The ongoing thread about the origins of C and UNIX have made me
wonder about something I was told years ago:
"UNIX was written as a host platform for C *development* and was not
originally envisioned as the production platform for applications
developed on it."
In other words, the intent was that developers would write code on
UNIX, then port it to an "application-oriented" OS for production.
Is there any truth to that?
Doc
On 10/16/2011 12:32 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 15 Oct 2011 at 22:51, Eric Smith wrote:
>
>> Yes. All C types, except bitfields within a structure, must have
>> sizes that are a multiple of the size of the char type.
>
> Wasn't it presumptuous of K&R to assume that the smallest native
> datum was a char? At the time the spec was being written, there did
> exist bit-addressable machines, so directly-addressed bit arrays were
> certainly possible on some hardware.
Not just bit-aligned data: some processors from that same broad era (e.g. iAPX432) didn't even require that instructions be byte or word aligned.
I think the point folks are missing is that it isn't the processor that defines the standard data types, but the language.
I used to be more condescending towards the attitude that the-whole-world-is-a-stream-of-bytes (having worked with many I/O devices and languages and computers that had far more evolved record concepts) but here i am in 2011 and if I can coerce anything into a stream of bytes - I've got a lot of tools for working with that.
Tim.
I think Free Pascal is self-hosting. Is that right, Gene?
------Original Message------
From: ben
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died
Sent: 17 Oct 2011 16:58
On 10/17/2011 7:22 AM, Gene Buckle wrote:
>
> If you don't want to use C/C++, you can't beat FreePascal & Lazarus.
But what are they written in?
> g.
>
On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 13:42:15 -0500, "Michael B. Brutman"
<mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com> wrote:
> Please, enough of the self-righteousness that always seems to highlight
> your purist tendencies, including the ability to construct transistors
> from raw materials and simple hand tools. We know where you stand already.
I would hardly call Tony self-righteous. He does have strong opinions
and lives by his convictions, but I have always got the clear impression
that he accepts other people's right to do as they please with their own
stuff. He will try to convince you that you should reconsider, if you
propose doing something which he thinks is wrong, however I don't think
that the connotation
"especiallywhensmuglymoralisticandintolerantoftheopinionsandbehaviorofothers"
of the word "self-righteous" (from dictionary.com) applies. Being
intolerant is not the same as disagreeing and trying to convince people
they are wrong. Intolerance implies refusing other people the right to
their opinions.
Irony does not always go down well either, unfortunately.
/Jonas
Thanks, good stuff!
------Original Message------
From: Ray Arachelian
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died
Sent: 17 Oct 2011 19:53
On 10/17/2011 03:43 PM, Vintage Coder wrote:
> Even I could appreciate that (except for the verse about assembler, which I find easier to debug than anything else).
>
>
Hey, I didn't write those verse, I only shared them. :)
eBay # 120788797213
The guy makes wiredforservice look like a piker. *laughs*
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
VINTAGE (I HOPE) WIN 98 QUES, WHEN I BRING UP WIN 98 A BOX COMES UP FOR ME TO ENTER A NETWORK PASSWORD AND HANGS THERE, HOW CAN I BYPASS THIS SO IT GOES ON TO THE DESKTOP DIRECTLY? ?THANKS ?BOB
This may be a bit off-topic, although the instrumetn in question is
certainly well over 10 years old, it includes a classic microprocessor
(68B09, along with a a 6829 MMU, I've never seen one before), and is
certainly suitable for repairing classic computers...
Anyway, I've been given a really nice toy -- an HP1530D Logic Analyser.
The -D model ahs 16 timing channels (which can be confgured in blocks of
8 as state channels) and a further 27 state channels. HP got a lot right
in the design of this instrument -- the fact that the pods can only be
disconnected after rmeoving a cover plate means that the pods are unlikely
to get spearated from the unit and lost, for example.
Anyway, given it's a -D (and not a -G), is there anyting I should know
about it? Any fun tricks that are not immediately obvious from the
manuals (I don't have these on paper :-(, I've been looking at the ones
vey kindly provided o nthe Agilent web site)
-tony
Hi Al,
Do you happen to have copies of the following IBM doc available? This is
all I/O related, not sure if it's from the 370 days or later.
MVS/ESA Component Diagnosis and Logic: EXCP Processor (LY28-1477)
LY28-1487
LY28-1488
LC28-1166-5
I noticed you've added a bunch of great IBM doc recently in addition to all
the other great IBM doc you have been hosting. THANK YOU for your site and
all the great work you are doing!
>> How, exactly, is running something in a web browser "more versatile"
>> than running a purpose-built app with a GUI? WTF?
To me a "purpose built app with a GUI" is the very definition of "vendor lock-in" and "A PC for every function".
To me "vendor lock-in" means "look you have the versatility of running it on this one PC with a mouse and a keyboard and if you want to do it any other way you can pay us for as many copies as you want!".
Whereas a web interface means that the display terminal and application server are now decoupled with a strong implication of scalability up the wazoo. (I know, it's all too easy to make it unscalable, or to embed Windows Controls in a web application and tie the browser to a specific Windows build.) It also implies that multiple applications are accessible simultaneously just by opening more browser windows - and means you don't have to swap 10,000 PC's every time you upgrade the central server.
To me a web interface is way preferable to say a 3270 for filling forms. I know, the hot-shot mainframe app people had some pretty slick user interfaces on the 3270's for some popular mainframe applications. I've seen good ones and I appreciate them. But the vast majority of 3270 user interfaces sucked rocks. I'm not saying there aren't some really sucky webpages out there but custom roll-your-own-GUI-inside-the-web-page design seems to be very much on the decline, thank god.
Tim.
Anyone have an image of the Netkit for Decnet-11m+ v4.0 on tk50? I?ve got
the Deckit, just need the other one to get ethernet up on my Micro PDP-11.
Richard Lynch
PS2Encoder
(http://www.go4retro.com/2011/03/11/micro-project-ps2encoder/) PCBs have
arrived.
I had planned to offer as just a PCB and a kit option, but if folks are
interested in an assembled version, I'd like to know. It looks like the
PCB is $5.00, a PCB + a AVR + the minidin6 = $16.00, and a complete kit
is $21.00. An assembled unit looks to add ~ 5.00 to the price.
Please let me know if you have any interest in any of the options.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.comwww.jbrain.com
At 08:46 PM 10/12/2011, you wrote:
>hey
>Im getting a used lj 4000tn off a friend of mine soon and i want to be ready
>is the parallel port on the back a standard ieee 1284 or a hpcn36 mini
>centronics
>gotta make sure i have the right adaper cable to usb because my newer amd xp
>comp does not have a pp port
>thanx
>chris
The N in the 4000TN is for "network." Use Ethernet-- is much more better.
439 . [Humor] I like this new idea of voodoo
acupuncture. You don't have to go anywhere, you
just walk down the street, and all of a sudden, "Ah!" --Steven Wright
NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio)
"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK
43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc
LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician
? Registered Linux User 385531
Tom and the other Caltechies spoke many times of his 300SL but I had never seen it until now.
I had however seen and helped move Tom's -11's many many times back and forth and around Pasadena :-).
Somehow I knew, just seeing the subject line, that this would be about Tom's 300SL.
Tim.
>Message: 5
>Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 11:00:02 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com>
>On Wed, 12 Oct 2011, Doc Shipley wrote:
>
>> On 10/11/11 4:24 PM, Gene Buckle wrote:
>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote:
>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dave McGuire
>>>> New Kensington, PA
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>> Is that where those awesome trackballs are born? :)
>>
>>
>> ?No, I believe Logitech is based in Washington State.
>>
>*snort* ?I've YET to see a trackball from Logitech that wouldn't be better
>used as sling-shot ammo. :) ?They do make great mice though. :)
>
>g.
>
Get one of these: 2-1/4" Trackball with USB and PS/2 Interface, from Suzo-Happ ( http://na.suzohapp.com/trackballs/565600xx.htm ) and a couple of pushbuttons ( http://na.suzohapp.com/pushbuttons/539200xx.htm ) and build a case for the parts. These trackballs and pushbuttons are made for arcade game consoles and are super-rugged. I used them in exhibits at the Field Museum in Chicago and used one at work for 10+ years without any problems. The track balls are not cheap ($183), but are rock-solid.
Bob
HP 7980 Tape drive in a cabinet
Looks to be in good shape.
Desc: "Turns on. cabinet locked"
Located in Tumwater WA
currently with 1 bidder at *$9.99*
PublicSurplus.com item no: 624353
Hey all!
I recently followed up on a 4 year old comp.os.vms posting about the DEC
InfoServer Local Area Disks protocol and in the process I managed to get
a copy of the spec as well as a couple of other related ones.
How would I submit these pdfs to bitsavers so they don't get lost to
time?
Thanks!
Brian
hey
Im getting a used lj 4000tn off a friend of mine soon and i want to be ready
is the parallel port on the back a standard ieee 1284 or a hpcn36 mini
centronics
gotta make sure i have the right adaper cable to usb because my newer amd xp
comp does not have a pp port
thanx
chris
On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:37:49 -0700, Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com> wrote:
> Tony Duell wrote about the HP 1630 logic analyzer:
> > the fact that the pods can only be
> > disconnected after rmeoving a cover plate means that the pods are
> unlikely
> > to get spearated from the unit and lost, for example.
>
> Nope. You underestimate how determined resellers are to destroy the
> value of what they're reselling. I don't know why they do it. These do
> in fact show up routinely without pods.
Because they think they can make more money by selling the pods
separately? It happens with old cameras as well, the camera is sold
without its special take-up spool, which is sold separately for as much
as the camera itself. And with cars, sell an old car in parts and you
will get much more for it than if you sell it intact.
/Jonas
>> The Mac Plus _did_ have an Apple-designed interface: The ADB port.
>> However, as usual, this was thoroughly documented on the hardware and
>> software side, and many third party peripherals were built. Ditto
>> Appletalk serial - fully documented and specified, many third party
>> peripherals.
> where are they now?
Kinda like asking "where is 20 mA current loop now?"
They were proprietary in their origins but with open documentation and set a very good standard for how to implement desktop interfaces "right".
ADB's concepts are strong and alive in USB.
Appletalk's concepts are strong and alive in Ethernet. (I know, Ethernet predates Appletalk.)
Tim.