- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Craig Smith <ip500(a)roanoke.infi.net> wrote: > Now that brings back some memories! 1969-72 at Franklin Pierce College > writing assembly and Fortran IV stuff for a 360/60 that we timeshared > with a bunch of other schools. I/O was a Teletype machine with a > cardpunch and reader hooked up to it. The good old days??? I don't think > so! You've never know true Hell until you drop a huge deck of cards > you've worked on for a week. Craig Didn't you learn the trick of drawing a diagonal line across the deck from front to back and left to right? It's not perfect, but you get most of the cards very close to their original positions the first time. You _were_ using a printing punch, right? -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/

26 years

3
2
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CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How?

by allain＠panix.com

> Can somene kindly tell me how to lock/unlock the heads on a CDC model > PA5N1F15 9" hard drive? Well, mine's a PA5G1M-20 (8.5x10x30", 9" platters) and it has its own auto-solenoid, which is easy to see. Just look on the platter case for a silverish round thing about 1.5". You should see it has a two wire connector and can be unscrewed from the mounting plate w/ a twist. > BTW, according to the label, this is an FSD drive - is this > the type of interface, or do I actually have an SMD drive? I belieeeeve that FSD's are just small SMD's. They seemed to have the same cabling as I recall. I couldn't find info on the PA5G1M anywhere so I found another number on the unit, "97150-340 FSD-340" and that seeked to a Seagate (guess they bought out CDC SMD's), here: http://www.mm.mtu.edu/drives/seagate/smd/st6344j.txt Here it says this FSD is a SMD. Perhaps your drive is there... first get the other model number. And we wonder why we subscribe to this list. John A

26 years

3
3
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Programming on Paper

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

On June 17, Dave McGuire wrote: > On June 17, Mike Ford wrote: > > >Having a machine to interact with allows you to test your code on the spot > > >and if you are writing in an interpreted language the error-checking the > > >interpreter provides is a godsend for the coder. Why anyone would code > > >without the interaction of the target machine is beyond me. > > > > I write perfect code, like Mozart it flows out in its final form to the > > paper, and then to the system. > > Time for the hip waders, folks...it's getting deep in here. ;) Ok, here's a quote from one of my favorite computer scientists (Tom VanVleck, who might respond to being so identified as "Me? I'm just a programmer!"): : It is possible to write perfect, bug-free code. I've seen : it done, with no tool except a pencil. The essential ingredient : is a decision, by the individual programmer, to make the code : perfect, and not to release it until it is perfect. The quote is from an article of his on the Multicians web site: http://www.multicians.org/thvv/evolution.html I left my last job as a full-time programmer in 1990. A young Russian (who had written some of the software tools used in generating the control programming for Snowflake, the never-used Soviet space shuttle) was assigned to take over my work. In the month we worked together, we became friends, and so stayed in touch after I left. A couple or three years later, Dmitri and I were having lunch, and feeling a mood which had me wondering if I'd done the right thing in giving up programming, I asked him how much trouble he'd had with my code. "None." I probed deeper, knowing he was a good programmer and that he might have misinterpreted the thrust of the question. Right out, I asked him if he would character the severity and frequency of the bugs left in the extensive codebase I'd pushed. He stopped me, saying he'd understood me perfectly the first time, and said "No bugs in your code, Doug; you write best assembly language." If only I could have found an employer who felt that way! I was ultimately fired because the boss cared more about expeditiousness than about quality. That, and I think he tired of some of my behavioral quirks..... ;-) -doug q -doug q

26 years

6
6
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Programming on Paper

by jdarren＠ala.net

Sounds like you have a problem with anal retention. When I first started in programming (1977), we had to create *complete* technical design documents before a single line of code was written. This included technical specs, data diagrams, flowcharts, screen shots, etc... About 6 weeks ago, I was evaluating a fairly complex software project and and asked the engineer to provide a flowchart of how the application worked. He stated that he didn't see the value of a flowchart and that it would slow down the development process. In his opinion, it was much easier to just read the code. I was tempted to kick his ass, but decided the best way to handle this was to prove the value of proper documentation. So, I waded through his code, found the most complex module, and created a comprehensive flowchart of just that module. Now the fun part... I got the engineer, his supervisor, our VP of technology, and another non-technical co-worker (whom had never seen the project) together for a quick quiz. I gave the flowchart to the non-technical person and started asking the group fundimental questions like; "how many parameters are passed to and from the module", "what happens if an out-of-bounds value is passed", "what is the exact sequence of events when..." blah, blah, blah. Almost instantly, the non-technical person was able to answer the questions while the two engineers waded through hundreds of lines of code. Within 30 minutes, I was able to totally embarrass the engineer *and* his supervisor in front of the VP. Shoulda kicked his ass anyway... ;-) Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years

1
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Programming on Paper

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

> I've met programmers who 'design' like that as well -- they > type in some code, then fiddle with loop limits, ands versus ors, > etc until the program gives the 'right answers' on the test values. Is it > any wonder some programs contain bugs.. When I first started in programming (1977), we had to create *complete* technical design documents before a single line of code was written. This included technical specs, data diagrams, flowcharts, screen shots, etc... About 6 weeks ago, I was evaluating a fairly complex software project and and asked the engineer to provide a flowchart of how the application worked. He stated that he didn't see the value of a flowchart and that it would slow down the development process. In his opinion, it was much easier to just read the code. I was tempted to kick his ass, but decided the best way to handle this was to prove the value of proper documentation. So, I waded through his code, found the most complex module, and created a comprehensive flowchart of just that module. Now the fun part... I got the engineer, his supervisor, our VP of technology, and another non-technical co-worker (whom had never seen the project) together for a quick quiz. I gave the flowchart to the non-technical person and started asking the group fundimental questions like; "how many parameters are passed to and from the module", "what happens if an out-of-bounds value is passed", "what is the exact sequence of events when..." blah, blah, blah. Almost instantly, the non-technical person was able to answer the questions while the two engineers waded through hundreds of lines of code. Within 30 minutes, I was able to totally embarrass the engineer *and* his supervisor in front of the VP. Shoulda kicked his ass anyway... ;-) Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years

2
1
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Source for 88k systems?

by ryan＠inc.net

I'm looking for a 88k based system, preferably a Moto MVME. Anyone have one they'd like to sell to an 88k nut? Thanks, Ryan Brooks ryan(a)inc.net

26 years

2
1
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Texas Universites Surplus

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

At 06:06 PM 6/12/00 -0400, Pat wrote: > >Another snag you might run into is the problem with funding agencies. >When I was at Carnegie-Mellon, I worked on a DoD-sponsored research >project. We never surplussed *anything*, and we never threw anything >away (at least, in the 2.5 years that I was there). The reason was, that >our funding agency (who had paid for all of our hardware) required that, >if we wanted to surplus something, we had to first go through a process to >put it on a list to offer it to other government agencies. Only after the >equipment had been on this list for several months, with no interest from >any other agencies, could we dispose of it. We were told at the time that >the estimated time from deciding to surplus something, until we were >actually permitted to do so (assuming that it was not snapped up by >another agency in the meantime), was at least 12 months. > I'd say that if they can surplus an item in only 12 months then they're doing extremely well. I see lots of surplus computers and test equipment and ALL of it has been in storage for at least 5 five years. Some of them have been in storage for over 10 years. For example, I just picked up two HP 9825s. Both of them have tags stating that they were removed from operation in 1995 and that they must be recalibrated or tested before being returned to service. Joe

26 years

1
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New stuff! Wahoo!

by rexstout＠uswest.net

Added about a dozen boxes of Macintosh software and some minor hardware items to the collection, as well as a TRS-80 Model 100 with some books and a few ROM modules. Seems to be working just fine, but the bottom is covered in duct tape to keep some covers from falling off. Even got a modem cable! Oh yeah, and three boxes of aviation material, including several flight computers(Jeppesen CR-5 and CR-2, a plastic Dalton E-6B, a Cessna Model 185 computer, a Delta II Take-off computer, a half-plastic half-metal Dalton E-6B, a pair of CPU-26A/P's(all-metal), and a pair of Weems aircraft plotters). In the Mac stuff there are tons of programs, at least a half dozen copies of PageMaker, lots of odds and ends(what the heck do you do with a financial planner desk accessory? I don't even know if MacOS 8 supports those!) that I haven't sorted through yet. The MacSnap box was empty :-(, but there was an external 800k floppy drive. Anyone know of any good sites for TRS-80 stuff? OK, now the interesting part... It's an 8-volume book set called "The Secret Guide to Computers", tenth edition. Popular BASIC(Vol 1), Popular Systems(Vol 3), Popular Applications(Vol 5), Popular Languages(Vol 7), and then Hassles in BASIC(Vol 2), Hassles in Systems(Vol 4), Hassles in Applications(Vol 6) and Hassles in Languages(Vol 8). -- /--------------------------------------------------\ | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ rexstout(a)uswest.net | | list admin for orham and ham-mac at www.qth.net | | KD7BCY pdxham at www.egroups.com | \--------------------------------------------------/

26 years

3
2
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Fw: HP-85 Computer

by mrdos＠swbell.net

Can anyone help this guy out? -----Original Message----- From: David M. Curtis <kc8tk(a)ee.net> To: Owen Robertson <mrdos(a)swbell.net> Date: Monday, June 19, 2000 10:53 AM Subject: Re: HP-85 Computer Hello Owen: Thanks for replying to my e-mail. I have an HP85, but no manuals. I am looking for the command for the computer to format a tape. I knew it 15 years ago. The tape drives in the 85s are notorious for going bad. The rubber tire on the tape drive had rotted away and this makes the tape run too slowly. I was going to format a new tape to see if that would help me to get it running. Thanks, David Curtis KC8TK ----- Original Message ----- From: Owen Robertson To: David M. Curtis Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 1:17 AM Subject: Re: HP-85 Computer It didn't come with the manual for the computer itself, but it came with the manuals for the following ROMS: Matrix Printer/Plotter Input/Output Mass Storage Advanced Programming I would be glad to photo copy any information that you need as soon as I get the computer. What information do you need?

26 years

1
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PDP-11 Boards Need Identification / Available for Trades

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

About twelve years ago, I was digging through a dumpster in the office park where I worked at the time, and found a quantity of what I only just recently identified to be PDP-11 UniBus boards. Now that I know I have no need for them, I think they'll be going. While I'd prefer to trade them, in case I have to sell them on E-Bay, I'd like to know what it is I'm selling. Each card has what appears to be a model number, and I list those numbers below. Two things I'd take in trade: A Prime coffee mug, or almost anything of a Pr1mary nature; A keyboard encoding ROM for a SOL-20 keyboard. Maybe you'll have something really nifty I'd like, so if you want to trade but don't have the above items, drop me a line, make me an offer! Here are the board numbers: M5904 quantity three G7273 quantity three M7296 quantity one M7297 quantity one M7556 quantity one M9047 quqntity one M9300 quantity one M9202 quantity one thanks in advance, doug quebbeman

26 years

1
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vintage computer books for sale

by jdarren＠ala.net

Certainly! It is now reserved in your name. Thanks for your interest. jdarren -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Monday, June 19, 2000 4:16 PM Subject: Re: vintage computer books for sale >> DEC PDP-11 TMB11/TU10W DECmagtape System Maintenance Manual, 1979 >> (reproduction) > >RCS/RI might be interested in this manual - can you hold it while I ask >the other board members? > >William Donzelli >aw288(a)osfn.org

26 years

1
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vintage computer books for sale

by jdarren＠ala.net

$10 each plus book rate shipping. DEC LA36/LA35 DECwriter II Maintenance Manual, 1977 DEC LA36/LA35 DECwriter II User's Manual, 1977 DEC PDP-11 BA11-K 10.5 Inch Mounting Box Technical Manual, 1978 DEC PDP-11 DL-11 Asynchronous Line Interface Manual, 1975 (reproduction) DEC PDP-11 DL11-W Serial Line Unit/Real-Time Clock Option Maintenance Manual, 1977 DEC PDP-11 DR11-C General Device Interface Manual, 1974 DEC PDP-11 TMB11/TU10W DECmagtape System Maintenance Manual, 1979 (reproduction) DEC RK05/RK05J Disk Drive Preventive Maintenance Manual, 1976 DEC RK05/RK05J/RK05F Disk Driving Maintenance Manual, 1976 DEC RK05J Illustrated Parts Breakdown, 1977 (reproduction) DEC RK11-D and RK11-E Moving Head Disk Drive Controller Manual, 1975 (reproduction) PDP-11/45 16-Bit Computer Illustrated Parts Breakdown, 1974 (reproduction) Honeywell Series 200 214-1/214-2 Card Reader/Punch Theory of Operation Manual, 1968 Teletype Model 35 ASR Technical Manual, 1971

26 years

2
1
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Russian Space Shuttle (was RE: Programming on Paper)

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman(a)theestopinalgroup.com> wrote: > Ok, here's a quote from one of my favorite computer scientists > (Tom VanVleck... > > The quote is from an article of his on the Multicians web site: > > http://www.multicians.org/thvv/evolution.html > > I left my last job as a full-time programmer in 1990. A young > Russian (who had written some of the software tools used in > generating the control programming for Snowflake, the never-used > Soviet space shuttle) I've seen the Buran (sitting in Gorky Park at the moment). I've never heard it called "Snowflake". Is this the same bird? The Buran flew once, unmanned, and is now a tourist attraction, rotting away in the Russian weather. I have some pictures I can scan if anyone cares. :-P -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/

26 years

2
1
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Russian Space Shuttle (was RE: Programming on Paper)

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> --- Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman(a)theestopinalgroup.com> wrote: > > Ok, here's a quote from one of my favorite computer scientists > > (Tom VanVleck... > > > > The quote is from an article of his on the Multicians web site: > > > > http://www.multicians.org/thvv/evolution.html > > > > I left my last job as a full-time programmer in 1990. A young > > Russian (who had written some of the software tools used in > > generating the control programming for Snowflake, the never-used > > Soviet space shuttle) > > I've seen the Buran (sitting in Gorky Park at the moment). I've never > heard it called "Snowflake". Is this the same bird? The Buran flew > once, unmanned, and is now a tourist attraction, rotting away in the > Russian weather. I have some pictures I can scan if anyone cares. Now that you've said it, I do recall Dmitri called it the "Buran"; it was some other reference lost to memory that called it the "Snowflake"... I always ASS-U-MEd Buran == Snowflake... -dq

26 years

3
2
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HP-1000E PSU

by fmc＠reanimators.org

ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Looks like the installer is expected to adjust the power supply with it > > > installed in the computer. Test points are on the crossover assembly > > HP were fond of suggesting that you do this :-(, even on machines where Yes, this was not my idea. I spent some time staring at the manual convincing myself that there were no directions for testing the power supply with a less expensive load. I suspect HP's thought was that they would probably have the service contract, and if the power supply was going to fail in a way that fried other stuff then it would have already fried the other stuff by the time the service call was placed, and the CE would have those boards in his kit too. > Incidentally, am I the only person who finds the faultfinding flowcharts > (like the ones that HP published in a lot of their service manuals) to be > fairly useless? You know the ones that say > 'Is there a clock at pin 3 of U5 > Yes : Is there a high level at .... > No : Replace U5, X1, C1, C2 in order.' It looks vaguely useful for people like me: a programmer with soldering iron type who appears to have a read-only mind w/r/t the more interesting bits of electronics. At least it would get me to a board that I could then try to trace out and ask questions about. That's why I pointed rdd through the first couple of bits -- they will tell whether the power supply is alive at all and whether the fundamental adjustment has any effect. Unfortunately I don't think I have schematics for 1000s or 21MXs. Well, not complete ones. Tonight I picked up the 21MX E-series Installation and Service Manual instead of the 1000 E-series one. Guess what, it's got appendices, including Appendix B with schematics for the operator panel, 16K memory module, 8K memory module, and 4K memory module. Not the power supply though. Hmm, on the other hand I'm not sure it would matter, it looks like the power supply is different in the 21MX -- instead of board with daughterboards, it's got an upper and a lower board. Guess the difference is deeper than the front panel silk-screening. -Frank McConnell

26 years

2
1
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Review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc.

by vcf＠siconic.com

I've posted a review of Apple Confidential: The Real Story of Apple Computer, Inc., to the VCF website. http://www.vintage.org/cgi-bin/content.pl?id=003 It's a good book and I highly recommend it, especially if you're an Apple fan. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details!

26 years

6
7
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More Stuff

by foo＠siconic.com

More from the same issue of Computers & Electronics (Nov/82). Has anyone ever heard of this machine? Introducing a Brand New Microcomputer: Venture VENTURE is a single board computer that is an adventure for the hobbyist. It is a learning training computer as well as just plain fun for anyone who wants to get into a state-of-the-art computer at reasonable cost. VENTURE comes in kit form or fully assembled and tested. You can get it in its minimum configuration for as little as $195.00 or take it all the way to floppy disks and voice. It can be expanded as a kit or fully assembled, at your own pace and choice. VENTURE is a 16" by 20" main board with separate ASCII and HEX keyboards. It runs fast, almost 4 MHz and has the capability of putting 1.5 megabytes of RAM and ROM on the board along with a variety of inexpensive options. On Board Options: 16 channel A to D; 5 slot 60 pin bus, 2 serial ports, parallel ports; 4 video options incl. color, 52K RAM, Votrax voice synthesizer, sound generator, EPROM; Full Basic, disassembler, editor, assembler; metal cabinet, additional power supply, ASCII keyboard, real time clock calendar. Expansion Options: Floppy Disc, EPROM Programmer, light pen, universal user programmable music, sound board, high resolution color/grayscale pixel mapped video board, General Purpose Instrument Bus, 8088 co-processor board. Minimum VENTURE System: $195.00 Kit includes CPU and control with 4K of RAM, 1K of scratchpad, 2K monitor, 1861 video graphics, cassette interface and separate HEX keyboard with LED displays for address and output. Power supply is included along with 2 game cassettes, The main board is 16" x 20" and includes space for all of the previously dicussed on-board options. Full on-board expansion can be completed for under $1000.00. I want one! The ad is from Quest Electronics in Santa Clara, CA. They also sold kits for the RCA Cosmac 1802 Super Elf, the Rockwell AIM 65, as well as a modem kit, a Z80 Microcomputer kit, and various ICs and such. The ads in the back (the low budget ones) have an even neater array of single board computers being sold by what would seem to be hobbyists trying to sell their creations in the commercial arena. There's an ad for a 68000-based singleboard, a port expander module for the HP-41, plus various add-ons for various computers of the day (Sinclair, Atari, TRS-80, etc). Finally, there's a small add for a IBM Selectric-to-computer adaptor to use the typewriter as a printer. Anyone ever hear of Synchro-Sette magazine (for the Sinclair ZX-81, TS-1000)? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details!

26 years

2
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Mark your calendars for VCF 4.0: September 30 - October 1

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Bob Brown <bbrown(a)harper.cc.il.us> wrote: > Will this ever be held in a more easterly location (say the midwest)? > > -Bob Being in Ohio, I'd second that. I could even help host one, if it's close enough to travel to (the midwest being such a vague and nebulous space). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/

26 years

1
0
0 0

Programming on Paper (was Re: Apple III motherboard)

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> > > From: Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman(a)theestopinalgroup.com> > > > Since I compose > > > to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some > > > programmers compose directly into thr machine), > > You do that too? I always got more code written in a shorter period > of time that way. When modifying code, paper is all the more useful, > particularly wide greenbar with the code to be modified or added to > printed out on it. My former employer had no printer with greenbar, > which really came as a shock to me, as every place else I'd ever > worked had at least one high-speed line printer. It's too annoying to > make changes to long programs on the screen; much easier to leaf > through pages of code and pencil in changes, draw lines here and > there, circle things, etc. than to go from screen to screen with an > editor, as that can become confusing with large programs. No wonder > modern code has become so bloated and full of bugs; the programmers > have less of an idea what they're working on. I'm bidding on a DECwriter III so that I can have something I can load greenbar into on the Prime; I also bought a wide-carriage Imagewriter for the same reason. That gives me a backup, I guess. Greenbar's going for about $30 per box these days. > Even stranger was the fact that most of the people I worked with, who > were programmers, had no idea what greenbar was, even when it was > described to them! Yeah, the phrase "line printer" will probably elicit as much of a furrowed brow from these newbies as would "unit record". > Hopefully line printers and wide dot-matrix printers aren't on their > way to becoming obsolete. Well, both printers alluded to above were found on E-Bay, so they must be rare.... :-) -dq

26 years

1
0
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OT: 911 (was Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay)

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On June 19, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > When I say "changed very little" I meant compared to certain other > > models of car we see on the roads these days. Certainly there are > > dozens to hundreds of changes every year or couple of years...I have > > an '83 and a '95, and they're very different cars. But, to the > > non-911-geek, to see them sitting next to each other in a parking > > lot, they're damn near identical. > > Without a doubt. That the stylistic lines are essentially the same > as they were in 1966 is nothing short of amazing. I suppose some > Mercedes come close to the same phenomina, but I can't think of > a single care from a US, Italian, French, British or Japanese > manufacturer that's been that timeless. Well, okay, the 2CV, but > I did say *car*... :-) Yup...look at the Firebird or the Camaro. How many completly different body styles from the late 60's til now? Five? Six? And we don't even want to talk about what happened to the Chevelle and the Nova. The only similarities between the old & new of those models are in the names. -Dave McGuire

26 years

1
0
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Programming on Paper

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On June 17, Mike Ford wrote: > >Having a machine to interact with allows you to test your code on the spot > >and if you are writing in an interpreted language the error-checking the > >interpreter provides is a godsend for the coder. Why anyone would code > >without the interaction of the target machine is beyond me. > > I write perfect code, like Mozart it flows out in its final form to the > paper, and then to the system. Time for the hip waders, folks...it's getting deep in here. ;) -Dave McGuire

26 years

2
1
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Programming on Paper

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> In the past I have tried to write code to paper and failed to do much with > it. Outlines are about as far as I can go. I did this because I wanted to > continue work or pass the time when I didn't have a machine in front of me > (in high-school or waiting in the Doctor's office). I guess it's what you become used to. Timesharing used to cost beaucoups bucks, so you worked offline as much as possible. That economic reality did engender a generation of higher-quality software than we've seen since, though... I blame a lot of the low-quality of current software on the program-by-the-seat-of- your-pants method. -dq

26 years

1
0
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A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On June 16, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > Not to mention, only so many people who would know what to *do* with > an old Commodore, VAX, TI 99, etc. As far as the rest of the world is > concerned, it's "trash".... Only our broken, brain-damaged society can take a thing that does it's job just as well as when it was new, and call it "trash" simply because something newer (not necessarily "better") has been announced by the vendors. Fascinating...and disturbing. My primary car is a '95. It continued to run just fine when the '96 came out. There's a clue in there somewhere. > Well, not nearly as much as they used to, but one can always hold out > hope. Know of any new people entering this hobby? Not just squirrelling > away stuff, or churning it on the auction sites, but actually buying old > computers, plugging them in, and actually working/playing with them? I've turned a few younger people on to it...they seem to get a kick out of computers whose internals they can really understand. One can find databooks for 7400-series TTL logic anywhere, and figure out exactly how a pdp8/e works. Pop open a current PeeCee and what do you find? Five or six two-zillion-pin chips with names like "Win-<whatever>" on them that you'll never find so much as a pinout for in any printed or .pdf literature. -Dave McGuire

26 years

11
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MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> > > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? > > Aargh! If we knew about that do you think we'd be living alone with > 20 old computers and nothing else? :-) > > Some times I think we're the male, technological version of the "Cat > Lady"....:-) I recently broke up with my girlfriend, and her possesion of seven cats in a tiny apartment was one of the reasons... ...now, realizing I've got _way_ more than seven computers makes me question my own sanity. oh well. -dq

26 years

1
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Programming on Paper (was Re: Apple III motherboard)

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

Cool... that way, you can make mistakes faster! Here's a pointer to a short story on a programmer whom I've never met, but whom I am certain is a soul brother... http://www.multicians.org/thvv/andre.html > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul R. Santa-Maria [mailto:paulrsm@ameritech.net] > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 5:22 PM > To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org > Subject: Programming on Paper (was Re: Apple III motherboard) > > > ---------- > > From: Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman(a)theestopinalgroup.com> > > To: 'classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org' > > Subject: RE: Apple III motherboard > > Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 01:39 PM > > > > Since I compose > > to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some > > programmers compose directly into thr machine), > > Because I can type much faster than I can write. > > Paul R. Santa-Maria > Ann Arbor, Michigan USA > paulrsm(a)ameritech.net >

26 years

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MELLOW OUT! Re: A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> ...and way too much time on their hands with few (if any) outlets for > their frustrations. > > Does anyone around here know what SEX is? Sure... Sign EXtension.... in x86-speak, it's cbw ; sign-extend byte to word or cwd ; sign-extend word to doubleword How does that help with frustration? ;-) -dq

26 years

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Old laptops as cheap terminals (was Re: Old Macs = cheap terminals)

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> wrote: > Another good solution for the terminally challenged is > *old* laptops, also a good solution when space is a big problem. The only > real use I keep my ancient Twinhead 386sx laptop around for is to use as a > terminal when nothing else is handy... I bought an ancient Zenith XT laptop (dual 720K floppies) for $10 at a local box shop explicity for a terminal. I have a DOS 3.3 boot disk in it with Kermit, and away I go. If I could lay my hands on a cheap Xircom PE3 (no flames, please), I'd use the laptop as an IP "terminal", too (for the Kermit-ly challenged, modern versions contain an IP stack; just add packet driver; that's how my Commodore Colt is on my network). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com

26 years

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New find: HP 1000 E series

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Carlos Murillo-Sanchez <cem14(a)cornell.edu> wrote: > Thanks a lot for all this! The cable halves that I have > are marked either "12966-60015 ASYNC DATA STRAPPED FOR 9600 BAUD" > or "12966-60008 ASYNC DATA". Fortunately, the numbering in the > back of the card edge connector corresponds to the 1-24 (top, left > to right) and A-Z,AA-BB (bottom, left to right) numbering. The 60015 > option has quite a few more cross-connects than the 60004 option. This time around I'm looking at a newer (April 1984) revision of the same manual and it has three (!) descriptions of the -60015 cable, two for HP 2621B terminals, and one for HP 264X terminals. Cross-connects inside the card-edge hood appear the same for all descriptions of this cable: (F, X, Y, AA) (H, K) (N, 8, 12, 13, 14, 15) (these strap it for 9600 baud) (W, 5) (4, 21) (11, 22) And for the far end of the cable, the 2621B flavors looks like they could be going to a DB25: A -> 7 (Signal Ground) D -> 3 (Transmit Data) E -> 5, 6 (Request to Send) F -> 8 (Data Terminal Ready) S -> 2 (Received Data) X -> 4 (Clear to Send) -60008 looks like it's supposed to be for a 264X terminal (to the card-edge connector on the datacomm board) and has slightly different cross-connects: (A, 1, 12, 13, 14, 15) (F, X, Y, AA) (H, K) (N, 8) (W, 5) (4, 21) (11, 22) As far as I can tell, this is strapped for external clocking from the terminal. I guess it's time for that table about how to strap for a baud rate: Baud Rate Bit Yield Pin 8 to pins: Pin 1, A, 24, BB to pins: Ext (16X) 0000 N 12, 13, 14, 15 50 0001 14, N 12, 13, 15 75 0010 13, N 12, 14, 15 110 0011 13, 14, N 12, 15 134.5 0100 12, N 13, 14, 15 150 0101 12, 14, N 13, 15 300 0110 12, 13, N 14, 15 600 0111 12, 13, 14, N 15 900 1000 15, N 12, 13, 14 1200 1001 14, 15, N 12, 13 1800 1010 13, 15, N 12, 14 2400 1011 13, 14, 15, N 12 3600 1100 12, 15, N 13, 14 4800 1101 12, 14, 15, N 13 7200 1110 12, 13, 15, N 14 9600 1111 12, 13, 14, 15, N -- > Looks like the labeling of TD and RD signals in your docs > indicate that the card thinks of itself as DTE, and the cable > that you describe is actually a null modem-like cable w/o > handshake. All this should be enough for me to build a simple > cable and test this over the weekend. That would be about right, I think. The HP terminals that I'm familiar with generally had cables whose far ends were a DB25 plug that wanted to plug into a DCE-flavored connector. Good luck! -Frank McConnell

26 years

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Blah this is no longer about Tek anything so die subject line die

by xds_sigma7＠hotmail.com

a 20 year old MicroVAX II?... That's pretty amazing, since the MicroVAX II is 1986ish or so... MicroVAX I isn't even 20 years old yet, getting close, but not there. Just my two cents worth of picking nits. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

26 years

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A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

Good morning, all... The subject line above might be a bit misleading. In the short time I've been subscribed to the list, I've seen a lot of negative criticism of E-Bay, or rather, of trying to buy things found on E-Bay. The criticisms all seem to concern how much an item on E-Bay ends up costing. What I guess I haven't seen said here is an acknowledgement that the high prices are a result of parties bidding against each other. I realize that in some cases, some shill bidding may be going on, but most of the time, I think I'm just seeing prices go high because people really want an item. Now, as to why an original IMSAI will go for $1200 when you can take about $800 and buy a brand new one with a Z-80-descended processor and a meg of bank-switched RAM, is beyond me. OTOH, I see SOLs going for for high prices, and they don't make those anymore. But I've been able to find great buys on items that aren't quite so popular, like TI Silent700 terminals, older wide-carriage printers, and so on. Having said that, one item I'd been trying to buy for a while is a Wyse 50 terminal, with a preferences for an amber screen. The ambers seem to be more rare, and command a higher price on E-Bay. Everytime one is for sale, someone goes over my max price, and I don't get a terminal. So, I decided to surf the web more broadly one day (and not specifically looking at other auction sites), when lo and behold, I find a guy up in Michigan who has an amber Wyse 50 for sale; he threw in a modem and a serial cable and shipped it to me for a mere $25.00. It's a clean unit with no visible screen burn. The F13 keycap comes off easily; other than that, it's a fine example of what became my favorite computer terminal. In closing, I'd say no one should limit themselves to searching only at *any* auction site, but I wouldn't avoid E-Bay just because prices sometimes range too high. regards, -doug quebbeman

26 years

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Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard)

by mgregory＠vantageresearch.com

-----Original Message----- From: John Wilson <wilson(a)dbit.dbit.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 8:14 PM Subject: Re: Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard) > >Was the /// the machine whose user manual suggested that you should drop the >entire computer on a desk from a height of several inches before powering it >on the first time, to give all the internal connectors a chance to chew >through the oxide? Wild... > Given the weight of a ///, you might fix the computer, but you'll damage the desk! It wasn't just the first time, IIRC. The ///s also had notoriously bad sockets, and lousy cooling, so the chips had a tendency to wiggle out over time. So you might have had to repeat the Apple drop every six months or so. Any other examples of semi-official fixes like this one? The only other one that comes to mind is the infamous "Atari ST twist", where you grasped both sides of the case firmly, and twisted the ends in opposite directions. The flexing of the motherboard supposedly reseated a chip that frequently came loose, without, of course, requiring you to open the case, and thereby void your warranty. Madness! Mark.

26 years

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KXT11-AB, T11

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>anybody out here has the KXT11-AB Manual ? > >Any documentation about the T11 chip ? I've got the KXT11-CA book on microfiche. Is that close enough? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years

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Apple III (was: Apple III motherboard)

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 6/17/00 9:25:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eric(a)brouhaha.com writes: > > Hmm, that actually sounds a bit familiar. I kind of think I vaguely > remember > > reading magazine articles in the early 80s about the /// being > discontinued > > and then re-introduced in "new & improved" form. But I wouldn't know... > > The Apple ///+. Very short product life. > > > Was the /// the machine whose user manual suggested that you should drop > the > > entire computer on a desk from a height of several inches before powering > it > > on the first time, to give all the internal connectors a chance to chew > > through the oxide? Wild... > > Not in the user manual, but some people did it. The problem was that Apple > used bargain-basement DIP sockets on the early machines. In shipping the > chips would work loose. Back then there shouldn't yet have been too much > trouble with oxidation, but there certainly is now. The "correct" fix is > obviously to open it up and reseat the ICs. not only that, but the memory board is mounted above the main board on metal standoffs with no other support. (at least on the 256k /// i had) Over the years, that board had become permanetly warped due to sagging in the middle and the attachment screws being overtorqued. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm

26 years

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Apple III motherboard

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> Speaking of searches, I have been searching and searching > for an Apple III motherboard. Mein ist kaput, I am afraid. > Anyone have a spare they would like to part with? Louis- Not meaning to be rude, but even when they work, an Apple /// is kaput. Are you aware of how buggy those things were? Did you ever do any extensive programming for one? Again, sorry, I truly mean no offense, but I grew to loathe Apple for making this machine, and it's a wonder that I was able to overcome that loathing and buy a Mac. -doug quebbeman

26 years

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E-mail style (was Re: Tek 4014/5 emulation)

by fmc＠reanimators.org

ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Seriously, unless there are very good reasons not to, people who send me > HTML mail get ignored (especially if they're asking me for help). And > this will continue. Tony's getting close to the point here: when you post to a mailing list or a newsgroup, you're writing for an audience. If you want your message to be read, you should make it easy for that audience to read the message. Else you run the risk that your audience will not bother, there being 72 other unread messages in the classiccmp in-box this morning. If what you're going on about isn't obvious to me somewhere in the first screenful or two, I'm going to hit the 'n' key and move along. Putting something relevant in the Subject: header can help me make a more informed decision. So can trimming quoted text to just the relevant portions: if I see a couple or three screenfuls of quoting, or can't tell whether I'm seeing quoted or original text, I begin to wonder whether it's worth looking further for something new. Same if I can't find the text for all the markup tags. -Frank McConnell

26 years

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VAXStation VLC's still available

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

CC to CLASSICCMP and port-VAX... Hi, folks, As of last weekend, when I was at RE-PC, I noticed that the VAXStation VLC pile still seemed to be the same height. My guess is that the initial asking price was high enough to scare people off. Well, let me put it this way. Mark (one of RE-PC's owners) probably needs the floor space a lot more than the VAXen, so make an offer on a VLC while they're still there! I suggest starting at $20-$25 plus shipping. Since the VLC pile hadn't moved, I'm willing to bet that the 4000/90 is still at the bottom of it. If you want to get in on this, give Mark Dabek a call (206-575-8737), tell him I referred you, and go from there. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

26 years

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Haggle stuff

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

Oh, BTW, I almost forgot... I have a couple of books up on Haggle under 'Antique Computers.' One of them is an HP binder with a few CE manuals in it that cover, among other things, the 7000-series disk drives, and the other is a DEC book: "Programming in VAX-11 C". The H19 terminal is still there, no bids yet, and there's also a head-mounted display for PCs made by Reflection Technology (it's dated from around 1989, so it meets the ten-year rule). Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

26 years

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Stuff

by netsurfer_x1＠hotmail.com

>Here's something for the Commodore fans (same page). >I've never heard of >this one before: > >CBM 16-bitter. The BX256 is a multiprocessor system >using a 6509 and 8088 >with an optional Z80, 256K of >internal RAM expandable to 640K externally, >40K of ROM, >and interfaces for IEEE-488, RS232, CBM cassette, 8-bit >user >port, and a carthridge slot. The green phosphor >video monitor has >80-columns of 25 lines and has >tilt/swivel controls. The detachable >94-key keyboard >includes a separate numeric keypad featuring a >double->zero key, clear entry key, and a double-size enter key >for ease of >use. The keyboard also has 10 user->definable keys. A built-in 6581 CPU >allows a full 3->voice, 9-octave music synthesizer having an output for >an >external audio system. A dual disk drive is built in >as is a realtime >clock. Software includes BASIC 4.0, >with options of CP/M, CP/M-86, and >UCSD Pascal. The >BX256 micro processor system supportsd all CBM > >peripherals. >Planned price is $2995. Address: Commodore Business >Machines Inc., The >Meadows, 487 Devon Park Drive, Wayne, >PA 19087. I hate to bust your bubble, but this machine was never released. The machine has a CBM tape port, but the ROM has no driving code for it. Commodore's 6509-based machines were never popular to begin with & cost way to much to manufacture, also, C= executives noticed how well the '64 was selling, and, well, you can figure out what happened after that (wither 6509). ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

26 years

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CDC 9" PA5N1F15 drive head locking. How?

by rdd＠smart.net

Greetings, Can somene kindly tell me how to lock/unlock the heads on a CDC model PA5N1F15 9" hard drive? I don't see anything that looks like a way to look/unlock the drive when I examine it; do the heads lock/unlock automagically? BTW, according to the label, this is an FSD drive - is this the type of interface, or do I actually have an SMD drive? Wow, this is one heavy, and beautiful drive... looks like a cast-iron housing too! Since the date on the label is 1985 (or 86? I don't recall at the moment), and the HDA media defect information sheet is dated 1998, it looks like I've may have a relatively new drive assembly! :-) -- R. D. Davis rdd(a)perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900

26 years

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Computing History CD-ROM

by pat＠transarc.ibm.com

Anyone know anything about the CD referred to at this link: http://members.aol.com/HistoryCD/HOC.html Is this worth having? --Pat.

26 years

2
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Programming on Paper (was Re: Apple III motherboard)

by paulrsm＠ameritech.net

---------- > From: Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman(a)theestopinalgroup.com> > To: 'classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: Apple III motherboard > Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 01:39 PM > > Since I compose > to paper (and still do and cannot understand why some > programmers compose directly into thr machine), Because I can type much faster than I can write. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm(a)ameritech.net

26 years

4
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X1542 cable?

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

Anyone know where to find info on building a X1542 cable for a C64 floppy drive, and getting the software? Someone on another list I'm on is looking for the info. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

26 years

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Visual 1050 computer

by Innfogra＠aol.com

It has a built in 5 meg hard drive interface so it should just need cabling to a hard drive. It also uses the 6502 as a video controller to offload the video from the Z80A. The Keyboard is a 93 key keyboard with 17 function keys. If you go back you might look around for it. It has the Visual 1050 Logo on it. There was a VT100 emulator program supplied. Wordstar 3.3 was adapted for it's special keyboard & it included Multiplan and GSS-Graph. New cost was $2695 with SW, in 1984. It is too bad many thrifts separate all of the component parts of the systems. Paxton

26 years

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Synchro-Sette magazine

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 06/16/2000 8:45:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, foo(a)siconic.com writes: > Anyone ever hear of Synchro-Sette magazine (for the Sinclair ZX-81, > TS-1000)? Yes. They were based in Addison, Illinois, and actually had an 800 number. The magazine was $39.50 for twelve issues, and every other issue included a tape cassette with at least six programs on it. Unfortunately the programs and articles were all pretty much crap and the company folded. Glen 0/0

26 years

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Krakit

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 06/16/2000 9:53:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, foo(a)siconic.com writes: > This is too cool. Advertised in the Dec/82 issue of Computers & > Electronics, there's an ad on page 67 for a game for the TS-1000/ZX-81 > called Krakit. It's a puzzle type adventure game. What makes it special > is that the publisher put up a $20,000 prize for the first person who > could crack it. > > "KRAKIT consists of 12 clues on a ready-to-run ZX81 or TS1000 cassette > tape (16k RAM). The answer to each clue is the name of a country, or a > city or town, and a number. If you are the first qualified entrant to > solve all 12 clues and declared the winner, you receive two tickets to the > city of the secret KRAKIT vault location. When you arrive at that > location, a check for a minimum amount of $20,000.00 (U.S.) will be > presented to you. The amount of the prize money is augmented weekly." > > Has anyone ever heard of this? Did anyone ever crack it? Sellam, if you ever read any of the Timex Sinclair related mags you would be blown away. Not too long ago on this ng the TS1000/ZX81 was voted "most limited" small computer. Bull. Thousands of third-party developers of hardware and software produced every imaginable type of product for this machine. As regards Krakit, to my knowledge no one ever cracked it. I'll put out some feelers. > This game was published by International Publishing & Software Inc. It > seems like an awful lot of money for a relatively unknown outfit to be > offering. I wonder if it wasn't all just a sham, i.e. one of the clues > was so hard as to be impossible to solve :) I don't think it was a sham, it just didn't go over very well. > If anyone has this game I'd like to have a copy of it. Do you have a machine to run it on? Glen 0/0

26 years

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Miniscribe 6085?

by hofmanwb＠worldonline.nl

Sounds like it could be reformatted and used as an RD53 for use in a PDP-11 or microVax. Wim ---------- > >> 5.25" size, and note looking very easy to remove. Anybody interested? Might > >> even be a couple of them. > > > >I find no listing for a Miniscribe 6086. However, there were a 6085 and > >a 6985E which were 71mb and ST506 MFM and ESDI RLL respectively. > > Most likely it is the 6085. Sounds like it isn't worth removing though. > >

26 years

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A Great Find & A Defense of E-Bay

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On June 16, Don Maslin wrote: > > > My primary car is a '95. It continued to run just fine when the '96 > > > came out. There's a clue in there somewhere. > > > > Big difference, though. A car is a car is a car. As long as it keeps > > I'm sure that there are a number of Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Lotus > owners out there who would think that you are daft! Well, since you mentioned it, the '95 car I mentioned above is a Porsche 911...a car that has changed very little over the years since its introduction. Any parallels of that in our industry? Aside from people, that is... -Dave McGuire

26 years

3
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Tek 4014/5 emulation

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On June 16, William Donzelli wrote: > > Non-HTML email is not exclusive to those of us who are into classic > > computing. Non-HTML email isn't a "dying, quaint old way of doing > > things" like some of the sold-on-Microsoft people seem to think. > > Well...yes it is. I would venture to say that these days, more use it > than not. I'm not sure I'd agree...but then I work in a company full of Unix boxes and live in a neighborhood full of Unix people. But that's the reality I see when I look out the window. Microsoft isn't universally run everywhere. Sure, every suit has a Windows box on his or her desk...but just as there's more to the human race than suits, there's more to the world of computing than Windows. -Dave McGuire

26 years

3
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Tek 4014/5 emulation

by ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu

Despite the fact that every term program under the sun seems to support Tek 4014/5, I cannot find a description of the control sequences anywhere (just a reference to the termcap entry, but I want the *graphics* control sequences, not the terminal ones). Does anyone know where I might find a listing of them? Until then, I'll use GNUplot ;-P -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)ptloma.edu -- Eat healthy, stay fit, DIE ANYWAY! -----------------------------------------

26 years

6
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Tek 4014/5 emulation

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 14, 17:58, Mark Champion wrote: > Regarding the line length, I presume most users use "word-wrap" for their email readers. This allows the reader to format the screen as desired (similar to the way web browsers handle text). I believe all HTML compatible email programs have this capability. No they don't; and in any case many list members don't use "HTML compatible" or even MIME-aware readers. HTML has no place in email. Email does not revolve around M$ Outlook :-) As you see from the above, you lose the quoting when most software does the wrapping after the event. It's an accepted convention to keep lines short -- and I seem to remember we had this discussion a few months ago? > The big advantage of handling email this way is that when the line lengths increase due to the > or > > or > > > which stack-up with each reply, the email remains completely readable and well formatted. (I'm sure everyone has received the email which is littered with tons of > > > > > > > > > and barely intelligible.) Well, I find the nesting usually makes it easier to retain attribution -- and I've never seen any software which can handle post-wrapping and keep the correct indentations. Particularly since not everyone uses the same quoting characters (I use "> " but others may use "<" or ":" with or without a following space). > If this is a general problem for other readers, let me know and I will add the line breaks for any additional posts to this group. Yes please. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years

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