- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

If you can't find anything by next weekend contact me off list. I have a couple Qniverters at home with the docs. I can't recall the # offhand but I know they were used from a Qbus host to Unibus backplane. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Nick Oliviero <oliv555(a)arrl.net> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000 9:24 PM Subject: Q-to-U translations >Anyone on list familiar with the various Qbus/Unibus convertors >that can help with this problem? Actually two, I'm trying to connect >one Unibus expansion chassis to a Qbus host, PDP11/83. I've >another Unibus chassis which I'd like to mate with a mVAX4100. > >I have the DEC M8217 and Able 10340 convertors but have not >been able to find any documentation on either. Would either of >these work or do I require a different product. I know Able made >at least 4 of these variants. Able has not been very helpful in the >past, >general response going something like ...... we have a manual >that may answer your question, its only $100.......... > >It just occured to me, I think the Able boards were meant to be >plugged to the Qbus side, my situation requires a Unibus board, >at least in the case of the 4100 project. > >Also, my 4100 manual completely glosses over its Qbus capability. >Anyone know the p/n and or pinouts for the 4100 Qbus cable? > >Thanks in advance for any suggestions > > Nick

26 years, 1 month

1
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VAX-11? and some C64 stuff

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On May 28, John Rollins wrote: > What fun! I got a book called "VAX-11 Assembly Language Programming." > What's a VAX-11? The first few VAXen were the VAX-11 family. The first was the VAX-11/780, then (in no particular order) the VAX-11/750, the /730, /725, /782, and /785. Of course I'm assuming you know what a VAX is in the more generic sense... -Dave McGuire

26 years, 1 month

3
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OS/2

by allisonp＠world.std.com

>It's the APPS and the moving Win32s target they tried to support. >The killer was when MS made Office not run under OS/2. May have hurt the market but, no great loss. MS Office is another plague on the world. >OS/2 was slow -- glacial on the early 386's without a LOT of memory >16meg was VERY rare then). IBM used it internally (v2.11) on PS/2 25's >with 12-16mb. It was slow loading and glacial loading apps. Many >secretaries booted it with all their windows apps loaded so they didn't >have to wait for programs to load. They often ran Ami Pro v3.1 under win3.1 >since the Lotus Smartsuite was BEHIND the windows version for features. As a Win3.1 user it was no better on 386s and really didn't run usefully with less than 4mb and really wanted 8mb to behave well. >I'd bet they're switching to WinNT or Win9x (laptops) and going to >Microsoft Word for customer compatibility in a lot of cases. We were Win9x is a mess but can be made to work, WinNT4/workstation is better but you MUST be at SP4 or higher. It's the MS apps that are a pox on the world. ;-) Allison

26 years, 1 month

1
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Q-to-U translations

by oliv555＠arrl.net

Anyone on list familiar with the various Qbus/Unibus convertors that can help with this problem? Actually two, I'm trying to connect one Unibus expansion chassis to a Qbus host, PDP11/83. I've another Unibus chassis which I'd like to mate with a mVAX4100. I have the DEC M8217 and Able 10340 convertors but have not been able to find any documentation on either. Would either of these work or do I require a different product. I know Able made at least 4 of these variants. Able has not been very helpful in the past, general response going something like ...... we have a manual that may answer your question, its only $100.......... It just occured to me, I think the Able boards were meant to be plugged to the Qbus side, my situation requires a Unibus board, at least in the case of the 4100 project. Also, my 4100 manual completely glosses over its Qbus capability. Anyone know the p/n and or pinouts for the 4100 Qbus cable? Thanks in advance for any suggestions Nick

26 years, 1 month

1
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Sun type 4 & 5 keyboards FS in UK

by mark_k＠iname.com

Hi, I have several Sun Type 4 and Type 5 keyboards. Since I don't currently have any Sun hardware to test these with, I cannot say for sure whether they work. However they are in good physical condition, and I'll give a refund if they are DOA. Is 5 pounds each too much to ask for this sort of thing? -- Mark

26 years, 1 month

1
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OS/2

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 5/26/00 11:26:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, allisonp(a)world.std.com writes: > As I happen to have an IBM OS/2 warp V3 kit with bonus pak it makes me > want to play again with it. I did in the last outing try installing it and > it went well > but I found the interface feeling a bit strange. It sounds like it has > attributes > that would make it ideal for smaller 486s and any 386s with enough ram > but unlike some that want Multimedia I'd want IP (eithernet) networking. i love os/2's WPS! if i could find a os/2 type shell for linux, i'd switch in a minute. if you want networking, go get warp connect. i've been told that it's been tweaked a little after warp 3.0 came out. i have it running on a PS/2 server 95 with 48meg with scsi and i get full multimedia and can connect to my isp and my other machines. if DSL ever gets around here, i will use it to host my site. DB Young Team OS/2 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm

26 years, 1 month

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DIGITAL question.

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

John Wilson wrote: >Aren't there two different DEC logos anyway? A few years ago when they >decided it should be magenta and the colors should be fixed regardless of >what the logo is printed on top of, I thought they claimed that they were >slightly reshaping the characters too. I can't see the difference but >that doesn't mean it's not there... Or am I remembering wrong? I don't think there ever was "a font". I'm pretty sure they just drew the letters they needed, and in some cases they don't even match on the same nameplate. Most of the simple characters are purely line segments and constant-radius arcs, there are obviously some exceptions (the letter "a" in the "|d|i|g|i|t|a|l|", for example, in one font.) You can actually see *three* different - but similar - logo fonts in use on some manuals and equipment. For instance, the purple-and-magenta PDP-11 nameplates (the kind that go on top of a H960, for instance) have the top "|d|i|g|i|t|a|l|" in a fairly traditional (but a bit simplistic) Helvetica-ish font, while the bottom "digital equipment corporation, maynard, massachussets" is in a font that's more like hand printing, with some quirky lilts (like the way the top part of the "e" extends way to the right.) Then the font used for "decsystem" or "pdp11" is yet a third variation if it appears on the logo plate. The numerals are done in a particularly funky manner. My conclusion is that they just had a draftsman draw the letters as needed, without any real font steering committee :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 1 month

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PCDOS 2000

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 5/25/00 5:03:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wilson(a)dbit.dbit.com writes: > On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 03:56:22PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > > And DEC unloads the PDP11 to Mentec and OS/2 gets killed. > > Last I heard OS/2 was still very much alive, although IBM's attitude > towards it is surly to say the least. But unlike some companies I could > mention, IBM knows better than to refuse to accept money from their > customers > just because the customers want to buy something other than whatever new > toy the IBM management is excited about this week. So it will probably > keep getting *some* support as long as the customers are willing to pay > for it. > > John Wilson > D Bit there will be an OS2 version update later this year (4.5?) which will offer usb support amongst other things. recently fixpak 13 was announced. of course, downloading it all and installing it is a major task in itself. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm

26 years, 1 month

8
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DIGITAL question.

by sethm＠loomcom.com

I've got a strange question for former DIGITAL employees out there. It's not likely anyone will be able to answer, but it never hurts to ask. Does anyone know what font was used for the DIGITAL logo? I've never been able to find its exact match, and I'm wondering if anyone had any contact with the Corporate Identity people and might remember. (Kind of a long shot, I know) Thanks, -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm(a)loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> *

26 years, 1 month

5
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When new advertising meets old computers

by dpeschel＠eskimo.com

Target put a multipage color catalog in last Sunday's paper. The catalog combines full-page photos of people using outdoor toys (bicycles, snorkels, tents, etc.) with photos of the toys against garish solid-color backgrounds. Although the effect is rather unsettling (Life magazine meets Wired?) the strangest part is the image of *six-hole paper tape* that marches across the middles of all the pages. Obviously old computers have some sort of hold on our culture, though it could just be as an abstract design cliche. I haven't yet decoded the tape (if it says anyhthing at all). Luckily I just got _Computers and Typesetting_ which covers plenty of obscure typesetting codes (which is the only area I know of in which six-hole tape ever became popular). For non-US people: Target is a large "buy everything here" store, fancier than K Mart or Wal-Mart but still rather cheap. My mom sarcastically called it "Tar-ZHAY", as in the French pronounciation, for a while. :) -- Derek

26 years, 1 month

2
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VAXStations Available - Update

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

This is an update to my earlier post regarding the availability of VAXStation 4000 VLC's. It is being posted to both CLASSICCMP and port-vax(a)netbsd.org. The interest in these beasties has been strong, and I had some inquiries as to further details about the unit's innards and specs. With that in mind, here's what I've gotten so far. They are indeed VLC's. Actual model number: VS48K-CA Quantity available: 20. Each unit includes an LK401 keyboard and DEC three-button mouse (not the 'Hockey Puck' style... looks more like a rebadged Logitech). (Also available: One ea. VAXStation 4000/90, condition (like the others): Uknown, pulled from working setup). Installed memory: At least 24 MB. These units appear to use standard 72-pin FPM Parity SIMMs. Video subsystem: Difficult for me to tell. The video board has a bank of 16 each Toshiba part #TC524258BZ-10 memory chips installed. I -think- this means there's 4MB of video memory... someone check me on that, please? 1MB per bank of four chips? Anyway... more details on the video. The board has a 130.808 MHz oscillator, and sports the Bt RAMDAC and chip set. This could be good, bad, or indifferent... I don't know enough about such things to say. Chip numbers are Bt458LPJ135 for the RAMDAC, and Bt438K for the other chip. There do not appear to be any hard drives in any of the units, though I could be mistaken (I didn't examine them all). It does appear that the hard drive mounting brackets were left in, so putting a drive in the thing would not be a huge hassle. Price: $50.00 or best offer per unit plus shipping. Local pickup also available. Contact: Mark Dabek, RE-PC, Tukwila, WA. Phone is 206-575- 8737. Hours are Monday-Saturday, 10:00 - 19:00 Pacific time. Web is www.repc.com. Please tell him I referred you if you go and buy one or more. He likes to know where his business comes from. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!"

26 years, 1 month

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The "Bigger Picture"

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

I've already asked ... heck, told... Sellam that I don't want to continue the thread regarding what happened to Haltek. That still holds true. What I would like to add here, now that I've cooled down a bit, is some background on why I reacted as I did. I see the whole Bay Area mess -- skyrocketing housing prices, demand outpacing supply, etc. -- as only one symptom of a much larger pattern of badly distorted values and priorities that, to my eyes, has been developing at least since the mid-80's. That pattern is one of a culture that has, in large part, come to value money above all else. Above family, above skills, above the ability to create something that's truly an innovation (and I do NOT mean web-enabled refrigerators!), and above the ability to take something old, but still usable, and give it new life. Don't get me wrong: I'm not in any way against making a comfortable living, nor am I against a business making a fair profit. That would be as silly as expecting honest behavior out of White House politicians. What I do have a problem with is the pattern I see is "make as much money as you can in as short a time as you can, and to blazes with whoever you might screw, or what you might do to the long-term picture for the planet along the way, because money is the ONLY important thing!" That kind of thinking is as destructive, in the long term, to this world and everyone on it as a nuclear blast would be in the short term. I do not agree with such a warped philosophy. I do not subscribe to it. I will fight it in any way that I can, anywhere I can, in this world or wherever I end up in when my number comes up. I currently do so in many different ways, one of which is by preserving and using older technology that might otherwise serve to choke a landfill even higher than it already is. I think a lot of the list's members are the same way. Every surplus dealer that goes under represents, to my eyes, that much more possible content in the landfills, that much less of an opportunity for a budding hobbyist to learn what real "hacking" is, and that much more of a win for a the mindset of "Plug-and-Play- and-ThrowItAway" rather than doing a 'Quality Job.' Given the above, is it any wonder that I got ticked off when I learned of Haltek's demise, and (more specifically) how they'd come to an end? If Sellam, or anyone else on the list, wants to judge me as short-sighted, or lacking "perspective" because of these beliefs, then I can only say "Guilty as charged, and thanks for sharing your opinion." I'm not out to offend anyone, and I'm certainly not crazy enough to think that everyone is going to agree with me. That would be really dumb. All I was trying to do was express my disgust that a place I considered as a valued resource had been, in my view, unfairly forced out of business. If that did offend anyone, I apologize. Whatever the case, I think I will keep "death notices," as it were, on my web site instead of in the group. Thanks for reading. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!"

26 years, 1 month

1
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OS/2

by allisonp＠world.std.com

From: SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com <SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com> >a minute. if you want networking, go get warp connect. i've been told that >it's been tweaked a little after warp 3.0 came out. i have it running on a Where would I find that? I'm not warp savy, barely PC savy. >PS/2 server 95 with 48meg with scsi and i get full multimedia and can connect Hummm... How would that run on a 386sx/16 with 5mb? If not that a 486dx2/66 with 12mb. Allison

26 years, 1 month

1
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Apple DiskCopy 4.2 disk image format?

by eric＠brouhaha.com

Does anyone have (or know where to find) the specs for the Apple DiskCopy 4.2 disk image format? I know the specs were published (unlike the new Apple Disk Copy 6.x NDIF format), but searches with Altavista, Google, and Ask didn't turn them up. I have some raw disk images of 720K and 1440K diskettes on my web site, and I want to write a Linux program to take a raw image and turn it into an ADC4.2 image, so people with Macs can more easily deal with them. Eric

26 years, 1 month

1
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OS/2

by stevemas＠persys.com

Close, but not quite correct. GPF is a general protection fault, the most common problem is a bad or uninitialized pointer. What makes a DLL get loaded, or paged in, is a page fault. Its the same mechanism that causes a swapped out page to be swapped back in on a 4K boundary. At 02:56 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: > > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > > AT MICROSOFT! > > > > > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > > Press. > >While I agree OS/2 is a better operating system than Windows, this >book depressed me due to Gordon's wrongheaded-belief that a GPF >should always be considered an indicator of a programming problem. > >Since Intel didn't give us a pointer fault, the GPF is the only >proper way to implement dynamic linking. As they shipped, OS/2 >from version 1.0 to 1.2 never did properly implement dynamic linking; >and Windows inherits the wrong way from OS/2. > >Strangely, Ed Iacobucci (who was Gordon Letwin's counterpart at IBM) >wrote an article that appeared in a magazine that described OS/2's >dynamic linking as operating the way it should. > >The key difference is this: in real dynamic linking, CALL instructions >that are supposed to invoke procedures in a DLL are constructed in the >executable image such that when the processor executes the CALL, it >causes a GPF [pointer fault]; then the GPF handler looks at the faulting >instruction. If the pointer is a faulted pointer to a routine in a DLL, >then snap the link [map the DLL into memory and then modify the faulting >instruction to point to the entry point of the routine as described in >the DLL's export table], and restart the instruction. Otherwise, it's a bug >and you signal a condition which somehere generates an error message. >In this scenario, programs start up much faster because the OS is not >reading and linking every routine in the executable's import table. If >you never use feature <X> in the program, and if feature <X> resides >tottally in a separate DLL, then that DLL never gets mapped into RAM. >MUCH, MUCH better execution, more robust operation, in particular, the >machine wouldn't thrash at startup dur to all those programs in your >startup folder. > >Due to Ed's article, I always assumed that there was a turf was between >IBM and Microsoft on this and other salient technical points. MS won >and was wrong. > >So, having said that, you might see why I'm not a big fan of Letwin's. > >Shew! Glad I got _that_ off my chest again. > >respectfully submitted, >-doug quebbeman - Steve Mastrianni

26 years, 1 month

3
6
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Bootable Floppy from CD?

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

In an effort to preserve all my miscellaneous driver floppies I've been copying them to CD-rom. I figured I should also do this for my DOS 6.3 disks but realized that I don't know how to create a bootable DOS 6.3 system disk from the disk itself. I've considered using dd(1) on unix to create just the disk image that I can later use dd to copy back out but was wondering if perhaps there was a better way. --Chuck

26 years, 1 month

11
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A moment of silence...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

>Yes, seems more and more people here have been watching "Wall Street" (the >movie and the real thing) and embracing Sam Geckoe's motto, "Greed . . . is >good." Seems to be the way of the new millenium, starting with the gas >pumps. Nah, the move was a late comer, the gas gag was done 28 years ago and then pulled out every 12-15 for another try. They get away with it every time. Allison

26 years, 1 month

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Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I have a Lisa 2/5 that doesn't want to work. Here's some things that I've found out in the process of troubleshooting it. (1) The PS in the 2/5 and the 2/10 are interchangeable but the 2/5 PS has a lower capacity. (2/10 and the Mac XL hardware are the same). (2) The card cage must be installed in a before the PS will turn on but the memory and I/O cards need not be installed. (3) The CPU does not have to be installed for the PS to work but if it's not installed the PS will keep resetting and will make a chirping sound. (4) The card cages for the 2/5 and 2/10 have different brackets and don't appear to be interchangeable. (5) An I/O card from a 2/10 will work in a 2/5, at least properly enough to power it on and get a display. >(6) A "bad" I/O card in a 2/5 will prevent the PS from turning on and will cause the PS to appear defective.< (see note 2!) My 2/5 will not power on. I installed a known good PS from a 2/10 and it still doesn't work. The 2/5 PS DOES work in the 2/10 so it is good. The 2/5 will power up with an I/O board from a 2/10 or with no I/O board installed so the problem appears to be in the I/O board. The battery condition seems to not matter. Does anyone have a schematic of the interlocks and interconnects for the Lisa 2/5 or know what signals the power supply gets from the I/O board? Joe

26 years, 1 month

5
9
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OS/2

by allisonp＠world.std.com

>OS/2 was modified at 2.0 to include a flat memory model. Apps and DLLs went >to 32-bit flat model code. Legacy apps got their APIs thunked to 32-bits. >It was also possible to use legacy DLLs from 32-bit apps, which got their >APIs thunked 32 to 16 and back. Some called it a hack, for IBM it was a way >to get legacy 1.x apps to run in 2.x. Older DOS and Win apps were run the >V86 mode, each with their own 1MB sandbox. > >Of course none of that matters now. 8-) As I happen to have an IBM OS/2 warp V3 kit with bonus pak it makes me want to play again with it. I did in the last outing try installing it and it went well but I found the interface feeling a bit strange. It sounds like it has attributes that would make it ideal for smaller 486s and any 386s with enough ram but unlike some that want Multimedia I'd want IP (eithernet) networking. Allison

26 years, 1 month

1
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EQUIPMENT ALERT: MultiBus goodies & VAXen!

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

CC'd to Port-VAX and Classiccmp... Hi, folks, The local (Seattle) used computer place I work with on occasion has turned up a whole stack of DEC VAXStation 4000's (desktop/'pizza box' configuration). I think these are the VLC model. Very little is known about them, though I also saw a whole pile of in-the-box LK401 keyboards with them. I'm pretty sure the owner of the place would let 'em go pretty cheap, especially since they're mainly a PC store. If there's any interest in these, let me know and I'll go over one or more in detail. Now, on the MultiBus front: The Seattle store has turned up a MultiBus computer that's full of boards, and at least one tape drive. It's in a rack chassis, pretty light for its size, and has a whole slew of serial ports (9-pinners) on the backside. It also has an SMD disk controller, and what appears to be a SCSI adapter (at least it's tied to a SCSI/QIC-xx bridge board to run the cartridge tape drive). Again, if there's any interest, let me know (and please include any offers -- don't be shy!) and I'll see what I can do to rescue the beastie. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!"

26 years, 1 month

2
1
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OS/2

by allain＠panix.com

My neatest memory regarding OS/2 is of seeing a demonstration on 'Computer Chronicles' all the way back in 1987-88. It was more than a decent, polished demo of multitasking and enterprise apps. The wild thing about it was that the point man seen on the air was Lee Reiswig himself, who I found out later was at the executive level. If you watched Computer Chronicles very much you knew that unless it was a 10-50 man company the demonstrator was always a tech or sales guy. For IBM to send a VP, and for the Demo to have worked as well as it did really made it stand out in the context of that show. Lee got my respect for being more than just a title for that. (A little like, but better, watching Alex Trotman change oil on Michael Moore's 'TV Nation') John A.

26 years, 1 month

1
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Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

At 09:26 AM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: >> FWIW I usually use an old disk drive. It's very handy since many >> computers already have a power connector that will plug >> directly onto the >> drive and it provides a load to both the +12 and +5 volt >> power supplies. >> > >Joe, > >Aren't you afraid of damaging the disk drive by doing that? Just kidding... >;-) That's why I only use DEC drives! Just kidding :-) Joe

26 years, 1 month

1
0
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CT Miniframe

by rdd＠smart.net

Greetings, Are there still users on this list who've used a CT Miniframe running CTIX and have experience installing the OS from tapes? -- R. D. Davis rdd(a)perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900

26 years, 1 month

2
1
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Prime Parts: was "Documenting how old computers..."

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

I've got a small Pr1me buried somewhere in my garage. I'm not prositive but, I *think* it's a 2550. It's a complete system but, it has a bad CPU. That being the case, I'll make any of the parts available for anyone that's looking to resurrect one. Let me know exactly what parts you need and I'll see if I have them. I'm really not too familiar with that hardware so, you'll have be *real* specific about the parts you need. I also have a bunch of Pr1me DOCs (many still in the shrink wrap) if someone needs them. I'd like to get a token fee for the parts and of course you'd have to pay shipping from South Florida. Later, Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Quebbeman [mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com] > Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 3:23 PM > To: 'classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: Documenting how old computers were used > > > I'm working on some sources for spares; but I'm not even sure > what I'll find in the machine. The owner had a stroke around > Christmas, and some things are returning more slowly than others. > > But I'll definitely be needed either a 7110 or 7210 SCSI controller > and an LHC300 ethernet controller. > > So, what's a Xyplex? > > -doug q >

26 years, 1 month

1
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Unix TERMCAP contains interesting historyical tidbits

by foo＠siconic.com

I was going through the Unix TERMCAP on this Linux box I'm setting up and noticed that it contains quite a few tidbits about classic computers in there. It actually has some useful info for research. There is even a section describing the dip switches on the Heathkit H19 terminal. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details!

26 years, 1 month

1
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Documenting how old computers were used

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> > Any other Pr1me fans hanging out here??? > > Yep. I'm the proud keeper of a 2550 with assorted spares, > media and boxloads of manuals. I purchased this machine > from John, who in turn had purchased it from the original > owner, who in turn has been helpful in bringing it back > to life. > > The plan remains to make this thing available on the Net > via the xyplex I've got sitting here, but I need to re-rack > it first -- it's original rack was lost somewhere along the > way and it's present rack doesn't provide adequate > airflow :-( Yeah, you're the guy I was thinking of when I was talking to someone else (I asked him if he was the guy from Maine, but he's down in Tennessee). I'm working on some sources for spares; but I'm not even sure what I'll find in the machine. The owner had a stroke around Christmas, and some things are returning more slowly than others. But I'll definitely be needed either a 7110 or 7210 SCSI controller and an LHC300 ethernet controller. So, what's a Xyplex? -doug q

26 years, 1 month

1
0
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OS/2

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > AT MICROSOFT! > > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > Press. While I agree OS/2 is a better operating system than Windows, this book depressed me due to Gordon's wrongheaded-belief that a GPF should always be considered an indicator of a programming problem. Since Intel didn't give us a pointer fault, the GPF is the only proper way to implement dynamic linking. As they shipped, OS/2 >from version 1.0 to 1.2 never did properly implement dynamic linking; and Windows inherits the wrong way from OS/2. Strangely, Ed Iacobucci (who was Gordon Letwin's counterpart at IBM) wrote an article that appeared in a magazine that described OS/2's dynamic linking as operating the way it should. The key difference is this: in real dynamic linking, CALL instructions that are supposed to invoke procedures in a DLL are constructed in the executable image such that when the processor executes the CALL, it causes a GPF [pointer fault]; then the GPF handler looks at the faulting instruction. If the pointer is a faulted pointer to a routine in a DLL, then snap the link [map the DLL into memory and then modify the faulting instruction to point to the entry point of the routine as described in the DLL's export table], and restart the instruction. Otherwise, it's a bug and you signal a condition which somehere generates an error message. In this scenario, programs start up much faster because the OS is not reading and linking every routine in the executable's import table. If you never use feature <X> in the program, and if feature <X> resides tottally in a separate DLL, then that DLL never gets mapped into RAM. MUCH, MUCH better execution, more robust operation, in particular, the machine wouldn't thrash at startup dur to all those programs in your startup folder. Due to Ed's article, I always assumed that there was a turf was between IBM and Microsoft on this and other salient technical points. MS won and was wrong. So, having said that, you might see why I'm not a big fan of Letwin's. Shew! Glad I got _that_ off my chest again. respectfully submitted, -doug quebbeman

26 years, 1 month

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Paper tape format

by RCini＠congressfinancial.com

>From the "just out of curiosity" department... What is the punch format used for a paper tape that would be used on an Altair or IMSAI? Is it straight binary or something like the Intel Hex format? The reason why I'm asking is because I'm toying with adding a virtual paper tape punch/reader to Claus Guiloi's IMSAI emulator. Rich

26 years, 1 month

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OS/2

by bwit＠pobox.com

At 10:41 AM 5/26/00 -0700, you wrote: >Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin >AT MICROSOFT! > > >You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft >Press. > I had always thought this was a really good read. I still have a couple of copies laying around somewhere. Long ago while working a bug in HPFS I got to work with Gordon over the phone. Sometimes I really miss the old days. I'll have to go home and dig out my "Microsoft OS/2" coffee mug :-) Bob

26 years, 1 month

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Strange box

by mranalog＠home.com

************** I'm sending this again because my first attempt went to classiccmp-classiccmp-org(a)jade.tseinc.com and was rejected. If you are receiving a second copy of this,ignore it. ************** Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> wrote: > I found this in a pile of surplus computers yesterday. Can anyone tell > me what it is? It looks like an ordinary external 5 1/4" drive box but on > the back of the box it has a DB-25M connector marked "MODEM/CPU" and a > DB-25F connector marked "TERMINAL". There's also a rotary switch labeled > "RATE" with positions marked "10", "30", "120", "240", "480", 960" and > "EXT". Then there's a toggle switch with positions marked "BIN CTRL ON" > "ODD" and "EVEN". And another toggle switch with positons marked "FULL" and > "HALF". It has a socket for a standard AC line cord. It's made by Techtran > Industries of Rochester, N.Y. and it's a model 950A. My guess is that it's > a disk drive that's made to go between a terminal and it's MODEM or > computer but I've never heard of one before. If that's what it is, then > how do you give it coomands? Joe, I don't think this is one of those file-system/data logger type drives,I have one of those and it has a keypad on the front of the drive you use to open a disk file before dumping serial data to it and to close the file when you're done. Instead, I think you have a CP/M computer. It sounds alot like my PMC 101 "MicroMate". http://www.best.com/~dcoward/ebay/micromat.jpg The MicroMate is about the same size as and looks like a TRS-80 Model 1 disk drive. On the back it has DB-25s for "Terminal" and "Modem". It weights only 10 pounds but when you open the case there is a DSDD 400K floppy drive, a power supply and a board that runs the length of the case, which is a 128K 4Mhz Z80A based CP/M computer. If this is the "case" - you'll need a boot disk. What is inside this box of yours? --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ====================================================

26 years, 1 month

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OS/2

by xds_sigma7＠hotmail.com

Irregardless, IBM paid Microsoft to develop OS/2... there's even a real MS-branded OS/2, but they sold it for less than a year, so its a bit less than common... amusingly, LAN Manager REQUIRES OS/2 to run, and MS kept selling LAN Manager for a good amount of time after they canned OS/2... Almost everyone under the sun had their own little branded LAN Manager version once, such as 3Com, DEC, IBM, etc. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

26 years, 1 month

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Items for trade

by rdd＠smart.net

Is anyone interested in trading a pair of what appear to be two 256K Unibus memory boards, made by National Semiconductor Memory Systems (these boards have four rows of thirty-two 4164-15 ICs on them), for two of the following: - DEUNA for a PDP-11 - RS232 interface for a PDP-8/e - TK50 Q-bus controller - some other board I don't have and can use - or... will trade both memory boards for one Q-bus 32-bit SCSI interface. Other things available: Emulex Performance 4000 terminal server; has a short in it somewhere. Either fix it and get a working server, or, turn it back in to Emulex and for just a couple of hundred bucks, get a reconditioned working server! (this was the case the last time I contacted Emulex) Make me an offer. Sun Field Engineers Handbooks: like new condition for the newer (not very newest) SPARC machines... these don't go back to the older Sun 4 and Sun 3 systems, which I need the handbooks for. Some sort of ethernet board for a QMS printer, marked as: QMS DTRBD, ETHRNT, 16BIT, CROWN, 2293117. The box it came in has "Appletalk for QMS860" written on it, but documentation in the box says "QMS UNIX Host Software." The following I'd prefer to trade locally (Baltimore area): An IBM 4701-1 bank branch controller system; comes with three small Geac terminals (sans keyboards!) and some other sort of interface units, cables, etc. Interesting looking toy for those into IBM stuff, and includes documentation (a book inside the cabinet!). I'll bet that with some hacking, this could be made into some sort of dedicated controller of some sort for an application not requiring much CPU speed or memory. Fascinating looking bus, boards, etc. Contains an 8" floppy drive. Things I'm looking for: - anything DEC-related (could use a cabinet tell enough to put an 11/44 CPU and four RL02 drives in) - PDP-8/e boards (esp. hard drive or RS232 interface) and an additional backplane - ULTRIX 4.2 installation media to replace the now missing /usr directory on my Decstation - OS for a MIPS Magnum 3000 on a cartridge tape, as well as any documentation for this system - Data General system running 16-bit AOS/VS, preferable something small like an MV-2,000/4,000 (I want to see "Nothing happens." in response to XYZZY, not "Twice as much happens.") -- R. D. Davis rdd(a)perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900

26 years, 1 month

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Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply]

by xds_sigma7＠hotmail.com

Heh, I've been considering turning this 8650 hulk I know of into a VAXshelf... It'd be a great bookshelf for my gray wall ;p FYI, before the flames start, the cpu boards are 1) not in the machine, and 2) broken. I know this cuz I dug them out of a nasty container of junk at the scrap yard :( But at least the 8650 wouldn't take much juice to run, at least not compared to my 4381... Takes much less sans power supplies though! Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

26 years, 1 month

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OFF TOPIC: Cool Hack

by jpl15＠netcom.com

I might as well slither onto the OT Bandwagon... I submitted a design some years back (which was shelved... snif snif) for an array of LEDs to be affixed to the blades of a typical ceiling fan. These would get thier power and signals from induction coils on the frame of said fan, and would provide kewl displays as the fan turned (in the dark especially). I made a single-array prototype... it worked fine. The company just didn't market it... o well. ON TOPIC: I also went to VCFE (I guess Sellam forgot that part... ) and took several dozen pictures. I am uploading them to Hans Franke, and he will put them on the Website for public viewing. Kudos and Hats Off to Hans, Sellam, Phillip Belben, John Zabolitski, and all the others who worked thier _____es off to make it a success. Cheers John

26 years, 1 month

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Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us?

by RCini＠congressfinancial.com

No ethical dilema here! I don't feel bad about posting this stuff at all because (1) the equipment isn't being sold any more, (2) the docs have been left to rot by the original owner and (3) the docs are too valuable to the vintage computing community to not make them available. I just think that some of the free-wheeling underpinnings of the Internet were taken out back and shot and buried in the end zone next to Hoffa. Rich -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer GAWD! [mailto:foo@siconic.com] Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 1:29 PM To: 'ClassCompList' Subject: Re: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? On Thu, 11 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: > How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with > my efforts until someone tells me to stop. I say tally ho old chap. That's probably the best course of action. Just post the material to at least make it useful until which time you are explicitly told by the copyright holder to remove it. The worst they can do is ask you to remove it (cease and desist). Might as well keep this stuff alive as long as there is a need for it and as long as the original copyright holder has no plans for it. As long as the original copyright holder is no longer marketing it and it's not being sold for a profit then I don't see an ethical dilemma. Sellam

26 years, 1 month

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Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

> FWIW I usually use an old disk drive. It's very handy since many > computers already have a power connector that will plug > directly onto the > drive and it provides a load to both the +12 and +5 volt > power supplies. > Joe, Aren't you afraid of damaging the disk drive by doing that? Just kidding... ;-) Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 1 month

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Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: N otes on repa...

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

> Anyone who reads this list on even a semi-regular basis knows > that Mr. Rigdon > is well aware of what a short is. Why the put-down? Do you > think that you > are conducting a high-school electric shop class and talking > to a bunch of > eighth-graders? > Personally, I have never received anything from Joe Rigdon > except help when I needed it, which is more than I can say of you. I too have received considerable help from Joe and consider him to be *extremely* competent. Changing the PS in a Lisa is not exactly "Rocket Science" although he *does* have experience in that arena as well ;-) Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 1 month

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MCA Ethernet Cards

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 5/26/00 1:31:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dlinder(a)uiuc.edu writes: > I have recently stumbled on large stash of MicroChannel Ethernet Cards. > I'm thinking of taking the whole bunch (brother & I have a large ps/2 > colelction), but would have leftovers for all to partake in. I heard > these are generally hard to find, so let me know if you're interested. > > Ah yes, if I remember, they're various makes & models. keep a lookout for cabletron and 3com 3c509 models. you will have the least compatibility problems with those two NICs and they even work in os/2 most MCA T/R NICs will have a 16/4 sticker on them which is a dead giveaway for token ring. DB Young -> MCA and OS/2 user and enthusiast hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm

26 years, 1 month

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MCA Ethernet Cards

by dlinder＠uiuc.edu

All: I have recently stumbled on large stash of MicroChannel Ethernet Cards. I'm thinking of taking the whole bunch (brother & I have a large ps/2 colelction), but would have leftovers for all to partake in. I heard these are generally hard to find, so let me know if you're interested. Ah yes, if I remember, they're various makes & models. ttfn - Dan Linder / dlinder(a)uiuc.edu / upside(a)mcs.net - - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... -

26 years, 1 month

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Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply]

by mgregory＠vantageresearch.com

-----Original Message----- From: R. D. Davis <rdd(a)smart.net> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000 4:57 PM Subject: Re: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] <snip> > >Not always. E.g., a device like a PSU that was working, and is then >moved, can have a bit of metal, solder, etc. come lose and short >something out. > I'll concede this point if you're moving it across the country, where careless shippers can bang it around and jar something loose. But when moving it across the room from one system to another, I'd say the chances of a catastrophic failure are small. >Yes, right... fry that system and then sell it on e-bay, that's ok, >because it will still bring a high price, so who cares whether it >works, right? Turn the monitors into fishbowls, remove core memory >and sell it in a picture frame, because, who cares if these are used >again since they can bring big bucks on e-bay. > You're missing the points I was trying to make. Firstly, Lisas are relatively common; thousands were built and thousands survive. It's not like we were talking about, say, an Apple I, where only 600-odd were made, and only a couple of hundred survive. The stakes in using slightly risky trouble-shooting techniques to fix a Lisa are low. Secondly, I care a lot about whether old computers work. Most of the 60+ systems in my collection work, and I'm always trying to find parts and information to fix the ones that don't. But I accept the reality that sometimes old computers die, and get used as donors to fix others. And I was trying to point out that since Lisa's fetch very high prices these days, Joe could even recover some of his investment even in the worst case scenario. The idea of accidentally blowing up a Lisa seems to bother you a lot. If you want to save every single remaining classic computer that exists, you're going to need a bigger apartment / house / warehouse / city to live in, because you're going to need a _lot_ of room. Finally, I think you need to remember that if you've never met someone, and know nothing about them, it's rude to make assumptions about or disparage their intelligence, character, or attitudes. Even in e-mail. And that's my final word on the matter Mark.

26 years, 1 month

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Altair parts substitutions

by allisonp＠world.std.com

>> The 8101 dual-port 256bx4 RAM is no longer available, but Jameco has a 5101 >> which looks like a likely sub. > >Check the timing specs; the 5101 might be slower. To run at 8080/2mhz it needs to be 600ns or better. In 1975 5101s were typically 1000ns or the fast ones at 850. > >Also, 8101 is just a different marketing designation for 2101, just like >8702 for 1702, etc. The 2101 should be easier to find. > >Apparently Intel's marketing people didn't think that engineers would be >able to figure out that their standard RAM, ROM, PROM, and EPROM >products would work with the 8080, so they introduced 8xxx-series part >numbers for them. No, not quite. It was a marketing thing to "bundle" parts with like numbers to indicate compatability for sales. The best of those was the 8205 that was really a 74138 but intel kept claiming it was a similar but gltich free part. I cracked one open to prove a point and th intel part was a TI 74138 die. Kitting, the name used by those in the trade back then was intels way of insuring they didn't get cherry picked for the 8224 and 8212 while AMD got the 8080 order along with someone else getting the ram order. Allison

26 years, 1 month

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Altair parts substitutions

by allisonp＠world.std.com

>.. very close. Apparently there was a process difference. >> Though intel did at times morph one part/process into another. > >According to the 1980 Component Data Catalog, the specifications for >the 3205 (p. 2-22) and 8205 (p. 6-45) are identical. DC, AC, and all >the graphs. By 1980 intel was shifting to mos/Hmos/HmosII and by then those parts were way down the the process scaling and 32xx were nearly extinct. In 76, that was not the case. Keep in mind my comment that intel did morph parts into one another. Allison

26 years, 1 month

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Altair parts substitutions

by allisonp＠world.std.com

>I don't think this was an accident, nor was it a mistake. The only >reference I've ever heard/read made to a bipolar fab under Intel's ownership >has been from you. It's not unlikely that I could have missed it, being I worked for their competitor from 79 to 84 so I'd have to know that. I never said they had a lot of capacity, they did however do bipolar as a supporting technology. Allison

26 years, 1 month

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Paper tape format

by allisonp＠world.std.com

>I suppose one could use a hex format, but I've never seen anything under >CP/M other than binary. Normally it's loaded into memory and then saved to >disk. The common file format for ASM output and LOAD input as well as DDT was intel HEX format. it would be logical to puch tape in that format as it had checksum. I'd add that the OS enforced no format for PUNCH and READER devices other than you could present 8bit and recive 8bit data if you cared to. Allison >> What is the punch format used for a paper tape that would be used on an >> Altair or IMSAI? Is it straight binary or something like the Intel Hex >> format? >> >> The reason why I'm asking is because I'm toying with adding a virtual >>paper tape punch/reader to Claus Guiloi's IMSAI emulator. >> >> >> Rich

26 years, 1 month

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Altair parts substitutions

by allisonp＠world.std.com

>> However no one ever supplied the 3000 two bit slice other than intel. > >I don't know if they ever actually supplied them, but I have a 1978 >Signetics 'Bipolar and MOS microprocessors' Databook that lists the >S/N3001 microprogam control unit and the S/N3002 Central Processing >Element. AFAIK they are equivalent to the Intel parts. > >The UK availability chart on the inside cover seem to imply that the >3000-series were available from Signetics in the UK. Sig was the second source for many and made few if any. >The same book also lists the 2901-1 4-bit bit-slice, the 8x300, the 8080, >SC/MP-II and the 2650. And a number of peripheral devices. >One other 'fun' item in the book is the 3000KT8080SK. This is a kit (PCB >+ components) to make an 8080-compatible CPU using 3000 bit-slice. I >would _love_ to see the documentation (which included schematics and >microprogram listings) for this kit ;-) It's been years but I've seen the intel version of that kit. I ahve the signetics catalog but never met anyone that could get half the parts in it. Allison

26 years, 1 month

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Question about PC-MOS

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

Has anybody heard of an OS called "PC-MOS"? I'm supposed to pick up a system on Saturday that runs that OS and was wondering what the heck it is. Thanks, Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 1 month

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Bootable Floppy from CD?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 5/24/00 10:05:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, richard(a)idcomm.com writes: > I've never encountered that version 6.3. I've got a few sets of install > disketted for DOS 6.21, which was made up for DELL, specifically without the > compression support in it or among its utilities. I, havning spent much > time testing the more popular compression schemes, am an avid user of > compression. I've found it to be no more problem-prone than plain-vanilla > DOS, yet the maintenance tools (scandisk) seem to work better on compressed > volumes than on uncompressed. Compression does seem to enhance disk > subsystem preformance. If you have a solid backup regimen, you should never > have to worry about data loss just because you use compression. I found > that DRVSPACE yielded about a 15% performance increase and had no added risk > of system failure. I also found that the risk of data loss was actually > lower (based on my substantial but still relatively small data sample) than > that with uncompressed data, probably due to the more effective error > management tools. > I use pcdos 6.3 and 7.0. much better than msdos i think, and i prefer the editor. how in the world can one realise 15% performance increase running disk compression? logic would indicate a degradation since you are running an extra task to compress the hard drive not to mention less memory space in the UMBs to load the compression driver high. i do not use any sort of disk compression and never recommend it to anyone. i supported end users, and there were too many times when users compressed their hard drives, and ended up hosing them. only option to them was fdisk and reinstall. K.I.S.S. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm

26 years, 1 month

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Question about PC-MOS

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

Mult-user clone of MS/PC-DOS, was from a company called TSL (The Software Link). hth, -dq -----Original Message----- From: Steve Robertson [mailto:steverob@hotoffice.com] Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 4:13 PM To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org Subject: Question about PC-MOS Has anybody heard of an OS called "PC-MOS"? I'm supposed to pick up a system on Saturday that runs that OS and was wondering what the heck it is. Thanks, Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 1 month

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Altair parts substitutions

by allisonp＠world.std.com

- > I was talking about Intel's 5 volt '08. They may have been >called 2758 or 2508, I don't recall. As far as I know, >Intel never specifically made a 5 volt 1Kx8 EPROM die, only >the 2Kx8. TI was first out with a single rail '08 and was Yes they did. early 2758 was half good 2716. Later it was small die 1k as there was market demand. >doing in the 2708 sales from Intel. That is when Intel started >relabling the half bad 2716's( Yes, I know that the pinout are the 2708 was a different pinout from the 2716. >to do with what we were talking about? ). Early on these half >bad parts were cheaper than 2716's but later in their life, >they were list as being more expensive. EBayism struck, later they were nearly out of production and Rare. But the products that needed them lived on. hance the high price near end of life. Allison >Dwight >\

26 years, 1 month

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Altair parts substitutions

by allisonp＠world.std.com

>> Yes, but ... the 5-volt parts were costing on the order of $100 per piece. >> I bought a bunch for a project and still remember the "sticker-shock," >> though it wasn't any better a year later when I had to buy 2732's. In the >> latter case, I sold them for $25 each to a west-coast surplus vendor who >> turned around and sold them for $80 each. I paid $11 each for a handful of 2508s in late 1976. A year later 2716s were 12$. 2732s were much later and more costly, in 1979(late) I paid a whopping 15$ each. > I find it interesting that after the 2716's were out for a while, >and the price had dropped to someplace in the $5-$10 range someplace, The halfgood part 2758 was used on the IMSAI IMP-48 in 1977! >the intel 2508's were still in the high $30's. This always >amused me because there was no difference at all between the >Intel 2716 and the 2508 other than the 2508 was a half bad >2716. I call that real good sales to take bad parts and get BZZT! 2708 was three voltage and the 2716 was 5V huge difference in pin out too. The problem was many vendors were gouging for them and STILL! Allison

26 years, 1 month

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