- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by edick＠idcomm.com

While I'd definitely have to weigh in on the side of the 'C' programmers, there are a few things that have disappointed me over the years, more with the compilers than with the general notion of 'C' as a language. As I've often said, however, "Where you sit determines what you see." I live in the microcontroller world, and the compilers vary widely in terms of functionality and quality. There's a range of compilers reaching from doing WAY too much to doing virtually nothing helpful at all. 'C' allows me to write code for these small computers/controllers that runs pretty quickly in terms of development time/effort, yet still enables me to focus my efforts on the task specifics. The compiler (hopefully) deals with the common logica constructs, e.g. iteration, comparison, etc. though it can't be relied on to produce the most compact code nor can it be expected to produce the shortest run times. Most of these compilers produce assembly language output. That means that I can take their output and whittle on at as I need to. I've seen very few of the more popular languages available for microcontrollers. There's no CC++ for the PIC, nor is there an ADA for the 68HC705. WHile there are PASCAL compilers for the more popular microcontrollers, they're not that common, and support for the various flavors of the common, e.g. 8x51-core-based varieties, of which there are literally dozens, is often left to the user. If it weren't for 'C', there'd only be assembler for most of my programming, and, frankly, if it weren't for 'C', there'd probably be few assemblers, since they're almost all written in 'C'. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 4:02 AM Subject: Re: The C programming language >>In a message dated 03/09/2000 3:19:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de writes: >> >>> I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the >>> sense of degeneration. >> >>Hey, Hans, I don't get this. C is the most versatile, flexible, and portable >>language ever devised. It permits complete control of hardware while at the >>same time allowing elegance in program design and structure. > >The key word here is "allowing" not requiring. The obfuscated C code >contest kind of invented itself. > >

26 years, 4 months

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Dumpster stories!

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

>On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 08:45:57AM -0500, John B (dylanb(a)sympatico.ca) wrote: >> >> I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. >> That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic >> residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) >> not to enter one. So... were you someone's mother in another lifetime? ;-) There are already enough laws that try to protect stupid people from themselves, while putting a real damper on those of us who have brains enough to safely engage in "hazardous" activities. Relax! A number of years ago, they filmed part of the movie "Amerika" (which was apparently about the USA being taken over by Soviets or something; I've never seen it). They had a big sale at the end of the movie, held inside the former location of a big K-mart store. People went nuts buying all the clothes and props from the movie. That night, we drove by and noticed that there was a *bunch* of stuff in the dumpsters out back. Upon further investigation, the alley was found to be blocked off with a semi trailer parked across each end. As we were in a Fiat X-1/9 at the time, that wasn't a problem; we just drove under the truck. Found a bunch of electronic odds and ends (props from the "communication van" driven by the "resistance fighters", so I'm told). Popped the removable hard top off the Fiat and started lobbing stuff in. Also found a couple of cool little Northern Telecom telephone terminals; 9" mono screens with membrane telephone keypads in front and a handset on the side, and a miniature QWERTY chicklet keyboard in a little draw that pulls out from underneath, and serial ports on the back. About the time the car was getting full, the police arrived at the near end of the alley, probably summoned by the night watchman. Since they hadn't told us to stop or anything, we just hopped in the car, drove down the alley, under the semi trailer at the far end, and off down the street. Bet they're still scratching their heads over that one. :-) Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!)

26 years, 4 months

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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

I tried hard to understand the socio-psychological dynamic that led up to the development of this pseudo-language, Ebonyx, in the minds of the west-coast (that's code for "californicated") education community's leaders. The place I arrived was at the conclusion that since the west-coast community was unable to teach the young Blacks to stay in their chairs on the few occasions on which they did attend class, they certainly couldn't teach them to read, speak, and write properly, so they were forced to classify what they, the young Blacks, did instead was another language. This was seriously muddled in the debate over whether the educators on the west coast should also be required to read, write, and speak properly. The notion of Ebonyx was their way to "throw-in-the-towel" (for those unfamiliar with U.S. boxing industry practice, this is a signal of surrender.) so they wouldn't themselves have to learn what they had shown they couldn't teach. If you ever spend any time in today's U.S. public schools, you'll be appalled at the low quality of speech which has become the norm among today's educators. When I was a pupil in the public schools, I always found my teachers able to speak better-than-average English. Today, that's no longer the case. They've become so wrapped up in being "friends" with the pupils, they've forgotten they need to set an example. I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools that should have been taught with English, e.g. organization and structure in sentences, to underscore basic grammar, and organization in writing, which certainly appears to be a dying art, are lacking, so there's no point of reference. Try asking a recent high school graduate what a gerund or an infinitive is. Then ask what the different between a present participle and a gerund is. Don't even bother to discuss sentence diagrams, since the teacher themselves don't know how to apply such tools. Foreign languages all have their own sentence structure and grammar. If a teacher can't make reference to a model their pupils must know, there's nowhere for them to go in order to teach those same characteristics in another language. It's a sad situation. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 7:44 AM Subject: Re: languages > > >On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > >> >> I think that trend to continue as long as social activists try to promote >> gibberish as language, as the ebonics debacle. > >I'd be one to agree with that. > >> I have always done well with English, and that is my field, where I earned >> two degrees, and always regretted not getting another. I do recall, >> though, that studying Latin did make things seem much easier to me, if >> only because the language forced organised thought. I think German might >> function that way also. > >Some may laugh but it was learning Pascal after years of assembler, >focal and Basics that helped improve my english as it was the first time >I got to see structure at work. Up to that point verbs and nouns were >more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. > >Allison > > >

26 years, 4 months

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Looking for an old journal article

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Doug Coward <mranalog(a)home.com> wrote: > FOR THE TRULY AMBITIOUS COLLECTORS: > "Items available for disposal" page: > http://www.chew46.freeserve.co.uk/aeroswap.html >..."GAF Ikara anti-submarine missile: I've heard of these. It's the source of the name J.M.S. used in the B5 episode "Infection" (http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/004.html). From the Lurker's Guide: Ikarra may be an Australian Aboriginal word. The Australian DSTO (Defence Sciences and Technology Organisation) developed the anti-submarine weapon "Ikara" in the 1950's. It is no longer in use in the Australian Navy, having been fired for the last time in 1990. The Brazilian Navy may still use a variation of it. Since the DSTO has a tradition of naming its products after warlike Aboriginal animals, it's plausible that the word refers to an animal. Not only "missile guidance computers", but pre-integrated-circuit missile guidance computers, depending on the exact vintage of what's in the Bristol Aero Collection. > The page also states "The Bristol Aero Collection conforms to > the rules of the UK Museum's Council and can dispose of historic > items only to "Good Homes" such as Museums operating under comparable > rules." I'd better get back to work on my incorporation papers. > In a separate search, I found this description of a Ikara: > Australian ship-launched anti-submarine missile with a > 12.5 nm range that employs a two-stage solid fuel motor > and navigates via command guidance and an autopilot. > The Aerospace Technologies of Australia, Pty., Ltd.-built > Ikara is 11 ft long with a wingspan of 5 ft and weighs 980 > lbs at takeoff. I wonder how much of that is fuel and payload? 60%? 80%? How does U.S. Airways feel about a missile in checked baggage? :-) -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 4 months

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Looking for an old journal article

by mranalog＠home.com

Hi, I've been using the used book search engines for the last year, searching for an old journal article. Afraid that I may never find the article, I decided to ask for help. I'm hoping that one of you living in the U.K. might have access to a library that has a good collection of back issues of "Memoirs and Proceedings of the Manchester Literary and Philosophical Society". The article is "The Construction of a Model Differential Analyser" by D.R. Hartree and A. Porter in the July 1935 issue. If you think you can help me obtain a copy, contact me and let's work out a trade. FOR THE TRULY AMBITIOUS COLLECTORS: I just thought I would mention this since some people on this list are interested in missle guidance computers. While searching for information on the 1911 Bristol Boxkite, I came across the web page for the Bristol Aero Collection, Cirencester, England. On their "Items available for disposal" page: http://www.chew46.freeserve.co.uk/aeroswap.html they list: "GAF Ikara anti-submarine missile: A number of complete missiles is available, without launcher." The page also states "The Bristol Aero Collection conforms to the rules of the UK Museum's Council and can dispose of historic items only to "Good Homes" such as Museums operating under comparable rules." In a separate search, I found this description of a Ikara: Australian ship-launched anti-submarine missile with a 12.5 nm range that employs a two-stage solid fuel motor and navigates via command guidance and an autopilot. The Aerospace Technologies of Australia, Pty., Ltd.-built Ikara is 11 ft long with a wingspan of 5 ft and weighs 980 lbs at takeoff. Happy Hunting, --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ====================================================

26 years, 4 months

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languages

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Not so! The subject is compound, i.eVERBS and NOUNS (the conjuction AND <makes it compound) the verb is WERE, and MORE is a predicate nominative, <i.e. a substantive (any word functioning as a NOUN) with a role of modifyin Major snippage... We still talking about that twisted pair of gramatical convolution? >> Up to that point verbs and nouns were >> more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. > >This sentence no verb! :-) I only wrote the first one. Allison

26 years, 4 months

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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

You're right in that the dictionary has the task of letting everyone know how the language IS spoken. It's also the schools' job to teach the kids in school how people DO speak, so they can do so well enough to hold their own, rather than having to be supported by the government. I believe this last part has been largely forgotten. Studies have shown that average graduates from high schools throughout the U.S. are quite incapable of reading a descriptive article and concluding even the basics about what was written. Unfortunately, it is not fair to expect these same graduates to write better than they can read and comprehend. There's why our system is failing. I can't hand a young college graduate a data book and expect him to figure out what a given device does and how it does it. Consequently, I can't use current graduates at all. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 1:22 PM Subject: Re: languages >> > Well, throw-in-the-towel is known (at least the acording >> > phrase is in wide use in Germany - just most don't know >> > the orgin), but what is Ebonyx ? > >> Ebonyx was the attempt by some boards of education in California to establish >> the slang associated with Black culture as a language so they could get funding >> to teach english as a second language. It was always a brazen attempt to get >> funding, nothing more. > >:)) > >> > Serious, ain't we are going exactly the same way with >> > programming languages as with real ones ? Just instead >> > of centuries, it took only some dozend years to go from >> > Machine code (grunting sounds) to ADA (Goethes Poems) >> *laugh* I'm not sure I'd compare any computer language to Goethe, but it's >> a good analogy... >:) > >> > and only less than 10 years to fall back to C ? > >> I think Hans is making a bit of a joke here, but he's not far from the mark. >> A living language is not a static thing. It grows. It evolves. Parts are >> added and other parts dropped as the society that speaks it changes. Until >> recently (ie the last 20 years or so) English was taught in a very prescriptive >> way - x is the correct way to speak, where x is whatever dictionary and/or >> grammar system you embrace. > >No, I'm bloody serious (beside some humorous thing). In my opinion >C (and C++) is way down the ladder and as more as I think about I >find it more and more similar to the 'real' language thing discussed >in here. > >I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the >sense of degeneration. > >I often think about what happened - why are all other languages >out classed ? Some beauty(and use)full are almost forgotten. >What happened to Pascal, Modula or Smalltalk (not to talk about >ADA which I still consider the best design ever) ? > >There's only C (no, I don't recognize C++ or Java on their own). >And interestingly a still existing COBOL population. > >> However in the late 60s (things take time to >> filter into the education system) some language experts - notably Webster's >> Dictionary among them - began to realise that language *changes* over time. >> Websters dictionary embraced a descriptive philosophy - we're not in the >> business of telling you how you SHOULD speak, only how you DO speak. > >> One of the results of this was the formation of the American Heritage >> dictionary, which clung to the prescriptive philosophy. > >Well, to late over here - Standard German has equalized most German >languages and dialects. More than 100 years of Education did succeede. > >Anyway >H. > >-- >VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen >http://www.vintage.org/vcfe >http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

26 years, 4 months

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languages (Ebonics)

by edick＠idcomm.com

There are a few characteristics, not necessarily ones of which the Black community is proud, which certainly are traceable to one-time African tribal culture. A few moments with a stack of police blotters will show that there's a really noticeable tendency among Hispanics to "burgle" outside their own community, while it appears quite common that a Black man will steal his neighbor's TV-set, only to invite the victim and his family to come over to watch the game at his house. I've read/heard that this is traceable to ancient and still-practiced custom in various west African cultures. However, I'd not recommend doing that in THIS society. That tendency to ignore the realities of life within the present culture, both legal and ethnic, is purported to have arisen as a defense against burglary charges on more than one occasion. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Wilson <wilson(a)dbit.dbit.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 1:13 PM Subject: Re: languages (Ebonics) >On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 10:55:38AM -0800, sjm wrote: >> BEV follows strict rules of grammar and word use, and has syntactic >> roots in several major west African languages like Ewe, Iwo, >> and Yoruba. It really is not gibberish at all, no matter how >> "wrong" it sounds to a native Standard American English speaker >> (me included). In some ways, it actually allows much finer grained >> shades of meaning than SAE does. > >I'd love to see an example of this! What really catches my attention is >when someone begins a sentence with "know what I'm saying?", there's a lot >of stuff like that that's really annoyingly meaningless. Also I'm not >sure how much can really be traced to Africa, since a lot of this stuff >really seems to have only cropped up in the past few generations. Ahhhh, >what ever happened to Jive? Now *that* was fun to listen to! Ehh, I mean, >that was a thing to which it was fun to listen. Never mind... > >John Wilson >D Bit

26 years, 4 months

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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

There's a reason for the old saw, "Those who can, do, while those who can't, teach." The typical teacher candidate graduated in the bottom third of his/her high school class, went to a clearly second-or-third-rate college and did poorly there. Because of the emphasis on "diversity" there has been a preference for minority candidates who relied on waivers of the customary standards to get into and through the usual educational programs, then relied on minority preferences to get past the hiring standards, and lastly, now rely on the system's unwillingness to take negative action agains a member of an ethnic minority to keep them on until they attain tenure, after which they'll do what they like, regardless. In my years on school committees I saw plenty of hoops being jumped-through by administration to meet their requirements without violating the various restrictions imposed on them by the various ethnic and cultural programs imposed from without. Unfortunately, as more of these administrators come >from minority cultures, other problems begin to surface. In the middle school attended by both my boys, there was a principal who used federal money as a justification to bring "troubled" (meaning criminal) youngsters >from other districts in with the "hope" of giving them another chance. Several of us on the steering committees tried to put an end to this, as it seemed to result in disproportionately high incident rates involving ethinically charged circumstances. I surely hope this is just evidence that the pendulum's swung too far in one direction. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 12:38 PM Subject: Re: languages >Chris, > >Good explanation, you cleared identified a part of the problem but it's >not all the student's fault. An even worse problem is that the students are >taught by teachers that aren't any better educated than the students >they're teaching. We can thanks years of preferential college admissions >and hiring practices for that. Furthermore the quality of teachers as >declined steadily with the rise in power of the NEA and other teacher's >unions since most teacher's are more concerned about their income than in >teaching. Other factors such as the decision to teach in "native languages" >haven't helped either. Every part of the educational system is lowering >it's standards to accomodate the worst (insert your choice here; student, >teacher, school system, income, etc etc). And every part of the system is >failing to support the other parts. The whole educational system is in chaos. > > I wonder if the US is the only country that is having these kinds of >problems in it's "educational" system? > > Joe > >At 09:57 AM 3/9/00 -0800, Chris wrote: >>Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >>[Stuff deleted] >> >>> I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools >>> that should have been taught with English, >> >>[more stuff deleted] >> >>I recently had the sad task of judging science fair projects from three local >>high schools. It was pathetic. Since this thread is about language skills >>I'll ignore for the moment the more or less complete lack of understanding >>of the scientific method and the extensive use of crayons in constructing >>the presentations and focus on the stellar language skills that were almost >>uniformly present across all of the entries. >> >>The short form summary is that if I'd written in the fashion of these high >>school students when I was in second grade I'd have been taken out and shot. >>Certainly there were large collections of words, some of them polysyllabic, >>but in general they were not arranged into anything that was parsable as >>an english sentence. Written materials depended on spelling correctors >>to eliminate spelling errors, sometimes with frightening yet amusing >>consequences ("...our science fairy teacher..."). >> >>There were a few entries which were clever, well constructed, well executed >>and innovative. Talking with the instructors I learned that these were >>from the bright but bored students who twiddle their thumbs while their >>neanderthal classmates struggled with basic coursework (in California the >>instructional system is geared to address the needs of the lowest common >>denominator; resources are generally not available for exceptional >>students). The entry judged Best of Show was constructed by one such >>student in a few hours on the day immediately preceding the judging. >> >>> It's a sad situation. >> >>It's beyond sad. It's criminal. >> >>FWIW, California is now going to start imposing financial penalties upon >>high schools whose students do not perform at some minimal level. The >>problem, of course, is that the students are already lacking fundamental >>skills that they should have received at the elementary level, thus >>penalizing the high schools is not going to fix the problem. Rather, it >>will cause even more resources to be diverted to already unsalvageable >>students while penalizing those who actually have a chance to do something >>useful with their lives. >> >>*Grumble*, >>Chris >>-- >>Chris Kennedy >>chris(a)mainecoon.com >>http://www.mainecoon.com >>PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 >> >

26 years, 4 months

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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

That's not what is going on here! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland <jim(a)calico.litterbox.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 12:57 PM Subject: Re: languages >> >> allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote: >> > Up to that point verbs and nouns were >> > more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. >> >> This sentence no verb! :-) > >Erm. Hmm. You can construe that sentance to have a verb, but it doesn't >make any sense if you do. :) Verb, the word, has become a verb of late. >To verb another word, you make it into a verb. So if you verb verb (ugh) >you're saying your sentance doesn't verb. (double ugh). :) > >Now you've done it. You've got me playing word games. :) > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! >-----------------------------------------------------------------------

26 years, 4 months

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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

That assessment is quite correct! What's not so obvious, is that the fact that we have a special class of student, commonly known as "speakers of other languages" hence the term ESOL for Education for Speakers of Other Languages, is a federal-court-mandated effort to provide this somewhat nebulous group of pupils with an additional opprotunity to secure the education to which the constitution apparently entitles them. However, what's not so widely recognized is that this program has priority over mainstream classes. Consequently, as more kids' parents find a way to get their children so-classified, local school admistrators (most the principals) are forced to provide limited-size classes for the ESOL program. Since the mandate is not accompanied by any additional funding, the administrator has to take teachers from the mainstream classes and assign them to the ESOL program where class size is limited to 22 pupils per teacher rather than the more common 30-35 seen in mainstream classes. That's why so many people were so PI**ED about the "EBONYX" (as it was spelled in our local papers, though that doesn't make it correct, by any means) thing. This would have mandated that all users of that particular pseudo-language were entitled to smaller classes, i.e. more personal attention, than the mainstream. While I don't doubt for a moment that there might be potential for great benefit to those students qualifying for the smaller class-sizes, it's taking those resources from the already overstressed mainstream education program. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland <jim(a)calico.litterbox.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 12:38 PM Subject: Re: languages >> Well, throw-in-the-towel is known (at least the acording >> phrase is in wide use in Germany - just most don't know >> the orgin), but what is Ebonyx ? > >Ebonyx was the attempt by some boards of education in California to establish >the slang associated with Black culture as a language so they could get funding >to teach english as a second language. It was always a brazen attempt to get >funding, nothing more. > > >> >> And, Jim, for the Grammer ting, don't forget that English >> is a bastard based on (at least) 5 languages from 3 different >> language families (No Offense Ment). > >None taken. You're absolutely correct. English took much of its structure >from Norweigan, and much of its vocabulary from Norman French, and simplified >both. It picks up vocabulary from everywhere, and when that fails words are >simply made up. I'm thinking here of Scuba and Radar, wich both started out >as acronyms and are now ordinary nouns. > >*snip* > >> Serious, ain't we are going exactly the same way with >> programming languages as with real ones ? Just instead >> of centuries, it took only some dozend years to go from >> Machine code (grunting sounds) to ADA (Goethes Poems) > >*laugh* I'm not sure I'd compare any computer language to Goethe, but it's >a good analogy... > > >> and only less than 10 years to fall back to C ? >> >> Gruss >> H. > >I think Hans is making a bit of a joke here, but he's not far from the mark. >A living language is not a static thing. It grows. It evolves. Parts are >added and other parts dropped as the society that speaks it changes. Until >recently (ie the last 20 years or so) English was taught in a very prescriptive >way - x is the correct way to speak, where x is whatever dictionary and/or >grammar system you embrace. > >However in the late 60s (things take time to >filter into the education system) some language experts - notably Webster's >Dictionary among them - began to realise that language *changes* over time. >Websters dictionary embraced a descriptive philosophy - we're not in the >business of telling you how you SHOULD speak, only how you DO speak. > >One of the results of this was the formation of the American Heritage >dictionary, which clung to the prescriptive philosophy. > >Ultimately I think the descriptive folks are correct. While I agree with Dick >and others that as the English language is simplified it looses alot of its >elegance and beauty, I'd rather see that than the total stagnation that results >with rigid prescriptiveism. A great example of what happens to a language when >it is artificially prevented from changing is French. With the establishment >of the French Acadamy and the legislation against borrowings from other >languages, in a few hundred years French went from the language of diplomacy >to a linguistic backwater, populated with grotesque and awkward words created >to describe things where a borrowing had been previously used. > >None of this changes the fact that today's schools are doing a lousy job >teaching people to communicate. (In the US). One need only look at the web >to see this - US domains which are so cluttered and badly designed and where >the text is so obtuse and irrellivant that the entire page is useless abound. > >(Yes, in this graphical age, I think page layout should be taught alongside >some understanding of grammar and spelling). Schools are instead focusing on >self esteem building, instead of teaching and letting students develop self >esteem when they *succeed*. Obviously grinding a student's ego into the floor >every time they mess up is the wrong way to go about teaching anything, but >so is pushing self esteem above education. *sigh* If I had children, I would >definately feel ripped off by todays schools. > >Anyway, I've gone on much longer in this message than intended, but in addition >to hitting a nerve this thread also hit stuff I studied in college, so... :) > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! >-----------------------------------------------------------------------

26 years, 4 months

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languages

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- "Merle K. Peirce" <at258(a)osfn.org> wrote: > I do recall, though, that studying Latin did make things seem much > easier to me, if only because the language forced organised thought. Ditto on the Latin - 4 years in High School. I think in my case, since I had no decent formal training in English (my native language), learning Latin grammar produced an understanding of English grammar. I do know that learning Latin made it easier to learn Greek. I had an idea of what sorts of phrases and subordinate clauses exist, and so knew to ask how these concepts translated to Greek ("cum clauses", for example, or the many uses of infinitives) > ...I learned the Church Latin pronunciation, which annoys everyone else, to > my gratification... Ack! Heretic! :-) My Latin teacher told us a story of when _he_ went to out High School in the 1960's - they learned Church Latin and it was a supreme effort of will not to laugh when conjugating the present tense of the verb "scio", to know. For the confused reader at home, it goes... "scio, scis, scit, scimus, scistis, sciunt" and in Classical Latin C's are hard, giving us "skeeo, skiss, skit...". Church Latin uses a soft C here, resulting in "sheeo, shiss...". Try *that* in a room full of sophmores. -ethan P.S. - if I've messed up the full conjugation, my apologies; it's off the top of my head, 18 years later. The nugget of the story, however, is accurate. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 4 months

2
1
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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

Not so! The subject is compound, i.eVERBS and NOUNS (the conjuction AND makes it compound) the verb is WERE, and MORE is a predicate nominative, i.e. a substantive (any word functioning as a NOUN) with a role of modifying the subject. The preposition OF points to ABSTRACTION which modifies the predicate nominative. The past participle NEEDED modifies the term ABSTRACTION in its role as a modifier of MORE, which modifies the subjects. THAN compounds the modification by the preposition by providing a second object of the preposition OF, which further modifies the term ABSTRACTION by limiting it. Now, that's more detail than one normally needs to understand the lines in the daily paper's comics, but there are sentences, more likely to appear on the editorial page than in the sports section, which often deserve and too often require careful analysis prior to concluding one knows what's being said. You may disagree with that analysis, but it certainly does underscore that the quoted sentence is complete. It also serves as an example of the numerous devices about which current high-school graduates know nothing. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 12:14 PM Subject: Re: languages >allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote: >> Up to that point verbs and nouns were >> more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. > >This sentence no verb! :-)

26 years, 4 months

1
0
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languages

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> projects with it, be able to word-process but not necessarily spell-check <> be able to run good educational software. I'm already biased towards a Ma <> Plus (and own one), but certainly ready for suggestions. NeXT? MicroVax <> 3100? Cost, hardware and software, is a factor, of course. Why only one box? Why not several each with it's attributes would induce a greater range of thinking. Also applying similar skills to different boxes teaches troubleshooting and similarity of use. The latter is funny as I had someone (an adult) today tell me their system had to have Word to write a memo as they didn't know how to use Write... Write is stripped down Word! Lazy! With the common classics like Apples, CPM crates and all you can get a lot of different things to investigate. If you can teach anything, teach them how to find out when the answer is not obvious or in the standard books. Learn how to use information sources, printed and electronic. Being able to figure it out is believe it or not a very valuable skill in this cookie cutter world. Allison

26 years, 4 months

1
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was :-( , now :-) Re: PDP-11/05 with RX02 :-(

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 2:54 PM Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 with RX02 :-( >> >> I can't find my book on the M8256 (RX211) so I don't know if the switches >> are set right. >> >> I have a PDP-11/05 here that works fine and boots up RT11 or XXDP on an RX01 >> with an RX11. When I replace the RX01 system with an RX211 and an RX02 and >> try and boot RT11 the CPU hangs up at: >> >> 173546 , run light on. Requires a full reset to clear. >> >> I have tried other RX211s, RX02s, and cables and the same problem occurs. >> >> The disk is being accessed for a little while (4 or 5 "clicks") and dies.... > >A few quick things to check : > >1) You are trying to boot an RX02 version of RT11, not an RX01. While the >RX02 can read/write RX01 disks, the RX211 and RX11 need rather different >software to drive them, so an RX02 can't _boot_ a bootable RX01 disk. > I know. I was trying RX02 RT11v4. BL >2) You've got the DIP switch in the RX02 (on the upper, controller, >board) set correctly. I'm pretty sure that how to set this is on the web >somewhere, but if you can't find anything (and nobody else beats me to >it), I'll try to find the fine manual. > I guess so. The RX02s are from LSI systems. >3) The RX211 is a DMA (NPR) device. You just said the magic words! I have never been blessed with a RX211 before (always big drives or RX01s). Many thanks for saving me hours of going through boxes to find out it was a NPR device. Thanks again. <very happy PDP-11/05 systems now> john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com >You need to cut the jumper between >pins CA1 and CB1 on the backplane of the slot where the RX211 is >installed. That's the most likely problem if you've just pulled an RX11 >and replaced it by an RX211. > >-tony > >

26 years, 4 months

1
0
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PDP-11/05 with RX02 :-(

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com wrote: John B. writes: > >I have a PDP-11/05... replace the RX01 system with an RX211 and an RX02... > To get to *real* basics: > > The RX11 is a programmed I/O device. The RX211 is (as usually used) a > DMA device. You'll probably have to remove the NPR continuity wire across > the slot when you put the RX211 in it, and ensure that this signal is > continuous up to that far too. I doubt you are short of double-height grant cards, but I have a wad of non-DEC ones because SRC used to ship our own with every Unibus COMBOARD. Let me know if you're interested. When I get my flatbed scanner back from loan, I'll add both of our designs to the "field guide". -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 4 months

1
0
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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

You're right, of course, Allison, but I love to bitch about the way the nation's schools are destroying our language and our future. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 11:07 AM Subject: Re: languages >An aside... > >I find this discussion interesting and agree with the demise of modern >language but, this is a great stretch from discussing classic computers. > >Of course if we drift into the structured language debate of the late 70s >we will all require asbestos/kevlar/ceramic britches. ;) > >Allison > >

26 years, 4 months

2
1
0 0

PDP-11/05 with RX02 :-(

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> >I have a PDP-11/05 here that works fine and boots up RT11 or XXDP on an RX01 >with an RX11. When I replace the RX01 system with an RX211 and an RX02 and >try and boot RT11 the CPU hangs up at: > >173546 , run light on. Requires a full reset to clear. > >I have tried other RX211s, RX02s, and cables and the same problem occurs. To get to *real* basics: The RX11 is a programmed I/O device. The RX211 is (as usually used) a DMA device. You'll probably have to remove the NPR continuity wire across the slot when you put the RX211 in it, and ensure that this signal is continuous up to that far too. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

PDP-11/05 with RX02 :-(

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

I can't find my book on the M8256 (RX211) so I don't know if the switches are set right. I have a PDP-11/05 here that works fine and boots up RT11 or XXDP on an RX01 with an RX11. When I replace the RX01 system with an RX211 and an RX02 and try and boot RT11 the CPU hangs up at: 173546 , run light on. Requires a full reset to clear. I have tried other RX211s, RX02s, and cables and the same problem occurs. The disk is being accessed for a little while (4 or 5 "clicks") and dies.... If anyone here has a quick "config" fix I would appreciate it otherwise I guess I will dive into the boxes of manuals/fiche later today. Current 11/05 config: Main CPU M9312 w DY rom RX211 with RX02 8K core ODT and passes diagnostics. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com

26 years, 4 months

2
1
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VCF Europa Update

by dastar＠siconic.com

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1944 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000306/e4449e6f/at…

26 years, 4 months

13
25
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AMD 1820-1701

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Newbie question----got a bunch of boards from HP terminals [2640 and <2645A's] <that I thought had either 8008 or 8080A chips----boards are marked <"processor" and the socketed processor chip is brown or white ceramic <with a gold "lid"---only markings are 1820-1701 on one line and I assume <a serial # on the next [7629P, 7707P, 78126GP, etc]--also has what looks <to be the AMD logo---up to the right slanting "arrow" shape. < Some of the identical looking boards do have 8008 or 8080A <installed---What do I have here?? The same thing with a HP "house number". The older cpus were often ceramic/gold until later and better plastics or cheaper grey or brown ceramic started to appear. Allison

26 years, 4 months

6
6
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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland <jim(a)calico.litterbox.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 11:18 AM Subject: Re: languages >*snip* > >> I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools >> that should have been taught with English, e.g. organization and structure >> in sentences, to underscore basic grammar, and organization in writing, >> which certainly appears to be a dying art, are lacking, so there's no point >> of reference. Try asking a recent high school graduate what a gerund or an >> infinitive is. Then ask what the different between a present participle and >> a gerund is. Don't even bother to discuss sentence diagrams, since the >> teacher themselves don't know how to apply such tools. Foreign languages >> all have their own sentence structure and grammar. If a teacher can't make >> reference to a model their pupils must know, there's nowhere for them to go >> in order to teach those same characteristics in another language. >> >> It's a sad situation. >> >> Dick > >I agree with the fundamental premise of this post, but I have to disagree with >the example of grammar. See, classical grammer, what most of us DID learn in >high school, was actually lifted from latin grammar. It never fit English very >well. In the last 20 years or so there have arisen new systems of grammar >which understand a word order language like English far better than Latin >grammar, which was designed for a word-ending language where word order is >irrelevant, ever could. Of course, THESE grammars are not well taught either, >but the fact that a modern high school student doesn't know gerunds and present >participles may well be because that whole system of grammar is no longer >taught. It never was that useful to begin with. > First of all, you must consider that, unlike French and Spanish, English is not a Latin-derived language, but rather a Germaic language. It's true that English is a language that has developed over the centuries into one which does allow word order to effect sentence meaning, unlike most other modern languages. However, having seen MANY sentences written by college graduates to be lacking in subject or verb, or grossly misusing predicate nominatives or adjectives, I have to say that the BASIC STRUCTURE that was taught by simple tools like sentence diagrams (remember them?) tended to teach people who were taught that structure to write complete sentences. Along the way, it was taught that one shouldn't split infinitives, end sentences with prepositions, and so on. The lack of that basic structure is "out there" in the newspapers, magazines and, even worse, in the common speech observable in radio and television programs every day. I have to disagree with the notion that it's not important to know whether a word is a gerund or a participle. Knowing that they exist means knowing that there's a difference, hence, serves as an aid in using them correctly. > >Jim Strickland >jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! >-----------------------------------------------------------------------

26 years, 4 months

1
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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

Actually, I've observed the same thing here in Colorado, though the financial penalty for sub-par students hasn't caught on yet. I've tried to figure out whether there isn't a cultural bias among our seemingly increasing Hispanic population, comprising 43% of our student population. Hispanics are culturally biased not exactly against education, but perhaps against getting an education when you can be getting money instead. There's some hint of that, but it's certainly not going to be studied in these days of political-correctness, so it probably won't be fixed if it is a causal influence. Perhaps that's a factor in California as well. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Chris Kennedy <chris(a)mainecoon.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 11:14 AM Subject: Re: languages >Richard Erlacher wrote: > >[Stuff deleted] > >> I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools >> that should have been taught with English, > >[more stuff deleted] > >I recently had the sad task of judging science fair projects from three local >high schools. It was pathetic. Since this thread is about language skills >I'll ignore for the moment the more or less complete lack of understanding >of the scientific method and the extensive use of crayons in constructing >the presentations and focus on the stellar language skills that were almost >uniformly present across all of the entries. > >The short form summary is that if I'd written in the fashion of these high >school students when I was in second grade I'd have been taken out and shot. >Certainly there were large collections of words, some of them polysyllabic, >but in general they were not arranged into anything that was parsable as >an english sentence. Written materials depended on spelling correctors >to eliminate spelling errors, sometimes with frightening yet amusing >consequences ("...our science fairy teacher..."). > >There were a few entries which were clever, well constructed, well executed >and innovative. Talking with the instructors I learned that these were >from the bright but bored students who twiddle their thumbs while their >neanderthal classmates struggled with basic coursework (in California the >instructional system is geared to address the needs of the lowest common >denominator; resources are generally not available for exceptional >students). The entry judged Best of Show was constructed by one such >student in a few hours on the day immediately preceding the judging. > >> It's a sad situation. > >It's beyond sad. It's criminal. > >FWIW, California is now going to start imposing financial penalties upon >high schools whose students do not perform at some minimal level. The >problem, of course, is that the students are already lacking fundamental >skills that they should have received at the elementary level, thus >penalizing the high schools is not going to fix the problem. Rather, it >will cause even more resources to be diverted to already unsalvageable >students while penalizing those who actually have a chance to do something >useful with their lives. > >*Grumble*, >Chris >-- >Chris Kennedy >chris(a)mainecoon.com >http://www.mainecoon.com >PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97

26 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

testing

by stevemas＠persys.com

testing 1, 2, 3 --Steve Mastrianni

26 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

languages

by ghldbrd＠ccp.com

Interesting dialog on languages . . . . I myself have barely mastered English, american style. Somewhere along the way I took three years of French in High School, the result being that my English grades shot through the roof. Seems learning a foreign language helps one master English grammar. Maybe the problem is that one can't speak correct English in the first place. As for the Morse code, I've talked to many people who's answer was "I don't think I can learn the code." It isn't a matter of skill -- five year old kids have learned Morse code. I call it a case of 'wanna'. If you wanna you can learn anything. But since the FCC deregulated the Amateur licencing structure, getting 5 wpm is fairly easy, if you wanna. Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP

26 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

AMD 1820-1701

by ip500＠roanoke.infi.net

Newbie question----got a bunch of boards from HP terminals [2640 and 2645A's] that I thought had either 8008 or 8080A chips----boards are marked "processor" and the socketed processor chip is brown or white ceramic with a gold "lid"---only markings are 1820-1701 on one line and I assume a serial # on the next [7629P, 7707P, 78126GP, etc]--also has what looks to be the AMD logo---up to the right slanting "arrow" shape. Some of the identical looking boards do have 8008 or 8080A installed---What do I have here?? Thanks, Craig

26 years, 4 months

7
8
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PDP-11/45 Board Issues

by robinm＠rpi.edu

OK, I think I've pretty much decided that it's best to give a shot at rebuilding the M8108. For one thing, it's going to be a lot cheaper. To this end, could someone email me the prints for this board (or otherwise direct me to a URL where they can be found)? > > > Mine has a printed label across the top of the box labelling the slots, > > > which says, on the slot containing the M8107, "If KT11C option [i.e. the > > > MMU] not present, use M8116 S J B in this slot." > > > > Is the M8116 a simple jumper (a la grant continuity card)? I think that's > > probably the best move to kludge one of those together, if it's simple > > enough. > > No, it's a hex height card with address buffer chips on it. The schematic > is not that complex, but the board is not just connections. OK, unless it's really simple, I guess that's out. > > Memory management is not all that important to me. > > It will be if you get any peripherals and want to run an OS. Granted, but I think that's a long way off.. :-( Thanks, Michael

26 years, 4 months

2
1
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PDP-11/45 Board Issues

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Michael Robinson <robinm(a)rpi.edu> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 11:07 PM Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 Board Issues >OK, I think I've pretty much decided that it's best to give a shot at >rebuilding the M8108. For one thing, it's going to be a lot cheaper. To >this end, could someone email me the prints for this board (or otherwise >direct me to a URL where they can be found)? I haven't been following this list lately but.... I just set aside a set of 11/45 boards for Kevin McQuiggin here... if you can wait a couple of days, there is a strong chance I can come up with a set (or at least replace the bad boards) for you. Please contact me off the list. I have a PDP-11/45 with FPU running (just got the fast memory!).. nice mini to play on. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com

26 years, 4 months

2
1
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VCF Europa Update

by edick＠idcomm.com

You're quite right, Hans, people try to "get by" whenever they can. English as used in the U.S. is a special case, however. For the convenience of the ever-lower-educated personalities in the media, the functional vocabulary the part people routinely use ) has shrunk from about 100 words to somewhere near 35. That leads to contextual definition of those words, which, in turn, gives rise to comments such as "... it depends on what your definition of 'is' is ... " as used by our slippery chief executive. People still have all the same things to say. They just use fewer words with which to say them. This leads to a really poor communication process, and it's VERY pervasive, i.e. it shows up in all phases of life. Of course, it's wonderful for lawyers, since they get to collect money for arguing out what we meant when we entered into an agreement. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 4:47 AM Subject: Re: VCF Europa Update >> It hasn't helped me. I took 5 years of college German and speak less than >> the average German 2 year old. Honestly, it's humiliating, because I'm >> still in the habit of telling people that I know some German...only to >> stumble on the most basic words and sentence structure. I think it would >> come back pretty quick, but I don't have the time (or energy) to study it >> on my own, and very little opportunity to use it in a practical setting >> (despite Hans' brave attempt to try to understand my gibberish). > >That's part of the deal - if you pretend to understand >my English, I'll do the same about your German... :)) > >No, serious, German isn't that hard to learn, millions >of kids over here are proof that it's easy enough to >be done even at toddlers age :)) > >Well, Now realy serious: All you missing is some practice >so come over for VCFe and help Sallam in his speech. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen >http://www.vintage.org/vcfe >http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

26 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

AMD 1820-1701

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Craig Smith <ip500(a)roanoke.infi.net> wrote: > Newbie question----got a bunch of boards from HP terminals [2640 and > 2645A's] > that I thought had either 8008 or 8080A chips----boards are marked > "processor" and the socketed processor chip is brown or white ceramic 2640 (and maybe 2644, I can't remember) terminals have 8008s, 2641/2645/2648 terminals have 8080s (on different processor boards of course). An 8080 would likely be in a 40-pin DIP (Dual In-line Package, meaning two rows of pins). An 8008 would be in a smaller DIP but I can't remember how small off the top of my head. > with a gold "lid"---only markings are 1820-1701 on one line and I assume > a serial # on the next [7629P, 7707P, 78126GP, etc]--also has what looks 18xx-xxxx is an HP component part number (if you buy enough chips, you can get the manufacturer to stamp them with your part number too), and the 7xxx is probably a date code (two digits of year and two digits of week-within-year). > to be the AMD logo---up to the right slanting "arrow" shape. > Some of the identical looking boards do have 8008 or 8080A > installed---What do I have here?? Some boards made with HP house-marked AMD parts, some boards made with Intel parts? -Frank McConnell

26 years, 4 months

2
1
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AMD 1820-1701

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On March 7, Frank McConnell wrote: > 2640 (and maybe 2644, I can't remember) terminals have 8008s, > 2641/2645/2648 terminals have 8080s (on different processor boards of > course). An 8080 would likely be in a 40-pin DIP (Dual In-line > Package, meaning two rows of pins). An 8008 would be in a smaller > DIP but I can't remember how small off the top of my head. It's an 18-pinner if I recall correctly. -Dave McGuire

26 years, 4 months

1
0
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VCF Europa Update

by edick＠idcomm.com

Don't feel bad about your inability to speak German after only a few years' formal education. Nowadays, American students aren't even taught enough about their own language, a version of English, that they can read a few paragraphs and understand what it was about, nor can they write more than a paragraph about a single subject, before the "stream of consciousnes" takes over and all purpose is lost. I have two boys in their first few years of "higher" education and, having met some of the people now entrusted with passing along an "education" to them and others, I find them sadly lacking. They speak badly, read little and fail miserably to express themselves succinctly and coherently in writing. Current generation textbooks are showing the decline of the spoken language here. Sadly, the average German 15-year old not only speaks better German than our average 35-year-old speaks english, but he speaks better English than that same 35-year-old. Fifteen years ago, the average American had sufficient command of English that he routinely used on the order of a hundred words to express himself. Today's average is closer to 35 words. No wonder nobody knows what's being said! If you're making an honest effort in Europe, people will put up with your deificiencies. If you expect them to speak your language, you're in for a hard time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney <af-list(a)wfi-inc.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 9:00 PM Subject: Re: VCF Europa Update Christian, It hasn't helped me. I took 5 years of college German and speak less than the average German 2 year old. Honestly, it's humiliating, because I'm still in the habit of telling people that I know some German...only to stumble on the most basic words and sentence structure. I think it would come back pretty quick, but I don't have the time (or energy) to study it on my own, and very little opportunity to use it in a practical setting (despite Hans' brave attempt to try to understand my gibberish). I still have a large bookshelf full of German classics; someday, someday. Aaron > Servus Hans, > > I warned Sellam about this but he said he's willing to go ahead with it! > ;-) The cat's out of the bag now! I know well what it's like to try to > learn German and after about eight years of periodic, unofficial, random > self-teaching I can just about speak short simple sentences. If German was > still taught in the schools around here I would have attempted to get > tutoring would be much better I think. If he does in fact come to > understand spoken High German he'll get confused hearing the Bavarian > tongue though. I know! ;-) Heh heh heh . . . > > Bis sp?ter, Chris > -- -- > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian > Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ >

26 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

PDP-11/45 Board Issues

by robinm＠rpi.edu

Hello all, My electronics club recently became the proud owner of a PDP-11/45. Unfortunately, it's not in the best of condition. One of the boards, an M8108 (apparently a memory-managment module) is damaged. Well, actually, it is split in two along the card fingers. After some careful inspection, I have determined that it's probably not possible to repair. Anyone know what will happen if I fire up the machine without this board? We have no peripherals, so we're basically interested in toggling in code and will be satisfied without an OS. If we exclude this card, do we need to toss a NPG card into that spot? Before anyone asks, no, we don't have the printsets. I think this machine is second-second hand, so the previous owner (RPI) didn't have the prints either. Much of what we know of this machine has been determined with a continuity checker... Michael Robinson robinm(a)rpi.edu RPI Electronics Club

26 years, 4 months

3
4
0 0

AMD 1820-1701

by edick＠idcomm.com

I can't tell you much about this but I've had countless HP boards with part numbers of 1820-something. I went to the trouble of getting a cross-reference for IBM part numbers when I was working on their stuff, (their numbers were 237-xxxx) but I've never had enough HP stuff to warrant the effort. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Craig Smith <ip500(a)roanoke.infi.net> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 6:39 PM Subject: AMD 1820-1701 >Newbie question----got a bunch of boards from HP terminals [2640 and >2645A's] >that I thought had either 8008 or 8080A chips----boards are marked >"processor" and the socketed processor chip is brown or white ceramic >with a gold "lid"---only markings are 1820-1701 on one line and I assume >a serial # on the next [7629P, 7707P, 78126GP, etc]--also has what looks >to be the AMD logo---up to the right slanting "arrow" shape. > Some of the identical looking boards do have 8008 or 8080A >installed---What do I have here?? > Thanks, Craig

26 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

Otrona Attache available

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Tom Jennings has an Otrona Attache, "not 8:16, plain CP/M, in great shape with one small exception, with manuals and lots of software." He's got it on eBay now but there's no action so far, so if it doesn't find a bidder he'll release it for shipping and handling from Tucson, AZ. Contact him at <tomj(a)wps.com>. - John

26 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

PDP-11/45 Board Issues

by robinm＠rpi.edu

OK, The M8108 is in *really* bad shape. As I said, it's split along the card fingers, which means that just about every line going to the bus is broken. It also has a few chips that have been shattered, both along the break and elsewhere on the board. I, for one, don't have the skill to fix it. > >It is possible to run an 11/45 without the MMU, but in that case you need > >a System Address Jumper (M8116 IIRC) that goes in place of one of the 2 > >MMU modules, the other MMU slot being empty. > > Mine has a printed label across the top of the box labelling the slots, > which says, on the slot containing the M8107, "If KT11C option [i.e. the > MMU] not present, use M8116 S J B in this slot." Is the M8116 a simple jumper (a la grant continuity card)? I think that's probably the best move to kludge one of those together, if it's simple enough. Memory management is not all that important to me. > I have CPU and MMU prints only (no manuals or FPU prints) which I am very > slowly scanning. Among the few fragments I have done so far is the M8108, > so it would be easy for me to provide that to you if you think it might > help. Kevin, I'd be interested to see the M8108 fragments. If you have it, I'd also be interested (probably moreso) in the M8116. Thanks, Michael

26 years, 4 months

2
1
0 0

PDP emulation & V7

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> V7 doesn't run. More precisely, it boots and starts the kernel but it <> immediately panics. I can't remember what the message was; it's a long <> time since I tried it. <> < <I've seen this too but I got it going (late) last night. <I think it was with the E11 simulator and I set the <CPU to "70" (or maybe 45). It boots to the "#" prompt. <If you exit it starts timesharing. The root password is <"root". The username is root and the password is pdp. Just booted mine on real hardware (11/73 system). Allison

26 years, 4 months

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PDP emulation & V7

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Mar 6, 16:43, Kirk Davis wrote: > > > V7 doesn't run. More precisely, it boots and starts the kernel but it > > immediately panics. I can't remember what the message was; it's a long > > time since I tried it. > > I've seen this too but I got it going (late) last night. > I think it was with the E11 simulator and I set the > CPU to "70" (or maybe 45). It boots to the "#" prompt. > If you exit it starts timesharing. Thanks, Kirk -- I'll try that. As soon as I can get roud the back of the 11, anyway :-) Meanwhile I'll just keep it running on the 11/23. > The root password is "root". Mine's not one of the images from PUPS, so it's not the same :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 4 months

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Update to RT-11v2 docs online

by af-list＠wfi-inc.com

Hi all, Per requests, and to satisfy my own curiosity, I've posted PDF files of the RT-11 system reference manual alongside the tiff images. These contain the images with the text underneath (i.e. you actually view scans of the original manual but it's fully searchable). A little bigger than the straigt tiff images, but it's nice to be able to execute a find... I tried to do an OCR only version of it, which *looked* very nice. The problem was that processing an old manual, on yellowing paper, well, it wasn't too accurate when dealing with punctuation. Which kind of blew any chance of a hands-free OCR, since it was turning colons into t's and so on. After a few hours of hand-correcting through chapter 3, I gave up. Any other suggestions are welcome, thanks to all the good feedback so far... Cheers, Aaron Oh yeah, it's available at www.retrobytes.org

26 years, 4 months

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FW: DEC EQUIPMENT FOR SALE

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

I guess some people have problems adjusting to the idea that computers have no problems whatsoever with lower case these days. ;-) Found on Usenet. Reply directly to him if interested. -=-=- <snip> -=-=- On Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:24:19 -0500, in vmsnet.decus.lugs you wrote: >>From: "Chris Bracken" <sales(a)southeasterndata.com> >>Newsgroups: vmsnet.decus.lugs >>Subject: DEC EQUIPMENT FOR SALE >>Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:24:19 -0500 >>Organization: Access Orlando (407) 895-1200 >>Lines: 8 >>Message-ID: <8a104j$neb$1(a)news.ao.net> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: dyn41.max4.ao.net >>X-Trace: news.ao.net 952370132 24011 208.243.146.107 (6 Mar 2000 19:15:32 GMT) >>X-Complaints-To: usenet(a)news.ao.net >>NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Mar 2000 19:15:32 GMT >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 >>Path: news.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!sdd.hp.com!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!206.228.179.2!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news-in-west1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.ao.net!not-for-mail >>Xref: news.jps.net vmsnet.decus.lugs:19 >> >>I HAVE FOR SALE A EXTENSIVE LIST OF DEC MAINFRAME,NETWORKING AND PRINTER >>EQUIPMENT THAT WAS RECENTLY DIENSTALLED FROM A WORKING ENVIROMENT AND IS IN >>VERY GOOD COSMETIC CONDITION. THE EQUIPMENT IS LOCATED IN ORLANDO,FLORIDA IF >>YOU WOULD LIKE TO RECEIVE A EQUIPMENT LIST PLEASE PROVIDE ME WITH YUR FAX #. >>THE COMPANY NAME IS SOUTHEASTERN DATA INC. LOCATED IN ORLANDO, FL. 32804 >>PHONE#-407-522-5075/FAX-407-522-5074----LET ME KNOW, THANKYOU. CHRIS >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."

26 years, 4 months

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PDP emulation

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<V7 doesn't run. More precisely, it boots and starts the kernel but it <immediately panics. I can't remember what the message was; it's a long <time since I tried it. Ill boot mine and see. I have to do a boot foreign from RT-11 as apparently there is no boot on the pack. A copy of your mail as a reminder.... ;) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 02:19:15 GMT From: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) X-Beware: experimental sendmail.cf 940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT Message-Id: <9803170219.ZM17332(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) "Re: V7 startup" (Mar 16, 20:44) References: <199803170144.AA16350(a)world.std.com> Reply-To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Subject: Re: V7 startup Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: R Hi, Allison. > >>>>>< @unix <<<<<<< > > THAT'S what I was trying to remember! > > Allison If you're running V7 on real hardware, could you do me a favour once you get it running, please? The normal boot sequence for V7 is to hardware boot the drive, which get the @ prompt, then type 'boot' which runs the 'boot' program, which has a ':' prompt, then specify the drive, partition, and kernel file: @boot boot :rl(0,0)unix Most systems then come up single-user, and you need to type CTRL-Z or CTRL-D to continue multi-user. That might involve also typing in the date/time, and often it's all in uppercase until the right tty driver is running. Lots of systems also do an icheck on the disks before actually starting -- this takes a while. In case you didn't know, to stop it you do # kill -1 1 which kills init and returns to single-user level; then you type # sync a couple of times to flush the disk buffers from memory to disk, and then you can halt it safely. What I want to know is, does that version respond to 'boot' and does it do the disk checks? ------------------------- Ok, it's doesn't boot from the pack so I need a RT-11 to act as primary boot to acess the device at some higher level. My 11/73 does know DL boot though. If I try to boot directly it says non-bootable. Invalid boot block I'd guess. Once I'm at the boot @ (looks just like odt!) either @unix or @boot boot :rl(0,0)unix Also works. I also have the advantage that I have RT-11 for my systems and if that runs it's a good head start as you know the hardware works. <It probably isn't memory, then. It's probably down to something (maybe a <driver) that checks for something like the presence of a register, finds i <on my 11/73, and makes an erroneous assumption. V7 predates the 11/73 by <quite a way, so that wouldn't be too surprising. The way I'm using it the assumption is that it's minimally 11/34 or better. Keep in mind the primary IO, DLV11, RL02 are all direct equivalent to the 11/34 and other unibus boards to the register level. Since it runs I must be doing something right. Allison

26 years, 4 months

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PDP emulation

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Mar 6, 9:01, CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com wrote: > >> I tried swapping my M8186 (11/23) for M8192 (11/73) but it doesn't run. > >> Maybe I need to rebuild the kernel (I've got an original distribution, not > >> one of the images from PUPS), but perhaps it would work with more memory or > >> by swapping RLV11 for RLV12. > > >Cpu doesn't run or doesn't run V7? The image I have only wants some 256k > >of ram out of all teh installed ram. I get the impression it was > >configured for an 11/34 or similar and that is mostly a 11/23 save for the > >11/23 mmu can go to 22 bits. V7 doesn't run. More precisely, it boots and starts the kernel but it immediately panics. I can't remember what the message was; it's a long time since I tried it. > The V6 and V7 images currently available have device drivers that > were built for Unibus systems. They expect a Unibus Map to be present > for accessing memory above 256Kbytes (many of the drivers were built to > always expect a Unibus map). The "safe" thing to do on a Q-bus system > (or an emulated Q-bus system, like Supnik's emulator) is to run with 256Kbytes > or less. It probably isn't memory, then. It's probably down to something (maybe a driver) that checks for something like the presence of a register, finds it on my 11/73, and makes an erroneous assumption. V7 predates the 11/73 by quite a way, so that wouldn't be too surprising. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 4 months

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old, old, old computer (fwd)

by vcf＠siconic.com

Here's what sounds like a Wang PC up for grabs. Please reply to the original sender. Reply-to: Wizzalbif(a)aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:05:14 EST From: Wizzalbif(a)aol.com To: donate(a)vintage.org Subject: old, old, old computer I have an old computer at home that was probably made in the early 80's. It was made by Wang, and has 64K memory. I have a CPU, a monitor, and a dot matrix printer. Unfortunately, I am in Birmingham, Alabama with no plans to visit California anytime soon. If you do not want my computer, can you hook me up with anyone around here that might? All information is appreciated. Thanks. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details!

26 years, 4 months

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Cromemco S-100 system. (Was: HUGE additions this last week!)

by netsurfer_x1＠hotmail.com

>Cromemco? (sp) S-100 system with manuals and software - 4 floppy >drives. I >know nothing about this unit other than it's heavy. It sounds like the system you have acquired is a Cromemco System 3. This (if I'm right) was the high-end model of Cromemco's original S-100 systems. It can run either the CP/M or C-DOS OS.This machine, as you've already found out, is quite heavy because the outer casing is 1/8" (!) thick! This thing could withstand a nuclear blast. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

26 years, 4 months

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HUGE additions this last week!

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

Outside of the DEC warehouse stuff onroute I brought my uncle and aunt down with a 24' truck to the US to a prior DEC FE home and here is what was loaded up: DEC PDP -------------- 3 boxes of Straight PDP-8 manuals: maintenance, user, software and hardware, engineering, etc. a few "System Modules Books" Boxes of DECsystem 10 manuals many boxes of DEC manuals, prints, and paper tape software (really cool) Tri-data "File Cart" for the PDP-8 with 50 carts, boards, software , etc... TU56 tape drive parts and Astrotype DECtape units 60 trays of PDP-8, PDP-11 paper tape software 2 large boxes filled with DECTapes from PDP-8 and PDP-8 PDP-11 M8049 - many of them!!!!! :-) :-) :-) DRV-11J approx. 20 of them , probably more. TU45s PDP-11/05s PDP-11/03s PDP-11/35s PDP-11/40s RK07s TE16s Core memory systems (ME11, MM11, etc) RX02s AT least a hundred boxes of manuals Table top TU58 6 Decwriters S-100 --------- Altair 8800 , serial #80, all original MITS boards (15 boards), mostly rev 0, 6 4K RAM boards, 1 CPU, dual floppy controller (2 boards), PROM board, display board? serial/rs232 board, and others I can't identify yet. It came with 3 boxes of Manals, many early newsletters, engineering drawings, etc... and software from MITS. Dual Floppy 8" disk system. Amazingly, the 8800 is in mint condition, unmarked. I never really got into the 8800 hardware back then so I have no idea what some of the boards are... Cromemco? (sp) S-100 system with manuals and software - 4 floppy drives. I know nothing about this unit other than it's heavy. Victor/Vector? Graphics S-100 computer with dual external 5 1/4" floppies, books, etc.. I can't remember the manufacturer name but this board was used with an extender on an S100 system and has all the flip switches and lights to control the micro like an Altair 8800. It came with manuals, etc... HP ---- HP 1000 engineering, user, etc.. manuals HP 21MX system with papertape, mag tape, manuals, drawings, etc... Varian : (Al?) ------------------- Varian 620 user manuals and some others (about 7). Special thanks to Kevin Stumpf for finding emergency storage space. This load took up 400 FT^2. over 300 boxes of manuals, software and *many* PDP-11 unibus boards and 9 cabinets. There is still a few hundred boxes of manuals for old IBM, Burroughs prototype material left there for future pick up. A lot of hidden stuff in the load yet as we had *no* time to browse! This load was *very* difficult as it was located in a 2 story house with basement and garage :-( john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com

26 years, 4 months

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SWC0166 transistor (HP9100B ROM assy)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<The original transistor has the following markings : < <Ti (Texas Instruments Logo) <SWC0166 HP/TI house number doesn't cross in any of my books and I have a pile of them(some very old). <6934A (Date code, I think). Most likely. <It's in a TO5 can, and is certainly NPN. There lie the next questions: SIlicone or GErmainium? (makes a difference) What is the collector to emitter voltage in circuit? What is the base/emitter voltage for the ON case and OFF case? How much current does it handle in circuit? Allison

26 years, 4 months

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Informer terminal

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- "McFadden, Mike" <mmcfadden(a)cmh.edu> wrote: > I came across two terminals that look like they are portable. Labeled > Informer model 207, I have an Informer portable terminal. I can't verify the model number because mine is in storage, but what _I_ have, emulates an IBM 3274 w/attached 3270. You can also daisy-chain several of these terminals together and only the first one acts as a terminal controller - the rest are dumb terminals. I got mine at the Dayton Hamvention about ten years ago when lots of them appeared at several booths simultaneously. It is _not_ an ASYNC ASCII terminal. It is _not_ VT100 compatible. It is a genuine IBM SNA PU Type 2. We used to compare its behavior on an HP Line Analyzer to our own SNA product. It helped us find a couple of bugs on our end during the BIND. Theoretically, you could aquire the Linux SNA package and attempt to use it there, but I know I'd have to have one compelling reason to try. If you happen to need to dial up a 4331 or 4381 Mainframe, *this* is the tool. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain goes away on 15 March. See http://www.infinet.com/ for details. Please update your address lists to reflect my new address: erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 4 months

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HP3421A temperature measurements

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 412 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000305/842db2ab/at…

26 years, 4 months

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Need RS6K help

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

Bill Pechter, quoting Peter Pachla: >> Hi, I've just gotten hold of an RS/6000 which appears to be a model 520 >> (7013?). >> >> Since the thing appears to be a server (POWERserver?), and thus has no >> display adapter, I need to get hold of at least one of the 10-pin to 25-pin >> serial port converter cables. >> >> Can anyone, preferably in the UK, help please? >> >> Also, does anyone know where I can track down a set of AIX 3.1.0 manuals - >> printed or electronic form? > Are you sure there's no video cable. The 7013's (5x0 models -- > 520/530/550/580/590) often had a video card for IBM fixed frequency > monitors--at least the one's I had did.) > > The serial ports weren't 10 pin on anythin IBM had that I saw. > They used 9 and 25 pin ports. I will say at the start that I have no experience with the 5XX (7013) - all this is based on the 320 and 375 machines (7012) we have at work. The serial ports on the 320s (can't remember about the 375) are indeed 10 pin. Physically it is the same as on the IBM 6150 but I haven't got around to testing the adaptor on my 6150 yet. If you want to try the expensive route, the part number printed on the adaptor I just pulled out of the draw is 00G0943, and you can try IBM. If you want a cheaper route, with luck we will be decommissioning and selling off the RS/6000 stuff within the next few months (only one piece of software left to be ported and that is almost finished) and I'll see what I can obtain for you. Video IIRC is a DA shell with three miniature coaxen in it, so I imagine Peter would have spotted it if it was there! The monitor is the IBM 6019. (My plan is: build one working 320 out of the two dead ones, and sell: a working 375, with monitor; a working 320, with monitor; a dead 320; a spare monitor. I have no idea how much the dead 320 will cost to repair, but if IBM are involved it is likely to be prohibitive, so perhaps I might get you the video card from the 320) BTW in case you wondered the keyboard is _not_ PS/2 compatible, but the mouse is and all the windows drivers think it's a Logitech (it's on my PC at the moment). HTH Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk **********************************************************************

26 years, 4 months

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Informer terminal

by mmcfadden＠cmh.edu

I came across two terminals that look like they are portable. Labeled Informer model 207, the keyboard is in the cover of the display and clips to it with two metal clips. There is a fold down handle on the back and it is covered by a canvas dust cover. There are connectors for a phone connection and external keyboard on the back. It looks like some sort of troubleshooting terminal. I have searched the Web and only found 1 reference. Most of the incorrect references are to French terminals. Does anybody know anything more about them? Mike mmcfadden(a)cmh.edu

26 years, 4 months

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