> What happened? Water get through a scratch and the aluminum started
> corroding? Never dropped one in a lake, but my Warcraft II cd took a dip
> in the toilet one day. I'm still wondering how it got on top of the toilet
> in the first place...
I think there are plenty of mechanisms, not all well understood.
Example: Thermal cycling (repeated warming and cooling) causes
mechanical stresses. These grow microscopic cracks at imperfections /
scratches / impurities in the plastic until there is a path for
corroding chemicals (like water) to get in at the aluminium.
Some CDs now use a gold layer instead of an aluminium one. I don't know
how much longer these last.
The above mechanism can be combated by keeping the discs in a
temperature-controlled environment (a lake I would have thought would
not be too bad for that but obviously it was...) - but mechanical
stresses still occur when spinning up and down.
Just my 2d worth.
Philip.
At 07:14 AM 1/7/98 +0300, you wrote:
>ROM (not EEPROM!) with the data on it. It would be cool to see a drive that
>read ROMS, or, if you put a "blank" one in would burn it for you. Of course
>that's only good for a few K, but for text, that should be sufficent.
How about something in a cartridge format? Alot of Video game carts these
days are topping 8mb.
-John Higginbotham-
-limbo.netpath.net-
automatizaci=F3n de procesos industriales.
Desde hace varios a=F1os estamos instalando terminales de ALTOS IV. =
=20
Actualmente tenemos una delegaci=F3n en BRASIL, pero no tenemos
informaci=F3n si ustedes disponen de servicio t=E9cnico en Brasil.
Rogamos nos indiquen si lo tienen, as=ED como los servicios t=E9cnic=
os
de Iberoam=E9rica.
=20
Agradeciendo la atenci=F3n prestada:
Jose Manuel Soria V=E1zquez
----------------------------------------------
Finds:
Just before Christmas I found the following cassette software in ziplock
bags with the manual:
Extended Basic by Processor Technologies for the SOL-20
Resident Assembler by Processor Technologies for the SOL-20
Text Editor by Processor Technologies for the SOL-20
a terminal program (I forget the name) by Dynasty Computer for the=
SMART-Alec.
---------------------------------------------
I want to approach a company about getting permission to copy their
manuals and system software to distribute to other collectors.
I think that it would go smoother if I already had a contract drawn up
before hand. A generic agreement.
Does anyone have experience with this? Or are there any Lawyer/Collectors
out there? I'm looking for real experience.
If a document like this doesn't exist, it should. We need to do all
can towards tracking down who owns the rights to the software
that keeps our machines running and getting their permission to
copy it for others.
---------------------------------------------
Fun Fact:
The PMC101 "MicroMate" CP/M 3.0 System disk comes with a
utility called CONVERT which allows the user to configure any
of the floppy drives attached to the system (up to 4) to read and
write disks of a number of different CP/M formats. The disks
must already be formated. This utility makes it easy to transfer
files between these formats:
COMPUTER SIDES DENSITY =20
PMC-101 2 Double =20
PMC-101 1 Double =20
Omikron 1 Single =20
Kaypro II 1 Double =20
Osborne 1 Single =20
Osborne 1 Double =20
HP-125 2 Double =20
Xerox 820 II 1 Single =20
Xerox 820 II 1 Double =20
Dec 1 Double =20
IBM PC (CP/M) 1 Double =20
Zenith Z-37 1 Double =20
MicroDecision 1 Double
MicroDecision 2 Double
InterSystems 2 Double
InterSystems 1 Double
Televideo 802 2 Double
Cromemco 1 Single
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com =20
Senior Software Engineer
Press Start Inc. =20
Sunnyvale,CA=20
Curator
Museum of Personal Computing Machinery =20
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Hey guess what, very odd. If you have the cart's in and you boot to a normal
plain old DOS disk, just type 123 and it Loads!! YES! Don't know how the
heck it does it, but it does work.
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Merchberger <zmerch(a)northernway.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 01, 1998 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: PCjr Lotus carts A and B
>;-) Bill Girnius head-scratched, yawned, then typed:
>>I have a set of these, they wont load, all my other carts work. Is there a
>>stupid command or disk I need, or are they busted?
>
>I'm quite sure that there is a boot disk that's needed as well, but I could
>never get my Jr's to spew out video very well... :-(
>
>HTH,
>Roger "Merch" Merchberger
>--
>Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed,
>Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not*
>zmerch(a)northernway.net | be your first career choice.
>
allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) writes:
> Actually there are people that have looked into landfills that are in the
> 100-200 years old range and they have found things in an amazing state of
> preservation.
It occurs to me that 100-200 years ago we did not have certain modern
conveniences, like the heavy tractors with big metal spiky rollers
and/or wheels that I've seen in use at landfills. I'd guess the
object is to flatten the refuse layer out by crushing it.
-Frank McConnell
Apologies to all.
On 1/3/98 at 12:05pm I attempted to send a private note to
Ward Donald Griffiths III, concerning his signature......
but it was posted publicly instead.
It was an accident. I believe that any group needs to limit
the discussion pretty strictly to the stated topic only, as
I've seen how it can get too far afield on other groups.
For the record, I hit the "reply to author" button, & it
replied to everybody. I'll try my best to be more careful
in the future.
Most of the people in the group simply ignored it, possibly
the most appropriate thing to do. About six (not many out of
200 total) reminded me that the subject was classic computers,
with varying degrees of civility -- nuff sed. The absolute
standout First Prize response was from Uncle Roger, with such
a bizzare comment that I am left speechless -- thanx Unc -- I
will be driving down to SF when you least expect it, & deliver
your new big heavy bible up side yo head. Just kidding.
---mikey
Where is she located exactly?
At 09:41 PM 1/6/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Needless to say I sent her a message tonite letting her know that I'm
>interested, and if it's something I don't want (probably due to where it
>is) that I'd pass the information onto people that will be interested.
>
>Who knows what started out as an insult, might turn out to be an
>interesting source.
-John Higginbotham-
-limbo.netpath.net-
I've got a line on a Tektronix 6132 workstations, and I'm wondering what
exactly it is. According to the current owner it runs Berkeley UNIX ver
4.2 with some 4.3 extensions. Apparently it's been sitting in a closet
unused for the last 8 years, so who knows if it's working. He also
referred to it as a UTek workstation.
I didn't even know Tek made any computers, and web searches bring up zilch.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
"David Williams" <dlw(a)neosoft.com> wrote:
> Also, anything on a DS200MC terminal server?
Assuming you mean a DECserver 200/MC, I was using these in 1988, so
I'd guess that they're acceptable for discussion on this list, or will
be soon enough.
As you wrote, it's a terminal server. Eight RS-232 ports with enough
modem control to support most asynchronous communications needs, and
an Ethernet port for connection to your LAN. As I recall there is
enough firmware in the thing to request an executable image via DEC's
MOP protocol, pick one responding host to download it from, and once
that image is downloaded (via MOP) and running, to do terminal and
printer service via DEC's LAT protocol. They do not do TCP/IP-suite
protocols, though later models of DECserver may.
Hence you can plug terminals, modems, printers, or computers into the
RS-232 ports, and set them up so that either they connect to other
computers via LAT, or so that other computers (or other terminal
server ports) can connect via LAT to "services" associated with the ports.
Generally speaking, they're not real useful outside DEC environments,
but are very useful there.
-Frank McConnell
First off, though not quite 10 years, I'd love to find an affordable 3.5"
ESDI hard drive in the 100-500mb range for my PS/2 model 70 lunchbox.
Second, Does anyone know when the various hard drive interfaces were
developed? The ones I can think of include:
MFM (early 80's?)
RLL (late 80's?)
SCSI (late 70's?)
ESDI (?)
IDE
any others? Thanks...
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
>I'm starting to wonder about how common the C-64c is. I have yet to see
>one, I picked up the manuals when a favorite bookstore had a set a few
>months back. Then last weekend I was at the bookstore and they had like 3
>or 4 sets of manual. But like I said I've never seen an actual computer!
I'm assuming you mean the different case design - over here (South
Australia) they seem to be as common as the old breadbox sort, but I
suspect that in numbers they are slightly less than the older designs. I
have three of them, and I only wanted the one. As far as I know there are
no functional changes, although Commodore had a history of working out
ways to make systems cheaper, so there may be a difference internally.
I did find one old C64 in a third-party case which looked very much like
the C64c, though. Interestingly enough it was made here - I would have
picked it up, but I shy away from collecting computers based on the
different cases, as there are too many to collect just based on the
different systems themselves, and space is limited.
Adam.
What did you expect? I mean, it was in the lake, with moving water all
around it, fish, plants, and lord knows what else brushing aginst it, and so
forht. The perfect form of data preservation is probably punched tape, or,
ROM (not EEPROM!) with the data on it. It would be cool to see a drive that
read ROMS, or, if you put a "blank" one in would burn it for you. Of course
that's only good for a few K, but for text, that should be sufficent.
-----Original Message-----
From: jpero(a)cgo.wave.ca <jpero(a)cgo.wave.ca>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: I don't believe this ****
> At 11:49 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote:
>
> >discolored. There should be a better way to compost them...
> >Allow enough O2 there, it will decompose and oxidize better.
>
> What do you think about CD-ROMS? I hear they have have a much longer
> capacity to hold data, as opposed to 15 years for VHS tapes in average
> conditions. Would UV be the major factor in CD-ROM deterioration?
Actually, the sealer on that side of any cdrom label side is pretty
easy to scratch, once that happens, the life is really shortened!
The shiny layer is aluminum. I heard of someone who threw a
favorite cd into lake in frustration, but few years later, found it
again, it's ruined.
Jason D.
>
> - John Higginbotham
> - limbo.netpath.net
>
>
>
Yes, actually, there are a couple of companies that do that. (Only recycle
computers) They take PC's or Macs. They're currently mostly only used by
corporate managers trying to find a green way to get rid of their Windows
3.1 machines, but they get paid a little in return. They're trying to
become more home-orginized, but the word needs to get out. They report that
2% of the weight of a 3 year old computer is dust!!!
As for what happens with landfills, I've heard that studies show that
it's the plastic. (I'd guess that it like forms a bubble covering the
newspapers, etc. blocking out all air, etc.) That would make it
near-perfect preservation, even into tripple or, even quad digit numbers.
Near the bottom, there's more air.
Tim D. Hotze
-----Original Message-----
From: William Donzelli <william(a)ans.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: I don't believe this ****
>> > > >>computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your
>> > > >>collection as scrap? Talk about insulting!
>
>Yes, that was completely tactless on their part. Maybe if they collect
>something like Hummels, perhaps you should have offered to grind them up
>to make spackle.
>
>> > You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd
>> > rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a
reasonably
>> > efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a
>> > landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away
>> > under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them
>> > scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice....
>
>I agree here, and for the most part, the majority of computers end up
>being recycled, either in the U.S. or abroad.
>
>I have nothing against the scrappers, other than those that flat out
>refuse to deal with the collectors. It is VERY efficient (something like
>98% by mass get recycled now - CRTs and some photocopier parts are the
>only stumbling blocks), and frankly, one can make a good living at it.
>What one can not make a good living at is refurbishing them - they just
>get devalued too fast.
>
>Lets face it, we can not save it all. True, we should try to get the
>goodies into the collector's hands so they survive. Often in makes more
>sense to try to resell a system than to scrap it (like the TT030). For the
>most part, however, computers (and other electronics) probably should be
>scrapped. For example, one place I deal with in Kansas City (and now
>Chicago) has a roomful of IBM Series/1 minicomputers all humming away.
>Eventually, they will get decommissioned. If I were a scrapper and won the
>bid for them (sometimes the bid just means picking them up!), I would keep
>one for myself, one sripped down for spares, and offer any others to
>members on the list (or the collecting community in general). If those
>latter ones do not move, they would get scrapped. This applies to just
>about anything, PeeCees, VT100s, ES/9000s, C64s, etc. - with the exception
>of the special machines (_old_ machines, prototypes, high demand
>collectables, etc.). Obviously, the day I scrap a S/360 will never come.
>
>William Donzelli
>william(a)ans.net
>
>
<Never moved a LA-120 so fast in my life... Oh, my boss heard what happene
<When asked "when they fix th' 100, you want me to swap it back?", the ans
<was a brief "Nope!". I actually have one of those "evil" LA-100's.. Glad
<my dislike for th' thing..
Little history since I was in that group. The LA120 was the longest
running hardcopy printer dec ever made. It's hallmarks were rugged as
hell, ugly print quality even through 8 copies of NCR paper! I used to
call it the paper punch as to do 8 copies you had to really punch it.
Inside DEC it was the preferred hardcopy console.
I also happen to have a LA100RO and as a wide platten printer of later
design it was pretty good. It also was spec'd to 6 copies thick.
Allison
For the longest time, when I was very young, I thought those movies were
made in black and white because everything WAS black and white. Crazy, huh?
At 01:38 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote:
>I know, I like to have both choices anyway because I'm curious what
>colors looked like at that time also enjoy the b/w for it's quality.
-John Higginbotham-
-limbo.netpath.net-
I saw a DECWriter II today near the trash. It was a typewriter-style thing
bolted to a table. I didn't stay around long, because there was a security
camera watching (what are they for above the trash anyway, for god's sake?). I
couldn't have dragged it away, or put it anywhere, anyway. So, what did I
miss?
classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
Subj: Re: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s
Tony Duell wrote:
!> MFM (early 80's?)
!> RLL (late 80's?)
!> SCSI (late 70's?)
!> ESDI (?)
!> IDE
!>
!> any others? Thanks...
!
!I can't help with dates, but there are a lot of others :
!
!SASI (forerunner of SCSI)
!SMD
!HPIB :-) (Seriously, HP did make large-ish hard disks with an HPIB interface)
!Massbus (?)
!
!And the custom ones :
!Shugart SA4000 (one 50 wire cable)
!Shugart SA1000 (50 wire control cable, that could be shared with 8" floppy
!drives, and a 20/26 wire data cable)
!DEC : R80 (almost SMD, but different enough to give you headaches!),
!RK05, RL01, RK06, etc... Doubtless other manufactures had similar custom
!interfaves
!Diablo 30 (almost the same as RK05, but not quite)
!Micropolis 1200 (either the raw 50 wire interface, or the formatted one.
!There was a standard Micropolis controller for the latter)
Well - now that the discussion has turned to disk drives and such I would like
to ask in general (not necessarily to Tony in particular): where might I be
able to find either an ESDI or a SCSI controller for the Q22 bus in a
MicroVAX II? Shop names and addresses in the Bay area would be especially
helpful but I am perfectly happy to look elsewhere (even DEC). Alas, the
recently mentioned organization with a web page at http://www.dda.org/dda.html
apparently does not list any hardware (not even if you "subscribe"(?)).
Thanks to the efforts of a member of this list I am now the extremely happy
owner of a uVAX II with three RD53 bootable drives (Ultrix 1.2, 2.1, &&
VMS 5.4 - the latter (c) 1990 and not strictly classic software :=}). At any
rate, I would like to up the disk capacity of the machine by a fair amount and
install a decent C compiler (Under VMS I am currently limited to DCL and MACRO
as the only programming languages - oddly I have both FORTRAN and PASCAL verbs
in my DCLTABLES but no such images under SYS$SYSROOT.)
A big thanks to this list for information already provided as well as that
anticipated.
Peter Prymmer
I have a Heathkit H-8 computer in working order with documentation,
software, terminal (H-19), disk drives that I no longer use. I'd like
to find someone who can make good use of this equipment.
It would be helpful if you can handle shipping costs but everything is
negotiable.
If you are interested, please send email or call 408-881-3489.
--Bill Hall
Anybody got manuals or hints for the S-BUG and DELABS monitor ROMs?
I scored a SwTPC 69/A today that has both of these, but I only
sorta remember S-BUG from way-back-when, and have never even heard
of DELABS.
To jiggle your memories, here are some of the S-BUG commands that
I remember/figured-out today:
^A - set accumulator A
^B - " " B
etc. for other registers
G - go to address in PC
R - show registers
S - show stack
D - boot from disk (?)
E - examine memory
P - punch (motorola S19 format memory dump)
As for the DELABS ROM, it seems to be involved with the EPROM burner.
I suspect it can read & write EPROMs, and maybe up/download binaries
over one of the serial ports. But I've only figured out a few of its
commands:
D - memory hex dump
F - fill memory
I suppose I'll end up disassembling them both eventually, but hints
could make the job much easier, and maybe unnecessary.
Thanks!
Bill.
] You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd
] rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a reasonably
] efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a
] landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away
] under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them
] scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice....
Imagine this, fifty years from now, a web of nanotech bots climbing
through and mapping a landfill, finding antique treasures, maybe getting
enough chemical data to reconstruct the things before decay set in...
I'd vote for the landfill over the slag heap any day. Of course, my
basement, when I get one, will be the best option.
] Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
Bill.
Until it fills up.
At 10:42 AM 1/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
>I have an Integral, but it's ROM just has the HP-UX kernel and PAM --
>just enough to boot and run things. So I have /usr/bin (Unix
>utilities, C compiler, &c) on a 9134 for when I actually want to do
>something with it.
Are you saying that there is no internal hard drive int the IPC? Wierd.
Okay, so since I'd love to have one, let me ask this in advance: Has anyone
come up with an HP-IB (IEEE-488?) to SCSI or IDE adapter? It would be great
to tack a little 3.5" (or even 2.5") hard drive on the side. Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
Hi, I just picked up an Altair 8800a. It has a North Star disk drive
controller in it. I think it uses a Shugart Sa400 drive. Does anyone know
if it uses a hard sectored or soft sectored disk? Where can I find a SA
400? I know they were very common in the old computers. I have access to a
lot of old computers (old Tandys, Commodores and other stranger things.)
Can anyone tell me which ones migh t have a SA 400 drive? Yes, Yes, I know
you're all going to be PO'd that I would use one of those old machines for
parts, but I've offered them to people over and over and no one is
interested unless I PAY them to take them.
Joe
Qedit
> is an incredible editor while MPEX extends the capabilities of the OS.
Yeah, but they want something like $90 for it! I found another, that's free
(even has spell check). Will send to anyone on request.
manney(a)nwohio.com
John Higginbotham <higginbo(a)netpath.net> wrote:
> They run blindingly fast,
>making them utterly worthless unless you use one of those slowdown utils,
>but most of those only run right on 486s.
Again, there must be a market for better emulation / slowdown software.
There should be a way to put the Pentium in an 8008 compatibility mode. :-)
>>Three, that ancient games don't "hurt" today's software market. Doing what?
>
>Doing what? Being available for "free" (illegally) out there for people to
>get to them. The fact that people are still playing them doesn't affect
>today's game market at all.
Yes, the sales of old software might be a very small fraction of mainstream
games, so small as to have no effect - but I don't like to play fast-and-loose
with self-created and self-serving notions of "it's not hurting anyone" when
it comes to intellectual property issues.
>But repackaging the games and shipping them would up the price to at least
>$10.00 a piece,
Maybe the net and micropayments will help. Or in this case, a web site
with do-it-yourself downloading of $10 bundles of 20 old games might
satify both the developers and the funding of the site. Shareware is
a *sure* way to gather no cash, especially with a dusty product like this.
Being afflicted with entrepreneur's disease, I've toyed with the
idea of this as a business: collecting up the distribution rights
for old software, bundling them on CD, adding emulators, and selling
for reasonable prices, etc. to recreate the old computer experience.
As they say, they're not making any more "retro." :-)
The hard parts would be finding the rightful owners, forging
acceptable contracts with each, and without giving them the impression
that millions are to be made. Or in some cases, if the companies
that owned the products are truly *gone*, to be willing to take
the risk they wouldn't sue you if you assumed you could distribute.
Apropo the other thread about today's tendency to throw out 486s...
as-is, they still run yesterday's games, word processors, educational
apps, etc. for schools, libraries, senior centers, day care centers, etc.
It's such a shame this stuff isn't being reused. A 486/33 with
8 megs and Linux makes a perfectly acceptable firewall.
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
<Apropo the other thread about today's tendency to throw out 486s...
<as-is, they still run yesterday's games, word processors, educational
<apps, etc. for schools, libraries, senior centers, day care centers, etc
<It's such a shame this stuff isn't being reused. A 486/33 with
<8 megs and Linux makes a perfectly acceptable firewall.
Sheesh,
I consider my good system with bells and whistles hot and it's a lowly
486DX2/50 with 8meg and 516mb disk! The next ones down from there is a
386dx/33(128k cache) and a 486sx/25(no cache). Scary that I consider
what I have pretty adaquate (I run Gcadd, Netscape3+, and a few other
heavies).
Allison
