers to my eye this morning. I swear there were TTL chips which could directly drive (err, well, sink) Nixie displays, but they aren't specifically called out in the newer databooks. I've gotta find the box that has Don Lancasters _TTL Cookbook_, I know there's an example in there. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 8 months

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Calculator Comparisons

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Rick Bensene <rickb(a)bensene.com> wrote: > > Casio AL1000 (discrete transistor, programmable, not scientific) > > Casio AL2000 (ICs, much the same functionality as the AL1000) > > ???? (All-in-one-chip equivalent) > > To check these out, see: > http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators/commal-1000.html > This is a Commodore AL-1000. It's a Commodore-badged OEM version identical > to the Casio AL-1000. Wow! Thanks for the link. I happen to have a nixie tube strip that looks just like the one in the AL-1000. The one I have has 12 CD71 tubes (plus the minus bulb). On the bottom, there are characters in English and Katakana. Some of the part numbers are "IS-1", "Model 121" and "I2D-E2(B)". The Katakana appear to be representative of digits. I've always wanted to do something with this (like so much of my really good stuff, I've had it since I was a kid). I've just noticed that 12 digits is enough to make an ISO Date compatible clock/calendar (i.e., 199910220116). Is there a good reference around about how to drive a multiplexed neon array going from TTL to 90VAC? -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> IIRC, the 8080 was about 4000 MOSFET transistors. If you implemented it > with individual FETs, and packed it densely, I think you could fit it in > a 10.5" high rack space easily, and a 5.25" high rack space with difficulty. > Of course, you'll need plenty of forced air cooling. From a serviceability > point of view, building it less densely is clearly better. True. > If you implemented it with bipolar transistors configured as saturating > logic, it would require perhaps twice as many transistors and a lot more > resistors for TTL logic, or 50% more transistors, a lot of diodes, and a > lot of resistors for DTL logic. Also true. A lot of the power estimates have been based on the assumption that we have bipolar transistors. What about discrete mosfets? We could do NMOS or even CMOS designs directly that way... I liked Hans's suggestion (which I have now deleted, alas) of a museum exhibit with three identical computers, but with processor as single chip, board of gates, and rack of trannies for comparison. It does provide a service that you couldn't get another way... ... or could you? Didn't PDP8 come in all three versions? I've often wondered if you could build a transistorised computer without pcbs at all. You know, trannies on tag board, little plugs bolted onto the ends (or on flying leads) and so on... I was assuming ECL for two reasons - if you use early transistors (Ge), ECL would probably be the only way to go at all fast; and ECL gives the advantage of easy differential line drivers and receivers for long interconnects. Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474

26 years, 8 months

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pdp8/f

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 10:51 PM Subject: Re: pdp8/f >Having already inspected and turned down this junker be it known that the >system doesn't work. I wasn't able to isolate the problem to the front >panel or the CPU but the boards didn't work. The 8/E chassis that went for >around $400 on Ebay was a better deal. Consider Keyways for PDP-8 boards as >well. I told Easy that the 8/f wasn't worth more than two or three hundred >tops. That 8/e chasis went for $1300 this morning! > >--Chuck > >At 09:13 PM 10/12/99 -0500, you wrote: >>OK, the PDP8/f is in California. As i mentioned before they want $600 >>for it. This is what it contains: >> >> > 1 M8330 >> > 1 M8310 >> > 1 M8300 >> > 1 M837 >> > 1 M848 >> > 5 M1709 >> > 2 M8655 (NOT THE TWO LISTED BELOW) >> > 1 M849 >> > 1 M8320 >> > AND 1 DATARAM DR118 CORE MEMORY >> >>I'm still dealing with them over the PDP8 boards I want to buy, which is >>why i'm hesitant to mention the company at the moment. >> >>-Lawrence LeMay > >

26 years, 8 months

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Calculator Comparisons

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I swear there were TTL chips which could directly drive (err, well, sink) <Nixie displays, but they aren't specifically called out in the newer Try 7441 binary to decimal nixi driver. And the V++ should be 120-130V with a diode clamp at 90V for std nixis. The lower voltage tube that work at 90-100V you can skip the clamp. I stilll keep a pot load of them, I have test gear (some 25+ years old) that use nixi tubes, such as my Yasu 355 frequency counter. Muxing nixies... can do it but the rules (voltages and rates) are horrid. First of the formed segment types don't mux well at all they are slow. The dot matrix tubes (burroughs self scan) were the most common muxed "neon glow" displays. Allison

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Making PCBs at home is a rediculous waste of time. I have a vacuum lightb No it's not. Right now I'm doing a design that requires two sided and design rules down to 10mils. There are three flat packs <64 pins and and daughter cards for more. The worst part was drilling the 2000 holes and a 3axis NC machine (home grown is not that hard). Most shops cost a fortune to drill and etch a 10x8 card with a quantity of 2. Wire wrap for this design is out of the question. <I've found that the typical 'cheap' hobbyist's setup (disk of FeCl(3), <modelmaker's drill, rub-down transfers or a pen as the resist) is a total <waste of time and energy. But the above stuff, which is easily possible <to consider for serious home use (remember the sort of tools and test <gear that I tend to own...) is certainly useable. I've done boards that way too. Even hand drawn simple RF layouts on the board with a SHARPIE pen (solvent based marker pens) for one ups. <After a bit of practice, we could easily make striplines for ECL and/or <RF stuff, SMD boards (no problem at all with SOICs, PQFPs, PLCCs, etc), <and of course conventional pin-through hole. The ECL stuff clocked at <200-300 MHz as well. The real trick is fine line stuff. <[As an aside, we found some PCB companies were remarkable _bad_ about <things like getting track widths right (!), which really messed up some of <the striplines. We even had boards come back with the layers in the wrong <order. We _very_ quickly learnt to (a) check everything and (b) do the <prototype ourselves if at all possible, to ensure the basic design was <sound...] There are plenty of things that can really mess up an otherwise good design and bad etchs are hell to trace in when bring up for the first time. Allison

26 years, 8 months

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Heathkit Analog Computer (1956)

by foxvideo＠wincom.net

While going through some stuff I ran across a specifications folder for this kit. It has circuit diagrams for the individual units and the front panel. Also a couple of articles on how it works. If anyone needs this info I will scan it and forward it. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo(a)wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo

26 years, 8 months

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opening a Rl01 drive

by lemay＠cs.umn.edu

Ok, how do you open the top of a RL01 drive? someone mentioned removing that little plate on the right side, but when I do that i dont see anything resembling an unlocking mechanism. The latch on top appears to be locked somehow, since i cant seem to move it. -Lawrence LeMay

26 years, 8 months

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opening a Rl01 drive

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

I had a bigger problem... A drive lid that always opened! One day (you know where I am going...) I OPENED the lid and tried to remove a pack while it was spinning... Not happy.. Lost that RSTS/E pack. I really like running RK05s.. john -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 8:37 PM Subject: Re: opening a Rl01 drive >>Thanks, now I know how it works ;) > >Yeah, well, leave it to me to overlook the actual question and make >it much harder than it really is :-). > >I have come across *several* RL01/2 drives through the years where the >latch mechanism didn't work properly because someone had tried to >pry the lid open (usually by wedging something in the crack in the >front.) This isn't kind to the little latch mechanism, and my worst-case >fear is that it's damaged beyond recognition. > >Tim. >

26 years, 8 months

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opening a Rl01 drive

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Thanks, now I know how it works ;) Yeah, well, leave it to me to overlook the actual question and make it much harder than it really is :-). I have come across *several* RL01/2 drives through the years where the latch mechanism didn't work properly because someone had tried to pry the lid open (usually by wedging something in the crack in the front.) This isn't kind to the little latch mechanism, and my worst-case fear is that it's damaged beyond recognition. Tim.

26 years, 8 months

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opening a Rl01 drive

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>>> I choose to power it up, and I was able to open the top door. However, >>> the FAULT light stays on, i cant lock the cover down anymore, and >>> I can remove the disk pack (just lift the handle?). I'm chosing to leave >>> the RL01 powered up for a little while, in case the electronics havent >>> been powered on for a while, but I doubt that wil fix this problem. >>I meant to say i CANT remove the disk pack. >*Oh*. Double-Oh: now I realize where you're at. You see the pack, you lift the handle, but it doesn't come out. Well, this one's easy: Start with the handle in the *down* position, against the pack. You see the little semi-circular notch on the right-hand side of the middle of the handle? Put your right thumb there. It's a little slide mechanism, you push it to the left. Now, keeping the slide slid to the left, you lift the handle. It should "feel" different than before you slid the slide, and you'll hear a ker-klunk as a lever mechanism disengages the magnetic hold-down on the pack. Lift, and put the pack in its lid!. Do the same to remove the lid from a pack. Occasionally, you'll run across packs where the little slide mechanism that operates the lever action is damaged, and there you've just got to pull hard to get the pack out! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 8 months

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opening a Rl01 drive

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> I choose to power it up, and I was able to open the top door. However, >> the FAULT light stays on, i cant lock the cover down anymore, and >> I can remove the disk pack (just lift the handle?). I'm chosing to leave >> the RL01 powered up for a little while, in case the electronics havent >> been powered on for a while, but I doubt that wil fix this problem. >I meant to say i CANT remove the disk pack. *Oh*. Do you hear a "click" roughly 20 seconds after applying power to the drive? That's the lid latch solenoid. The "click" means that you can open it now. If you hear the "click" but still can't operate the open-cover latch, this is likely because the long piece of nylon line that connects the button to the latch is out of whack. (Or just plain broken!) Can you slide the button back and forth? If you feel *no* resistance, then the nylon line is probably broken. If you still can't move the sliding button at all, then the latch mechanism is screwed up. Some previous fellow may have tried too enthusiastically to move the slide when he shouldn't have, and bent or notched something out of whack. It's also possible for the latch mechanism itself, the other end of the nylon string, is broken/bent. If you don't hear the click, there may be a power supply or logic board problem. In *any* event, if you loosen the four screws holding the plastic panel on top at the rear of the drive, you can lift up the *entire* top cover quite handily and see what's going on. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 8 months

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opening a Rl01 drive

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

I think you did not slide the thumb release on the handle before you lifted the handle to remove the pack. Dan -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 8:13 PM Subject: Re: opening a Rl01 drive >>> I choose to power it up, and I was able to open the top door. However, >>> the FAULT light stays on, i cant lock the cover down anymore, and >>> I can remove the disk pack (just lift the handle?). I'm chosing to leave >>> the RL01 powered up for a little while, in case the electronics havent >>> been powered on for a while, but I doubt that wil fix this problem. > >>I meant to say i CANT remove the disk pack. > >*Oh*. Do you hear a "click" roughly 20 seconds after applying power >to the drive? That's the lid latch solenoid. The "click" means that >you can open it now. > >If you hear the "click" but still can't operate the open-cover latch, >this is likely because the long piece of nylon line that connects the >button to the latch is out of whack. (Or just plain broken!) >Can you slide the button back and forth? If you feel *no* resistance, >then the nylon line is probably broken. If you still can't move the sliding >button at all, then the latch mechanism is screwed up. Some previous >fellow may have tried too enthusiastically to move the slide when he >shouldn't have, and bent or notched something out of whack. It's also >possible for the latch mechanism itself, the other end of the nylon string, >is broken/bent. > >If you don't hear the click, there may be a power supply or logic >board problem. > >In *any* event, if you loosen the four screws holding the plastic >panel on top at the rear of the drive, you can lift up the *entire* >top cover quite handily and see what's going on. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 8 months

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opening a Rl01 drive

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I choose to power it up, and I was able to open the top door. However, >the FAULT light stays on, i cant lock the cover down anymore, and >I can remove the disk pack (just lift the handle?). I'm chosing to leave >the RL01 powered up for a little while, in case the electronics havent >been powered on for a while, but I doubt that wil fix this problem. > >Note, the drive isnt conected to any computer at this time, its just >powered up. Yep - if the drive isn't getting the clock signal from the bus interface module in the computer (this is used to synchronize the spin rate, among other things), it'll light up its fault light and refuse to do anything. At least you know that the "fault" light works! When one of the other bulbs goes bad, the "fault" light is usually the first one cannibalized because it's so rarely on. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 8 months

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More on "discrete" CPUs

by edick＠idcomm.com

IIRC, since this a.m. when I was reading some of thei XILINX literature, the 'C' in CLB is for CONFIGURABLE though it is complex. It's a RAM lookup table with some gating and a register or two, depending on the type, and has MUCH more configurability, due to the very general functional nature of the RAM lookup table, than most of what you could have made up in a modular fashion using elementary devices like bipolar transistors or mosfets. Nevertheless, getting software to manage the interconnections for you might not be so difficult. I, for example, would make up a symbol in OrCAD for the logic block and then interconnect them in a schematic. Afterward, I would run a netlist in "wirelist" format, which would then describe, net by net, what the specified interconnections are. If I were to want a picture of the interconnection, I'd netlist the thing for the PCB router and have it route them, perhaps optimizing my physical arrangement in the process. If you extend the FPGA logic plock concept a little bit, you can look at its CLB as a 2-bit registered full-adder, in some cases with fast carry logic. It could also be looked upon as a 2-bit registered ALU. Plugging in an ALU for every gate in a design might be inefficient as can be, but by taking advantage of the economy of scale, it could well be realistic in sufficient quantity. That's certainly what XILINX and others have found. Dick From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)freegate.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 1:27 PM Subject: More on "discrete" CPUs >Having read through the discussion, I sat down and sketched out some "flip >chip" type designs. Units of logic that could be wired together to create >the CPU. When I did this I was striving for a fairly universal design so, >as John put it, we could have a whole bunch made and get the benefit of >volume manufacturing. > >Well, not too suprisingly (ask the right question, get the same answer) I >was about halfway through my sketched out design when I realized I was >duplicating something I had seen in a databook, a Xilinx databook to be >precise. > >The flip chips are the "CLB"s (Complex Logic Blocks) of your standard gate >array design. The backplane is the interconnects. > >The problem is reduced to the complexity of implementing the FPGA >architecture and then having the tools send out wrap lists rather than >routing configs :-) > >--Chuck >

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > I liked Hans's suggestion (which I have now deleted, alas) of a museum > > exhibit with three identical computers... > > ... or could you? Didn't PDP8 come in all three versions? > > Yes it did, but there were _slight_ differences in the instruction set > IIRC (rather like the differences in the PDP11 instruction set between > similar-ish models). Differences, yes, but it should be possible to write some trivial code that runs identically on all three models, presuming the TTY implementation on the DECMate doesn't really hose things up that badly. > But having a straight-8, a PDP8/e and a DECmate all running side by side > would be an interesting exhibit. Pity I can't do it... It's one of my goals when I complete the musuem. I have a DECMate and some PDP-8/L's out at my new location, but I haven't moved the Straight-8's yet (Neither have I powered them on since I got them... reconditioning the power supply is another project on the To-Do list). At least now I have a module map, many thanks to Doug Jones. First step is the 12Kw -8/L. I had everything together last weekend *except* a key. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 8 months

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outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Please see embedded comments below. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 12:44 PM Subject: Re: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? >> >> What I'm really after is small RAMs with separate ins and outs, and the >> current generation stuff doesn't seem to address that requirement. I guess >> I'll have to use a CPLD or FPGA with RAM inside. > >I never found separate data in and out pins to be particularly useful >(well, not unless the chip was dual-ported...). Can't you use buffers to >link a conventional RAM with bidirectional data pins to your design? > >Hitachi made some reasonably fast (15ns, and probably faster) SRAMs until >quite recently. I used the 64K*4 ones in a CCD readout system (don't >ask...), and they worked fine. Not cheap, though. > RAMs with separate D and Q pins are inherently faster, in that you don't have the delay of the output buffers to wait out. Since I want FAST here, that's important. What's more, the output buffers then don't have to drive the input capacitance. That saves more delay. > >Of course having a RAM that's too large is not a major problem (other >than cost). You can always tie the address pins low (or whatever). I've >seen this done on commercial boards, presumably either because small RAMs >weren't available, or to simplify the inventory of parts needed. > That's true unless convenient packaging is an issue, which it could be here. I'll probably have to use an FPGA and use some of its memory capacity as RAM. > >-tony >

26 years, 8 months

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(no subject)

by shoaibi＠paknet3.ptc.pk

WEC 4TH FLOOR S-A/2 CUTHCI MEMON SOCIETY BAHADURBAD , KARACHI PAKISTAN DEAR SIR . OUR COMPANY IS DEALING IN MANY ITEMS , AND ONE OF OUR ITEMS ARE GIFT AND CROCKERY . WE IMPORT THESE ITEMS IN PAKISTAN , USA , & U.K PLS SEND US BOOKLET AND DETAIL WITH THE PRICES . AWAITING FOR YOUR SOONEST REPLY BY MAIL AT THE ABOVE ADDRESS. THANKING YOU.

26 years, 8 months

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Eniac on a single chip

by philclayton＠mindspring.com

Here is an interesting web site I just came across.. Seems the Moore school of engineering students for the 50th anniversary of ENIAC integrated the whole ENIAC computer on one single chip.. Pretty interesting information on ENIAC.. http://www.ee.upenn.edu/~jan/eniacproj.html Phil..

26 years, 8 months

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HELP: Guy needs OS for PDP 11/63 (RSX)

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Can someone help this guy out? Reply-to: skarabe1(a)tampabay.rr.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 05:34:47 +0000 From: Scott <skarabe1(a)tampabay.rr.com> To: vcf(a)vintage.org Subject: ???? I'm looking for an OS for a DEC model PDP 11/53 or Later. It would be on 5in floppy ,it is called RSX and I think is labeled DEC RX50 or RX30. I know this is a longshot but I'm desperate. Thanks for your time. Scott Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org

26 years, 8 months

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Hello

by philclayton＠mindspring.com

-----Original Message----- From: Mike Szewczyk <SzewczykM(a)hcgi.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 3:26 PM Subject: Hello >This is sort of a test, and a re-hello. I used to subscribe to this list >about a year ago. Hi. I've got more stuff. I concentrate mostly on old >8-bit computer systems. I recall some guys liking old mainframes. I don't >have that kind of space and that's not my background. Anyway. Hi! > > >Mike Szewczyk Hi Mike, Welcome back to the list. I also collect older 8-bit micro's, mostly pre DOS machines. I also don't have any experiance in the mainframe computers, with the exception of my old ENIAC tube computer in my garage. (Grin)! Would be interested in seeing your list of machines. email is philclayton(a)mindspring.com I have about 25 home computers, and another 25 or so business based microcomputers in my collection.. CP/M based computers are my favorites.. Phil..

26 years, 8 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by pbboy＠mindspring.com

I know its off-topic but i figured that since most of the poeple on this list work or have worked on the really big stuff you'd know better than most others. Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? pbboy

26 years, 8 months

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Hello

by SzewczykM＠hcgi.com

This is sort of a test, and a re-hello. I used to subscribe to this list about a year ago. Hi. I've got more stuff. I concentrate mostly on old 8-bit computer systems. I recall some guys liking old mainframes. I don't have that kind of space and that's not my background. Anyway. Hi! Mike Szewczyk Technical Operations Manager Hartford Computer Group 847-934-4461 X4323 847-996-8278 Pager 847-934-0157 Fax

26 years, 8 months

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Pascal & FPP

by lemay＠cs.umn.edu

I was wondering if anyone uses the Pascal compiler on the PDP-8, or if anyone actively writes code that uses the Floating Point hardware? One of these days I really need to scan a bunch of documentation in on those two topics... Any suggestion for a good way to do that, possibly with a pointer to some useful software on the web that I can download... -Lawrence LeMay

26 years, 8 months

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UK PDP11/73's rescue / help

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

I have a line on at least a couple if not more PDP11/73's in the UK. They should have at least the following BA23, M8190,1 or 2 meg memory, TK50, M7546, M7555, RD53 or RD54. There are a few other boards in them I am VERY interested in that I am prepared to buy the systems just for those other boards. If there is anyone in the London area please contact me off list. ( or willing to make a trip to London area ) At least the above mentioned items will be yours for your trouble. The systems have RSX11M+ loaded I don't know yet if any have DECnet at this time. They will be scrapped if I don't buy them. If I buy them I will not pay to have the entire systems shipped to the states so I am offering them to the list members as basic systems. (I want the VSV21's and other goodies.:) Please include your phone # and when is a good time to call so I can call to discuss details. Please give me your time - I am very used to figuring the 5 hour difference. Thanks Dan

26 years, 8 months

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DesqView/X v2.0 Disk needed....

by musicman38＠mindspring.com

Dan, I pretty sure I have in a large box of software a fresh copy of DesqView.. If you still need this let me know, and I will dig the stuff out to see.. Phil... >I have an old Toshiba T3200SXC portable. It's the only DOS based >machine I have left, and the only one, therefore, that will run >my prom-burner software (Don't ask...) and some essential DOS >based utilities. I had it hooked to my network and did things >such as burn "BIOS" EPROMs for my VS3100's. The networking depended >on some of the capabilities of DESQVIEW/X. > >As I said, I'm desparate, and again apologize for the (possibly) OT >stuff. If you have v2 of DV/X around somewhere, or know where I can >get that file, let me know. If you've got a full copy of DV/X you're >willing to sell, and the disks are still readable (:-)), let me >know that, too. > >Thanks! > >Dann Lunsford

26 years, 8 months

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PDP 11/23 and 11/05

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Hi All, Just got back from another scrounging trip. I picked up a PDP 11/05. Can anyone give me a URL to a FAQ on these or tell me more about them and where I can look up the card numbers? I know next to nothing about PDPs but this one headed for the metal recyclers so I grabbed it. While I was there I found a MEI wire bonder. This is a machine that automaticly attachs the wire leads to the wafers in ICs. This one has been sitting out in the weather and is ruined for it's intended use. It does have a PDP 11/23 in it though. I'm wondering about picking it for the computer and misc parts. Are the 11/23s worth anything? There's some other very interesting stuff in the machine like a video camera and a video recognition system but I doubt it would be possible to transplant that into something else without a good set of technical info. Comments? Joe

26 years, 8 months

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Heathkit 3400A information needed

by pbboy＠mindspring.com

As the subject indicates, I'm in need of information on the 3400A, specifically the Illustration Booklet with Schematic fold-out that is referred to in the manual. Also, there was a 3400A up for sale on ebay a while back, including a peripheral expansion system. I've already done an exhaustive search on ebay but came up with nothing, ebay only keeps record of auctions within the past 2 months. Does anyone have any information about this expansion system? I'd like to try to build one. pbboy

26 years, 8 months

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DECUS Paper Tapes

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

I am just starting to go through the software I got with the 8/s and I don't know what some of these older tapes did: 5/8-9 [(PDP 5/8) - Tape #9] - Analysis of Variance 5/8-15 - A.T.E.P.O. Program 5/8-45 - Remote Time Shared III System 5/8-54 - Tic Tac Toe Learning Program (figured this one out) 8/8s -77 - Dual Process Sys. Some of these I can tell what they did by the name but does anyone have any information about any of them? (I haven't had time to go through all the documentation yet). Thanks john

26 years, 8 months

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Deciphering M792-YB "ROM Diode Matrix" PDP-11 bootstrap

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Kevin Schoedel <schoedel(a)kw.igs.net> wrote: > In article <19991021163116.17429.rocketmail(a)web604.mail.yahoo.com>, Ethan > Dicks <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >In my ongoing excavations, I've located a ... M792-YB. The pattern > Looks like only diode=1, right=MSB produces plausible code. > > That's what I did :-) Tiny script using Supnik's emulator. Cool idea. I was going to do it the hard way. > >The eventual goal is to disassemble the bootstrap... > 0: MOV @#177570,R1 > 10: MOV #177400,(R0) > 14: CMP R0,#177344 Thanks, Kevin. Your enthusiastic efforts have saved me quite a bit of time. The code looks OK, suggesting that I didn't post any typos, but the possibility exists. I only recognize (by octal address) certain, common disk interfaces (RL11, RK611, etc.) Can anyone suggest what this might be a bootstrap to? -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 8 months

2
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Highgate Going Down for Disk Upgrade

by mcquiggi＠sfu.ca

Hello All: Highgate.comm.sfu.ca will be offline over the weekend for an upgrade of it's HD. I am going to add 6 GB of space to the machine. The OS will be staying as is for the time being, although at some point I would like to upgrade it to FreeBSD 3.x. User files should not be affected, I will be moving the /usr/home and web data to the new HD. I'll send you all a message once the machine is back up. Sorry for any inconvenience! Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca

26 years, 8 months

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DECUS Paper Tapes

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I am just starting to go through the software I got with the 8/s and I don't >know what some of these older tapes did: > >5/8-9 [(PDP 5/8) - Tape #9] - Analysis of Variance >5/8-15 - A.T.E.P.O. Program >5/8-45 - Remote Time Shared III System >5/8-54 - Tic Tac Toe Learning Program (figured this one out) >8/8s -77 - Dual Process Sys. > > >Some of these I can tell what they did by the name but does anyone have any >information about any of them? (I haven't had time to go through all the >documentation yet). I can't help specifically with the PDP-8 DECUS paper tapes, but I can offer some general clues: DECUS software starts with the model that it runs on - in your case, a PDP-5 or a PDP-8 - and is followed by a sequence number. So "5/8-45" is the 45th program for the PDP-5 or PDP-8. A "S" after the model number signifies either a symposium collection or a "special" collection. Your 5/8-9 tape is a general statistical tool that falls into the "ANOVA" class. For an index of how these numbers apply to PDP-11 (i.e. "11-" and "11S" series) DECUS software, see http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/decus/ for several hundred DECUS 11-series abstracts. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 8 months

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8T26s

by dcoward＠pressstart.com

Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com said on the subject of: Re: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives >Doug, I hope you don't mean you need to replace the chips with broken pins. > >This happened to a ROM in my oldest PET when I was trying to reseat it (poor >contacts in sockets - I eventually replaced them with decent sockets). I stuck >a thin piece of metal - a staple, as I recall - into the socket where the pin >was supposed to go, and soldered it to the stub of the pin. Worked a treat! I can understand doing this for a ROM but it's much easier for me to just go out and buy new-old-stock chips. Here in the Bay area a few of the electronic surplus stores also have well organized selections of chips. I stopped this morning at one that's close to work, Halted Specialities (HSC). The woman behind the counter had never heard of a 8T-anything and continued to write "AT26" until I wrote it out for her. But in less than a minute she returned with a plastic drawer with about 200 in it. I had the choice between "black" or "white and gold". Sixty eight cents each and they are all Synertec parts with 1975 date codes. A few of these places also have large collections of old data books that are not for sale, but for customer reference. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA =========================================

26 years, 8 months

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