Copyrights are valid (those affecting 1960) for 75 years, at least. That's
for whoever made them, assumed them, or what have you. Someone owns the
rights, whether the company exists or not.
-Mike
----------
> From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: EC-1 (was Re: Re[2]: Computer Values)
> Date: Friday, May 29, 1998 9:34 PM
>
> At 09:23 PM 5/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >On Fri, 29 May 1998, Shawn Rutledge wrote:
> >
> >> FWIW, the company that currently sells Heathkit manual reprints
doesn't
> >> look too kindly on people publishing web manuals from what I've heard.
> >> I'd sure like to publish my stash too if I could do so without getting
> sued.
> >
> >Hmm, I know that any patents associated with the EC-1 have expired by
> >now, but I don't recall how long a copyright lasts (more than 38 years,
I
> >suspect).
>
> Yes, but are they still valid if the owner is out of business? I know
> the HK manuals are WIDELY copied and the copies sold. So are Tektronix,
HP
> and a lot of others, and they're still in business!
>
> Joe
>
> >
> >-- Doug
> >
> >
>
I know this MAY not be 10years yet, but its getting there.
Does anyone know a good place to get ISA and (especially) EISA token ring
cards? (IBM or 100% IBM-compatible prefered.) I figure there must be
someone who's got a bunch they'd love to get rid of. :) I don't want (or
like) any of this new PCI-based junk.
af
----------
Adam Fritzler
afritz(a)iname.com
http://www.afritz.base.org
----------
>>2)It mentioned a "new input device" that was before the Xerox machine,
>>to be used alongside the mouse, was flexible but required training.
>>What was it?
>
>Doug Engelbart designed a five-key keyboard that would do most of seven-bit
>ASCII by accepting chording combinations. His idea was that you'd always
>run the keyboard with one hand and the mouse with the other.
Sounds cool, but hard to use, especially in a time when to use a computer,
you needed to type at least 30-50WPM (WAM), and spent enough time on a
computer to compute in your sleep!!! That kind of typing can't be easy to
forget.
I recently saw a one-handed keyboard, which looked kinda like a MS
Natural Keyboard, with the right hand sawed off, and the numeric keypad next
to the left. It looked like there were a few extra keys, but you had a key
that you held down, kinda like shift, and it would make the oposite
character (like A for H, S for J, etc.)
Ciao,
Tim D. Hotze
email: desieh(a)southcom.com.au
desieh(a)bigfoot.com
museum_curator(a)hotmail.com
Apple Lisa Web Page:
http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm
thanks I'll have time in the next day or so to pull the thing apart and
relay back my findings............
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, May 30, 1998 9:03
Subject: Re: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old
>[IBM PC floppy drives]
>
>> I get nothing out of them, no motor spin up, no led, no
>> nothing...................
>
>I've got the Type 1 drive schematics here (from the O&A TechRef volume 1).
>
>Let's go through the obvious things first.
>
>You have a DIP shunt (a little plastic block with shorting bars) in
>socket 1E of both drives, right? And a termination resistor pack in
>socket 2F of the drive physically furthest from the controller.
>
>Check that the cables on J4 at the back of the logic board are connected
>properly. There are some blank pins (4?) nearest to the edge connector,
>and then P8-P12 in order along the pins.
>
>Also, check the supply voltages - +5V and +12V at the drive when the
>machine is turned on. You do have the power cables plugged in, I trust
>:-) (don't laugh - I've forgotten them).
>
>OK, let's sort out the lack of LED first. Unplug the cable from the
>controller (leave it hooked up to the drives) and turn on the machine.
>
>Ground pin 3 of IC 3E (a 7407) in the drive. Does the LED come on now? If
>so, then suspect the controller, DIP shunt or cable. If not, then ground
>pin 4 of IC3E. If the LED now comes on, then IC3E is defective (or not
>geting power).
>
>Problem is, if IC3E is defective, then how many other parts have been
>damaged. 7407's are pretty reliable, so if it's damaged, it sounds like
>power problems. You didn't hook up the power cable backwards, did you?
>
>You can trace the motor on signal similarly. Try grounding pin 16 on the
>edge connector (the even numbered pins are on the top of the board,
>starting from the end nearest to the notch in the connector tongue), or
>equivalently pin 1 of IC3E. If the motor doesn't start,then try grounding
>TP13. If that starts the motor, IC3E is defective. If the motor still
>doesn't start then I'll have to talk you through the motor control board
>at the back.
>
>>
>>
>>
>
>-tony
>
Hi.
I recently picked up some more Convergent machines at a thrift shop. I was
pretty amazed; my 186 model was the only one I'd ever seen. Now I've got
286 and 386 models. Wow!
Anyway, I also picked up a few disk modules. Two 85 MB modules, I think.
(compare to my existing pair of 10 MB modules...) One is an 'expansion'
and needs to be connected to another disk module to work.
My problem is this: the one disk that has CTOS installed was set up as a
'Cluster Controller' and actually has accounts and passwords set up. I can
just press 'Go' at the login on my CM001 and use the system. This doesn't
work on the new system.
Is there a way I can recover the files on this disk (meaning the OS and
application software)? I have OS disks for the standalone version, but I'd
like to preserve the cluster controller so starting over is a
less-than-ideal option. I do have other working systems and parts
available to press into service for the cause.
Thoughts, hints, suggestions?
ok
r.
I have a Heathkit EC-1 analog computer in operational condition with
the patch cables, assortment of caps and resistors plus the operating
manual. I have entertained selling this (robbing Peter to pay Paul) to
help fund a 1939 pre-war television acquisition. A dilemma. Should I
part with the EC-1 I doubt I will ever find another. As toward the
value of the EC-1 I don't have a clue but would like to know what
anyone else thinks a fair price would be.
-Marty
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Computer Values
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 5/15/98 5:38 PM
On Thu, 14 May 1998, Marvin wrote:
> a TRS-80 Model 4P and a Coco 2. IMNSHO, the values of all computers will
> vary greatly depending on the knowledge and experience of the person
> doing the valuation. Hmmm, sounds just like *every* other form of
> collecting.
I used to collect coins when I was a kid, and the Blue Book (wholesale
values) and Red Book (retail values) were my bibles. Coins had a pretty
good grading system, and you could find fairly reliable production data.
I don't know of anybody that has tried to do anything close to this for
computers.
> I, for one, do like to see what E-Bay is doing. I kept track for a
> while of the people who were bidding on the stuff, and there were a
> number of people there who were collectors. Last year, I was bidding on
> a Sol-20, and the guy who outbid me won the bid at $800 or so. High? I
> talked with the guy later on, and the machine was in mint condition, had
> all the original documentation, and also included some of the
> peripherals. The Altairs that have been sold there are *all* selling
> below the prices I have seen for similar systems.
eBay and other online auctions are probably the best gauges of prices
there are, because they represent fairly efficient markets. In fact, some
online auctions that move their own inventory do regression analysis that
tells them more or less what price they can expect to get for any given
item. If somebody were to do the same analysis on person-to-person
auction data, that would be a very good starting place for a price
guide (especially from an auction like Haggle Online that also stores
condition, make, and model information :-).
If you only look at one or two anecdotal transactions, that doesn't tell
you much.
> FWIW, I tend to value my collection in the millions of dollars. And
> that is probably conservative ... if one were to go back in time and
> look at what the stuff cost new :).
The real question is what value does your insurance company place on your
collect. My guess is that they would value an Apple 1 based on a twenty
year depreciation starting with a $666 basis!
BTW, if, hypothetically, I were to find somebody willing to sell me a
Heathkit EC-1 analog computer in good condition, what value would you
experts assign to it, and what would you base your valuation on?
-- Doug
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From: Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer Values
In-Reply-To: <355BB476.56756898(a)rain.org>
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I have started to dismantle my System/34 so that I can save at least
the parts until someone can get them. One question is, does
everything in each S/34 plug together the same way? If so, I don't
have to label the cables, which is going to be a looong task.
Also, how should I park/lock the 62 megabyte hard drive?
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
2 datapath boards I was missing for the 785, almost the rest of the 780
(Missing only one board! The microsequencer... [M8235]...)
Interesting toys include:
A DZV11. Does anyone have the pinout for the distribution panel for this?
And a SUMMUS 422-U controller.
It has a SCSI-style plug at the top, it's a quad-height ?bus controller,
and I'm told it wants a SCSI tape drive attached to it.
The main chip says "442/UDT 4641" on top. A ROM is on here, it says
"Viking U/B A4.4"
Any info on this?
-------
I remember back in the soviet union there were a couple of good
magazines for young people that had projects in them.I was too young
to build any of them, and you'd have a hard time getting a blank
PCB there anyway, but they had a primitive rover-like robot (with
programmable modules based on the arrangement of electrical traces
on a cartridge), an RC boat, etc. I'd love to get my hands on one
of those. When I go back there (hopefully in a couple of years), I
will be sure to photocopy some of the stuff. Nothing like "build 99
projects" of today.
>> >
>>
>> It's no loss IMO. Byte hasn't been worth the paper it was printed
on
>
>Agreed. I stopped reading Byte shortly after the last 'Ciarcia's
Circuit
>Cellar'. It's not that that was the only interesting article in it -
many
>of the programming articles were great as well. But all the good stuff
>went at about the same time, and Byte became yet another ready-built
>PC-clone mag.
>
>> for a looonnggg time. The same thing happened to Popular
Electronics,
>> another of good OLD magazines.
>
>Are there _any_ good electronics/computer mags left now (especially in
>the UK)? Elektor used to be good, but recently it's all been
>pre-programmed PLDs with no idea as to what's in them, controlled by
>binary-only software for Microsoft OS's. No interest there for me...
>
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>
>-tony
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I emailed IBM. they said they transferred the stuff to someplace
called Greenleaf computers (I think, not sure). I didn't bother to
pursue it. They will be happy to give you the phone #.
>> Hi,
>>
>> Are technical references for IBM XT's / 286 machines avaialbe from
IBM
>> still? If so then I assume that they charge quite a bit of money for
>> them!
>
>AFAIK, all are out of print, but IBM probably have some remaining stock
>of most of them. I bought several manuals about a year ago.
>
>The XT Model 286 manual is unavailable.
>
>The others that you might need are :
>
>PC
>XT and Portable PC
>AT
>AT suplement for the type 2 board
>(those contain schematics of the motherboard and keyboard, BIOS
sources, etc)
>
>Options and Adapters. 2 volumes covering just about every card for the
PC
>and XT, monitors, drives, etc.
>O&A AT update (16 bit cards, serial/parallel adapter, etc)
>Scientific O&A (GPIB, DAC, PGC, etc)
>
>PC-jr (PC-jr motherboard _and all option cards_ for it in one manual)
>
>I posted the forms numbers (which you need to get them from IBM) on
this
>list a few months back - it's probably in the archives somewhere...
>
>They're not cheap, but not too expensive IMHO. Figure on \pounds 50.00
>per volume. I was pleasantly supprised by the ammount of information
that
>I got.
>
>> Jules
>
>-tony
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I don't know if everyone has heard, but the July issue of Byte will be the
last issue. It's a sad day for the computer industry. While Byte has
become primarily a Windows magazine in the past few years, they were still
the closest thing to a general purpose magazine left, and the only
non-specialized computer magazine that I still bought.
The following C/Net article gives the details
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,22532,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
<Is there a socketed PLCC chip in the middle of the board? (the so-called
<GIME chip). If so, it's a 3.
Yes there is.
<The disk controller is basically a WD1773 + support circuitry. And a ROM
<containing the disk extensions to basic. Not trivial to build, but not
<impossible. You might find a second hand one somewhere.
The FDC is easy as I have 1793 and 8229(glue chip). The rom is a show
stopper. I'll have to keep an eye open.
Allison
On May 29, 6:53, Joe wrote:
> Cord wrote:
> >I just picked up an older style laptop that I need some hlp on. It is
> >a Toshiba T2200SX laptop.
> >1) I need a battery for this unit. I have the power supply, but the
> >battery with it won't charge.
> Your chances of finding another battery are slim. Even if you find one
> it will be old and probably won't last long. My suggestion is to take it
> to one of the battery places that rebuild batteries and have them replace
> the cells in your old battery.
If you can take the battery pack apart (separate it into single cells) in
such a way that it could be re-assembled, all is not lost.
The usual problem with NiCds is that internal crystal growth makes short
circuits; the battery will show virtually 0V. If you force a sufficiently
high current through the cell, it will often remove the short. However,
the current needs to be very high, and has to be of short duration to avoid
other damage.
The way I do it, is to charge a large electrolytic capacitor up to 20V -
30V, connect one side to one end of a cell with a short thick wire, and
touch ("flash") the other side to the other end with another short thick
wire. The spark is usually fairly dramatic, so it's best to touch the wire
to the terminals and not the case (lest the arc burn through it), and use
eye protection. Repeat as required until the cell shows some reasonable
voltage.
Then put the cell through a full-charge/deep-discharge/full-charge cycle.
I've resurrected quite a few NiCds with my 24V bench PSU and a 50,000mfd
30V electrolytic.
BTW, inside a lot of laptop batteries, you'll find a small metal box in
series with the cells. Don't throw it away; it's a thermal cutout intended
to prevent excessive current flow.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Hi,
Are technical references for IBM XT's / 286 machines avaialbe from IBM
still? If so then I assume that they charge quite a bit of money for
them!
If you can't get them any longer, then has anyone scanned any of the
information and stuck it on the 'net anywhere? (Schematics are one
thing, I remember downloading lots of info on various things such as DMA
controller specs etc. a few years ago, and theamount of conflicting
information out there made it rather difficult to get anywhere!! :)
ta
Jules
I first discovered digital logic and TTL IC's about 1973, and wanted to
build something not trivial with them. The project I chose was John Conway's
game of "life" as described in Martin Gardner's Mathematical Games in
"Scientific American"
I ending using a 32x32 element grid using 2 (then expensive!) 2102 rams (No
A or other suffix then) I would calculate one generation from one ram and
write to the other. I used about a 60kHz clock and 74193 counters to
generate the addresses. The clock went to a decade counter and the first 8
states generated +/- x and y clocks to visit the 8 neighbors of a given
cell. If the cell was a "1", another counter was incremented, number of
neighbors. The 9'th state was at the given cell.
The rule was then used: Neighbors =2 and cell active, or Neighbors = 3, then
the new cell was active, otherwise it was not. The 10'th clock wrote the
cell to the new generation (the other ram). Thus 10 clock cycles were needed
for each cell, or 10240 for each generation. This was much faster than a
later 4MHz Z-80 program!
I displayed the results on a 5 inch oscilloscope, using 555 timers with PNP
transistor current sources to charge the timing capacitor, for x and y ramp
or deflection waveforms. This was straight out of a National Semiconductor
databook. The refresh rate was about 60Hz. The "load" signals for the
74193's was used to write data into locations from address switches. Finally
3 7490's and 7447's displayed the generation number on 7 segment displays.
It was fun to watch the generations flash by. The total number of IC's was
about 35 + 6 for the generation counter.
-Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 8:31
Subject: Re: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old
>> oh well with my 5150 it has two FH IBM drives in i and they both seem to
be
>> dead, Ive replaced the controllor card check the dips,
>> checked power output, it seems here in Austrlaia these drives are almost
>> impossable to get a hold of......
>
>I have schematics for these drives (in the IBM O&A TechRef) and the Tandy
>instructions for aligning the single-sided version. So I think we can get
>them working.
>
>You say they're 'dead'. How dead? Why you access them, does the motor
>start. Does the spindle rotate? Does the head carriage move to track 0
>when you first boot up the machine (turn off, move the head towards the
>spindle, turn on). Does the LED come on?
>
>Or do they seem to work, and go through all the motions, but give you
>data errors?
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>-tony
>
email: desieh(a)southcom.com.au
desieh(a)bigfoot.com
museum_curator(a)hotmail.com
Apple Lisa Web Page:
http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm
I get nothing out of them, no motor spin up, no led, no
nothing...................
This is one of countless reasons that I regard the ADAM as not much more
<than a cruel joke ;) CP/M on a cassette based system? And one which
<uses a non-standard cassette format (off-the-shelf tapes won't work)...
<How many CP/M apps were produced in "Digital Data Pack" format? Any?
It was an attempt to produce a system that was low cost but still have a
block device (disk usually). The tapes were digital casette and was a
standard format for the time.
It was however an interesting machine. I'd love to find one and/or the
prints for it. I'm interested in how they did the tape system.
Allison
I have an old PC compatible computer and I also have a 14.4 Data/Fax
modem that uses the RS-232 port with the cable. My question is: how
can I get the two of them to work together. Can I use just a simple
term program to log onto a Unix host? How do I tell the computer that
I want it to check for the modem/phone line via the RS-232 port. My
computer also has a 2400 baud modem that isn't in use.
Thanks for any help!
--
____________________________________________________________
| Cord G. Coslor : archive(a)navix.net |\
| Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue(a)navix.net | |
| on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | |
| http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | |
|------------------------------------------------------------| |
| PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | |
|------------------------------------------------------------| |
| If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | |
| chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | |
|____________________________________________________________| |
\_____________________________________________________________\|
Hi:
I just picked up an older style laptop that I need some hlp on. It is
a Toshiba T2200SX laptop. It is a 386 I believe, 3.5" floppy drive,
80 something meg hard drive, black and white LCD VGA display running
Windows 3.1. Here's what I am looking for, or at least some advice on
where to direct this help request to.
1) I need a battery for this unit. I have the power supply, but the
battery with it won't charge. The battery I have is made by Toshiba
and is model # PA2404U. Please let me know if you have one of these
or know where I could find one!
2) Modem. It has a 2400 baud modem with it. It is of the more modern
style (I think) in that the modem is a small card that inserts in the
side. It is labeled T24M - Modem - 2400 BPS - MNP5. On the back is
PC22-T24M. Here's the problem... there is a small 'port' that
supposedly is used for a special cable to connect the phone line to.
It doesn'e have the cable for the modem to the phone line. I am
interested in knowing where I may be able to find this special cable
to be able to use this modem. Also curious to know if the model of
laptop will handle new laptop modems. I know that many modern laptops
use this type of modem (slide in card), and would be willing to just
get a new modem if I can't find this special cable for this
particular modem.
3) Additional memory: It has 2 meg of RAM internally. In addition,
there is a 2 meg card, similar to the modem, that slides in on the
opposite side of the laptop. It is labeled Enhance Memory Products,
Inc., TMC02 2MB -- my question is: can I add additional memory... a
larger card? Are newer laptop memory cards compatible with this
computer
Anyway help would be greatly appreciated. If you have some of the
above items, please let me know and include the price you're willing
to sell it for. Also, a pointer to a better place to take this
request to (is there such a place? :-) would also be much
appreciated!
Thanks,
CORD COSLOR
--
____________________________________________________________
| Cord G. Coslor : archive(a)navix.net |\
| Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue(a)navix.net | |
| on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | |
| http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | |
|------------------------------------------------------------| |
| PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | |
|------------------------------------------------------------| |
| If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | |
| chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | |
|____________________________________________________________| |
\_____________________________________________________________\|
Could someone describe to me the Colecovision family entertainment
system? It's a dual cassette deck with expansion ports, cartridge
ports, a phone jack, and 9-pin ports. Processor? RAM?
Also, I saw a Tandy Sensation (I think) system. Not quite classic,
it's and MPC 1 machine, looks like a DECpc. Has anyone known it?
Lastly, I saw an Apple //c setup guide. Why does it say only to use
the computer propped up by the handle?
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Dang... it's ads like this that make me wish, sometimes, that I were a
lot closer to the midwest....
Anyway... if you're in a better position than me, and want to give a
good home to a darn good VAXen (definitely late-model), get in touch with
this guy.
-=-=- <snip> -=-=-
Message-ID: <356CD657.852FEBD4(a)sysman-inc.com>
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:13:27 -0500
From: "Mark E. Levy" <levy(a)sysman-inc.com>
Reply-To: levy(a)sysman-inc.com
Organization: System Management Associates, Inc.
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Subject: VAX 3900 Free for the taking
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blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!chicago-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.dls.net!209.100.242.150
Xref: blushng.jps.net comp.os.vms:2601 comp.sys.dec:928
misc.computers.forsale:317
Available immediately:
VAX 3900, 32Mb, no licenses.
KDB50
Ethernet
KLESI
(2) RA90
(2) RA70
Emulex UC07 SCSI controller
TU81+
Complete only. Removing any part diminishes the value of the rest, and
I don't want to have to scrap it.
20 Miles north of Chicago. You pick it up or pay for shipping.
Serious inquiries only.
--
Mark E. Levy
System Management Associates, Inc.
OpenVMS, MacOS, Windows 95/NT, Networks
levy(a)sysman-inc.com
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, SysOp,
The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272)
kyrrin {at} j<p>s d[o]t n=e=t
"...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe
an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly
define any of them!..."
<There's a little locking clip inside the drive assembly that holds the
<heads in place mechanically. Just flip it over the end of the retracted
<head assembly and tighten it with a screwdriver.
that would be the early model RL02s. The later ones it was a plastic
spring loaded arrangement that was pushed out of the way by installing
the pack. Transport all of them without a pack installed.
Allison
