>
>Actually, very little. Most of the AI researchers in the 70's/early
80's
>were working on one of the following:
>
>1. PDP-10's running a very advanced operating system such as TOPS-20,
What do you mean by "advanced"?
>2. Things such as the Symbolics LISP machine, specifically designed
for
> AI research and with all sorts of spiffy hardware features that
make
> it automatic to do some really nice things (such as actual
machine-level
> "objects" that aren't just locations in memory but are real data
types.
I HATE object oriented stuff. Hate it, hate it, hate it. At least in
C++, Java, and Visual Basic, which have been my only expoures to it.
>Unfortunately, now if you go to a CS department it's rare to see people
>using anything other than generic Unix boxes. This is a crying shame,
as
>Unix was a pretty poor choice of OS's in 1972 (when it was started) and
>on today's big computers it's a much, much poorer choice compared to
>all the OS's developed by advanced research groups in the 70's and
80's.
Well, would any "advanced" OS like TOPS be suitable for modern
machines? Anyone want to be the second Linus Torvalds?
>
>To get a feel of what life was like in a AI lab, you ought to read one
>(or both) of the following:
>
>_The Hacker's Dictionary_, compiled by Eric S. Raymond. (Yes, it is
mainly
>just the jargon file, but there's also essays by Raymond and others
which
>nicely illustrate the AI researcher's "state of mind" in the book.)
>
>_The UNIX-Hater's Handbook_, discusses many OS's developed in the 70's
>and 80's which are far superior to Unix, but never caught on because
they
>weren't "lowest-common-denominator" OS's.
Ironic that now it's the other way around -- we're pushing UNIX-like
stuff like Linux, BeOS and Rhapsody, against DOS, Windows, NT, and
MacOS
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At the risk of getting incinerated, I would like to put in my two bits on
the great MS debate.
You fellows tend to resemble a lot of Grand Prix drivers running down
Fords and Chevvies. What it comes right down to is that there are a whole
bunch of people who are doing useful things with computers who would not be
if they had to depend on the equipment and software that was available
before PC's, Mac's, MS-Dos and Windows.
I saw the same thing with the introduction of self threading 16mm
projectors about twenty five years ago. The National Film Board of Canada
banned them because they chewed up film, but they made it possible for
thousands of teachers to use film in their classes.
Someday possibly we can run our modern computers with an operating system
that comes on one single sided floppy, but until then lets appreciate what
we have.
Cheers
Charlie Fox
>> So STAY ON TOPIC...THE
>> RESTORATION, REAPIR AND USE OF OLD COMPUTERS.
Unless that HTML is running on a Z80 or an F8 I'm not interested
either.
On topic....someone once did an S-100 memory board for Seeq
52B13 EEPROMs (2Kx8, 5v only, 6116 pinout), I think it was a
16KB board, made in the early 1980s. Does anyone have any info
on this board, I don't remember the manufacturer. I have two
hundred 52B13s I just found in the junk closet, thought it would
be neat to have a solid state disk on the old IMSAI. These are
not flash parts, each byte can be individually programmed and
erased.
Jack Peacock
<Text. If the e-mail that you wish to respond to's in plain text, that's
<what it'll send. The problem is that if M$ supports it, the WHOLE WORLD
<suddenly has to all have HTML-ized e-mail readers. It's nice if you hav
<it, but a pain in the A** if you don't.
There is the little matter of some several million (or more) unix(linux,
and related cuzins) systems out there where HTML is far from a standard.
For me and many of the hybrid users HTML means slow, slower and special
utilities to handle it and for what? What a waste of bandwidth.
Allison
A few years ago, I got a Practical Peripherals thing which was
supposed to be a modem. The model number is PM2400SA. It is external.
It dials out, but for some reason, does not connect when the carrier
on the other end starts. Could someone tell me what this thing is?
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>A few years ago, I got a Practical Peripherals thing which was
>supposed to be a modem. The model number is PM2400SA. It is
external.
>It dials out, but for some reason, does not connect when the
carrier
>on the other end starts. Could someone tell me what this thing
is?
>
I think that's a 2400 baud async modem (I had one, sounds like
the same model). If it doesn''t connect, maybe whatever you are
calling doesn't support 2400 anymore, or it's looking for an
error correcting protocol. Make sure you are on factory default
(AT&F if memory serves me right).
Jack Peacock
On 1998-03-14 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk
:I'm almost certain that IE4/outlook express HTMLizes email you send
:from it. there is a way to turn it off, but i dont remember how one
:does it. i'm staying far away from IE4 myself!
make sure you set the "send mail as text only" property somewhere
obscure in the settings.
--
Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling
you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...
Very interesting. Please elaborate. My reasons for disliking OOP
stems from the fact that a Windows app in C++ is much harder to
understand than one in plain non-oop code. Who started oop anyway?
>I'be not tried VB, and almost zero Java, but I had to use Ada for three
years.
> Ada 95 has a lot of OO features (though you needn't use it that way).
It is
>my most unfavourite language. Some of us have described Ada as a
read-only
>language (cf. C as a write-only language).
>
>--
>
>Pete Peter Turnbull
> Dept. of Computer Science
> University of York
>
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>> make sure you set the "send mail as text only" property somewhere
>> obscure in the settings.
>
>Doesn't that shut down HTML for ALL mail though? You'd think a person could
>specify what type messages (easily) to each person individually instead of
>as a whole.--
You CAN. The IE bashing is ill-informed. It's a great product. However,
in specific response to the above, you simply select that mail is responded
to in the format it was sent. Quite simple and obvious.
A
On Mar 16, 9:10, Max Eskin wrote:
> >2. Things such as the Symbolics LISP machine, specifically designed for
> > AI research and with all sorts of spiffy hardware features that make
> > it automatic to do some really nice things (such as actual machine-level
> > "objects" that aren't just locations in memory but are real data types.
> I HATE object oriented stuff. Hate it, hate it, hate it. At least in
> C++, Java, and Visual Basic, which have been my only expoures to it.
I'be not tried VB, and almost zero Java, but I had to use Ada for three years.
Ada 95 has a lot of OO features (though you needn't use it that way). It is
my most unfavourite language. Some of us have described Ada as a read-only
language (cf. C as a write-only language).
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
>>Early MS products were extremely good quality software,
>>particularly compared to their competitors at the time. Tight,
largely
>>bug-free and with well thought-out interfaces (exclude Multiplan, but
>>highlight MS Decathlon).
What is Decathlon? Is there a list of all these products somewhere?
>I have a copy of Microsoft Word for DOS 4.0; looks a lot like
>Multiplan. (A pity!)
I prefer the Word interface to Word Perfect. Less memorizing of strange
function keys
>Barry Peterson bmpete(a)swbell.net
>Husband to Diane, Father to Doug,
>Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan.
>
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>>If you believe Turing, there's nothing an analog computer can comput
>>a digital one can't. A brain is many things: it's wet, it's analog,
>>it's massively parallel. I don't think anybody believes that it's w
>>or analogness that matters, but clearly a high degree of parallel
>>processing seems important to solving perception problems quickly.
This
>>is the basic inspiration that drove Danny Hillis to create the Conne
>>Machine, with 64,000 simple processors working in parallel.
>Perhaps incredibly, Turing _did_ believe that there was something
>special about the brain (in particular he could/would not rule out ES
>and so I don't think he would ever have claimed that a Turing Machine
>could do anything that a human brain could. The TM was designed to
>solve a specific problem in mathematical theory, rather than as a
>theoretical ultimate brain.
>
>But now you've got me trying to think of something that an analog(ue)
>computer can do that a digital one can't. Reversibility might be one
>thing. I guess it's reasonable to argue that digital computers are a
>subset of analogue computers, as transistors are analogue.
>
>I'm going to stop thinking about this before I recurse.
a)If you think about it, a neuron in the brain is very much like an
AND gate or a transistor. It has multiple inputs and needs a certain
amount of electricty across them for its single output to go high.
b)I heard that people are working on computers with transistors so
small, they would be affected by quantum laws, and thus be analog
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After long hoping to get one someday, this weekend I found an
Teletype ASR-33 in a dumpster at the UW-Madison surplus center.
It appears to be working in most respects. In local mode, I was able
to type characters although the ribbon was a bit dry. However, when
it reached the right margin, it would not "return". Line feed works.
The geared belt is tight, and pressing additional characters strains
it and sometimes makes it "chunk" as if it were trying to jump a tooth.
I tinkered with the L-shaped catch on the belt that appears to engage
a lever when the carriage reaches the right side. Right now, this
L-catch is to the left of the lever, which gives me the impression
that it didn't catch the way it was supposed to, and now the machine
is stuck in a position that I need to learn how to free. Any ideas?
The data cable has nine wires to an HP-labelled edge-card connector.
Is this 20 ma current loop? I thought that was just four wires.
How difficult is it to get a service manual for one of these?
Is there a date-code some where on it? Will it read a five-level
Baudot paper tape as well as seven-bit, assuming I can translate
Baudot to ASCII?
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
>
>And I just learned that it was safe to tuch motherboard/cards when your
>computers on! (BTW, any one know aout DIMM stuff?)
> Ciao,
>
>Tim D. Hotze
Actually, I find most precautions such as anti-static and so forth to
be baloney. I must have done every illegal thing in the book, and the
only things I haven't gotten away with was plugging chips in
backwards (by accident). When I was upgrading RAM in the machines in
my school's MacLab, the person in charge of it constantly looked over
my shoulder and bleated, "Touch the case again, Max. I want to SEE you
touch the case. OK, now gently, gently, now. Oooh! Yeesh! DON'T touch
those chips!",etc.etc. I didn't damage anything, but he thinks there
is a problem even with touching the actual plastic case of the chip.
I don't discharge static all over chips, mind you, I just think most
precautions are waay overblown. Or have I just been lucky?
Also, have chips gotten more static-sensitive, or less? Should I be
more careful with a 64 MB DIMM or a 16K chip (cost aside)?
>>Same here but some of the kids may never have heard of a propane
torch!
I'm insulted...
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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
You know Bruce, it's offensive unthinking tirades like yours that make me
want to unsubscribe from this list and throw my classic computers in the
dumpster just so I would no longer have to count myself among your company.
Please give me an insight as to _your_ life's work so that I may call it a
steaming pile of horseshit as well.
Kai
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Lane [SMTP:kyrrin@jps.net]
> Sent: Sunday, March 15, 1998 8:36 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....
>
> First, Tim Shoppa noted...
>
> >contains a plaintext version of the message AND the HTML-ified version,
> >which is what your plaintext email reader is seeing while Eudora and
> >Netscape can pick out the plaintext version.
>
> Then Kip Crosby added...
>
> >That's it. MIME-enabled clients read the MIME part; MSIE4 reads the HTML
> >part; MS-Outlook and Outlook Express I _think_ offer the choice between
> the
> >two. Microsoft no longer considers flat-ASCII mail to be an important
> >fraction of the traffic.
>
> <grrrrrr!>
>
> The more I hear about Billy-boy, and the more I see of his company's
> "products" and arrogant attitudes, the less I like either one! Is there no
> amount of bandwidth waste or code-bloat that Micro$quat won't stoop to?!
>
> I knew there was a reason I'd started to get into Unix boxes.
> Thanks, guys!
>
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272)
> (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net)
> "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our
> own
> human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
On this subject, I'm interested in where CYC fits in. Hasn't the cyc "baby"
been running for a number of years? I really should look this up myself,
shouldn't I? I will.
Cheers
A
>So, the connectionists tried to create machines and structures modeled
>after the brain, but they didn't get too far. Let's say that you build
>an OS and a programming language that allows you to accurately model a
>brain. If you stick a human brain in front of a newspaper, you get
>nothing. So add some input devices and actuators. Now you stick a baby
>in front of a newspaper -- still nothing. So let the baby run for a
>while, experience a variety of sensations, make a whole bunch of
>associations, stick it in front of many newpapers and many non-newspapers
>for many years, and finally you get a pretty good character recognizer.
At 01:31 AM 3/16/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>I just finished watching that Discovery program on Robots and was
>wondering if anyone involved in the list has previously/is currently
>working in that field
>
>Also, does anyone know how much of an influence the use of computer
>systems by all of those AI reasearches in the late 70's/early 80's had on
>system designs? I'd be interested to hear any opinions/anecdotes/etc on
>this stuff.
>
>
>
>Aaron
I just caught the end of that special. I didn't realize that interest in AI
had expired.
Come to think of it, whatever happened to Prolog? I had always planned to
pick up Borland's Prolog and learn it, but I guess it's too late for that now.
Was there just no demand for AI, or has the market just taken the useful
aspects and abandoned the remainder? Isn't the Neural Net technology being
used in various pattern recognition applications (i.e. OCR) descended from
the AI research of the the 70's and 80's?
--
David Wollmann |
dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products.
DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for
IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats.
Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> wrote:
>I know some folks who work at Microsoft and everything they send me from
their
>"work" address is a several-hundred-line MS-Word document that is, of
>course, MIME-encoded. Typically I can decode it and dump the file to
>find the single line of real text that they thought they were sending me.
For those few of us who might also check their Word documents in
binary, you'll find that Word also stores quite a bit of its undo
buffers in the saved document. Yes, no kidding. I've received
letters and contracts from people who didn't realize this.
By studying the binary, you can see their last few revisions. :-)
People often create a "new" letter by revising an old document.
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
I need to unload a lot of things that are taking up way too much room.
In many cases I'm willing to part with large quantities of my items in
exchange for just a single little thing I might need:
Available
---------
1 - Complete working systems and lots of accessories and software for:
Apple II (no systems, just boards, drives, s/w)
Atari 8 bits
Atari 520ST/1040ST (including monitors)
Commodore Vic-20, 64, 128 (including monitors)
TI-99/4A
Tandy TRS-80 CoCo II and III
(Just let me know of anything specific you are looking for)
2 - Commodore SX-64. Missing the carry handle, the keyboard cable
(should be easy to make, I'll pinout the one I have), and the sound is
not working. Picture is good though and other than sound it works fine.
3 - Fairly dirty little Tandy MC-10. Has a substitute 6VDC adapter and
works fine.
4 - Several external SCSI HD (20, 65, 80 Mb models) and SCSI Syquest-44
compatible drive (PLI Infinity). These are all tested and work fine
with my Macs.
5 - Lots of older MPU, MCU, Peripheral, RAM, EPROM chips--some NOS, some
pulls--just inquire.
6 - Some non-classiccmp stuff but closely related:
Classic Video game systems and carts (2600, 5200, Colco, Intv, etc.)
Compaq DeskPro 4/33 w/DX4-100 CPU upgrd, 12Mb RAM, 1Gb HD (have 3)
Compaq ProSignia server 486-66
Wanted
------
1 - Disk Drives w/cables for CBM PET
2 - Modem and cassette cables, ROM upgrades, expansion items for Tandy
100/102
3 - CP/M cart for C64/128
4 - SpartaDos cart for Atari 8 bit
5 - Keyboard w/cable and DOS for HP 150A
6 - RGB DB-25 cable for Sony SMC-70
7 - Intel 8224 and 8228 peripheral chips
8 - Good battery packs for TI calcs: SR-50, SR-52, and TI-58C
9 - Systems: RCA Cosmac, AdventureVision game console, Exidy Sorcerer,
Magnavox Odyssey, Vector Graphics (anything but MZ), P.T. SOL-20... er
Apple 1, III, Lisa...
I'll consider just about any condition item from the last section above,
and would also consider most any working system or good drives, boards,
terminals, etc. from pre-1980, that I don't already have. Just let me
know what you've got...
BTW, I'm in California, about 20 minutes north of SF.
--
mor(a)crl.com
http://www.crl.com/~mor/tps/
Actually, I got my own copy of the "NAQ" when I subscribed; I don't
need another. I was just pointing out to Sam that the official
classiccmp web page has been out of reach for quite a long time
now, so there is no point in referring people to it.
So, once again, I'd like to urge everyone to participate in building
a classiccmp distributed web page. Take a look at this URL,
http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/dwp.html
and then go add those meta-tags to your pages. Okay, now I'll stop
pushing this once and for all.
Cheers,
Bill.
] From dastar(a)wco.com Sun Mar 15 10:33:26 1998
]
] On Sat, 14 Mar 1998, Bill Yakowenko wrote:
] > As near as I can tell, the classiccmp web site has been down for
] > months now. I've tried probably fifty times since I-don't-know-when,
] > but haven't got it to come up. Do you have the inside scoop on that?
] > Without that, referring people to the FAQ isn't going to help much.
]
] Oh, sorry. That does tend to be a big problem. And yes, that web site
] has been flaky as hell for months now. I believe there is a mirror site
] somewhere that carries the FAQ.
]
] Can someone help Bill out? Anyone have a copy of the FAQ lying around?
]
] Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
] Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
]
] Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
] See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
On Mar 15, 19:46, Thorhallur Ragnarsson wrote:
> Subject: Re: Getting bent (ON topic if not thread)
>
> [ plain text
> Encoded with "quoted-printable" ] :
Hooray!
At 07:26 15.03.1998 PST, Max Eskin wrote:
>
> >Actually, I find most precautions such as anti-static and so forth to
> >be baloney.......
I've spent a lot of my working life repairing boards that have been blown up,
so I can't agree.
> No, unfortunately this can be a real problem, some years ago when working
> as test engineer for DNG Electronics, we suddenly had skyrocketing failure
> rates in assembly of equipment containing CMOS logic. Everybody involved
> was grounded with a 1Mohm wrist strap so this was quite a mystery until we
> noticed that when carrying the boards from the test bench to the final
> assembly, the lead from the strap was too short and the carrier had to
> disconnect it for the 6 feet trip across the floor, this zapped approx. 30%
> of the boards. His shoes must have been something!!
>
> >...................... When I was upgrading RAM in the machines in
> >my school's MacLab, the person in charge of it constantly looked over
> >my shoulder and bleated, "Touch the case again, Max. I want to SEE you
> >touch the case. OK, now gently, gently, now. Oooh! Yeesh! DON'T touch
> >those chips!",etc.etc. I didn't damage anything, ......
>
> Well, we have no way of knowing that. Static damage may just weaken the
> chips so they fail later.
That's quite a common effect. One of the big electronics companies published
some figures on it a ten years or so ago. Often, it may alter a device's
response to high frequencies as well. But I don't agree with those who say you
must never touch a chip, or must hold it by the ends without touching the pins.
If I have to carry an EPROM or similar without antistatic foam, I make a point
of ensuring that all the pins are touching my finger, on the grounds that my
slightly-conductive skin is keeping all the pins at the same potential.
> Yes, I hope we are lucky. I do not normally wear an antistatic wrist strap,
> I just try to wear cotton clothes, "touch the case" often and avoid rubbing
> against all those synthetic surfaces (table, chair, carpet etc.).
> When dealing with old equipment I try to be even more careful as it may be
> more static sensitive and spares harder to find.
I once (mid-80s) had several calls from a school that had refitted a computer
room; machines kept crashing, usually at the start of a class. I only remember
one permanent fault, but when I eventually asked the right question, it turned
out they had a new carpet with a high nylon content. I suggested they spray
the carpet with very dilute carpet cleaner in one of those mister bottles that
plant lovers always seem to have, and to repeat that once a week or so. The
problems went, and never came back.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
On Mar 15, 8:33, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> Subject: Re: What's with the raw HTML?
> [ snip ] but to me
> the real standard is:
>
> Flat text should be sent as flat text.
I couldn't agree more :-)
> The number of MIME-encoded flat text documents I receive every day is
> just plain silly.
And with this. That's why I don't even bother to read a lot of that stuff,
unless the Subject: line and/or From: makes me think I need to.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
On Mar 15, 10:09, Dan Stephans II wrote:
> Subject: Re: What's with the raw HTML?
> Umm, HTML is pretty much a standard no matter what platform you are on as it
> is most certainly not platform dependent. The standard for 1.1 is specified
> in RFC 2068 and for 1.0 in RFC 1945.
Sure, but that's not really the issue. In any case, M$ blatantly ignore those
standards.
> If you mean that there are not standard
> tools to read html'ized mail under unix/linux, I say Netscape is available
> for almost any linux and most other unices running on sparc/intel/alpha
> hardware.
HTML is a markup language designed for web pages. Netscape is primarily
designed for web pages, not mail. It is a very inefficient tool for mail. And
what if you're not running X Windows? I completely agree with Allison and
others, that HTML has no place in textual mail. It is completely unneccessary,
and wastes both bandwidth and time. I suspect you agree, at least in part,
with that.
> I don't argue that HTML rich text is fine for mailing lists,
> however if you are going to argue that it is not you should formulate a
> proper argument.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dan
>
> Allison J Parent wrote:
>
> > <Text. If the e-mail that you wish to respond to's in plain text, that's
> > <what it'll send. The problem is that if M$ supports it, the WHOLE WORLD
> > <suddenly has to all have HTML-ized e-mail readers. It's nice if you hav
> > <it, but a pain in the A** if you don't.
> >
> > There is the little matter of some several million (or more) unix(linux,
> > and related cuzins) systems out there where HTML is far from a standard.
> > For me and many of the hybrid users HTML means slow, slower and special
> > utilities to handle it and for what? What a waste of bandwidth.
> >
> > Allison
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Aaah, I see! When it comes to system stability, you Linux geeks come
>from all over saying how you can DEVELOP patches, but when we have
some software that you don't, where is that trusty gcc? huh? huh?
But seriously, is it so hard to patch Linux mail for HTML?
>There is the little matter of some several million (or more)
unix(linux,
>and related cuzins) systems out there where HTML is far from a
standard.
>For me and many of the hybrid users HTML means slow, slower and special
>utilities to handle it and for what? What a waste of bandwidth.
>
>Allison
>
>
______________________________________________________
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Well, I was finally able to make two QIC tapes (boot and install) using
NetBSD for x86. The tape drive ran fine, with no errors.
So then I hooked the shoebox up to the 3/50 that I have, and using the
monitor, issued "b st(0,6,0)" to boot from the tape. The 3/50 seems to
access the drive (I can see the heads move), but either aborts with a
"Device Not Found" error, or the following:
scsi getbyte failed
invalid status message = FFFFFFFF
st: sense key = 6 error = 29
I'm not able to get any further than this. Any thoughts??
Rich Cini/WUGNET
<nospam_rcini(a)msn.com> (remove nospam_ to use)
ClubWin! Charter Member (6)
MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
============================================
