- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by dwightk.elvey＠amd.com

>From: jpero(a)sympatico.ca > >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" <dwightk.elvey(a)amd.com> >Subject: Re: Looking for CRT tester/rejuvenator >To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >Reply-to: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:53:02 -0700 (PDT) > >>From: "Claude.W" <claudew(a)videotron.ca> >> >>Hi >> >>Looking for a "recent has possible" CRT tester/rejuvenator to do work on >>several older terminals, monitors and other equip with CRTs I have around >>here... >> >>Borrowing the high $ unit from work is not good for me....Carrying large >>monitors into work is not practical... >> >>Will trade or $s. >> >>Claude >>http://computer_collector.tripod.com >> >> > >Hi > They can be tested in place. Most rejuvenators just run the >filaments at about 1.5X to 2X the voltage while the rest of the >voltages are at zero. You can do this with a bench power supply. >Dwight > >Another reason for having rejuvenator it has ablitity to test >emissions and leakages (short), also can remove those shorts as well >besides just heating the heater HOTTER. You are right but it is still the brightness of the screen that counts in the end. Measured emission is only part of the end result. Tired phosphors can't be measured without a photometer or the eye. Shorts can be opened the same way. Charge a large capacitor and hit it to to short. Again, a cheaper way. > >Secore brand is very good, get used one instead to keep cost down, be >prepared for sticker shock. Your best bet is buy up new TTL monitor >(mono) and stick the new tube into your old terminals is cheapest. > >Otherwise for color CRT is same from used monitor except have to >spend lot of time convergencing them. Convergence is an art. Dwight > >Cheers, > >Wizard >

23 years, 7 months

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Looking for CRT tester/rejuvenator

by dwightk.elvey＠amd.com

Wow I rejuv old '20's tubes all the time. I just do it the old fashioned way. I'm not all that sure adding a PIC to the process would mean much. There is no such thing as a "safer & gentler" method. You need to bring the cathode to a temperature that is hot enough to bring new material to the surface. This always has the chance of blowing the filament. If done right, this can take from 2 to 20 minutes. I doubt that running it for, exactly, 19.53 minutes is much different than 20 minutes. You run it for a while with the higher voltage then measure the emission. You are the only one that can decide when it is good enough. How does the PIC know that the tube will be bright enough? It might even be over doing it?? Should it be as bright as new?? Should the emission value be the only judge?? Why is it that everyone thinks that a computer controlled or LASER light is better than tried and proven methods. I guess we all just read the labels and except what some marketing fellow wrote. There are some things a computer can do faster than me. It is a little more consistent than me. But it can be consistently bad as well. I guess if the computer blows it up, you can say that it was destined to fail anyway. Anyway, I thought you were talking about one of the old fashioned tester/rejuvenators. They just had a meter needle that was labeled red/yellow/green and a push button labeled Rejuvenate. I guess I'm just out of date. The ones I've seen didn't have a PIC in them. Later Dwight >From: "Claude.W" <claudew(a)videotron.ca> > >Well...newer units use a PIC or similar (probably) and will monitor currents >and will attempt a "safer & gentler" restoration/rejuv....and will do >several other tests... > >Claude >http://computer_collector.tripod.com > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" <dwightk.elvey(a)amd.com> >To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 4:53 PM >Subject: Re: Looking for CRT tester/rejuvenator > > >> >From: "Claude.W" <claudew(a)videotron.ca> >> > >> >Hi >> > >> >Looking for a "recent has possible" CRT tester/rejuvenator to do work on >> >several older terminals, monitors and other equip with CRTs I have around >> >here... >> > >> >Borrowing the high $ unit from work is not good for me....Carrying large >> >monitors into work is not practical... >> > >> >Will trade or $s. >> > >> >Claude >> >http://computer_collector.tripod.com >> > >> > >> >> Hi >> They can be tested in place. Most rejuvenators just run the >> filaments at about 1.5X to 2X the voltage while the rest of the >> voltages are at zero. You can do this with a bench power supply. >> Dwight >> >> > >

23 years, 7 months

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ELAN E9C EPROM Programmer

by kbhipp＠yahoo.com

Does anyone have any information as to where I might locate a Manual for an old ELAN EPROM programmer/copier? If anyone has any leads I would appreciate it. Thanks Kevin Hipp __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/

23 years, 7 months

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OT Re: Naming Computers (strategy, and WHY)

by palazzol＠comcast.net

Back in the late 80's I worked in a lab at Michigan State with a dozen or so SunOS Workstations, 2 Sun Fileservers, and a VAX8600 running Ultrix. All the Sun machines had odd, short names: bubo, mala, typh, pock, etc. It turns out the admin had named them all after diseases, but the management thought it was too much, so they all became 4-letter truncated diseases :) The VAX was renamed from sniffles to eecae (an acronym) at the same time. -Frank

23 years, 7 months

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Couple of mystery boards (MDS, Ricoh, ...)

by xds_sigma7＠hotmail.com

Well the nubus kinda cards I would bet money on being QMS laser printer boards, since the 2nd one even visibly says QMS on it... Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband. Join now! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp

23 years, 7 months

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WordCraft for PET with software dongle?

by foo＠siconic.com

Does anyone have WordCraft written by Peter Dowson and Mike Lake (UK) for the PET (crica 1978-1979) that included a "dongle" (software key) that had to be plugged into one of the ports on the back of the PET in order to work? If so, please contact me directly at <sellam(a)vintage.org>. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

23 years, 7 months

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Even stranger classic software

by acme_ent＠bellsouth.net

> From: Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> > > I have the Omm program somewhere, I'm sure. > > What's that? Sellam, you've never encountered (or been a part of) a bunch of chanting hippies? You know, "Aum?" Too young, I guess ;>) Glen 0/0 If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And if not now, when? -- Pirkei Avot

23 years, 7 months

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Radstone Tech?

by jfoust＠threedee.com

I'm trying to help a guy on the electron microscope mailing list. He has a LEO 360FE SEM, with a computer attached built by Radstone Technology, better known for making military and space applications, he says. It saves images on a Panasonic LF-7300 WORM drive, but because he doesn't know the embedded OS, we can't guess at the filesystem on the MO. Any ideas? - John

23 years, 7 months

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Even stranger classic software

by acme_ent＠bellsouth.net

> From: John Lawson <jpl15(a)panix.com> > In the late 70s I remember seeing a tiny little ad in the back sections > of Byte for a program for Passover. > > You plopped your Apple ][ down on the table next to the Charoses and > roast lamb and wine - and the damn thing stepped you thru the Seder, > songs and all. ARRGH! It is NOT kosher to have an electrical appliance on the Seder table! Glen 0/0 If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And if not now, when? -- Pirkei Avot

23 years, 7 months

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Naming Computers [was: A Momentous Decision]

by xds_sigma7＠hotmail.com

Just think, since some of those are subs, (Thresher I know is, I believe Scorpion is as well), why not name one machine DICASS? For those not in the know, thats the AN/SSQ-62B Directional Command Activated Sonobuoy System... And yes, the Navy really *does* call it DICASS... They're death to subs, usually lead to a direct ping by a dipping sonar, and then the helicopter crew shouts "weapon away!" and you get torpedoed/depth-charged/all of the above! Will J _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

23 years, 7 months

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TRS-80 Model 6000 Keyboard

by univac2＠earthlink.net

Well, just days after my post regarding XENIX for the Tandy 6000, its keyboard seems to have gotten some ideas from Jeff's post on TRS-80 keyboard problems. The 'D' key has taken sick. Every other key on the board works flawlessly. But simply in the course of normal use, the 'D' key has stopped working. I've "fixed" it to the best of my ability, but the problem obviously goes beyond that. Now, that one key in itself wouldn't be so bad, except that in order to get to the login prompt in XENIX, you have to type CTRL-D. Which puts my 6000 in the very large paperweight category at the moment. So my question is - Does anyone have a spare 6000 keyboard lying around, or know where I might go about looking for one? I have enough systems lying around waiting for parts to complete them, and I really don't want this one to join them. Thanks. -- Owen Robertson

23 years, 7 months

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Couple of mystery boards (MDS, Ricoh, ...)

by owad＠applefritter.com

I've taken photographs of a couple of interesting looking but unknown boards I've been setting aside and am curious if anyone can identify them. The following boards are from 1975 and are all labeled "MDS-100x", where 'x' is between 1 and 8. My Google searching was unable to find anything that looked relevant. <http://www.applefritter.com/temp/boards/mds/1.jpg> has a couple of 6821's <http://www.applefritter.com/temp/boards/mds/2.jpg> <http://www.applefritter.com/temp/boards/mds/3.jpg> is just about all TTL The second two of these cards have a connector that looks like Nubus but is missing the middle row of pins. Are these for a laser printer? <http://www.applefritter.com/temp/boards/seminubus/1.jpg> <http://www.applefritter.com/temp/boards/seminubus/2.jpg> has a 68000 processor and RAM. <http://www.applefritter.com/temp/boards/seminubus/3.jpg> is labeled Ricoh Engine Driver Another one that looked interesting. I have no idea what this is from. <http://www.applefritter.com/temp/boards/1.jpg> Thanks. Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com

23 years, 7 months

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More Heathkit H8 Questions

by chris＠blackwidowguitars.com

Well I've been messing with my H8 some... I did get a program to work that I entered into the keypad on the front. Now I would like to take the next step and see if some of the other stuff works... This machine has the H8-5 serial/ tape combo - I have the cable that connects the funny Molex connector to the terminal & have a nice terminal hooked to it. I also have in there what I believe to be the floppy controller - but I have no cables or drives. I am assuming that this machine must be "told" via the front panel to boot >from a tape or disk before I ever get anything on the terminal? Is this correct? If this is true - what do I need to get this thing up and running? Will this thing boot from tape? Is that the easiest option for starters? I am not having much luck locating information or parts online for this beast... Also I'm wondering if the floppy drives are just a standard old 360k drive & some sort of standard cabling that I might be able to round up? If so how hard will it be to find bootable media? Lots of questions! Thanks in advance Chris Lamrock

23 years, 7 months

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Classic kitchen computer products?

by classiccmp＠crash.com

> I remember an magazine add for a TRS-80 (Model 1) in the mid-70's > with it in a kitchen, 'storing recipies'. Wish I had kept it. I've been reading Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer lately. He's got a reprint of the photo from a TRS-80 Model I ad where a guy is using it on the kitchen table, copying some thing down on a pad and looking vaguely crazed with a cup of coffee. A woman stands in the background behind the kitchen counter, findling a bowl of snacks or fruit and gazing fondly at the gent in the foreground - as if proud the her man is finally able to purchase an use a microcomputer. Page 171. --Steve.

23 years, 7 months

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Wired story on VCF 5.0

by foo＠siconic.com

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,55949,00.html Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

23 years, 7 months

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VCF Stuff For Sale

by marvin＠rain.org

In the interest of getting rid of stuff, the list below is some of the stuff I will be bringing to VCF. I'll be adding to it as the stuff gets loaded into the van. The pricing is OBO but I probably won't be very flexible on just one item :). At this point, I have zero interest in shipping anything, so this is info for those of you who will be attending. Misc. For Sale 1. $5.00 Apollo Keyboard/Mouse 2. $10.00 Arnet Boards, cables, etc. No Software Untested 3. $25.00 Atari 850 Interface w/ Power Supply 4. $25.00 Commodore Monitor 1701 5. $5.00 Commodore 1541 disk drives 6. $4.00 Commodore C-64 Power Supplies 7. $5.00 HP Laserjet II 1 MB Memory Board 8. $3.00 Kensington System Saver - Apple II 9. $3.00 Kensington System Saver - Mac 10. $10.00 Keyword 8000 8" drives & power supply 11. $1.00 Misc. Box - Anything in box for $1.00 ea. 12. $10.00 Multibus Extender Card 13. $20.00 One Box Punch Cards, Globe #39367 14. $10.00 Printer Ribbon Re-Inker 15. $20.00 Vector Graphic Hardware Manuals 16. $20.00 Vector/Godabout S-100 motherboard 17. $5.00 Versatec Interface Board? Books/Magazines for Sale 1. $2.00 Apple II User's Guide, PB 2. $2.00 RCA SK Replacement Catalog, PB 3. $4.00 Information Processing w/ Basic and Telecourse Guide, Bohl, PB 4. $2.00 1985/86 NTE Technical Guide and Cross Reference, PB 5. $2.00 Open Windows V3 for SunOS 4.1.x DeskSet Reference Guide, Sunsoft, PB 6. $4.00 Odyssey, Sculley, HB 7. $2.00 The Personal Computer Book, McWilliams, PB 8. $2.00 Programmmer's Guide to the IBM PC, Norton, PB 9. $2.00 Programmer's Guide to the NeWs Toolkit code Generator, Sunsoft, PB 10. $2.00 Solaris 2.0 System Configuration and Installation Guide, Sunsoft, PB 11. $4.00 High Level Cobol Programming , Weinberg,Kauffman,Wright,Goetz, HB Software for Sale 1. $5.00 MAC Tools, Central Point Software, shrinkwrapped eval.copy 2. $7.00 Microsoft Windows 3.1 (Logitech) 5 1/4 HD diskettes 3. $25.00 One Lot OS/2 Software 4. $5.00 QB/Pro Vol 7 - QB Optimizer, Microhelp 5. $2.00 ea Sun CDs 6. $30.00 Xenix w/AST 4-port serial card, etc. Computers/Terminals For Sale 1. $10.00 ADM 5 terminal, lights up but NT 2. $10.00 Atari 400 3. $15.00 Atari 800 4. $10.00 DEC VT-220 terminal 5. $25.00 Commodore 64 w/1701 Monitor, 1741 Disk Drive, Cassette Drive, Manuals, etc. 6. $10.00 Epson Equity LT Laptop w/manuals, disks, power supply, carrying case, NW 7. $25.00 Epson HX-20 modified w/ bar code scanner 8. $35.00 HP 150 Touchscreen Computer 9. $20.00 IBM convertable computers 10. $5.00 Mac SE, 2FD, Top FD w/insertion problem, no kb/mouse 11. $20.00 Mac SE30, FD/HD, ADB keyboard/mouse, original disks, cloth carrying case 12. $15.00 Mac 512K 13. $15.00 Mac Classic w/ keyboard/mouse 14. $7.00 Sharp PC-4501 Laptop w/ manual, carrying case NW 15. $35.00 Soroc IQ120 16. $5.00 Tandy Coco 1 17. $5.00 Tandy Coco 2 18. $35.00 Tandy/Radio Shack Model 100 19. $10.00 Zenith Z-170 w/ User Manual 20. $10.00 Zenith Z-170 w/ User Manual 21. $25.00 Zenith ZTX-11 Terminal, Unopened in Original Box NW - Not Working NT - Not Tested Game Computers For Sale 1. $15.00 Atari 5100, power supply, game/ps connection box 2. $5.00 Magnavox Odyssey II, power supply, one game cartridge 3. $5.00 Mattel Aquarius (no box)

23 years, 7 months

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Classic kitchen computer products?

by doug_jackson＠citadel.com.au

I remember an magazine add for a TRS-80 (Model 1) in the mid-70's with it in a kitchen, 'storing recipies'. Wish I had kept it. (Btw, a friend of mine scored an 'audry', and as a browser, it really rocks.) Doug Jackson Director, Managed Security Services Citadel Securix +61 (0)2 6290 9011 (Ph) +61 (0)2 6262 6152 (Fax) +61 (0)414 986 878 (Mobile) Web: <www.citadel.com.au> Offices in Melbourne, Sydney, Canberra, Hong Kong, Boston > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Chase [mailto:vaxzilla@jarai.org] > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 1:16 PM > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Subject: Classic kitchen computer products? > > > I'm sure most people on the list are familiar with Honeywell's Kitchen > Computer. And then there are also plenty of more recent attempts to > computerize the kitchen these days: The Electrolux fridge computer, > 3COM's aborted Audrey internet appliance, and a whole range of systems > from South Korea's LG Electronics. > > But what of the intervening years? What was going on during the 1970s > and 1980s to conquer the kitchen with computer technology; either with > software or hardware? I've vague recollections of commercial software > being availble for 80s era microcomputers--things like recipe > databases > software--but I can't come up with any specific examples. > > Does anyone here know of other classic computer kitchen automation > products from bygone decades? > > -brian. > CAUTION - The information in this message may be of a privileged or confidential nature intended only for the use of the addressee or someone authorised to receive the addressee's e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify postmaster(a)citadel.com.au. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of Citadel Securix. Feel free to visit the Citadel Securix website! Click below. http://www.citadel.com.au

23 years, 7 months

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(no subject)

by loedman1＠juno.com

Well I have the manuals and all the related stuff but having been ripped off by the inept operators of eBay, I refuse to acknowledge their existence other than to regularly wish a pox on their first born children Rich From: "Glen Goodwin" <acme_ent(a)bellsouth.net> To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Kaypro 10 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 11:02:25 -0400 Reply-To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Happy hunting. The last one I saw on eBay went for $175, no diskettes, no manuals, just the box. Glen

23 years, 7 months

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Kaypro 10

by acme_ent＠bellsouth.net

Happy hunting. The last one I saw on eBay went for $175, no diskettes, no manuals, just the box. Glen 0/0 ---------- > From: loedman1(a)juno.com > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Subject: Kaypro 10 > Date: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 7:18 PM > > Looking for a Kaypro 10 with CP/M 2.2 OS. Drives must be in good shape > > Rich Stephenson > loedman1(a)juno.com If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And if not now, when? -- Pirkei Avot

23 years, 7 months

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good book on Pascal

by dwightk.elvey＠amd.com

Hi I'm looking for a good reference book on Pascal. I'm looking for something in the 1982 to 1985 time range. The Pascal, I have, is said to be MS-Pascal. I didn't know that they did a Pascal but it may have been someone elses that they OEM'd. I don't think it is Turbo Pascal so don't suggest your favorite TP book. Of course, it isn't on a x86 machine so there may be differences. I am mostly interested in the kind of things one would normally find in the object library that one would use with this compiler. They mention that it is a shared library with MS-FORTRAN. Information on FORTRAN libraries might also be useful. Thanks Dwight

23 years, 7 months

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[OT] paper on Retro ?

by eric＠brouhaha.com

> While we're on the subject, did anyone see the article "Data > Extinction" in the October 2002 issue of Technology Review? Yeah, but I was somewhat disappointed. The cover made it sound like they would discuss *media* that would last a long time, but they were just talking about maintaining the ability for software to handle the data. That's obviously worthwhile, but it's also much easier to figure out: 1) Use industry-standard data formats, not proprietary formats 2) Use text-based formats where possible rather than binary formats 3) Keep a specification for the format along with that data, ideally on the same physical medium 4) Keep the source code for the software that processes the data, ideally on the same physical medium. Ideally use software written in a programming language that is widely used, not something obscure. 5) Keep the tools used to build the binary of the software. etc. On the media side, though, AFAIK there is only one high-density machine-readable media that can be expected with any confidence to last much more than 20 years. That is CD-R with a gold-coated substrate rather than silver or aluminum. Note that gold-tinted dye is NOT sufficient. The main failure mechanism for CD-Rs is oxidation of the reflective layer, and a gold layer won't do that, so then your limit is based on other physical processes that occur even more slowly. Kodak's accelerated aging tests indicated a typical life of several hundred years, so they conservatively claimed one hundred. They used to have a white paper on their web site. However, almost everyone that made gold CD-R media (including Kodak) has abandoned it. Mitsui appears to still offer it. Of course, it's more expensive than the cheap stuff by a factor of two or more. Kodak came up with a "marketing breakthrough" in offering discs with a blend of silver and gold. They claim these to be better than silver only discs, though not as good as gold-only. I am very dubious that these mixed discs will actually hold up better than silver-only, since there's not actually enough gold to be sufficiently reflective if all of the silver oxidizes. But I don't really understand the chemistry of it, so perhaps somehow the mix keeps the silver from oxidizing as quickly? I speculate, but have *no* evidence, that gold CD-RW media might last even longer than gold CD-R media. This is because it takes a higher energy level to cause a phase change in CD-RW media. If you need to archive data with any media with a limited lifetime (which means any media at all), you have several potential problems. You need to recopy the media before it fails, and you need to make sure that you don't introduce any errors in replication. The longer the lifetime of the original media, the less of a problem this will be. When you do recopy the media, you'll probably want (or need) to copy it onto a different, more modern medium. One of the things people have worried about is how long CD-ROM drives will exist. I believe that twenty-five years from now it will not be difficult to find a working drive that can read CD-ROMs, but that in fifty nears it will be somewhat difficult. However, one advantage of the CD format is that it was designed to be so simple that a microprocessor is not even necessary in a player or drive. This was a serious design consideration in the late 1970s when Sony and Philips were developing the CD for audio use, though by the time they introduced the first actual products in 1983 the cost of a microprocessor was so low as to make "dumb" CD players impractical. The CD and CD-Audio specifications are widely available. You can't get the official specs without paying some money, but they're in IEC 60908 (CD-Audio) and ISO/IEC 10149 (CD-ROM extension) which are *much* less expensive than buying the Red Book and Yellow Bookfrom Philips. I believe that building a crude but working CD-ROM drive from scratch would be a reasonable project for a few grad students, so if it is really the case that in 50 or 100 years, no new CD-ROM-compatible drives are commercially available and no old ones still work, it won't be an insurmountable challenge to read CD-Rs. If you want a medium with even better longevity than that, I suggest punched mylar tape. But the density is orders of magnitude worse than for CD-R.

23 years, 7 months

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suggestions for where to post adverts??

by julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk

hi all, back on the list after maybe a three year absence - nice to see the list is still going! anyone know of a good place to post adverts for classic stuff? I'm sure it used to be frowned upon on this list, and probably still is; I've checked the FAQ on www.classiccmp.org and it's missing the whole section on list etiquette though, so I'm none the wiser :-) (rather not use loot, ebay etc. unless I have to as I don't want the machine being turned into a coffee table, beer fridge, ashtray etc. etc.!) cheers Jules __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page >from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com

23 years, 7 months

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OT: Shipping a large, heavy crate

by msspcva＠yahoo.com

As promised, the results of my shipment of a large heavy pallet: The package was picked up on time by the shipping company selected from freightquote.com's list of shippers (I took the cheapest). That was Monday this week. Delivery occurred this morning (Wednesday), it was supposed to take 3 business days so they somewhat beat their estimate. They did NOT call the receiving party prior to showing up, but it turned out OK, and everything arrived in one peice. This was a pallet load of 9 track tapes and weighed in at 712 pounds. -- Frank --- Clayton Frank Helvey <msspcva(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > FWIW: > > I'm in the process of using freightquote.com's > service > to do this very thing. I signed up for my > corporation > but I don't normally ship a large amount of stuff; I > have a bunch of older AS/400 gear I'm trying to sell > off. > > I have a pallet of 650 pounds (U.S.), standard > sized, > quoted to ship from Roanoke to Illionis for $184 > with > 3 day delivery. On Monday I'll find out if the > shipping company (Central Transport International) > will pick it up on time; on Thursday or Friday I'll > find out if it got destroyed enroute (which is what > insurance is for!). > > I'll post an after-action report once I find out how > it went. > > -- Frank > > --- Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> wrote: > > Robert A. Feldman wrote: > > > I need to ship a large, heavy crate (about 30" x > > 12" x 72" and around > > > 200-250 pounds) in the US. What company would > you > > recommend? > > > Please answer off-list, directly to my email. > > > > Actually, please DO answer on-list. This > > information is of general > > interest to many of us. > > > > > > > > > ===== > = M O N T V A L E S O F T W A R E S E R V I C E S > P. C.= > Clayton Frank Helvey, President > Montvale Software Services, P. C. > P.O. Box 840 > Blue Ridge, VA 24064-0840 > Phone: 540.947.5364 Email: msspcva(a)yahoo.com > ============================================================ > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > http://faith.yahoo.com > ===== = M O N T V A L E S O F T W A R E S E R V I C E S P. C.= Clayton Frank Helvey, President Montvale Software Services, P. C. P.O. Box 840 Blue Ridge, VA 24064-0840 Phone: 540.947.5364 Email: msspcva(a)yahoo.com ============================================================ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/

23 years, 7 months

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Tandy XENIX Disks

by univac2＠earthlink.net

Does anyone here have the XENIX and/or XENIX Development System disks for a TRS-80 Model 16/6000? I have a Tandy 6000 that I like a lot, and have been playing around with for a few months, but the XENIX installation seems rather spotty. Some command line utilities seem to be missing and the development tools are missing completely. I suppose the previous user did that to conserve disk space. On a related note - If anyone has a TRS-80 Model 12/16/6000 keyboard suffering from keys that have a lack of bounce, removing the keycap and stretching the spring out a little works wonders. -- Owen Robertson

23 years, 7 months

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OT: Monitor repair

by pat＠purdueriots.com

I've got a rebadged Sony GDM-20E20 and GDM-20D11 that have some issues and was wondering if anyone had technical information about them. The E20 seems to have HV ok, but doesn't display any picture - but it appears to be powered up ok. The D11 won't switch out of powersave mode. If anyone has any info, reply to me off-list Pat -- "This fucking university has shown time and time again that it is completely fucking incompetent when it comes to employing technology" -- Anonymous http://dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2040637020924.gif

23 years, 7 months

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HP 2647A / F Terminal & HP1000

by xds_sigma7＠hotmail.com

Closest I ever came to cables was the hacked-off ends as gold scrap : ( Will J _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

23 years, 7 months

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Morrow Radio Mfg Co. Salem, Or. ? and/or Heathkit Technical Applications Bulletins?

by rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com

Does anyone know anything about this company? Or if it's related to Morrow computers? I found this address on the instruction manual for Morrow convertors. The convertors were super hetrodyne tuners for use for auto radios and would allow the reception of 10-15-20-40-75-80 meter stations. I found this manual in a binder of Heathkit Technical Applications Bulletins dated 1952/1953. I've never even heard of these bulletins before but they look pretty interesting. Does anyone know more about them or when Heathkit stopped printing them? Joe

23 years, 7 months

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HP1000 Card Edge Connectors

by glenslick＠hotmail.com

I think the necessary connector is a dual row 48 contact 0.156" spacing card edge connector. I'll have to see if I can find a source. I think some place like http://www.edac.net would let you specify such a connector, but actually buying some in low quantities might be a different story. -Glen >From: "Will Jennings" <xds_sigma7(a)hotmail.com> >Reply-To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: HP 2647A / F Terminal & HP1000 >Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:52:43 -0600 > >Closest I ever came to cables was the hacked-off ends as gold scrap : ( > >Will J _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp

23 years, 7 months

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DEC wiring colors and the PDP-8/e PSU

by djg＠drs-esg.com

> If anyone happens to have their PSU dismantled > enough to see the back, I need to know which half of the breaker, > white-lead or black-lead, attaches to the lone white wire, and which > one attaches to the red wire (with a companion wire). > Did you look at the pictures on http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8em/pdp8em.shtml ? When I fixed the fuse a while ago I took a bunch of pictures of the inside of the power supply. If you select the large size you get pretty good detail. This is probably the best for what you are needing http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8em/pics/h724inp.shtml?large David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights.

23 years, 7 months

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Classic Computer Question

by Huw.Davies＠kerberos.davies.net.au

OK, this is a long shot but with this group, you never know. I'd like to try to identify the first computer I saw "in the flesh" so to speak. This would have been 1965 or 1966 and it was at Keele University (in the UK). Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I would find this out? I've already tried sending e-mail to the computer centre at Keele a few years ago but didn't get very far. Whatever computer it is has a lot to answer for! Yes, I'm getting old but I was 10 or 11 at the time.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green"

23 years, 7 months

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Educational Computer Corporation ?

by hansp＠aconit.org

Anyone heard of this company, apparently made or OEM'd minicomputers probably in the early 70's. I have a lead on a system and this is the only info I have so far. -- hbp

23 years, 7 months

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HP 2647A / F Terminal & HP1000

by glenslick＠hotmail.com

I do have a 12966A BACI interface in my 2117F, but unfortunately no interface cable for it (or for any of the other interface cards in the system). Anyone have a spare cable for some sort of reasonable deal? -Glen >From: Bob Shannon <bshannon(a)tiac.net> >Reply-To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: HP 2647A / F Terminal >Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:22:21 -0400 > >The HP1000 264x boot rom uses a common BACI board. I have the source code >listing for that >boot rom. > >The protocol is very simple, the HP sends "<escape> e" I beleive, and then >listens to a stream of bytes to be sent in the HP standard BBL format. >This is the same format used for HP paper tapes, so all the software on the >HP2100 archive site can be loaded this way. There is no additional >handshaking for each byte as it is read. > >(its also the format used to distribute HP-IPL/OS) > >This is a quick and easy way to get your 2117F booting. _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp

23 years, 7 months

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Reading floppies under Linux

by eric＠brouhaha.com

After that thread about reading various floppy formats under Linux, and I went to the trouble of packaging up a prerelease of dmklib, releasing it on SourceForge, and announcing it here, I'm somewhat disappointed that no one has downloaded it. I was hoping for some feedback. Sigh.

23 years, 7 months

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HP9100 Calculator

by martin.kaeser＠auge.de

Hi all, i bought a HP 9100 A calculator and need some advice. According to the owner, the power supply hummed and the backlighting came one - nothing on the screen, though. I think i should test the power supply and the tube first. Any suggestions on where i could test voltages and what i should get? How long would the screen take to light up? If the calculator is stuck in a loop, would there be a display at all? Would pulling the logic cards first be a good idea? Thanks for advice, Martin

23 years, 7 months

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Naming Computers [ was: Re: A Momentous Decision ]

by carlos_murillo＠epm.net.co

I started with mountain names (heck, everyone does, but then I *really* like some mountains). But I tried to use original names whenever possible (citlaltepetl, popocatepetl, iztaccihuatl, jimulco). Then I followed with aztec deities (coyolxhauqui, chimalpopoca, tezcatlipoca, huitzilopochtli...). Nahuatl language is just great for naming hosts. Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo(a)nospammers.ieee.org

23 years, 7 months

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Computer names Re: A Momentous Decision

by mtapley＠swri.edu

>Just out of curiousity, how many other people here name their classic >computers (for reasons other than giving them a network address) Once I've worked with a computer enough, I name it. Classic or not. That probably contributes heavily to my resistance to replacing them with newer models. - Mark

23 years, 7 months

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Someone was looking for a Packard Bell power supply

by cb＠mythtech.net

A while back I was talking with someone from this list about a Packard Bell power supply they were looking for. We decided that the one I had wasn't the right one... but just a few minutes ago, I stripped a Packard Bell 486, and have its power supply. So whoever that was, if you are still in need of one, email me, and we'll see if this one fits your case. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 7 months

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DEC wiring colors and the PDP-8/e PSU

by erd_6502＠yahoo.com

I think I have repaired the circuit breaker in my PDP-8/e, but in my efforts to reassemble the dismantled breaker, I am concerned that I might have swapped the hot and return wires (black and white) from the mains plug. For internal AC wiring, I have seen in this power supply and others (of the -8/i and -8/L vintage, among others) white and red wires. Is it white-to-white, black-to-red? The problem with my breaker turned out to be curable by tightening up the pivot points of the double-jointed contact-throw mechanism. The design, it seems, depends on the back-pressure of the movable contact into the fixed. One breaker stayed extended, while the other collapsed before the throw was complete. As there is a linkage that trips both at once, that's all it took. I think there was excessive side-play that meant the weaker breaker couldn't stand the pressure at the main joint and it popped. Before disassembling it, the symptom had been that I could reset the breaker dozens of times in a row and never have it stick. Now, it seems quite mechanically reliable. Haven't applied power yet, for obvious reasons. Thanks for any tips. If anyone happens to have their PSU dismantled enough to see the back, I need to know which half of the breaker, white-lead or black-lead, attaches to the lone white wire, and which one attaches to the red wire (with a companion wire). Thanks, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/

23 years, 7 months

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Favorite terminal

by emu＠ecubics.com

Hi, what is THE favorite terminal you folks here use ? Now I have all this nice VTxxx I ever wanted, but they always miss the graphics capabilities, I had on my terminals in the office. (not talking about GUIs, just few nice lines on the screen) So, is there something like emulating VTxxx (52,100,200,320,340) and tektronix ? (probably even 38400 baud ? I really like to talk about terminals, not software for PC's emulating those ... cheers & thanks

23 years, 7 months

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Kaypro 10

by loedman1＠juno.com

Looking for a Kaypro 10 with CP/M 2.2 OS. Drives must be in good shape Rich Stephenson loedman1(a)juno.com

23 years, 7 months

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Troll on imsai.net?

by Lee.Davison＠merlincommunications.com

> Second, I think that the 8" disk would be marked "SSDD", not "Single > Sided Double Density", but I really haven't seen enough 8" disks to > firmly decide that. Oops #1. Got a stack of BASF 8" disks here. The label says .. BASF Single Sided Double Density Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________

23 years, 7 months

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Fwd: [geeks] [david@aulis.demon.co.uk: Re: PDP 11/84]

by geoffr＠zipcon.net

>Free PDP 11/84 for rescue in the UK. > >Please contact David directly if you're in the UK and can rescue this >machine.. Also, can someone who is on classiccmp forward this to that >list as well? > >thanks. > >Bill > >----- Forwarded message from David Warden <david(a)aulis.demon.co.uk> ----- > >Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:59:44 +0100 >From: David Warden <david(a)aulis.demon.co.uk> >To: mrbill(a)mrbill.net >Subject: Re: PDP 11/84 >Cc: david(a)aulis.demon.co.uk > >Bill, > >Thanks for your prompt reply. > >Please do forward my details to your contacts in the UK. I look forward to >hearing from them. > >Its great to get such a positive response. I have been trying on and off for >about a year to find a new home for this machine as I really do need the >space. I've always thought it was too good for scrap which was why I >saved it in the first place. > >Its in two DEC cabinets each 40in high x 20in wide x 30in deep. Once I've >dug it out from under three years accumulated clutter I can send further >details and/or pictures to anyone who is interested. It spent most of its >life in a climate-controlled equipment room at the hospital and I've >kept it in the house since so it is in quite clean condition. > >Once again, thanks for your help. > >Best Regards, > >David. > >--- > >David, > >With your permission, I'll forward this to a group of people who collect >and rescue such machines from the skip and give them a good home. I'd take >it myself, if I wasnt thousands of miles away. 8-) > >Let me know, and I'll forward this and have people contact you directly. > >Bill > >On Mon, Oct 21, 2002 at 10:50:45PM +0100, David Warden wrote: > > Dear Sir, > > I am trying to find a good home for a DEC PDP 11/84 mini computer > (circa 1986 > > vintage) which I salvaged in 1997 and whose space I now need. > > The working (when last powered up in 1999) system comprises the following > > main components: > > 11X84-BB > > TU80-CB > > RA81-AD > > and boots DSM 11 version 4.1. > > It was in use until 1997 running a laborartory system at a district > > general hospital. Since then it has been stored in the study at my > house in > > Gloucestershire, England. > > I am keen that this system should go to someone who will appreciate it > > and not just strip it for spares or try to sell it. If you have any > > bona fide contacts in the South West of England who might be interested > then > > I would be grateful if you could forward my e-mail details on to them. > > I do not want to advertise on the web or in the news groups since I don't > > want to get spam for everafter and want to be sure that anyone I deal > with is > > genuine. > > Thanks in anticipation of your help. > > Yours faithfully, > > David Warden > >----- End forwarded message ----- >_______________________________________________ >GEEKS: http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/geeks

23 years, 7 months

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free kit in UK. PDP 11/84

by geoffr＠zipcon.net

Free PDP 11/84 for rescue in the UK. Please contact David directly if you're in the UK and can rescue this machine.. Also, can someone who is on classiccmp forward this to that list as well? thanks. Bill ----- Forwarded message from David Warden <david(a)aulis.demon.co.uk> ----- Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:59:44 +0100 From: David Warden <david(a)aulis.demon.co.uk> To: mrbill(a)mrbill.net Subject: Re: PDP 11/84 Cc: david(a)aulis.demon.co.uk Bill, Thanks for your prompt reply. Please do forward my details to your contacts in the UK. I look forward to hearing from them. Its great to get such a positive response. I have been trying on and off for about a year to find a new home for this machine as I really do need the space. I've always thought it was too good for scrap which was why I saved it in the first place. Its in two DEC cabinets each 40in high x 20in wide x 30in deep. Once I've dug it out from under three years accumulated clutter I can send further details and/or pictures to anyone who is interested. It spent most of its life in a climate-controlled equipment room at the hospital and I've kept it in the house since so it is in quite clean condition. Once again, thanks for your help. Best Regards, David. --- David, With your permission, I'll forward this to a group of people who collect and rescue such machines from the skip and give them a good home. I'd take it myself, if I wasnt thousands of miles away. 8-) Let me know, and I'll forward this and have people contact you directly. Bill On Mon, Oct 21, 2002 at 10:50:45PM +0100, David Warden wrote: > Dear Sir, > I am trying to find a good home for a DEC PDP 11/84 mini computer (circa 1986 > vintage) which I salvaged in 1997 and whose space I now need. > The working (when last powered up in 1999) system comprises the following > main components: > 11X84-BB > TU80-CB > RA81-AD > and boots DSM 11 version 4.1. > It was in use until 1997 running a laborartory system at a district > general hospital. Since then it has been stored in the study at my house in > Gloucestershire, England. > I am keen that this system should go to someone who will appreciate it > and not just strip it for spares or try to sell it. If you have any > bona fide contacts in the South West of England who might be interested then > I would be grateful if you could forward my e-mail details on to them. > I do not want to advertise on the web or in the news groups since I don't > want to get spam for everafter and want to be sure that anyone I deal with is > genuine. > Thanks in anticipation of your help. > Yours faithfully, > David Warden

23 years, 7 months

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uyk-20? (Count me in!)

by CordaAJ＠NSWC.NAVY.MIL

I _definitely_ want in on a UYK-20 if any become available! Please let me know! -al- > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey Sharp [mailto:jss@subatomix.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 10:34 AM > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: uyk-20? > > > On Friday, October 18, 2002, Joe wrote: > > Excellant suggestion! My father is also interested in > disposing of his > > Teletype systems and they're looking for some of those too > so I might be > > able to load them up. > > Oh boy, you're gonna get a few responses here saying *that*! I need a > Teletype for my PDP-11/20. And, since I just found out I was > getting hired, > I might actually have money in a month or two. > > How many TTYs do you have, and where are they? > > -- > Jeffrey Sharp >

23 years, 7 months

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CP/M for DEC VT-180?

by classiccmp＠crash.com

I recently gained a Pro-350 and a "Robin" VT-180. I know where I can get various bits of OS for the Pro, but nothing for the Robin. I've checked the two CP/M archive sites I knew about and done a little Googling -- I didn't find anything, though I did see a pointer to Don Maslin and get the impression he may be able to provide disks for some sort of fee. Anybody have a pointer to something on the 'Net? There's nothing like instant gratification, y'know... ;^) Thanks! -- Ob. Tick quote: The morning sun rises to greet him, and in its low warm light he stands like some sort of... of Pagan God or... deposed tyrant, staring out over the city he's sworn to ... to stare out over. And its evident just by looking at him that he's got some pret-ty heavy things on his mind. -- The Tick, "The Tick vs. Dinosaur Neil" --Steve. Steve Jones ...!uunet!crash.com!smj Arlington, Mass. CRASH!! Computing (any spambots parse bang paths?) +1 781 MID BYTE "Chaos will ensue if the variable i is altered..." - SysV Programmers Guide

23 years, 7 months

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Naming Computers

by classiccmp＠crash.com

Well, I grabbed the domain crash.com in the Great Internet Domain Name Land Grab of the early 90's. So when I'm naming machines, I have an overpowering urge to use Unix signal names. The firewall was Segv [.11], is now Hup [.1]; desktops have been Buserr [.10] and Abort [.6]; web server is Fpe [.8]; main file- server had to be Io [.23]. The higher numbered signals tend to vary from one Unix flavor to another, unfortunately... This only applies to working machines; collection machines are liable to get boring names like different deities, different pantheon per manufacturer. I know, I know, how predictable... In a previous life as IT guy for a smallish ISV desktop machines were named with input from the user, if they seemed likely to have a good idea or insisted. Lab machines would typically be named by vendor and sequence, as they were rotated/replaced on something like a 12-18 month cycle. The two fileservers I put together (to get them to stop cross-mounting everything!) got named Inode and Vnode... External FTP server got named Beyond, as I recall. When we brought in a big team of developers and ordered their machines on short notice, I went with another common theme: T lines and stops (that's "subway" to those not in Boston ;^) Servers became Redline, Greenline, etc. Machines became stops on these lines (Alewife, Copley, Kenmore, Lechmere, etc). The original plan had been stops for servers and nearby streets for nodes, but we were rushed... The name I'm still most fond of is the first machine I was allowed to name. I started working in the VAX Resource Center at MIT back in '89 and was handed a VAXstation II, some TK50's and books, and told to learn VMS from a system managers point of view (I'd been a user for a couple years). Since I was and am a big fan of Buckaroo Banzai I called it Yoyodyne.mit.edu (and YOYO::), and after I finished my VMS lessons it got reloaded with Ultrix 3.x/UWS 2.x. I got a lot of complements on the name; several people tried to tell me something about this Thomas Pynchon guy, but I was more interested in reading things by Henry Spencer or Rob Pike... ;^) Ob. Tick quote: DO NOT: 1. Eat in Lab 2. Set Lab on Fire 3. Innovate Unnecessarily -- Sign in Dinosaur Neil's Tent "The Tick vs. Dinosaur Neil" --Steve. Steve Jones ...!uunet!crash.com!smj Arlington, Mass. CRASH!! Computing (any spambots parse bang paths?) +1 781 MID BYTE "Chaos will ensue if the variable i is altered..." - SysV Programmers Guide

23 years, 8 months

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cp/m favorite?

by r_beaudry＠hotmail.com

>I am curious what your favorite cp/m system might be. I am getting an itch >for some late-70/early-80/pre-msdos kind of box. Well, - For portability, I like the Osborne 1. I had a Kaypro 4 '84, and I admit the larger screen was nice, but for 'cool factor', I just like the Osborne. - For a desktop/all-in-one, the Televideo TS-803 is my pick. The graphics capabilities are quite nice, and the screen is large for an all-in-one. Also a nice large clicky keyboard. Wish I had the 803-H, though (built-in hard drive) :-(. I do also have a Xerox 820-II (a fine machine), but I like the style of the Televideo case better (not as industrial looking), and the Xerox drives are external, so they just don't look as nice :-) - For taking up rack/desk space, I have a CompuPro S-100 system -- Dual CPU (Z80H and 80286), a separate box containing dual 8" floppies (Qumetrak 842 SS/DS, SD/DD), and a separate box containing dual 5.25" 96tpi floppies and a 40 MB Hard Drive. All of this drives a pristine Heath H-19 terminal with a sweet graphics board. This is definitely my favorite overall system... - For a system that runs CP/M that wasn't designed to run CP/M :-), I like my Platinum Apple IIe w/ Microsoft SoftCard. I had a C-64 w/ the CP/M cartridge, and I also had a C-128 (which really was designed to run CP/M), but the IIe appeals to me. Especially the Microsoft CP/M card :-) (from back when they made good products :-)) Rich B. _________________________________________________________________ Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband. Join now! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp

23 years, 8 months

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cp/m favorite?

by Robert_Feldman＠jdedwards.com

I remember hearing the Osborne likened to a VW, the Kaypro to a Chevy, and the Otrona to a BMW. I had an Osborne and Otrona, while a friend had a Kaypro. Between the Osborne and Kaypro, I'd probably go with the Kaypro now -- larger screen, slightly better graphics (IIRC), but it has a strange disk format that makes copying to other formats more difficult. The Otrona's still the coolest of the three, and if you can get an 8:16, you can easily use it to copy disks to/from IBM PC 360KB format. Desktop CP/M machines (as opposed to luggables) are a different subject, of which I have little knowledge. Always heard good things about Epsons, except that they often went down strange proprietary paths and never got much market share. Bob -----Original Message----- From: J.C. Wren [mailto:jcwren@jcwren.com] Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 8:44 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Subject: RE: cp/m favorite? And the ever popular Otrona, which I personally consider a little nicer than the Kaypros. However, for sheer cool, nothing beat the IMSAI. One day, I will have space to light mine up again. Living on a houseboat is great, but sometimes the space issue is a little frusterating. Like there's no room for a PDP/11 here... --John gil smith wrote: > Hi folks: > > I am curious what your favorite cp/m system might be. I am getting an itch > for some late-70/early-80/pre-msdos kind of box. Of the transportables, I > recall working with a kaypro years ago that seemed decent,

23 years, 8 months

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OT: Monitor repair

by Lee.Davison＠merlincommunications.com

> Me, too. I have a GDM-20E20 that's gotten all fuzzy (not > convergence - it's achromatic). Love to know what I can > tweak. Focus. It should be on the line output transformer. Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________

23 years, 8 months

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Les Solomon passed away this weekend

by r_beaudry＠hotmail.com

I saw this in comp.os.cpm, but didn't see it here, so for those who don't read that group, Les Solomon passed away this weekend at the age of 80. More details from Stan Veit on http://www.imsai.net/ ... I did not know Les, but he definitely led an interesting life, and I know he was well-respected and cared about ... :-( Rich B. _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp

23 years, 8 months

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