What kind of stores are you hitting that you are having such luck?
Today - I stopped into a local pawn shop - a rare place in the suburbs -
and picked up an Atari 520ST and an Atari SF354 disk drive sans cables
and power supplies. My first pawn shop find. I passed on a IIgs they
had, but I was tempted. What I'm really looking for is a IIe.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: rigdonj(a)intellistar.net [mailto:MIME @INTERNET
{rigdonj(a)intellistar.net}]
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 1998 7:18 AM
To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Question for the Faq - If there is one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Mike,
I'm in the central Florida area and I've had darned good luck here. In
the last couple of months I have acquired; Altair 8800a, IBM 5100, 2 AT&T
3B2s, AT&T 3B1, 2 Tandy 6000s, a bunch of HPs, and two Commodore Pets,
etc.
I pass up Compaq and KayPro luggables, Timexs, NCRs, and stuff like that
*EVERY* day. Even passed up a DEC last week. If you get down this way,
I'll
give you a tour of some good places to hit.
Joe
At 12:48 PM 3/17/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>If there's no FAQ there probably should be one. I'd start one myself
but
>I'm no where near qualified to do so.
>
>Anyhow, here's something that I'm sure has been asked and probably will
>be asked again - What are the top ten hotspots for finding old
>equipment?
>
>Thanks - Mike
>
>
This message is directed to those individuals who care that this mailing
list has slowly degraded into a usenet newsgroup. The rest of you can
continue to be unconcerned and skip this message.
Its obvious that this mailing list needs an overhaul. Any attempts to
steer it back to its proper course of discussion have been either
ridiculed or ignored.
Again, this goes back to my argument a few weeks back when the noise was
at its loudest, which is that it all boils down to common courtesy and
respect.
In my normal life, I make it a point to break the rules and live against
convention. I can do that without disturbing the rest of my fellow humans
because the impact of my actions doesn't reach very far. Plus I don't
flout convention just to flout convention, thereby inconveniencing others.
However, in this tight-knit community where the slightest ripple builds
into a wave and then a tsunami, it is not appropriate to continually
transcend the intended use of this forum for one's own personal amusement.
When you're in close quarters, you don't fart unless you're an asshole.
The quality of the PEOPLE on this mailing list has declined considerably.
It used to be that Bill screened participants before they were allowed to
join, thereby filtering out the potential riff raff. The community we
used to have, although semi-exclusive, did produce some excellent
discussion material. However, now that Bill has fallen off the face of
the earth and just about anyone with half a brain can join, a good
majority of the discussion at times is off-topic and boorish. The worst
case is the one-line reply to the hundred line quoted message. It used to
be fun to read about classic computers. Now its pretty lame reading about
[insert off-topic shit here].
I think the best approach to this would be to let this stupid mailing list
die out and start an alternate forum. So I'm going to do just that. I'm
beginning work on a web BBS which will have multiple topic areas. It will
be semi-moderated and any inkling of off-topic blather will be expunged
promptly. Better yet, I may even decide to turn it into a classic BBS
running on a classic system (I can resurrect the never finished BBS
software I was writing on my Apple //e). That way, those interested in
joining will have to take some effort to do so, which will eliminate the
casual turd.
I'll let interested parties know when this is completed and ready for
beta. Please e-mail me (need I add "privately"?) with any tips or
suggestions you may have. Your input would be greatly appreciated. Your
criticisms will be answered with fantasticly cruel insults and derision.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
I would think that constructive suggestions would accomplish much more than
flame bait like calling folk "turds".
Suggestions:
Why not steer those who can do nntp to alt.folklore.computers? a.f.c
carries discussions on all aspects of computer history, including many of
the topics discussed here.
Before flaming folk for ignoring the FAQ, make it readily available. Stick
the FAQ URL at the bottom of every re-mailed message to act as a constant
reminder.
Experienced users tend to ignore belligerent posts rather then respond to
them and waste time with pointless arguments. A gentle reminder to read the
FAQ will often suffice.
Finally: moderate, or get off the pot. Have you ever been a member of a
committee without a chairman? Can you say: slugfest?
--
David Wollmann
dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com
Don't forget the above phrase. It CAN'T stand. Make no mistake. Sam,
you've made some mistakes. LETS NOT LOSE ANY MEMBERS OVER THIS. IT'S
IMPORTANT, AT LEAST TO ME. I KNOW THAT I'VE BEEN PART OF THE PROBLEM, BUT I
WANT TO BE A GREATER PART OF THE SOLUTION.
Tim D. Hotze
Would it be a) desirable, b) possible to have the remailer append a very
short text to each outgoing message with "Read the faq: <FAQ URL>"?
This is what Red Hat do with their lists, and it's quite handy. Sure some
people ignore it, but it's always there to refer people to--it's in every
message in the list and most folk can just cut 'n paste the URL or
double-click it to refer the FAQ.
--
David Wollmann
dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Foust [SMTP:jfoust@threedee.com]
> Sent: March 18, 1998 10:23 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: Irreverence to irrelevance
>
> I've always thought a much more sensible approach is the private
> news server. It allows pruning of unruly threads, either by the
> reader (ignoring off-topic subjects) or by a B.D. who trims
> away junk messages. It allows auto-archiving. It doesn't clog
> mail routes and mail boxes. You can read it with any Usenet news
> reader,
> just point to someone else's server. It would be easy to split
> into .hardware, .software, .culture sub-groups.
>
A private news server is a Bad Thing for those of us sitting at
work with a firewall inbetween ourselves and the net. I do not think I
will have much success convincing the firewall admins to allow news
traffic to go through.
--------------------------------------------
Joachim Thiemann
DSP Coder, Castleton Network Systems
I doubt therefore I might be.
My brother recently purchased a Data General AViiON AV-400 machine at an
auction ($20) It is in a tower case and has 16 MB RAM, 320 MB SCSI hard
drive. He was told by someone at DG that it runs at 20 MHz using a
Motorola 88000 processor.
He was able to get the machine to talk to a PC connected to the com port
and it works and comes up with
DG/UX Bootstrap version 4.3
error, logical partition not found
(or similar wording)
Does this mean:
(a) the SCSI drive is bad
(b) the OS has been deleted
And, if (b) how would he get a version of DG/UX or is there another flavor
of Unix that would run on the machine? There is very little on the net
about these beasts.
Any help appreciated!
- Ron Kneusel
rkneusel(a)mcw.edu
How come MITS used 8800 for the Altair and not 8080?
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
"Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
> No, that's not the problem. I can hear the other end howling away
> on the modem's speaker, but the modem doesn't recognize it for some
> reason. I want this thing to work so I could replace my 1200.
This is a Practical Peripherals 2400SA, right? Little white plastic
modem with a sloped front with modem-blinkenlights?
I think this is the kind of modem that taught me that when they label
one jack "line" and the other jack "phone" they may mean it. When I
got it wrong the modem behaved as above: it would go off-hook and dial
but not connect.
Except that they didn't label the jacks on the modem, you had to look
in the manual if you wanted to know which was which. But there's only
two ways to do it, so put the cable that goes to the wall jack in the
*other* modem jack and see if that makes it work.
-Frank McConnell
Now, back to on-topicness...
for those of you that collect IBM family one machines, i've found an
interesting place with pics, info, and other related links. web over to
WWW.CAN.IBM.COM/HELPWARE/VINTAGE.HTML
david
Kudos to Doug Youza for the Classiccmp FAQ at
www.yowza.com/classiccmp/faq.txt I downloaded this and read it last
night. If you care about this List and have any consideration for
those of us who want to talk vintage computer only, PLEASE READ THE
FAQ, especially section 2.8 (check your personal drivel at the door).
I'm a newcomer to the Classiccmp List and have found that with all the
off topic (I hope I haven't been guilty of this, I've certainly tried
to be on topic) postings the List is somewhat like a cow pasture, you
need to watch where you step. I wade through countless inane, insipid
and irrelevant postings. Why?
Let's keep on topic and keep personalities off the list and private.
Abide by section 2.8 and all of us will benefit.
Marty Mintzell
If there's no FAQ there probably should be one. I'd start one myself but
I'm no where near qualified to do so.
Anyhow, here's something that I'm sure has been asked and probably will
be asked again - What are the top ten hotspots for finding old
equipment?
Thanks - Mike
>MS bashing in a MODERN context is off-topic, yes, but saying
how
>BASIC for the Altair was bloated certainly is the best of both
worlds
>IMHO. But to go even further back, was there any IBM-bashing
before
>the 80's?
a 4KB paper tape Basic for the Altair was bloated? Compared to
what, the 2KB Tiny Basic Dr. Dobbs was pushing? At least you
got paper tape for the Altair, the Dr. Dobbs version you had to
type in from very small print in the magazine. And most
important, Bill's 4K Basic worked, did anyone ever get the IMSAI
paper tape Basic to work? (We gave up and threw ours away after
several futile tries)
IBM bashing before PCs? As an old Univac/CDC type I can swear
(with fingers crossed behind back) we never said a single bad
word about OS/360 or the blazing speed of a 360/20, and we
always envied the S/3ers their MFCU and the cute little 96 col.
cards.
Jack Peacock
Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com> wrote:
] To be fair, analog computers can do things digital computers can't. For
] example, a digital computer can only approximate 1.0/3.0 whereas an
] analog box has no trouble with this. Certain ops would also be much
Actually, you've got that backwards. Contained in your message above
is a totally accurate digital representation of 1/3. Oh, there it is
again, at the end of that sentence. It is an analog measure of this
that would lack precision.
OBCC: Is there any such thing as a stored-program analog computer?
I guess Babbage's analytic engine would fit that category, but all
of the other analog "computers" that I've heard of (not many) just
performed some fixed calculation. In my book, a stored program with
sequence-control makes the difference between a computer and a
calculator, manufacturer's labelling notwithstanding.
Bill.
The other day someone re-posted section 2.8 of the FAQ and I thought
it might be a good idea to repost sections 1 and 2 in their entirety,
as they address what the list is about and what sorts of traffic are
appropriate.
I didn't write this. Bill Whitson did, and posted it to the list in
early July 1977 (thanks, Bill). All I did was snarf it from
http://www.heydon.org/kevan/classiccmp/1997-07/msg00028.html (thanks,
Kevan).
I have no comment on this. I am merely posting it for the benefit of
those who haven't seen it before, and those who have, but (like me)
didn't have a copy handy and need a refresher to figure out just what
is irritating some folks so.
-Frank McConnell
--- begin included text ---
1.1 What is ClassicCmp?
It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center
on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place
for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions
dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are
often better handled in private e-mail.
1.2 Why is ClassicCmp?
Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it
seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them.
1.3 What is a Classic Computer?
_Any computer_ that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic.
This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to
work OK, so I've kept it.
1.4 Who runs this thing?
That would be me, Bill Whitson - email bcw(a)u.washington.edu.
1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator?
Sorry. It does often take me several days (sometimes weeks!) to respond
to e-mail. I am often away for days at a time and when I'm not I'm still
probably busy doing real work. I receive more than double the amount of
mail that goes to the list in the form of spam, bounced messages, odd
user requests, general bitching, etc. and I still have to filter out the
messages I actually have to respond to, to remain employed ;). I will get
back to you eventually.
1.6 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done.
I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show
me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large
as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously
there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see
a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing
anyway.
1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list?
The daily load varies widely from about 10 messages to over 100. Average
seems to be about 44 messages a day. There are times where the message
load peaks for as much as a week.
[][][][][][][][][]
2.1 What can I talk about?
Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many
people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might
want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. It's also a
good idea to actually read the FAQs and check the archives a little before
posting.
2.2 Can I talk about PCs?
Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then, be
aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC
newsgroups.
2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames/WorkStations/Gigantic Talking Boxes
with Flashing Lights & Coundown Timers/Robots from Alien Civilizations?
There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for
micros/home computers only. You'll note I said "misconception".
2.4 Can I post advertisements?
Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course,
use your brain - don't spam. Also, please state up-front whether or not
you are willing to ship the items you sell outside your country as there
are members of this list in a number of different countries.
2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers?
Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example,
would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on
usenet who will vouch for this. When someone posts about one of their
machines without offering to sell it - it's really a pretty good bet that
they're not secretly trolling for offers. See section 5 for info on how to
find yourself a computer.
2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x.
Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't
have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic
electronics tools (VOM/DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz
with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking
questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check
the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking
out!" exactly means.
2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question?
It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive
section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below).
2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?!
(Or, in general, be unreasonable with reagard to advocacy posts?)
Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. For that matter, drop
any posts that serve only to perpetuate the holy wars.
2.9 Can I post trophy lists?
Ahem. Er... I'm not going to go to the extent of banning this practise
but it is considered bad manners. Don't whine to me because I used to be
guilty of this and curbed myself ;). Post lists of newly acquired goods
if you actually need info on them, not just to show off.
2.10 Can I use obscene language in my posts?
Yes. Although I'm sure many people would prefer you did not. A number of
people have complained about this. I'm not going to outlaw swearing - now
that I've informed you that it bothers people you can make your choice.
--- end included text ---
Hello folks. I just moved into the SF bay area and found myself
terribly uncomfortable without my trusty pdp11, which I had to leave in
Pennsylvania due to space constraints. I just now subscribed to this
list, so I haven't seen any of the messages lately. My question is:
Are there any pdp11s being offered for sale/free anywhere near oakland,
ca?
thanks for any replies.
jake
>The dos geneology is roughly...
>
>DEC PDP-8 OS/8 (pip, stat, dir)-->
RT-11/RSTS/RSX11-->
> CPM-80-->
> CPM86-->
> dos-1.0-->
>
>The VAX OS line up VMS is off the RSX11 part fo the PDP-11
tree.
>
>DOS was a translation of 8080 CPM-80 to 8086 by seattle
computer. Unix
>has been an influence but largely not that great.
>
>UNIX has it's own tree and there are to say the least many
flavors some
>of which even resemble each other.
>Allison
To add in a bit more....
CP/M comes directly from RT-11 and the RSTS tree. Even the PIP
command (peripheral interchance program) was very similar to the
RT-11 version of PIP. CP/M had a more sophisticated file system
than RT-11, but less sophisticated device drivers.
VMS was not the first virtual memory OS that DEC wrote.
TOPS-20, for the PDP-20 (that was a PDP-10 with virtual memory)
was the first virtual system. TOPS-20 was not the same as
TOPS-10, even the system calls were invoked a different way.
(My first real systems programming job was on a 20/40, a joy to
work on, tho slow by modern standards).
Jack Peacock
Any idea where I might find documentation for Intel PDS-100? Same
place I can find a winning powerball lottery ticket I suppose?
Marty
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: INTEL PDS-100
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 3/17/98 12:51 PM
<Marty wrote:
<>
<> I have an Intel PDS-100 Personal Development System but no manuals or
<> information on this unit. It is from 1979-1982 I believe, and has two
<> prom programming boards with it. The unit is the size of a slightly
<> large pc, has a carrying handle with built in monitor, keyboard and
<> two 5 1/4" half height floppy drives.
It was introduced later in the 1983-85 time frame. 1979 would have been
the more expensive and heavy MDS-2xx series.
I believe the native OS was ISIS though it's possible that IRMX was also
available and CPM as well from third parties.
Allison
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From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: INTEL PDS-100
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
I have two one for $30 at Goodwill and one for $15 from scrape dealer. Now
the same Goodwill has sold about 10 more complete with mouse and everything
for $20 each. Good Luck with yours. John
At 04:12 PM 3/17/98 -0800, you wrote:
>I found one for sale with OS and extras, can anyone give me some feedback
>on it? Maybe what a fair price would be?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Aaron
>
>
>
No, that's not the problem. I can hear the other end howling away
on the modem's speaker, but the modem doesn't recognize it for some
reason. I want this thing to work so I could replace my 1200.
>To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
>Subject: Re: PN2400SA
>
>
>
>>I typed AT&F, the modem said OK, but it still ignored the carrier.
>>I even tried ATZ. I looked at its current settings with AT&V, and
>>the ones that I knew were fine. The ones that were not in my AT
>>reference guide (to another modem) were, for example &Qx. But I have
>>a feeling it's something else. Ideas?
>>
>Does this one have separate Line and Phone jacks? Make sure you are
using
>Line and not Phone
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message with no relevant information, and especially having nothing to
do with this mailing list.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
I typed AT&F, the modem said OK, but it still ignored the carrier.
I even tried ATZ. I looked at its current settings with AT&V, and
the ones that I knew were fine. The ones that were not in my AT
reference guide (to another modem) were, for example &Qx. But I have
a feeling it's something else. Ideas?
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>I typed AT&F, the modem said OK, but it still ignored the carrier.
>I even tried ATZ. I looked at its current settings with AT&V, and
>the ones that I knew were fine. The ones that were not in my AT
>reference guide (to another modem) were, for example &Qx. But I have
>a feeling it's something else. Ideas?
>
Does this one have separate Line and Phone jacks? Make sure you are using
Line and not Phone
