- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

Data I/O programmers (was Re: EPROM sideline)

by mranalog＠home.com

Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > --- Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> wrote: > > "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote: > > > The OLD Pre-Unisite (model 2900 ??) programmer from DataI/O... > > > > You're thinking of the model 29 (and 29B). They've been out of support > > for quite some time, and they recently removed the last technical info > > (such as family and part codes) from their web site. > > Does anyone have this info? I have an old programmer under the bench that > I have check, but ISTR that it's a model 29. As I started reading this thread, I went up to the Data I/O file download area and realized in horror that those family and part codes text files were gone! (The "old" directory under ftp://ftp.data-io.com/dataio/device.lst is gone) Someone should host these files! I started searching my hard drive and some backup CDs for files with "22" in them. And I did find the family and part codes text file for the "Series 22/A", but I could swear that I also downloaded a zipped file of all of the old programmer support files from the Data I/O site. I just can't what it might have been named. Can anyone convince me that I'm not just imagining this? And Arlen Michaels amichael(a)nortelnetworks.com said: > I've just bought an old Data i/o series 22 programmer but it lacks a manual. > Data i/o have indeed removed all tech support for older models from their > website. Does anyone know an alternative site still offering manuals? I have a couple Series 22 programmers (and a optional RS-232 paper tape reader, built-in UV eraser,and 351A-064 socket adapter for those little PROMs like the 82S123 :). And I also have a manual, contact me at dcoward(a)pressstart.com. Or if you're already famillar with operating the Series 22, I could just scan the little "flip book" operator's manual. I have flip books for the 22B (What is the 22B?), Series 22, and the 29B. I don't have a regular manual for my 29B. One of these days I need to create a cheat sheet for operating the Series 22 because every time I need to use it, I spend half an hour in the manual (especially to set-up remote operation with a PC). --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ====================================================

26 years, 8 months

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schottky diode again..

by jpero＠cgocable.net

Sheesh, that topic wandered off the diode discussion! Snip! The important thing I wanted to hear about is how schottky diodes reacts if good and what it's like when bad or sick on a DMM with different resistance scale settings used, diode test also seems says "good" but I know it's very low current also low voltage so that would usually not screen out sick diodes. That why I used resistance ranges just to be sure. Yes, I pull diodes and transistors out for checks to be sure. Ingore the battery thing please. I'm more concerned getting the notebook going. Thanks. Wizard

26 years, 8 months

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Info about Alpha Micro 1021, HP terminal, 8" floppy

by amichael＠nortelnetworks.com

Don't know about the 1021, but I've got an Alpha Micro 1042E. Got it from an automotive parts business that used it for inventory and order desk: it's got a raft of RS-232 ports on the back to timeshare an office full of terminals. The 1042E is an S-100 box (but BIG enough to hold its 8" Winchester) with a 68K cpu card and an unusual tape backup interface card (it uses a modified videocassette recorder). So I suspect it would be worth digging inside to see if the 1021 is likewise S-100. The operating system is AMOS which is somewhat like DEC's RT-11. I don't have any documentation. I can't figure out how to get code into it: it has no floppy drive. Maybe Alpha Micro distributed everything on videotape (charging extra for New Releases or Oscar winners?). > -----Original Message----- > From: McFadden, Mike [SMTP:mmcfadden@cmh.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 10:17 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Info about Alpha Micro 1021, HP terminal, 8" floppy > > Any info on these mature computer components? > > I was looking in a stack of pallet sized boxes at the local computer > surplus and I came across a Alpha Micro 1021 computer. It appears to be > about 2' by 2' by 1.5' with a series of DB25 connectors on the back. I > couldn't move the top box to gain access to the lower box. I couldn't see > much more than the exterior. > <snip> -- Arlen Michaels amichael(a)nortelnetworks.com Nortel Networks, Ottawa, Canada voice (613) 763-2568 fax (613) 763-9344

26 years, 8 months

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Apple ][ + but no Floppies

by rhudson＠ix.netcom.com

On 11/02/99 22:59:13 you wrote: > >> I just managed to get control of the machine while checking out a "Games" >> disk and I now have DOS 3.3 >> >> How can I transfer the Binary files (non basic) to my newly formatted disk. >> All it has is a HELLO basic program. (like INTBASIC and FPBASIC and D800 >Do you actually have INTBASIC and FPBASIC files on a disk? If so, then you >probably have the DOS 3.3 System Master disk, which comes with a handy >file-copying program called FID. > >There is also a COPYA program which copies entire disks -- that may come in >handy as well. > >-- Derek > drats I don't have either of those...they weren't on the games disk. :^( (missing out on all the prommise of my powerful new Apple][+ )

26 years, 8 months

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Northstar Horizon

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well, I don't know what instructions were used to move the SA1004 contents to the BBRAMDISK, but it didn't take long to write in MBASIC and compile with BASCOM. It was pretty similar to the formatter, since that was written the same way. The odd thing was, since I wrote a lot of assembler back then, the ASM version of that program, or of the formater, for that matter, was not noticeably faster than the BASCOM version. Both were probably being held up by the drive. Nowadays, the 8MB ramdisk would be dirt simple, using one simm and one CPLD, and a small one at that. There was, by the way, an outfit nearby, which produced, among other things, a 10MB RAMDRIVE for the TI-PC. That product was interfaced via SCSI and was moveable between systems. It must have lived on a battery as well. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 6:53 AM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon >> I even have a 32K card with battery backup on board. I also built a RAMDISK >> with a battery backup so I could dump an entire SA1004 to it in one stroke >> and keep it alive with a couple of motorcycle-battery sized gel cells and a >> major DC-DC converter. I built one for a business partner and hooked up >> solar cells and one of those adjustable DC-DC converters (one of the old, >> Old, OLD Boschert adjustable open-frame types) to bring the 60 Vdc or so >> down to 14Volts and another to build the 5 Volts from that. > >At the time I did the RomDisk I also did a ramdisk (io port addressable) >not unlike the Compupro Mdrive. the difference was I used Mixmos static >ram and used 4 AA (500mah) nicads to keep it alive for up to 100hours. >Total ram was 128k. A later design used 2kx8 EEPROM and Cmos static rams >for 128k for each "drive". > >I also have two BPK72 bubble memories (128kb each). > >My current project is a dual semiconductor disk for S100 use 1mb or >flashram and 8mb of Dram battery backed up. Both addressable Via port >addresses (uses otir/inir to read write blocks). With current 1mb 30 pin >simms and FPGAs it's not a dense board. I used 1mb 30 pin as I can get >then for near nothing. Whats nice wth that config is I can preload it >and then plug it into another system and read/write it easily. > >Allison >

26 years, 8 months

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Northstar Horizon

by edick＠idcomm.com

I did some similar fooling around by populating an SRAM card with battery-backed rams. It wasn't worth it at the time, though. I even have a 32K card with battery backup on board. I also built a RAMDISK with a battery backup so I could dump an entire SA1004 to it in one stroke and keep it alive with a couple of motorcycle-battery sized gel cells and a major DC-DC converter. I built one for a business partner and hooked up solar cells and one of those adjustable DC-DC converters (one of the old, Old, OLD Boschert adjustable open-frame types) to bring the 60 Vdc or so down to 14Volts and another to build the 5 Volts from that. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 6:48 PM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon ><Nowadays, it's really tempting to use an EPROM or Battery-Backed SRAM to ><hold the entire CP/M CCP, BDOS, and BIOS, and let the warm boot reload the ><CCP from there. That would certainly make the control-c quicker. > >Nowadays! I did this back in early 81 using 2732s. I put a monitor, bios, >ZCPR2 and BDOS in that. The CCP and BDOS only eats 5.5k. It was set up >rather odd as the system runs from a small 2716 at cold boot with a monitor >and then by user command loads the 8k image into ram from IO addressed >"romdisk". The CTRL-C was very fast as it could do INIR copies from the >rom. A later version still running is 256k of eprom (27512s) had all of >cpm, loader, ASM, VEDIT, SID (and more). This version the boot EEprom >is at 0000 and is truncated bdos, bios and a loader. This was done so that >I could have it load CPM.SYS image for testing from the selected drive >including the ROMDISK. This is raw speed. > >Allison > >

26 years, 8 months

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Nx 586

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

Someone here is selling Nexgen 586 CPU/Board sets. I was thinking of investing in one because I've never seen one before. Were there many made? Not classic I know, but maybe more obsolete than some 10 year old computers perhaps? Hans

26 years, 8 months

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Help: Identify DEC/Dilog Modules

by dburrows＠netpath.net

>1. I have a M7133 Unibus 11/24 CPU. As it's a single card CPU, does it >still need a custom backplane, or is this a leter model CPU that can fit >in a standard SU or something like that? It needs a special backplane. M7133 in slot 1, M7134 (MMU) slot 2, Slot 3 to 6 are modified for 22 bit memory. Slot 7 starts the regular UNIBUS IIRC. I have a few if you want me to check the DD #. Dan

26 years, 8 months

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HP-HIL keyboard/mouse

by spc＠armigeron.com

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 745 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991028/34a52f6c/at…

26 years, 8 months

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Apple ][ + but no Floppies

by rhudson＠ix.netcom.com

I just managed to get control of the machine while checking out a "Games" disk and I now have DOS 3.3 How can I transfer the Binary files (non basic) to my newly formatted disk. All it has is a HELLO basic program. (like INTBASIC and FPBASIC and D800 (?)) Thanks All.

26 years, 8 months

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Northstar Horizon

by edick＠idcomm.com

That's about the price range I remember too. OTOH, I used to get the Integrand box and, separately of course, the CCS CPU, CCS 64K DRAM board, and CCS FDC for about $980. Two of the Misubishi MB2894 (?) DSDD 8" drives cost $780, though, and the system still needed a dumb terminal. For that I normally used a Televideo 920, or, later, 910. Those also cost about $750 back then. It wasn't cheap, no matter how you turned it. With that combination, I was able to put out a computer system which had a decent display, decent performance, and generally acceptable storage for around $3k with a few bucks in my pocket if I shopped carefully. It was easier, of course, if the client already had some stuff, like a printer and a terminal. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bob Stek <bobstek(a)ix.netcom.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 7:19 PM Subject: RE: Northstar Horizon >Define late entry. The N* Product Catalog I have in front of me is dated >January, 1978 and it says: > >"North Star Computers ... was incorporated in June, 1976. ...North Star now >offers a complete S-100 bus computer." > >I'd have to dig out more definitive references, but it seems likely that the >Horizon was first offered in 1977. The price at the time was $1599 (kit) or >$1899 (assembled) for the Horizon 12-slot motherboard with built in serial >port (additional serial or parallel port was $39), RTC, chassis and cover, >15A @ 8v, 6A @+/- 16v power supply, with 4 MHz Z-80, 16k RAM, disk >controller, and one Shugart minifloppy. (A second Shugart was $400!) The >CPU board listed for $199, and the 16K RAM for $399 - parity option was $39 >(I remember reading warnings about using dynamic RAM w/o parity 'cause stray >cosmic rays were likely to corrupt your memory at admittedly infrequent >times!) > >Bob Stek >bobstek(a)ix.netcom.com >Saver of Lost SOLs > >-----Original Message----- >From: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu >[mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher >Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 1:29 PM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon > > >The N* Horizon was a late entry in the S-100 market, and, though it was >priced competitively with CROMEMCO and VECTOR GRAPHICS systems, it didn't >come in at a lower price than component systems using boards purchased >individually based on comparison-shopping for the best price/function >tradeoff. >

26 years, 8 months

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Classic Computer Hardware & Software - Sealed Bid Auction

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

I recently moved, and the living room of the old house is currently filled to the walls with stuff I regrettably can't bring along (go figure - 3 times the square footage plus a barn and a garage I didn't have before), so I'm hoping you guys will help me find new homes for it. To see pictures and descriptions, go to the following URL. It will take a few minutes because there are a number of items and the pictures are not small. http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computer-sale.htm This will be conducted as a sealed-bid auction. High bidder takes the item. Bid by e-mailing your bid (minimum of $10 on each item, please) to bill_r(a)inetnebr.com (that's bill(underscore)r). Please include the item number, description, your bid amount, and your e-mail and snail-mail address and telephone number in each bid. Bids will be accepted through November 30th, 1999, although some items may close early if I receive what I feel is a reasonable offer and/or have not seen much interest in an item. In addition to the amount stated in the bid, the high bidder also agrees to pay actual packing and shipping costs, and insurance if desired, or to arrange to pick the item(s) up in Lincoln, Nebraska. Seller reserves the right to withdraw items from or add items to the auction at any time. Payment by cashier's check or money order will result in faster shipment. Payment by personal check will delay shipment until the check clears. All items are AS-IS, and no guarantee of any kind is made with regard to operability, suitability for application, safety, or completeness. Descriptions are as honest and accurate as possible; if you have specific questions about an item and are serious about placing a bid, please e-mail me at the above address and I'll try to provide additional information. This is all stuff I've collected over the years and no longer have room to keep - I'd rather not get rid of it, but at least I'd like to see it go to someone who will enjoy it and appreciate it. -Bill Richman (bill_r(a)inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.

26 years, 8 months

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VMS architects

by mbg＠world.std.com

>But the survivors get to write the history. "There Ain't No Such Thing = >As Justice." -- Larry Niven Sorry... the Nivenisms are: TANJ - "There Ain't No Justice" TANSTAAFL - "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 8 months

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Help with (Obsolete computers--a paper)

by dlw＠trailingedge.com

I've seen newspaper articles and such on this topic online but don't know if they're still out there or even where they were. Can any of you here help him out with some links or such? Respond directy to him at the address in the message. Thanks. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: GEngel039(a)aol.com Date sent: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 22:06:59 EST Subject: Re: Obsolete computers--a paper To: dlw(a)trailingedge.com Hi, thanks for responding! I am taking an introductory computer class, and need to do a two page paper and a 5 minute speech. We get to choose the subject. Basically, I am looking for brief information, such as environmental hazzards posed by discarded computers, perhaps an estimate of the number of computers being disposed of daily (monthly, yearly-basically I need one estimate to work with), what can be done with these "obsolete" computers to keep them from ending up in landfills (I noticed you were working with this), etc. I'm not looking for you to give me the information, I don't mind doing the research myself, as I find this an interesting topic. I just need maybe a few websites that may be able to help me. I appreciate any help you may be able to give me in steering me in the right direction. Thank you! Damon -----------End of Message------------------- ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw(a)trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com

26 years, 8 months

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Northstar Horizon

by edick＠idcomm.com

The N* Horizon was a late entry in the S-100 market, and, though it was priced competitively with CROMEMCO and VECTOR GRAPHICS systems, it didn't come in at a lower price than component systems using boards purchased individually based on comparison-shopping for the best price/function tradeoff. As I mentioned previously, I used the SD Systems or CCS boards. Both of these CPU's included an on-board serial port which was used by the firmware as the console port. What's more, their FDC's handled both drive sizes, albeit in soft-sectored format only, straight out of the box. I don't remember the details of the comparison shopping ventures, but would not have used individually chosen boards or, in the case of CCS, board sets, if there were no price advantage. The CCS board set was always quite trouble-free, and the SD Systems memory boards were the only boards of theirs that ever gave me headaches, though that was seldom. The N* didn't work well with KONAN (SMD) or MSC HDC's either. I didn't investigate this full, however. It didn't work, well, on to the next one. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 9:55 AM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon >On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Yes, there were several ways in which the N* could be modified to work >> better and meet the target of providing a full 64K TPA and handling CP/M >> standard diskettes. >> >> The easiest way, however, was to use hardware from other MFG's, which didn't >> require modification. It happens that hardware from other MFG's was less >> costly as well. > >Well in 1978 (early) that was not the case, sure there were lots of >players and junk but the minifloppy was still quite new and people were >not quite able to get clear of sticker shock for 32k of ram! > >The NS* was a good cpu, good box (backplane and basic serial/parallel IO) >That for the price was good. There were other boxes, but the really nice >stuff I lusted for were appearing in the early 80s. By then the NS* was >hard at work (with upgrades). > >Allison >

26 years, 8 months

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A sad day for DPT...

by bruce.a.lane＠boeing.com

Heck, a sad day for storage overall! Adaptec has swallowed up yet another customer-friendly SCSI adapter maker. See: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-1425979.html?tag=st.ne.1002.thed.1003-2 00-1425979 While not directly related to classic computing, I know a lot of us use more modern systems for numerous duties, and I know I can't be the only one using DPT's 'legacy' products from the early 90's. Anyone care to wager what Adaptec will do to DPT's well-stocked FTP site, or their support of said legacy gear? Adaptec, from what I can see, is getting dangerously close to turning into the Micro$haft of the SCSI adapter world. (Kai, if you're reading this... I'm sorry. I know you work for MS, and I want you to know that I don't hold it against you in any way, but I think everyone on the list knows how I feel about Billy-boy and his Evil Empire). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- NOTE: The views expressed are mine alone, and do NOT necessarily represent the views of the Boeing Company, its management or employees. Bruce Lane, Boeing Aircraft & Missiles, PWSSG Computing DC Campus, 9-98.2, Col. N11 (206) 655-8996 laneb(a)bcstec.ca.boeing.com OR http://bcstec.ca.boeing.com/~laneb

26 years, 8 months

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Today's toy -- Hayes Chrono!

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Hello, all: I just got my hands on a Hayes Chronograph. No box, but complete with wall wart, and manuals. It's fatter than I thought that it would be -- about 2x the size of a standard Hayse stack modem. It has a calibration port on the back, as well as a write-protect switch. It works great! The time is wrong, but it works! Rich [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator

26 years, 8 months

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Northstar Horizon

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Nowadays, it's really tempting to use an EPROM or Battery-Backed SRAM to <hold the entire CP/M CCP, BDOS, and BIOS, and let the warm boot reload the <CCP from there. That would certainly make the control-c quicker. Nowadays! I did this back in early 81 using 2732s. I put a monitor, bios, ZCPR2 and BDOS in that. The CCP and BDOS only eats 5.5k. It was set up rather odd as the system runs from a small 2716 at cold boot with a monitor and then by user command loads the 8k image into ram from IO addressed "romdisk". The CTRL-C was very fast as it could do INIR copies from the rom. A later version still running is 256k of eprom (27512s) had all of cpm, loader, ASM, VEDIT, SID (and more). This version the boot EEprom is at 0000 and is truncated bdos, bios and a loader. This was done so that I could have it load CPM.SYS image for testing from the selected drive including the ROMDISK. This is raw speed. Allison

26 years, 8 months

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Northstar Horizon

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I have never seen a Z-80A system that needed DMA for disk I/O. The require <loop is simple enough to synchronize using the nWAIT line. The CCS and SD <FDC's both did PIO, and since the OS didn't have anything better to do <during disk I/O, the wasted CPU cycles, if there were any, were going to b <wasted anyway. Well I have several. What is the cpu doing? Running CPM and more. The cycles it would ahve been doing PIO are now, supporting interrupts real time, printer buffering and disk caching for the disk (hard and floppy). Keep in mind CPM didn't rule out much so background tasks and even multiprocessing were possible with CP/M-80 with a few minor limitations. The big thing that annoyed me to the max with many of the boxen of the time was that go to the disk ment stop typing and compared to my PDP8, PDP-11 experience this was stupid. PIO at 4mhz really limited the number of interrupts yu could take while servicing a DD floppy (worst case a byte every 27uS) or DD 8" (worst case a byte EVERY 13uS). Sure you could sync a z80 to that but it was pretty much dead waiting for a sector to come around. DMA was a solution, that and use of interrupts (mode 2) made for a much smoother system that felt smoother and faster to the user. It was particulary noticeable for apps that either ran overlays or like VEDIT virtualized the file on the disk. <few locations of memory as opposed to a large (2K) refresh buffer in the <already small memory map. It's just that N* (and VECTOR) were not among <them. NS* didn't do a video board. Many people used a VDM-1 in it or the VectorGrapahic card. In 1978 a ADM1A was ~$800, good TTY $400, VDM1 $199 (if I remember right). The SD systems board was better and looked more like a parallel device. <stated. I would not, however, pretend that the CCS or SDS stuff I liked t <use was enough "better" that anyone would be making a mistake to use it. I thought they were pretty neat too. thats why in '96 I got two CCS systems complete and running! Allison

26 years, 8 months

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S-100 phantom (Was: RE: Northstar Horizon)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> So My Compupro RAM16 (64k static) in the NS* (system A) has all banks <> enabled and if we hit e800H the FDC forces phantom/ and the ram16 is <> deselected for that address. < <Ah... I see... Now, the 4FDC does not have any connection to <pin 67, so it is not using phantom. But it should be easy to <implement... Can I just take the /CS (-NOT- chip select) pin <from the 2708 and wire it to 67? Maybe I need to -NOT- it first? You could but it would be bad juju. the normal drive for phantom/ is either an open collector driver (7406, 7438) or maybe a driver like 74126, 241, 244... to be active only when active low. Also you don't want that phantom/ going low from some other card from asserting CS/ on the 4fdc. Allison

26 years, 8 months

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subscribe

by jallain＠databaseamerica.com

26 years, 8 months

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Data I/O programmers (was Re: EPROM sideline)

by amichael＠nortelnetworks.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [SMTP:ethan_dicks@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 3:00 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Data I/O programmers (was Re: EPROM sideline) > > > > --- Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> wrote: > > "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote: > > > The OLD Pre-Unisite (model 2900 ??) programmer from DataI/O... > > > > You're thinking of the model 29 (and 29B). They've been out of support > > for quite some time, and they recently removed the last technical info > > (such as family and part codes) from their web site. > > Does anyone have this info? I have an old programmer under the bench that > I've just bought an old Data i/o series 22 programmer but it lacks a manual. Data i/o have indeed removed all tech support for older models from their website. Does anyone know an alternative site still offering manuals? -- Arlen Michaels amichael(a)nortelnetworks.com Nortel Networks, Ottawa, Canada voice (613) 763-2568 fax (613) 763-9344

26 years, 8 months

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Northstar Horizon

by edick＠idcomm.com

Phantom was a common signal, but it really didn't take long before many vendors were simply copying the EPROM into memory, with a flipflop that enable the EPROM simply toggling off when the most significant location in the EPROM was accessed. That way it didn't matter much whether you had PHANTOM implemented or not. The EPROM was generally not enabled for a WRITE to memory, regardless of where it was writing, so copying the EPROM into RAM was pretty straightforward. The only thing PHANTOM had to do was disable the RAM board's output buffers, and it was common enough that it generated a wait-state or two as well, since the EPROMS were pretty slow. Nowadays, it's really tempting to use an EPROM or Battery-Backed SRAM to hold the entire CP/M CCP, BDOS, and BIOS, and let the warm boot reload the CCP from there. That would certainly make the control-c quicker. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 1:44 PM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon >> > My solution was far more reasonable. Map it <VDM1> at 4000h and set a bit >> > to enable it (small hack). That way it used no TPA space and was still >> > faster than using a TTY. I later set up one of the NS* controllers that >> > way for a full 64k space. Of course I had to write my own drivers but it >> > was pretty trivial. >> >> And hack the RAM board to be disabled when the VDM1 is enabled? > >Ah, ever hear of phantom... part of the MDS-A and VDM IO hack was to set >them up to output Phantom, in both cases it was just a jumper required. >The disable was simpler, MDS-A has a rarely used sector interupt enable >latch and the VDM used a bunch of bits for windowshading, something I >considered useless and removed from the board (a few socket level jumpers) >and I had the bit I needed for enable. If they were enabled phantom was >generated, if they were not ram was there. > >Allison > >

26 years, 8 months

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Northstar Horizon

by edick＠idcomm.com

I have never seen a Z-80A system that needed DMA for disk I/O. The required loop is simple enough to synchronize using the nWAIT line. The CCS and SDS FDC's both did PIO, and since the OS didn't have anything better to do during disk I/O, the wasted CPU cycles, if there were any, were going to be wasted anyway. In any case, there were a few video boards, notably the one from SDS, which didn't chew up a bunch of memory space. There were some which only used a few locations of memory as opposed to a large (2K) refresh buffer in the already small memory map. It's just that N* (and VECTOR) were not among them. What's better is not so easy to establish anyway, since what's better to one person may not be at all acceptable to another. The N* Horizon was a pretty popular product. I didn't like it because of the reasons I've already stated. I would not, however, pretend that the CCS or SDS stuff I liked to use was enough "better" that anyone would be making a mistake to use it. What persuaded me, however, was that the price of the CCS or SDS stuff was lower overall. What's more, I liked the MSC9391 HDC, which was too tall to fit in most boxes the size of the N* Horizon, including, by the way, the Altair and IMSAI. Those Integrand boxes with drive power and lodging built into the box that powered and housed the backplane were pretty decent, though, and they'd hold the double-high card from MSC. There was even enough room for an extra Power-One PSU (+12, +5) for the HDD so it worked out for my needs. That was another factor which drove me in a direction away from the prepackaged systems. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 1:53 PM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon >On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> That was my point, exactly. One shouldn't have to hack a new machine in >> order to make it what one wants. That's doubly true when you can buy what >> you want for less and not have to hack it. > > >Well since the bus was not very standard, and the industry evolving... > >The key was what was better, and at the time I did my thing better was a >limited choice. A year maybe two that choice was far greater but some of >the fundimental design issues I was really taking aim at were not being >solved except by a limted few. IE: spinning in PIO to do disk IO to me >was plain dumb. CPU cycles were in my eyes being wasted. I really didn't >care if it was memory mapped or IO mapped realative to that waste of CPU >as a resource. In 1977 I wanted reliability NS* had it. In 1979 I wanted >storage space and more speed and I started working on it. The DMA (of >smart) boards I wanted however were still wanting or way out of line for >quite a while. > >Allison >

26 years, 8 months

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Classified Vintage

by sring＠uslink.net

sRING Does anyone know some really good classified ad sites for vintage computers?

26 years, 8 months

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Northstar Horizon

by edick＠idcomm.com

The same thing was "wrong" (meaning that it irritated me and offended my sense of how things should be) as with the N*, in that they used memory space I wanted to use. Consequently, I never seriously used, nor did I ever promote them. It was no big deal, but at the time I thought that it was. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dave Dameron <ddameron(a)earthlink.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 6:40 PM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon >At 10:52 PM 10/31/99 -0700, Richard wrote: >>There certainly were a few vendors whose systems were as much off-center as >>the N*. Just take a look at Vector Graphics' systems, for example. I once >>owned a couple of those, with their memory-mapped video refresh memory. > >What was wrong with their "flashwriter", at least for that time, late >1970's? It was very similar to the Processor Tech's "VDM", and cost a whole >lot less than a text VDU. You could move its location in memory if desired, >but had to have matching drivers. >-Dave >

26 years, 8 months

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Quote nitpick [WAS: Re: VMS architects]

by mgregory＠vantageresearch.com

-----Original Message----- From: Marc Hustvedt <mhustved(a)umich.edu> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 1:28 PM Subject: Re: VMS architects < much snipped > > Cutler wasn't the only key person behind VMS; the other was Dick Hustvedt, > who was evenrtually injured in a traffic accident pulling out from DEC's > driveway onto Spit Brook Road and ended up on permanent disability with > short-term memory loss. A friend in the VMS group said that Hustvedt, not > Cutler, was responsible for much more of the tricky, nifty stuff in VMS. > But the survivors get to write the history. > "There Ain't No Such Thing As Justice." -- Larry Niven I think you're confusing : TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch - Robert Heinlein? with TANJ - There Ain't No Justice - Larry Niven, "The Long ARM of Gil Hamilton" Mark.

26 years, 8 months

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Northstar Horizon

by edick＠idcomm.com

That was my point, exactly. One shouldn't have to hack a new machine in order to make it what one wants. That's doubly true when you can buy what you want for less and not have to hack it. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 11:53 AM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon >Allison wrote: >> My solution was far more reasonable. Map it <VDM1> at 4000h and set a bit >> to enable it (small hack). That way it used no TPA space and was still >> faster than using a TTY. I later set up one of the NS* controllers that >> way for a full 64k space. Of course I had to write my own drivers but it >> was pretty trivial. > >And hack the RAM board to be disabled when the VDM1 is enabled?

26 years, 8 months

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VMS architects

by mhustved＠umich.edu

OZIX was the operating system for PRISM, one of several 32-bit RISC architectures that DEC was developing at one point. When it was canned, Dave Cutler once again threatened to walk, and DEC took him up on it. Anyway, later, DEC was anxious to get Windows/NT for Alpha, and so signed an agreement before they saw the code that everything in there belonged to Microsoft and that they had no claim to it. Afterwards, some people still at DEC pointed out that their initials were still there in the edit history and that they'd been had. Cutler was quoted in some article as saying that DEC could have had it but now they'll have to pay to get it. Bill Gates was reportedly pretty upset when he saw that article. (There are also stories about Windows/NT device drivers; if you want drivers for hardware you're selling to be included on the NT distribution, you have to sign over *all* rights to the driver code to Microsoft. I don't know if any hardware manufacturers consider their drivers to contain code which gives them a competitive advantage over other hardware manufacturers; if there are, they have a tough choice.) But IMHO, without Microsoft behind it, the operating system would not have gotten too far beyond the VMS market anyway. And it gave DEC leverage to get Microsoft to support Alpha and outsource some support work to DEC. The system services (the layer under the Windows API) are a whole lot like VMS. That makes the WNT ones a lot easier to use for those who used the VMS ones. When the C++ standards committee started up, Windows/NT wasn't announced yet. Microsoft's rep was insistent that exceptions be resumable, as they are in VMS. I had fun (seriously, for some reason I enjoyed it) taking the position that VMS did it that way but C++ shouldn't. (I had tried to use VMS exceptions in a VLSI CAD application and it was a major pain. I tried prototyping the same thing in C++ and it looked like a pain on paper. And it turned out that they only important places they were used in VMS were printing messages with context information [and a subroutine could walk up the stack to do that] and returning to the debugger [and a subroutine could do that, although there might be some protection ring stuff to finagle too]. Plus, POSIX Threads - descended from DECthreads - had chosen the non-resumable model, and so my orders were to try to get C++ to follow suit. The interested can see Bjarne Stroustrup's "acorn book" for an account of the others who opposed resumable exceptions on the grounds of more extensive usage in real projects (incl. TI, Xerox). Cutler wasn't the only key person behind VMS; the other was Dick Hustvedt, who was evenrtually injured in a traffic accident pulling out from DEC's driveway onto Spit Brook Road and ended up on permanent disability with short-term memory loss. A friend in the VMS group said that Hustvedt, not Cutler, was responsible for much more of the tricky, nifty stuff in VMS. But the survivors get to write the history. "There Ain't No Such Thing As Justice." -- Larry Niven

26 years, 8 months

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Data I/O programmers (was Re: EPROM sideline)

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> wrote: > "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote: > > The OLD Pre-Unisite (model 2900 ??) programmer from DataI/O... > > You're thinking of the model 29 (and 29B). They've been out of support > for quite some time, and they recently removed the last technical info > (such as family and part codes) from their web site. Does anyone have this info? I have an old programmer under the bench that I have check, but ISTR that it's a model 29. It was purchased in the early 1980's to program 6309 256x8 PROMS (the same kind that are on the Apple ][ disk card) for an early MC68K design. I got it over 5 years ago to support those very same cards but have never used it. For my typical EPROM stuff, I have a PeeCee-based programmer with a 40-pin socket in a D-to-A box that programs most stuff up to 1Mbit, both logic and memory devices. I use it to blow GALs for my Amiga product. To solve the data-in problem, I've got the programmer in a Commodore Colt w/8003 NIC and I use Kermit over TCP/IP to move data in and out. It's not as portable as an integrated ROM blaster would be, but it works great for me. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 8 months

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EPROM sideline

by edick＠idcomm.com

That's why I recommended the moderate "hack" that amounts to building a circuit with cheap and available substitute(s) and make adapter cable(s) to the various place(s) where such substitution will be needed. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 11:50 AM Subject: Re: EPROM sideline >"Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote: >> The OLD Pre-Unisite (model 2900 ??) programmer from DataI/O was what I used >> many years ago to program both the 5203 and the 1702. Surely they haven't >> entirely skipped those in the course of moving to the UniSit?, or have they? > >You're thinking of the model 29 (and 29B). They've been out of support >for quite some time, and they recently removed the last technical info >(such as family and part codes) from their web site. > >> Unfortunately not. The UniSite is a good machine, and since it's >> pin-driver technology could probably be made to do it, but Data I/O never >> developed an algorithm for the 1700 series parts that I'm aware of. > >I'd be *very* surprised if the pin drivers came anywhere close to being >able to suport the 1702 or 5203, or some of the very early exotic >PROMs. The Unisite was designed to support mainstream parts being >produced in the mid 80s, none of which required voltages above 25V or >below ground. > >A friend just picked up a Unisite for $200. I've been looking for a good >deal on one for 13 years, but I don't ever seem to find them. The closest >I got was about four years ago; AT&T capital was selling one for $800 >and I might have been willing to buy, except that it had already sold >the day before. Sigh. > >Data I/O recently (within the last few years) started putting some kind >of 80 MB removable data storage device (disk? flash?) in their model 2900 >and 3900 programmers. When will they get a clue and put a friggin >Ethernet interface on them? Geting bits into the programmer has always >been their weak point. Their async serial ports are too slow (even >at 115.2 Kbps) for dealing with modern EPROMs and flash parts. On the >models with floppy drives, you'd think that sticking in a floppy with the >data would be fast, but no, they've managed to make that ridiculously >slow as well. Maybe they think this will get customers to buy more >programmers from them: "Hmmm... for this product I'll need to burn >sets of eight 32-megabit flash parts for each version of the software. >It will take three hours each for the download. I can spend three work >days for each version, or buy eight 2900s and do it all in three hours." >On the other hand, Hanlon's razor says "never ascribe to malice that which >can be adequately explained by stupidity."

26 years, 8 months

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EPROM sideline

by edick＠idcomm.com

The OLD Pre-Unisite (model 2900 ??) programmer from DataI/O was what I used many years ago to program both the 5203 and the 1702. Surely they haven't entirely skipped those in the course of moving to the UniSit?, or have they? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane <kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 11:09 PM Subject: Re: EPROM sideline >At 18:39 01-11-1999, Dave Dameron wrote: > >>Can you program 1702A's? > > Unfortunately not. The UniSite is a good machine, and since it's >pin-driver technology could probably be made to do it, but Data I/O never >developed an algorithm for the 1700 series parts that I'm aware of. > >>How about the similar National part 5203? Both are >>256 Byte EPROM's. There was also a Motorola part, 6834(?). > > Neither one is listed on my device chart, so I would have to say no. Sorry >about that. The problem is that Data I/O keeps information about how to >actually program the UniSite's innards a closely-guarded secret, so I have >no way to even try to cobble something together. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

26 years, 8 months

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S-100 phantom (Was: RE: Northstar Horizon)

by edick＠idcomm.com

It might work better if you use an unused gate or some such. Phantom often has numerous loads on it, so you could consider a pair of OC gates if they're available. Otherwise, a SCHOTTKY diode should suffice, since its forward voltage isn't enough to confuse any other device into missing the LOW on the PHANTOM line. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink <bill(a)chipware.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 3:06 PM Subject: RE: S-100 phantom (Was: RE: Northstar Horizon) >> > So My Compupro RAM16 (64k static) in the NS* (system A) has all banks >> > enabled and if we hit e800H the FDC forces phantom/ and the ram16 is >> > deselected for that address. >> >> Ah... I see... Now, the 4FDC does not have any connection to >> pin 67, so it is not using phantom. But it should be easy to >> implement... Can I just take the /CS (-NOT- chip select) pin >> from the 2708 and wire it to 67? Maybe I need to -NOT- it first? > >Exercising a little more brain power, I see I'll need to put a >diode in there to keep someone elses phantom from activating this >PROM.

26 years, 8 months

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Info about Alpha Micro 1021, HP terminal, 8" floppy

by mmcfadden＠cmh.edu

Any info on these mature computer components? I was looking in a stack of pallet sized boxes at the local computer surplus and I came across a Alpha Micro 1021 computer. It appears to be about 2' by 2' by 1.5' with a series of DB25 connectors on the back. I couldn't move the top box to gain access to the lower box. I couldn't see much more than the exterior. An adjacent box had a Black Box brand case in it with two drives inside one 8" and one 5 1/4". They look like they have a ribbon connector interface to a computer. Another box had a HP 2392A terminal inside. All of these boxes are covered with dirt and crud, I hope no bird droppings, toxoplasmosis is not a disease I want to catch. I may have to take 4-5 hours and dig through all of the boxes to see what's inside. Kind of like looking for buried treasure, lots of dirt and crud before you find the gold. Maybe the smart choice is to offer $20 for the lot, I think they send all of the non PC stuff to China. Any information would be appreciated. If I don't want/need them maybe someone else does. We can work out shipping. Mike McFadden mmcfadden(a)cmh.edu

26 years, 8 months

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Northstar Horizon

by edick＠idcomm.com

Yes, there were several ways in which the N* could be modified to work better and meet the target of providing a full 64K TPA and handling CP/M standard diskettes. The easiest way, however, was to use hardware from other MFG's, which didn't require modification. It happens that hardware from other MFG's was less costly as well. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 6:22 AM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon >> The same thing was "wrong" (meaning that it irritated me and offended my >> sense of how things should be) as with the N*, in that they used memory >> space I wanted to use. Consequently, I never seriously used, nor did I ever >> promote them. It was no big deal, but at the time I thought that it was. > >My solution was far more reasonable. Map it <VDM1> at 4000h and set a bit >to enable it (small hack). That way it used no TPA space and was still >faster than using a TTY. I later set up one of the NS* controllers that >way for a full 64k space. Of course I had to write my own drivers but it >was pretty trivial. > >Allison >

26 years, 8 months

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To give away leading edge-computer/monitor and printer

by chrish＠kootenay.net

Hey Guys(and Gals) Before it gors to the dumpster anybody want a leading edge model DC-2011 computer w/leading edge model DR-1240 mono monitor and a OKIDATA model U-92 MICROLINE printer will giveaway as one unit or in peices for the cost of shipping or will get parts and boards out of the computer if you want comes with a seagate HD not sure how big. If interested please respond thanx for the use of the bandwith :) Chris Halarewich In Castlegar BC, Canada

26 years, 8 months

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FW: Help.. AcerAnyWare 386S laptop system disk

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

Now THIS qualifies as 'classic...' Found on Usenet. Anyone have the system disk he's looking for? If so, I bet he'd be Really Happy to hear from you. Attachment follows. -=-=- <snip> -=-=- On 2 Nov 1999 03:47:43 GMT, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc you wrote: >>From: "Thomas" <thomas_job(a)hotmail.com> >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc >>Subject: Help.. AcerAnyWare 386S laptop system disk >>Date: 2 Nov 1999 03:47:43 GMT >>Organization: VSNL >>Lines: 4 >>Message-ID: <01bf2486$9fd1af00$2a4836ca(a)dtevsnl.net.in.vsnl.net.in> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp72-42.pppcal.vsnl.net.in >>X-Trace: news.vsnl.net.in 941514463 19081 202.54.72.42 (2 Nov 1999 03:47:43 GMT) >>X-Complaints-To: postmaster(a)news.vsnl.net.in >>NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 1999 03:47:43 GMT >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.vsnl.net.in!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc:405 >> >>Hello... >>Pl. help me if you have the system disk of old AcerAnyWare 386S laptop. >> >>Thanks.. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."

26 years, 8 months

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EPROM issues, who can burn?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 10/31/99 9:19:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, mikeford(a)socal.rr.com writes: > > Heresy beyond heresy I would actually like to see people with eprom burners > be able to make a few bucks by burning the eproms. I think it would make a > DANDY little web business. Now obviously the database and the burning > businesses need to be completely separate, people would be all over us if > we "sold" burnt eproms, but what would be wrong with burning customer > supplied data and printing a label with supplied text? i could burn/read eproms with my BAL500 card that's in my apple ][+ if someone can tell me how to use it... DB Young Team OS/2 --> this message printed on recycled disk space view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm (now accepting donations!)

26 years, 8 months

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EPROM sideline

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well . . . the 6834, IIRC, was a two-ported RAM plus some I/O. Its features were designed into the MC68121, which was a 6803 with the two-ported RAM and I/O built in. It was not, to the best of my recollection, available in an EPROM version. The 5203's were really tricky to progam, but they were pretty! I made several into jewelry. I did that with a couple of 1702's also, and an i8008, having plucked them directly from working applications. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dave Dameron <ddameron(a)earthlink.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 6:54 PM Subject: Re: EPROM sideline >At 06:50 AM 11/1/99 -0800, Bruce wrote: > >> <snip> >> >> <snickering> >> >> Dave, take a look at www.bluefeathertech.com/devices.html >> >> I'm way ahead of you. I've only had a few jobs along those lines >but I've. > >Hi Bruce, >Can you program 1702A's? How about the similar National part 5203? Both are >256 Byte EPROM's. There was also a Motorola part, 6834(?). >-Dave >

26 years, 8 months

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EPROM issues, who can burn?

by edick＠idcomm.com

I agree on both points, but if the cable is not longer than a foot or so, it's likely to work fine. Certainly it's likely that one could figure out a better way, on a case-by-case basis, but I just wanted to throw a very general solution at the problem, one which everyone would easily understand. It won't be hard to improve on that one. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 3:11 PM Subject: Re: EPROM issues, who can burn? >> >> I agree, mostly, with what you've said here, Tony. The easy fix, in many >> cases will be to program the code into several larger but readily available >> and easily programmed parts, then wire an adapter from the target board's >> socket to the physical EPROM on the board on which the EPROM resides, with a >> pair of appropriately sized IDC ribbon cable headers crimped on the ends of >> the cable. That should work, even if you have to hang the adapter board > >I'd be a little careful about hanging lengths of ribbon cable off an >EPROM socket (the signals on which may well not be buffered). I am not >saying it won't work -- many times it will, but I'd not do it unless >necessary. > >Many times there's enough space around the EPROM socket and/or between >the boards in the cardcage to allow for a simpler replacement method. The >fact that most EPROM pinouts are similar helps here. Tricks include : > >1) Bending out those pins of the EPROM that are different (high-order >address lines, for example), plugging the rest into the socket and >soldering wires to the ones you've bent out > >2) Replacing the socket on the board with a wire-wrap socket. Wrap wires >around the pins that are different, and cut those pins short. Then solder >the remaining pins to the board so that the 'different' ones don't touch >the tracks (the socket is probably about 0.5" above the board). Solder >the ends of the wires to appropriate points. Insert the EPROM. > >3) Make an adapter. In the UK you can get pin strips designed to plug >into turned pin IC sockets. What I normally do is replace the EPROM >socket on the PCB with a turned-pin one of the same size. Then take a >piece of stripboard and solder a socket for the new EPROM to it (cutting >the tracks down the middle). Then solder pin strips to the track-side of >the stripboard with one spare hole between the socket pins and the pin >strips. Then cut tracks for the pins you don't want to connect straight, >and then solder wires (wire-wrap wire is good for this) on the track side >of the stripboard to make the necessary connections. Plug the adapter >into the socket on the PCB and plug the EPROM into the socket on the adapter. > >4) Ditto, but etch a PCB rather than using stripboard. > >5) Read the tech manual for the machine (!). It's not uncommon for >machines that use mask-programmed ROMs to have some way of using EPROMs >instead. There may be links for this on the board, for example. > >> from a hanger in the rack. Packaging problems are what the REAL engineers >> work hardest at, while the youngsters conjure up the fancy circuits. This >> is mostly a packaging problem. The higher speeds of today's common and >> cheap parts will compensate for the few nanoseconds lost in cables, even if >> some form of termination has to be introduced. > >I'd be more worried about the stray capacitance and noise pickup from the >ribbon cable than the delay it introduces. > >-tony >

26 years, 8 months

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EPROM issues, who can burn?

by edick＠idcomm.com

The reality of this quandary is that the answer lies not in the legality of copying the EPROMs, but in the likelihood of getting caught. Now, an EPROM burner for 2716's is DIRT SIMPLE to make, and the same goes for most of the 28-pin parts, and I might guess it's true of the 32-pin parts as well. The 1702's, 2708's, and others of that ilk (mainly due to the multiple power supplies) might cause minor problems. Those however, can be dealt with in a number of creative ways. 1) if the goal is to have an "authentic" system, one has to have the authentic EPROMs with the binary images in them. The spec's for programming pre-32-pin eproms were not kept secret. 2) if the goal is simply to have a working system, there are several ways to get around the ancient EPROM oddities. All of these involve wiring and maybe even soldering something. The easiest of them, however, is to build an adapter board with the binary images residing in battery backed rams intended for substitution for EPROMs, and a simple programmer for them for those situations when things go wrong. 3) Now comes the hard part . . . You have to choose. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 5:28 PM Subject: Re: EPROM issues, who can burn? >> > Ahhhhh... now THAT might get me around the copyright issues! Set it up >> > such that only the folks who own equipment that can use the images can get >> > to it... >> >> Well, certainly those folks would be entitled to a copy of what they >> have already, and it shouldn't be of much value to others. > >The time when that's not strictly true is when machines came with >optional EPROMs... > >The classic case is the BBC micro. It has 4 (IIRC) 'sideways ROM >sockets', one of which is normally filled by the BASIC ROM, and there are >add-on cards to provide more such sockets. > >Various companies (Acorn and others) sold software (disk filing systems >-- like DOSes, languages, applications, etc) in EPROMs to go into these >sockets. And while all BBC owners will have had the Acorn MOS (Machine >Operating System) ROM and BBC BASIC, the same is certainly not true of >all this other software. > >Practically, I suspect that a lot of this software is of little >commercial value today, but it is still copyrighted, and can't be just >stuck on a web site. > >-tony >

26 years, 8 months

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Vax 3100 Runs good (fwd)

by siconic＠jasmine.psyber.com

If interested, please reply directly to the original sender. Reply-to: nwhite(a)stern.nyu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:19:46 -0500 From: "Norman H. White" <nwhite(a)stern.nyu.edu> Subject: Vax 3100 Runs good I have a Vax 3100 workstation that still runs, I hate to trash it and am looking for somone to take it off my hands. It is running VMS 5.1 and has 3 internal 100MB hard drives, a CDROM, an external TK50 and a 1 gigabyte scsi drive. Interested? --- Sellam International Man of Intrique and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org

26 years, 8 months

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Amdek Color 1 monitor

by rolney＠thegrid.net

I have two Amdek Color 1 monitors and need a schematic diagram in order to service them. Can you help? Ron Olney rolney(a)thegrid.net

26 years, 8 months

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EPROM issues, who can burn?

by edick＠idcomm.com

I agree, mostly, with what you've said here, Tony. The easy fix, in many cases will be to program the code into several larger but readily available and easily programmed parts, then wire an adapter from the target board's socket to the physical EPROM on the board on which the EPROM resides, with a pair of appropriately sized IDC ribbon cable headers crimped on the ends of the cable. That should work, even if you have to hang the adapter board >from a hanger in the rack. Packaging problems are what the REAL engineers work hardest at, while the youngsters conjure up the fancy circuits. This is mostly a packaging problem. The higher speeds of today's common and cheap parts will compensate for the few nanoseconds lost in cables, even if some form of termination has to be introduced. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 1:50 PM Subject: Re: EPROM issues, who can burn? >> Thats simple, if emulation will make you happy, why stop at the eproms, >> just run one of the emulators for the whole system on your PC. My goal is > >Oh, come on, there's a heck of a difference between replacing an EPROM >with a more modern (and larger) one containing the same code and running >an emulator for the entire machine on a PC. Well, certainly to a hardware >hacker there's a difference :-) > >> to get old systems running at a low cost, and I think that means original >> or functional equivalent parts. > >Ah, but the modern/larger EPROM _is_ a functional equivalent part. > >Yes, obviously you use the original type of EPROM if at all possible. But >if you _can't_ get the part, then it makes a lot of sense to use (say) a >2764 with the same code in it. > >A secondary issue occurs when the original part was a mask-programmed >ROM. They can fail as well... Or you might want to make some changes to >the code. In that case you virtually have to use an EPROM and make an >adapter. > >> >> >> > >-tony >

26 years, 8 months

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RANT about ADAPTEC (was A sad day for DPT...)

by edick＠idcomm.com

I've got to disagree with the remark that "Adaptec stuff works." I participated in a year-long beta test of some of their CD authoring software four or five years back, and found, (1) they didn't care whether their doc's were synchronized with their software, often leaving out key words like "not" and equally key words and phrases, and (2) the happily made claims, both oral and written, which not only they, but anyone who understood the technology, knew were totally false and would not and could not be made true by technological innovation anytime soon. They happily ship software which can't possibly achieve what they claim to be routine. I remember that, shortly before the release of their PCI SCSI adapters, they claimed to be able to effect sustained transfers of 80MB/sec via their 2940. While I completely agreed that that was a theoretical figure, obtainable in bursts, perhaps, I challenged them to prepare a demo in which one of their 2940's effected data transfers both in and out of a PC at that rate, or even half that rate for a relatively short test, say 100 hours without losing data in vast quantity. The problem, of course, is that a claim of this sort is simply useless, since it assumes that the SCSI channel gets all the bandwidth and the rest of the system gets none. Keep in mind, BTW, that at that time, (1994-95) the PC was not looking at 133 MHz PCI rates. Adaptec, for years, shipped a series of ISA-Bus controllers, the 15xx series, which worked VERY well. Their BIOS was a mite weak, perhaps, but the things did work, day in and day out, and I still use them in my home-office Network Server. I've had one running for nearly eight years without a hitch in that box. The only problem I ever had with it was that the power supply failed. That was probably because their BIOS wasn't smart enough to spin the drives up one at a time as they presently do. The 450-watt PSU probably wasn't comfortable with all the load on +12 while they spun up. Once they went to PCI, their advertisement, always a mite "over the line" as far as I'm concerned, their claims being a little too good to be realistic, even in the days of the 1542. Once they determined that Trantor had a few good products, particularly in their firmware, and in their Parallel<=>SCSI port adapters, they bought them up. A couple of years back, I tested a number of these products, finding that, not only did their AHA358 fail in every test to equal their previous AHA348 (a Trantor design) but it failed in every way to match the performance they claimed. I look for them to buy up the BELKIN Parallel<=>SCSI before long, since it works so much better than their own. It gets better performance on my Toshiba notebook than their PC-card (AHA1460) does and holds its own in the WINBOOK. When ADAPTEC found that NCR/Symbios was producing cheaper PCI adapters, not to mention lots of ISA versions, they quickly bought them up. Now all that remained was the RAID market and you see what they've done there. I guess the only thing to do is buy shares in MYLEX. When NT4 was released, ADAPTEC didn't have NT drivers for their multi-port PCI boards. They claimed to have RAID support, but had no NT Drivers for their 3940 (dial-port) or 398x (triple-port) boards. After a while, a driver popped up for the 3940, but I still haven't managed to get mine to work properly in a fully loaded box. It does work (mostly) in a meagerly equipped system like a server, though, so that's fine. I don't worry about the 398x series any more. Observation has taught me that their tech support is intended to "get rid of" customer complaints, not to rectify them and it's also taught me to monitor on-line refunds from them VERY closely. They still owe me for a defectively designed device I returned to them back in '95 and the freight, which was charged to me. <end of RANT> ...sigh... Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 12:51 PM Subject: Re: A sad day for DPT... >> While not directly related to classic computing, I know a lot of us use >>more modern systems for numerous duties, and I know I can't be the only one >>using DPT's 'legacy' products from the early 90's. Anyone care to wager >>what Adaptec will do to DPT's well-stocked FTP site, or their support of >>said legacy gear? > >Go to the front of the ftp and select download site. Wait to find out what >will happen at your own peril. > >BTW Adaptec is certainly interested in profit, but they otherwise seem a >far cry from MS, Adaptec stuff works. > >

26 years, 8 months

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Apple ][ + but no Floppies

by rhudson＠ix.netcom.com

On 10/31/99 18:35:52 you wrote: >Most likely a generous soul will step forward and offer a set for postage. >I hope to one day have all my stuff set up so that i could easily answer >just such a request myself. I wonder if any of those disks (system esp.) and manual are copyright and if Apple cares. Anyone know if Apple still can provide? > >OTOH you know a lot of the old software doesn't need another floppy with >DOS etc. on it to run. You boot from the "game" disc and its all on that >disc. The system discs are for utilities, formatting new floppies, etc. I have found 1 game disk that will boot the machine and play several "Racing" games but I also don't have paddles (pinouts and parts anyone???) aren't paddles just 100ohm pots? I want to do some programming in BASIC on a simpler machine than my laptop. I have an emulator too is there a way to copy the images from the emulator to the real machine? Thanks all! ron

26 years, 8 months

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Northstar Horizon

by edick＠idcomm.com

There certainly were a few vendors whose systems were as much off-center as the N*. Just take a look at Vector Graphics' systems, for example. I once owned a couple of those, with their memory-mapped video refresh memory. They were another box which didn't have enough TPA to run the output generated from, say, the MT+ Pascal compiler in a unit with a contiguous 64k RAM. As I wrote before, the problems went away with the later releases of various compilers, but while prejudices are easy to acquire, they're difficult to eliminate. N* had their own version of a DOS, IIRC, and perhaps that's what made their management believe they didn't need to offer an efficient and CP/M-compatible product. Myself, I could never recommend a system which didn't read/write the standard distribution media for is native OS. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 8:51 PM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon ><Well . . . here we go . . . the fact that N* memory mapped their FDC was on ><thing that clearly would fall in the MISTAKE category. What the reason fo ><the existence of the smaller TPA resulting from memory mapping anything is > >the TPA bit was something I could care less about. The memory mapped >design was functional, not pretty. Of course the first controller I'd >built was IOmapped not for more space but because it was easier to decode >8bits rather than 16. Was it the right way for them, not really but it >worked. there were plenty of other memory mapped designs that were not >nearly as nice. It's the way it was right or wrong. So happens I have >two and one replaced my altair. It was a damm sight better and reliable >depite two lightiing hits. The only design fault I sought to fix was >the lack of storage denisty, 80k per drive was far from enough. The later >controller and software was an improvement but hard sector was a problem >as it was not even remotely portable. The processor card and the IO on >the backplane was however very nicely done. Like many I used third party >ram mostly because I'd alreay had 32k of SEALS 8k static from the altair. >I still do not ahve NS* ram for the odler box, I'd put in a Compupro >Ram-16 back in '84 to get rid of the six 8k static and a 16k static. >Such is the evolution of just one system. > ><of no relevance. It was a justification for SOME of us, me included, to ><draw a line through their products whenever they appeared in a list. Of ><course their price would have been another. > >It was their price that made them attractive. Least on the east coast. >Some systems like CCS I'd never seen until a few years ago. Others were >a bit rich price wise or questionable vendors. > >Allison >

26 years, 8 months

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My new toys: Apollo and Osborne 1

by wrm＠ccii.co.za

red bear said: >> (tony said) >> >> I know that some cards will work in both the Apollo and normal PCs.. > >Tony, you've hit the nail on the head. The Apollo ISA bus is a real ISA >bus. Oh frabjous day! :-) >However, most ISA cards will not work in the machine for one of a number >of reasons: *snip* ROM incompatibility, *snip* OS support, > >Theoretically it would be possible to make any arbitrary ISA card work in >an Apollo if one were to write his own device drivers and software to use >that driver. This driver would have to use no calls at all to the BIOS Ingo Cyliax built a 68030 workstation, and he wrote the drivers for (a specific) VGA and IDE. Also, Linux has drivers for PC cards, and doesn't use the ROMS. That's why I asked if it would be sacrilige for me to rip out (and keep safely, of course) the drives and display cards, etc. I've since learned that the BIOS contains a monitor, so no hassles there. Of course, the first thing I did (before powering up the machine) was to copy the EPROMS (27256 for 3000, 27512 for 3500). I'll put it up for ftp sometime. (My ftp philosophy is, if the owner complains, I'll take it down immediately) >The /ASE has floppy, ESDI, and SCSI interfaces. Don't expect to be able to >boot the Apollo from a SCSI disk, or even to use one at all unless you are The FAQ sez that the SCSI interface doesn't support disks at all. But I hope to boot from the tape... I mean, I don't have any floppies, 'smatter fact, the "server" (3500) has the tape and the "workstation" has the floppy. W

26 years, 8 months

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My new toys: Apollo and Osborne 1

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

Wouter de Waal wrote: >The 3500 has the following: > >9988 rev 3 memory card (no idea of it's size) >3com ethernet card >9016 (RGB video adaptor) >WD7000 scsi/hdd controller The WD7000 is an ESDI controller >tape drive >unknown > >Unfortunately I don't have the RGB cable or the monitor. > >Questions: > >* Can I use the mono display adaptor in the 3500? Can I run one > of these boxen without a display card, or do they check like > peecees? > >* How ISA compatible is the ISA bus? Can I stick a VGA card in > there and expect it to work (OK, I know I'll have to write > the code (port the VGA BIOS) but I mean electrically? Or > an IDE controller? > The bus is completely incompatible with the PC ISA bus. Nothing is likely to work. >* Where can I find memory maps, circuit diagrams, whatever? > >* How rare are these beasts? I gather they're common? Any > objections to me ripping out all the cards and the boot > rom, sticking vmebug in the socket, and an IDE drive in > the bay, and playing with the thing? > I have one I found complete in a dumpster. There were many color monitors with it but I only took one because they are so huge. It didn't have a monitor cable with it but I have one from a Decstation that works OK. They run a unique OS called Domain which I don't have. Mine has a 300meg ESDI drive and a tape drive. I've had mine up as far as looking for something to boot from. Hans

26 years, 8 months

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A sad day for DPT...

by edick＠idcomm.com

It won't be long before it comes down to MYLEX, whose raid products work, and ADAPTEC, whose raid products don't. Of course, the DPT controllers worked and that didn't keep adaptec from buying them up, and Symbios/NCR controllers worked fine, yet ADAPTEC bought them up. Wouldn't it be cheaper for ADAPTEC to make products that work instead up buying the companies that do that? Once upon a time, ADAPTEC made really good products. I know, I have some of them still working, e.g. 1542A boards, 1522, 1510's. All my 2940's are broken, and my 3940 only "sorta" works. Now, I set up DPT and MYLEX raid interface hardware at my ISP a couple of years back, and it hasn't hiccupped even once. That's half a dozen servers with a combined storage volume of over a TB, all RAID-5 . . . Too bad . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane <bruce.a.lane(a)boeing.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 10:46 AM Subject: A sad day for DPT... > Heck, a sad day for storage overall! Adaptec has swallowed up yet another >customer-friendly SCSI adapter maker. See: > >http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-1425979.html?tag=st.ne.1002.thed.1003- 2 >00-1425979 > > While not directly related to classic computing, I know a lot of us use >more modern systems for numerous duties, and I know I can't be the only one >using DPT's 'legacy' products from the early 90's. Anyone care to wager >what Adaptec will do to DPT's well-stocked FTP site, or their support of >said legacy gear? > > Adaptec, from what I can see, is getting dangerously close to turning into >the Micro$haft of the SCSI adapter world. > > (Kai, if you're reading this... I'm sorry. I know you work for MS, and I >want you to know that I don't hold it against you in any way, but I think >everyone on the list knows how I feel about Billy-boy and his Evil Empire). > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >NOTE: The views expressed are mine alone, and do NOT necessarily represent >the views of the Boeing Company, its management or employees. >Bruce Lane, Boeing Aircraft & Missiles, PWSSG Computing >DC Campus, 9-98.2, Col. N11 (206) 655-8996 >laneb(a)bcstec.ca.boeing.com OR http://bcstec.ca.boeing.com/~laneb >

26 years, 8 months

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