test-drb

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

101090 discussions

by foxnhare＠goldrush.com

Haven't had all that much thrifting lately so I have been pretty quiet. I just wanted to post about my jaunt to San Jose last weekend (for those of you not familiar with the region it is pretty much the center of what they call Silicon Valley). First off for those of you who live in the area, you guys drive like maniacs, you know there things called 'speed limits' and many cars are equipped with a 'turn signal' to signal switching lanes. Ok back on topic (if this were very much on topic), while my wife attended the 'Rubberama Rubber Stamp Show' I had the opportunity to check out 'theTech Museum of Innovation' It was very facinating obviously it has been supported by Intel with a mock-up clean room displaying the processes of making chips with examples, machine displays and videos. (you can even buy shiny 'bunny-suit' dolls in the gift shop) Also there was a rather interesting section on robotics, some on recycling, and a section devoted to space exploration but save for a few snapshots (of Woz's workbench and HP's garage) there was not any classic computers to be seen *sigh*. Oh and an internet/computer instruction center too, but I didn't spend much time there. The said some of the exhibits are on the new building (scheduled to be opened October 31st) so if you are thinking of visiting in the future you may want to wait. I did pick up an interesting souviner, a small hunk of processed silicon (looks like leftovers from the vats where they form the ingots). I only bought one and now think I sould have stocked up - for stocking stuffers and the like (Hey, if any of you volunteer there or go by the museum, could I get you to purchase some more for me? please???) So six bucks gets you adult admission. If you are interested in the chip manufacturing process and want to see some robots and stuff I think it's worth the money (and if you are too cheap for $6.00 at least you can see the billiard ball display just outside the entrance.) Oh, here's the web address for more details on the place: http://www.thetech.org/ -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

28 years

Microprocessors and who made them?

by dastar＠wco.com

Is there a reference somewhere listing all the different microprocessors ever made and who the designers were? Preferrably such a list would include a way (or hint of a way) to contact the designer of said microprocessor. Thanks! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98]

28 years

What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<What do you believe the frequency changed to ? (nominal 60Hz, right. <Well, anything from 50Hz to 70Hz (say) would be no problem at all). Id sueggest if you average 0hz(no power!) and 60 hs you may get someting inbetween. However the 0hz state must not exceed 8-10 cycles or you will no question get power fail. ;) Likely the power supplies dropped out whe the line voltage got below 88v. Most of those supplies will regulate down to that. However if there is also a dropout at 88V it will stop regulating as there will not be enough stored energy in the caps to hold it up. FYI: 400hz not only gets you smaller transformers it also reduces the size of the filter caps needed to remove the ripple from the rectifiers. The size and weight difference is significant when you combine the two. Allison

28 years

What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else?

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

Ours did that Friday, and the servers aren't happy with it. I'm heading in now to clean the mess up. Just out of curiosity, is there an actual term for this? Does it sounds like BS? And, what do you think it did to the MicroVAXen... We were told this was what had happened by the power company, does it sound like BS or what? -------

28 years

Final Xerox Star demo

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

What processor did it use? Also, what will be done to the machine after the "last run"? >On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Larry Groebe wrote: > >> >Is there someone to contact by phone to see if there will be videotapes >> >available? >> > >> >thanks >> > >> >Kai >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com] >> >Sent: Monday, June 01, 1998 3:17 PM >> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >Subject: Final Xerox Star demo >> > >> > >> >>Xerox PARC is giving one final demonstration of the original Xerox Star >> >>workstation built in 1981. This may be the last time it gets >> >>demoed, as the hardware has begun failing due to its age. Don't miss >> >>this opportunity to witness one of the most important steps ever taken in >> >>the history of computing and user interface design. >> >> >> Better yet, has anyone given thought to the viability of building a Star >> emulator? How fast could those things have been? > >Not terribly. IIRC, there was a discernable lag between keystroke and >the appearance of the character on the monitor screen! > > - don >> --Larry >> > > donm(a)cts.com >*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 >*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj > visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm > with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years

RL02 Me 2

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Well, since we have raised the topic of RL02... I have a pair that I (for some reason) would like to have hanging on my freshly-undead 11/34. I have the RL11 (M7762) and two 02s, whose 'READY' lites have '0' and '1' respectively. I have no other docs or info presently. [NOTE I would love to purchase / pay for copying / trade for these docs] I have put the controller in place of a bus grant cardlet, and have the cables properly done and the terminator on drive '1'. I have a disk pack marked RT-ll V5 that was in drive 0 when I got them, and all the hardware came as a (once working) set. I have the old 9301 boot card in now... I have a 9312 that came with the RL02 system but it causes the 11/34 to hang on power-up. From posts addressed to Zane.. I think that I have controller issues... and I certainly have no idea how to place/configure the RL11.. but at least the Magic Smoke is staying in the ICs where it belongs. *********************** Second question: I have several RT-11 disks for the RK05... they *all* boot from ODT (via the 'DK' command) but once KMON is active it gets autistic... the dot prompt appears, but any and all commands elicit the ?ILL CMD? response.... and that's it. It does this with each and every one (6 discs so far) I have the docs for RT-11 V2, and the Quick Reference booklets... and a working 11/73 with V5 on it.. so I'm a little familiar with RT-11. Does this above behavior point to anything stupid I'm doing, or......? And to think: I gave up Volunteer Bomb Disposal for this...... Cheers John

28 years

Final Xerox Star demo

by lgroebe＠insidermarketing.com

>Is there someone to contact by phone to see if there will be videotapes >available? > >thanks > >Kai > >-----Original Message----- >From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com] >Sent: Monday, June 01, 1998 3:17 PM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Final Xerox Star demo > > >>Xerox PARC is giving one final demonstration of the original Xerox Star >>workstation built in 1981. This may be the last time it gets >>demoed, as the hardware has begun failing due to its age. Don't miss >>this opportunity to witness one of the most important steps ever taken in >>the history of computing and user interface design. Better yet, has anyone given thought to the viability of building a Star emulator? How fast could those things have been? --Larry

28 years

Final Xerox Star demo

by engine＠chac.org

At 15:28 6/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >Is there someone to contact by phone to see if there will be videotapes >available? Me too please? I'll be in New York on the 17th.... __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine(a)chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California

28 years

Books

by rcini＠email.msn.com

On Sun, 31 May 1998 09:39:22 -0500, John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> wrote: >>I think Gates & Allen's first "company" was "Traf-o-data", run on >>someone else's PDP equipment. I recall it was analyzing traffic >>data. I only remember because about the same time, I was doing >>nearly the same thing as my Eagle Scout project, summarizing >>traffic and accident data for a city. Gates and Foust, the >>ominous parallels, oh yeah. :-) I thought that it was a custom piece of hardware that they used. Maybe that was the front-end. The book "Gates" is in the attic;I'll have to get it. Rich Cini/WUGNET <nospam_rcini(a)msn.com> (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking Collector of classic computers <<<========== Reply Separator ==========>>>

28 years

Final Xerox Star demo

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

| -----Original Message----- | From: Larry Groebe [mailto:lgroebe@insidermarketing.com] | Sent: Monday, June 01, 1998 3:34 PM | To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers | Subject: Re: Final Xerox Star demo | | Better yet, has anyone given thought to the viability of building a Star | emulator? I've got one! It's called an "Apple Lisa" :) Kai

28 years

Final Xerox Star demo

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Is there someone to contact by phone to see if there will be videotapes available? thanks Kai -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com] Sent: Monday, June 01, 1998 3:17 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Final Xerox Star demo >Xerox PARC is giving one final demonstration of the original Xerox Star >workstation built in 1981. This may be the last time it gets >demoed, as the hardware has begun failing due to its age. Don't miss >this opportunity to witness one of the most important steps ever taken in the >history of computing and user interface design. > > Final Demo of the Xerox Star Workstation > 5:30 to 7:00pm > Wednesday June 17th > Auditorium Xerox PARC > > > Unquestionably, one of the major design innovations of this century >has been the Graphical User Interface, with its desktop, icons, pop-up >and pull-down menus and ubiquitous windows. The explosion of computer usage >in the last decade has in large part been made possible through this simpler >and more direct method of user interaction. > > Though millions of people around the world are now using GUIs, few >outside of the Human/Computer Interaction field or the Silicon Valley >are aware of the history of the its design prior to the introduction >of the Macintosh in 1984. > > The first GUI ever developed was the work of Dr. Douglas Englebart, >a researcher at SRI (the Stanford Research Institute in Menlo Park, CA) in the >mid-1960s. His visionary and pioneering design and prototypes succeeded in >producing the world's first screen-based windows, cursor-selectable pop-up >menus, as well as the mouse with which to interact with them. > > Though these innovations were truly revolutionary, it was not until >a decade later when researchers at the Xerox Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) >began systematically studying this system in a commericial development effort. >The Xerox Alto personal computer workstation was developed in the late 70's >and included a mouse pointing system. This system influenced later systems >such as Bravo, which was developed at Xerox PARC by Bruce Lampson and included >an integrated editor formatter. Later systems included Markup, Draw, and Star. > > Xerox Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) has been a cradle of Silicon >Valley innovation for 25 years. Its research spans domains from atoms >to anthropology, from its solid-state physics lab, which develops new >laser diodes for use in printers and copiers, to the group that studies >work practices and their possible impact on current and future products. > > Located in the Stanford University Industrial Park in the heart of >Silicon Valley, PARC was charged upon its founding in 1970 to the >"architect of the information age". Since then it has delivered into >use such significant pieces of the current information infrastructure >as laser printers, graphical user interfaces, object-oriented >programming languages, and Ethernet local area networks. PARC has >contributed to user interfaces, electronic components, embedded >software and architectures for each new line of Xerox copiers, >printers, and systems reprographics products. > > > > Directions to Xerox PARC > >>From Highway 101, take the Oregon Expressway exit west 2 miles to >El Camino Real. Oregon Expressway becomes Page Mill Road at El Camino. Follow >Page Mill Road 1.7 miles to Coyote Hill Road (no light) and turn left. Coyote >Hill Road is just past the intersection with >Foothill Expressway. Go one-half mile and PARC will be on your left. >Follow the signs to the auditorium. > >>From Interstate 280, take the Page Mill Road exit. Go east one mile >to Coyote Hill Road (no light) and turn right. Go one-half mile and >PARC will be on your left. Follow the signs to the auditorium.

28 years

What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else?

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Who exactly decided that there was a frequency change? It seems strange that they could have known if there are no monitors to check and this is not a central problem. Of course, if this was a resonant transformer and the guy shorted it, or he hooked the transformer to a portable generator that the construction company was using, or he temporarily powered it with a solenoid using a jackhammer for a slug... >> Who knows hertz and 60 volts. A serviceman across the hall did something > >Let me guess. 60Hz and 60V. It's very difficult (I'd say impossible, but >then somebody will find a way !) to change mains frequency by miswiring a >transformer. Voltage, sure. > >Actually, I do have a device somewhere that provides the 25Hz for UK >telephone bells from the AC mains. It contains a transformer with a >winding resonated to 25Hz by a capacitor. And it's 'kicked' into >oscillations by a 50Hz mains winding on the same core. But that's hardly >the sort of thing you can make 'by accident'. > >> [When you get to the machine room, power line monitors etc.] >> Don't make me laugh! Our machine room is a closet. > >That doesn't prevent you having power line monitors. > >> Oh, and who uses 400hz for line frequency? > >I've seen it used on aircraft equipment (small, light transformers and >smoothing caps). Didn't IBM use it on some mainframes/minis? > >> >> I am officially here, by the way. CILCO is still yelling at A&B Construction >> (Or whomever they were...) and my boss wants to go help. The machines >> seemed to care more about halving the line voltage (Which I wasn't told > >Oh, indeed. Halving the line voltage will cause all sorts of problems. >Few power supplies can cope with that and give the rated outputs. > >> about) than the frequency change... >> ------- >> > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years

IBM stuff

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

And then WYSE can post their patents and try to sue them both! > >John, > > Hey, that really looks great! I heard a while back that IBM was going to >post all of their patents on the net. Now if HP will just do the same! > > Joe > >At 07:56 PM 5/31/98 -0400, you wrote: >>Hey Joe, >>Check this out!! I was looking for an IBM web site that might have your >>SCSI drive infomation on it when I stumbled upon this!! Boy...it's been a >>long time since I thought about this stuff!! >> >>http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4541168 >> >>John >> > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years

Spring CP/M-UG N.W. Swap Meet this Saturday

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

For those in the N.W. Oregon / S.W. Washington area (or those inclined to drive a bit) B^} The 'n'th Annual Spring edition of the CP/M-UG Swap Meet will occur on Saturday June 6th, on Rose Festival Parade day just as always. It will be held in the lower level of the Senior Citizens Center on Omera, just south of the Tigard (Oregon) City Hall on Hall Blvd. (not too hard to reach from I-5 or Hwy-217) As always, it's Free, Easy, and Non-Fattening! (except perhaps to your wallet or garage, depening on your approach!) Bring your Junk, your Treasures, and your Wallet! The only rule is... Leave Nothing Behind! (NO garbage service!) Address: 8815 S.W. Omera (Just south of Fanno Creek on Hall Blvd.) Tigard, OR. Hours: 0800 to 1500 or whenever the good stuff runs out! (8am to 3pm for the layfolk) Fees: No charge! (we pass the hat for contributions) NOTE: Tailgating is encouraged! Some of the best deals are made in the parking lot! (before, during, and after!) See you there! --- For additional details, (directions, etc.) call Gary @ Oregon Electronics (503) 293-5293 or drop me a e-mail. -jim --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

28 years

RL-02 Question

by healyzh＠ix.netcom.com

In the pile of stuff I got yesterday was an RL-02 and a Q-Bus controller for it. I've placed the Q-Bus controller in one of my SMS-1000's (PDP-11/73), and am trying to get the drive to spin up. Looking through my archives of the mailing list, it looks like the drive itself is fine. I think my problem is on the PDP end. The motor spins for about 15 seconds, I hear the click, but the fault light stays on. I've reversed the way I've got the cable plugged into the board, but still know luck. I suspect my problem is that the SMS-1000 doesn't support RL-02's. The Boot ROM's seem to be built into the beast, and I suspect it only supports Hard Drives (DU), TK50's and floppies. I guess my next project is to try and attach a TK-50 to the machine, as I got a small stack of TK50's with the stuff yesterday, and it looks like they've got TSX-11-something on them. Do PDP-11's have the VAX equivalent of Standalone Backup? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |

28 years

Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old

by desieh＠southcom.com.au

-----Original Message----- From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, 26 May 1998 22:27 Subject: Re: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old >At 06:44 PM 5/26/98 +1000, you wrote: >> >> >>I have one question , well I actually have two...... >>though, what software came on cassetes? >>and what is the most common fault in the IBM full height floppy drives that >>makes them die??? >> > I dunno about the FH drives. I've never seen one die! They seem to >last forever! > > Joe > email: desieh(a)southcom.com.au desieh(a)bigfoot.com museum_curator(a)hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm oh well with my 5150 it has two FH IBM drives in i and they both seem to be dead, Ive replaced the controllor card check the dips, checked power output, it seems here in Austrlaia these drives are almost impossable to get a hold of......

28 years

What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 1, 10:52, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Oh, and who uses 400hz for line frequency? > > Common AC distribution voltage on aircraft and other weight-is-important > vehicles. And on some IBM mainframes, I believe. A friend of mine obtained a 360, and was most upset when the previous owner decided to keep the 50Hz-to-400Hz converters. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

28 years

RL-02 Question

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 1, 7:41, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Even then, it only does 18-bit DMA, so whether it's useful depends on the > > O/S -- RSX11 and Unix manage fine > > Really? Which version RSX11M? Which Unix? Certainly the recent versions > of 11M+, as well as 2.10 and 2.11BSD, will crash very badly if you use > them on a system with more than 124 kWords of memory and a RLV11. My RSX11M 3.2 and 4.1 manage fine. AFAIR, it's supported -- it's certainly in the manual somewhere. The driver understands that it has to be careful about using the bottom 124K words for disk access. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

28 years

EC-1 (was Re: Re[2]: Computer Values)

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

At 09:23 PM 5/29/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Fri, 29 May 1998, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > >> FWIW, the company that currently sells Heathkit manual reprints doesn't >> look too kindly on people publishing web manuals from what I've heard. >> I'd sure like to publish my stash too if I could do so without getting sued. > >Hmm, I know that any patents associated with the EC-1 have expired by >now, but I don't recall how long a copyright lasts (more than 38 years, I >suspect). Yes, but are they still valid if the owner is out of business? I know the HK manuals are WIDELY copied and the copies sold. So are Tektronix, HP and a lot of others, and they're still in business! Joe > >-- Doug > >

28 years

RL-02 proves me an Idiot!

by healyzh＠ix.netcom.com

Well, I've got my RL-02 on the /73 working. The cable on the back had the locking key in the unlocked position. Arrrgggghhhhh, it took me a day to figure that one out! Lesson learned, visual inspections just don't cut it! Of course I don't seem to have Boot ROM's in the SMS-1000 that support the RL-02. I tell it to boot dl0: and it tells me it's an illegal device. Yet the RSX11M boot tape tells me that's the device name. I still haven't been able to figure out what they guy I got this stuff off of could have been using to boot it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |

28 years

RL-02 Question

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On May 31, 20:53, Tony Duell wrote: > And I'm not sure if the RLV11 works in 22 bit addressing systems (Tim? > Allison?) I've only got 18 bit addressing CPUs here. It will work in a Q22 backplane providing you remove two links, which otherwise cause the RLV11 to use BC1/BD1 for "other than BDAL18/19". It has to be a straight backplane, with CD-interconnect, of course. Even then, it only does 18-bit DMA, so whether it's useful depends on the O/S -- RSX11 and Unix manage fine, but I don't know about RT-11. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

28 years

Anyone have a TS-11 bootstrap?

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

I'll be needing this soon... -------

28 years

New stuff, new questions

by dastar＠wco.com

I picked up some odd-balls recently. One item is called a Disk Storage Drive Diagnostic Unit made by a company called Information Storage Systems, Inc. Another unit I saw had a Sperry-Univac label on it. It's obvious what it is, but for what drives? The manual says Model 714 and 715 disk storage drives, but is that hard or floppy? I can't tell from the unit, although my guess would be hard disk. Anyone ever used, let alone heard, of one of these? I also got another, older model, but didn't get a manual with it. (You can find more of these at Mike Quinn Electronics in case you're interested). I also picked up a Standard Engineering Corporation Word Generator (WGR-241). It looks like it is a PDP-11 card, but I'm not totally sure (its got the big horse-teeth edge connector). On the front is 24 SPST switches, I guess for setting a 24-bit word. Any clues? I also got a TI program recorder (for the TI 99/4a) and a couple AtariLab software packages (starter set and Light module), which were little physical sciences experimenter kits for the Atari 400/800. They come with a carthridge for the program, and each one has a different set of sensors that plug into the computer. The start kit has a module that connects to the joystick port, and the other kits' sensors plug into this module so you can get simultaneous readings from different sensors I suppose. The starter kit had a letter in it addressed from one of the design staff thanking whoever recieved the package for their help in bringing the product to market. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98]

28 years

IBM patents

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Hey take a look at this "http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4541168". I wish the other computer companies would do this! Joe

28 years

IBM stuff

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

John, Hey, that really looks great! I heard a while back that IBM was going to post all of their patents on the net. Now if HP will just do the same! Joe At 07:56 PM 5/31/98 -0400, you wrote: >Hey Joe, >Check this out!! I was looking for an IBM web site that might have your >SCSI drive infomation on it when I stumbled upon this!! Boy...it's been a >long time since I thought about this stuff!! > >http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4541168 > >John >

28 years

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