>> I used a TTY ASR-33 as a printer for my PET years ago. My memory is
>> that if I left the receiver open circuit, i yammered away printing
>> nulls; if I shorted out the loop it didn't. I interfaced it using one
>> transistor - no power supply was necessary.
>>
>> +----------------------
>> |
>> OUT b |/c
>> -------/\/\/\/---------| NPN TTY
>> |\e
>> PET |
>> -------------------------+----------------------
>> GND
>
>
> For I've got a Kludge
> And a good Kludge too ;-)
>
> Seriously, that works. I've done it myself a few times. But it's not the
> official way to drive a teletype - the external device should source the
> loop current. And I prefer to teach people the right way and let them
> find out the kludges for themselves.
Oh, yes. Absolutely. But I was disagreeing with your assertion that
while 5V might do for the transmit loop, you'd "need" 12V for the
receive loop.
>> Note: I never interfaced the TTY transmitter - not even for reading
>> paper tape (don't know why not)
IIRC, one of the problems I had was the high resistance of the transmit
loop - many kilohms, I think. It probably was mostly contact resistance
and highly non-linear i.e. apparent resistance would be less at higher
currents), but I wouldn't like to use only 5V. I'd suggest a reasonable
sized decoupling capacitor to get rid of contact noise, too - say, up to
1 microfarad.
> Err, because the ASR33 reader is horrible and mangles tapes? You have a
> Trend, don't you?
This was at least 4 years before I ever _saw_ any other paper tape
stuff. Long before I got the Trend. Or even my little DSI box. (DSI =
Data Specialties Inc. They made a 30cps reader/punch unit that was sold
in the UK by a small company called Teleprinter Equipment Ltd. Never
met either of them anywhere else.)
Philip.
<> It interests me why some one wants a particular machine especially
<> since you do not seem to know much about it.
<
<Well, I can't speak for the person you were replying to, but in my
<case I'm often interested in machines I know little to nothing about
<because I'm interested in learning about them. Although you can
<learn a lot without one, it can help if you have one to explore.
That is a good reason. The fear I have and have encountered is people
lusting for an XZ21 and when they get it find they are totally in over
their head to do programming or hardware troubleshooting often required.
The NS* was a good machine but it was S100 and beyond some general things
was not a pop in a board and play thing like PCs. I get real scared
when some one asks me if a VGA monitor works with a Altair or did it
require a XT style keyboard!
Allison
I will say Amen to that, considering that I just mailed 9 boxes of
MS-DOS 3.3 which were still shrinkwrapped and beign thrown away by
my school. THat has to be $500 right there that could have been used
on pencils. I won't complain about the fate the DOS 3.1 boxes met...
>
>>
>> Personally, I believe the "computer literacy in schools is
everything"
>> movement is a result of inept teachers and a haywire NEA.
>
>Amen!
>
>> students should be introduced to computers (read: word
>> processors/calculators) until the first year of high school after
>> mastering basic reading, comprehension, writing and math skills.
>
>
>The problem with introducing elementary and middle school kids to
>computers so early is that they either a) know more than the lab admin,
or
>b) aren't allowed to use them in any constructive way. I'm only in the
>tenth grade, but I've already seen seven new labs installed in area
schools.
>The school districts almost ALWAYS spend WAY too much on new computers,
>mainly from the worst vendors, only to have to replace them when the
>warranty runs out (with very little usage, BTW). The computers simply
>aren't used until high school, when word processing/database,
programming,
>and other such courses are offered. Anything before is mainly a waste
of
>money.
>
>What about the 'net? I don't understand why people think that the
>internet is such a great "tool" that will help schools. Just do a
search
>for "barbie" on Yahoo. Or, for that matter, try "video" or something
>general. Especially considering that most schools don't use any
>Internet blocking software..
>
>It takes most people a long time to get used to using search engines in
such a
>way to get what they want. Most people in my school don't have any
idea how to
>use the 'net, and could care less. That is the general attitude at
most
>schools that I have been to.
>
>In other words, most of the money spent on computer equipment is a
waste.
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
If you haven't seen the news yet, I found out thanks to http://slashdot.org
, Microsoft is pulling one of their dirtiest stunts ever in their attempt
to destroy Netscape. If anyone doesn't think Microsoft is evil this should
convince them, unless they are niave enough to think Microsoft isn't behind
this!
In what would appear to be a result of their assimilation of Wang last
month, Wang has announced a Lawsuit against Netscape for Patent
infringement. Basically Wang is claiming to have "Save As..."
patented?!?!?! For an explanation see
http://www.mozilla.org/legal/wangsuit.html I also like the Graphic and
comment at http://www.mozilla.org
The problem is, Wang is sueing them for something that almost EVERY piece
of software available does! Netscape needs examples of software that do
the things in the patent prior to March 30th, 1983. See the below
information.
Wang might be able to use this to get a Court injunction to prevent
Netscape from distributing Navigator?!?! A lot of the Free Software
fanatics are seeing this as a direct attack against free software by
Microsoft, since Netscape just released the Navigator source code.
Zane
Here is the portion of the statement that is the most important:
-----------
Wang is asserting that a patent that it holds for a video text system is
infringed by the Netscape browser. Netscape is vigorously defending the
lawsuit. Wang contends the patent discloses the invention of:
Saving web pages retrieved from a server using "Save As" (See Claim
23, 24),
Bookmarks (Claims 20-22),
Saving files with file extensions and then retrieving the pages and
decoding the files based on the file extension (Claim 38).
The patent was filed in 1984. We believe the patent is noninfringed,
unenforceable, and invalid based on, among other things, prior art such as
the
Alto & Star computers from Xerox Parc, Terminal Emulators, connectivity
software prevelant in the the early 80s such as CrossTalk, Unix
symbolic links (ln -s), and various other "video text" systems like
Telidon, Prestel, Mupid used in the late 70s, early 80s.
It's easy to say "of course that's invalid", but what is required are
specific references to prior art. If you know of additional prior art
publications,
software programs, books, or systems in existence --prior to March 30,
1983-- which disclose and/or describe the claimed elements send us a
message. Send responses or questions to mozilla.org. Please include the
following information:
Name of the Publication or System
Date of the Publication or Date System Was Publicly Known
Features it Discloses
Where Can the Publication or System Be Found (ie. university,
reference library, company, contact person)
----------
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
>Qoo, Tim!
>Wadda hell...
If you say so. ;-) Anyway good to see you subscribed.
>>OS/2 !! SYS01475
>>OS/2 !! SYS02027
>>
>>So anyway, it freezes like that. This, BTW, is on a 2.1GB HDD, with no
>>other OS'es currently installed.
>It may be 2.1G that causes the problem - if it is used as single partition.
>I heard that Warp3 isn't too well in handling big partitions. Try breaking
>it into smaller pieces (<1G)
Oh, yeah, that's why I gave specifically 2.1GB. So I'm going to have the
boot manager, 120MB for Warp, 700 for Linux and the rest for Windows
(remember, I need to run some Win32 apps, not by choice.)
>hope that helps,
>-andy
Tim D. Hotze
Kai-
I am interested in purchasing the North Star Horizon. I am not local
and don't have a trade so would be a cash deal.
Do you have any info about the machine such as amount of memory, type of
floppy(ies), last known operating system, hard drive (if any), keyboard,
monitor, and condition (working/nonworking).
Thanks
Randy Staponski
With the recent discussion on the MTPRO price guide, the ZX80 bashing,
and a bit further back the Enrico Tedeschi flame festival, I found it
quite amusing to run across the following entry at eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13957826
For those without a web browser, I'll just say that this is a book on
Sinclair computer history, being auctioned by the author of the MTPRO
price guide (who goes by the handle "ClassicComputing" at eBay). Most
remarkable of all, the book was authored by a gentleman named Enrico
Tedeschi.
--
mor(a)crl.com
http://www.crl.com/~mor/
I'd love to check out the MIT Flea Market. When and where is it?
"J. Maynard Gelinas" <maynard(a)jmg.com> on 05/14/98 01:15:48 PM
Please respond to classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
cc: (bcc: Bill Sheehan/Corporate/SWEC)
Subject: Re: Can we talk about computers at least?
Well Agreed!
Sorry I haven't been active in the list much... between work and
a family illness I've been _busy_! BTW: Anyone planning on attending
the MIT Flea market this Sunday? I doubt prices are going to be
reasonable what with that $100 PDP-11/23 last month.
--jmg
> From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)wco.com>
> Subject: Can we talk about computers at least?
>
> People.
>
> Could we move the discussion about the perceived woeful inadequacies of
> the current state of public education to a more appropriate forum? Like
> say a usenet group? Or a new mailing list? Basically anywhere but here,
> where it really does not belong?
People.
Could we move the discussion about the perceived woeful inadequacies of
the current state of public education to a more appropriate forum? Like
say a usenet group? Or a new mailing list? Basically anywhere but here,
where it really does not belong?
Thanks in advance.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 05/11/98]
This is for those of you in the Chicago area, and anyone else that
might be able to help me. I am just writing to ask if some of you
might be able to direct to some good classic computer sources in the
Chicago, Illinois area. I am leaving for Chicago for the weekend, and
will have some free time to browse thrift shops, etc. Any place that
might have a good stock of old 8-bitters?
Thanks,
CORD COSLOR
--
____________________________________________________________
| Cord G. Coslor : archive(a)navix.net |\
| Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue(a)navix.net | |
| on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | |
| http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | |
|------------------------------------------------------------| |
| PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | |
|------------------------------------------------------------| |
| If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | |
| chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | |
|____________________________________________________________| |
\_____________________________________________________________\|
In a message dated 98-05-14 05:40:03 EDT, you write:
<< Sorry, as it seems that I've become the maker of off-topic content, but now
after I've installed OS/2 (first 6 disks) Warp 3, using FAT (High
Performance File System didn't work), I get:
OS/2 !! SYS01475
OS/2 !! SYS02027 >>
if i remember correctly, that's the os2 version of: non system disk or disk
error. you might have to remove the floppy from a: drive or do a sysinstx
command to sys the hard drive.
david
Qoo, Tim!
At 12:38 14.05.98 +0300, you wrote:
>after I've installed OS/2 (first 6 disks) Warp 3, using FAT (High
>Performance File System didn't work), I get:
Wadda hell...
>OS/2 !! SYS01475
>OS/2 !! SYS02027
>
>So anyway, it freezes like that. This, BTW, is on a 2.1GB HDD, with no
>other OS'es currently installed.
It may be 2.1G that causes the problem - if it is used as single partition.
I heard that Warp3 isn't too well in handling big partitions. Try breaking
it into smaller pieces (<1G)
hope that helps,
-andy
Despite my former comments I'd say computers do have a place in education
as do television.
I went through most of school as an avid non-writer, managed good grades
despite it even in english so long as writing was not required. It was
word processing or actually a simple editor and printer that open the door
to writing, somehow made it less painful. It didn't help my bizzare
grammer or spelling but at least I wrote. The catalyst was writing code
and having to document it. Did computers help, yes. It wasn't pacman
or clicking icons just using the tool for what it can do best. What was
best was simply allowing me to bang down words and then peice them
together in some sensible way.
As to what computer to use, old! why old, no matter what they have
new now it will be old it a few years when they have to apply it. It's
better they understand so that the knowledge can be applied rather than
keystrokes. Students would do better to learn VI and ED than the latest
version of QARK or Word.
Allison
>Seem to remember I had the same problem when I tried to find out info
>about my /// a few years back... back then WAP had no web site, email or
>anything that I could find, which made life difficult for those of us
>stuck in the UK... hopefully things have progressed a little by now!
>
>(If you find a web address could you post it here please?)
http://www.wap.org/
-- Kirk
>I did pick up another Apple peripheral at the same time, which may offer a
>clue. It's a Modem 1200, Model A9M0301. The "clue", assuming it came
>from the same source, is the 8-pin mini-DIN connector. I don't know what
>uses that kind of connection for the serial port.
>
The //gs and Macs do, maybe the later //c or //c+
>Did the Apple 3.5" Drive have a mechanical eject? Fully manual, I mean,
>not just a push-button that tells the motorized ejection mechanism to wake
>up. Very un-Mac-like.
The manual eject was only on the drives designed for the // series.
-- Kirk
>> [wap]...
>>Thanks! We'll jump right over the the web pa....oh, you didn't post one.
>>Ok then we'll just call the phone numbe...oops, you didn't give us that
>>either. Ok, well I guess we'll just have to do it the hard way and write
>>a letter to...hmmm, no physical address.
:*)
Seem to remember I had the same problem when I tried to find out info
about my /// a few years back... back then WAP had no web site, email or
anything that I could find, which made life difficult for those of us
stuck in the UK... hopefully things have progressed a little by now!
(If you find a web address could you post it here please?)
cheers,
Jules
>
Greetings,
Last week, along with a boxload of other stuff, I picked up an external
3.5" floppy drive that apears to be intended for Apple machines.
It's a DS800 from DataSpace Corporation.
It physically plugs into my Apple //c, but I can't get the machine to
recognize it. The drive makes a noise when I power up the computer, but
that's all. Attempts to access S6, D2 or any other slot and drive
combination doesn't get anywhere.
It DOES respond to my Mac 512K, though. I plugged it into that machine
and shoved a Mac-formatted disk in it, and an icon and open window popped
up.
I don't think the drive can be intended for the Mac, though, because it's
got a MECHANICAL eject mechanism. In fact I was able to eject that Mac
disk (write protected, thankfully ;) ) and the Mac didn't notice.
Is there something I need to do to get my //c to recognize the drive? Or
is it intended for use on a //gs? Or did this company make a line of
dangerous Mac peripherals in an attempt to give the platform a bad name
for an overabundance of disk corruptions? ;)
Doug Spence
ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
Sorry, as it seems that I've become the maker of off-topic content, but now
after I've installed OS/2 (first 6 disks) Warp 3, using FAT (High
Performance File System didn't work), I get:
OS/2 !! SYS01475
OS/2 !! SYS02027
So anyway, it freezes like that. This, BTW, is on a 2.1GB HDD, with no
other OS'es currently installed.
Ciao,
Tim D. Hotze
I just spent Saturday morning in an Ali Babas cave of old computers
ranging form a huge 6ft tall by 10 ft wide analogue computer through a
few DEC machines (see below, and old ICT 1301, a Telefunken TR4 a
burroughs 1800, a few French minicomputers and quite a number of
unidentified systems. Included were lots of tape and disk drives, boxes
of documentationa nd software. Just a dream come true!
The collection belongs to ACONIT : "l'Association pour le Conservation
de Informatique et Telematique" I guess that's pretty clear even to non
french speakers. It has been accumulated over since 1985 and is
currently stored in a warehouse in a town called Voiron near Grenoble.
ACONIT has acquired larger and more convenient premisies in Grenoble
itself and will be moving the collection there later this year and we
plan on setting up workshops etc to restore as many of these systems as
possible.
Among the DEC machines I saw was a complete PDP-9. How rare are these?
Anyways, if anyone is in the Grenoble region later on in the year drop
me a line and I can provide a personally conducted guided tour of what
we have.
I'll keep you all informed of what we are doing as thngs develop.
Regards,
Hans B Pufal
At 09:44 AM 5/13/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
> Personally, I believe the "computer literacy in schools is everything"
> movement is a result of inept teachers and a haywire NEA. Here in the
> Washington, D.C. area I have read reports of teachers pushing
> 'invented' spelling as a method to avoid hurting the challenged
> student's self esteem. Educators seem to think the student will
Ummm... I don't doubt someone came up with this, but I doubt that it is
widespread; If one teacher does it, the media pick it up and report it as
if everyone was doing it, and of course the public loves to think that all
teachers are idiots just goofing off until they can retire.
I think it's jealousy over this (imaginary) summer vacation.
Most teachers are extremely hard working, committed educators who put a lot
of their own time and money into their classes. My girlfriend (admittedly,
one of the most insane) arrives at school before 7am (everyday) and rarely
leaves before 5pm. She spends her evenings and weekends doing schoolwork.
She spends her summers planning the next year and building various
curriculum. And she works with the other teachers all the time, so she's
not alone.
The problem is partially a lack of funding for schools and very a lack of
adequate parenting. Rachel sent home some work for the kids to do with
their parents one time; she got one back where the father had written (on
both sides, in big, red letters) that his kid can't do such advanced work
(they'd been doing it in class all week) and that "I AM NOT A TEACHER".
With a father like that, it's a wonder that the kid knows how to go to the
bathroom.
There are other kids: one whose parents come to school at lunch time to
take him to the bathroom and feed him his lunch (first grade, no kidding),
and a kid who is almost completely blind, yet even after the social worker
took him to the eye doctor (with her own money) still doesn't have glasses.
Kids whose parents beat them, who are being raised by grandparents because
their parents don't want them, kids who see people shot in real life, as
well as on TV. And there are kids who are taught to hate because of skin
color or religion, or whatever. Kids that are taught that the proper
response to a disagreement is hit. Kids that are ignored at home, left on
their own with a babysitter or nanny, or worse, to wander the neighborhood.
Kids that are allowed, even encouraged, if it will shut them up, to watch
stuff on telly that even *I* won't watch.
Sure, there are bad teachers out there, just as there are bad mechanics,
programmers, doctors, etc. But most of them work harder than probably
anybody on this list, and probably for a lot less money.
But parents don't even take responsibility for checking out the teachers.
There are also different styles of teaching; you wouldn't drop your volvo
off at a Land Rover mechanic, would you? But most parents don't bother to
see (or ask) if a teacher's style is the best for their kids.
Most parents pay more attention to whether or not their kids have brushed
their teeth than whether or not they've done their homework.
Don't put the blame on the teachers without putting it on the parents as well.
> in software will correct them. What a cop out. I don't believe
> students should be introduced to computers (read: word
> processors/calculators) until the first year of high school after
> mastering basic reading, comprehension, writing and math skills.
Computers are a very valuable tool for teaching those very skills. To deny
kids access to them is to slow them down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
>At 07:06 PM 5/13/98 +0300, you wrote:
>>to learn anything in perticular, except for stuff pertaining to... anyway,
I
>>think that here's a good time to give students a choice to know what
they're
>>going to do. I, for instance, want to specilize in Computers. Spending
>>time learning "Pre-Algebra" (Just spent 2 class periods making a
protractor
>>accurate to 90' from a piece of paper.) isn't helpful, at least not that
>
>Okay, so maybe you're a wiz in math/science, but you've got two
>misspellings in there (pArticular and speciAlize) so perhaps you should be
>concentrating on grammar/literature/etc? 8^)
I'm not a wiz in math/science at all. That's the point. I'm not learning
anything, and neither are the 14 or so people that I really know in the
class. In a class where 2/3 isn't learning jack SHOULD tell the teacher
something.
>>>High school, take the first two to the next levels and add skills needed
>>>to find paying work.
>>
>>I say that some students should be given the oppertunity to do this in Jr.
>>High. Not everyone, but some people. After all, by this time, you know
if
>>you're not going to be a chemist, programmer, or anything.
>
>Well, in Jr. High I was all set to be a private dick... er, detective.
>Early high school, I was ready to head for Harvard Law School. Late high
>school, the plan was U-Ill/Urbana-Champaign for under Grad Elect/Elect
>Engineering, then MIT for grad school. During college (SF City College) I
>was going to join the FBI. After dropping out of college, I wanted to be a
>synthesist, or maybe an inventor. Now, I want to be a politician.
>
>So when is it you know what you want to be when you grow up?
Computers. Entrepreneur. I'll start my own company developing software.
I'd start out with simple stuff, such as an e-mail client, and grow.
Another good thing to do (at least now) is to start a web page/Virtual
Community. That's changed a single time since Kindergarten, where I wanted
to be an aeronautical engineer, seeing as how I had zip experience with
computers. My idea's been the same for 5 years now.
Tim D. Hotze
At 11:59 PM 5/12/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Apple and 8bitters of it's ilks that is found in K-12 has it's places
>because these are what excels at teaching kids materials but in high
>school level, we need to convert guys over to real things like
>windows and 486 boxens, unix and like using word processing and
>speadsheets, such yak yak..of most types not including 100% dumb M$
NONONONONONONONO!!!
Word Processing and Spreadsheets, even 'net access can be taught just fine
on 8-bit machines, or DOS-based PC's. The younger kids are the ones who
can profit most from the non-textual interfaces that the newer machines can
offer.
To over-simplify: Older kids can read; they can learn to type commands.
Younger kids can't read; they need pictures (icons).
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
Personally, I believe the "computer literacy in schools is everything"
movement is a result of inept teachers and a haywire NEA. Here in the
Washington, D.C. area I have read reports of teachers pushing
'invented' spelling as a method to avoid hurting the challenged
student's self esteem. Educators seem to think the student will
eventually learn to spell correctly later in life or that spell-checks
in software will correct them. What a cop out. I don't believe
students should be introduced to computers (read: word
processors/calculators) until the first year of high school after
mastering basic reading, comprehension, writing and math skills.
Marty
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 5/12/98 9:47 PM
When was this thing with "computer literacy in schools is everything"
started? I like computers in schools, but I am tired of looking at
proposed plans to replace 5 MORE classrooms with computer labs. Is
this a classic thing? Would you in general say that computers have
affected education (keeping the discussion OnT, of course).
>
>> snoball wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi, I am a teacher here at the local elementary school in Humble,
TX. To be
>> > honest, the computer department here at the school is rather
pathetic, two
>> > Apple //e's and an XT that was donated that I can't get to work.
To be
>> > frank, these kids are going into a world where they are illiterate
in the
>> > basic workings of a computer. I hate to sound desperate, but I
have just
>> > exausted all leads I know to take on the matter. I saw your ad and
thought
>>
>> Don't panic. Here in New Jersey, the kids are all experts at
>> Nintendo (and some of the brighter lights at hacking security),
>> but damned few can actually read the manuals. Remember, the
>> most important component of "computer literacy" is "literacy".
>> If the kids can read, they can learn computers. If they can't,
>> there's not much else worth teaching them except to pee on the
>> side of the dumpster the cops aren't watching. (I may be a bit
>> prejudiced on the side of reading over computers -- I only have
>> fifty-odd computers, I've got [half bought new] several thousand
>> books, mostly the science fiction I've loved since before the
>> "New Math" was introduced to my grade school [after I'd had the
>> benefit of learning the stuff that worked].)
>> --
>> Ward Griffiths
>> They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
>> Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
>> Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________
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From: "Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: RETROCOMPUTING LIQUIDATION
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> Are there any students besides Derek on the list?
>
> I am a fourth year electrical engineering major here at
> Oklahoma State.
>
> --Scott
I'm a terminal student of the college of Hard Knocks....
Graduating when they pry my cold dead fingers from the keyboard.
--
Bill
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<Apple and 8bitters of it's ilks that is found in K-12 has it's places
<because these are what excels at teaching kids materials but in high
<school level, we need to convert guys over to real things like
<windows and 486 boxens, unix and like using word processing and
<speadsheets, such yak yak..of most types not including 100% dumb M$
<stuff.
Let me compress that:
Elementary school, how to learn. (language, reading, arithmetic)
Intermeadiate school, how to find answers to questions and communicate
them.
High school, take the first two to the next levels and add skills needed
to find paying work.
Computers are a part of life and M$ stuff is unfortunatly reality we live
with every day. The unfortunate part is I meet kids at the grocer that
play doom, surf the net and can't count change.
Allison
