At 06:08 PM 7/1/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I just acquired a Lisa 2/10 and I'm trying to figure things out.
>
>The system starts to boot from the hard drive and comes up with a
>MacWorks/Sun Remarketing logo, then asks for a diskette. Looks like
>it's running MacWorks XL, is that correct? The system still has regular
>Lisa H/88 ROMs so it's not messed with hardware-wise.
>
>How come it wants a diskette and won't boot from the HD?
Sounds like the software is not seralized properly and it wants to see the
diskette to validate the software. (the Lisa serialized the software to
the machine on initial load)
>I tried putting in a System 1 diskette from my Mac 128 and it gave me the
>"Welcome to Macintosh" splash and then died with a Sad Mac FE0002.
>
>Do I need a special Mac System version diskette to boot this sucker?
Yep...
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
=============================================================================
ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List
Part 3 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy
Technical FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.6.1
Last Update: 7/01/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available
answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is
Maintained by Bill Whitson <bill(a)booster.u.washington.edu>. The infor-
mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but,
in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain-
ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible
and often failed ;).
This FAQ is Part 3 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented
deals with regularly asked questions which are technical in nature.
If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please
contact me at the address above.
A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://weber.u.
washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27 in the
directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as classiccmp.faq.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Updates: New Sections: 5.1
Updated Sections: 1.2, 2.4, 4.1, 5.1
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. General
------------------
1.1 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do?
1.2 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes?
2. Media
--------
2.1 What's a hard sector disk? What's a soft sector disk?
2.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc.
2.3 Can these formats be interchanged?
2.4 What disk sizes are there?
2.5 How do I take care of old media?
3. Component Failure Issues
---------------------------
3.1 Do EPROM's go bad?
3.2 How about ROM's, other chips?
3.3 How about capacitors?
3.4 Anything else?
3.5 So how do I backup all this stuff like you suggest?
4. Software
-----------
4.1 Where can I get a system disk for platform X?
4.2 What's the best way to back up my software?
5. Specific Problems/Solutions
------------------------------
5.1 Is it possible to bypass an RF modulator to achieve composite output?
=============================================================================
1.1 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do?
Don't power it up yet! All of the following should probably be done
before that power switch gets flipped.
Open the case - clean and visually inspect components. You're
looking for traces of smoke, water, corrosion, loose screws, blown
caps and resistors, cold (broken) solder joints, bent pins, etc. It
may be a good idea to remove and re-seat all socketed components and
connectors. If anything burned or overheated it will probably pay to
replace it before powering up the unit. You can avoid a number of
problems just by taking a peek inside.
If you have the tools (and the machine is sufficiently rare) pull and
dump backups of all EPROMs, ROMs, and PALs. If you have really cool
tools (like a logic analyzer) it has been suggested that you use them
to record critical information from those oh-so-hard-to-find custom
chips. Specific information on how to do this is beyond the scope of
a FAQ, but you probably know what you need to if you own the appropriate
tools.
Disconnect the power supply from the rest of the computer and start it
up on a "dummy load". A six volt headlight bulb has been recommended as
a convenient load. These should be available from any decent Volkswagen
shop. Running the power supply without a load could result in damage to
it. You may want to check the voltage output before you do this as it
could be no where near the 5V average in micros. Even if you don't want
to connect a load it's still probably a good idea to power it up
separately from the computer for the first time. If you have a really
rare beast it may be worth powering up some of the key capacitors out of
circuit just to get them warmed up.
Now you can power it up. Assuming it works, take a blank disk,
format it, write some data to it, and read it back before using your
precious software with it, as a bad disk drive could really ruin your
day.
1.2 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes?
Cases: It seems best to start gently with such old equipment. Try
soaking in a little water and dish soap and then scrubbing. This takes
care of most jobs. For removing stickers try mineral oil or Goo-Gone
(available at most hardware stores - in the US at least). If those
don't work, acetone can be good but, if overused, can do more harm.
For removing marker, almost any solvent is good (alcohol, naptha, etc)
but will definitely discolor or dissolve plastic if not carefully
applied. Lava soap is also good for removing marker but can smooth off
textured plastic. For removing sun or tobacco discoloring a product
called Purple Stuff available from auto parts stores (again, in the US
at least) seems to do the job almost effortlessly.
Recommended commercial products:
Purple Stuff from Kragen [for discoloration]
Brasso [ink/marker] (can discolor plastic)
Antistatic Foam Cleaner from Electrolube [for discoloration/markings]
Citra-Solv [for discoloration] (can dissolve plastic if undiluted)
Cameo Copper Cleaner [ink/marker]
Naptha [for stickers/goop/spooge] (very flammable)
3M GP Adhesive Remover [for stickers/goop/spooge]
CRC 226 / CRC 556 [for stickers/goop/spooge]
Fulcron [for discoloration]
Blue Shower / BS II [for stickers/goop/spooge]
Connectors: For edge connectors a plain pink eraser seems good
for removing corrosion. Apparently other colors of eraser indicate a
different texture - which may be damaging. Make sure to wipe the
connectors with a clean cloth after erasing on them. There are a large
number chemicals on the market that "magically" remove corrosion from
components but as I don't know how safe they are, I'm not anxious to
promote any of them. For pin style connectors a toothbrush and some
softscrub or other mildly abrasive cleaner do wonders.
Recommended commercial products: Electrolube contact cleaning sprays.
Keyboards: I find a cycle through the dishwasher does a really nice
job on keyboards. Just be sure they're completely dry before you
put any power to them. If there is reason not to use a dishwasher
(some key labels can come off) it is usually possible to remove each
keycap and clean conventionally.
[][][][][][][][][][]
2.1 What's a hard sectored disk? What's a soft sectored disk?
We'll start with soft-sector since they're simpler to explain. On a
soft-sector floppy disk the information that marks where a sector
begins and ends is written to the disk by the computer (part of the
formatting process). This means that various computers can use
the same floppy disk types because the format of the disk is control-
led by the operating system.
Hard sector disks use a system of perforations in the media to mark
the beginnings and ends of sectors. This means that computers
which used hard sectored disks required the exact disk type they
specified rather than a generic soft-sector floppy. A number of
differently sectored disks were available - at least 10, 13, and 16
sector formats. 8 inch and 5.25 inch disks commonly used hard
sectoring. 3.5 inch disks never came hard-sectored and, in fact,
it would not be possible.
2.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc.
These all refer to the number of useable sides on a disk and it's
density (how "efficiently" the magnetic bits are pushed together).
SS/SD is a Single Sided - Single Density disk, the earliest available
type I believe. The storage afforded by a single density disk was
very small compared to today's standards. Single Sided disks were
popular because they were cheaper than DS and could be easily
modified with a hole punch into double sided disks. SD was followed
by Double Density which, amazingly, doubled the amount of storage
space. Double Density was followed by the extremely short-lived
Quad Density which doubled a DD disk. QD was short lived because
High Density was right on it's heels and nearly doubled disk capacity
again. DS/HD was as sophisticated as 5.25" disks became. 3.5"
disks have progressed as far as DS/EHD double-sided / extra-high
density.
2.3 Can these formats be interchanged?
Well, that may depend on what computer you are using, but in general
the following substitutions may be made:
Desired Format Substitute
---------------------------------------------------
Single Density Double Density
Double Density none reliably
Quad Density DD, HD (sometimes work, not advisable!)
High Density none
Other substitutions may be made, but due to physical differences in
how the disks are made they are generally unreliable. It can almost
be guaranteed that data written to a proper density disk of poor quality
will last longer than data written to a good quality disk of the wrong
density. In the case of quad density no substitution should be
considered reliable. DD and HD disks both can be forced to work. One
may work better than the other given the peculiarities of various drives.
2.4 What disk sizes are there? Disk Types?
Physically?
Standard Disks Unique/Proprietary Disks
---------------------------------------------------------
8" (Floppy) 5" (MiniFloppy)
5.25" (MiniFloppy) 3.25" (MicroFloppy)
3.5" (MicroFloppy) 3" (MicroFloppy)
2.5"
2"
In addition to odd sizes - there is at least one type of disk which
was physically different. "Twiggy" disks for the Apple Lisa 1 were
regular 5.25" disks with the exception that they had two read/write
windows. One was oriented "north" of the center hole, the other "south".
2.5 How do I take care of old media?
Step one is Back It Up! After that, make sure it's kept in a clean, dry,
temperature-controlled environment (I keep mine in a broken freezer).
With disks it seems important to keep them standing on end rather than
lying flat - the same goes for cassette tapes. I like to exercise disks
and tapes at least once every six months although I have no real
evidence that this has any positive effect. I have modified an old C64
floppy drive to simply spin when a disk is inserted and send large
stacks of disks through it on a regular basis just to make sure they're
not starting to stick up internally.
An exciting and somewhat recent development is that availability of
classic computer emulators that can make disk images of old media
on PC's and Macs. This seems to be a very good way to backup
disks since they will eventually go bad no matter how well we take
care of them.
The official line seems to be that floppy disks have a shelf-life of
approximately 10 years. With proper care many are lasting a lot longer.
[][][][][][][][][][]
3.1 Do EPROM's go bad?
Definitely. They apparently are considered to reliably contain data for
(on the outside edge) 15 years. This amount can be considerably
reduced if, for example, the sticker over the window has dried out and
fallen off. Luckily EPROMs were not used too extensively but they're
out there. An EPROM writer/reader is a relatively cheap investment
and an easy fix. Even if an EPROM has "forgotten" it's data it is still
fine for being "re-educated".
3.2 How about ROMs and other chips?
Things wear out. It's likely that even components which have not been
fried by catastrophic failure will simply start to die someday. ROMs can
be dumped to a file and re-written if they die. Other custom chips which
are all too common in micros will be far more difficult to replace. The
best advice is to stockpile these chips when you can - but someday even
unused chips will probably start to turn up bad. In this case the best
defense is to stockpile information in the hope of being able to modify
an existing component to meet your needs.
3.3 How about capacitors?
This seems to be another large concern, but rather than being an
unreplaceable component a capacitor will take your unreplaceable
components with it when it goes. It's a good idea to check out all the
caps in a system if you haven't fired it up in a while. Caps go bad
with time (even tantalum caps, apparently - although they are more
reliable) and should be replaced if they are suspect. It's unlikely that
it will be impossible to find a replacement capacitor as they are much
more standard electronic components.
3.4 Anything else?
Documentation: If there's anything which is entirely unreplaceable its
the docs for uncommon equipment. Once they're gone, they're gone.
I regularly pick up docs I find for equipment I don't have just because
I may someday. Paper will, of course. go bad over time but it will be
obvious and they will be easily duplicated.
Hard Disks: ST-251s, ST-502s, MFM, RLL... old hard disks are going
to go bad. Then they'll be gone. Theoretically, I suppose it's possible
to crack a hard drive and replace a dead bearing, realign, relaminate,
etc... but I've never heard of anyone doing these things in their base-
ment. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years many of us will be experts at this.
3.5 So, how do I back up all this stuff like you suggest?
This answer will undoubtedly get longer as I learn more. The best ways
seem to be to dump the particular ROM (or whatever) using the approp-
riate equipment to a floppy disk (which most of this equipment allows).
=============================================================================
ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List
Part 2 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy
List Specific FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.6.2
Last Update: 7/01/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available
answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is
Maintained by Bill Whitson <bill(a)booster.u.washington.edu>. The infor-
mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but,
in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain-
ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible
and often failed ;).
This FAQ is Part 2 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented
deals with regular day-to-day issues on the list.
If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please
contact me at the address above.
A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://weber.u.
washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27 in the
directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as classiccmp.faq.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Updates: New Sections: 1.5, 1.7, 2.9, 2.10
Updated Sections: 1.1, 2.3, 2.4, 3.1
Removed: 5.4, 6.1-on
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. About the List
-----------------
1.1 What is ClassicCmp?
1.2 Why is ClassicCmp?
1.3 What's a Classic Computer?
1.4 Who runs this thing?
1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator?
1.6 Don't you know you're duplicating what others have done?
1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list?
2. Protocol and Etiquette
-------------------------
2.1 What can I talk about?
2.2 Can I talk about PCs?
2.3 Can I talk about Mini/MainFrames?
2.4 Can I post advertisements?
2.5 Can I ask people to give me their computers?
2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x?
2.7 Where should I look before posting a dumb question?
2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS?!?
2.9 Can I post trophy lists?
2.10 Can I use obscene languagein my posts?
3. Misc List Information
------------------------
3.1 How many subscribers are there?
3.2 How many subscribers use machine x?
3.3 Is this list archived?
4. ClassicCmp Resources on the Net
----------------------------------
4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a Web Site?
4.2 How come the Web Site is so ugly?
4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP Site?
Collecting
----------
5.1 Where can I find Classic Computers?
5.2 How much is machine x worth?
5.3 Will thousands of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them?
5.4 I don't understand anything. Help!
=============================================================================
1.1 What is ClassicCmp?
It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center
on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place
for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions
dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are
often better handled in private e-mail.
1.2 Why is ClassicCmp?
Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it
seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them.
1.3 What is a Classic Computer?
_Any computer_ that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic.
This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to
work OK, so I've kept it.
1.4 Who runs this thing?
That would be me, Bill Whitson - email bcw(a)u.washington.edu.
1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator?
Sorry. It does often take me several days (sometimes weeks!) to respond
to e-mail. I am often away for days at a time and when I'm not I'm still
probably busy doing real work. I receive more than double the amount of
mail that goes to the list in the form of spam, bounced messages, odd
user requests, general bitching, etc. and I still have to filter out the
messages I actually have to respond to, to remain employed ;). I will get
back to you eventually.
1.6 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done.
I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show
me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large
as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously
there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see
a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing
anyway.
1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list?
The daily load varies widely from about 10 messages to over 100. Average
seems to be about 44 messages a day. There are times where the message
load peaks for as much as a week.
[][][][][][][][][]
2.1 What can I talk about?
Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many
people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might
want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. It's also a
good idea to actually read the FAQs and check the archives a little before
posting.
2.2 Can I talk about PCs?
Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then, be
aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC
newsgroups.
2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames/WorkStations/Gigantic Talking Boxes
with Flashing Lights & Coundown Timers/Robots from Alien Civilizations?
There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for
micros/home computers only. You'll note I said "misconception".
2.4 Can I post advertisements?
Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course,
use your brain - don't spam. Also, please state up-front whether or not
you are willing to ship the items you sell outside your country as there
are members of this list in a number of different countries.
2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers?
Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example,
would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on
usenet who will vouch for this. When someone posts about one of their
machines without offering to sell it - it's really a pretty good bet that
they're not secretly trolling for offers. See section 5 for info on how to
find yourself a computer.
2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x.
Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't
have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic
electronics tools (VOM/DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz
with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking
questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check
the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking
out!" exactly means.
2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question?
It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive
section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below).
2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?!
(Or, in general, be unreasonable with reagard to advocacy posts?)
Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. For that matter, drop
any posts that serve only to perpetuate the holy wars.
2.9 Can I post trophy lists?
Ahem. Er... I'm not going to go to the extent of banning this practise
but it is considered bad manners. Don't whine to me because I used to be
guilty of this and curbed myself ;). Post lists of newly acquired goods
if you actually need info on them, not just to show off.
2.10 Can I use obscene language in my posts?
Yes. Although I'm sure many people would prefer you did not. A number of
people have complained about this. I'm not going to outlaw swearing - now
that I've informed you that it bothers people you can make your choice.
[][][][][][][][][][]
3.1 How many subscribers are there?
Around 180 and changing daily.
3.2 How many subscribers use machine x?
Check the web site (see below). The Classic Computer Encyclopedia shows
the number of machines registered by subscribers.
3.3 Is this list archived?
Yes. The archives are available on the FTP site (see below) in the
directory /pub/classiccmp/archive. The file name format indicates
the month/year of the archive. Keep in mind that they are quite large.
[][][][][][][][][][]
4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a web site?
Yep. http://weber.u.washington.edu/bcw/ccl.html
4.2 How come the web site is so ugly?
How come a PET is so ugly? Who cares as long as it works?
4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP site?
Yes. Anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27. Look in /pub/classiccmp. There's
not much there that's not available on the web site. I'm starting to
load old drivers and system disks on occasion. There is an incoming
directory which subscribers may use for ClassicCmp-related file transfers
if needed.
[][][][][][][][][][]
5.1 Where can I find classic computers?
The best places seem to be thrift stores and swap meets. These are
closely followed by pawn shops and mom and pop computer stores.
The holy grails are electronics scrap yards - but they tend to be wary
of individual pick-and-choosers. Oh yeah - garage sales!
5.2 How much is machine x worth?
Precisely as much as you'll pay for it. Oh, you're selling it? Then,
precisely as much as I'll pay for it. Seriously, no one prices these any
more. I have an old Computer Blue Book that lists many classic
computers but the prices are just ridiculous. Some machines (Apple
Lisa's, old old Mini's, and unreleased prototypes) are starting down
the road toward their original selling prices but it's unlikely that
most will ever be worth more than the cost of their components.
5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them?
Yes. This is the impetus behind every collector's tireless and selfless
effort. Each machine we fail to save has it's gold parts mercilessly
hacked off and sold (just like rhino horns - and look at the rhinos).
The remainder is then sent to China to be made into bicycle spokes (you
probably think I'm joking). Save a computer! Act now! Remind your
SO of the rhino and cuter, fuzzier animals. It might work.
In all seriousness - there are a large (and growing) number of so called
"computer and electronics 'recyclers'" who take usable computers and
recycle them into "reusable scrap". Small amounts of gold, silver, and
platinum are extracted and the remainder of the material is generally
just marketed to less wasteful countries.
5.4 I don't understand anything. Help!
Don't worry - you're not the only one. Reading this list, old magazines,
books and whatever else you can get your hands on is the first step.
Once you reach a critical mass of knowledge thigs get a lot easier.
I'm working on putting together a list of books and tools that a
beginner should get his hands on. If you have suggestions, let me know.
=============================================================================
> I would be most interested in hearing peoples' views on where the
> Bletchley Park computer (i can't remember its name)
I seem to remember it was codenamed "the Bomb", as that was the British
mangling of the Polish word.
DIGIAL network.
> My favorites were MILRAT, and the other two cluster members MILROT and
> MILDEW. They were apt names for vaxen located where straight down
through
> the floor meant you were in the pond.
Reminds me of the spinoffs of SNOBOL -- FASBOL, SPITBOL...
Speaking of names, the best (most descriptive) program name I ever ran
across was the CP/M debugger, DDT.
In message <33B8B786.6F47(a)ndirect.co.uk> classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu writes:
> Tony Duell wrote:
>
> > Yes, I can do any of those with a PC or many, many other machines. But the MK14
> > is small and portable. It doesn't need a monitor. It will start the program
> > instantly at switch-on. It is still useful today.
>
> O, come on......of course you can go to work everyday with a penny
> farthing (early bicycles with the very different sized wheels) but would
> you?
If I rode a bicycle, and had a penny-farthing, I might well use it, yes. Please
give me one _good_ reason not to.
While I can think of other things that would be a good as the MK-14 for (say)
I2C chip testing (a microcontroller board springs to mind), I can't think of
anything that would be _better_.
The origianl statement stands. I can't think of a single computer system (owned
by me or not) that can't be used for useful work in 1997. The fact that it's
old has nothing to do with it.
I can think of many applications that need fast machines with plenty of memory.
I'd not use (most) classic computers for those. But as I rarely need to do
such work, I see no reason _not_ to use a classic.
>
> enrico
-tony
Here is a reply I got from alt.atari.2600 on my Atari S-100 boards.
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: jjessop1(a)home.com (Jerry Jessop)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.8bit,alt.atari.2600
Subject: Re: Help identify these Atari S-100 Boards
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:08:30 GMT
Sam,
Looks like you found some boards used in the old 2600 in-house
development systems. These units were Cromemco S-100 based computers
with the appropriate Atari S-100 cards installed. This system in turn
was connected to a PDP-11.
Of course they could also be coin-op development tools, hard to tell
without looking at them.
jj
On 30 Jun 1997 00:37:22 GMT, dastar(a)crl.com (Sam Ismail) wrote:
>
>I just discovered some *VERY* interesting S100 boards that I didn't
>realize I had in my box 'o S-100 boards. They seem to be some kind of
>Atari development/prototyping system. The boards are:
>
>65xx Emulator, part no. 100-015-2, Rev. 2, (c) 1983 Atari
> [this is the PCB only]
>
>Trace Memory Interface, part no. 100-002-2 (two of these)
> has (3) Intersil 6402 chips and (3) 26-pin connectors (for interface to a
> terminal), DIP switches to select the baud rate for the 6402 chips (up to
> 38400 bps). Also has a 40-pin (2-rows of 20) ribbon cable connector
> labelled J100. One has a test sticker on it with "OK 10/25/82" written
> on it.
>
>6502 Processor, part no. 100-003-2, Rev. 4
> has a 6502 and some other stuff, such as a clock speed DIP switch
> (1, 2, 4 MHZ settings), some RAM, a 40-pin ribbon cable connector
> which presumably connects to the Trace Memory Interface card (labelled
> COMP BUS J100).
> I have 2 of these boards but one is incomplete (does not have all the
> chips the other one does, for instance the 6502).
>
>All have the Atari name and logo in yellow lettering.
>
>Any idea what this stuff is and what it was used for?
>
>If you can shed any light, please reply to dastar(a)crl.com. Thanks!
--
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
.
> seems to be the fact that they were electronic and the idea
> of electronic counters (which is most of what ENIAC was) had
This is fairly complete history of electronic computings origins however
there were several electric (relay logic) designs not mentioned here.
While slow they capitialized on the then fairly mature telephone realys
of varying design. They were generally of two types the contactor or
n-pole double throw or the stepping(counting) with typically 11
positions. The later could be used to make counters or registers.
In the early years (pre about '44) these were used to make calculator
type machines of the programmed or fixed type.
Allison
> On 01-Jul-97, jpero(a)mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote:
>
> >Ok, put in generic 1.44 mb floppy drive and Pow! Why? that oddball
>
> I don't see much point in this though since the HX's controller won't
> handle the 1.44 meg drive anyway. Plus, it'd be easy enough to add a floppy
> drive to it, but supposedly neither knock-out plate has been punched out
> behind either of the drive bays! This is what prompted my original post.
>
I've been using my HX for some ten years now. Since it won't die
it's been upgraded quite a bit. Anyhind, I didn't even know the HX's
shipped without a 3.5" floppy. That was standard.
Maybe a Shack guy removed it to sell it to someone way back when.
>
> Actually, it's an 8088 running at like 7.16mhz I believe. One needs the
> PLUS Memory board to add the memory above 256k, the DMA functions, and the two
> additional PLUS connectors for the additional cards. That's a neat idea about
> the SCSI though...heck, it'd be a cinch fitting one of the newer drives into
> one of the 1" x 3-1/2" drive bays. The only problem would be power to the
> drive, since as you've already mentioned, Tandy likes to send the power
> through the ribbon cable.
>
SCSI is what I have on this one also. A 2.5" drive works fine but the
other stuff doesn't.
When I had the RLL and later an IDE (for a few days), they all got
power from the controller card. Some RLL's have power leads on the
controller. DCS (Tandy 3rd party stuff) had the IDE stuff. Didn't pay
attention where the connectors were on the 8-bit card.
> Yes, true, but XT class machines were still pretty much the norm for the
> low-end in '87 when the HX appeared. I'm glad to be getting another one
> though and remember 'PCM' making a big deal about the machine, asking if it
> might not be the best 1000-series machine up to that time. Too bad Tandy
> didn't at least make it a 286 like the TX which came out about the same time.
>
> Jeff
Hmm, a 286 design in this shell would've been nice.
I didn't realize how compact this case was 'til a neighbor came by
with a Toshiba 286 laptop recently. The thing was huge.
Ten years and my Tandy 1000 HX keeps running.
Marc
--
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Marc D. Williams
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IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos #IrcHelp
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At 11:17 PM 6/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I have,
>BASIC
All I saw were BASIC cartridges... I'll let you know if anything else turns up.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
I've just arranged for a Tandy 1000HX and it appears to be kind of odd. It
was bought at one of Tandy's infamous 'tent sales' where they dispose of stuff
they've had sitting around the local 'Shack, and the guy who bought it
originally said that it didn't come with any 3-1/2" floppy installed and that
both covers are still over the bays. It boots off of an external 5-1/4"
drive, which if I remember correctly, is selectable easily enough by way of
the SETUPHX program included with it's DOS diskettes. Do any of you
TRS-80/Tandy knowledgable people remember ever seeing a HX set up like this?
Every one of them I've ever seen new has come with a 3-1/2" floppy in the
left-most bay, right next to the expansion connectors. I bought one of these
nifty machines when they first appeared as well, and had an external 5-1/4"
floppy and CM-11 monitor with it, as well as the PLUS memory, RS232 and 1200
bps modem cards.
Jeff jeffh(a)unix.aardvarkol.com
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
i've got an ibm 3178 c, anyone know what it is?
(it's look like some kind of terminal)
seems to be in 3 main parts
i) monitor
ii) base of monitor
iii) bit that seems to go under base of monitor
cheers for any info
--
Pete Robinson
pete(a)madhippy.demon.co.uk
http://www.madhippy.demon.co.uk - 8-bit, faqs, emulators, web utilities.
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 18:16:33 +0000
From: "e.tedeschi" <e.tedeschi(a)ndirect.co.uk>
To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: 'Home' computer: Definition
Message-ID: <33B6A681.66DE(a)ndirect.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Daniel A. Seagraves wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Bruce Lane wrote:
>>
>> I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms
>> indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers.
>
> My PDP is a home computer. All it takes up is a table (I don't have a
> rack yet. It's coming...) Besides, my XT is bigger than the PDP at the
> moment (condidering keyboard, monitor, printer, and disks)
>
> Anything I can fit inside is a home computer! If it's in a home, and
> it's a computer, it's a home computer, right?
Absolutely right, Daniel! Thanks... Then Enrico responded with...
>Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a
>Ferrari a "goto work car"?)
I've seen at least a pair of them used for exactly that about 20 miles
east of me in Bellevue (the local Yuppie haven). If someone's got enough
bucks to own one of those things, you better believe they're going to get
good use out of it. ;-)
The whole definition argument seems pretty pointless, Enrico. That's what
I was trying to say in the first place. If you want to set your own
definitions of what constitutes a 'home computer,' that's fine. The rest of
us will happily(?) continue to use whatever strikes our fancy for computing
hardware in the home (a much better definition, I think).
As has been pointed out, this group is for discussion of 'classic'
computers. Bill Whitson's definition of 'classic,' in this case, refers to
ANY machine that is ten years or more old. Period.
Since MicroVAXen and other DEC machines fall neatly into that category, I
will continue to discuss them with others on this group. Period.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have work to do on this beautiful 12-year old
HP drafting plotter I just bought (replace a couple of switches, clean it
up, and it'll be good to go, especially once I hook it to the MicroVAX!)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272)
(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)wizards.net)
http://www.wizards.net/technoid
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own
human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
for those of you interested in mainframes and minis, there's an unknown
piece of test equipment going for sale on AuctionWeb, item# yzx34561.
it sounds pretty interesting,if one has a use for such a piece of
equipment.
Jeff jeffh(a)unix.aardvarkol.com
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800,
800XL, MegaST-2, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel
Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Timex-Sinclair 1000,
TRS-80 Color Computer 3, and Model IV. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong
and Atari 2600VCS game consoles
In message <33B75A67.2AE4(a)ndirect.co.uk> classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu writes:
> Brett wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote:
> > > There are computers that you could not possibly USE but they are
> > > important for what they meant (and mean today) in short for their
> > > "heritage". Without them you could not have used (and use) the ones you
> > > are using today.
>
I assume the following is one of the computers you claim can't possibly be
used today...
> How about the Science of Cambridge (Sinclair) MK XIV ? It had 256 bytes
You mean an MK-14. I've never seen it printed in roman numerals (I have the
machine, user manual, a couple of 3rd party books, the adverts, etc, etc,etc
It was my first computer).
> (NOT Kb, BYTES) of RAM memory, LED display, not modulator and no way of
> storing programs (you could add these at a later stage as accessories).
Perhaps you could explain _why_ I can't use one today. I've written many,
many embedded control programs (monitor some inputs, update state variables,
toggle outputs, etc) that would _trivially_ fit into 256 bytes of SC/MP code.
If I add the optional INS8154 RAM/IO chip I have another 128 bytes of RAM and
16 bidirectional I/O lines. I can also add another 256 bytes by raiding my
junk box for some 2111's.
I can think of a few dozen applications that I could use that for. A trivial
one is an I2C chip tester - replace the monitor ROMs with ones burnt to contain
the correct code (avoids using the cassette interface option...), and have
said code read I2C addresses/data from the hex keypad and bit-bang the I2C
protocol on a couple of the 8154 lines. Or, how about a Centronics printer
tester (emulate the centronics port on the 8154, make it print the classic
scrolling ASCII text). Or a programmable pulse generator for digital IC
testing. Or a hundred-and-one other applications.
Yes, I can do any of those with a PC or many, many other machines. But the MK14
is small and portable. It doesn't need a monitor. It will start the program
instantly at switch-on. It is still useful today.
>
> enrico
>
>
-tony
>
>From: Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers <gram(a)cnct.com>
>Subject: Re: 'Home' computer: Definition
>On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote:
>> Which reminds me, my oldest handheld is from Korea. It feels great on my
>> feet! My uncle picked it up for me in the mid-60's tho the design has been
>> around in Asia for centuries.
>Yeah, got three assorted items of that nature myself (abacuses?
>abaci? Never met anybody with more than one to tell me the proper
>plural!)
>--
>Ward Griffiths
Consulting "The Japanese Abacus; Its Use and Theory" by Takashi Kojima
(12th printing, 1960) He uses "abacuses" as the plural form. (very
interesting history that dates way back to Roman days and farther).
Unfortunately I have a somewhat incompatible model from my book, on my
wall is a chinese abacus with 5 and 2 beads per digit, where the
japanese models use 4 and 1 (which sounds more logical to me, easier to
execute a carry to the next digit.)
An interesting chapter in the book covers a contest hosted by Stars &
Stripes between a U.S. Pvt. in Macarthur's Finance Disbursing Section,
(an awarded expert operator of calculators of the tim)e and a Japanese
champion abacus operator from the Postal Ministry. As of 1946 the
Japanese Abacuses were still able to beat the latest in American
calculators.
Larry Anderson
--
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Bill:
{...}
> 2. Submission & storage: UUEncoded image file e-mailed to "repository";
> ROM/EPROM chips sent by snail mail and returned. All submissions should have
> as much info about the source computer as possible (board revisions, date of
> mnaufacture, etc.)
>>I think that anything doing with the chips (purchasing, programming,
>>shipping) should be left to the person that needs them. Sure, not very
>>many people on the list have programmers, but there are enough kind souls
>>that would do the programming. Anyway, having a policy concerning
>>shipping and supply may turn into a big headache.
I don't think that this would be a problem. I don't anticipate that many
people would want it this way (we are all hardware hackers {in the nice
sense}, after all). Even so, as long as a person doesn't want Fedex delivery,
how bad can it be??
> 4. Cost: nominal (cost of postage and EPROM).
>>Doing any more may actually be legally shakey.
I don't think so. See one of my earlier messages on this topic. If you're
posting a ROMimage, you have already "paid" your licensing fee because you own
the machine. I'm just replacing a defective copy with a working copy (sort of
like exchanging a defective diskette dor a working one). We're not "creating"
or "copying" for distribution. Also, we can limit it to pre-PC machines.
Chances are that these manufacturers are either out of business or no longer
support the machine.
>>Additional thought...
>>How will additional required information be tied to the ROM images (as in
>>manufacturers part numbers, revision levels, serial numbers,
>>corresponding hardware information, etc.)? ROMS (and PALs) often change
>>as the circuits get minor "improvements" (ECOs).
I don't know yet. I'm grappling with this now. There are all sorts of issues
with this: parts are house numbered, or not numbered at all. Maybe we can go
by unit serial number, date-of-manufacture stickers, and pc-board
identifications (such as "Revision A" or the like).
-------------------------------------------------
Rich Cini/WUGNET
- ClubWin Charter Member (6)
- MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking
> Also have these:
>
> the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1
> California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square
> and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding]
>
> Any idea what this stuff is?
>
>
> Sam
I was reading in the Atari Game Systems FAQ that the 7800 carts are
encrypted with a special encryption and only those encrypted games get
access to the 7800's advanced video resources (otherwise it just gets
2600 resources)... This was a measure by Atari to make sure to get a
share of the profits from 3rd party game developers. There could be a
slight possibility this is an encryption unit for the 7800 game
system...
Currently no one knows (or is saying they know) how to encrypt 7800
carts.
Larry Anderson
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Hey, that mailing list fudged part of my first line as their command
which reported in error and refused to post it here. :(
Q. Hold on, I would like to express my opinions...
"Home Computer" term is invented by corporations to supposely help
define their markets and totally miss it all the time because users
needs is usually higher than their corporates' computers by factor of
1.5 to 2. At same time tries to pull off a coup on "home" users by
selling stripped down with loads of cut corners and oft-nonstandard
parts machine at horrible prices. Case in point: PCjr. PCjr and
orignal 2 piece PS/1 (sold at 1000 bux cdn but you get no HD in it,
introduced 1990's but users right away dumped them by pallets barely
2 years after. Yuk!) Side note: I traded few things to get this PS/1
2011 and used it for a while but sold it cheaply to a user who have
modest needs than I. (for me, I can't manage well without hard drive
attached even all the down to XT but not for apple II's their floppy
drive is very fast enough to forgo hd, very impressed but at that
time too expensive for my taste but now they are so cheap now.)
So there was a bad taste to this name "home computers" in general.
Similar types of computers did well in many areas but
happened to lack important areas that killed it. Ironically, better
to build DIY similar capablies 386, 80mb, 1mb, desktop/mono vga and
still easily interchangable than that darned PS/1 2011 models. When I
read about many machines and few "home computers" as called toys but
I was mistaken when I saw and heard that "toy", boy, they're mistaken
and I was taken too for a while! Indeed they were used for anything
within their capablies so I accept anything that has CPU in it at
same time useful and expandable should be decent computers, no more
or less. :)
C64, PET's, apples and such has just right stuff to keep users
happy.
In closing, corporations always underestimate "home" users.
But now they are not pushing this word and crippled machines anymore,
now selling them in general to any users execpt for corporations who
needs turnkey system just to do very specific jobs like weak machine
strictly for WP use, alphas for servers and heavy graphics, fast
processor for programming but that is getting blurred that most users
can afford them and can put them in their homes.
Ok, now I could respond to yours... :)
> I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms
> indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers.
Suppose, Digital did not cared a whit and cut prices on that and we
would be sure many would have one in home if they're small enough and
easy on power requirements. Linux is there now and NT can be run on
alphas but bit late and cost is fast appoaching to affordable levels
where getting a pentium pro machine is not only option.
>
> For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in
> general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as
> any machine that you can:
>
> * Comfortably fit through your door...
>
> * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor...
>
> * Power and run without tripping your main breaker...
>
> * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your home!
>
> Which just goes to show that such terminology is so relative, there's
> little point in debating it. Why waste the bandwidth over something as
> trivial as a difference in wording?
>
> (No, I'm not trying to start a flamewar; I posted this because I'm
> concerned that the current thread regarding 'home' computers may erupt into
> one!)
>
> Caveat Emperor!
Anyone know where I could get a replacement disk drive for a Digital
PDT-11/150? This is a machine with an LSI-11 processor and two 8 inch
floppy drives that runs RT-11. I've got two machines but one has a
floppy that doesn't work. I'd like to find a replacement drive if
possible.
Thanks in advance,
David Betz
--
David Betz
dbetz(a)xlisper.mv.com
DavidBetz(a)aol.com
(603) 472-2389
I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms
indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers.
For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in
general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as
any machine that you can:
* Comfortably fit through your door...
* Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor...
* Power and run without tripping your main breaker...
* (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your home!
Which just goes to show that such terminology is so relative, there's
little point in debating it. Why waste the bandwidth over something as
trivial as a difference in wording?
(No, I'm not trying to start a flamewar; I posted this because I'm
concerned that the current thread regarding 'home' computers may erupt into
one!)
Caveat Emperor!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272)
(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)wizards.net)
http://www.wizards.net/technoid
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own
human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
- "Fumbling the Future" by Douglas Smith and Robert Alexander
- "Halcion Days" By???
I would like to add these two titles to my HOME COMPUTER BIBLIOGRAPHY.
Does anybody have the name of the publishers and the year of publishing?
Thank you
enrico
--
================================================================
Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K.
tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile
website <http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~e.tedeschi>
================================================================
visit Brighton: <http://www.brighton.co.uk/tourist/welcome.htm>
Sam Ismail <dastar(a)crl.com> writes:
> California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square
> and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding]
>
> Any idea what this stuff is?
Well, no. I pulled a CCS catalog (dated Feb 1981) and took a look,
and the only 28xx card was the 2810 Z80 CPU.
As I read the catalog, though, I might expect 28xx to mean some sort
of processor or coprocessor. Or maybe not; CCS weren't entirely
consistent with their numbering scheme and the sample sizes weren't
that large.
-Frank McConnell
> Even the kaypro, while fairly
> fast has the slowest screen on the planet. I
I beg to differ. The slowest screen on the planet is the Pro350.
Roger Ivie
ivie(a)cc.usu.edu
