Didnt ESDI come out when the IBM PS/2 announced?
In a message dated 98-01-05 21:31:57 EST, you write:
<<
> MFM (early 80's?)
Very early 80's, I think, for the ST-506.
> RLL (late 80's?)
I tend to think of this as a minor variation of MFM, myself :-)
> SCSI (late 70's?)
The first official-type "SCSI specification" was proposed by an
ANSI committee in 1984. It was almost backwards-compatible with SASI
(Shugart Associates System|Storage Interface) which had been kicking
around since 1978 or 1979.
> ESDI (?)
Mid-80's
> IDE
aka "ATA", clostely related to the announcement of the IBM AT... which would
put it around 1985 or shortly afterwards? This wasn't really a new standard;
the IDE bus interface looks exactly like a WD1002 hooked up to a MFM drive!
> any others?
The SA4000 and SA1000 interfaces date from the late 70's.
And let's not forget the granddaddy of them all, SMD! (CDC, 1975 or so?)
And SMD's immediate descendant, the MASSBUS...
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
>>
> At 08:48 AM 1/5/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >Two, that today's computers run old software too quickly - that doesn't
> >sound like archaic software to me, if it's running directly on today's
> >machines and OSes.
>
> Try loading up Buck Rogers and the Planet of Zoom! on a Cyrix 200 and see
> how well it plays. Same goes for Frogger. :) They run blindingly fast,
> making them utterly worthless unless you use one of those slowdown utils,
> but most of those only run right on 486s.
There is a PC-based game I got on a shareware CD that came with my Pentium-75
called "Galactic Food Fight". It is blindingly fast as well. It's shareware,
so if anyone wants a copy....
> Three, that ancient games don't "hurt" today's
> >software market. Doing what?
>
> Doing what? Being available for "free" (illegally) out there for people to
> get to them. The fact that people are still playing them doesn't affect
> today's game market at all. It's a whole different ballpark out there these
> days.
I'm sorry, but if people say it's ok to pirate old games, even more people
than now will start to say, "Well, this game is not that new", and pirate IT.
Now, I have nothing against software piracy on a simple basis: either I get
the program for free, and the compay loses 50 bucks, or I don't get the
program at all, which means that the company is still 50 bucks short. However,
my 14.4 modem helps me keep my morals straight :)
> >so ... so, you say they should give up on them? A tenth of something is
> >still something.
>
> But repackaging the games and shipping them would up the price to at least
> $10.00 a piece, and you would have to come up with a cheap way to make sure
> the games ran at original speed on all systems, another few bucks for R&D
> right there, so you'll probably end up spending $50.00 for a compilation CD
> with maybe 10 games on it, and nothing else. (Can you say "Roberta Williams
> Sierra Compilation"?)
>
> Why not release the games as shareware, with no set ammount defined? People
> could pay what the game is worth to them. I think Maxis did that with the
> original SimCity.
How many people do you suppose would buy the original frogger? Even for $5?
Even if someone put a rack of frogger diskettes for free out in CompUSA or
something, how many would take it?
> >Don't get me wrong and think I'm just flaming you... I agree, I wish
>
> Oh, not at all. I expected alot more flak from people when I started this
> thread, but was suprised at how well the members of the list are taking it.
> (so far)
>
>
> - John Higginbotham
>- limbo.netpath.net
>
BTW, where is that Linux emulator page?
-----Original Message-----
From: Wirehead Prime <wirehead(a)retrocomputing.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: I don't believe this ****
>
>
>> Out of curiosity has anyone else with web pages dealing with classic
>> computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your
>> collection as scrap? Talk about insulting!
>
>I've never had anyone contact me. If they did, I'd ask them if I could
>buy some of their old computers by the pound. =-)
>
>Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
>
This time it is an "HM-6100 Pocket Reference Card" from Harris
Semiconductor. It is a simple one sheet affair (folded improperly,
unfortunately), describing Harris's implementation of the one chip PDP-8.
As with other offers, interested parties should give me a reason why they
need the thing, and I will shoot it out (postage is basically nothing) to
the winner. No "first come first serve" here.
Also as with other offers, I can be bribed with some equally small bit of
computer paper from the mini and mainframe world.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
Just wanted to let you all know I have a few odd and ends up on e-bay
right. An old TRS-80 stringy floppy drive, some TRS-80 manuals, etc. Just
check for the seller coslor(a)bobcat.peru.edu for the complete listing of
what's up there now. The stringy floppy drive comes with 11 floppy
'wafers' and the auction on that will end tonight!
Just wanted to let you all know -- for whateevr it's worth?? :-)
CORD
##############################################################################
# Cord G. Coslor -- P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE #
# (402) 872- 3272 coslor(a)bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 #
# Classic computer software and hardware collector #
# Autograph collector #
##############################################################################
#The##/ ___ /#/ ___ /##/ ___ /#/ /##/ /#/_ __/#/ /#/ /#/ _____##
#####/ /##/ /#/ /##/ /##/ /##/__/#/ /##/ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ /#######
####/ ___ /#/ _ __/##/ /#######/ ___ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ _____/###
###/ /##/ /#/ /#\ \###/ /##/ /#/ /##/ /###/ /###/ /#/ /#/ /#########
##/__/##/__/#/_/###\_\#/________/#/__/##/__/#/______/#/_______/#/________/####
##############################################################################
John Higginbotham <higginbo(a)netpath.net> wrote:
>At 11:20 AM 1/4/98 -0600, John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> wrote:
>>of people out there who like to play old computer games, but you think
>>the software owners shouldn't be free to sell to that market because
>>there's no gain in productivity or increase in "harm"? What about
>>learning or enjoyment?
>
>If you can find any message where I said that, I'd be happy to argue
>against it, but I don't think I would type that in so many words. Software
>companies SHOULD be able to sell these old games, but they can never expect
>to get the original price out of them.
It was the text in surrounding by <rant> in your January 4 message:
><rant>
>Which brings up an interesting point: Why do the self appointed software
>cops go after software archives of "abandonware" that most of today's
>computers usually run too fast anyway? Do these ancient games really hurt
>todays software market? Anything 10 years old or older should be
>freeware/public domain as far as games are concerned. They don't increase
>productivity, and the collectors of these old games aren't doing any harm
>are they?
></rant>
I'll restate what you said, as I saw it. One, there are self-appointed
software cops - you mean people who defend copyright, even of old software?
Two, that today's computers run old software too quickly - that doesn't
sound like archaic software to me, if it's running directly on today's
machines and OSes. Three, that ancient games don't "hurt" today's
software market. Doing what? Four, you say the ten-year-rule "should"
apply to games, making them (who sez?) be PD/freeware. Five, that games
don't increase productivity and that "collecting" them (pirating them?)
doesn't cause harm. And in your reply, you say that even if the developers
sell their old games, they shouldn't expect to get the old retail price,
so ... so, you say they should give up on them? A tenth of something is
still something.
My point is that people want to play games as much as use anything
else when it comes to old software. They want to recreate their
experience of years ago. Emulation and re-creation can be very handy!
I'm surprised there aren't non-MS products that streamline the gotcha's
out of running DOS, Windows 1.0, 2.0, 3.x software under Win95/NT.
Or maybe there is and I haven't heard of it. I'd love to get a copy
of Brief that wouldn't hog so much CPU in DOS emulation under WinNT.
I'm still running my 1986 copy. Is that archaic?
Don't get me wrong and think I'm just flaming you... I agree, I wish
there was a better mechanism that authors of extinct software could
use to allow new life for their old software. Sort of a national park
or conservatory for old software would be nifty. If it resulted in
payments back to the registered authors, I bet it could work. You'd
need to find volunteers altruistic enough to donate their efforts in
order to be able to send other people checks. The checks might be small
or non-existent - perhaps the authors understand that the price charged
would just fund the charity set up to distribute the software. It would
be a strange sort of charity, sort of like the Old Actor's Home, except the
charity cases might be Time-Warner or the programmer who was a millionaire
at 15 with his Commodore 64 games, who's now pushing 30 and running his own
200+ person company. In terms of effort, the hard part will be tracking
down the proper owners of all that old software.
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
Joe wrote:
> I don't remember who asked for the part number for the HP 85 printer drive
> belt but I finally dug out my service manual and found the numbers. There
> are two belts in the printer. One drives the carriage and is PN 1500-0529.
> The other drives the paper advance and is PN 1500-0572. If one is bad you
> should go ahead and replace both. During the week you can call HP's
> automated ordering line at 1-800-227-8164 and order them if they're still
> available. Let me know if these are still available and what they cost. If
> you can't get them, let me know and I'll open up one of my 85s and measure
> the belts and to to match them up with something from Small Parts Inc or
> one of the other companies.
Thanks, Joe. Someone posted HP part numbers a while back, and my
colleague is going to try the HP order line in this country first.
Meanwhile, I have extracted the belts from my own HP-85 and measured
them - FWIW they are 175T80 and 78T80 (according to the markings on the
belts) - 0.080 inch tooth spacing, 78 teeth for the paper feed and 175
teeth for the print head.
My colleague says that if he manages to buy some new ones, he will get
me a spare set as well...
Philip.
> Once you find software on-line - One of the real bummers is that the
> 8032 does not have an RS-232 port for easy communication (read: file
> transfer via null-modem) nor is the 8050 drive compatible with any other
> Commodore disk drive (like the 4040/2031 is compatible with the 1541 thus
> making it easy to get software to a 4040 by doing a null-modem to a 64
> and writing with a 1541).
I thought the 8050 was compatible with the 1571. Am I mistaken? I know
it's not compatible with the 8252 (or whatever it's called - the double
sided 8050 that's also built into the 8296D) which is silly and v.
annoying.
> Though I am not saying it is impossible; the PET does have a parallel
> user port which is VERY easy to program. With a bit of coding knowledge
> a few parts and soldering you could whip up a PET-to-Whatever connector
> and the appropriate software for transferring files.
Absolutely. I have a couple of amusing tales about this.
In 1983-84, a friend, M J Richards, and I (aged 15 and 16 respectively
at the time) developed an adventure game for the BBC micro. But we
started by typing in all the text on an 8032, followed by compression
and encryption. We then wanted to squirt this module across to the
Beeb. Alas, MJR's Beeb only had OS version 0.10, which didn't support
input on the serial port. Also alas, the 8032SK uses IEEE-488 (GPIB)
style connectors for the user port and we didn't have any. In the end,
we used the cassette motor output on the PET and the analogue input on
the BBC. Data rate was 30 baud as I recall!
Later we wanted to produce a full program listing from a disassembler
program on the BBC. By then, 8032 had returned to Dad's office, and the
only printer we had left was a Teletype ASR33. Alas again! The BBC
serial port didn't support 110 baud. PET to the rescue again - I had an
old ROM 8K machine. A few wires and a transistor later, I had an
interface - PET received data at 4800 baud on one pin of the user port
and transmitted it (via the transistor) to the Teletype on another pin.
Finally, we wanted to port the software to other machines. Acorn
Electron port was easy - it actually runs on the BBC micro if you try
hard enough - but Commodore 64 port was more difficult. I cannot
remember if I had upgraded my PET to 32K by then - I think probably not
- but we somehow got it across the same 4800 baud link and onto tape,
whence it was loaded onto a 64.
On my list of things to do now is finish the PET port of the game...
I'd be interested to hear from anyone who actually played the game - it
was licensed to a software house called Alligata who sold it as "Xanadu
Cottage" - about 400 copies were sold, I think (BBC model B only).
Also, if anyone wants a copy for their BBC B / Electron / C= 64, please
get in touch. There are still slight bugs in the tape routines for
saved positions, afaik, but otherwise it runs well.
Finally, who would like to see / play / beta-test a PET version? And
what model(s) of PET do you have?
Terms for software distribution will be shareware - if you want to pay
for the game, a suitable donation to a charity caring for Hodgkins'
Disease (of which MJR later died) is requested.
Philip.
At 12:08 AM 1/5/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Send me a private email if you want to do this. I've left this public
>because I thought it might be of use to others.
>
>Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
>
No! Leave it public. I'm curious about Linux and I'm following this.
It's better than the day time soap operas!
Joe
>
Well, if anyone wants it I can ship my FreeBSD 2.2.5 CD which I got a part
of a misorder. Because I got it for free, I'll charge whatever shipping
costs. Actually, I just am finishing installing my first Linux (Unix too!)
system on my 200MHz "Demon" (for Linux), but I need to contact the tech
support guies because they orginazied the CD so @%^# poorly. It's Debian,
and the install was slicker than ANY other OS that I've installed, from
billg's DOS 2.0 to Windows 95. Also, I feel like I've got the POWER
pre-installed, not something that you need to spend about 5 or 6 months
looking for. Plus my Debian package came with browsers, server software
(Apache included, along with the Cern servers, NCSA servers, etc.), and
almost any X-Window look you can imagine, from the NeXT style to Mac to Win
95. Well, if I ever get to an area of the planet with unlimited access time
measured in items smaller than tens of thousands of bucks for a modem, I
think that I'll see what I can do.
Well, contact me if you want FreeBSD (anyone),
Tim D. Hotze
-----Original Message-----
From: Zane H. Healy <healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: Linux???? is it real
>>PS: Sheesh the FreeBSD people are always jumping around saying, "Can't
>>get Linux to work? Try FreeBSD!"
>>
>>Linux only has a few stable kernels and Slackware uses them.
>
>Heh, you know my answer for the BSD people, which BSD? Let's see; FreeBSD,
>OpenBSD, NetBSD, 386BSD, BSD/OS, BSD Lite, I don't know what else is there.
>Personally I've got a Hard Drive with OPENSTEP, that's the only BSD system
>I'm currently running. At least Linux development is pretty much
>controlled chaos, BSD on the other had seems to be to simply be chaos.
>Yes, I know that there are quite a few different Linux distributions, but
>they all run the same kernal and to a great extent the same software.
>
>Linux has two types of kernals, production and development. If you want
>stable use production, if you want "Bleeding Edge" use development. My
>Linux fileserver has been running for over 15 months with the same software
>install, without a crash.
>
>Seriously the question you need to ask yourself when deciding which to use
>is if you want a UNIX System V based system, or a BSD 4.3/4.4 based system.
>If you want SysV go with Linux, if you want BSD then chose your poison,
>personally I'd recommend FreeBSD for the Intel architecture, OpenBSD for
>anything else.
>
>Realistically the two are basically the same, on the topic of documentation
>is about the only real difference. You can find a ton of books specific to
>Linux, as far as I know the only BSD 4.4 specific books are the Berkley
>docs that Linux printed.
>
>I find OpenBSD of intrest because it's purpose is to be multiplatform,
>however, I think the total USENET traffic for it is less than
>comp.os.linux.announce
>
>I've got to agree with the comment that Linux is great for running
>emulators. I'm still looking for a PDP-11 of my own, but in the mean time
>I can play with the PDP-11 emulator under Linux and run stuff like RT-11 or
>Version 5 UNIX.
>
> Zane
>
>
>| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
>| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
>| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
>+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
>| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
>| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
>| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
>| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
>
>
Let's start the new year off with an interesting one, eh?
Since it seems that there are as many people out there looking for Altairs
as are looking for PDP-8's, and the original PDP-8 ('straight' 8) is the
one major model of the line that seems to keep eluding me, I'm offering the
following:
---
One electronically restored and functional MITS Altair 8800 (the original,
not the later 'a' or 'b' series), 16k of static memory, MITS serial card,
complete documentation set, and a set of MITS (Microsoft) Altair BASIC
paper tapes (4k, 8k, 12k version) and other paper tape based utilities.
(NOTE: memory is non-MITS, docs may be mix of original and reprints)
In trade for:
One Digital Equipment Corporpation PDP-8 (original, not later 'i', 'e',
etc... series), with 4k or more of core, and serial (teletype) control.
Any additional options welcome. Desktop configuration desired, but
rackmount configuration perfectly acceptable. Documentation and
engineering prints desired as is any original software (diags, languages,
etc.), but lack of same does not disqualify. Functional unit desired, but
non-functional units will be considered as long as they are complete (all
cards, modules, etc.) and have no unusual physical damage.
Shipping/delivery arrangements for both units to be discussed separately.
Location of unit may be a consideration. (my location: Beaverton Oregon)
Any takers?
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
Saw these things in a second-hand store in Las Vegas the other day:
Coleco Adam
Franklin Ace 1200
Lanier <somethingorother>
(it had two 5.25" floppy drives, two LEDs, and two
rocker switches on its front panel)
CoCo 2
Although I was awfully tempted, I ended up deciding they wouldn't fit
in my luggage, so they are probably still there, at the "Faith Lutheran"
thrift store, at 707 N. Rancho.
Let the race begin!
Bill.
At 10:56 PM 1/4/98, you wrote:
>>Wives?
>
> OK to have more than one of those too, just not at the same time!
Unless you live in Utah...
-John Higginbotham-
-limbo.netpath.net-
> Let me recount what has been discussed over the past 36 hours:
> Linux vs Windows (My fault, sorry!)
> Why dogs lick their balls
> Atheism
> What makes a good marriage
> Copyrights
You forgot pot roasts
>
> Now, I will try to get us back on track. Is there a GeoWrite-like program
for
> something besides C-64, which is where I saw it, with fonts and stuff
> displaying on screen as I type? PC-XT would be nice
Yes. I have Geoworks with no manual, but a third party "how to" book.
E-mail me privately.
manney(a)nwohio.com
I'm looking for some information on a Laser 128. I've had one for several
months now, and have known that it was an Apple clone. Unfortunatly it has
a mouse, but no Power Supply. However, a couple days ago I got a second
one, this time with no mouse, but it has the Power Supply and an external
floppy drive and monitor cable.
So I just plugged it into one of my little Apple IIc monitors since one was
handy, and I'm happy to say it works. Even boots DOS 3.3 (will it run
ProDOS?).
One slight problem, the keyboard makes no sense, when I hit a key,
something else comes up. Is this because I don't have their version of the
OS, or is there a problem with the computer, or what? Any ideas?
While I'm at it, will the little IIc green monitors display anything other
than 40 columns? Looking at the manuals it looks like I should be able to
get my IIc to display 80 columns on it, but I've not been able to. IIRC I
have been able to get my Franklin Ace 1200 to run CP/M on one in 80
columns. I'm aware of the 40/80 column button on the IIc, but I've tried
two different IIc's with no luck.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
Let me recount what has been discussed over the past 36 hours:
Linux vs Windows (My fault, sorry!)
Why dogs lick their balls
Atheism
What makes a good marriage
Copyrights
Now, I will try to get us back on track. Is there a GeoWrite-like program for
something besides C-64, which is where I saw it, with fonts and stuff
displaying on screen as I type? PC-XT would be nice
> >Well, frogger is a good example of why not. I see they're bringing it
out
> >again.
>
> Okay, so you own a new computer, maybe a P200 mmx and you have this old
copy
> of frogger, from your XT days... If this old copy gets out on the
internet
> or elsewhere, is it going to affect sales of the new Frogger version?
Well, I meant...Frogger is an axample of why "they" don't just throw game
concepts out the window. Frogger seems to have been resurrected. You're
right -- the new one is different, and most young users would prefer the
new version (I LIKED the old one, though! Anyone have Frogger for the PC
for sale?)
Hullo;
I'm trying to finish restoring my Apollo DN5500, but I can't seem to track
down the parts I need. Maybe somebody here can help...
I need the following for sure:
Apollo P/N 012600-01 -- 760 MB ESDI disk (Maxtor XT-8760E)
011778 -- 60 MB SCSI QIC drive (Archive 2060S)
SR10.3.5 or 10.4 tapeset (not the 10.4.1 RAI
like I've got already).
These would also be useful but are not needed:
Apollo P/N 12173 -- 8 plane 1280x1024 video board
7550 -- 3 button DOMAIN mouse
If you could help me out, I'd appreciate it greatly. This Apollo has been
sitting around half-working for too long.
Oh, and on an unrelated tangent, I could also use a Mac SE/30 motherboard,
which has similarly eluded me. (:
Thanks.
ok
-r
--
r e d @ b e a r s . o r g
=============================
[ urs longa | vita brevis ]
<If you download the latest elks kernel source - 0.0.67 at the moment bu
<0.0.68 is due out anytime, along with elkscmd.tar.gz you will have an
<almost complete Linux subset for the 8086 with which you can then work.
<The acronym ELKS is 'Embeddable Linux Kernel Subset' but the project is
That's interesting but linux on a 386 is still frustrating me to the
max!
Allison
At 11:20 AM 1/4/98 -0600, you wrote:
>of people out there who like to play old computer games, but you think
>the software owners shouldn't be free to sell to that market because
>there's no gain in productivity or increase in "harm"? What about
>learning or enjoyment?
If you can find any message where I said that, I'd be happy to argue
against it, but I don't think I would type that in so many words. Software
companies SHOULD be able to sell these old games, but they can never expect
to get the original price out of them.
-John Higginbotham-
-limbo.netpath.net-
> One of the problems with using a RS printer on a PC is that the RS units
> all (most?) add a linefeed in the printer firmware. If you do not know
> the escape sequence to disable it everything comes out doublespaced. And
> not all of their escape sequences were the same.
> - don
I've never had a problem with that...they usually print the info on the
back. My problem is the the early DMP dot matrix series (before 134, I
think) will not respond to many PC parallel ports. I've heard that Radio
Schlock has a cable to fix that, but they said no.
Anyway, these early DMP's respond to most modern motherboards. Don't know
why.
manney
> >Well, frogger is a good example of why not. I see they're bringing it
out
> >again.
>
> I played a demo of the new Frogger on my Playstation, it's NOTHING like
the
> original! Give me the original any day, it was all on the screen at one
> time!
>
> Zane
I don't mean that the new one is better, just that it doesn't seem to have
died. I loved the original one, too (on an Atari 400, as I recall.)
manney
<V7 and BSD ran fine on the PDP-11. All it will take to port ELKS will
<be somebody with access to PDP-11 hardware, a working Linux system, an
<too much time on their hands. To quote a movie from twenty years back
I have the 11/23 or 11/73 to pick from (with 30meg of disk).
I have a pdp11 C compiler (decus C) running under RT-11.
I can copy elks sources to the 11
ELKS is only an embedded kernel. Oops.
UZI unix is for z80 and could be ported too (it's in C save for
LL-drivers).
Allison