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101090 discussions

archiving history (was: Tektronix Workstations

by manney＠nwohio.com

> So, I'll offer to host and html-ize any stuff like this anyone wants to send > me. Just dump it (any kind of: history, folklore, specs, special commands, > secret codes, easter eggs, power supply voltages, etc.) in an e-mail and > send it to me at <roger(a)sinasohn.com> and I'll get it on-line. (It won't > necessarily be beautiful, but it will be useable.) Great idea. The manuals may survive, but the folklore that's batted about this -- and other discussion groups -- is as ephemeral as it is precious. My grandkids are (i hope) gonna want to know what it felt like to sit at a keyboard, to write a program, to swap out a drive...

28 years, 3 months

operating systems

by higginbo＠netpath.net

At 06:20 PM 1/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >Well, frogger is a good example of why not. I see they're bringing it out >again. Okay, so you own a new computer, maybe a P200 mmx and you have this old copy of frogger, from your XT days... If this old copy gets out on the internet or elsewhere, is it going to affect sales of the new Frogger version? I've seen screen shots of this new game... It's alot different, majorly different than the older versions. Alot of 3d stuff going on in there. Now say someone finds that copy of frogger on the internet and downloads it to play on his XT. How does this affect the sale of the new version? You could technically say it does, because if this XT user really wanted the new version of frogger, he'd have a major upgrade path ahead of him, maybe as much as 20 times as the new frogger game costs. >Copyrights are what? 37 years? As someone who produces intellectual >property (Photos and -- occasionally -- software), I appreciate copyright >protection. Sure, I have no problem with recent software protection, but in this case, the game isn't even being sold in it's original form anymore, running on computers that aren't made anymore. Maybe if software companies would take these old titles and put them up on the internet, maybe take online orders for them and charge a very low cost for the games, maybe around $1.00, people might just buy them instead of making "illegal" copies of them. But they don't. Most companies don't even offer support for software that old. I've had that happen numerous times when I'd try to contact a company to get a replacement disk for one that went bad. No dice. Some of the people answering the phone didn't even know they had published the game. - John Higginbotham - limbo.netpath.net

28 years, 3 months

The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61

by manney＠nwohio.com

I have a couple of junk Model 30's if anyone... My vote goes to the Model 25 as the most horrid computer PC of all time. Unexpandable, impossible to work on. Ick! manney(a)nwohio.com

28 years, 3 months

C-64c, How common?

by manney＠nwohio.com

> I'm starting to wonder about how common the C-64c is. I have yet to see > one, I picked up the manuals when a favorite bookstore had a set a few > months back. Then last weekend I was at the bookstore and they had like 3 > or 4 sets of manual. But like I said I've never seen an actual computer! > > Functionally are they any different from a standard 64? No. I have 3 of 'em. (Nyaah Nyaah! :) Ya want one? manney(a)nwohio.com

28 years, 3 months

Geoworks

by manney＠nwohio.com

Zeus334(a)aol.com, who are you? My mail bounced back. I have both Geoworks and Geos. manney(a)nwohio.com

28 years, 3 months

VUPs to MIPS

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I'm not that well up in modern processor design, but I've never heard of <that definition. In fact the ARM becomes CISC by it, I think (?). That was part of the mid 80s def, but by no means an exclusive item. The ARM used more clocks but not many. The early defininition was simply Reduced Instruction Set and raw speed to make up for it. A PDP-8 would qualify in many respects as it has about the smallest useful instruction set going. It's biggest feature is the lack of complexity that allowed CPUs like the ARM and MIPS to be very fast as they were very simple compared to say the 386, the result was the amount of silicon required was less and production costs are lower. Some side effects of the smaller die(fewer transistors) were improved testability, lower power and less heat with attendant higher relibility. Most smaller RISC chips are 10s of thousands of transistors compared to millions in most of the CISC designs. Allison

28 years, 3 months

VUPs to MIPS

by jfoust＠threedee.com

It would be interesting to attempt to graph the MIPS/VUP/MIPS/Whetstones/etc. of ancient and contemporary computers, using some approximation of comparable units. It would be fun to recognize that, say, one of my old computers was just as fast as an IBM AT, but was available five years before. - John

28 years, 3 months

YA UN*X for DEC MIPS

by pvhp＠forte.com

classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Subj: YA UN*X for DEC MIPS It seems there is/may-be yet another unix workalike for DEC MIPS machines.

28 years, 3 months

sale in Portland this weekend

by jfoust＠threedee.com

I got an e-mail from InnFoGraphics Warehouse Liquidation, of a sale January 10 and 11, 733 SE 9th Ave. (Upstairs), Portland, OR 97214 with : "Chieftan S50, S100, Morrow, Altos, Nec, XORI, Kaypro, Xerox, Mindset, OSM Zeus, DEC computers, 11/73, 11/44, Vax 11/730, HSC50, RA60, TU 81 Plus, RA 81s, 486 & 386 PCs" etc. and lots more radio / TV / electronics, see <http://members.aol.com/innfograph/index.htm> for more info. - John

28 years, 3 months

OLD PC's

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 09:11 PM 1/8/98 +0300, you wrote: >The problem with this guies theroies: In this 3rd world country, schools >have MMX machines. Perhaps, but is that: a) Schools for dependents of US citizens working for US companies in Bahrain, b) local schools in an wealthy country (i.e., the government is wealthy even if the citizenry isn't) c) only the schools located in the major cities? In the philippines, it ain't true. Heck, my girlfriend's sister-in-law's family doesn't even have a telephone. There is a company here in San Francisco that ships hundreds (if not thousands) of older PC's and such overseas *everyday*. They're huge, and it's really an amazing operation. And yes, they occassionally get some classic computers worth saving. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 3 months

HP3000 editor (was: Frank knows his stuff)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 05:22 PM 1/6/98 -0500, you wrote: > Qedit >> is an incredible editor while MPEX extends the capabilities of the OS. > >Yeah, but they want something like $90 for it! I found another, that's free >(even has spell check). Will send to anyone on request. If Qedit for the HP3000 is only $90, you'd be well off to purchase it! Especially if you're planning on any kind of development. On the other hand, I believe there is a PC editor with the same name (unrelated and not as good.) (Best Windows editor I've seen is Programmer's File Editor -- $0, and the guy wouldn't take money when I wanted to send him some! This is off topic, email me for details.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 3 months

Mac IIci, was [Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61]

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 07:47 PM 1/7/98 EST, you wrote: >I like the IIcis. They're cute little things. Pretty fast, too. The only The IIci is probably my favorite classic mac (other than the portable, perhaps). Great case, compact and easy to work on. Built-in video too. >years. They have two problems. One is that the monitors power up >intermittently, probably due to the transformer. Ideas? The other is the disk The monitor is separate, kinda irrelevant to the CPU. If the monitor is bad, just get a new monitor. (they can, as someone mentioned, run a VGA monitor with the right adapter.) >drives. They were all blown out with compressed air, but still didn't start >working correctly. Ideas? I assume you mean the floppy drives. Again, they can be replaced, although mac floppy drives aren't cheap. Depending on your exact situation, you can often get away without a working floppy. (If you mean the hard drive, that's even easier; it's a standard 3.5" scsi drive.) The IIci can run a CD-ROM drive, connect to the internet, and do just about anything you'd like. Rachel's got 3 (I think) of them in her classroom, plus one at home (her first computer, now her niece's). --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 3 months

Seeking info on a PA63 unit

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

Ok, here's an odd one... In a recent stack of items that I picked up, I came across a chassis with a status indicator panel suggesting that it was some type of reader/punch controller, and an id tag reading "Model PA63". It is obviously a DEC unit, but I've never seen any information on such a thing that I can recall. A more or less DEC standard looking wire wrapped backplane, standard 19 inch chassis about 6 inchec tall, and three fans. No power supply, but a large cable off of the backplane that looks like it was intended to connect to an external supply. Status displays for reader and punch data and status, and a reader and punch 'unit select' display. I keep thinking that if it turns out to be interesting, I might want to restore it and install it on one of my systems. But, I'll need some info and a set of prints to make any headway. Anyone familiar with this beast? -jim --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

28 years, 3 months

OLD PC's

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

The problem with this guies theroies: In this 3rd world country, schools have MMX machines. -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence T. Mathison <LMATHISON(a)BCPS.ORG> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 5:40 PM Subject: OLD PC's >The Baltimore County Public Schools have 100's of old (286 & earlier) PC >that need a disposal outlet. We are looking for companies that buy old >machines for resale in third-world countries. Any info that you have >that will help us to identifiy companies in this business will be >greatly appreciated. Larry Mathison (410) 887-7838, >LMATHISON(a)BCPS.ORG. > >

28 years, 3 months

FW: IBM Magnetic cards

by engine＠chac.org

From: Kimberley Weathers <kweather(a)bcm.tmc.edu> Subject: IBM Magnetic cards I work at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, in their archives. I found these cards are shaped like a punch card, but look like a floppy diskette without the cover. They're from about 1976, and I can't find anyone, not even at IBM, to read them. Any ideas? I know that after all this they may not even work, but it's worth a try, because this looks like important info. Any suggestions? Thank you, Kimberley Weathers kweather(a)bcm.tmc.edu __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine(a)chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California

28 years, 3 months

Tektronix 6132 workstations

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<From CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Thu Jan 8 15:08:02 1998 ^^^^^ <Do you mean a National Semi 32000 class cpu? Kewl. Boy, those were <hot, hot, hot when they hit the market in the early 80's. National <did everything right on this one: Full object code compatibility <between the 8,16 and 32 bit versions of the device; truly orthogonal <instruction set, and so on. Mondo cool. It also was THE FIRST true <32-bit cpu on the market (according to an EDN magazine article). Look at that one and then look at VAX... the similarity is very strong. <Did I say National did everything right? Yes. Well, depends on how <you look at it. You couldn't run dos or CP/M on it. This, I <suppose, was it's fatal 'flaw' (although I am of the opinion that <that such compatibility would be a major DEFECT, but never mind). The problem was it was late and only the slow ones with no second source. <That and National didn't market the device very well, although <it was used in alot of embedded applications. I wonder how much <further it would have gone, had the free Unices we have today been <available back then . . . . The lack of OS support, lack of a perceived need for 32bits, late entry into the market, poor marketing and the 808x and 68k being both well embedded in the market were factors that could not be missed. Allison

28 years, 3 months

C-64c, How common?

by lfb107＠psu.edu

At 11:23 PM 8/8/97 -0700, Cord Coslor wrote: >I have a C64c, although I haven't found them to be very common. This unit may >be for sell as well if anyone is looking for one. Also, I too found a C64 in a >third party case that looked just like the c-64... and it also was made in >Australia. I can get this for anyone that might want this unit as well. Let me >know. > >CORD COSLOR I have heard that there were about 1 million of these produced with about 3 different subtle kinds made. (Different LED's, new vs old style keyboards, etc.) Of course, compared to the 9+ million 64's produced I guess that means that 64c's are *relatively* uncommon. Les

28 years, 3 months

Tektronix 6132 workstations

by IVIE＠cc.usu.edu

><Do you mean a National Semi 32000 class cpu? Kewl. Boy, those were ><hot, hot, hot when they hit the market in the early 80's. National ><did everything right on this one: Full object code compatibility ><between the 8,16 and 32 bit versions of the device; truly orthogonal ><instruction set, and so on. Mondo cool. It also was THE FIRST true ><32-bit cpu on the market (according to an EDN magazine article). > >Look at that one and then look at VAX... the similarity is very strong. I don't know; I didn't see it. To me, a processor architecture is hung off the register structure and how the registers are used. When I read the introductory chapters of the NS32 book, I got all excited, but when I actually waded through the description of the machine I felt let down. The thing about the VAX is that the entire machine is built around the general purpose register set. Things that are special in other architectures (immediate values, pushing and popping the stack) are simply side effects of everyday addressing modes on the VAX. You can pop things from the stack because you can pop them from any register; MOV R0,(R1)+ works just as well as MOV R0,(SP)+. Immediate values are fundamentally popping things from the PC: MOV R0,(PC)+. The NS32K required special address modes for these operations because SP and PC weren't general purpose registers. I'm also not impressed by folks who claim that a 68000 is a whole lot like a PDP-11 for the same reason... Roger Ivie ivie(a)cc.usu.edu

28 years, 3 months

How does microcode work??

by IVIE＠cc.usu.edu

> Inutitively I know what microcode is. I think of it as hard-coded ROM >for the instruction fetch unit of the microprocessor. Since I haven't been >formally schooled in computer science or microprocessor design, I'd like to >understand (in 500 words or less <g>) how microcode works, i.e., how is it >implemented and how does the microprocessor access it. The problem is that doing it right takes a picture... A computer is built from (among other things) a whole grundle of state machines. A state machine is a circuit that, at each clock cycle, uses some number of inputs and its current state and uses them to generate some number of outputs. The current state is a set of outputs that are fed back into the machine; that is, they are outputs that become inputs to the "next state generator", the logic which figures out what the outputs should be at the next clock. The next state generator is a complex piece of logic, especially for a machine with a lot of states; the next state generator for a state machine with, say, 256 states has 8 inputs just for the state variables! Designing the next state generator for a state machine as complex as the control unit of a CPU is very difficult and error-prone. Microcode is simply a technique which replaces the logic of the next state generator with a ROM. The inputs (including the current state) are fed into the address of the ROM and the data from the ROM are taken to be the outputs for the next state. Instead of implementing the logic by tossing around gates, you implement the logic by building a lookup table in the microcode ROM. Roger Ivie ivie(a)cc.usu.edu

28 years, 3 months

The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 98-01-07 20:19:54 EST, you write: << David, how cheap did you gotten some of these parts through this mail list? Model 77? I do not know this specs, kindly tell me what about this? :) My book does not list this Model 77. >> as far as the ps2 models i own go, my brother gave me the two model 30s. the place where he used to work at had round filed them, so he rescued them for me. the 8086 model was complete with a 4869 floppy drive and 8503 monitor! works great and had data on it dated up to 1991. the model 77 is a premium class ps2 machine announed in 1993 or 1994 i think so doesnt really apply to discussion here although it has mca architecture with is 10 years old. mine is a 9577-ouf which is a 486sx 33. full scsi, 2.88 floppy. 2-400 meg scsi drives and 16 meg which is max i think. i found a mca scsi adaptor at a radio rally for $1. tests ok, but its not a caching controller. this ps2 could support as many scsi drives as there are drive letters to support them, btw. david

28 years, 3 months

Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s

by manney＠nwohio.com

> > MFM (early 80's?) > > Very early 80's, I think, for the ST-506. > > > RLL (late 80's?) > > I tend to think of this as a minor variation of MFM, myself :-) Not quite. The interface is the same (ST-506/412), but the encoding is different. RLL-encoded ST-506/412 drives were finicky, especially as regards temperature -- you shouldn't LLF them cold, for example. Actually, some (if not all) IDE's use variations of RLL encoding.

28 years, 3 months

The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61

by scottk5＠ibm.net

One of the best sources for used parts for PS/2's I've found is Skip Paret in Florida. (skip(a)bcp.mhs.compuserve.com) His company is Business Computer Products: phone: (voice) 904-760-9300 (fax). Also since I collect PS/2's I have found the newsgroup comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware to be an excellent source of parts and info. There you will also find that amazing German, Peter Wendt, quite possibly the world's greatest living authority on PS/2's! And there is also quite a stash of them downstairs, mostly Model 25's, 30's. 55's, 50Z's, 70's, and 80's. A lot of the auxiliary parts from model 80's will work on the 70's. so if there is something in particular you need, please let me know. Kirk Scott scottk5(a)ibm.net On 1998-01-08 Tim said: >Well, I've found a source of PS/2 parts/systems, but it'll cost. >It's a company. They seem to have tons of the stuff. Their URL is >http://www.kahlon.com . The problem is that they list(ed) a Model >55SX as $249, but that did include a monitor. Well, you could >probably say that you collect classics and that that price is way >out of whack, but that might not work.... >Tim D. Hotze Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive

28 years, 3 months

Tektronix Workstations

by Bill_von_Hagen＠transarc.com

Tektronix made a number of interesting UN*X workstations (their flavor was called UTek) in the early/mid eighties, finally hanging it up around 1990 after releasing a Motorola 88K-based machine called the XD88 series. Earlier Tek workstations were the Magnolia, the 4XXX series, the 613X series, and the 6205. The 6205 and 6130 were based on the National Semiconductor 32032 processor - the 6130 was a desk-top that actually made it to market. The 6205 was a floor-standing "tower" version that was faster and more expandable, but which never sriously made it to the commercial market, as far as I know. The 43XX and 44XX boxes were very cool, too - these ran UTek or Smalltalk. As with all Tek products, all of these systems had fantastic graphics for their time. I have various of these machines (6205, 6132, etc.). I can probably copy some docs for you if you'd like. Let me know. Bill The following is some info about these that I collected from someone who worked at Tektronix during the time: The Magnolia was a proof-of-concept design, built in small quantities for internal use only. It had two 68000 processors, one for general use, and one for display only. It was a floor-standing cube about 18" per side. I believe it ran BSD Unix and used VME cards. My guess is there were some 20-50 built. My understanding is that the design was not easily "productized," meaning EL approval, inexpensive, etc. It had some custom hybrid ICs in it that apparently cost a mint to make. The Magnolia people and the 6000-line people were at war over processors and OS's. The 6000 line eventually lost -- the Magnolia people eventually produced the 4000-line, which were based on Motorola processors and an awful UNIX clone called Uniflex. Once the 6000-line died, it became politically possible to port UTek to the 4000-line boxes, and their names changed. Here's a quick run-down (somewhat chronological): Magnolia -- Tek-internal-only, integrated bitmap display, dual 68000, BSD Unix, VME?. 6205 -- only a few sold, Futurebus, NS32032, integrated display subsystem never really worked. 6130 -- NS32032 desk-top, not expandable, integrated display subsystem never really worked terribly well, usually used with a serial console. 4404 -- 68000, all-in-one with integrated 15" monochrome display, Uniflex OS. 4406 -- 68202, all-in-one with integrated 19", 4-bit gray display, Uniflex OS. Extremely sharp, but short-lived, internally produced CRT -- I'd be amazed if any of these are still working. The displays regulary started getting dim about a month after the warranty expired. 4407 -- same as 4406, but with a Hitachi color monitor. 4404+ -- internal-only, the 4404 with a 68010 daughtercard and MMU so it can run UTek. 4315 -- 4404 package with a 68020 processor, UTek. 4316 -- 4406 with minor changes, running UTek. Same dismal CRT. 4317 -- 4407 with minor changes, running UTek. It's been a while, some of these numbers might be off by a digit or so...

28 years, 3 months

Tektronix 6132 workstations

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

>><I've got a line on a Tektronix 6132 workstations, and I'm wondering what >><exactly it is. According to the current owner it runs Berkeley UNIX ver >><4.2 with some 4.3 extensions. Apparently it's been sitting in a closet >><unused for the last 8 years, so who knows if it's working. He also >><referred to it as a UTek workstation. >>< >><I didn't even know Tek made any computers, and web searches bring up zilc >> >>Look inside it may be a DEC PDP-11 series machine in differnt garb. >> >>Allison > >Ack, don't get my hopes up! Sounds like I'll have to arrange to pick this >beast up sooner than expected :^) Um. I'm not familiar with the Tek 6000 series at all, although the description "Workstation" makes me suspect that it's not a PDP. (That is purely a guess - I shall be happy to be proven wrong) In the late 1970s and early '80s Tek made the 4050 series. These were almost workstations - personal machines built around a vector storage CRT. The 4051 (earliest) seems to have used a 6800 micro as its CPU. This was replaced in the 4052 and 4054 by a bitslice machine which appeared to be a 25 MHz 6800-alike with some extra instructions. Fun machines. I have a 4052, BTW. Recent web searches, researching a talk I was giving on these machines, did indeed bring up practically nothing - all I discovered was that the Dutch computer museum also has a 4052, Hans Pufal's list mentions them, and that a company I had once met in a quite different context started life making software for these machines. Otherwise, no results from any search engine I tried. (The Tektronix site has narry a mention) So, when you do get hold of this, please tell us all about it. Philip.

28 years, 3 months

How does microcode work??

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Inutitively I know what microcode is. I think of it as hard-coded RO <for the instruction fetch unit of the microprocessor. Since I haven't bee <formally schooled in computer science or microprocessor design, I'd like <understand (in 500 words or less <g>) how microcode works, i.e., how is i <implemented and how does the microprocessor access it. Microcode: In the simplest form it's the control program that runs the CPU. Every computer has it's instructions set, most we know like ADD A,B or MOV A,B. Those are called MACROinstructions. Microcode is the internal coding to actually create the sequence of timing pulses to actually make the ADD happen. The microcode resides in it own storage area and is generally inaccessable (there are exceptions). A typical sequence would be in english: macro instruction: ADD A,B Add contents of register A to register B and place results in A Start: Fetch an instruction (uses program counter register as address or source and destination is the "instruction register). Jump to address @I (use the instruction register as an address of the next microinstruction.) ADD: -signal add instruction to ALU -gate A register to ALU -gate B register to ALU -store ALU to A register (this could al be in one microinstruction or it could be a sequence of several.) jump to START (get next MACROinstuction) NOTE: microcoding is one way to construct a computer control, sequential logic is also possible but as the machines increase in complexity the logic complexity grows to sometimes implementable levels or becomes hard to correct if there is an error. Microcoding makes error correction easier and if new instruction need to be added it's possible if the code space exists. It's also easier to create a machine on paper or as a program that executes microcode to test it. Allison

28 years, 3 months

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