From: Glen Goodwin <acme_ent(a)bellsouth.net>
>> RLL though RLL may/may_not be reliable with that drive. I have used
>ST225s
>> with RLL controllers to get ~30mb from them (st225 is 20mb MFM).
>
>What's your success rate with this? I tried it a couple of times years ago
>and encountered some very subtle but nasty data corruption.
I used it with one PC based system with excellent results. However, up
front
I assumed it may be twitchy so I used the best ST225 (minimum surface
defects) I had , shortest cables usable, and didn't format it until it was
warmed up to operating temp and the controller was a WD1005 (memory
test here). I'd never do it with an ST251 as they were flaky in my book
even for MFM. I found the best candidate for this was Quantum D540s
a 30mb MFM drive.
Allison
From: Carlos Murillo <carlos_murillo(a)epm.net.co>
>I went from HP3000 BASIC to UCSD Pascal. I liked it. In retrospect,
>the things that suck about Pascal are the argument passing mechanism
>and strings. C is better essentially because it lets you manage
>memory directly, without predefined string sizes. And it lets you
>handle the guts.
When I dont want to see the underlying machine Pascal is very nice
and has proven very portable. When I need to get at the underlying
machine and don't wish to use assembler then C wins usually at the
expense of some portability.
>(portable) code, and Matlab and FORTRAN rule in that realm. Yes, FORTRAN.
:-)
Fortran is old but well proven.
Allison
> >> From: Allison [mailto:ajp166@bellatlantic.net]
> >> I disagree. The UCSD version was an excellent teaching tool but
> >> slower than sludge due to the P-code thing. Later implementations
> >> namely JRT and Borland were very useful tools.
> >
> >I'm also of that opinion. I like Pascal, and Modula, and Oberon...
> >Chris
>
> I went from HP3000 BASIC to UCSD Pascal. I liked it. In retrospect,
> the things that suck about Pascal are the argument passing mechanism
> and strings. C is better essentially because it lets you manage
> memory directly, without predefined string sizes. And it lets you
> handle the guts.
My only problem with Pascal argument passing was the lack of
support for missing arcguments (or short lists as some call them).
Modula-2 corrected that omission.
> But I am not a C programmer in general (except when programming
> microcontrollers in RT applications); I write mostly scientific numerical
> (portable) code, and Matlab and FORTRAN rule in that realm. Yes, FORTRAN. :-)
> My stuff runs under Solaris, AIX, Linux, HPUX, and Win32, using gcc/g77,
> HP f77, Sun fortran, xlf.
Been working on a utility in F77 myself, just recently...
-dq
> [1] RedHat, and I believe SuSE, offer true walkaway install scripts.
> From a RH box, you can use a GUI point&click interface to set up a boot
> floppy that will install exactly what you want, How you want it. Insert
> floppy, turn on power, go away for ~25 minutes, come back, remove
> floppy, reboot. Gorgeous.
Slackware 7.0, once you finish answering the up-front
questions, runs by itself, although you can also choose
a "hand-holding" mode...
-dq
Sorry to dilute the Unix/Windows/Mac flamewar with a
vaguely on-topic posting, but does anyone have, or
know of a site where I can get images of the SunOS4.0.2
install floppies (NOT tape) for the Sun 386i? I've got
the original disks but they were used to hold "something
else" long ago - now I'd like to restore them to their
former glory :-)
There used to be a set of images on an FTP site in one
of the London universities, but they've gone :(
Any pointers? Haven't found anything by googling, and
I've been looking for a week or so now. This is my last
resort, since I'm fully expecting to be flamed to a crisp
for showing interest in a Unix variant :-)
Cheers
Al.
Bob Shannon wrote:
> Nothin' says Vintage Computer better than a mini with the switch
> register blinking and 10 inch reels of tape jumping back and forth.
>
> Not even an Altair or Imsai can touch that. (for those of
> you who lack room for CPU's that don't fit on a chip)
If I could stand and watch a 10-reel merge-sort again,
I would just cry.
> Now cold-booting from 9-track mag tape, thats pure Vintage Computing
> (without the nasty cuts of paper tape)!
Now, that one, I did just the other day!
-dq
Ben Franchuk wrote:
> In my view that what I don't like about linux/unix -- the design
> of the architecture is still based on very primitive user I/O devices
> and a mode of computing that is not realistic today.
It's quite realistic if you depend on programs being able to talk to each
other, and being able to operate them in a simplistic manner when necessary.
For end users, it might be inconvenient (which is why we now have multiple
abstractions in the form of desktop environments, GUI programs, and
what-have-you), but the mere existence of the capability for a simplistic
interface does not force the user to go through that interface.
e.g., you can use vi or pico if it suits you, and it's definitely easier
for a script to use something like 'ed', but as a user, you're obviously
not forced into only using those programs, as there are programs with arguably
much more intuitive interfaces to do the same tasks.
--
Ryan Underwood, <nemesis at icequake.net>, icq=10317253
> The UNIX mindset is different: "It doesn't work? Hmm - lets find
> out why. And fix it/make somebody fix it." - smells of good old
> engineering.
Precisely. Windows was designed to be a consumer operating system. UNIX
was designed to be a techie's operating system. Case closed. Argument over.
This is why UNIX vs Windows arguments hardly make sense,
and get old. If you consider yourself a consumer, feel free to indulge
yourself in the prettiness and dumbness of Windows, and not feel ashamed for
it. Or, discover that a Linux distribution designed for end-user friendliness
suits your needs too, and use that instead. Either way, why does it matter
which is better designed or more powerful? As a consumer/user, you are
concerned only with what you can use the operating system for. Why get in
shouting matches over who does what better? It's irrelevant.
If you're a techie, well, you're likely not using Windows anyway, having long
discovered that its limitations and inconsistencies do not suit your manner
of productivity. If you notice other techies being hampered by Windows, you
probably introduce alternative systems to them, because you feel that it can
improve their productivity.
In other words, use what works best for you, and that you feel comfortable using.
That's the pragmatic-modern view.
However, this is ignoring the obvious problem with Microsoft and
pure monopolistic capitalism, destroying innovation and limiting choice.
Microsoft is proving that the idealistic concept of a "free market" really
is bogus in some ways.
HOWEVER:
It is quite possible to decrease MS's market share and force them to play
fair like everyone else. To do so, the goal is to _reduce the market share of
Windows machines_. Very simple. Whether you're a MS fan or not, this is
the only solution that makes sense in the long run. (A monopoly is good for
nobody in the long run, not even its supporters.)
Whether the machines run some flavor of UNIX or any other operating system
is a moot issue -- it just so happens that most of the alternative operating
systems that exist today are UNIX-based. If you'd rather use FoobarOS or
CP/M, go for it.
As a user or a developer of an alternative system: If you care about the
system, work to improve it, and attract others to your platform by virtue of
its capabilities. Perpetuating endless arguments is a waste of effort --
instead of arguing in circular fashion (Nuh-uh! Yuh-huh! Nuh-uh! ....),
demonstrate in a practical manner how your platform is superior, and only
when asked or otherwise appropriate. Be open, but don't shove it down people's
throats.
You'd be surprised how many people listen to reason, even when they themselves
are not necessarily reasonable folk. A carefully constructed, relevant
argument goes a long way towards promoting one's beliefs.
I love 'nix as much as the next guy; but I also am quite fond of reason,
ethics, and integrity. That's why I won't play dirty to beat MS into
submission, even though _they_ reached their current position by playing dirty.
A goal I'd much rather achieve is beating them at their own game, by simply
being _better_ at it. Result? A better MS, better alternatives, and a fair
market. Competition sorts out the market, but there has to be competition
first. Free (as in beer) software is a great start to dislodge the 20-year
Wintel monopoly. It gives people a glaringly obvious reason to move to a
platform that is (in the opinions of its developers) better supported, more
consistent, and has an open, flat development model, where every user and
developer are equally powerful in driving its future. The initial shock
of moving out of the grasp of MS may suck sometimes, but once gotten over,
few go back.
An idealistic wet dream? Probably. But I won't stop trying.
I'll continue working to give people reasons _why_ they should use my platform,
and hope that others do the same.
(WARNING: 2am grogginess may be present in post)
--
Ryan Underwood, <nemesis at icequake.net>, icq=10317253
> Now I won't use anything else but vi, because it's fast, flexible and very
> light on termcap (unlike a certain *ahem*PICO*ahem* other editor
> *ahem*PICO*ahem* I could mention). It was well worth the effort. One of my
> persistent threats is to write a stripped down vi clone for the C64.
There's also a rewritten 'vi' called 'vim', for "vi improved". I was hesitant
to use it at first, since it's much bigger/more bloated than good old BSD
vi, but I've found that no editor in existence gets along better with funky
terminals and termcaps on various UNIX systems than vim does.
Some other niceties are a full command history, full undo history, and session
recording. The full undo has saved my ass numerous times compared to the
one-level undo of BSD vi. The command history is great when you want to
edit a previous s-expression without typing the whole (blasted, cryptic,
unreadable) thing over again. :) Session recording lets you use vim as a
sed-like filter to automate making the same changes to numerous files.
Highly recommended -- and it comes with a nice tutorial too for introducing
newbies. And a GTK+ verson for those that prefer windowing.
--
Ryan Underwood, <nemesis at icequake.net>, icq=10317253
<pedantic>My dictionary says John McIntosh discovered a late-maturing
variety of red apple in Ontario in 1796. Said variety of apple is now named
for him. Apple Computer chose a different spelling to name a line of their
computers to play on the word "apple", but to be different.</pedantic
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris [mailto:mythtech@mac.com]
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 3:33 PM
To: Classic Computer
Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor
>It's spelled WITH the 'a' in it at the grocery store ... they are a mite
>tart,
>but make decent pie ...
Humm... I'll have to check that if I go to the store tonight, I could
have sworn they list them as McIntosh Apples on the shelf tag and the
little annoying fruit stickers stuck on them.
-chris
<http://www.mythtech.net>
> From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner <spc(a)conman.org>
> So why do people expect to get immedate work out of a computer without
> training?
Because Bill Gates said they could.
Glen
0/0
>Is there some reason why people aren't flocking to this
>the way they did to the original Windows?
Because no one in the unix community has had the deep pockets to do the
advertising blitz that MS did to cause people to want Windows.
MS has NEVER sold a "superior" product... they have just done a great job
of making people think it is better (usually thru lies, half truths, or
errors of omission), and convincing the purchasers that MS products are
what they want.
Oh, and lets not discount their monopoly practices that have helped
insure people use their products, and artificially inflate the counts of
people that want to use it.
Again, praying on the fact that most people are too ignorant, or don't
care enough, to search for a better alternative. If someone can
accomplish the task they want to do, and they can do it with some degree
of ease and expediency, they are not apt to change the status quo. They
are unlikely to investigate the fact that there may be better, faster,
more capable ways of doing their tasks... Microsoft knows this, so they
make sure their products are just good enough to make it past the initial
break in time period (or in some cases, make sure it is sufficiently
difficult to install or use the competition), and then they know most
people will continue to use the product because "that's what they are
used to".
All of this has NOTHING to do with how good the product is, and
everything to do with the psychology of marketing. And I don't think
there is anyone that can argue the fact that MS has the best damn
marketing department anywhere.
-chris
<http://www.mythtech.net>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com]
> I've also got some *nix experience, and, frankly, anything
> that requires I
> recompile the OS just to install a driver is too much
> trouble. I've done
> that, but hopefully never will again.
I thought I would mention here that Unix has had dynamically
loadable kernel modules for a while. I know from experience
that the Unix PC O/S (at least from 3.0) uses them for graphics
stuff.
IRIX has also had them, after a fashion, for a while. (Actually,
IRIX has a "sysgen," but technically it's a re-link, not a re-
compile)
Chris
Christopher Smith, Perl Developer
Amdocs - Champaign, IL
/usr/bin/perl -e '
print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");
'
> Why Apple Computer changed the spelling, I don't know.
IIRC, in "The Mac Bathroom Reader" they said they changed it simply to be
slighty different than the fruit. But who knows if that is correct.
-chris
<http://www.mythtech.net>
> First off, a Mac mouse has one button. That is a conscience design choice
>made by Apple. No confusing the user with this ``left button/right button''
>choice---there's just ``the button'' on the mouse. Simply saying ``use the
>left mouse button'' may cause confusion because not everyone is right
>handed. On a right-handed mouse (or a mouse to the right side of the user)
>the left-button is used as the primary button, which is also under the index
>finger of the user. The right-button will be under the middle finger (or
>ring finger for three-button mice).
Some people say this is a hogwash arguement. I personally would like to
see Apple issue a two button mouse, but as long as 3rd parties are doing
it, I'm probably not going to argue.
But I CAN tell you, probably the most recurring statement I give over the
phone for windows tech support is "unless I specify right-click, it is
always left-click"... and this is to people that use the Windows PC every
day... and they still are unsure which button to click at a given point
in time. And despite that friendly reminder, they mess it up time and
time again ("I clicked, but no menu popped up" or the opposite "I
clicked, but all that happened was this menu appeared").
I will freely admit, when it comes to that issue, it is MUCH nicer on the
Mac. I just say "click" and they have no issues. If I want them to use
the context menu I can then specify "hold the control key", but then, on
the Mac, it is rare that I tell them to access a context menu, as there
are few times it is of any additional help except to a more advanced
user. Unlike in windows, where the context menu is almost a neccessity
for doing some actions... try it, create a new folder on the windows
desktop... without using contextual menus... now, try to explain that
process to someone that is having a hard time grasping left and right
clicks, and tell my if it is easier than just explaining "put the arrow
on the desktop someplace that has no icons, right click on the desktop,
choose NEW from the menu that pops up, choose Folder from the submenu
that pops out" (we will discount the repeat the process that occurs when
the person that can't handle a mouse clicks off the menu or clicks on the
wrong thing).
Or for the Mac varient... "hold the command key down, it looks like a
cloverleaf, has an apple symbol on it, its next to the spacebar.... press
the letter N".... There's no step 3... there's no step 3!
-chris
<http://www.mythtech.net>
> From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca>
> I think small and clean ( bootstrap able too is handy) languages are few
> and far between. C was that at one time, but not any more. While I don't
> expect complers to run in 64kb I think 64 Meg is far too much bloat.
So, use an older C compiler. I still use Turbo C++ 1.0. The C++
implementation sucks, but for "real" C code under MS-DOS, it still kicks
ass, and runs in 640 Kb. I wish I had something as good for CP/M-86 :>(
Glen
0/0
> From: Allison <ajp166(a)bellatlantic.net>
> No, a St251 would not interface to EDSI. It will interface to both MFM
and
> RLL though RLL may/may_not be reliable with that drive. I have used
ST225s
> with RLL controllers to get ~30mb from them (st225 is 20mb MFM).
What's your success rate with this? I tried it a couple of times years ago
and encountered some very subtle but nasty data corruption.
Glen
0/0
At 10:51 AM 5/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Allison [mailto:ajp166@bellatlantic.net]
>> I disagree. The UCSD version was an excellent teaching tool but
>> slower than sludge due to the P-code thing. Later implementations
>> namely JRT and Borland were very useful tools.
>I'm also of that opinion. I like Pascal, and Modula, and Oberon...
>Chris
I went from HP3000 BASIC to UCSD Pascal. I liked it. In retrospect,
the things that suck about Pascal are the argument passing mechanism
and strings. C is better essentially because it lets you manage
memory directly, without predefined string sizes. And it lets you
handle the guts.
But I am not a C programmer in general (except when programming
microcontrollers in RT applications); I write mostly scientific numerical
(portable) code, and Matlab and FORTRAN rule in that realm. Yes, FORTRAN. :-)
My stuff runs under Solaris, AIX, Linux, HPUX, and Win32, using gcc/g77,
HP f77, Sun fortran, xlf.
carlos.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo(a)nospammers.ieee.org
> From: Pat Finnegan <pat(a)purdueriots.com>
> - Altos 580-B02, dual 5-1/4" drives, software
> - Altos 8000-15A, dual 8" floppies
> - "User manual" for the Altos Series 5, Xerox'd
> - Televideo TV-925 w/user manual and maintenance manual
> - 3xOsborne-1's, at least two need some repair.
> - Commodore VIC20 with "all the fixin's"
Nice job!
> I've managed to get an Osborne 1 to power up, it looks to have a stuck
bit
> on the video memory (bad DRAM perhaps). I don't have software. Does
> anyone have software for this?
I have tons of the stuff. Let me know what you want.
Glen
0/0
Hello. I have joined the list into the see if any of you subscribers have
a copy of Norton Utilities 1.0. This is the original NU issued in 1982 on
one double-sided 5.25 floppy. I don't know whether this came out after DOS
1.0 and before DOS 1.25 or came out after DOS 1.25. I do know that
DOS 2.0 came out in March 1983 and NU 1.X was superceded shortly
thereafter by NU 2.0. I am only looking for an NU diskette or copy that
was before NU 2.0. If you have an old diskette and know what is on it but
don't know the version, I will be able to tell you whether you have 1.X or
something later.
I am doing this research for a client who will buy at market price or better.
Please email me or call me at 202-778-0002 and tell me what you have.
Thank you
Ceceile
Ceceile Kay Richter
mailto:crichter@ResearchSource.com
Should have asked this 20 years ago when everyone
remembered (well, those of you who'd been weaned by
that point, anyway...).
200, 556, 800, 1600bpi: bpi, bits per inch. I understand this one.
3200 cpi: is this characters-per-inch?
6250 fcpi: what, "framed" characters per inch?
One certainly can't figure this out merely by looking
at the capacities of the various modes...
Mostly just a curiosity, nothing really hinges on this...
-dq
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com]
> It's not difficult to do, since everything ends up in
> "MyDocuments" as a
> default. Now, with very little effort at all, you CAN,
I don't remember that working too well under windows 95 --
possibly it's been fixed since then. I haven't paid much
attention to that part.
> indeed, lose a file.
> However, if you use the Find command (assuming you know the
> name of the file,
> or at least an extension), there's some help there. That's
But if you've never seen a computer, how are you supposed to
know what an extension is? Or how do you tell where to "find"
the find command? :)
> better than I did
> with the Apple "finder," whatever that is...
Yep, "finder" is a pretty stupid name, and so is "chooser," but
no more stupid than "explorer" (any of the three ;) "Excel" --
what does it do again? "Access..." Yep, that's great too. "Power
Point..." It must be a software implementation of a hunting dog.
To be clear, "finder" does actually provide the "find" command
to find a file. Chooser actually does provide a list of "stuff"
and let you "choose" something off of the list (for all that it's
worth :) The names aren't sufficient at all, though.
> Excel. It worked
> fine, though, at least within the limits of himem.sys and
> smartdrv.sys, both
> of which were flawed in that incarnation.
Well, you've just hit on my main complaint with windows again...
but we've covered that.
Chris
Christopher Smith, Perl Developer
Amdocs - Champaign, IL
/usr/bin/perl -e '
print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");
'
I have the datasheet. It is a 64kx16 static ram module. Can be
configured as 64kx16, 128kx8 or 256kx4. Offered 25 to 65ns access time.
If you need more email me, the datasheet is 8 pages. Mine is 1990.
David Gesswein
http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights.
>From: "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com>
>
>Now I'm really confused, Joe. Thanks for stirring the coals, though.
>
>I can't find any Intel memory data before '82, and by that time they were on
>5-volt-only EPROMs all the way. The brocheure I'm thinking of, with respect
>to that 8748 evaluation board, has the "it's a 5-volt world" slogan that Intel
>liked to use in promoting the 2716 back then, but I'll find the '78 8748 book
>eventually, since I just looked at it yesterday.
>
>'t seems like I'll never learn to keep house ...
>
>Dick
>
Hi
I believe the half bad 2716 of Intel's were call either
2758 or 2508, not 8708. I'm almost sure that the 8708
was the one that could handle the negative bus levels on
the input, as I said earlier. You are correct that they
sold the H and the L version for the level to put on
the A10.
Dwight
>X-Server-Uuid: 1b77f47c-118c-11d5-bbc5-0002a5132c3d
>X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.ezwind.net: majordom set sender to
owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org using -f
>X-Sender: rigdonj(a)pop-server.cfl.rr.com
>Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:29:52
>To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
>From: Joe <rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com>
>Subject: Re: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>X-WSS-ID: 10C80D742279406-01-02
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Steve,
>
> I don't have the programming instructions for the 2708 but I do have them
for the intel 8708 and intels later manuals state that they're the same. Here's
what I have in the sept 1975 8080 Microcomputer Systems User's manual.
>
Hi
I believe the main difference between the 2708 and 8708 is that
the 8708 could handle negative levels on the data bus so it
could be connected directly to the 8080's data bus.
Dwight
>>> I just remember that all the 87xx parts, 8741, 8755, 8748/49, etc,
were all
>>> 5-volt parts. further, I'm not at all sure that the 8080 had
below-ground
>>> signal levels, since they were intended to be attached to bipolar
parts, e.g.
>>> 8212, etc, which would have been intolerant of that. What I've got
in my lap
>>> is the 8080A data, which may, actually be different, but IIRC, the
8080 needed
>>> the negative bias supply so it could swing to ground and the +12 so
it could
>>> swing to a reasonable high level. My only contact with the 8080 was
on boards
>>> made by Intel, and, while I poked around with a 'scope and other gear
from
>>> time to time, I don't recall ever finding an address, data, or
control signal
>>> that wasn't TTL compatible.
Wrong! the 8080 and 8080A had basically the same levels and drive. the
issue
of negitive voltages on the output is a red herring.
The 8708 accoring to the 1978 8048 manual is a THREE voltage part with
the exact pinout as 2708. It's of course an intel number to allow the
"kitting:
practice that intel did do back then... "FAE>>> ya gotta use 8xxx parts".
Now for a note, looking at the 1979 Intel component data book the 2708
is
listed and save for a faster programming method the 8708 is identical per
notation in the data book!
Recommended programming pusle width is .1 to 1 millisecond and the
programming loop should not program any location for more than a total
of 100mS. Though I remember programmin them using a 1ms pulse and
doing a read to see if it took, programming it 5 times more for over
program and looping till it took and moving on to next location. If a
location
took more than 90 hits is was flagged as bad. That seemed to get the
best life out of the parts according to my notes. FYI: over eraseing
them seemed to kill them too.
Programming voltage is nominal 26V pulsed! All other votages are static
(Vcc, Vdd and Vss) with *ce/we being driven as needed for read or write.
> That's not the point. The point is that the inputs and outputs are
TTL (0V/5V) level and not a negative voltage. FWIW IIRC even the 8008
had a fan out of more than one. I have the manual and can look if it
matters.
Correct it was 2 LS loads. And the old 4004 was ttl if used with the
correct supply
voltages -10 and +5 wich was typical of the PMOS logic.
Allison
The Rhode Island Computer Museum ( see www.osfn.org/ricm ) would be very
interested in your NorthStar Horizon parts. We have an Horizon chassis,
backplane/motherboard and wooden cover (in "repairable" shape), but
precious little else, and I am looking to fix that omission. Please
note that the Rhode Island Computer Museum is an IRS-recognized 501(c)
charitable organization, so any donations made are tax deductible.
Please contact me at your earliest convenience:
Mr. Geoffrey G. Rochat
Vice President, Rhode Island Computer Museum
1 Barrows Rd.
Mendon, MA 01756
geoff(a)pkworks.com
508-478-1748
-----Original Message-----
From: Brain, Jim <JBrain(a)aegonusa.com>
To: 'classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org' <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Monday, May 06, 2002 6:04 PM
Subject: Northstar Horizon Stuff
>I just found some old N* Horizon parts during a cleaning fit. I have
the
>following:
>
>Lots of hard sector disks
>2 64 RAM board.
>2 FD controllers
>2 Z80B boards
>2 FD drives
>1 motherboard
>
>I do have the cases (with the PS and such, but only until Thursday,
since
>they are scheduled to be pitched this week. They aren't in the best of
>shape, and they are SO heavy, so I pulled what I thought was worth the
>shipping weight cost out of the 2 units. If you do want a case part or
a
>capacitor, let me know before Thursday so I can have my wife pull the
part
>off the chopping block.
>
>Anyone interested in S100 parts and hard sector disks? The units were
>working last time I used them, but that was 5 years ago. I make no
>promises. If there are a few folks, I want to spread the wealth.
>
>Basically, I just don't want the parts to sit in the landfill.
>
>You might want to email me directly, to not clog up the list, and
because I
>have limited access to email this week while out of the office and
lists
>will probably get queued until next week.
>
>Jim
>
>
>Jim Brain, jbrain(a)aegonusa.com
>"Researching tomorrow's decisions today."
>(319) 369-2070 (work)
>SYSTEMS ARCHITECT, ITS, AEGON FINANCIAL PARTNERS
>
>
>
>
>From: ajp166 <ajp166(a)bellatlantic.net>
>
>>>> I just remember that all the 87xx parts, 8741, 8755, 8748/49, etc,
>were all
>>>> 5-volt parts. further, I'm not at all sure that the 8080 had
>below-ground
>>>> signal levels, since they were intended to be attached to bipolar
>parts, e.g.
>>>> 8212, etc, which would have been intolerant of that. What I've got
>in my lap
>>>> is the 8080A data, which may, actually be different, but IIRC, the
>8080 needed
>>>> the negative bias supply so it could swing to ground and the +12 so
>it could
>>>> swing to a reasonable high level. My only contact with the 8080 was
>on boards
>>>> made by Intel, and, while I poked around with a 'scope and other gear
>from
>>>> time to time, I don't recall ever finding an address, data, or
>control signal
>>>> that wasn't TTL compatible.
>
>
>Wrong! the 8080 and 8080A had basically the same levels and drive. the
>issue
>of negitive voltages on the output is a red herring.
I guess I'm wrong here. I just remember something about negative swings
but it was a long time ago.
>
>The 8708 accoring to the 1978 8048 manual is a THREE voltage part with
>the exact pinout as 2708. It's of course an intel number to allow the
>"kitting:
>practice that intel did do back then... "FAE>>> ya gotta use 8xxx parts".
They did make changes in some cases with the leading number.
The 4702A was different than the 1702A in that the negative
rail could be -10V instead of -9V, although, the 4702A would
program and function at -9V. Maybe this is what was confusing
me.
>
>Now for a note, looking at the 1979 Intel component data book the 2708
>is
>listed and save for a faster programming method the 8708 is identical per
>notation in the data book!
>
>Recommended programming pusle width is .1 to 1 millisecond and the
>programming loop should not program any location for more than a total
>of 100mS. Though I remember programmin them using a 1ms pulse and
>doing a read to see if it took, programming it 5 times more for over
>program and looping till it took and moving on to next location. If a
>location
>took more than 90 hits is was flagged as bad. That seemed to get the
>best life out of the parts according to my notes. FYI: over eraseing
>them seemed to kill them too.
These can be baked if they are in the ceramic package. This
brings them back to life. When I was in the lab, we did this
often. I don't recall the temeperature we used.
The 2716's were more robust. We left some under the UV light
for weeks and had no data retention problems ( although, we
only required them to hold for about 6 months instead of 10 years ).
Dwight
>
>Programming voltage is nominal 26V pulsed! All other votages are static
>(Vcc, Vdd and Vss) with *ce/we being driven as needed for read or write.
>
>
>> That's not the point. The point is that the inputs and outputs are
>TTL (0V/5V) level and not a negative voltage. FWIW IIRC even the 8008
>had a fan out of more than one. I have the manual and can look if it
>matters.
>
>
>Correct it was 2 LS loads. And the old 4004 was ttl if used with the
>correct supply
>voltages -10 and +5 wich was typical of the PMOS logic.
>
>Allison
>
>
> FYI: over eraseing them seemed to kill them too.
Intel ROMs also had another strange behavior when
exposed to too much UV... they'd only work with a
little light (possibly needing some UV). I may have
told this one before, but one embedded system I
did suddenly stopped working when we close it up
in a box. Open it up, it would work.
On my suspicion that light was involved, we ran
it in a dark room; no run. Shined a flashlight on
it, ran fine!
A conversation with an Intel tech verified this
was possible. Too strange, tho...
-dq
>Names like "chooser"
>for something that doesn't choose, and "finder" for something that doesn't
>find, is pretty confusing.
Well... the Chooser is used to "choose" your printer (and network server,
and sometimes fax modem, or PDF converter, and occasionaly a scanner, and
once in a while some other stuff)
And the Finder is used to find and locate your files on the hard drive,
floppy drive, or other storage device... as well as to launch them,
modify them, copy them, delete them, and do pretty much anything else
that interacts with them, or applications, or many other parts of the Mac.
What's so confusing about that? :-)
(yes, that is a joke... Finder and Chooser are some fairly odd names for
what they do)
-chris
<http://www.mythtech.net>
From: Doc <doc(a)mdrconsult.com>
> I've been wondering, based on some old posts to the CP/M groups. Will
>the same disk, for example an ST251, format and work off either an MFM
>or an ESDI controller? Totally true, totally false, depends on drive?
> For that mmatter, is there a good newbie-level reference for the 2
>interfaces? They were history when I started playing with keyboards,
>and I never dreamed I'd need to know.
The problem with EDSI was it sued the same cables as MFM IE: the pair
of 26 pin and 34pin. The interfaces however were toally incompatable.
No, a St251 would not interface to EDSI. It will interface to both MFM and
RLL though RLL may/may_not be reliable with that drive. I have used ST225s
with RLL controllers to get ~30mb from them (st225 is 20mb MFM).
Allison
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com]
> Maybe someday someone will write a DOSEMU that works like
> DOS, and a WINE that
> actually executes Windows App's. That would go a long way to
> ending the MS
> monopoly on user-friendly, and make it possible for 3rd-party
> application
> developers to get up some applicatons that really work.
Heh -- I'm sure M$ has a monopoly on something, but it certainly
isn't "user-friendly..." Even if you define user-friendly as
"acting just like windows," there are a few other things around,
regrettably, that do that these days.
That aside, though, have you tried Wine recently? It's coming
along nicely, and DOSEMU looks a lot like DOS to me.
Did you mean to single DOS out as being "user-friendly?" I ask
because it doesn't strike me as exceptionally so...
Chris
Christopher Smith, Perl Developer
Amdocs - Champaign, IL
/usr/bin/perl -e '
print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");
'
Peter,
I have a lot of old Interak stuff, including literature. It is in my loft and will be thrown away (I keep saying). Is it of interest to anyone.
Cheers
Errol
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com]
> What's an AMIGA path?
A path such as you'd use on a Commodore Amiga?
Chris
Christopher Smith, Perl Developer
Amdocs - Champaign, IL
/usr/bin/perl -e '
print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");
'
> My interests and experiences
>have been concentrated on microelectronics and microcomputers, which, if you
>think about it ( assuming you can do that without spouting off first )
...
>> I have friends with the IQ of a potato, who have less than 5+ years of
>> non daily use of a Mac, and know far more than Richard appears to know.
>>
>... and I'm sure that applies to you too, since birds of a feather flock
>together ...
... and from earlier...
> When you get old enough that you're out in the working world,
I can officially shout... I DID IT... I PISSED OFF RICHARD!!! WooHoo!!!
Have a nice day :-)
-chris
<http://www.mythtech.net>
>... and just exactly where does one find a precise reference to this
>convention?
I can't quote a source, but I can say that traditionally, in English, all
caps refers to an anacronym. And since MAC has something it stands for,
each and every time you refer to a Macintosh as "MAC" you are in fact
refering to something other than the Macintosh computer.
And typing it as MacIntosh is just simply wrong. Look at any literature
by Apple, you will never see it with a capitol I. I think that is a throw
off from people that are typing it via the name of the fruit, which is
ALSO wrong, since the name of the fruit is McIntosh (no a).
Its just a pet peeve... I'm not going to really care if you continue to
type it MAC... but doing so shows a gross ignorance of the platform, and
really undermines any and all arguments you may have to say for or
against it. You can't really take someone seriously in discusssions of a
system if they can't refer to it correctly, as it just shows that they
have spent so little time dealing with the system, that they clearly
can't base their statements on anything educated. It doesn't matter if it
is the Mac, or if it is something else.
-chris
<http://www.mythtech.net>
Well, I just looked over the shelf for Pat and see I have MP/M,
Microfocus Cobol, and Wordstar for the Altos 8000. Anyone know whether
any of these have been released to pd or under free-as-in-beer license
or anything? I will google, but I see a number of others here have Altos
machines, and thought somebody might know straight off.
Thanks,
jbdigriz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com]
> require I learn the path names to the objects on which I want
> to operate.
Not required, but just for information, Mac pathnames are
traditionally colon-separated in a similar manner to Amiga
paths.
Chris
Christopher Smith, Perl Developer
Amdocs - Champaign, IL
/usr/bin/perl -e '
print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");
'
From: Megan <mbg(a)TheWorld.com>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Monday, May 06, 2002 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: free DEC M7555 card
>
>>This is a RQDX3 ESDI hard disk controller.
>
>RQDXn is not ESDI at all.. it is MSCP.
Further edification on the subject.
RQDXn is MSCP host controller with MFM hard disk interface
as well as a floppy interface for RX50 or RX33.
EDSI is a disk interface.
Allison
On May 6, 14:20, Richard Erlacher wrote:
> Now I'm really confused, Joe. Thanks for stirring the coals, though.
>
> I can't find any Intel memory data before '82, and by that time they were
on
> 5-volt-only EPROMs all the way. The brocheure I'm thinking of, with
respect
> to that 8748 evaluation board, has the "it's a 5-volt world" slogan that
Intel
> liked to use in promoting the 2716 back then, but I'll find the '78 8748
book
> eventually, since I just looked at it yesterday.
> > >I do believe you've misread part of the spec's, Joe. The 8708, IIRC,
is a
> > >5-volt-only version of the 2708, otherwise masqueraded as the 2758.
I hate to disappoint you, Dick, but my Intel 1979 Data Book lists the 2708
and 8708 on the same page, with the note "All 8708 specifications are
identical to the 2708 specifications", and then proceeds to describes all
he characteristics of a standard 3-rail EPROM. The 1976 book i referred to
earlier does list them in separate sections, but I don't see any
significant difference in characteristics, not even in input voltage range.
I think you're confusing it with the 2758, which the same catalog shows
right after the 2716, identical in all respects except that the 2758 has
A(R) on pin 19 instead of A10. A(R) has to be low for all device access,
even "standby" mode, except in the case of -S1865, when it has to be high.
It would appear that the 2758 is in fact a one-half-working 2716.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
On May 6, 13:30, Richard Erlacher wrote:
> It's not difficult to do, since everything ends up in "MyDocuments" as a
> default. Now, with very little effort at all, you CAN, indeed, lose a
file.
> However, if you use the Find command (assuming you know the name of the
file,
> or at least an extension), there's some help there.
...providing what you're looking for is not the file needed by find.exe
itself. cf Windows' infamous message to the effect that that "one of the
files that find.exe requires is missing". This is a well-known problem
with Windows XP, at least, and there's a specific article about it on
Microsoft's website.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
>It's spelled WITH the 'a' in it at the grocery store ... they are a mite
>tart,
>but make decent pie ...
Humm... I'll have to check that if I go to the store tonight, I could
have sworn they list them as McIntosh Apples on the shelf tag and the
little annoying fruit stickers stuck on them.
-chris
<http://www.mythtech.net>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com]
> Where the files go is a function of the applicaton, and less
> of the OS.
Actually, MacOS has -- and I thought windows had too -- allowed
for the OS to make some overrides. Any application that uses
the standard file dialog may ask for the location to be set
somewhere, but the system can override that.
It's my impression that this is done on windows 2000, and on mac
OS 8, at least.
Chris
Christopher Smith, Perl Developer
Amdocs - Champaign, IL
/usr/bin/perl -e '
print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");
'
Hi all,
I just got back a few hours ago from grabbing a few 'toys' to play with:
- Altos 580-B02, dual 5-1/4" drives, software
- Altos 8000-15A, dual 8" floppies
- "User manual" for the Altos Series 5, Xerox'd
- Televideo TV-925 w/user manual and maintenance manual
- 3xOsborne-1's, at least two need some repair.
- Commodore VIC20 with "all the fixin's"
I've managed to get an Osborne 1 to power up, it looks to have a stuck bit
on the video memory (bad DRAM perhaps). I don't have software. Does
anyone have software for this?
The Altos 580 and 8000 don't 'work out of the box.' The 8000 supposedly
needs a new powersupply. The 580 has an unknown problem - the power
supply seems to be putting out power OK, and swapping the floppy drive DS
jumpers around didn't help. Right now, it lights the 'in use' light on
Drive 0, spins the disk motor as soon as power is applied, and then the
motor turns off and the disk spins down almost immediately. I don't get
any output from the serial port marked 'JA' (I've tried both straight
through and null-modem cables). Pressing the 'reset' button (is that what
it is?) on the front doesn't seem to do anything.
Does anyone have any info that'd help me repair the 580? I've got a good
amount of electronics knowledge/experience, and have a scope laying around
I know how to use...
Also, I need to get some software for the ACS 8000. I've got a set of IBM
8" floppy disks, but no software for the machine.
Thanks for the help.
-- Pat
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com]
> If you configure *nix well, it's still cyptic and impenetrable to the
> uninitiated.
Well, if you want it to act like windows, configure it to act like
windows. In fact, go one step better: give the user a menu of N
choices, where N is the number of tasks you require of them. That
removes all guess-work.
Nothing would prevent you from doing that.
I guess my point here is that user interface is not such a problem
when choosing different platforms. You can always get (or write) an
add-on, and probably much more easily than you can get or write an
add-on which will do, for instance, file restriction by ACL.
Of course, I have my UI preferences, and you have yours, but when it
comes down to it, they're similar enough already that you can make
one act "close enough" to the other to avoid confusion most of the
time.
Chris
Christopher Smith, Perl Developer
Amdocs - Champaign, IL
/usr/bin/perl -e '
print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");
'
> Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 09:04:23 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Megan <mbg(a)TheWorld.com>
> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: free DEC M7555 card
>
>
> >This is a RQDX3 ESDI hard disk controller.
>
> RQDXn is not ESDI at all.. it is MSCP.
>
> Megan Gentry
> Former RT-11 Developer
Well, it is MSCP on the software side.
But it is ST506 on the hardware side.
And only a small selected set of ST506 drives at that.
carl
--
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com]
> OTOH, with user-friendly systems, you just install the driver
> and reboot.
Any decently modern system can be treated in that fashion, more
or less.
I would be surprised to find one that had been modified since
1982 that would not do that.
> you don't have to reboot. When I add another drive, for
> example. It's
> possible to do that without much more than a 'mount'
> directive under *nix as
> well, isn't it?
Yep, the difference there being that if you're adding a drive
to an interface that's already configured, there's no driver
problem at all.
Chris
Christopher Smith, Perl Developer
Amdocs - Champaign, IL
/usr/bin/perl -e '
print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");
'
>I fear that your `anacronym' is an anacronism and what you really meant
>was acronym - a synthesized word made from the first characters of the
>words of a (group or organizational) name.
>
Yup, that is what I wanted.
>> have spent so little time dealing with the system, that they clearly
>> can't base their statements on anything educated. It doesn't matter if it
>> is the Mac, or if it is something else.
>
>Hmmmm!
Case in point... I have shown my lack of education in language time and
time again, my grammar, and spelling, are horrible. I have little grasp
of the fundimentals of ANY language, and people would be ill-advised to
listen to much of an argument I might present regarding language use. I
failed my way thru all english classes from grade school thru college. (I
am fluent however in mumble-ese)
So it would be expected that I would make such a mistake above. But then,
I haven't tried to argue language concepts since I put my foot in my
mouth regarding sentense structure some time back. (I don't consider
correcting MAC to Mac to be a language argument, rather a usuage
arguement for lack of a better word, along the lines of pointing out that
PS/2 is an IBM computer, and PS2 is a Sony game system... you don't need
to know language for that, you just need to know how the terms are used
by their respective groups)
-chris
<http://www.mythtech.net>