- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by classiccmp＠trailing-edge.com

OK, spring cleaning time again. Free for pickup in the Washington DC suburbs: strictly first-come, first-serve, and I strongly want to get rid of the stuff this weekend. Some items are large and will require a truck (or a truly full-size station wagon.) If interested, drop an E-mail to me at "shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com" or call on my cellphone at 202-320-9410. OK, the list - largely an inventory of stuff that hasn't been used in at least two years: 40 RL01 and RL02 packs, with various diagnostics and other tools on them. A Wright-line cabinet with the metal racks for holding the above packs. 6 RL01 and RL02 drives. Rack-mounting rails for the same. RX02 drive unit. Gobs of RL01 and RL02 cables. Also, all my miscellaneous RL termiantors, buttons, unit select plugs, and lamps. 2 Storagetek 1600/6250 BPI 9-track drives, Pertec formatted interface, rack- mounting hinges. Many BA11- and BA23-style Q-bus enclosures. Bunch of 11/23-era CPU's and memory for whoever takes the enclosures. One pedestal-style BA23 with most (all?) of a Microvax III in it. One BA123 with most (all?) of a Microvax II in it. PDP-11/04 in 5.25" high box, H777 power supply. Several H960 (6-foot) racks will be available, assuming that you (or someone else) will help me carry them up the stairs. A bunch of Trimm drive enclosures for 5.25" drives. Styled like BA23's. Many 5.25" FH SCSI and ESDI drives. Many 5.25" floppy drives. Many Shugart 8" floppy drives. Tim.

24 years, 1 month

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APPLEVISION Monitor

by mythtech＠mac.com

>(1) Several guys believe that using Windows obscures much of the power of >the >computer from the user. Is that important if the user's needs are met? > >(2) Several guys believe that using Unix/Linux is "Better." Why? If the >user's needs are met, what does it matter how it happens? > >(3) Several (at least one, probably more) Mac advocates have stated that the >Mac offers more efficiency. How does that figure? How does it help so long >as the needs of the user are met? > >(4) What does it matter which OS or hardware arrangement is "better" if the >user's functional and budgetary requirements/limitations are met? I think it has become clear... the reason why Richard can't grasp why something might be better than Windows is simply because he doesn't grasp that maybe, there are better ways of doing things. He seems content with successfully doing a task, and cares not about making that task easier, faster, or more "pleasant". For instance, I can flip a burger on a hot grill with my fingers. What does it matter if I use a spatula, I got the job done didn't I? My needs were met weren't they? And I even saved money up front since I didn't have to buy anything to flip the burgers. However TCO of this method will rapidly become apparent when I start burning myself. My "user experience" will decrease since I will have sore fingers. I will also start racking up bills on aloe cream to soothe the burns. But my needs were met, and I did it with a cheaper setup than my neighbor who bought the grill tools set, so why should I admit that there may be a better way... it doesn't matter, I can flip burgers just fine already. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

24 years, 1 month

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List Exodus (Was: Re: Kai Kaltenbach (was: RE: What other lists are there?)")

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> > On Tue, 7 May 2002, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > > > > > > > > A lot of folks > > > > > > > > who had a lot to contribute here have left because of this problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got any examples to back that statement up? > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck McManis, Andrew Davies, Tim Shoppa... I'm sure there are more who > > > > > > chose to simply make silent departures. > > > > > > > Eric Smith too -- miss him. Eric stays very busy, and I think that's a common theme amongst the members of the exodus. They don't have the *time* to wade through the noise to get to the signal. However, I think some seemingly absent members might be lurking. Steve Robertson is one example who comes to mind. Eric remains everpresent on USENET, and co-collaborator Al Kossow continues to scan the list for comment-worthy material, so if you ring Erics's bell loudly enough, I think you'll get his attention. Others noted missing: Chris Kennedy (I fear my carburetor thread chased him off); Mark Crispin; Daniel Seagraves; Lance Costanzo; Rob Kapteyn; David Betz; Dave Mabry; Lawrence LeMay; Brian Wheeler; Brian Knittel; Dave Babcock; Clint Wolff; Curt Vendel; Jim Arnott; Shawn Rutledge; Edwin P. Groot; Brian Chase; Mike McFadden. If I keep digging through personal correspondance, I'm sure I'll find more. We didn't hear much from Allison until recently; did I just recently see a post from Megan? R. D. Davis was gone or silent for a long time (and please don't anyone use this as an opportuniyy for a gouge) My Co-Cyber Conspirator Greg Travis subscribed and unsubscribed in the very same day. Now, I'd like to believe in many cases, that people just get busy, and as you all know, if you subscribe to this list in non-digest mode, you MUST service your inbox or routed folder DAILY or you will just fill up. So I suspect some of these people unsub, then sub back up briefly to test the waters. They don't see what they like, they unsub again. Others may have switched to digest mode but don't post because there's not enough signal to be of interest. Oops, I forget I run at 1280 x 1024, and a windowfull of text might be pages for others, so I'll cut this short... -dq

24 years, 1 month

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Visit Pueblo! QpNq22uuQ8

by hartfordtrHAff＠btamail.net.cn

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24 years, 1 month

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Vacation in Pueblo i889AY-mMNh-qr

by hartfordesr1NF＠btamail.net.cn

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Visit Pueblo Wmx9NkXP-12ehAC-5GUqnVkG

by hartfordSHR1Z3＠btamail.net.cn

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24 years, 1 month

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New acquisitions

by john_boffemmyer_iv＠boff-net.dhs.org

Well, after swinging past Dave Woyciesjes' a week ago Saturday, I now have 2 HP DeskJet Plus' and 1 HP DeskJet 500 (Thanks Dave =] ). Nifty little Inkers, I loved those series because I could never get them to die. I also have acquired though other sources an old NYNEX telecom box that appears to be for Digital Lines (from Demarc to RJ48 and out to a cable that has RJ48 on one end and a custom pinned (?) DB15 with 6 actual pins connected that I'd have to assume is either RS232 or V.35. The unit was taken off a wall in an abandoned office my co. had gone into to rewire for new owners. I have also acquired more DB9 to Type 1 "vampire" Token Ring cables, approximately 2 meters long in the same job. Anyone interested in the box and cable or the Token cables since I literally have about 10 of them? Possibly in trade for a Madge PCI Token Ring NIC or so? Also, anyone know of a device to cross the gap between Token Ring and Ethernet, such as a bridge? I'm looking to have my 16/4 Token Ring talk to a non-upgrade-able Ethernet system and have it go out to my broadband connection. Any ideas? I apologize ahead of time for not immediately replying, for I am in the middle of a stubborn upgrade of my PC motherboard to a Bio-Star M7VKD Pro from my failing ABIT KT7A, so since documentation, etc. are not fully abundant, it may be a day or two before I read the list again. -John ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html - site down for maintainance ---------------------------------------

24 years, 1 month

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Evolution of the WIMP (Windows/Icons/Menus/PointingDevice) Interface (Was: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor,, No shell = No power)

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> Simple. I hate reaching for a mouse/trackball that's a mile away when my > hands are already positioned on the keyboards. It's sooo much easier not > having to use a mouse and keyboard at the same time. In fact, I'd venture > to say it's easier to use a keyboard than a mouse, in part for the same > reason the Mac has a menubar at the top of the screen... you KNOW without > thinking about it where all the keys are on the keyboard (if you're a > half-decent typist). Thinks you have to point and click at on the screen, > using a mouse, you don't have the same spacial relationship with, and thus > it's more difficult to hit things exactly. Both the mouse and keyboard are true Fitt's Law devices. However, I think you might be right for keyboards that perfectly match the combo of forearm length and finger/hand size for a given person (i.e. there is no universally perfect keyboard). I was a two-finger typist from 1976 until 1991. Once day while writing an article (for the Cobb Group's Inside QuickBasic), I realized I was no longer looking at the keyboard and my fingers were resting on the home row. The keyboard: The Mac Extended II. OTOH, except for text entry, my right hand is always lighty resting on the mouse, the left hand on keyboard home row. -dq

24 years, 1 month

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Changing Subject Lines (Was: RE: Cryptic Unix Arcana (was: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor, Anything !Windows = Cryptic ?)")

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> > > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" <spc(a)conman.org> > > > Message-Id: <200205070202.WAA10268(a)conman.org> > > > Subject: Cryptic Unix Arcana (was: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor, Anything > > !Windows = Cryptic ?) > > > > OH... MY... GOD! > > > > Sombody actually changed the subject line of this > > thread-from-Hell-that-just-wont-go-away! > > > > Thank you, Sean... this might revive my interest... > > > > ;) > > 'seems like almost everybody has a few things to say ... > > Dick But the thread long ago ceased having much to do with the monitor of your original inquiry. Wasn't suggestiing the discussion should stop... just that people should edit the subject line once the topic shifts... -dq

24 years, 1 month

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APPLEVISION Monitor, Anything !Windows = Cryptic ?

by nemesis-lists＠icequake.net

Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 07:34:39 +0000 X-Mailer: Pyne 0.6.9 (Linux) Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <1020756426.880772@localhost> Ben Franchuk wrote: > In my view that what I don't like about linux/unix -- the design > of the architecture is still based on very primitive user I/O devices > and a mode of computing that is not realistic today. It's quite realistic if you depend on programs being able to talk to each other, and being able to operate them in a simplistic manner when necessary. For end users, it might be inconvenient (which is why we now have multiple abstractions in the form of desktop environments, GUI programs, and what-have-you), but the mere existence of the capability for a simplistic interface does not force the user to go through that interface. e.g., you can use vi or pico if it suits you, and it's definitely easier for a script to use something like 'ed', but as a user, you're obviously not forced into only using those programs, as there are programs with arguably much more intuitive interfaces to do the same tasks. -- Ryan Underwood, <nemesis at icequake.net>, icq=10317253

24 years, 1 month

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Heathkit Sweet-P plotter

by rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com

Does anyone have a copy of the manual for this? Or can at least post the specs for it? A Google search found nothing. Joe

24 years, 1 month

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Kai Kaltenbach (was: RE: What other lists are there?)

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

> Kai was on this list? I knew him in the 80's when he was coding on a > Citadel BBS..... Yes, back in the '97-98 timeframe. Zane

24 years, 1 month

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What other lists are there?

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> On Tue, 7 May 2002, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > > > > A lot of folks > > >> > who had a lot to contribute here have left because of this problem. > > >> > > >> Got any examples to back that statement up? > > > > > > Dave McGuire. Not an insignificant loss, in my book. > > > > Did I miss that? I don't recall him publicly bidding the > > list farewell? There certainly is a considerable amount of > > experience that left with the people already mentioned that have > > unsubscribed. > > He didn't post a resignation, no. He did, in private email, cite a > couple of folk in particular as irritants, but I think it was the > overall picture that got him fed up. Woa, when did this happen? Come to think of it, I haven't seen any posts from Sridhar, either. Come back, guys! Without the Dave & Sridhar Show, life is losing its meaning! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

24 years, 1 month

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IRIX on Personal Iris

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On May 7, 7:13, Robert Schaefer wrote: > Well, my latest toy is here, but it looks like I screwed up a little when I > picked up an IRIX CD for it. I got 'IRIX 5.3 for Indy R4400 175MHz', but > according to http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ this version is Indy-specific-- I > need the plain vanilla 5.3 CD, or 5.3 XFS. Anyone have one to trade? Or > maybe even 4.x? Many of the ones listed as Indy-specific are merely lacking a boot file for Indigo and earlier systems. I installed 5.3 onto the Indigos in the next room from "IRIX 5.3 for Indy including R5000", having booted the miniroot >from an older release. > Also, if anyone has a source for 8MB simms, keyboards, and mice I'd be > interested. You can upgrade a 4MB SIMM to an 8MB one very easily -- just add the chips and change one (? IIRC) SMD resistor. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

24 years, 1 month

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APPLEVISION Monitor

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > weren't present and functional with no way of figuring out > what the problem > was because of the doc-shortfalls, was too much work. It was > easier to do > with NT. Honestly, the easiest O/S installs I've ever done on a system where the O/S needed "installed" were IRIX and VMS. Strange? Maybe, but as far as I'm concerned, those are each a monument to good installation methods. > work on? I know lots of *nix guys like to type a couple of > lines of cryptic > stuff before their computer allows access to a resource that would be > point-n-click accessible under Windows. Maybe they're willing to type a couple lines for the sake of the added reliability, maybe it's easier for them to type it out than to grab the mouse... or maybe they're stupid, and think typing makes them look impressive. (I'd certainly like to think that it would be one of the former, but considering some people I've seen around, using and advocating Unix, I'm not so sure) :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 1 month

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APPLEVISION Monitor

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Alex White [mailto:meltie@myrealbox.com] > UNIX as a system to use personally is only cheap if you don't > value your > free time. (well-worn but useful quote.) Disclaimer: I only use stuff > that ain't MS at home. I find this is the case for windows, but not Unix. I have some Unix machines at home, which never give me any trouble. I haven't had a problem with either system in three years that wasn't a hardware problem. In other words, they "just work." The system I've had for longer than three years hasn't given me any software problems since I was messing around with experimental drivers, and that was my own fault. I've had hard drives die after years of continuous use (but I keep backups...), and I've had the processor cook itself on one system when the fan gave out, but again, that's a hardware problem. Now, if you need a rock-solid system, rather than just a passable one, then you can use VMS, but Unix works most of the time, and better than windows and MacOS, in my experience. ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 1 month

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Recent Acquisitions

by lists＠subatomix.com

Schoolwork has kept me busy for the last few months, but I did manage to find a few things recently at the local university surplus outlet. 2x metal 9-track magtape storage cabinets, about 5'Hx4'W 1x Macintosh Quadra 950, for a friend The magtape cabinets don't compute, but I'm very excited to find them. I've been needing something in which to store all the magtapes I've begun to acquire. The cabs are a little rusty, but that's nothing a little paint job this summer won't take care of. I'm thinking PDP-11 red-and-maroon might be nice colors for it. I just missed a big old reel-to-reel audio recorder. I saw it go out the door. It was quite large and rolled around on its own floorstand. -- Jeffrey Sharp The email address lists(a)subatomix.com is for mailing list traffic. Please send off-list mail to roach jay ess ess at wasp subatomix beetle dot com. You may need to remove some bugs first.

24 years, 1 month

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iMac //c URL

by vcf＠siconic.com

It would help if you had the URL ;) http://www.usennet.ne.jp/~ikawada/iMacIIc/iMacIIc-1.html -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

24 years, 1 month

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APPLEVISION Monitor

by mythtech＠mac.com

>> I'm sorry... I just can't do it any more. >> >Then don't ... When you get old enough that you're out in the working world, >where your performance is measured on whether or not you meet schedule and >budget, and not on how cute your comments are, you'll understand the >realities >of why people use what they do. If you're just idly fiddling with something >interesting at home, nobody cares how long it takes you. Actually... I am in the working world... and the reason I like the Mac so much more is because it IS more productive for the needs here than Windows. I had a whole long winded explination for this, but I decided not to waste bandwidth, and I summed it up to this. Increase in employee productivity, reduction of costs, and reduction of support time directly translate into two things that effect my life. 1: increase in free time 2: increase in year end bonus So where I have flexability to choose what systems are installed... I choose them based on what will maximize the above two points. It is greedy, selfish, and egotistical for me to place my personal choices on everyone else here... but since in order for me to increase what I want, I have to make their lives easier, and I have to reduce costs, no one has yet to complain about my choices. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

24 years, 1 month

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iMac //c

by vcf＠siconic.com

Someone in Japan with a lot of time on their hands apparently put an iMac into an Apple //c. Pretty slick. I hope you can read Kanji. Otherwise, enjoy the pictures. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

24 years, 1 month

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APPLEVISION Monitor, Anything !Windows = Cryptic ?

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > However, I'm not > so sure it's as trouble free when you want to use a single > machine to do a > multitude of widely varying things. I find that very funny. I'm not going to argue with it right now, though I don't agree, of course. It's amusing, though, since it's the same argument that I often offer against windows. :) > What? Where's there a Windows emulator for Linux that runs > MSOFFICE? Will, > it at least, run CorelDRAW? How about the Xilinx Foundation Years ago, I used to run CorelDRAW under wine -- this was before windows 95, so it was the 3.1 version of CorelDRAW. It also ran M$ works. I would be surprised if it didn't run some recent version of office or Corel's suite. > software, or > ALtera's Maxplus-II? Not sure about those. > Why don't more people use it then? Is it because, unlike Because they use windows instead -- the majority of them. If they were used to using linux, and if linux had all of the marketing momentum that windows had, they'd use it instead, or if the Grundey corporation had given GrundeyOS the proper marketing at the right time, they'd use that. People use what you hand them. I'm not convinced that popularity can be any indicator of quality. You only need look at the high-quality products in any given market segment to see that. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 1 month

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DOS "libraries" (was APPLEVISION Monitor)

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> >At least with QuickBasic you had the choice of incorporating BRUN45.EXE > >and BRUN45.LIB into the .exe file. I remember that with Borland > >compilers you had to include lots of files such as > >CGA.BGI, HERC.BGI, EGAVGA.BGI together with any application that > >you wrote. > > When I was running both TurboBasic and PowerBasic, neither > one required you to issue 'includes' to access standard video modes. > In over 12 years of running PowerBasic I've never had to link to an > external file. PowerBasic also compiles into fairly small > executable's, which are the only thing required unless there are > datafiles that the programmer required to be present. I never liked > the way QuickBasic required the distribution of it's external library > with the executable, especially since you never quite knew which > version of it a given program would require as things changed. As Carlos stated above for QuickBASIC, and as I pointed out for the professional BASIC compiler, it is NOT necessary to distribute the external library with the executable. You could create stand-alone executables that required no external support. However, they were not small. Beginning with QuickBASIC 4.0, the ENTIRE C LIBRARY was part of the runtime. And even if you never used graphics statements, all the graphics code got pulled into the executable (in the case of the stand-alone binaries) or was at least present in toto in the separate runtime. This had not been the case with QuickBASIC 3.0 (where I began with QB). I imagine Turbo^H^H^H^H^HPowerBASIC uses the more sensible approach of linking into the executables ONLY the stuff needed. Microsoft could have done this, but they clearly did *NOT* want to devote the resources needed to make it a truly professional product. -dq

24 years, 1 month

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DOS "libraries" (was APPLEVISION Monitor)

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> And thusly Ben Franchuk spake: > > > > What pisses me off is the fact that both systems use dynamic libraries. > > This makes a real mess of things. I liked dos -- you have a program > > it runs from the .exe non of this you need version blah blah blah ... > > > > DOS sometimes needed library files - take 32-bit protected mode. You need to > have a DOS extender file in the path or directory of the executable. Not just that- the Microsoft BASIC compiler provided two modes of compilation- one that produced HUGE stand-alone binaries, and one that kept the HUGE chunk of common code in a runtime-library. That library had to either be in the current directory or somewhere along the path... -dq

24 years, 1 month

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APPLEVISION Monitor

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust@threedee.com] > Huh? Amiga volume names ended in colon "DH0:" but > the folder names weren't separated by colons in a path string. Ok, so I'm confused. How, are Amiga directories separated, then? > I can't remember an instance where a Mac application allowed the > user to enter the colons, although they were used internally, and > you could use them in some developer tools that gave command > lines or operated on "makefile"s. They're at least few and far between. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 1 month

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Installing Windows (was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Feldman, Robert <Robert_Feldman(a)jdedwards.com> >Having just (re)installed Win95 twice in 3 weeks on reformatted hard drives >(trying to install Adaptec CD burning software trashed Windows so badly that >I had to reformat the drive to clean up the mess), I can say that an >installation is not one keystroke. You have to agree to the EULA, enter the >serial number, select the install directory, select the type of install, and >must reboot at least once in the process. As someone that uses winders to make a living. Most of the hearsay I've heard I'd have believed at one time. I do winders installs that are annoying in the number of reboots though with a tweeked install script and some planning that can be cut down some. The only time I do this is when I install a new drive so I do have users running W95osr2 that havent seen a reinstall for years due to care and clearing the junk at install time. If you know how to manage the install you can run W95 successfully (if not slowly) on a 386/16 with a 120mb disk and have it useful. The standard install puts a lot of junk on and it isn't anywhere near optimum for number of reboots or general configuration. However, the real problem is that many of the windows apps can be damaging if installed in the wrong order, or in the case of devices in the wrong way. You learn which ones do and dont work. In my case the adaptec Cd-burner software is the prefered (really!!) one. But it does expose the real problem with W9x, the OS and it's working files and libraries are exposed to bad tempered apps and users which can kill the OS. Do I like winders? No. Is it useful? Yes. Could it be better? You bet! Does it limit me in the work I need to do? Not yet. I've used it for everything from lightweight servers to RT systems. Allison

24 years, 1 month

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Ease of Use (Was: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor)

by mythtech＠mac.com

>> But I'm a geek. At what cost have we dumbed-down the computer >> so that nearly anyone can use it? And are you aware that in >> the minds of marketing people, the market is *far* from >> saturated, as there are still lots of people who never use >> them and don't have them. So you can expect another order of >> magnitude of dumbing-down... > >It is not hiding information that is the problem, it is >locking the knowlage it in a safe, throwing away the key >and dumping in the sea. This is why I think OS X will be favorable with many "geeks". Apple is AOLizing the UI so that people that currently are still afraid of a computer, will be willing to use it. Apple is dumbing it down as much as they can (just look at the colored buttons for close, minimize and expand). BUT... Apple is leaving all the hard core tools there. They aren't stopping anyone from using them. They are just providing pretty front ends to the most commonly needed and wanted tools. Basically, Apple is trying to make OS X a "magic toaster oven"... for the computer afraid, all they have to do is walk up and press a button, and get their toast. But for those that want to, they can press that button on the side, and watch the toaster change into (insert Transformer OO EE OO AA AA noise here) a microwave, or dishwasher, or rocket car, or anything else you darn well want it to. MS seems to want you to buy the toaster, and they will bundle a mop & bucket, light bulb, step stool, and oil filter wrech. All of which will just cause the toaster to suck up enough power to trip your fuse box every few uses. And later, if you decide you want to microwave some popcorn... well, you have to buy the microwave attachment, which won't fit quite right, and will most likely cause your toaster to burn out. But the microwave will be bundled with a lint brush, wrapping paper, bug guard, stapler, and three Mortal Combat action figures. And when you decide you want to use the toaster as a rocket car... well, MS will tell you you can't do that... for that you need to buy "Toaster 2k Pro" and none of the current add ons you bought are legally transferable, so you need to repurchase them and reinstall them from scratch. Oh, and with Toaster 2k Pro, each person that wants to make toast now has to have a seperate permission slip to do so, at $80 a pop. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

24 years, 1 month

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Installing Windows (was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor)

by rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com

I've had to reinstall WinTrash 98 at least six times in the past two weeks due to network problems and Robert is correct. Not only do you have to manually input all that stuff but you also have to tell it to add drivers for MODEMs, network cards, Video cards etc etc etc and you have to insert and remove their driver disks frequently along with repeatedly swappin the Win install disks in and out. Further WinTrash frequently can't find the drivers on the disks so you have to search for the files manually and manually enter the full path name for the files. THEN you have to reinstall all of your applications and reset all your favorites, server names and addresses, remove the trash MS applications that WinBlows installs, configure the desktop, add virus protection, firewalls, etc etc. It takes at least a day to get a DECENT system configured and running. However from what I've seen of Linux and most other Unixs, WinBlows is still faster and easier to install for 99.99% of the people. ?NIX is just too cryptic and it seldom comes with hard copies of documentation. (Exactly how are you supposed to refer to documentation or help files when the application/system isn't running? Both ?NIX and MS are lousy in this regard!) Joe At 08:22 AM 5/7/02 -0600, Robert wrote: >Having just (re)installed Win95 twice in 3 weeks on reformatted hard drives >(trying to install Adaptec CD burning software trashed Windows so badly that >I had to reformat the drive to clean up the mess), I can say that an >installation is not one keystroke. You have to agree to the EULA, enter the >serial number, select the install directory, select the type of install, and >must reboot at least once in the process. > >Also, by the way, Win95B is OSR2, IIRC. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] >Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 12:21 AM >To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor > > >I agree it's a pain to babysit the Windows installation if you have to. An >installation on a bare drive is just one keystroke and a 40-minute wait, >during which you can go out to lunch. It's simply going to assume the >defaults when you do that but at least you get to eat lunch. > >What's really awful is when you upgrade, say, from 95B to 95OSR2, having ><snip> >

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Ease of Use (Was: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor)

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Glen Goodwin" <acme_ent(a)bellsouth.net> > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> > Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 11:07 PM > Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor > > > > From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner <spc(a)conman.org> > > > > > So why do people expect to get immedate work out of a computer without > > > training? > > > > Because Bill Gates said they could. > > > > Glen > > 0/0 > > Is it because of Bill, or because it's simply so? > > Dick Twenty-eight years ago, I walked up to a Teletype ASR33 hooked to a Control Data 6500 and started writing BASIC programs, and the closest thing to training I had was to find a drawer containing some end-user documentation. Five years later, on my first day of my first professional full-time position as a programmer on a system I'd never used before (a Prime), I was handed a magtape from another system I'd used only once or twice (an HP 2000/Access system), and before the day was over, had pulled the programs from the tape and had several of them running. But I'm a geek. At what cost have we dumbed-down the computer so that nearly anyone can use it? And are you aware that in the minds of marketing people, the market is *far* from saturated, as there are still lots of people who never use them and don't have them. So you can expect another order of magnitude of dumbing-down... -dq

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APPLEVISION Monitor

by mythtech＠mac.com

> Yes, if you install the Accessibility Options in Windows, there is the >MouseKeys function, which allows you to control the mouse with the numeric >keypad... > > I'm the useless knowledge fountain today, aren't I? ;P Easy Access control panel will do the same IIRC on the Mac. (and it has "sticky keys" which will let you use one finger to press multi-key combos, you start with the first key, and it remembers that it should be down, and lets you move to the next and so forth... it was supposed to help people that had to use things like a bite stick to type) -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

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Apple CD 150.

by mythtech＠mac.com

> 1./ It ejects CD's when I insert them. Is it sick or is it > just trying to say "invalid SCSI connection"? > There currently is none. I have this nagging feeling that drive will not take and hold a CD unless it is connected to a Mac. Otherwise, check the front eject button and make sure it isn't stuck. You may have to remove the faceplate, many mac eject buttons are actually just as pass thru button to the real drive button behind it. If you can't get it up and going, I will try to remember to look at mine when I get home tonight. See if there is anything else I can suggest to try. > 2./ I'm using the standard CD caddies, is that OK? Yes, it should work with any old CD caddies. Apple's caddies were nice, but I have used generic ones on that drive in the past without problem. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

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APPLEVISION Monitor,, No shell = No power

by mythtech＠mac.com

>The Macintosh doesn't even offer a command line interface, right? System 1.0 thru OS 9.x.... no, no command line, no need for it. OS-X, yes, there is one IF you wish to use it, but there is very little need for it (and less and less of one with each update issued) -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

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source for 82S141?

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

Anyone have a reasonable source for Phillips 82S141's? I also need 82S129's - Jameco has these around 7 bucks a pop, but was curious of anyone knows of a better price/source. Thanks! Jay West

24 years, 1 month

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APPLEVISION Monitor, Anything !Windows = Cryptic ?

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:spectre@stockholm.ptloma.edu] > > Bash is the 'borne-again shell' (a user-friendly version of > the Bourne > > Shell. > Of course, *real* men use tcsh. ;-) ;-) ;-) Actually, I found the bourne shell to be user-friendly enough for me. ;) (I do like some bash features, like the command- history and what not, so I use it on that account) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

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2708 Programming Algorithm?

by dwightk.elvey＠amd.com

>From: ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> Hi >> I believe the main difference between the 2708 and 8708 is that >> the 8708 could handle negative levels on the data bus so it >> could be connected directly to the 8080's data bus. > >Err, Every 8080 I've ever used has had TTL levels on all the pins apart >from the clock inputs. There is no problem using 'normal' EPROMs with an >8080 AFAIK > >-tony > Hi I couldn't remember exactly what it was so I looked it up. I was both right and wrong. First, it wasn't negative levels, it was positive levels. The 8080 requires 3.3 volt highs on their inputs. Most TTL only require 2.5 volts. Intel made a number of parts compatable with these higher input threshold levels. The statement that 8080's are TTL compatable is only mostly true. They could drive TTL but to receive from TTL often required pull-up resistors or drivers that had higher outputs. So, it was drive level and not input voltage that was significant. Dwight

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APPLEVISION Monitor

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > I have done software support in a Windows environment, and > I have done > training of both adults and children in both Linux and Windows. > Chris's crack about finding the new document after writing it, in > Windows, was dead on. My stint as "the computer guy" in a > Windows shop > was in a University of Texas research lab. Not exactly morons I was Well, Doc -- you're not the only one who's had to support windows. ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

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APPLEVISION Monitor

by mythtech＠mac.com

>I can't remember an instance where a Mac application allowed the >user to enter the colons, although they were used internally, and >you could use them in some developer tools that gave command >lines or operated on "makefile"s. I'm unaware of any "consumer" application that presents the colon to you EXCEPT Script Editor when writing AppleScripts. But that should really fall under the dev tools catagory, I just figured it was worth a mention since it is installed with the default OS install. I can say for sure that no time is the average user of a Mac forced to deal with the colon for a path. For that matter, no time is the average Mac user forced to deal with a path at all... on the Mac it is all laid out in terms of storage inside folders. Sure, underneath the surface that is all directory path stucture, but from the UI standpoint, it is much more friendly to just think "I put my resume inside my Documents folder". Windows has gotten MUCH MUCH better at removing the path structure from the user, but it still isn't quite there (witness just about any application installer that will still ask if you want to store the app in "C:\Program Files\MyApp") -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

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APPLEVISION Monitor

by mythtech＠mac.com

>Chris (and everybody, for that matter) try OS X, if you get the >chance. I think you'll like it, especially if you have some experience >with *BSD or *nix already. Or I could show you next time you're up here, >Chris... I have X installed on another partition on my home iMac. I use it from time to time, but I have a number of tools that I need that are classic only, and just work better under OS 9 native. Although, the #1 tool is Interarchy's stream watching abilities. They don't offer an X version, so I have to use the os 9 version, which won't work under classic. But this was really an issue of *nix ignorance. Interarchy removed the ability from the X version, because BSD already HAS the ability, something that I only just became aware of. Chances are good, this weekend, I will boot back into X and give it another whirl (my other hold out is a good web browser that will ALSO let me do the daily AOL crossword puzzle... so far only IE in X will do it, and I prefer not to run MS stuff if I have a choice) -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

24 years, 1 month

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APPLEVISION Monitor, Anything !Windows = Cryptic ?

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Moyers [mailto:rmoyers@nop.org] > Unix, for years, shipped with a editor nobody could use > and backspace key that did not work, and seemed rigged Hmm -- the backspace key has always worked for me, and the editor, while being not incredibly nice, was useable. > Linux is the first nix i saw that came out of the install > with a working backspace key and several editors > that a person new to Unix could use. Obviously, you hadn't been introduced to IRIX or NeXTSTEP. > I credit these two things for its success, no longer > did it have two most fierce deterrents to learning. I never saw them as real problems. The editor could be replaced, and if you don't like the way the backspace key works, you can re-assign it. :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 1 month

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APPLEVISION Monitor,, No shell = No power

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > While I agree there is plenty of room for preferences, I > don't see why one > would want everything isolated from everything else on the > LAN, when the > existence of the LAN is warranted by the need for shared > access. ON top of If you're talking about his remote X session in a separate window, I think he's emulating a not-so-good "feature" of windows, there, actually. Have you used Citrix, for instance, or "microsoft terminal server?" I like the normal X11 way of handling local and remote applications identically. > that, typing half a screenful of text just to make some file > on some other > machine accessible seems a mite burdensome. Even under DOS > it only takes a > single half-line of text. Heh -- Yep. I think he gave you a bad example. You know about NFS (or AFS, or whatever), right? One can configure these once, in the one line you speak of, and have another system's files available thereafter as if they were your own. SSH (previously RSH would have done...) will allow you to use remote CPU resources if you like, too, and in the same single line. > Some people just like *NIX because it enables them to stroke > their own need > for pseudo-sophistry. As with any platform. I can't argue that. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

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Ease of Use (Was: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor)

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > > But I'm a geek. At what cost have we dumbed-down the computer > > so that nearly anyone can use it? And are you aware that in > > the minds of marketing people, the market is *far* from > > saturated, as there are still lots of people who never use > > them and don't have them. So you can expect another order of > > magnitude of dumbing-down... > > It is not hiding information that is the problem, it is > locking the knowlage it in a safe, throwing away the key > and dumping in the sea. Agreed, that happens all-too frequently... but many of us here are dedicated to the prevention of knowledge becoming lost, and where possible, to its rediscovery. A late visit last night dropped paper listings of stuff I did 20+ years ago that I've been unable to recover from magtape. It's a bit 'o typing, but if we can't get the tapes read, you can bet your bottom dollar I'll be typing it back in. -dq

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APPLEVISION Monitor

by mythtech＠mac.com

>Go on, nick a fruit sticker and scan it in as proof, dare ya... I tried, but none of the McIntosh apples had stickers that say the name on it. And the shelf tag was a nice plastic expensive looking plate with nutritional info and stuff on it. Of course you would think that would stop me from trying to take it, but no, it was the strong glue holding it to the produce cabinet that kept it from being mine. I did however buy one (figured it would be a good lunch snack), so I have the nice sticker that says "#4019" to remind the minimum wage cashier what number to punch in to charge me correctly. BUT... as it should happen, the register receipt on their nice new fancy POS terminal did show the name. (Point Of Sale for the acronym impaired, not Piece Of Sh*t although I think the cashier would argue in favor of the latter). So the following link is a scan of my receipt (and the #4019 sticker) showing the name as the receipt printed it. If anyone wishes to still say the fruit is spelled MacIntosh, well, I leave it to them as an exercise in web searching to validate it. <http://www.mythtech.net/McIntosh.jpg> -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

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So-Called Real Programmers and FORTRAN

by Robert_Feldman＠jdedwards.com

The nice thing is that both TP 5.5 and TC 2.01, along with TC++1.0, are available for free download from Borland at https://community.borland.com. -----Original Message----- From: Allison [mailto:ajp166@bellatlantic.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 8:09 AM To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org Subject: Re: So-Called Real Programmers and FORTRAN From: Glen Goodwin <acme_ent(a)bellsouth.net> >> From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca> > >> I think small and clean ( bootstrap able too is handy) languages are few >> and far between. C was that at one time, but not any more. While I don't >> expect complers to run in 64kb I think 64 Meg is far too much bloat. > >So, use an older C compiler. I still use Turbo C++ 1.0. The C++ >implementation sucks, but for "real" C code under MS-DOS, it still kicks >ass, and runs in 640 Kb. I wish I had something as good for CP/M-86 :>( Borland TurboPascal V5.5 and TurboCV2.01 They are 8086 sized and still produce good code that seems to run fine under W98se and NT4. Allison

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ARM Interfaces TIDE (Transputer IDE) Tram

by RMeenaks＠olf.com

An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020507/3cbfff5f/at…

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APPLEVISION Monitor, Anything !Windows = Cryptic ?

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > I just consider "user-friendly" as being such that you can > take an unitiated > but interested party, set them down at the console, and > expect them to be able > to do what they want to do without first attending extensive > training. I know Most computer systems could claim that title, then. I don't know of any system, for instance, where word processing requires extensive training. (I am assuming that by "do what they want," you'd mean to exclude writing device drivers ;) At a very worst, one must convince them to type the command for the word processor, and start writing. > Windows does that, however, and so, apparently does the Mac, > though I find it > confusing because it's not what I've grown to know, if not love. Again, I think most systems do. It's probably just a question of degree, and doubtless there's a point beyond which you'd call a system "user friendly." You seem to treat "user friendly" as an end in itself, or perhaps it's the means to get more work from your employees? I see it as a means of using the computer to do what I want, so the "user friendly" must not get in the way of doing that. Any system where that happens, no matter how "user friendly," seems downright hostile to me. :) Also remember that "user friendly" is relative. It's a difficult matter to find a good, generic user interface. It's fine to design machines to do one thing, or a few things, and they'll do them very well if the people working on the design know what's going on. Making a generic system is more difficult. There's the matter of scope: what should the system do? There are trade-offs in simplicity vs. completeness. Many other problems arise too. I don't think anyone has ever done this perfectly, and everyone who tries has some problems. In fact, many of the problems stem from conscious design choices. I'm sure that until this hypothetical "perfect interface" appears, we will all have our preferences. This interface is not acceptable, for reason Q; this other one won't work, because it's difficult to do Z... ... but this one is "user friendly," because it does what I want it to do. What, you don't do much lambda calculus? Use it anyway, it's "user friendly!" No, there's no word processor available, but who cares... ;) Anyway, you get the point, I'm sure. For a windows user to say to somebody "windows is user-friendly, because it lets me run office apps easily" is silly, since the next person may not care a bit for office apps. I could tell that same person "windows is user hostile, because it's difficult to handle dynamic libraries, and its API is a mess." Will that matter to the user? (The answer is yes, but they don't know it, so they don't care.) It's all in what you're doing, and what you can put up with to get it done. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

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X config

by meltie＠myrealbox.com

Has anyone got a config - ie modeline to run a DEC VR319 (-DA) or VR297 in X they can grab and post for me? Thanks Alex -- My computer's heavier than yours.

24 years, 1 month

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APPLEVISION Monitor

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > Maybe they're willing to type a couple lines for the sake of > > the added reliability, maybe it's easier for them to type > Now just a minute there, Chris ... You don't make any fewer > typos than I do Nope, and I handle it fine. > and if I had to type a line of gibberish such as what you > showed us all a week > or so ago and then figure out what was mistyped I'd go blind. You do realize that any sane person would never write code that looks like that, unless he were using TECO? ;) At any rate, that was Perl. There is a windows port too, and it's certainly not a requirement. > Every keystroke > is a mistake waiting to happen. How do more keystrokes make > it more reliable? I think you may have misread me there. It's not the keystrokes that make it reliable, it's the underlying system that accepts them. Remember, I don't trust windows. (Possibly more than you distrust Unix...) I'd rather use a command line system and know (or at least believe ;) that it will do what I ask without having anything explode, and without making me wait until it finishes thrashing itself into oblivion. Admittedly, windows is better recently on those two counts, but I can not trust it to stay that way, and it's not good enough yet, anyway. Unfortunately, I'm forced to use windows in my work, (I assume and hope that you're no longer forced to use Unix in yours) so I imagine that I have a fairly good idea of the current windows platform. It still strikes me as severely lacking in several departments (some subjective, and some not), including reliability. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 1 month

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Installing Windows (was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor)

by Robert_Feldman＠jdedwards.com

Having just (re)installed Win95 twice in 3 weeks on reformatted hard drives (trying to install Adaptec CD burning software trashed Windows so badly that I had to reformat the drive to clean up the mess), I can say that an installation is not one keystroke. You have to agree to the EULA, enter the serial number, select the install directory, select the type of install, and must reboot at least once in the process. Also, by the way, Win95B is OSR2, IIRC. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 12:21 AM To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor I agree it's a pain to babysit the Windows installation if you have to. An installation on a bare drive is just one keystroke and a 40-minute wait, during which you can go out to lunch. It's simply going to assume the defaults when you do that but at least you get to eat lunch. What's really awful is when you upgrade, say, from 95B to 95OSR2, having <snip>

24 years, 1 month

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APPLEVISION Monitor

by mythtech＠mac.com

>However, if you use the Find command (assuming you know the name of the file, >or at least an extension), there's some help there. That's better than I did >with the Apple "finder," whatever that is... Find file has been included with the Mac OS since I think System 6, maybe 7 (either way, for some 10+ years). Command-F from the finder... or go to the File menu and choose "Find" (where, it should logically be... you want to find a "file" go to the "file" menu, and choose "find"). But we know you haven't used a Mac since right after the Lisa came out, so you probably messed with System 4 or 5 as the latest, which IIRC you actually had to run the Find desk accessory manually to search for a file. Granted, the IE warped versions of Windows have that nice "Search" button in the folder views, which is a little easier. Is there a find button in the windows of OS-X? (Dave? Anyone? Sorry, not a huge X user yet, I can't quote all the features off the top of my head yet) -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

24 years, 1 month

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APPLEVISION Monitor

by acme_ent＠bellsouth.net

> From: Chris <mythtech(a)mac.com> > I can't... I just can't any more. I have been trying to be nice to > Richard despite all the clear flame bait he has been throwing out here. > > I'm sorry... I just can't do it any more. Perhaps a VRE (Victims of Richard Erlacher) support group (alt.support.vre?) is needed to assist those of us who have suffered repeated neurological meltdowns as a result of exposure to the content of his posts ;>) Glen 0/0

24 years, 1 month

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So-Called Real Programmers and FORTRAN

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Glen Goodwin <acme_ent(a)bellsouth.net> >> From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca> > >> I think small and clean ( bootstrap able too is handy) languages are few >> and far between. C was that at one time, but not any more. While I don't >> expect complers to run in 64kb I think 64 Meg is far too much bloat. > >So, use an older C compiler. I still use Turbo C++ 1.0. The C++ >implementation sucks, but for "real" C code under MS-DOS, it still kicks >ass, and runs in 640 Kb. I wish I had something as good for CP/M-86 :>( Borland TurboPascal V5.5 and TurboCV2.01 They are 8086 sized and still produce good code that seems to run fine under W98se and NT4. Allison

24 years, 1 month

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