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LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<That's life. I *really* find it hard to understand why scrapping a Vax <11/780 would break your heart when there are probably at least 100,000 lef <in mills out there... and no one wants them! As a collector I'd think you'd at least know the numbers produced and the current population. 11/780s have actually become quite scarce being 20 years old, slow by even microvax standards and power hungry. I'd bet finding more than one or two would be less than easy. The question is, do you know if it's common or scarce? Allison

26 years, 7 months

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Your message to ClassicCmp

by spicer＠computerhistory.org

At 06:07 PM 11/24/99 -0500, you wrote: >It is possible that something happened prior to your tenure... I can think >of one report which has been much discussed at times on the alt.sys.pdp10 >newsgroup -- the dismantling of the pdp-6 gifted to the computer museum >by Stanford. Since you are in a position to know... did this in fact >happen? The reports have the flip chips from the machine being sold >as trinkets. Hi Megan, My understanding of this issue is that the PDP-6 modules sold at the Museum store were found in boxes in a DEC warehouse. At the same time, TCM removed a piece of the '6 from display, leading folks to conflate the two events, inferring that the pieces being sold were from the one on the floor. The PDP-6 in question is coming back to the History Center by December 20 (this year) as part of a.donation by Compaq which is clearing out a little-known warehouse TCM used for deep storage. I hope you will find this explanation satisfactory and that we can put this issue behind us. I apologize on behalf of the Museum and History Center that we perhaps did not communicate well with you and other enthusiasts about the machine in question. It took some time to reconsruct an event from a long time ago. If you have specific concerns about other machines, please let me know. I am eager to address cogent criticisms of TCM (the past) or the History Center (the present & future) at any time and to work with you all in advancing the state of the art in computer preservation--we have many unique problems that are fascinating to think about and solve, ones that everyone can contribute to remedying. [snip: re visiting the west coast] >>2. Get involved! The Center belongs to the community that supports it >> and we have dozens of important tasks (both real and virtual) that >> need to be done and that can draw on the talents of everyone. Drop me >> a line if you're interested. > >Great if you happen to live nearby... but what can one do from the >east coast to help? Plenty! We have many "virtual volunteer" opportunities. One of the greatest needs is to transcribe computer history lecture for the web. This is of tremendous use to scholars because it is a searchable version of the lectures we hold with some of the computer industry's most important contributors. Past speakers have included: Bob Noyce, Jay Forrester, Grace Hopper, Doug Engelbart, Maurice Wilkes, Seymour Cray--an amazing list that covers 20 years of computer history! For a typical transcript, have a look at: http://www.computerhistory.org/events/sage_05191998/index.page Also, these transcripts are soon to be supplemented by RealVideo/RealAudio/MP3 media streams of the lecture. We have posted Godron Moore's lecture from last month on-line as an example: http://www.technetcast.com/tnc_program.html?program_id=54 Might this appeal? >>3. Visit our website (www.computerhistory.org) and offer suggestions or >> curate a virtual exhibit! Our site receives well over 2 million hits >> a month--what a way to get the word out about computer history! > >I like that idea... what if your site linked to the private sites of >numerous collectors (take a look at my own site, for example). We hope to have a "Links" page within the next 60 days. >>4. Have your own sites linked to (or even archived) by the Center as a >> way of bringing attention to your specific area of interest. > >You're ahead of me... what do you mean by archived? I would think that >private sites would be kept up by the owner... One of the concerns we have at the Center is that while there are superb computer history sites out there run by individuals, there is no institutional architecture for ensuring that they can continue past the sponsor's lifetime or (much more likely) even five years. As you know, some of these sites are simply superb and irreplaceable resources whose loss would be gravely felt. If we take the geological timescale into account (50 years for computers!), there is a real concern that such wonderful resources might no longer be maintained after some finite amount of time. I think you'll agree this is a pretty reasonable conclusion. Consequently, the Center would like to host (perhaps 'park' is a better word? -- since we would have no content oversight whatsoever) high quality sites in computer history allowing these sites to make use of the Center's stable infrastructure (including regular backups, &c.) We haven't worked all the details yet--for example, how to handle updates and so on. If anyone on the list would like to serve as a test case, please contact me and we can experiment! > >Thanks for taking the time to write to the list... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer All the best Megan--thanks for caring! d. -- Dag Spicer Curator & Manager of Historical Collections Editorial Board, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing The Computer Museum History Center Building T12-A NASA Ames Research Center Mountain View, CA 94035 Tel: +1 650 604 2578 Fax: +1 650 604 2594 E-m: spicer(a)computerhistory.org WWW: http://www.computerhistory.org <spicer(a)computerhistory.org> PGP: 15E31235 (E6ECDF74 349D1667 260759AD 7D04C178) S/V 516T Read about The Computer Museum History Center in the November issue of WIRED magazine! See "The Computer Hall of Fame - Modern Art." pp. 276 - 299.

26 years, 7 months

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LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt <cfandt(a)netsync.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 12:18 PM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) >Upon the date 10:47 AM 11/25/99 -0500, Allison J Parent said something like: >><That's life. I *really* find it hard to understand why scrapping a Vax >><11/780 would break your heart when there are probably at least 100,000 lef >><in mills out there... and no one wants them! >> >>As a collector I'd think you'd at least know the numbers produced and the >>current population. 11/780s have actually become quite scarce being 20 >>years old, slow by even microvax standards and power hungry. I'd bet >>finding more than one or two would be less than easy. >> >>The question is, do you know if it's common or scarce? >> >>Allison > >Allison has hit right on the mark in reply to your suggestion there's 100k >or so 11/780's still out there, John B. How can you say there are that many >when we hear of only even a few more recent vintage 11/750's coming >available for example?? I would wager 750's had been more common in their >day than 780's were for various reasons. Were there even 100k 11/750's made??? > >We've got quite a few sets of eyes and ears sensitive to looking for minis >on this list, not just micros --including folks with close connections to >scrappers-- and there are relatively few alerts raised as to 780 or 750 >(and other big iron mini) availabilities vs. your contention many types are >common. > Obviously not, If you have eyes and ears out then your home, storage, family relative homes , local school, and probably a few hundred thousand square feet of local storage would be filled *right now* with large minis... Let me tell you what was available *this* month: Ketchikan Pulp and Paper Ketchikan AK, USA Rack fulls of Accuray electronics containing Honeywell? minis. At least 32 cabinets of electronics (over 10,000 pounds). You must take them all and go through the liquidator. (This site has probably been chopped up already). Thorold Pulp and Paper Thorold, Ontario 4 old mills are being scrapped. 8 Honeywell Minis and PDP-11/05s are there. Well over 30 cabinets of electronics holding the minis. You *must* take everything. I know the stuff is still there. and I am taking them for the Honeywell 316s.. Needless to say I am shredding 28 bays of electronics. Simpson Paper Company Eureka CA, USA Again entire mills with *massive* amounts of minis. These guys use minis for industrial control... Don't know if they are still there... not going to fly out and find out.. May have been junked already. That is about 30,000 pounds of just industrial control minis available JUST in the pulp and paper industry available right now!. That does not include all the administrative systems, labelling minis, etc...... As ACCURAY is the standard for paper mill systems you can expect 1 mini/mill + 1 backup mini/mill (depending on age it gets worse)... and you have *one* basement full of minis??? and no calls for minis lately??? I won't even try and list the number of steel mills upgrading right now (in Ontario) or the number of them scrapping their minis.... I can pull 10-15 minis/year out of the steel sector in Ontario alone/year. You can also expect *most* sectors to upgrade their systems every 5 years and store the stuff until they have time to get rid of it... The *small* factory I am going into to pull these out have owned well over 30 minis over the last 25 years... multiply that by the number of steel mills in Ontario and you get an idea what I am talking about. WHY AM I GOING INTO THESE PLACES??? Sometimes I get lucky and find an old 1960's mini that was never thrown out, sitting in storage. It happens more often than you think. I will now be flying out to some mills to look for the old minis as the value has increased enough to do so. I have throw out/passed up over the past 7 years: IBM1130 - E.L. Crossley High School. refused IBM1401 [boat manufacturer] (won't refuse those anymore) Vax 11/730s (2) Honeywell 316s (5) [paper mills] - thre out another one this spring.. running. PDP-11/40s (3) -- just awful minis. PDP-8e (at least 2), PDP-8L, PDP-8Ms, as, etc... (won't throw these out anymore either) IBM System 32s (school boards used them.. tossed them out) MAI Basic 4 (Hydro upgraded and got rid of them.. 1 per CITY!) refused 3 Vax 11/780s this year PDP-11/70s (too many to list - Pennington Clothes, Hayes Dana, Ontario Asset Disposal, and others I can't recall right now) PDP-11/05s (every paper mill with accuray has at least 6 of them) .........and just too many others to recall... Some of these were at auctions... not including the ones I got calls about but refused. >Case in point: at present I have up for adoption a VAX 11/750 which is the >first one of these in months that I really recall seeing available. A They commonly get sent to the shredder.. Even PDP-11 enthusiasts don't want them due to their size and power requirements. Most Metlabs have them and have been tossing them over the past 3-5 years. Microvaxes are a lot more *spouse* friendly but if you notice they don't even fetch more than $300 each/system on EBay. Hence, most people will see that and decide not to pick them up in the first place. >fellow presently is interested but timing and distance for him to come get >it is presently an issue and storage co$ts related to it are becoming an >issue for me. I do *not* want to scrap it and part it out as it was a >*running* system when I bought it amongst a truckload of other DEC gear. >I'm a preservationist and really want to see it go to a collector who can >have a running system. However, I'm off the beaten path for big iron >collectors to readily come for it and there is a risk nobody can get it >whole. Therefore there's a risk that a big iron VAX may die as a system. > I don't like to see that either.. but there is only so many minis one person can hold. >With that, it makes me seem like the "heartless" type who would scrap a >working machine just to make room around here and I *don't* like that >feeling one bit. Then I recall with shivers up my spine that if I had not >discovered the availability of the truckload of DEC gear I bought, the >original owner who had it would have proceeded to call a trash hauling >company the next day to take it all away so he could clear out his >ex-company office ASAP and fly back to his home in California. So at least >I am able to have offered it plus other surplus DEC gear to everybody here >plus save out a big batch of stuff which gives me a rather decent DEC >collection. > >Yeah, well I see John B's point in simply scrapping a machine to a >_limited_ extent. In my mind that doesn't quite forgive unilaterally >deciding to scrap a collectable machine, or even a more modern interesting >machine like the Fujitsu, just because "they are common" or "too big", etc. >Just let us know and and encourage us to pass the word around. There may be >potential computer homes out there we don't know of. But if not, at least >the thing has been given a chance to live. > I plan to do that. That's why I am posting the info here. >I guess collectors have to try to keep doing the best they can in spite of >logistics . . . > >Regards, Chris >-- -- >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ >

26 years, 7 months

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Grrrrrr

by aek＠spies.com

"Most collectors want: The first computer they ever touched (that's where I come in) An old transistor mini Maybe a PDP-8/11.... Most others aren't worth the cost of shipping. " Fine, but if you scrap a machine, try to at least get the documentation and software to someone that can use it. Many times these items are separatated >from the computers as they're being disposed of. These items are much smaller and are also practical to ship, and are vital to restoring the other machines around the world that haven't been parted out.

26 years, 7 months

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LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Merle K. Peirce <at258(a)osfn.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 11:42 AM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE > > >On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, John Foust wrote: > >> We should be thankful we collect things that fit in rooms. The farmer >> across the road collects tractors. I think he's got 20 or so filling >> his pole shed, packed as tight as sardines. > >I know some fellows that collect Mack trucks. they bought a factory to store >the unrestored ones, and filled in the empty space with flathead V- Ford >trucks. Compared to that sort of thing, those big Vaxes don't seem that >big. After all, to a large degree things are relative. A Universe or a >Dual is large compared to ZX-81, but small compared to a PDP-9. Computer equipment *must* be stored without moisture and be maintained at a certain tempature to retain any kind of value at all. I can't sell rusted boards... Climate control, dehumidifiers are expensive in large factories.. (if not impossible). Mack Trucks have a much higher resale value than any 10 Vaxes together I know... It's also relative to *what* it is... john > >M. K. >Peirce Rhode Island >Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > >

26 years, 7 months

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LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 10:51 AM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) ><That's life. I *really* find it hard to understand why scrapping a Vax ><11/780 would break your heart when there are probably at least 100,000 lef ><in mills out there... and no one wants them! > >As a collector I'd think you'd at least know the numbers produced and the >current population. 11/780s have actually become quite scarce being 20 >years old, slow by even microvax standards and power hungry. I'd bet >finding more than one or two would be less than easy. > >The question is, do you know if it's common or scarce? > That's easy Allison. I have refused three Vax 11/780s this year so far the went to the shredder... I don't know how many more in the spring I refused as I was not taking any more systems from factories/liquidators[ things were slow]. Now that I have a site on the Internet and a presense on this list.. I have a pile of wish lists, requests, orders, etc... and I now have 1 person out of a few hundred that is willing to purchase 1 Vax 11/780 *just* over my scrap cost. *All* the others aren't interested. No one else wants them... and many factories kept them in *stores* when they were finsihed with them as most don't bother even scrapping the stuff. I generally figure out current population by the number of requests I get to pick up a model of a mini. Also, I look at what the collector community is looking for. Further, I have yet to find a Museum even willing to pay a *scrap* price for such a unit (let's not even talk about shipping costs). BTW: This company has put a request to their board for $1.7 Million to remove all the rest of the minis by spring and replace them with an NT system. I will no doubt be getting a call to pick up more Vaxes (already saw 2 11/750s - Uggggggh), a Mentor mini (business basic running inventory), and a pile of other minis I have not seen yet. I do know I will be getting a pile of ASR-33s... no idea why they held onto them. If you have items you are seriously looking for please-mail me. I won't be dragging everything to the shop. john >Allison > >

26 years, 7 months

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Saving old documentation

by mbg＠world.std.com

> >> "PDP-10 Processor Handbook", dated 1970 and describing the KA10; > >> "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook", same vintage, describing monitor > utilities and such; > >> "DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Programming", dated 1972 (? unsure, > and the book isn't here with me right now), describing KA10 and > KI10 and some programming utilities (MACRO, DDT, Loader, etc.) > >These are all phonebook-style manuals, printed on newsprint, and are all >beginning to fall apart - the paper has turned yellow/brown, and some of >the pages are starting to crumble like dry leaves. I have exactly the same books... >Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least, >have their disintegration slowed down)? I'm inclined to try to scan them >in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would >require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books >immediately. Can anyone suggest any other preservation methods? Thanks for asking this... I'm interested in the answer as well... I also think that they would be destroyed by the attempt to scan. So the question becomes, Are you attempting to preserve the actual documentation, or the information contained within... I'm not sure which direction to go myself... but at least in one or two cases of the above (and other -10 manuals), I have a copy which *could* be damaged to scan it in if I were to decide to do it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 7 months

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Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers andTOPS10???

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney <af-list(a)is1.wfi-inc.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 7:02 PM Subject: Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers andTOPS10??? > > >On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > >> At 03:31 PM 11/24/99 -0500, John B wrote: >> >Don't Grrr me guy! If I even tried to keep every mini I get every month my >> >wife would divorce me or we would go broke on storage costs. >> >> Well there is a difference between scrapping it and offering it to someone >> on the list who might be willing to take it whole and keep it running. I >> suspect that was what the "grrrring" was about. Its even ok to say, "This >> is what I think I can get from 'ebay souvenirs" and if anyone wants to >> match it they get first dibs." >> >> This crowd is partial to keeping things running, > >To be fair, many of us don't even get one substantial mini a *year*, let >alone one (or several!) per month! I am at what appears to be the lower >end of the collecting-voracity continuum (at least for this group!), and I >still have trouble finding places to put all my stuff. And my wife is >constantly at the brink of "fed-up" with my pitiful little lot and >day-long roadtrips to pick up more "junk." > >Additionally, it's a lot of work to negotiate the pickup/delivery of >large, heavy, difficult-to-ship things as well. Not everyone has the time >and energy to do that...even as a labor of love. > >I applaud John for the work he puts into the restoration of the systems he >does keep and for the time and effort he puts into sharing it with others >(great web page). He obviously has an interest in classic computers that >goes beyond how much gold or aluminum is contained within. > > Thanks Aaron. I will continue to post lists of boards and minis as I get them in the hope people here can restore a unit they might have. >Aaron > >

26 years, 7 months

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LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Rodrigo Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 5:32 AM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) >>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> writes: > > Richard> This is starting to resemble an argument for putting > Richard> things on eBay before scrapping them. If they're > Richard> priceless, then someone will at least attempt to buy them > Richard> for somewhat less than that implies. > > The "priceless" stuff was an illustrating metaphor. I didn't >say minis are priceless. Usually the "price" of a good is determined >by the demand/offer situation of the market. Minis are cheap because >the demand is so low: isolated collectors, when they have space to >store it. These collective market is so dispersed that does not affect >the market prices. Ya right, I look a leave of absence so I can go out and buy minis for 2 cents a pound and resell them for 5 cents a pound??? Quite a few more people want minis than you think, at least the older ones ('60s) that they first touched... and it is not uncommon to get $20,000 or more for such a unit (depending of course on the number of them left). The collective market greatly influences the prices of such minis... and bidding usually occurs. Yes, a Vax 11/780 will get you a scrap metal price... an IBM1401 (unrestored) will fetch an easy $20,000 (a lot more if you put the word out). I restore them and ship them running with software and docs, the value goes up a lot more than that. > > But smart scrappers can be smart enought to bargain higher >prices, when they are certain they are facing collectors. Take for >instance antiques: they are expensive just because of the high demand, >it's fashionable to have antiques. And who knows, sometime in the >future, a VAX board becomes an expensive antique... In fact, some >computing stuff is almost "priceless", for instance, ENIAC >boards. Would you scrap an originl ENIAC the way you scrap Fujitsu >minis? No you would not, unless you were brainless... Any computer as You can't compare Fujitsu to ENIAC.. The Fujitsu is *not* an original... There are probably at least 10,000 of those *originals*. >old as the ENIAC is a priceless asset to any museum! Right? > > Right, and those are the kinds of systems I am aiming for (well, I won't get an ENIAC.. but UNIVACs can still be found). > Richard> If nobody wants 'em badly enough to pay the packing, > Richard> shipping, and associated costs, plus the scrap value > Richard> then, since it's too late to leave 'em inthe scrapyard, > Richard> they need to be disposed of in some way, don't they? > > Yes indeed. It's not trivial to ship huge minis across the >world. That's one reason why these mailing lists exist: e.g. to >announce the availability of certain stuff in certain areas. I'd love >to have a PDP or a VAX, but I know that's virtually impossible unless >they appear in Lisbon/portugal area... > > Cheers, > > >-- > >*** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt> >*** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda >*** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: >*** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa >*** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL >*** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 >

26 years, 7 months

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Grrrrrr

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 3:45 AM Subject: Grrrrrr >>> Grrrrrr. >> >>I agree with you, Dave- it seems that recently there's been a surge of >>"this or that computer is junk, it's only worth scrap for metals content. >>I'll enjoy scrapping this one" As I recall, indiscriminate bashing of any > >This is an iceberg kind of thing, 90%+ of old computers are going to the >shredders, or just as bad sitting in some deteriorating environment. 90% of >the rest is getting dismantled for parts, and only a tiny number are being >kept "operational". > >My attitude is that you can love the forest, and still build a wooden house >with a fireplace. > >The way to save old systems is to hunt them down and buy them. Offer 7 >cents a pound and you might win every scrap bid in the country. Want to >stop a system from being scrapped, three words are all it takes, "I'll buy >it". > > You got it. That's why I am listing what I am getting here so people *have* an opportunity to get something they would probably never find. I just hope I don't have the same bad experiences local companies/scrappers have had with hobbyists in the past. Bottom line... if you want a Vax 11/780 you'd better be willing to shell out the money to have it professionally shipped or pick it up with a *real* truck. >

26 years, 7 months

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Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers andTOPS10???

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Enrico Badella <enrico.badella(a)softstar.it> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 3:15 AM Subject: Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers andTOPS10??? > >Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: >> >> To be fair, many of us don't even get one substantial mini a *year*, let >> alone one (or several!) per month! I am at what appears to be the lower >> end of the collecting-voracity continuum (at least for this group!), and I > >In Italy it is even worst. Companies prefer scrapping than giving to >hobbyists. All you can find are shitty 386 junk Same thing here.. And do you want to know why???? They are tired of hobbyists wanting to know *everything* about the unit they are about to buy.. and then if they finally do decide to buy it most show up in a mini van! Further, companies want a Comp. number so they are not responsible if I get hurt on the premesis. The last thing in the world companies want to deal with is a hobbyists... they want someone to come in, bid on weight, and pick up the load professionally and quickly. No grief.. > >e. > >======================================================================== >Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella(a)softstar.it >Soft*Star srl eb(a)vax.cnuce.cnr.it >InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 >Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 >10143 Torino, Italy > > Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, > manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals >========================================================================== >

26 years, 7 months

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LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Rodrigo Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 3:57 AM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) > > You sound like someone who burns paintings just because you >don't have space to store them, regardless from being priceless >Picasso's... It's not very hard to understand the following facts: > - the majority of this list subscribers are collectors, which >means that they like collecting certain stuff. Picasso didn't have 40,000 people making 1,000,000 of the same painting. Also, I am sure you are I could not go out and save *every* "$19.95 CHEAP OIL PAINTING LIQUIDATOR" work. Yes, I would burn paintings if I was offered more than I could handle. It's only common sense. You buy the lot for the valuable material. > - everyone understands the difference between "storing" and >"collecting". It's impossible to prevent all minis from the planet >from being destroyed -- store all obsolete minis. However, collectors >are available to save a necessarily small percentage from destruction, >by collecting them. They do this because they *love* it. It's not possible. I don't think anyone owns a country bid enough to store them. We are talking about millions of Vaxes, PCs, DGs, etc... > - the average storage capacity of collectors is usually not >very high. Not everyone is able to own a VAX, and those who are, can't >hold more than 1-2 of such machines. Now compare this storage capacity >with the rate you get minis (you said about 40-50 a year). > - you can't expect to come here saying "I crush 40 minis a >year" without people becoming upset. I guess it breaks the heart of >every collector (at least it breaks mine...). That's life. I *really* find it hard to understand why scrapping a Vax 11/780 would break your heart when there are probably at least 100,000 left in mills out there... and no one wants them! > > Cheers, > > >-- > >*** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt> >*** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda >*** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: >*** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa >*** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL >*** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 >

26 years, 7 months

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LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)

by yoda＠isr.ist.utl.pt

>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> writes: Richard> This is starting to resemble an argument for putting Richard> things on eBay before scrapping them. If they're Richard> priceless, then someone will at least attempt to buy them Richard> for somewhat less than that implies. The "priceless" stuff was an illustrating metaphor. I didn't say minis are priceless. Usually the "price" of a good is determined by the demand/offer situation of the market. Minis are cheap because the demand is so low: isolated collectors, when they have space to store it. These collective market is so dispersed that does not affect the market prices. But smart scrappers can be smart enought to bargain higher prices, when they are certain they are facing collectors. Take for instance antiques: they are expensive just because of the high demand, it's fashionable to have antiques. And who knows, sometime in the future, a VAX board becomes an expensive antique... In fact, some computing stuff is almost "priceless", for instance, ENIAC boards. Would you scrap an originl ENIAC the way you scrap Fujitsu minis? No you would not, unless you were brainless... Any computer as old as the ENIAC is a priceless asset to any museum! Right? Richard> If nobody wants 'em badly enough to pay the packing, Richard> shipping, and associated costs, plus the scrap value Richard> then, since it's too late to leave 'em inthe scrapyard, Richard> they need to be disposed of in some way, don't they? Yes indeed. It's not trivial to ship huge minis across the world. That's one reason why these mailing lists exist: e.g. to announce the availability of certain stuff in certain areas. I'd love to have a PDP or a VAX, but I know that's virtually impossible unless they appear in Lisbon/portugal area... Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt> *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585

26 years, 7 months

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Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

I told a factory I did not want this stuff last year (I forgot about this PDP-10). It seems they never got around to scrapping it and the scrapper out of Georgia never picked it up. I got a call just now to see if I want the load for .. (well $$). I don't know if the PDP-10 is still in it... They wrapped the cases in cardboard and moved them to *stores*. I was told that there are at least 18 6' computer racks,, the only ones that the guy on the phone could get at said: Vax 6000 SA600 ??? (what's that?) RK05 (or 7) TU81 Some Fujitsu junk. I know they paid 5 million for the Fujitsu 7 years ago. Anyone here know what a SA600 is? As for the systems, I will probably scrap the Vax6000 (for EBay souvenirs). I saw one of the Fujitsu boards last year.... nice... most of the chips had heat sinks on them (ram board).. and they were huge.. Again too new and too big to deal with.. I'll get what gold I can out of it. The PDP-10 is the only thing worth restoring (if it's still in there). Will update everyone by the end of the week. john

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LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)

by yoda＠isr.ist.utl.pt

You sound like someone who burns paintings just because you don't have space to store them, regardless from being priceless Picasso's... It's not very hard to understand the following facts: - the majority of this list subscribers are collectors, which means that they like collecting certain stuff. - everyone understands the difference between "storing" and "collecting". It's impossible to prevent all minis from the planet >from being destroyed -- store all obsolete minis. However, collectors are available to save a necessarily small percentage from destruction, by collecting them. They do this because they *love* it. - the average storage capacity of collectors is usually not very high. Not everyone is able to own a VAX, and those who are, can't hold more than 1-2 of such machines. Now compare this storage capacity with the rate you get minis (you said about 40-50 a year). - you can't expect to come here saying "I crush 40 minis a year" without people becoming upset. I guess it breaks the heart of every collector (at least it breaks mine...). Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt> *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585

26 years, 7 months

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Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire <mcguire(a)neurotica.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10??? >On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, John B wrote: >>I was told that there are at least 18 6' computer racks,, the only ones that >>the guy on the phone could get at said: >> >>Vax 6000 >>SA600 ??? (what's that?) >>RK05 (or 7) >>TU81 >>Some Fujitsu junk. >> >>I know they paid 5 million for the Fujitsu 7 years ago. > > ...likely not junk. They make some kickass supers. I wonder if that system >is complete. It is complete. I saw it in the computer room when they had it running (I bought the system it replaced a few years ago!). I know the computer ran fast and had *loads* of memory. The problem they had was their own employees did not like using it. They ran it less than 4 years. > >>Anyone here know what a SA600 is? > > It's a rack full of RA-series drives. > Ahhh, I should have remembered that! , thanks... I guess more weight :-( .. This Vax 6000 was in the lab so it had quite a few toys hooked up to it (hopefully some good boards to rip out of it). >>As for the systems, I will probably scrap the Vax6000 (for EBay souvenirs). >> >>I saw one of the Fujitsu boards last year.... nice... most of the chips had >>heat sinks on them (ram board).. and they were huge.. Again too new and too >>big to deal with.. I'll get what gold I can out of it. > > Grrrrrr. > Don't Grrr me guy! If I even tried to keep every mini I get every month my wife would divorce me or we would go broke on storage costs. I hope someone out there can use the boards in their minis.... > -Dave McGuire >

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The Computer Museum History Center Collections Policy

by mbg＠world.std.com

>The Computer Museum seemed to engender a remarkable amount of ill feeling >in the East, not alleviated by the flight of the collection from Boston. >Daq is the beneficiary of that great reservoir of suspicion and distrust. >He certainly has his work cut out for him, but being forthcoming and >addressing these concerns could go a long way towards settling them. I would suggest that the move from boston cannot expect to have reduced any ill feeling but increased it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

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Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???

by ndiablo＠diablonet.net

Wow; sounds like quite a nice load :) I think the SA600 is a rather largish disk rack sort of thing that housed a number of RA8x (?) drives... -Sean Caron (root(a)diablonet.net)

26 years, 7 months

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The Computer Museum History Center Collections Policy

by spicer＠computerhistory.org

Dear Friends of Computer History, I would like to dispel a persistent meme that recurs on this list regarding The Computer Museum's non-destruction/sale/folding/spindling/mutilating of computer equipment. First, let us all take a deep breath and lower the temperature of the issue. Epithets and insults are not only unnecessary but unkind, unprofessional, and unworthy of the people within this group (and at the History Center) that genuinely seek to promote computer history by advancing solid, verifiable knowledge claims in an atmosphere of collegiality and mutual interest. Ok, now the issue (or non-issue, to be more precise). The Computer Museum and now The Computer Museum History Center is a federally-registered non-profit corporation whose mission is to preserve and promote the study of computer history and to serve as an international resource in the history of computing. To this end, it employs, with a very modest staff of 5 full-time persons, all reasonable and modern methods to actively collect and disseminate computer history across five separate collections: hardware, software, media (photos, video, films), ephemera, and documentation. It collects broadly across time and industry with no particular institutional, corporate, or personal axes to grind and this ecumenism has made it a trusted source in computer history by the media, scholars, authors, intellectual property specialists, and the general public. The Computer Museum in Boston has recently merged with the Museum of Science there since there was, essentially, insufficient public support for its activities--even after its change of focus to a hands-on, interactive "science center" model. Consequently, the historical collection of the Museum, one of the finest in the world, was moved to the west coast where, in the midst of silicon valley, there would be a financial, regional, and industrial climate that would allow the collection to be seen by the public in an environment supportive of computer history. At this time, the new entity changed names to become "The Computer Museum History Center," reflecting its institutional focus of being a place where computer history can live without financial concerns--which, as you all know, is the ultimate rate-limiting concept behind computer preservation (as well as time/spousal tolerance!). As I see it, the thought that the Museum "sells," "trashes," or "scraps" artifacts is untenable. In nearly four years as curator and manager of historical collectons at the Center, I have no personal knowledge of any such activities. On the contraty, in the best tradition of computer history, artifacts tend to move in the opposite direction--i.e. FROM the landfill/dumpster/garage TO the Center. It is thus somewhat distressting to here claims to the contrary by individuals who, again to my knowledge, have made not the slightest attempt to contact the History Center in order to discuss the issue or otherwise substantiate their public, and frequently insulting, claims. For example, why would "a list" of such non-practices be desired? Similarly, I see little point in addressing the intemperate remarks/epithets used by the individuals below. As a general principle, however, the group should understand the way Museums operate. I believe there have developed two solitudes which I am eager to bridge: on the one hand, the private collector and, on the other hand, the more formal institutional home for computer history. Private collectors bring incredible passion and subject matter knowledge to their efforts; Museums allow long-term preservation (beyond any one individual's lifespan) and an insitutional footprint for computer history that allows widespread propagation and display of computer history. Both communities need each other! Museums, as part of their legal and institutional mission, exchange and loan artifacts with other institutions of equivalent standing (I say "equivalent" mainly to ensure artifacts are protected and cared for). Museums also "de-accession" items, meaning they remove items >from inventory. There has not been a single such de-accessioning in my tenure at the Center and, as any Museum person anywhere can confirm, de-accessioning is an exceedingly rare and messy procedure--the Museum Board must be convened and solid curatorial justification given as to why an item should not form part of a specific collection. It is never taken lightly and undertaken only with great circumspection. Assuming something were to be so de-accsessioned, however, the first order of business would be to ask other Museums if they were interested in adding the item to their collections; if not, the item would likely be placed at public auction (in the interest of fairness--to not privilege or otherwise show favoritism to any one private collector). This procedure is legal, ethical, and standard operating procedure for Museums around the world. It may be painful to be "scooped" or otherwise see that the items we are particularly fond of are becoming increasingly valuable, but that is the way of the world and a sign that the general public as a whole is beginning to realize that vaue of what we collect. Even given this framework, I know of no disposal/auctioning of machines as described below; to assert that the Museum would throw out an Alto seems sheer folly. Again, it is disheartening to keep hearing the same baseless claims by individuals in this group with respect to the Museum's collections policy. These non-truths reverberate and feed on themselves--I really have to wonder for whose benefit they are made given that, again, a simple e-mail to me could have resolved the issue. Let's move on. How can our two communities work together to preserve the history of the machines and people who invented and used them? 1. I invite everyone on this list to visit the History Center in Mountain View, California. 2. Get involved! The Center belongs to the community that supports it and we have dozens of important tasks (both real and virtual) that need to be done and that can draw on the talents of everyone. Drop me a line if you're interested. 3. Visit our website (www.computerhistory.org) and offer suggestions or curate a virtual exhibit! Our site receives well over 2 million hits a month--what a way to get the word out about computer history! 4. Have your own sites linked to (or even archived) by the Center as a way of bringing attention to your specific area of interest. 5. Help the History Center by bringing interesting donation possibilities to its attention. 6. Become a member! We have probably the largest single collection of electronic computing artifacts in the world--yet we are swamped and could really used the help--$$ or time--in our preservation efforts. 7. Spread the word that what we do is worthwhile. If I haven't managed to convince you, please call me personally and I would be pleased to talk with you, on any topic. 8. Join our regular computer history mailing list-- a great way to stay informed about our activities. I hope I have helped explain how the Center operates and that it is working very hard to become worthy of the community that supports it. I fear there has been little communication between list members and the Center, something I am eager to remedy. When people stop talking to one another, it's the first sign that trouble lies ahead. Please get in touch and join us--together we can build something unique in the world that will last long after we are gone and at which future generations will marvel! We're all in this together. Won't you join us? Best wishes, Dag. -- Dag Spicer Curator & Manager of Historical Collections Editorial Board, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing The Computer Museum History Center Building T12-A NASA Ames Research Center Mountain View, CA 94035 Tel: +1 650 604 2578 Fax: +1 650 604 2594 E-m: spicer(a)computerhistory.org WWW: http://www.computerhistory.org <spicer(a)computerhistory.org> PGP: 15E31235 (E6ECDF74 349D1667 260759AD 7D04C178) S/V 516T Read about The Computer Museum History Center in the November issue of WIRED magazine! See "The Computer Hall of Fame - Modern Art." pp. 276 - 299.

26 years, 7 months

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Debugging ONMIBUS cards

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote: > > That sounds like a reasonable explaination, but how, then, does the DKC8AA > > "reach into" the KK8A to implement _its_ frontpanel? I would have thought > > that the OMNIBUS is the OMNIBUS is the OMNIBUS. > > Via a cable to the KK8A. From the FP perspective Omnibus is but not > totally. Where does the cable plug into the KK8A? Did I miss a 16-pin DIP header somewhere? There are no Berg connectors. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

26 years, 7 months

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FW:

by jfedorko＠virtualadmin.com

-----Original Message----- From: Firman Kistler, Big Shot Productions [mailto:firmankistler@mailgate.bigshot.com] On Behalf Of Firman Kistler, Big Shot Productions Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 3:15 PM To: Aunt Mick; Joel Fedorko; Lauren DiNatle; Mike Davis (Tank); Tim Hughes; Tim Hunt Subject: << You might be in a country church if....... 1. The doors are never locked. 2. The Call to Worship is "Y'all come on in!" 3. People grumble about Noah letting coyotes on the Ark. 4. The Preacher says, "I'd like to ask Bubba to help take up the offering" and five guys stand up. 5. The restrooms are outside. 6. Opening day of deer hunting season is recognized as an official church holiday. 7. A member requests to be buried in his four-wheel drive truck because, "I ain't ever been in a hole it couldn't get me out of". 8. In the annual stewardship drive there is at least one pledge of "two calves". 9. Never in its entire 100-year history has one of its pastors had to buy any meat or vegetables. 10. When it rains, everybody's smiling. 11. Prayers regarding the weather are a standard part of every worship service. 12. A singing group is known as the "OK Chorale". 13. The church directory doesn't have last names. 14. The pastor wears boots. 15. Four generations of one family sit together in worship every Sunday. 16. The only time people lock their cars in the parking lot is during the summer and then only so their neighbors can't leave them a bag of squash. 17. There is no such thing as a "secret" sin. 18. Baptism is referred to as "branding". 19. There is a special fund-raiser for a new septic tank. 20. Finding and returning lost sheep is not just a parable. 21. You miss worship one Sunday morning and by 2 O'clock that afternoon you have had a dozen calls inquiring about your health. 22. High notes on the organ sets dogs in the parking lot to howling. 23. When Jesus fed the 5,000, people wonder whether the two fish were bass or catfish. 24. People think "Rapture" is what happens when you lift something too heavy. 25. The cemetery is in such barren ground that people are buried with a sack of fertilizer to help them rise on Judgment Day. 26. It's not heaven, but you can see heaven from there. 27. The final words of the benediction are, "Y'all come on back now, ya hear". Firman Kistler

26 years, 7 months

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The Computer Museum History Center Collections Policy

by mbg＠world.std.com

>> Specifically there are three DEC systems that TCM/Boston had, PDP-1, >> PDP-6 and a PDP-7. Where are they and what is their current status? I essentially asked the same question in private mail... I had only heard about the pdp-6 (from Stanford, if I remember correctly... and working when gifted). I hadn't heard about the others, but am suitably interested in specific answers... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 7 months

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Saving old documentation

by pat＠transarc.ibm.com

I just posted this to alt.sys.pdp10, but I think it's an appropriate inquiry for this list, too: So, I have a few old manuals: >> "PDP-10 Processor Handbook", dated 1970 and describing the KA10; >> "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook", same vintage, describing monitor utilities and such; >> "DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Programming", dated 1972 (? unsure, and the book isn't here with me right now), describing KA10 and KI10 and some programming utilities (MACRO, DDT, Loader, etc.) These are all phonebook-style manuals, printed on newsprint, and are all beginning to fall apart - the paper has turned yellow/brown, and some of the pages are starting to crumble like dry leaves. Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least, have their disintegration slowed down)? I'm inclined to try to scan them in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books immediately. Can anyone suggest any other preservation methods? --Pat.

26 years, 7 months

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Saving old documentation

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Upon the date 10:59 AM 11/24/99 -0500, Pat Barron said something like: >I just posted this to alt.sys.pdp10, but I think it's an appropriate >inquiry for this list, too: > >So, I have a few old manuals: > > >> "PDP-10 Processor Handbook", dated 1970 and describing the KA10; > >> "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook", same vintage, describing monitor > utilities and such; > >> "DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Programming", dated 1972 (? unsure, > and the book isn't here with me right now), describing KA10 and > KI10 and some programming utilities (MACRO, DDT, Loader, etc.) > >These are all phonebook-style manuals, printed on newsprint, and are all >beginning to fall apart - the paper has turned yellow/brown, and some of >the pages are starting to crumble like dry leaves. > >Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least, >have their disintegration slowed down)? I'm inclined to try to scan them >in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would >require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books >immediately. Can anyone suggest any other preservation methods? Tough call. They are on their way to self-destruction because of that doggone cheap acid paper. This indicates they will be eventually unusable without disintegrating in your hands. Libraries and book collectors use some sort of process which neutralizes the acid and virtually reduces degradation. I haven't investigated this myself but I would suspect it could be somewhat expensive relative to the actual value of the document. Maybe when the document is relatively far along with acid destruction as you say yours are, neutralization may be fruitless. Anybody have any comments on that neutralizing process? I think to simply preserve the information I would have to carefully dismantle the manual page by page and copy them using a high quality scanner or Xerox machine. The loss of the *information* will at least be prevented. With that process I would be able to use the original covers and make a replica manual (plus a coverless second 'working' manual I could use at my programming terminal). I've got a couple of the DEC Handbooks which are breaking down like this -including the 1976 PDP-11/10 Handbook which I think is the first in that series. These Handbooks would be quite tricky to preserve in either manner as they're thick and page size is small. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/

26 years, 7 months

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SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Dag Spicer

by spicer＠computerhistory.org

-- Dag Spicer Curator & Manager of Historical Collections Editorial Board, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing The Computer Museum History Center Building T12-A NASA Ames Research Center Mountain View, CA 94035 Offices: Building T12-A Exhibit Area: Building 126 Tel: +1 650 604 2578 Fax: +1 650 604 2594 E-m: spicer(a)computerhistory.org WWW: http://www.computerhistory.org <spicer(a)tcm.org> PGP: 15E31235 (E6ECDF74 349D1667 260759AD 7D04C178) S/V T12 Read about The Computer Museum History Center in the November issue of WIRED magazine! See "The Computer Hall of Fame - Modern Art." pp. 276 - 299.

26 years, 7 months

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FA: Lots of manuals and other stuff

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Hi All, I sent this message to the CC list auction notification address but it never appeared in my mailbaox and I havent gotten anything from that serrvice for a long time so I guess it's not working any more. I've decided to clear out some of my excess books and stuff so I've put a BUNCH of manuals on E-bay. I'm starting with IBM Technical Reference manuals and a big load of DEC manuals. Some of them are pretty unusual like the two volume Tech Ref for the IBM Converible PC. I'm also listing many old Intel books. I have a HUGE pile of HP and DEC manuals that I will be listing. Many of them date back to the early '70s. I'll be adding some DEC and HP hardware when I have time. I'll keep adding stuff so keep checking back. Here's the URL for the first book, "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=206460875". You can click on View Seller's Other Auctions to get a list of everything. Joe

26 years, 7 months

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Just found schematics to a Tube Mini! 1958! WOW!

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

This unit is not listed anywhere on the web and have not found it in the list of Digital Computers (though I can't find the page I usually look at). In going through my PDP-8 stuff I found a book called "RCL". This *mini* was built in 1958. I uses delay line memory, has a number of mini-computer functions (many tube flip flops) and it's programmed with wires (i think). It has a bulb front panel with some program control switches. Interfaced to it was a printer and a CRT (maybe more, I am just getting through the memory control schematics). Its memory control system contains: Set address, decimal decoder, subtract 1, read , add, write (all these three have many other function control flip flops), address overflow, decode, print, carry, add+1, end storage... Address system is 8 bit. (256 bits of address space) OOOOOOOOOOOOOO.. (just flipped the page) it *does* have a core memory array. (5 stages X 256 bit) OOOOOOOOOOOOoo (just flipped the page again)... It has a 16 bit A/D converter (tubes) (sorry but OOOOOOOOOO - just flipped the,,,,,....) it has a data register .. Ahhh, this is a 16 bit mini, with core (just found more core memory) Getting an instruction set here - (so far): Add +1 Add Add -1 (subtract) Compliment Add with carry reset (jump?) stop next page - A/D unit (yikes!) many tubes..... CRT display (uses delay line memory ... I think.. if not , no idea yet) Power supply is nasty printer control modules - yuck! Okay, indicator panel (found it) has: 16 bit data bus, 8 bit address bus (light bulbs) Programming - weird, user has access to core memory, has "START, RESET switches), it has a *really weird* tube for "real time".. looks to be a cesium tube or delay tube... many sensors for "real time" more programming instructions: print clear to zero display I thought at first this unit was a counter but I see a whole programming area with different op codes, two types of storage and a printer with CRT. This should qualify as a *kind* of mini... It was meant to work with A/D and D/A with some coded instructions in core memory/wires. Anyone hear of such a unit? Part of it is called "multichannel analyzer" but that is only the a/d subsystem. I only have the schematics so I have to figure stuff out from there. john

26 years, 7 months

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Debugging ONMIBUS cards

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote: > No I don't. First off make sure the "tty" is configured correctly. Real > TTYs are wired with keyboard bit 7 high and all 8 reader bits active. > This is hard to duplicate with terminal programs. For now, I'm using a VT220 as an output-only device. I haven't gotten as far as attempting input. > > I'd still love to hear why a KK8A isn't happy with the -8/e frontpanel... > > They are not compatable at the control level not the bus level. The KK8a > was not designed with a "peripheral" reaching into it's registers and data > paths. I'd bet if the kk8a runs in the 8e box the FP can display but only > limited things. That sounds like a reasonable explaination, but how, then, does the DKC8AA "reach into" the KK8A to implement _its_ frontpanel? I would have thought that the OMNIBUS is the OMNIBUS is the OMNIBUS. Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

26 years, 7 months

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Floppy Drive specifications

by oajones＠bright.net

Can anyone tell me where I can find Floppy Drive specifications on the internet? Right now I am looking for specs on a Mitsubishi MF504B-318U 5 1/4" drive. I forget if this drive is DD or HD. I have some other drives I need to get the specs on too. Thanks in advance... --Alan

26 years, 7 months

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Oscilloscopes

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> I agree but I would not recommend someone dropping a couple hundred bucks <> fix an old 20Mhz scope as I am sure they would not limit their use < <It probably wouldn't cost anything like that much... Most older 'scopes <are easy and cheap to repair. I'd agree. generally most scopes are not to bad to fix but some are definately more avoidable like the really old Valved units. <> *exclusively* to vintage minis. A 20Mhz scope in RF/High speed logic <> troubleshooting/design is totally useless. A 20Mhz scope isn't even very < <_Nonsense_. I've done a heck of a lot of troubleshooting on quite modern <stuff using that 15MHz 'scope I mentioned earlier. It all depends on how <you use your instrument and if you know how to interpret the results. I agree. At the time the PDP-8 was common the 465 was the hotshot on the block and few had one. I remember seeing 316s with the dual trace plug in used for that! <Maybe not Tektronix, but there are still 20 and 30 MHz 'scopes in the <catalogues. And most of them are horrible -- they don't trigger properly, the B&K, Hitachi and Leader are three I know well and they trigger OK, say about as well as most of the HPs. ;) Seriously, they arent Tek, they don't have that nice trigger but many others that are faster don't. Most of the better 20mhz scopes really do see 20 and then some and a few of the off brand faster ones don't. Tek is expensive, DSOs/DPOs are not always interchangable either. All of this is mostly unimportant to troubleshooting a errent core stack. <etc. You'd be _much_ better off spending the money to fix up an old <Tektronix than buying one of those. Of course if you can afford a new Tek <with all the bells and whistles, well that's great!. If you can fix one, some of them can be had for a song. a few are really collectable on their own merits. I'd really like to have a 316! <At least one company seems to define an 'x MHz scope' as : If you turn <the Y gain right up and apply the maximum allowed signal then you'll see <_something_ at 'x MHz'. I am not joking... Some are pretty poor. The NLS MS15 is in that pool. However being battery operated and a 75$ investment back in 76 made it a fair little scope even now. OH, that core... there is a switch on the g111 module and if misset the core will not work. It sets the slice time for the read amps. If wrong the code has stuck bits or worse flakey ones. The other thing that can go off is the current drivers, if the current level is off... no write, no read. Allison

26 years, 7 months

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Oscilloscopes

by edick＠idcomm.com

Going too cheap on a 'scope might be regretted. Buying too recent a low-end instrument might be a disappointment as well. A 20-year-old 465 in really decent functional condition and with al its parts and manuals can be had nearly any day from a retailer of such hardware for $400, including a pair of 100 MHz probes with most of their accessories, and often for less than that. It (including the somewhat less well-suited 'B' version) will do ANYTHING you need on most classic hardware. Knowing that, by itself, is worth quite a bit, because you KNOW when you power it up, it will do what you need. What might be even more interesting is the more or less equivalent TEK 466, which is a storage scope. That will let you do even more than the 465 and, when you can find one, won't cost much more. A current-generation low-end analog 'scope will not begin to do what a 20-25-year-old one will do, because 25 years ago, the 20 MHz scope was the typical workhorse. If you look at today's, it's a toy. If you find a used TEK 935 (?) which was considered a "student" instrument for use in schools, etc, it's all solid-state, which means you don't have to use up $5 in power to warm it up, and spend $5 more for a six-pack to drink while you wait, and, though it hasn't got the high bandwidth, it has the delayed timebase, and two channels triggerable either externally or internally, etc. You shouldn't have to pay even $200 for one of these, complete with the two probes, which, by the way, are probably over half the cost. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 7:47 PM Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes >> I agree but I would not recommend someone dropping a couple hundred bucks to >> fix an old 20Mhz scope as I am sure they would not limit their use > >It probably wouldn't cost anything like that much... Most older 'scopes >are easy and cheap to repair. > >> *exclusively* to vintage minis. A 20Mhz scope in RF/High speed logic >> troubleshooting/design is totally useless. A 20Mhz scope isn't even very > >_Nonsense_. I've done a heck of a lot of troubleshooting on quite modern >stuff using that 15MHz 'scope I mentioned earlier. It all depends on how >you use your instrument and if you know how to interpret the results. > >> good at looking at the color burst of a video signal in any detail. Again, I >> find most folks design/troubleshoot in a variety of areas and that's why we >> need scopes with all the toys. I don't see Tek making any more 20Mhz boxes. > >Maybe not Tektronix, but there are still 20 and 30 MHz 'scopes in the >catalogues. And most of them are horrible -- they don't trigger properly, >etc. You'd be _much_ better off spending the money to fix up an old >Tektronix than buying one of those. Of course if you can afford a new Tek >with all the bells and whistles, well that's great!. > >The other thing is that a Tektronix '20 MHz' scope will, in general >display something useful for signals of a considerably higher frequency >(I've 'pushed' a 50MHz 547 (_really old_) to at least 75 MHz). Yes, the >amplitude calibration is off. All signals look like a sine wave. But you >can still make measurements if you have to. > >At least one company seems to define an 'x MHz scope' as : If you turn >the Y gain right up and apply the maximum allowed signal then you'll see >_something_ at 'x MHz'. I am not joking... > >-tony >

26 years, 7 months

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Oscilloscopes

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> I know the 20mhz B&K would be more than enough to track 8F core problems < <Sure... But if you're buying a 'scope, it makes sense to get one that <will do all that you might need. So while you don't need a 50MHz 'scope <or whatever to sort out 8/f core memory, you might find it worth getting <one for other work. Hence the B&K 20mhz. I do a lot of slow, audio and assorted control stuff that doesn't require a fast scope. My MS15 (bought used 22years ago) is so I have battery operation for portable use. <You don't _need_ expensive test equipment. I've done a lot of fault <tracing using a cheap analogue multimeter and a Radio Shack logic probe. <And with those 2 instruments I managed to extract enough clues to the <fault to replace the fault component first time (most of the time). ;) so happens... <However, I am also sure that there are people here who could use some <more clues as to the fault, who can't interpret every last piece of <information that they can get from simple instruments. And those people <generally make use of rather more instruments, which perhaps aren't <strictly necessary... There in lies the problem. Sometimes the test setup can cause error. Good tools are a must, but good does not always mean the "best" only that is be fully working and calibrated combined with the knowledge to use it. The key is what ever scope is used to know and understand it well, and I mean very well. Generally this applies to many instruments. I happen to do better than average because back when I couldn't afford I had to make do, that meant getting the most and then some. That and over 30 years of experience is particurally handy at times. Oh, the 465 I had, I sold it real cheap to someone I thought could really use a good scope. He dropped it. ;( Allison

26 years, 7 months

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Oscilloscopes

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 9:43 PM Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes >> I agree but I would not recommend someone dropping a couple hundred bucks to >> fix an old 20Mhz scope as I am sure they would not limit their use > >It probably wouldn't cost anything like that much... Most older 'scopes >are easy and cheap to repair. > We are talking about someone here who is *unable* to fix his own scope. I am sure you or I could fix it for under $5 (providing the CRT and flyback are good)... but in the real world most people *can't* fix their own test equipment. In fact, most general repair shops aren't able to do a fair job.... >> *exclusively* to vintage minis. A 20Mhz scope in RF/High speed logic >> troubleshooting/design is totally useless. A 20Mhz scope isn't even very > >_Nonsense_. I've done a heck of a lot of troubleshooting on quite modern >stuff using that 15MHz 'scope I mentioned earlier. It all depends on how >you use your instrument and if you know how to interpret the results. Tony, I can't see distortion in an oscillator at 61.25Mhz with a 20Mhz scope.... And I have pioneered *alot* of code cracking on video signals and that would not be possible with any old equipment. You *can* do alot of troubleshooting with a 15Mhz scope... but, for instance, I can't see distortion/FSK data on a122.7Mhz oscillator/FM transmitter (that band should mean something to you ;-) ) with a 15Mhz scope. Each to his own... You obviously love working with old test equipment and support old hardware. I don't see a lot of people out there like yourself anymore.. [although I have met a few non-gui UNIX administrators that hate my guts after tossing their servers for NT] .. I like working on the old stuff; sometimes even with the old stuff... but I don't bring that into new world work... That's just me. > >> good at looking at the color burst of a video signal in any detail. Again, I >> find most folks design/troubleshoot in a variety of areas and that's why we >> need scopes with all the toys. I don't see Tek making any more 20Mhz boxes. > >Maybe not Tektronix, but there are still 20 and 30 MHz 'scopes in the >catalogues. And most of them are horrible -- they don't trigger properly, >etc. You'd be _much_ better off spending the money to fix up an old >Tektronix than buying one of those. Of course if you can afford a new Tek >with all the bells and whistles, well that's great!. > I agree, but old scopes are expensive to maintain for someone who is not able to repair it himself. >The other thing is that a Tektronix '20 MHz' scope will, in general >display something useful for signals of a considerably higher frequency >(I've 'pushed' a 50MHz 547 (_really old_) to at least 75 MHz). Yes, the >amplitude calibration is off. All signals look like a sine wave. But you >can still make measurements if you have to. MY POINT! I was refering to RF work above... you don't just buy a scope for old mini digital work.. If you buy an old scope/20Mhz you automatically rule out most high frequency analog work and communications. Digital signals look like sine waves.. ever tried to diagnose a problem with an RF circuit with a minimum bandwidth scope??? The waveform looks like pure garbage.. Hence, the need for a *real* scope. > >At least one company seems to define an 'x MHz scope' as : If you turn >the Y gain right up and apply the maximum allowed signal then you'll see >_something_ at 'x MHz'. I am not joking... > Agreed , I have done it with my 2465 (yes, I have had to look at RF higher than 300Mhz)... In fact, I use to use a dual trace Gould (100Mhz) on 200Mhz work..... with minor grief. All depends on the application. Where are you located in the UK? >-tony >

26 years, 7 months

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Convergent technologies workSlate, atari computer lot, etc for sale on ebay

by Maddog1331＠aol.com

Hey all, I hate to solicit bids, but thought you folks might be interested in the stuff I have up for auction on ebay. Here is my seller list: <A HREF="http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItem s&userid=maddog1331&include=0&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25">http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw -cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid=maddog1331&include=0 &since=-1&sort=2&rows=25</A> I have a bunch of stuff, and have to clear some of it out so I can have some room for a couple of nice systems...the apartment is like full! Thanks for looking, and I have other stuff I will be putting on there soon :-) A bunch of Timex Sinclair stuff, among others. Mark

26 years, 7 months

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BA23 available!

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

I have a BA23 that was "hidden" inside a Sigma Design expando cabinet. (looks kinda like a BA123 except that it has a door on the front, incompatible disk mounting slides and a weird "slave" power supply. I believe the BA23 to be in good working order, I'll pull it out and test it (I know the slave PSU is toast) It is in Sunnyvale CA (94087), I'm willing to part with it for 1.5x shipping however shipping in this case is "take it down to the packing store and have them pack and ship it" since I haven't a box or sufficient packing material to cover it. Because it is in the Sigma cabinet it doesn't have the standard "DEC shelf" for mounting in a rack. It does have a uVAX II badge on it and no drives. Email me if you want it, first come first served... --Chuck

26 years, 7 months

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Spare BA* series chassi?

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> wrote: > Good luck, I won't tell you how long it's taken me to get even a spare BA23 > and BA123 as backups. It took me a long time to find a BA123, too. Cost me a bit of money at the time as well. I've never seen them drop from the skies (but I have picked up $50 MicroVAX I's in the past). > Something to consider with the BA123's is that > they're more than just a computer, they're also a small table.. > ...Mine has a LA75 and a VT420 sitting on top of it, Beware of loading the top too heavily. My BA123 has a dent under one caster because someone probably sat on the corner or did something else unnice to it. I pounded it out as best I can, but that caster is still a couple millimeters higher than the other three. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

26 years, 7 months

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E.U.N.U.C.H. (Cooling)

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> According to my numbers: AL 210 Cu 380 Ag 408 - just I have no expliciet > temperature named (and I'm somewhat confused, since I belived that lambda > is not depending on any temperature, but rather a coefficient(?) to determinate > the conductance (?) - otherwise you'd have to integrate lambda over the > temperaturerange within the object (remember, its w/mK, where K is dT)) For really accurate studies you do indeed have to do just that. Thermal conductivity varies with temperature in much the same way as electrical conductivity - and is (AFAIK) similarly infinite in superconductors, which no doubt helps in cooling them... >> Anyway, it seems to me that the way to go is: >> 1. Peltier chip between CPU and heatsink. Heatsink is a large block of copper. > > Adds more and more heat - an infinite loop, where you have to add a bigger > part to the 'interchange' on the hot side, hust for transporting the Yes, but not much more. I have never seen a figure for efficiency of peltier chips, but I have always assumed around 200%, i.e. removes about twice as much heat as it generates. (YMMV - Efficiency varies with temperature difference) > Peltiers own heat. I found it better to optimise the transport within the > interchange element (as with using Cu or Ag, and mor efficient flow > structures) than just adding a Peltier. It's not about geting the Possibly true in a lot of applications ... > target temperature as low as possible, but rather transporting away > ad much (thermal) power as possible - that will inherently keep the > target from overheating. I have not much experience with cooling CPUs, but with other semiconductors (mainly power transistors) I have found that the biggest thermal resistance in the circuit is almost invariably semiconductor to package exterior. The amount of heat you can remove depends therefore mainly on maximum allowable temperature of semiconductor and temperature of package surface. Getting the package surface down another few degrees will in a lot of cases more than make up for the extra heat the peltier chip produces. It may even do so without extra cooling on the water (etc.) side - a few degrees lower on the IC balanced by a few degrees higher on the water may transport all the extra heet you need. Especially if your cooling is decent (low thermal resistance) between water and ambient. > Also, if we just remove the heat to keep the device (and all parts) > not below environment temperature we avoide all probems with > condensation (word?). We don't have to isolate all cooled parts > wathertight. Saving again a lot of recurces. Condensation could be a problem, although it didn't seem to be in project EUNUCH. Some sort of drying arrangement for the ventilation should be sufficient though - this too can be done with cooling... >> 2. Use a refrigerant cycle similar to a domestic freezer, but connect the >> refrigerant circuit directly to holes bored in the heatsink block. No >> intervening water circuit. > >> 3. Of course, keep the refrigerant radiator well away from the system, and >> supply it with plenty of fans... > > Or just use water and a real _big_ radiator to expell the heat. > After all, it's again about radiation a specific amount of > thermal power - and this can be done by either a high delta-T > or just a biger surface (phi = lamda * S * delta-T / delta). Still keep the radiator well away from the system and supply it with plenty of fans! See above for my reasons for keeping the temperature down... > Conclusion: I belive that a 'soft' aproach can give the same > result in most situation without spending endless resources > to push a single idea solution (brute force). Perhaps. But your solution is limited by the ambient temperature, the maximum chip temperature and the thermal resistance within the IC. For any better heat transfer than that, you _have_ to cool below ambient. I was simply exploring ways of doing this. Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474

26 years, 7 months

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Alto file types

by aek＠spies.com

This may be of general interest, or if not, at least it will go into the mailing list archive.. some Alto file extensions Alto file names are case-independent .run executable file .cm command file (executive instructions, like CP/M batch files) .boot bootable file .d BCPL definition file (like C .h files) .bcpl BCPL source file .syms BCPL symbol file .asm Alto assembly language source file .mu Alto microcode source file .br BCPL binary file .decl BCPL declarations file (same as .d) .al Alto font file .bravo Bravo text file .press Press document file .mesa Mesa source file .bcd Mesa binary file .image Mesa executable file .draw Draw document file .log Log files .st Smalltalk source file Since XDE is a descendent of the Alto Mesa environment, many of the extensions (.cm .mesa .bcd) carried forward onto D machines.

26 years, 7 months

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Saving old documentation

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>So, I have a few old manuals: > > >> "PDP-10 Processor Handbook", dated 1970 and describing the KA10; > >> "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook", same vintage, describing monitor > utilities and such; > >> "DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Programming", dated 1972 (? unsure, > and the book isn't here with me right now), describing KA10 and > KI10 and some programming utilities (MACRO, DDT, Loader, etc.) > >These are all phonebook-style manuals, printed on newsprint, and are all >beginning to fall apart - the paper has turned yellow/brown, and some of >the pages are starting to crumble like dry leaves. > >Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least, >have their disintegration slowed down)? I'm inclined to try to scan them >in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would >require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books >immediately. Can anyone suggest any other preservation methods? Yeah, well, that's the rub. Doug Jones wrote up his efforts to preserve of PDP-8 paperbacks, and he begins: Once you have concluded that a paperback is beond repair, the first step in preserving its contents is to complete its destruction. Slice off the glued spine of the paperback so that the pages come apart as separate sheets. You can cut the sheets from the spine with an X-acto knife, or you can find a shop with a paper shear that will cut the spine loose. Doug then goes into a very detailed step-by-step description of producing an archival-quality duplicate of the original information. For further details on Doug's efforts, see http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/book/ -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 7 months

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UPDATE: Just found schematics to a Tube Mini! 1958! WOW!

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

Just found the clock module: It ran at 5 Khz. john -----Original Message----- From: John B <dylanb(a)sympatico.ca> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 12:35 PM Subject: Just found schematics to a Tube Mini! 1958! WOW! >This unit is not listed anywhere on the web and have not found it in the >list of Digital Computers (though I can't find the page I usually look at). > >In going through my PDP-8 stuff I found a book called "RCL". > >This *mini* was built in 1958. > >I uses delay line memory, has a number of mini-computer functions (many tube >flip flops) and it's programmed with wires (i think). It has a bulb front >panel with some program control switches. > >Interfaced to it was a printer and a CRT (maybe more, I am just getting >through the memory control schematics). > >Its memory control system contains: > >Set address, decimal decoder, subtract 1, read , add, write (all >these three have many other function control flip flops), address overflow, >decode, print, carry, add+1, end storage... > > >Address system is 8 bit. (256 bits of address space) > >OOOOOOOOOOOOOO.. (just flipped the page) it *does* have a core memory array. >(5 stages X 256 bit) > >OOOOOOOOOOOOoo (just flipped the page again)... It has a 16 bit A/D >converter (tubes) > >(sorry but OOOOOOOOOO - just flipped the,,,,,....) it has a data register .. >Ahhh, this is a 16 bit mini, with core (just found more core memory) > >Getting an instruction set here - (so far): > >Add +1 >Add >Add -1 (subtract) >Compliment >Add with carry >reset (jump?) >stop > > >next page - A/D unit (yikes!) many tubes..... > >CRT display (uses delay line memory ... I think.. if not , no idea yet) > >Power supply is nasty > >printer control modules - yuck! > >Okay, indicator panel (found it) has: 16 bit data bus, 8 bit address bus >(light bulbs) > >Programming - weird, user has access to core memory, has "START, RESET >switches), it has a *really weird* tube for "real time".. looks to be a >cesium tube or delay tube... many sensors for "real time" > >more programming instructions: > >print >clear to zero >display > > >I thought at first this unit was a counter but I see a whole programming >area with different op codes, two types of storage and a printer with CRT. >This should qualify as a *kind* of mini... It was meant to work with A/D and >D/A with some coded instructions in core memory/wires. > >Anyone hear of such a unit? > >Part of it is called "multichannel analyzer" but that is only the a/d >subsystem. I only have the schematics so I have to figure stuff out from >there. > >john > > > >

26 years, 7 months

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Debugging ONMIBUS cards

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote: > > the PDP-8/a, I can't generate discreet operations... > > Forget TTY, Forget OS/8, Forget the full spread of boards just the base CPU > and memory that's all. Then, so far, so good. As I said, it runs basic ops. The inchworm program is about as far as I can get without custom-crafting diag routines until I get a TTY online to read MAINDEC tapes. At the moment, all I have in the -8/e is the CPU, an MS8-C and an M8650. I toggled in an ASCII printing routine from the 1973 -8/e handbook (page 4-4, IIRC) and I didn't see anything appear on the terminal nor the RS-232 traffic light. If you happen to have a handy TTY test loop up your sleeve, then I'd love to see it. It makes it much harder to debug hardware when you have to debug your own diagnostic software at the same time. I'd still love to hear why a KK8A isn't happy with the -8/e frontpanel. I would have thought that they were compatible. The OMNIBUS isn't all that complex. There's not a lot of room for variations. > Make that work then add pieces. when they are good > you can transfer them to the 8a. Here's the problem... I can only test so much of the -8/e with only the front panel and the docs I have (I don't have a sheaf of toggle-in diags to try or I would). Once I put the KK8E in the -8/a box, _all_ I can do is hit the boot switch. It doesn't boot. The KK8A sort-of boots. There's this enormous testing gap between what I can do on the -8/e with no ability to load in diag tapes and what I can do on the -8/a with only the OS to boot. If I at least had an -8/a front panel, I could do some testing in that frame as well. > The 8E front pannel is fairly simple and a logic probe will be adaquate > to shoot it if the switches and lights aren't enough. Beyond a possible dirty EXAM switch, I have no reason to suspect anything is wrong with the 8/e front panel. A secondary question: when WPS throws up the "ABC" at the start of the boot sequence, what happens between the letters? I have one disk that only shows the "A" and the CPU locks up. What might that suggest? Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

26 years, 7 months

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Spare BA* series chassi?

by ndiablo＠diablonet.net

Hi, all.. I've recently upgraded my microVAX II to a III and I have enough spare qbus cards around to built another microVAX II, but unfortunently no spare chassi.. I've scoured the general area and places like eBay and i've not been able to track down anything, so I was wondering if anybody had any spare BA* chassi that they would be interested in selling... Looking mostly for BA23 chassi since they're a bit more mangable than something like a BA123... I'd be willing to buy and/or pay shipping and handling on any that anybody might not need. Or, if somebody had a spare BA123 or something and lived in the south- western to south-central Michigan area and rather excessive shipping costs would not be an issue, i'd be willing to pick them up as well. Thanks a bunch, -Sean Caron (root(a)diablonet.net)

26 years, 7 months

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MSVC

by lance＠costanzo.net

At 07:56 AM 11/24/1999 -0700, you wrote: >http://community.borland.com/museum/ >I have to log in now, I don't remember that, but it's free anyway. Skip the login crud: http://community.borland.com/museum/borland/software/ >>>> Do you know where I can purchase a copy of Microsoft Visual C. I do >>>> not wnat C++, just plain old Visual C for compiling in DOS. http://www.emsps.com/oldtools/ Will any of these work for you? C 203 <DIR> C 600 <DIR> C 700 <DIR> CRTL 700 <DIR> (rtl for c7) QC 250 <DIR> QC 200 <DIR> Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting lance(a)costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees

26 years, 7 months

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PDP-8/e restoration (was Re: Oscilloscopes)`

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- John B <dylanb(a)sympatico.ca> wrote: > Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > How is your 8/e restoration going? > > john cf other message, but I know several things _are_ working: the bulbs, the PSU, both MS8-C cards, at least 90% of the KK8E board set. At the moment, I can't verify proper serial operation so I can't load diagnostic tapes. I have two boards - M865 and M8650. I have a homemade (tested) RS-232 cable for the M8650 and a 20mA cable missing the black Berg housing (Mate-n-Lok on one end, crimped on gold pin contacts on the other - no 40-pin connector body). The M865 has a 12" cable and a Mate-n-Lok 20mA connector on it, but I can't find my box of TTY cables (to hook up my VT220 to it). I still have this pr/s01 20mA portable papertape reader, but I still know nothing about it, especially baud rate. I haven't yet hauled a 'scope out to the place the -8's are at. That's one of the next steps. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

26 years, 7 months

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MSVC

by mallison＠konnections.com

http://community.borland.com/museum/ I have to log in now, I don't remember that, but it's free anyway. I was going to suggest this, but I thought I might have been seriously wrong about the Visual C thing.... -Mike -----Original Message----- From: Bob Withers <bwit(a)pobox.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 6:56 AM Subject: Re: MSVC >Version 6 was interesting in that it was both DOS and 16 bit OS/2. Version >7 was the first version of C++ and was for DOS/Win16 only. I think version >8 was the first version to carry the "Visual C++" label. > >To the original poster, if Quick C is what you are looking for email me, I >think I have a couple around here. If Borland Turbo C would do as well you >can download versions 1 through (I think) 2.5 from the web. I've misplaced >the URL but perhaps some kind soul here will provide it. > >Regards, >Bob > >At 07:42 PM 11/23/99 -0800, you wrote: >>You're probably thinking of Microsoft Quick C for DOS. >>It had a "low-resolution" (character) graphics interface >>and was available for DOS as well as Windows 3.1. >>If you search the Internet for surplus software sites, >>you might find a copy around; I seem to remember seeing >>some sites in the past that had older stuff like this, >>but I don't recall exactly where. >> >>If you are comfortable with a command-line interface, >>Microsoft C Version 6.0 was probably best version of >>Microsoft C before Visual C++ (Version 8) came out. >> >>Dave >> >>Bill Farmer wrote: >>> >>> Do you know where I can purchase a copy of Microsoft Visual C. I do >>> not wnat C++, just plain old Visual C for compiling in DOS. >> >> > >

26 years, 7 months

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MSVC

by wlfarmer＠ancimail.prod.fedex.com

Do you know where I can purchase a copy of Microsoft Visual C. I do not wnat C++, just plain old Visual C for compiling in DOS.

26 years, 7 months

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MicroVax I microVMS 4.1 Password locked out.

by truthanl＠oclc.org

My MicroVax 1 microVMS 4.1 wont allow me past username password prompt. My VMS system managers manaul talks about a way yo "Conversational Boot" a Vax system to enter "SET UAFALTERNATE 1". It shows this beig done from a SYSBOOT> prompt. I dont know how to get a SYSBOOT Prompt or Conversational Boot on my MicroVax I. VMS System managers Manual states that this info is in "Hardware System installation & operators Guide for (my) specific system. I don't have this guide. Is there A FAQ somewhere on breaking in past your username/password prompt >from microVax console? Ethan Dicks gave me default SYSTEM MANAGER FIELD SERVICE and SYSTEST UETP username password pairs, which don't help. This should be the common case of system manager forgetting Password. ANY HELP? Is there a crypyic command structure to intercept sysboot process and make it "conversational"? Sincerely Larry Truthan

26 years, 7 months

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Debugging ONMIBUS cards

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> the PDP-8/a, I can't generate discreet operations to run the CPU through its > paces and I can't toggle in simple programs. I have the prints for the > DKC8AA. Is it feasible to build my own front panel? I don't even have one > to copy; I'd be guessing the whole way. If I could use the KK8A in the -8/e > box, I would use _its_ front panel, but that doesn't seem to work either. Fix the 8E box first. don't worry which board is not working but start with that box and a minimal configuration. Forget TTY, Forget OS8, Forget teh full spread of boards just the base CPU and memory thats all. Make that work then add peices. when they are good you can transfer them to the 8a. The 8E front pannel is fairly simple and a logic probe will be adaquate to shoot it if the switches and lights aren't enough. Allison

26 years, 7 months

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FWD: saving DECWriter III settings

by dpeschel＠u.washington.edu

I got this in myh mailbox. It's been a while but maybe someone can still help this guy. It's a very simple question (except that I've never used any model of DECWriter)2~. Please reply to the original sender (he hasn't subscribed to the list yet). -- Derek Forwarded message: > From: "Gary A. Anderson" <GAnderson(a)UMPhysicians.umn.edu> > To: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu > Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:14:33 -0600 > > Trying to find out how to save settings on the Digital Decwriter III. Can > you help or do you know of any who can? Thanks > > Gary A. Anderson > Information Systems > U of MN. Physicians > Voice 612 782-6432 > Pager 612 648-2406 > Fax 612 782-9558

26 years, 7 months

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Oscilloscopes

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: healyzh(a)aracnet.com <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 6:53 PM Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes >Mike Cheponis wrote: >> I must say, however, with my digital TDS 210 now, I rarely use the 465 >> unless I need more than 2 traces, and I don't need the digital capture >> and measurement facilities of the '210 that makes working on the bench >> -much- more productive. > >Well, you seem to like the TDS 210, so I'm curious, which would you >recommend fixing up the 465B (as seems to be the general advice) or get a >210? Is there any classic computer gear I'd need a better scope for? > Watch used 210s.. Tektronix recalled a huge lot of them (I think almost all of them) last year as the connection to ground was breaking off inside the scope (Yikes!). Also, the 210 has a shitty display like my THS720A... it is LCD and rather fast changing waveforms can look like a band of black on the screen (very annoying).. The price is right and the storage is nice but the display is not anywhere near as nice as a CRT. Best thing to do is go to your local Tek dealer and try out a TDS210 and a CRT model (maybe even a 694C ;-) ).. See which one your comfortable with and then buy used if you don't want to spend the bucks. I don't recommend throwing away a few hundred dollars on an old piece of junk... you just might get another PDP-8 to fix! ;-) john >> > On Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:45:59 -0800 Al Kossow <aek(a)spies.com> writes: >> > > Fry's isn't a good place to buy anything. They would be the LAST >> > > place I'd buy any test gear from. > >OK, it's no where near the same class, but they are who I bought my Fluke >from, they appear to have a good selection of what I hope is new test >equipment. I do have one rule about buying stuff at Fry's, I don't buy >anything there if I think I might want to take it back. So far I've not had >any real problems, however, the longer they've had their store up here in >Oregon, the worse their prices seem to be. It's no longer worth it to make >a trip down there based on prices. But for some things they seem to be the >best place to go if you want a good selection, and test equipment looks to >be one of those things. > > Zane > > > >

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