I started a lot of debate when I wrote:
> Worth a try then. But am I right in thinking that the AT doesn't
> implement all the 286 modes properly? I'm sure the XT286 doesn't.
The two rumours I had heard are thus:
1. The AT had been deliberately set up so that it couldn't make one of
the transitions between modes - IBM were being paranoid and thinking of
crackers having a back door - but this "feature" was removed in the
PS/2.
This is obviously a garbled version of the things you've all been
telling me about 286s and the AT having to reset itself from time to
time. Thank you for clearing this up.
2. Intel had a fault on a large batch of 286s that couldn't do some of
the things you'd expect. IBM bought a job lot on the cheap and stuck
them in XT286s.
Can anyone tell me the origin of this latter rumour? Has it now been
discredited?
BTW What is Warp? Is it the OS/2 windowing system? If so, why would I
want to use it at all, let alone on a 286? ;-)
Philip.
PS *** Off Topic ***
I stand corrected. Uncle Roger is quite right about triangular manhole
covers. However I don't know whether this still holds up (pun intended)
if you have rounded corners and a thickness that is not negligible as
well as the lip to support the cover in its normal position.
I don't intend to try it to find out. Whoever posted that rather silly
message about System/36 was right - this discussion has probably gone on
too long.
I will leave you with a thought: Make the cover a triangle, but with
the sides arcs of circles centred on the opposite corner. (This works
for any odd number of sides, like the 50p coin I mentioned earlier)
P.
Does anyonehave the numbers to enter for an RD54 to put in a MicroVAX 2000?
II think I need the actual h/c/s numbers rathert than the MSCP ones in disktab...
The RD53 is full of errors, and this '54 seems to be woorking fune, so I'll LLF it and see about installing.
-------
>And you'll have to pardon my ignorance of the Intel parts after the 8085,
>but why wouldn't a 386 work if the 486 works? (Other than the speed
>difference.) It has always been my impression that few OS's/applications
>need whatever extra software features that differentiate the 486 from the
386.
I believe the 486 was supposed to be just a 386 with a built-in math
co-processor. Then Intel came out with the 486SX. Which was really just a
broken DX, a 486 in which the built-in math co-processor didn't work.
-- Kirk
At 08:36 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>> Also, what's a fair price for a Coleco Adam system: 2 keyboards, memory
>> box with datacassette drives, external numeric keypad with knob (paddle?),
>> and printer.
>
>$25 - $30 as long as it works.
I have to disagree here... I'd say $50-75, possibly as high as $100 with
the extra parts, depending on how badly one wants one. (Again, assuming
it's working.) Mind you, that's what I'd feel comfortable selling it,
wihtout feeling like I'd ripped someone off. I don't know if I'd pay that
much right now, but catch me in a good month...
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
Some things that I would like to find are an Apple //e system, a copy of
Networks II BBS, and a copy of Nexus BBS. I'm pretty sure that along my
travels I will eventually find the Apple //e but I don't know if I have a
chance of finding either piece of software.
I've done a lot of searching on the web, but I haven't found anything.
Does anyone have what I'm looking for, or are there any resources I may
be missing?
Thanks,
Mike
<On the 1802: Did COSMAC VIP actually stand for something?
COSMAC VIP was a packaged game machine that could also run simple
programs using a very tiny interpreter (512 bytes) called CHIP-8.
I have the manuals for one along with other 1802 docs and a few 1802s.
Strange chip but made a fair stack machine.
Allison
With this news, one of my first thoughts was that if Compaq intends
to make money by selling its servers to DEC customers, software
emulators of old DEC systems suddenly become very, very important!
- John
Well, here are the genuine system requirements for Windows 3.0 -- I'm pretty
sure these are correct, since I wrote this KnowledgeBase article back in
1990 :)
If you know how to get the secret credit screen, you can see my name on
there...
Let me know if you have any other ancient Windows questions.
Kai
Windows 3.0 Modes and Memory Requirements [win3x]
ID: Q58317 CREATED: 31-JAN-1990 MODIFIED: 21-NOV-1994
3.00 3.00a
WINDOWS
PUBLIC | kbdisplay
SUMMARY
=======
This article contains information on the processor and memory requirements
for the three different operating modes of Microsoft Windows version 3.0.
These modes are real mode (similar to Windows/286 versions 2.x), 286
standard mode (also known as 286 protected mode), and 386 enhanced mode
(also known as 386 protected mode).
MORE INFORMATION
================
WIN.COM automatically starts up Windows 3.0 in the proper mode for the
configuration. However, Windows may be forced into one of the three
modes through the following command-line switches:
Switch Mode
------ ----
WIN /R Real mode
WIN /S or WIN /2 Standard mode
WIN /3 Enhanced mode
Notes
-----
1. All numbers below are approximate and may vary widely depending
on the configuration -- for example, Windows device drivers chosen,
DOS version, display adapter, etc.
2. 128K of extended memory is recovered from shadow RAM usage on
COMPAQ 386 machines.
3. Memory requirements take into account memory that can be recovered
from SMARTDrive (down to the minimum cache size specified).
Real Mode Requirements
----------------------
1. The requirements for WIN.COM to automatically start up in real mode
are as follows:
a. 8088 processor or above
b. 384K of free conventional memory (393,216 bytes reported by
CHKDSK)
2. The actual real mode requirements are the same as above.
Standard Mode Requirements
--------------------------
1. The requirements for WIN.COM to automatically start up in standard
mode are as follows:
a. 80286 processor or above
b. 192K of free extended memory
c. HIMEM.SYS loaded in the CONFIG.SYS file
2. The actual standard mode requirements are as follows:
Standard mode conventional/extended memory requirements are
mutually dependent and are not fixed. A typical installation
requires a minimum of 128K free at the DOS prompt to run standard
mode, assuming sufficient extended memory is free. Standard mode
requires between 384K and 512K combined conventional and extended
memory to run (approximately).
For example, if only the minimum 192K of extended memory is free,
approximately 322K of conventional is required to run standard
mode. However, if available extended is increased to approximately
208K or greater, only 128K of conventional is required. This
example is intended to illustrate that the memory requirements are
an interrelated, variable issue.
Enhanced Mode Requirements
--------------------------
1. The requirements for WIN.COM to automatically start up in enhanced
mode are as follows:
a. 80386 processor or above
b. 1024K of free extended memory
c. HIMEM.SYS loaded in the CONFIG.SYS file
2. The actual enhanced mode requirements are as follows:
See notes for standard mode, above, relating to the
interrelationship of conventional/extended requirements. A typical
installation requires a minimum of 182K free at the DOS prompt to
run enhanced mode, assuming sufficient extended memory is free.
Enhanced mode requires between 580K and 624K combined conventional
and extended memory to run (approximately).
Note that enhanced mode is able to start up in low-memory
situations only because it provides virtual memory support;
although enhanced mode may run in such situations, it may be
extremely slow due to the large amount of disk swapping it must
perform.
============================================================================
====
Created_by: KAIKAL Edit_review: DANAS Edited: 01-FEB-1990
Modified_by: DAVIDE Tech_review: RANDOW Reviewed: 23-FEB-1990
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lfb107(a)psu.edu [SMTP:lfb107@psu.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 1998 9:11 PM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Win 3.0
>
>
> I might be mistaken, but I somehow recall that someone said that
> it was possible to run windows 3.0 on an XT???
>
> A buddy of mine gave me an unopened box of v3.0 but the back
> says it requires a 286.
>
> So whats the deal?
>
> Les
I might be mistaken, but I somehow recall that someone said that
it was possible to run windows 3.0 on an XT???
A buddy of mine gave me an unopened box of v3.0 but the back
says it requires a 286.
So whats the deal?
Les
At 09:46 AM 1/30/98 -0500, Allison J Parent wrote:
>
><I might be mistaken, but I somehow recall that someone said that
><it was possible to run windows 3.0 on an XT???
><
><A buddy of mine gave me an unopened box of v3.0 but the back
><says it requires a 286.
>
>As best we could figure it may be a later version kit that does not have a
>MDA/herc driver or some such. My copy of 3.000A does run on XTs and is
>installed on a DTC turboXT so it runs in my lifetime. I didn't say it
>would be fast. FYI a fast disk really helps.
>
Well, the sticker on the top says that it is version 3.00(3.5) but it does
say that it will support CGA or Hercules so I might be in luck.
Had an AT&T 6300 sitting around and thought it might be neat to run
it on this. It's got an old Micropolis 40 megger on it thats pretty much empty.
(Does anyone else think that the sounds made by old MFM drives is really
cool??) On a different note, the monitor I have is an AT&T model
as well that "shows up" as a CGA but looks a hell of a lot like EGA.
Is it some kind of "Super CGA" that wasn't really supported by anyone?
Les
Speaking of polygonical manholes, does anyone know where to get a copy of
turtle logo for older macs? Or, perhaps even better, a cartridge version
for one of the 6502 machines (Atari, c64, etc.)? (This is for my niece who
is probably about ready to at least watch logo pgms.)
At 01:06 PM 1/29/98 GMT, you wrote:
>indeed round because they then won't fall down the hole if you drop
>them. But other shapes share this property - triangular manholes are
You may have triangular manholes (and, I assume, covers), but I disagree
with the statement that they won't fall in. (Mind you, they may not be
*likely* to, but that doesn't mean they won't.)
Consider any regular (is that the right term?) polygon (i.e., all sides,
angles are equal).
For an odd number of sides: imagine a line from an angle to the midpoint of
the opposite side. Imagine a second line, from that same angle to either
end of the opposite side. You've just created a right triangle (imaginary
lines, half the opposite side) wherein the first imaginary line *must* be
shorter than your second line. Put your first line parallel to the ground,
line up the manhole vertically above the corresponding second line on the
manhole, and drop.
For an even number of sides: Do the same thing, only the reverse (opposite
angle and connected side, etc.)
Oh, make sure there's no one down below before dropping *please*
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
> Also got a strange Commodore cable. It has what looks like a double
> ended HP-IB connector one end and a card edge connector on the other. All
> the connectors have 24 contacts. Both ends have a heavy braided ground
> strap. It looks like it's about 2 foot long. Any one know what this is for?
It is a Commodore PET GPIB (HPIB) cable. Most PETs didn't have the
standard GPIB connector (the 8032SK being the only exception I can call
to mind) but had a 24 pin edge connector instead. The pinout is the
same; pin spacing is 0.156 inch.
The "Parallel User Port" (some useful lines from the 6522 VIA plus some
diagnostic type stuff and video out) was a similar connector with
keyways in different places. The 8032SK used a GPIB type connector for
this as well, which I found very annoying when trying to connect one to
a friend's BBC micro... but I digress.
(BTW can anyone confirm: is 0.156 inch _really_ 0.156 inch or is it 5/32
inch?)
Philip.
<Deal is, you can't run Windows 3.x on any processor that doesn't have
<protected mode. I think the last Windows you could run on an XT was 2.1
Wrong, it was 3.0 and I'm doing it. It was loaded from my diskset so
there is no doubt. Now if you meant it would be slower than sludge
no argument.
Allison
<I might be mistaken, but I somehow recall that someone said that
<it was possible to run windows 3.0 on an XT???
<
<A buddy of mine gave me an unopened box of v3.0 but the back
<says it requires a 286.
As best we could figure it may be a later version kit that does not have a
MDA/herc driver or some such. My copy of 3.000A does run on XTs and is
installed on a DTC turboXT so it runs in my lifetime. I didn't say it
would be fast. FYI a fast disk really helps.
Allison
>I might be mistaken, but I somehow recall that someone said that
>it was possible to run windows 3.0 on an XT???
>
It's not documented and MS never mentioned it, but yes it will work on an
XT.
-- Kirk
At 08:23 PM 1/27/98 +0000, you wrote:
>rather have a service manual that starts 'Take the HDA into a clean room
>and undo the cover screws (#1 in fig 4.2), lift off cover' etc than one
The problem, of course, from the mfr's point of view, is that some bozo is
going to think "hmmm... Larry across the hall has a maid come twice a
month, I'll take it over there and..." and then they have to deal with 1)
repairing/replacing the drive, 2) losing a customer who thinks they should
fix it under warranty.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
>DOH! Did I start off on the IIgs again? I didn't even notice you were
>talking about the II+... THIS is why I shouldn't be allowed to send email
>at 12:30 in the morning!
Don't worry, the feeling is not unfamiliar to me. (Someone mentions IBM, I
start with the RS/6000's, Deep Blue, etc.)
>OK, for the II+, ProDOS is probably what you want. DOS 3.3(I've never seen
this one) >or CP/M(only one I have is my Hayes
>SmartModem 300 disk) are supposed to be around. Do you know how much RAM
>yours has? I have an extra copy of ProDOS(still shrinkwrapped!! I'm not
>sure which version), and it needs more RAM than a stock II+ has. I guess
>whatever a II+ with a memory expansion card would have... I seem to
>remember 64k being on the box. As for the disks, I'm not sure. Try digging
>around at http://www.apple2.org, it should have plenty of info(I know it
>has a link to the csa2 newsgroup FAQ).
OK... well, if I can't find anything else, I'll take the old copy, as I
think that you might want to hang on to the shrinkwrapped copy. I wouldn't
know what it was like, as I wasn't around when it was made. But, anyway,
I'll take the old copy, you can use the new one, as a "liscense", make a
backup copy of the disks, and then everyone's happy. ;-)
Thanks for the help,
Tim D. Hotze
>-JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek
>
>
Yes, I know about the IIGS, it's a pretty nice GUI machine. When I was in
second grade, that's all that they had in my old school. But, I'm not
getting a IIGS, I'm getting a II+, the one that came before the IIe. (I
think) Anyway, is ProDOS the best?
Also, does the Apple ][ juse SS/SD disks? If so, where can I get osme?
Thanks,
Tim D. Hotze
-----Original Message-----
From: John Rollins <rexstout(a)ptld.uswest.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: Apple ][+ OS
>> Hello. I'm going to get one of these >from Jeff Kaneko. One
thing:
>>What OS's are avaible? I tried looking on Apple's site, but didn't
>>really find
>>anything too interesting. What's the one that the most sofware was
written
>>for? Most "standard", and what kind of stuff's avaible for a II+ (I'm
>>sure that
>>that's not a simple question.) Thanks, Tim D. Hotze PS-Does anyone
>>have Apple ][+ disks?
>
>The IIgs will run any Apple II+/IIe OS(ProDOS, DOS 3.3, etc...), or GS/OS
>which is a modified version of MacOS. GS/OS is available on Apple's FTP
>site. The IIgs will also run most Apple II+/IIe software, can use most of
>the Apple II+/IIe expansion cards and floppy drives. Definitley the most
>capable machine in the Apple II line.
>
>-JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek
>
>
At least it's what they appear to be...
Found at a local electronic "computer" store: several
printer cards for what appears to be Apple ][ computers.
(I'm not an Apple person, so I don't know the bus layout.)
The connector is a 50 pin edge-card (25 per side)
and there is a 20 pin header on the board, to which
attaches a companion flat cable with a conventional
Centronics-style 36 pin connector at the end. The cable
is 3 feet long, and it looks like it was meant to
exit the enclosure and plug directly into a printer.
There is an on-board 2716 eprom (I might dump the contents
at work to see if there is any manufacturer info inside.)
There is absolutely no manufacturer name or info on the
board other than what appear to be part numbers (I think):
"APL B" and "SP-201-EP-0" in the silkscreen and "H-002" in
the copper foil. Parts are all SSI (74LS00 series) with
date codes around 1984.
They were free, so if anyone wants one or more, let me know.
All I ask is shipping or "you pick up." I'm in Corvallis,
Oregon.
Oh, and I should say for emphasis: I HAVE NO IDEA IF
THEY WORK and NO WARRANTIES EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED.
Contact me by email if you want them. I don't have any
Apples, so don't have a reason to save them. Just didn't
want to see them dumpstered.
Gary.
Hello.
I'm going to get one of these from Jeff Kaneko. One thing: What OS's are avaible? I tried looking on Apple's site, but didn't really find anything too interesting. What's the one that the most sofware was written for? Most "standard", and what kind of stuff's avaible for a II+ (I'm sure that that's not a simple question.)
Thanks,
Tim D. Hotze
PS-Does anyone have Apple ][+ disks?
I'm behind in my e-mail again...
At 10:09 PM 1/11/98, you wrote:
> I have a bunch of HP 75Ds. I also have the manuals for them. Let me know
>if you need any info about them. What is a HP LS/12 ? I've never heard of
The LS/12 is actually made by Zenith; I think it's a Supersport? Basic
'286 (iirc) PC laptop. I'm working on scanning the photos I've taken;
someday I'll get a web page set up. 8^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
At 09:51 PM 1/29/98 -0600, you wrote:
>be some GREAT surplus stores in San Francisco - saw my only wire recorder
>there as well as some interesting radar equipment, that at the time, I
>thought was still classifed. Years later (88) I couldn't find them.
>Anybody know what happened to them? I think they were on Market street
Hmmm.. There's Kaplan's on Market about 6th; They do mostly
army-surplus-esque camping gear and some uniforms and tenner shoes.
There's another one about between 7th & 8th that (last time I was in) seems
to cater only to the bigger-is-better-in-knives-and-forget-about-quality
crowd. (They're actually probably just about right above me as I type this!)
There used to be a really good one on Mission (one block south) between 7th
& 8th, but they went out of business in the early 80's.
I don't know of any *real* military surplus stores around SF anymore;
though you'd think there would be some, what with Mare Island Naval
ShipYard, Treasure Island, Alameda (Nuclear Wessels!), The Presidio, etc.
There are a few electronics surplus stores around, especially down in the
(silicon) valley.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
Haven't seen this mentioned on the list. The VCF was, of course,
organized by our very own Sam...
--
Hans B. Pufal : <mailto:hansp@digiweb.com>
Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : <http://www.digiweb.com/~hansp/ccc/>
_-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_
Subject: Vintage Computer Festival 01 photo web site!
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:04:16 GMT
From: kenm(a)nospam.csus.edu (Ken Montgomery)
Organization: CSU Sacramento
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers, comp.society.folklore
I wanted to let everyone who watches this group for information about
the history of computing and old computers that I have put up a new page
with lots of photographs taken at the Vintage Computer Festival that was
held on October 25th and 26th 1997, at the Alameda County Fairgrounds in
Pleasanton, California. The Festival was an event held to celebrate
computers and their history. The site is:
<http://members.tripod.com/~km88mph/>
The site contains photographs that I took of the exhibit area and the
sellers area, both were inside the same hall. So check out the page and
drop me line!
I have the following items that have to go:
MAC Plus, good basic system w/key & mouse 1 - 4 meg of mem $10
MAC 512k, monitor fuzzy, but works free with Plus.
External 400k drive for Mac $5
Bernoulli 5mb Removeable drive for Mac $10 (+ Software)
Apple IIe Enhancement kit. (A2M2052) Don't ask me. New in
shrinkwrapped box $5
Northgate DOS 4.0 with Manuals (3 ring) and Covers + Install disks $10
I've got other but that's it for now.
Please keep shipping in mind. If you really need something on this list
or off, please email me off line and I'll see if I can find it.
Thanks,
Mike
At 22:33 1/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I think laptops will be hot collectables, as they are small and often
>clever.
Especially the early color laptops (e. g. NEC Multispeed 386) which very
few people bought. Laptops made out of funny materials -- the magnesium
GRIDs or the Toshibas with carbon-fiber cases. The nicer palmtops (they
can pry my Pofo from my cold dead fingers....) And, of course, several of
the hardened military micros. And the rarer Ataris. And Lisas!!
>>Suns and SGIs, probably. Acorn RISC-PC's, probably. Alphas, again
>>probably.
MIPS. HP Kayaks -- buy now while they're cheap! ;-)
>I say yes to all of these.
Me^2,
__________________________________________
Kip Crosby engine(a)chac.org
http://www.chac.org/index.html
Computer History Association of California
