- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Mar 12, 19:09, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > No extra cable...but I do have the RS422 standard pinout handy, this is > the one I used to make my null-modem cable: > > Pin Function > ------------------ > 1 handshake out (DTR?) > 2 handshake in (RTS?) > 3 TD- > 4 GND > 5 RD- > 6 TD+ > 7 GPinput (carrier detect) > 8 RD+ Almost right -- pin 2 is CTS not RTS: Pin Function ------------------ 1 HSKo (DTR) 2 HSKi (CTS) 3 TxD- 4 GND 5 RxD- 6 TxD+ 7 GPi (DCD) 8 RxD+ For a Mac-to-Newton cable, the interconnections are: Ground (4) -> Ground (4) (also connect to connectors' shrouds) Transmit+ (6) -> Receive+ (8) Transmit- (3) -> Receive- (5) Receive+ (8) -> Transmit+ (6) Receive- (5) -> Transmit- (3) Data Term Ready (1) -> Clear To Send (2) Clear To Send (2) -> Data Term Ready (1) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 4 months

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More stuff for the cost of shipping

by vcf＠siconic.com

More stuff from this guy is available. Please reply directly to the sender. Reply-to: 3web(a)netscape.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 12 Mar 00 19:57:28 MST From: Walter Brown <3web(a)netscape.net> Subject: Re: [Re: C-64] Hi, Sellam, Thanks, loads. I have received 4 replies and can probably find a home for my c-64 stuff. I also have a Radio Shack 286 (Tandy 1000 TL/3) with internal hard drive, 3-1/4 and 5-1/2 floppy drives, monitor, Deskmate O/S with disks, DOS disks, manuals, magazines (many issues of DOS Resource Guide) and (I thought) a printer, altho I don't see the printer at this moment. Will donate to anyone paying the postage. If you wouldn't mind posting this also, I would appreciate it very much. Is there anything I can do for you? I am located in Denver, Co. Thanks again for your help. Walt Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details!

26 years, 4 months

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Icom Attache: What is it?

by netsurfer_x1＠hotmail.com

I was doing a little snooping a while back & I came across a computer called the Icom Attache. It sounded like an intresting computer, unfortunately, I can't find anything about it! What is it? Is it an OEM-ed Otrona Attache, a regular PC-Compatible laptop, or is it something completely different? ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

26 years, 4 months

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Compact QBus Systems (Was re: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's...)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<The H780 supply is about 3 inches wide IIRC and mounts beside the card cage <That would make it a couple inches wider than the TU58EX. <Dan More like 5" when you add casing. I have a 780+backplane. The Rackmount BA11-M is 3.5h x 19w x 18.5d (the depth is possibly inaccurate) The destop version is a little larger for prettyness. The BA11-VA 3.5h x 13w x 13.5d the H780 ps alone 5.5"W3.3hx14.625L The BA11M however will take a lot more cards though but is very noisy. Allison

26 years, 4 months

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The C programming language

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Megan wrote: > Unfortunately, it appears that those who advocate and write in C > and other such structured languages appear to have lost the ability > to comment their code (at least it seems that way from all the code > I look at at work -- I would say a mere 5% is really commented). > > They appear to assume that C code is itself sufficient commenting... > > It doesn't work. This may well be true, but C programmers are not the only offenders. The worst period of my career was converting COBOL gorilla-code to C. The unstructured, uncommented COBOL code was in some cases so indecipherable that I simply dug out the original spec and threw the COBOL away. Unfortunately, this wasn't always possible . . . I myself heavily comment my C code, since I have to maintain it and can't always rely on my failing memory ;>) Glen Goodwin 0/0

26 years, 4 months

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Dayton Computerfest finds

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

At the Hara Arena in Dayton, there are three events per year that relate to this list: the Hamfest in May and the Computerfest in March and August. I only went Sunday this year as opposed to my traditional Saturday. Since I didn't go for modern PC parts, I found the selection to be sparser than ever. Scattered throughout the back rooms there were the piles of $3 to $5 boards of various vintages. I did manage to get a pair of DEC-Tulip-chipset 10/100 cards for $3 each and a wad of Microchannel boards (Ethernet and SCSI) for someone else in a $15 "all you can stuff bag". Besides a few cards, the only interesting thing I picked up was an Apple QuickTake 150 digital camera with external battery pack and PSU for $35. One drawback: it came with a PC cable (DIN-8 to DE-9) and I only have the Mac software. The Mac cable is typically grey with an icon molded into both ends of a pair of arrows pointing opposite directions and a stretched "S" line between them indicating that it's a crossover cable. I do have the pinouts for the camera, but if I were to make a cable, I'm not sure what all the matchups are for RS-422. The Apple Technote pages show how to make a PC cable, but that's the one I already have. So... does anyone out there have a Mac "null-modem" cable they'd like to get rid of? Alternately, does anyone have the PC software? It's for Win3.1, but at least I'd be able to dump the camera. Thanks, -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

26 years, 4 months

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Compact QBus Systems (Was re: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's...)

by dburrows＠netpath.net

><The BA11-MA's supply looks to have a smaller footprint than the BA11-V. As ><best as I can tell from the fiche. I do know the -MA's are physically clos ><to a dual TU58EX. At most a couple inches larger. > >The footprint of the MA has to be larger or its taller. The quad backplane >is the size of the BA11VA! If you have the quad wide backplane then the >power supply will cube out the BA11-VA case. I'm looking at the VA as I >write. and the dual wide backplane fills half the case and the PS is the >other half. The H780 supply is about 3 inches wide IIRC and mounts beside the card cage. That would make it a couple inches wider than the TU58EX. Dan

26 years, 4 months

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Made the Paper

by jrkeys＠concentric.net

The local Saint Paul Pioneer Press is running a story about my computer collection in this Monday's Tech Section of the paper. I spent two parts of two days with the reporter and another day getting my picture taken with a few items from the collection. I will try and scan it in and put it on my web site as soon as I get it up. Had a very good weekend and will writing up my finds on Monday.

26 years, 4 months

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Don't forget to check the manufacturers when you need docs!

by xds_sigma7＠hotmail.com

Hi, Well for what it's worth, IBM still offers a bunch of random ancient manuals through the POS (publication ordering system), at http://www.elink.ibmlink.ibm.com/public/applications/publications/cgibin/pb… That's one nasty address, isn't it? ;p Anyway, I was searching around in there, and among other things, I ordered "IBM 360 model 67 functional characteristics" (GA27-2719). I'm going to call other vendors when I have time, I wanna see if I can get some 470 manuals from Amdahl, for instance. Unfortunately, I can't find the rest of the docs I need for my 8100's or for DPPX/SP, odd that I can't get manuals less than 20 years old but can get 360 manuals... Also, I know this will interest some of the list; assorted card punch manuals are available too. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

26 years, 4 months

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Compact QBus Systems (Was re: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's...)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<The BA11-MA's supply looks to have a smaller footprint than the BA11-V. As <best as I can tell from the fiche. I do know the -MA's are physically clos <to a dual TU58EX. At most a couple inches larger. The footprint of the MA has to be larger or its taller. The quad backplane is the size of the BA11VA! If you have the quad wide backplane then the power supply will cube out the BA11-VA case. I'm looking at the VA as I write. and the dual wide backplane fills half the case and the PS is the other half. Allison

26 years, 4 months

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Compact QBus Systems (Was re: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's...)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

ALSO, the unit is VERY under powered. The DEC specs say only 16 amps <> on the 5 volts which also includes the video interface and the AVO optio <> if you want a full screen 132 character display. I suggest that if you u <> a Quad 11/73 with the RQDX3, you are probably OK. But not much else. < <I no longer need 132 columns to be fulfilled, so the AVO can be omitted. The AVO option really doesn't draw that much power and in the overall scheme it's far from enough. <I'd be attempting a dual 11/73, NS 256Kb, Sigma DLV11, and CMD 220 TM SCSI. <that doesn't work, I'll try taking out the DL and memory and using an MXV11 <though I recall those only have 32Kb or 128kb, which would make it pretty <difficult to run RSTS/E. That should work but the disks will have to be in their own box with their own power. There isn't enough power there for most disks. <Good advice for _any_ qbus system. I learned that the hard way, running 4- <SCSI devices (2 sets mirrored) in a BA23 chassis, and wondering about the <mysterious lockups. External drive chassis eliminated those, though cable <lengths became very critical. I'd limit that comment to ba23. My BA11S 11/73 has a full bus and powers floppy and two RD52s off a custom harness. <What I'm really hoping for is what was I think called a BA23-SE or BA11-SE <'twas a desktop 4-slot enclosure, maybe even 4x2? You thinking of BA11-VA, dual width by four slots, 4"x13x12 roughly. That would work but you still need an external disk box. I have several of those with 11/2, 11/23 cpus. The larger of them is 11/23, 256k, dlv11j, MRV11B(tu58 boot). There never was a ba23SE that small as the BA23 was one size (about 5 different backplane and front button combos. Allison

26 years, 4 months

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Some old documentation available.

by go＠ao.com

A friend was cleaning out his garage this weekend and came up with a few boxes of manuals (no software, alas) that may be of some interest here. The manuals are free (you pay postage) but I would like to entertain trades for other documentation, where possible. Of course, I'll simply accept "karma points" for later use if you don't have anything tasty right now <g> (but I do have a good memory...) Contact me off-list to make arrangements. First-come first served. Decision of the judges is final. No refunds. Some segments may be missing. The list can be found at: http://www.ao.com/~go/doclist.txt Briefly the list includes a set of RT-11 V5 orange binders, some VT100 docs, some Emulex docs, some TSX-11 manuals and some miscellany. (Miscellany includes a "service manual" for an Osborne computer - I *think* Osborne 1.) As I said, there is ONLY documentation - no software (I guess I was too late in asking...) But at least these got saved. If you have trouble accessing this site, let me know and I'll email a copy of the two lists. I've also posted my "want list" under http://www.ao.com/~go/wantlist.txt -Gary

26 years, 4 months

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Compact QBus Systems (Was re: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's...)

by dburrows＠netpath.net

>> > I think what you are looking for is the BA11-MA. Desktop 4 slot Qbus the >> > same approx. size as a dual TU58. >> >> I thought that was the BA11-VA? That's what mine say on them anyway, > >Yes, I thought it was the BA11-V as well. > >> and yeah they look very much like a TU58, but with a 4x2 18-bit backplane. OK you got my curiosity up as I was going by my memory. I just looked both the BA11-V and the BA11-MA up in the microfiche as I sold the last BA11-MA I had 6 to 9 months ago. The -MA is a quad wide, 4 slot card cage (H9270A backplane with the H780A power supply) -MA is 115v and -MB is 230v The other variants are -ME 115v, -MF 230v, -MH 115v w/ no logo, -MJ 230v w/ no logo. The BA11-V is dual wide 4 slot card cage with the H9281BA backplane. I have not had one of these but I have had several of the -MA's. The BA11-MA's supply looks to have a smaller footprint than the BA11-V. As best as I can tell from the fiche. I do know the -MA's are physically close to a dual TU58EX. At most a couple inches larger. Dan

26 years, 4 months

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Compact QBus Systems (Was re: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's...)

by dburrows＠netpath.net

>I'd be attempting a dual 11/73, NS 256Kb, Sigma DLV11, and CMD 220 TM SCSI. If >that doesn't work, I'll try taking out the DL and memory and using an MXV11, >though I recall those only have 32Kb or 128kb, which would make it pretty >difficult to run RSTS/E. The MXV11 has 8K for the -AA and 32K for the -AC. >What I'm really hoping for is what was I think called a BA23-SE or BA11-SE, >'twas a desktop 4-slot enclosure, maybe even 4x2? I think what you are looking for is the BA11-MA. Desktop 4 slot Qbus the same approx. size as a dual TU58. Dan

26 years, 4 months

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3rd party board identification

by blergh＠dds.nl

Hello fellow-subscribers, I have some 3rd party boards around that I would love to have identified, these are probably all pulled from PDP11 systems. Versatec Controller 122, full metal handle, one 3M connector marked "differential" (HEX) Dataram 40871 handwritten: Assy: 65123 S/N: 107, two white handles, one 3M connector (QUAD) ACT 10198-0 or 10197-0, (c) 1983, two white handles, two 3M connectors, one Z80A (QUAD, most likely UNIBUS) Thanks in advance, Erik.

26 years, 4 months

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Need info on GRiD, Please

by nerdware＠laidbak.com

Thursday was a good day. Picked up a minty fresh Apple IIe with the 80-column vid card, and three different GRiDs. I know something about GRiD, but would like to do a little more research. Any pointers? One is a Gridcase 1550 (the tank with the little roller bar instead of the trackball) which has a bad screen, unfortunately; a GRiD 386 (similarly-built tank that has a good screen and is happy to boot); and a 486 convertible with a good copy of Windows for Pen and a working pen. Very, VERY well- built little(!) units. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware(a)laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware

26 years, 4 months

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Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's, PDP 11/73 for trade

by elmo＠mminternet.com

I have a few too many CBM 8032's (12" green screen, full size non-graphics keyboard, 32K memory) sitting in my closet. Please contact me if you're nearby, and interested in one. Will trade for non-vintage Intel stuff. I also have a Trimm- or Sigma- pedestal style 11/73 system with TK50, RQDX3/RD53, RX50's. Its a beautiful piece, but I need something much more compact, like a desktop BA23ish enclosure or VT103. I only have 700' of living space to play with, and the aesthetics corps is frowning. Elmo

26 years, 4 months

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C-64 (fwd)

by vcf＠siconic.com

Here is someone with a C64 up for grabs. Please reply to the original sender. Reply-to: 3web(a)netscape.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 02:29:29 -0700 From: pop <3web(a)netscape.net> Subject: C-64 Hi, I have a C-64 with 1541 floppy drive, NX-1000C color printer, lots of disks and magazines I am getting rid of. I hate to just throw it all away, but have no further use and need to get rid of it all. Can you help? Walt 3web(a)netscape.net Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details!

26 years, 4 months

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Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's, PDP 11/73 for trade

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I also have a Trimm- or Sigma- pedestal style 11/73 system with TK50, <RQDX3/RD53, RX50's. Its a beautiful piece, but I need something much <more compact, like a desktop BA23ish enclosure or VT103. BA23 is not much smaller and you will not get all of that in a BA23. The VT103 is ok, but power will severely limit the system you can build and there is no preovision for mass storage inside. I forget the Vt103. Also there is the BA123 {stylish end table} and that has room and power. You'd need a Terminal for that as the VIDEO console if installed wants a 19" tube that is huge. Another compact PDP-11 might be the PRO350 or 380 series. In the end it depends on what you want the system to do. Allison

26 years, 4 months

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The C programming language

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< But I've been programming under multiple platforms in C for 10 years now. <I've learned a thing or two about writing portable code. It's surprising <how little effort it actually takes to write portable code, but it does tak <a different mind set that most programmers (in my experience) don't have. For the last 15-20 years I've been trying to resolve portability. Pascal and C were clear winners over BASIC always. Keep in mind the platforms I was trying to hit, CPM{z80}, RT-11 and VAX/VMS and for that carefull use of C (pay attention to what char, byte, long, double and float were) it was portable to the limit fo doing direct IO which is never portable. Pascal never failed to be portable as all objects were the same. < Careful, strings in C are *character* based (what's this ``byte'' you kee <talking about? 8-) This is one area where programmers don't quite grasp <portability issues. While it's true that characters in C must be at least <bits in size, that doesn't mean they *must* be 8 bits in size; an <implementation of C that uses Unicode natively could set the size of a <character to 16 bits (and there is also the issue of whether the character <is signed or unsigned---a plain char declaration is unspecified---it's <implementation dependant whether a char is signed or unsigned). This comes out of the tradidtion of C and unix and for that char is typically 7-9bits and is really an unsigned BYTE. The 8/16/32 world really forced a byte to conform to 8bits. <Intel 386 class takes a penalty if you execute 16-bit instructions in a <32-bit segment (or vice-versa). So, to move a counted string, you have: Gee and HLLs were supposed to hide this... ;) You should see what Z80 code looks like from a C compiler, without the ability to do the pointer indirection (PDP-11 does index deferred) the z80 compiler produces a lot of horrid code that resembles some of the RISC machines but nowhere as efficient. Yet hand coding it in z80 can be efficient and very few instructions. < The ANSI C spec states that the Standard C functions can be understood b <the compiler and treated specially. At least in the 386 line, most str*() <and mem*() functions compile to inline code and avoid the function call <overhead (a friend of mine actually triggered a bug in GCC using nested <strcpy() calls). < <> Controll of hardware ? My memory may be fading, just I can not <> see any reference to hardware controll in my K&R copy. All <> hardware dependant stuff is proprietary to the compiler you <> are using. And that's the same way as for example in PASCAL < < True---but it depends upon how the hardware is hooked up to the CPU---is <it memory mapped I/O or I/O mapped I/O? If the former, you just declare a <pointer to the memory location (mapped to the appropriate size) and go. I <it's I/O mapped I/O there is probably a wrapper function that the compiler <knows about and can inline. K&R C assumes the operators are part of the OS and the language interacts with the OS for IO. That is a useful concept for nonsystem programming or end applications. Totally meaningless for driving a A/D card. however, the right way to do that is to package and isolate the IO so you can use standard C conventions to interact with the device. This keeps the mainline code portable. < But C (the actual language) never defined built-in IO functions, leaving <I/O to subroutines (or functions). WRITELN is a language element of Pascal <but printf() is just a function. Depending upon your view, that is either <good thing or a bad thing (I think the lack of I/O statements in C is an <elegant solution myself). Despends. For a application that does standard IO to user and filesystem Pascal or C {stdio} works fine. If your doing mixed IO to a A/D card and present results to the user C looks nicer in code but Pascal handles that effectively. Both fail when the IO is speed critical, say the nondma floppy of a 200mhz or slower PC or when we are down in the mud of a Z80 or 8051. <> Things like messing up the whole programm by one wrong ; or } <> (something impossible on Assembly) or easyly produce memory <> leaks (hard to do on other HLL). Thats simple syntax and rules checking. C allows the naster conversion of datatypes. I've been burned by longints and ints in pointers to whatever. < Depends upon what you're used to. Pascal uses those pesky semicolons as <well, along with those annoying BEGIN and END statements. Assembly on the <other hand, is fairly structured and tend to avoid the cascade of errors <prone to compilers (although Microsoft's MASM is also prone to cascade <errors). I don't know if that doesn't exist in all of them. I've been smacked around gross stupidity in ASM, MACRO, PAL, C, PASCAL, BASIC and yes even fortran. All of them will go off the end of a structure that is pointed to and hurt something sacred if you care to. < You're not using C then. While it's possible to do: < < char *pd = destpointer; < char *ps = srcpointer; < < for (i = 0 ; i < sizeof(somestruct) ; i++) < *pd++ = *ps++; On some system this produses different code (usually bigger) on say z80 this will produce discrete code that is a monster. < That's going about things the hard way. Why not: < < memcpy(destpointer,srcpointer,sizeof(somestruct)); Than this. Z80 library has enough smarts to use the LDIR/LDDR instruction that is fast and efficient. < Or even: < < *destpointer = *srcpointer; Unpredictable how the compiler will do it even if it works. This can be horrendus! < One thing---I can't write Assembly on linus.slab.conman.org (an AMD 586) <and have it run on tweedledum.slab.conman.org (68040). C at least lets me <write code that will run on both machines. As would pascal, ADA, basic{maybe}, fortran and heaven help me COBOL. I find that as the machine gets smaller and resources are less prodigious the progression is BIG HLL--> smaller language--> ASM, like Pascal, C and then ASM. Allison

26 years, 4 months

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Survey: Vintage Computer Collecting

by retro＠retrobits.com

Hello everybody, I'm a reasonably new member of the list. I've been collecting vintage computers for about a year now, and have decided to put up a web site dedicated to vintage computing. The website is located at: http://www.retrobits.com I'd like to ask for your help in completing a survey. Here are the details: I'm going to launch the first edition of retrobits.com on March 15th. In that edition, I'd like to include an article about collecting vintage computers. It would be helpful to include a wide variety of people's experiences with collecting - therefore, I'm inviting you to fill out a brief survey about vintage computer collecting. If you have the time and can participate, you'd really help me out, as well as helping out other folks who are interested in collecting (or just getting started). If you would like to respond, please send the responses directly to me to avoid cluttering the list (unless you believe others in the list would be interested in your responses, in which case, go for it!). My e-mail address is: retro(a)retrobits.com Note: I will NOT give out your e-mail addresses to anybody, period, end of discussion. If you'd like to be credited by name for your participation in the survey, let me know and I'll be happy to do it. Here are the questions: 1: Why do you collect vintage computers? For instance: nostalgia, programming, historical interest, gaming 2: Where do you collect vintage computers? For instance: thrift shops, garage sales, eBay, other auction sites 3: What advice would you give someone just starting out collecting? For instance: what to avoid, how to restore dirty/broken systems Extra credit: I'd be really interested to hear what computers people collect (e.g., micros or minis, brands, age range) Thanks in advance for your participation! Look for the first results on March 15th. As more responses come in over time, I'll upgrade the collecting area on the site with the additional details! Earl Evans

26 years, 4 months

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Kids computers

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Old Pentium class computers make excellent kids computers. But if you're Whats wrong with an old 386 or 486 box? I have a 386sx/16 running W95 and despite what you might believe it's a decent quick and dirty printserver to a HP4L. Another 286sx/25 has a ISA based logic probe and analog card in it. I have two 486DX2/66 one running NT4/SP4 on 4.3gb and the other running Linux (RH5.2) on 500mb, both are a kick to use and perform surprizingly well. Both support SVGA 1mb, have networking and CDrom. Don't put down those older and often free to cheap 386/486 boxen. When did pentium become the required cpu? Allison

26 years, 4 months

8
10
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languages

by mtapley＠swri.edu

<several discussions of America's educational system snipped> ....So that's why we home-school, which pretty much sums up *my* opinion. Hmm... what's the ideal home-schooling computer? I want the kids to own the computer, be able to learn languages (Pascal, C++, Forth, open to suggestions, as well as Japanese, Russian, etc.), be able to do science projects with it, be able to word-process but not necessarily spell-check, be able to run good educational software. I'm already biased towards a Mac Plus (and own one), but certainly ready for suggestions. NeXT? MicroVax 3100? Cost, hardware and software, is a factor, of course. I'm *hoping* this is an on-topic question, in as much as classic computers are cheaper and simpler but demand more of the user to make work properly and therefore make better learning tools than current machines; if the answer is a new wintel box or a new iBook, I'd still like to hear it but I'd like to hear it off-list. TIA, - Mark

26 years, 4 months

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languages (Teachers)

by edick＠idcomm.com

Allison, I believe you've been sold a bill of goods. First of all, look at what a teacher has to do for his/her education and later for his/her salary as compared, say, to an engineering student. From what I've observed myself, and even more so from what I hear from my boys, both in college, the workload in a typical week for an engineering student adds up to about what an education major does in a semester. Secondly, he doesn't have to look forward to those 7 20-hour-day work-weeks for the next ten years, and he knows that he needn't worry about being fired, laid off, or much of anything else that would rock the boat. Sure, he gets about $45K after ten years, rather than the 60-75K the engineer will get, but he only has to work a 6-hour day, and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get full salary and, ultimately a generous pension. Secondly, look at the quality of those individuals. These are people who didn't do so well in high school, mainly due to lack of ambition and diligence, didn't want to work too hard in college, and, of course, couldn't get into a good college. Fortunately, a good college isn't required. On top of that, he's chosen a niche in which he only has to work a 6-hour day, and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get full salary and, ultimately a generous pension. Of course he's not into it for the money. He doesn't want to work hard enough to earn a lot of money. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 1:38 PM Subject: Re: Re: languages (Teachers) >On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, George Rachor wrote: > >> >>> On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, sjm wrote: >> >>>> lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who >> >>>> stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what >> >>>> they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized >> >>>> us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us > >True. > >My father was a construction contractor and used to have several teachers >that worked for him during the busy summer months so they could make >what my mother did as a LPN (2years college). > >When I left DEC I looked at teaching, I needed a masters in teaching over >any technical degrees and could expect to make 10-20thousand less a year. >It's pretty sad that that the average teacher has 4-6 years of college >education and makes less than the average person with that kind of time in >a technical degreee. > >Allison > >

26 years, 4 months

5
4
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languages (Ebonics)

by Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de

> I use dialect in some of my writing, but there are certainly purposes and > occasions where it is inappropriate. In those, I would use standard > English. Here in New England we speak differently, although the > dialect is not as extreme as BEV, an is mostly pronunciational. Notice > how media insists on a standard pronunciation, that's why all our local > tv new readers sound like foreigners. It's really amusing to hear them > try to say Quonnochontaug for the first time. Same her in Germany, but considering the practice in (German) Swiss TV, where interviews are DOUBBED or SUBTITELED in Standard German, we are still on the good side. They realy sub title them ... it's always a strange thing - hearing a person speaking German (Well, Schwitzerduetsch) and tead German subtitles ... Belive it or not, they are not just adding them when guy's from the behind the forest are interviewed, but always. That's Strange! H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

26 years, 4 months

1
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More Docs available online (including 1960 EI plans)

by af-list＠wfi-inc.com

Hi, A few more things added. I put up the rest of the RT-11 System Reference Manual (Appendix), the RT-11 System Message Manual, and jpeg color scans of the 1960 Electronics Illustrated article "Build An Electronic Computer" in the "Miscellaneous" document section. I have a few more things to OCR, including the RT-11 Software Support Manual, Fortran Notes, etc. In the next few days... www.retrobytes.org Cheers, Aaron

26 years, 4 months

1
0
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Kids computers

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Well, wait some more years - my 20 year old is still ok with her K5-100. Gee and I gave in and bought a P166/mmx when my 486dx board died. Still runs dos/W3.1 though. Can't run one of the FPGA tools under W95 so I don't. Allison

26 years, 4 months

1
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The C programming language

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I've been noticing the same thing when going source diving in the Linux <kernel and lots of other places. I think 5% would be a pretty generous <guess there (unless you count all the copyright crap and credits), most of <the time there isn't a single comment anywhere on the screen I'm looking at Minix a simpler teaching OS that is unix like is likely the most liberally commented code I've seen, maybe 5%, 10 if you wrap the book around it. <If you can lay your hands on unstripped sources to DEC PDP-11 OSes, <they're really nice examples of well-commented assembly language (no I'm <not kissing ass, I haven't seen the full RT sources so I wouldn't even know I have seen RT11 bare and commented. Bare is readable, the commented stuff is something more, much more. It covers the wacky why'd the do that stuff. <that interests me, and even then half the time I just have to fill it with <printfs and recompile to see what it actually does, since I can't figure <out what it's *supposed* to do. I do that with Coldfusion (web server middleware), Qbasic4.5 because the debugers (if they exist) arent able to tell me what I want the way I want it. Allison

26 years, 4 months

1
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Copying directory trees under VMS.

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> How do I get it to copy the whole *tree* in a directory or on a >disk to a whole other part of the system? COPY DISK$IN:[INDIRECTORY...]*.*;* DISK$OUT:[OUTDIRECTORY...] For doing whole disks, I prefer to use BACKUP. Tim.

26 years, 4 months

1
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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

The concept of immersion makes sense to me. I came to the U.S. in '52 with nary a word of English under my belt. I was admitted to the local school system in first grade, regular classes, with no interpreter anywhere in the building. That was PS49 in the New York school system. I was later moved to PS20 where even fewer folks spoke German fluently. Within 6 weeks my performance was improving to such extent that my language skills were to a state in which they were not perceived by the teachers to be an impediment. It didn't hurt that there were lots of Yiddish-speaking merchants in the neighborhoods through which I walked to and from school. Yiddish is quite similar to German and certainly makes conversation easier. Note that I said it took 6 weeks to "catch on" and not the seven or eight years it typically takes here with the ESL/ESOL programs. If a person has no reasonable alternative, particularly if that person's young and flexible, and not fet a bunch of SH*T from the community and from the government, he/she can learn enough to get by in school, which is more than what's needed to "get by" in life. I think it's the motivation, not the age, though. If an adult is motivated to communicate effectively, the road isn't long, though it may be harder than for a kid. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney <af-list(a)wfi-inc.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 3:52 PM Subject: Re: languages > > >On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >> California has made the correct choice in dropping the whole english as a >> second language program in favor of english immersion. The sooner you learn >> english and become proficient, the better students do in general. This >> isn't to say that ebonics or any other cultural language doesn't have >> merit, but points out the peril of "too much" local control in a polical >> setting. This is like offering "creation" as an alternative to "Darwin", >> the problem being once you declare "God created the heavens and earth" you >> have branched off from the next 10 years of scientific education to a path >> that leads to what? > >I don't know...Canada (ok, I'm biased a little being Canadian) allows for >official provincial languages outside of the national official languages, >French and English. It's a neat system, which I think provides a lot of >flexibility for subcultures to preserve their language/history. I'm >definitely not one of the "Speak English or Get Out" crowd. > >As far as evolution/creation (oh boy, here we go), I think the problem >with their original idea of teaching both disciplines fell short right at >the place where they had to rectify the problem you mentioned, which >simplifies to the question of where a "safe" re-entry point was in the >continuum of Science for those who went apostate and chose Creationism >over Darwinian Evolution... >

26 years, 4 months

2
1
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The C programming language

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Geoff Roberts <geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com> > > > I don't have any Uni level CS under my belt, and that seems > > > to be what's needed to comprehend it. > > > > Rubbish. > > I saw that we had a UNIX machine nestled amongst the VAXen... > You are fortunate in having had access to such systems early in the piece. That is true. I was also fortunate enough to sieze the opportunity. Of the handful of college barely-over-minimum-wage backup operators that paraded through SRC, only two of us are making a living in IT. Most of the operators mounted the tapes, printed the labels and read trashy novels while the TU-78 did its stuff for 6 hours. The other geek and I wrote programs on one of the other systems while the main system was being backed up. We both ended up as full-time programmers for the company's VMS and UNIX products. Several people had access to the programming resources. Most did nothing with the opportunity. > > I never learned a programming language in school, only by rolling up my > > sleeves, going into larval mode once again and banging out a fun project. > > Interesting. I got the impression that the knowledgeable C programmers > around either > a) Worked in a professional computing environment and 'worked their way up' > or > b) Went to university and studied CS there. > or > c) Both. I got my first job writing 6502 assembler for the C-64 in 1982 before I was old enough to drive. My mother had to drop me off and work and sign my contracts. I realize this is atypical, but there it is. I did start off at University with a double CS and EE major. I took one "FORTRAN for Engineers" class and after two years in the program switched my major and earned a BA in History (while learning to program in C on the side at work). So given your above model of the anticipated career paths of C programmers, I would most closely fall into A). I learned C at work, doing a project to automate one of my assigned job tasks after having been a professional assembler programmer for two to three years. I did it by asking the "real" programmers at work, exploring source code and reading K&R cover to cover several times. I still tell people to start with that book, BTW. It's a goldmine of information. > C doesn't strike me as a language that could be 'self taught' without prior > knowledge of a lot of things that you don't see outside that kind of > environment. I'm not sure I agree here. > All the books I ever saw on C seemed to expect that you already have a > working knowledge of data structures architecture of the machine etc. Have you read K&R? It assumes a PDP-11/VAXish machine architecture, but it covers the basic data structures, linked lists, multi-dimensional arrays, strings, pointers to arrays of pointers. More than enough stuff to get you into buckets of trouble. > TP was perhaps just better documented for ignorant newbies than C is. I did work with TP at one job. The programmer there would certainly be described as a newbie. He was a business major, not a geek. I have no idea how he ever produced that much working code except by pure force of will. It was extremely inelegant. > That you have 'self taught' on it regardless indicates otherwise, so I will > revise my opinion. However I must agree that it does seem to (me at least, > and I saw a another response to my original post that agreed) to be a "write > only" language unless it is very well commented. Again, that depends. I've seen some stuff that was absolutely unintellegible without comments (and not very understandable even _with_ comments) and other things that are so idiomatic and commonly used that adding comments disturbs the flow to the point of hiding what's happening. There are other languages that are _more_ "write only" (APL comes to mind immediately), but I do agree that zero comments makes C extremely difficult to understand. > Er, I should point out that I don't/didn't intend to start a holy war here... It tends to happen when anyone makes somewhat broad and somewhat firm statements about anything in this biz, editors, OSes _and_ languages, to name a few. > I'm merely relating my experiences. We all seem to have our favourites, I > guess I like TP because it was the first 'real' language (something compiled, _That_ is typical in my experience. ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 4 months

1
0
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Copying directory trees under VMS.

by fluke＠mcs.net

I have recently found the time to start playing with my VAXen again, and have been struck by a bit of a confusing dilemma: Why is it that when I attempt to copy a large tree from any place to another under VMS 7.2, it always copies as follows: This command: backup dub3:[000000...]*.*;* dub2: causes vms to copy a directory structure that looks like this: [000000.000TOOLS.AXP]file1...file2...etc [000000.000TOOLS.VAX]file3...file4...etc to this: [000000.000TOOLS] (empty) [000000.AXP]file1...file2...etc [000000.VAX]file3...file4...etc How do I get it to copy the whole *tree* in a directory or on a disk to a whole other part of the system? I tried reading the help available on copy and backup, but I haven't been able to figure out how to copy a whole tree from one place to another. Thanks for your help! Greg Linder fluke(a)mcs.net

26 years, 4 months

1
0
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The C programming language

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Hmpf! A bad programmer can make an awful mess in _ANY_ >language, including ADA. Absolutely... it is possible to write well in any language (including BASIC, contrary to many people's opinions) and it is possible to write poorly in any language. It depends more on the skill of the programmer... ...but I think I better stop here before entirely rekindling the language wars... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 4 months

2
1
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The C programming language

by mbg＠world.std.com

>C's abstraction begins to bore me and it seems a write only language. Unfortunately, it appears that those who advocate and write in C and other such structured languages appear to have lost the ability to comment their code (at least it seems that way from all the code I look at at work -- I would say a mere 5% is really commented). They appear to assume that C code is itself sufficient commenting... It doesn't work. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 4 months

2
1
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languages (Teachers)

by edick＠idcomm.com

You're right about what rises to the top, Allison, and I'd add that the fact that teachers are, in general, represented by a "union" which emphasizes the normal distribution just as the environment in which they work does, by their nature desiring neither accolade nor criticism. Being good doesn't reap the rewards it should in an environment where being good is good, but being average is better. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 5:56 PM Subject: Re: Re: languages (Teachers) ><Allison, I believe you've been sold a bill of goods. > >Looked for myself in my locale. > ><First of all, look at what a teacher has to do for his/her education and >>>>>snipped/ > >I know far to many doing the real thing... > >Like someone else said but I'll say differently: Like cream that rises to >the top, so does the scum. We see the exceptional asses and heros, the >average teacher is more in the world of trying not to be disenchanted with >to many rules, too few resources and an overabundance of students. > ><didn't do so well in high school, mainly due to lack of ambition and ><diligence, didn't want to work too hard in college, and, of course, couldn' ><get into a good college. Fortunately, a good college isn't required. On ><top of that, he's chosen a niche in which he only has to work a 6-hour day ><and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get full salary and, ><ultimately a generous pension. > >Well your experience is different. You wish to see the scum and you do, >those that do the job are missed and those that exceed the mark are >ignored. > >I don't for one second believe that our educational system is up to stuff. >If anything I'd be glad to post my parting address to my HS class, it >wasn't complmetary to skills taught in 1971. The briefest words I'd still >say is I knew Algebra, trig and could write a term paper that would knock >your socks off but... income tax preparation and employment paperwork >(W4, resume, applications) were a mystery. I was trained to go to college. >Thankfully I persued both academic and vocational path in parallel. > > >Allison >

26 years, 4 months

1
0
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languages (Teachers)

by edick＠idcomm.com

This comment (not specifically, but as it aligns with several others) serves to show how easy it is to get out of touch with what's happening in the institutions within which most of us spent 10-12 years of our lives. It's true that some (few, however) teachers are present before the majority of students are in the school. It's also true that some teachers remain present after the students are dismissed at the end of the school day. However, I'd add a couple of things to the already foul mix. First of all, if my skills as an observer are not totally off, and I made records of most of this, by the way, the ones who are present when the kids show up are generally the same ones who are present after they've left. In the three schools I observed, the faculty ranged in size between 105 and 198. In the cases where I made long-term records, the ones who were present early were, with a couple of specific exceptions, the same ones as were present late in the day, numbering typically 5 in the smallest school to 8 in the largest. In one high school, one of the teachers who stayed late was married to a middle school teacher and she was early for the same reason that he was late. They took one car and she dropped him off at the high school just in time, but then arrived early. He stayed late because she didn't get off until somewhat after he did, so he stayed late about the same amount as she arrived early. For a goodly period of time, I was in one school or another almost every day, between my boys' fights and the various committee meetings, and trying to teach teachers to do something beyond cute little calendars, etc, with their computers. I had the advantage that I had no social bond to any of the teachers, hence didn't have to let the fact that I liked one or another and perhaps disliked yet another influence my assessment of their behavior and performance. If you ask anyone who was present, I was equally harsh with everyone, pounding on the administrators to be more efficient at the same time that I urged the teachers not to be so self-serving in their attitudes and, above all, in their negotiations. I admired the teachers who taught me along the way, and certainly harbor no acrimony toward those who didn't. All in all, they were a tolerant and longsuffering lot as well as being sufficiently devoted to turn many rough-hewn youngsters into decent scholars. I remember many of my own teachers fondly and greatly appreciate what they did to make it possible for me to realize my current circumstances, Those were not the teachers of today, however. It's true they now have neither the respect nor the authority that was afforded their predecessors, but they haven't the determination and self-respect that was common to the teachers I remember. You needn't wander any further than the teachers' lounge to learn that they regard their peers and sometimes even themselves as relatively lazy and lacking in ambition. I didn't invent this view of our current crop, either, by the way, as it is reflected in the news almost daily. In general it appears the Republicans see them as may become if their course isn't altered, while the Democrats see them as the democrats wish they would become. I personally would support an effort to limit the length of time a teacher can teach to five years at a stretch. After this time is up, I'd require they go out into the world and do something else for five years, at the end of which I'd see they were paid as much as they got for doing whatever they were doing, so long as it wasn't teaching. After five years, do it again . . . Each year, I'd also dismiss the bottom 10% based on performance, but without prejudice, allowing them to take 5 years to do something else, and replace them with new graduates. After five years they could reapply with the assumption that they had learned something valuable in the interim. I've heard stories about fellows like your EE/Music double major. I've never seen one up close though. It's probably a California-ism. That place is like another planet. I like to visit, but I wouldn't like to live there. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney <af-list(a)wfi-inc.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 4:28 PM Subject: Re: Re: languages (Teachers) >This is total bullshit. Total. A very good, long-time friend of mine did 5 >years at University to come out with a dual EE/Music Comp. degree and >walked into a $60k per year job with a cutting-edge tech company. He works >8 hours a day, maybe 2 hours extra at home to straighten out paperwork. >Maybe. In addition to his base salary, he receives stock options that just >about double his yearly salary. He is 27 and owns a house in Huntington >Beach, less than three blocks from the shore. He just returned from a >three-week vacation in Italy, after being with the company for 4 years. > >Anyone who kills themselves in school to walk out into a $45k per year job >that requires *140* hours per week is not intelligent. A person who does >this today is either a moron or a massochist. If this is what you want for >your children, that's up to you. > >This is my last post on the subject. I do wonder what really soured you on >teachers, besides your claim to have studied them so closely in the work >environment. To demean the entire teaching profession as it exists today >in gross generalizations shows a lack of objectivity and portrays you as >nothing but a bitter, old crank. > >To that end, I'm not sure what rubs me so raw about this...usually I can >keep my big mouth shut. But listening to someone bash a group of people >who are generally dedicated to their profession, and who put up with poor >materials and low salaries, makes me sick. > >Aaron > >On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Allison, I believe you've been sold a bill of goods. >> >> First of all, look at what a teacher has to do for his/her education and >> later for his/her salary as compared, say, to an engineering student. >From >> what I've observed myself, and even more so from what I hear from my boys, >> both in college, the workload in a typical week for an engineering student >> adds up to about what an education major does in a semester. Secondly, he >> doesn't have to look forward to those 7 20-hour-day work-weeks for the next >> ten years, and he knows that he needn't worry about being fired, laid off, >> or much of anything else that would rock the boat. Sure, he gets about $45K >> after ten years, rather than the 60-75K the engineer will get, but he only >> has to work a 6-hour day, and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get >> full salary and, ultimately a generous pension. >> >> Secondly, look at the quality of those individuals. These are people who >> didn't do so well in high school, mainly due to lack of ambition and >> diligence, didn't want to work too hard in college, and, of course, couldn't >> get into a good college. Fortunately, a good college isn't required. On >> top of that, he's chosen a niche in which he only has to work a 6-hour day, >> and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get full salary and, >> ultimately a generous pension. >> >> Of course he's not into it for the money. He doesn't want to work hard >> enough to earn a lot of money. >> >> Dick >> -----Original Message----- >> From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> >> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> >> Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 1:38 PM >> Subject: Re: Re: languages (Teachers) >> >> >> >On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, George Rachor wrote: >> > >> >> >>> On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, sjm wrote: >> >> >>>> lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who >> >> >>>> stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what >> >> >>>> they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized >> >> >>>> us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us >> > >> >True. >> > >> >My father was a construction contractor and used to have several teachers >> >that worked for him during the busy summer months so they could make >> >what my mother did as a LPN (2years college). >> > >> >When I left DEC I looked at teaching, I needed a masters in teaching over >> >any technical degrees and could expect to make 10-20thousand less a year. >> >It's pretty sad that that the average teacher has 4-6 years of college >> >education and makes less than the average person with that kind of time in >> >a technical degreee. >> > >> >Allison >> > >> > >> >

26 years, 4 months

1
0
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The C programming language

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Geoff Roberts <geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Glenatacme(a)aol.com> > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 3:51 PM > Subject: Re: The C programming language > > > > In a message dated 03/09/2000 3:19:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de writes: > > > > > I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the > > > sense of degeneration. > > > > Hey, Hans, I don't get this. C is the most versatile, flexible, and > > portable language ever devised. It permits complete control of > > hardware while at the same time allowing elegance in program design > > and structure. Allowing is the keyword here. I've seen some stuff that just took my breath away and I've also seen stuff that made me retch. > You forgot to add "and is perfectly comprehensible to anyone with long > experience in assembly language or machine code." It's been said that C has all the power of assembler with all the legibility of assembler. If you've ever taken C and compiled it on a PDP-11 and looked at the output, you'll quickly notice that many of the "features" of the language translate to very few instructions - it's assembler shorthand, essentially. This, to me, is a benfit, not a detriment, but I _like_ assembler, especially PDP-11 MACRO (and it's relatives like the MC68K) > I don't have any Uni level CS under my belt, and that seems > to be what's needed to comprehend it. Rubbish. My first language was BASIC (like so many kids in the late 1970s), followed quickly by 1802 and 6502 machine language (no compiler - stuff entered in hex), then, about six years after I started programming, C. Working at SRC in 1984, I saw that we had a UNIX machine nestled amongst the VAXen running VMS. It was a VAX-11/750 w/2Mb RAM and two RK07 drives. I don't have the drives (they were discarded in 1992), but I do have _that_ 11/750 (s/n BT000354) now upgraded to 8Mb w/SI9900, Fuji Eagle, etc. We swapped out different sets of RK07 packs to run various Unices to conform to the customer's configuration - 4.0BSD, 4.1BSD and SYSIII, IIRC. I still have the VAX SYSIII tapes somewhere, but who knows if they are still legible after all this time. Anyway, way back then, I'd heard about UNIX and decided I wanted a piece of it. I got an account, borrowed a copy of the K&R book and used it as a reference to write my first C program. It was an abomination as far as style goes, but it did work - it converted a text table of board handle numbers into a formatted picture of the contents of all of our PDP-11 and VAXen, a job I'd do today in perl and probably HTML. What I've found from personal experience is that to really _learn_ a programming language, I need a project to keep me going past the learning cliff. With 6502 assembler, it was hand-compiling Scott Adams' adventure engine from BASIC (a story I've been happily able to share with him many years later); with Java, it's my program to calculate sunset/sunrise charts for my Antarctic web page; with Inform it was translating Zork from MDL. It can be a monster project or a few dozen K of source, but the important part is having a motivational goal to complete. I never learned a programming language in school, only by rolling up my sleeves, going into larval mode once again and banging out a fun project. Just for the record, I am very fond of C. Yes, atrocities have been committed in it, but it's right up there with perl and assembler as my favorite tools to get the job done. Just be sure that you use the right tool for the right job. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 4 months

8
7
0 0

Kids computers

by netsurfer_x1＠hotmail.com

>I did the same thing, although I added a twist, I installed one of >these >new (and dirt cheap) removable drive caddy things that you >mount an IDE >drive inside of. I install software on a "master" disk, >which has a bulk >copy program on it. Then I copy the entire drive >over to a built in drive >on the same IDE cable. I have a switch on >the outside of the case that >makes the internal drive a "master" or >slave (dpdt toggle that is wired >with wire wrap wire to the four >pins constituting the jumper positions on >the drive. > >Switch the internal drive back to "master" status and reboot. Makes >fixing >things when my 4.5 yr old drags the entire desktop into the >recycle bin >and flushes it a lot easier! > >--Chuck Old Pentium class computers make excellent kids computers. But if you're *really* on budget, an old Mac Plus or, if they don't like the Mac Plus' lack of color graphics, a Mac LC would be perfect. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

26 years, 4 months

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New addition :)

by peter＠joules0.demon.co.uk

I have just been given a Radio Shack TRS-80 pocket computer. It is in 'as new' condition, complete with manual and cassette interface. I haven't had a chance to play with it yet, but am about to take it to bed and have a look at it (Fiona will _love_ that!). Are there many of these on the list? From a brief glance at the manual it looks as if it is quite powerful for its size and era. -- Regards Pete

26 years, 4 months

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DSSI opcodes

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

Hello port-vax, So I've been looking for some way to contribute to the VAX port of NetBSD without interfering with anyone else (and without incurring too much stress as this is still just a hobby as yet). I decided I would try my hand at adding support for the on-board DSSI interface on the VAX 4000/300 and the MicroVAX/VAXServer 3400. To further this end I have acquired the technical manuals on both CPUs (KA640 and KA670) but while they describe the hardware for DSSI in great detail (its very similar to SCSI btw) they both reference, but don't include, the list of valid DSSI opcodes and their parameters! Needless to say that makes it a bit difficult to implement. :-) I'm looking for any documentation on the DSSI opcodes, or a reference to a DEC EK-xxx document that documents same if you know of one. Can anyone help out here? On a related note, I was musing that as I attached disk and tape units I'd call them 'dd0, dd1, ..., dt0, dt1 ...' (as in DSSI Disk 0, DSSI Tape 0, etc) My /dev directory doesn't seem to have any devices by that name so they would appear to be free for use, but you never know ... --Chuck

26 years, 4 months

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The C programming language

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I suppose it depends on the assembly language. I can write PDP-11 assemble <in C (knowing nearly exactly how the code generator works), but I can't <write VAX assembler in C since there are VAX instructions that don't <represent well. SPARC code is also easy to write C code with as there are <few instructions. An interesting contardiction as VAX is a extreme superset of PDP-11. <The place where this really comes home is in one of my other hobbies where <I write embedded robotics code in C for microprocessors like the 68HC11. C is ok, but I've felt strongly for years it was better for tasks that wanted you to be closer to the hardware. I like the control structures of C. Pascal has been a favorite for years when I really don't want to know the hardware. I prefer the data structures of Pascal. Allison

26 years, 4 months

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languages (Teachers)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I have to question. I was once asked by a friend to <help with some math homework. After looking over the <questions, I found that I couldn't answer any of them. <It wasn't that they were too hard, it was that they <were too ambiguous. After some more talking with the <student, I found that these were some of the "don't <make the student feel bad by having the wrong answer" <type questions. They were designed so that almost any <answer could be considered correct. I used to call them "Hobsons choice" If no, why. If Yes, Why. Great for the debaters but a quandry for those that were more interested in facts or testable theory. Your grade was based on the why portion. Now who knows whats important. Allison

26 years, 4 months

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languages (Teachers)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Allison, I believe you've been sold a bill of goods. Looked for myself in my locale. <First of all, look at what a teacher has to do for his/her education and >>>>snipped/ I know far to many doing the real thing... Like someone else said but I'll say differently: Like cream that rises to the top, so does the scum. We see the exceptional asses and heros, the average teacher is more in the world of trying not to be disenchanted with to many rules, too few resources and an overabundance of students. <didn't do so well in high school, mainly due to lack of ambition and <diligence, didn't want to work too hard in college, and, of course, couldn' <get into a good college. Fortunately, a good college isn't required. On <top of that, he's chosen a niche in which he only has to work a 6-hour day <and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get full salary and, <ultimately a generous pension. Well your experience is different. You wish to see the scum and you do, those that do the job are missed and those that exceed the mark are ignored. I don't for one second believe that our educational system is up to stuff. If anything I'd be glad to post my parting address to my HS class, it wasn't complmetary to skills taught in 1971. The briefest words I'd still say is I knew Algebra, trig and could write a term paper that would knock your socks off but... income tax preparation and employment paperwork (W4, resume, applications) were a mystery. I was trained to go to college. Thankfully I persued both academic and vocational path in parallel. Allison

26 years, 4 months

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Swap Meet Update & Reminder

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

In reverse order: This is a final reminder that the annual Mike & Key ARC Electronics/Ham Radio/Computer swap meet takes place TOMORROW (Saturday the 11th) at the Western Washington Fairgrounds from 09:00 - 16:00 (most sellers pack up and go shortly before or after 15:00). Buyer admission is USD $6.00. Kids 12 or under are free with parent/guardian/similar adult guidance figure. Parking is free. If you get lost, just ask any local for directions to the 'Puyallup Fairgrounds.' Pronunciation, BTW, is "Pew-All-Up" for the WA-state impaired. ;-) Now, the update: As I usually do, I will be selling this year. However, the list of stuff I posted that I was bringing earlier has changed as follows. BOTH Exabyte 8500 drives have been sold to early interest. I still have THREE EXB-8200 drives available. Also, the DSD's and other chassis I mentioned have been spoken for (Eric Smith contacted me last week to confirm his visit), and will not be showing up. Still, I've got plenty of other bits and pieces, including a VT220 and KB (works), a small UPS (600VA or so), and more bits and pieces than I care to think about at the moment (no Q-bus boards, sorry). I'll hope to see at least a couple of you there! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

26 years, 4 months

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FW: Free TU81, etc., NW CT.

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

For our list members on the northeastern coast, I present this as received >from the NetBSD port-VAX mailing list... -=-=-=-=- <snip> -=-=-=-=- X-From_: port-vax-owner-kyrrin=bluefeathertech.com(a)netbsd.org Fri Mar 10 11:50:49 2000 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:49:25 -0500 From: "Matt Dobush" <DOBUSM(a)torrington.com> To: port-vax(a)netbsd.org Subject: Free TU81 Plus 9 track tape drive ! Sender: port-vax-owner(a)netbsd.org Delivered-To: port-vax(a)netbsd.org I have a TU-81 tape drive that worked the last time I used it a few years ago. It is free to a good home. Actually, free to anybody willing to come to my work and pick it up ! No strings attached. I really don't want to get into shipping this sucker, so you have to come to Northwestern Connecticut to pick it up. I can meet after hours or on a weekend if needed. Please E-Mail me directly with any questions or offers since I'm not a regular subscriber to your list. -Matt Dobush Systems Administrator dobusm(a)torrington.com -=-=-=-=-=-=- If interested, please contact Matt directly. Thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

26 years, 4 months

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Classic computing on NPR

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

OK, here's something that's (much) more on topic that talking about spoken language... Anyone listen to NPR's all things considered today? (friday) They had a short story about a commodore 64 user group in oregon. It basically profiled a group of mostly older people who still use and enjoy them for what they can still do. It also mentioned their scarcity and having to scrouge secondhand stores to find parts. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think--

26 years, 4 months

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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

Another thing to keep in mind about these jobs is that not only is the summer vacation long, but there are plenty of days without kids in the building, when most teachers go skiing or golfing, or hot-tubbing, and the workday for most of them is less than 6 hours. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 8:13 AM Subject: OT: Re: languages >At 04:20 PM 3/9/00 -0500, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: >>What other profession is there with an entry salary of >>about $28K, and a top salary (after 20+ years) of less than $70K ? > >Actually, there are lots of jobs like that. Also, have you >forgotten the nice long summer vacation? > >- John >

26 years, 4 months

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languages (Teachers)

by edick＠idcomm.com

I didn't see Seth's remarks. I'm sure he makes a good point, and the remarks I've put forth certainly don't apply to every teacher. However, I've had ample oppurtunity to sample what's out there, and it's a dreadful shame that there's so much evidence of what I've said. The extreme cases are the ones that catch the most attention, and that applies to my attention as well as anyone else's. I'm as sorry as anyone that this is what we see when we take a long look, though. I certainly had hoped, when I ventured into this territory, that I'd find something different. It has not encouraged me to be optimistic. My elder son, by the way, has gotten the message that this is an easy and fun profession. He's dropped out of Harvard and attends a state teachers' college, having declared that he didn't really want to work so hard and didn't want to spend as much time working as he observed that I did. I'm not proud of that, but it certainly fits, both with my observations and my conclusions about them. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Craig Smith <ip500(a)roanoke.infi.net> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 1:45 PM Subject: Re: languages (Teachers) >Bravo Seth, >Dick's comment just went too far. my neighbor is an Art teacher in a >local High School and believe me---if she's not at work, she's either >grading papers, planning next weeks work or staying after class to work >with other kids. SOME are really dedicated to the profession! > >sjm wrote: >> >> On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 08:58:43AM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> > Another thing to keep in mind about these jobs is that not only is the >> > summer vacation long, but there are plenty of days without kids in the >> > building, when most teachers go skiing or golfing, or hot-tubbing, and the >> > workday for most of them is less than 6 hours. >> > >> > Dick >> >> I think it's extremely unfair to label all teachers like this. >> You make them sound lazy. I know only one highschool teacher today, >> but I do know he works his ass off. He does NOT take the summer off, >> he takes summer teaching contracts to make ends meet. After teaching >> his classes he has, further courses of his own to attend, papers to >> grade, lesson plans to work out, staff meetings, conference meetings, >> parent-teacher meetings, and inbetween tons of shit none of us >> would want to deal with dumped on him. Sometimes he doesn't get >> home until 11:00 -- and neither do I, but at least I get paid for it. >> >> I attended public school between 1979 and 1992, in both California >> and Connecticut. We moved around frequently, and I was in 8 >> different schools during that time. That's a lot of different school >> systems, and a lot of different teachers. Yes, I had some that were >> merely doing their job, not going the extra mile. And I think I >> can probably put my finger on exactly one who I would honestly call >> lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who >> stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what >> they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized >> us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us >> work together, they made us look forward to their classes every day. >> They had a passion for what they did, and God bless them for it. >> >> I can't think of a more honorable profession. >> >> -Seth

26 years, 4 months

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languages (Teachers)

by edick＠idcomm.com

I've got little sympathy for the teachers in in our school system. Many of them may be honest and hard-working, but during the six years during which I spent on the order of 12-15 hours a week in the school building, observing the goings-on and attending various meetings, I saw what I feel is a better-than-average sample of what the teachers themselves, school system issues aside, are all about. First of all, during my second year in this close-up of the system, I had occasion to visit one gym teacher. He had a 5-bedroom, 2-story house with a 3-car attached garage, and a car parked in the driveway because the garage was full of cars. That particular teacher was always complaining about the low pay. He and I met in the context of an accusation made by a number of the gym students, that he spent his time reading the newspaper, while he should have been supervising the locker room in order to help prevent the thefts and violence that had been brought to the steering committee's attention. When he told me what he earned, which I already knew, I pointed out to him that I had paid more than that in state taxes that year. He simply lived beyond his means. I, on the other hand, lived in a 3-bedroom ranch-style house with merely a carport. There were no extra vehicles in my driveway, either. One 6th-grade math teacher openly declared that he didn't have time to look outside while the children were leaving the school premises to help prevent violent incidents and harrassment as had been brought to the steering committee's attention. I observed that he was always one of the last teacher to arrive in the morning, though he was always out of the parking lot before the first 10% of the student body was leaving the building. On one occasion, I protested the frivolous activity that was being pursued in the social studies classes, which was clearly an art project. After the social studies department spent 10 weeks of the semester on this activity, I was accused, perhaps justifiably, of throwing my weight around. The entire social studies department made an appearance at a committee meeting, to register their complaint, and I challenged them to indicate even a hint of how this artsy-project had tied into the curriculum, first by asking what the cultural significance of the item being mimicked was to the Native-Americans of whose history these were a component, and second, by challenging them to (a) show some connection to the curriculum that was worth over half a semester and (b) to show how they had taught the significance of this item to the current cultural environment. They could answer neither question between them. I asked them a few other social-studies-related questions along the way, only to demonstrate the depth of knowledge of our social studies department. This matter had risen not from my concern over the quality of teaching, since I already knew where that was, but over my concern that all 7th grade students were required to carry, among other things, a pair of scissors, which were, by school district policy included among contraband items. The Social Studies department could not justify this breach of policy. The following fall, 4 of the 7 teacher were assigned to different schools and the one's contract was not renewed. I was as disappointed as anyone could be after my public school experience. When I was in these schools (the same ones, by the way) teachers lived in the neighborhood, and I walked to school with a couple of them every morning. The teacher not only knew their respective subjects, but the English teachers could help with questions about math or science, and the principal spoke very elegant Engish. Even the gym teachers were up to date on world events and could tell you what city was the capitol of Burma. Dick -----Original Message----- From: sjm <sethm(a)loomcom.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 11:58 AM Subject: Re: Re: languages (Teachers) > >On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 08:58:43AM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> Another thing to keep in mind about these jobs is that not only is the >> summer vacation long, but there are plenty of days without kids in the >> building, when most teachers go skiing or golfing, or hot-tubbing, and the >> workday for most of them is less than 6 hours. >> >> Dick > >I think it's extremely unfair to label all teachers like this. >You make them sound lazy. I know only one highschool teacher today, >but I do know he works his ass off. He does NOT take the summer off, >he takes summer teaching contracts to make ends meet. After teaching >his classes he has, further courses of his own to attend, papers to >grade, lesson plans to work out, staff meetings, conference meetings, >parent-teacher meetings, and inbetween tons of shit none of us >would want to deal with dumped on him. Sometimes he doesn't get >home until 11:00 -- and neither do I, but at least I get paid for it. > >I attended public school between 1979 and 1992, in both California >and Connecticut. We moved around frequently, and I was in 8 >different schools during that time. That's a lot of different school >systems, and a lot of different teachers. Yes, I had some that were >merely doing their job, not going the extra mile. And I think I >can probably put my finger on exactly one who I would honestly call >lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who >stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what >they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized >us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us >work together, they made us look forward to their classes every day. >They had a passion for what they did, and God bless them for it. > >I can't think of a more honorable profession. > >-Seth

26 years, 4 months

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Dumpster stories!

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: thomas.h.lindberg(a)se.abb.com <thomas.h.lindberg(a)se.abb.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 6:37 AM Subject: Re: Dumpster stories! > > >A coule of years ago we had two very tragic dumpster stories in Sweden, >three kids vere killed while reading magazines in covered >newspaper/magazine dumpsters. >The kids had seaked in through the narrow opening where we dump our old >newspapers/magazines and sat there while the truck came to pick up the >dumpster content. The dumpster was automatically emptied into a compacter >at the truck and all taken to the fragmentation site where the kids wer >found crushed. >The dumpster openings are now just about the size of a mail box. > I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) not to enter one. There are so many better ways to find old computers in much better condition than something thrown into a dumpster with everything else piled on top. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com >Thomas > > >

26 years, 4 months

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