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OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<competitor. Most Windows CE devices run off of UNIX-style processors, a What's a unix style processor? Allison

27 years, 10 months

Way to identify original IBM-PC?

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Can't you also tell by the BIOS date?? I seem to remember that the original PC had one of three BIOS dates: 4/24/81, 10/19/81, and 10/27/82. This in combination with looking for a cassette port should be a good way to tell. ================================== Rich Cini/WUGNET - Charter ClubWin! Member (6) - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of classic computers <<========== Reply Separator ==========>>

27 years, 10 months

OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Yep. I knew most of those. And SPARCs, PPC's, and, if you really want to go on a limb, anything that runs Linux. I was talking about processors, generally associated with UNIX, that also run Windows CE devices. Ciao, Tim -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 5:38 PM Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. > ><A processor from a company who's highest-end products are UNIX based, and ><similiar version (IE in the same family, such as Pentium is in the x86 ><family). Most Windows CE devices are based on HP/NEC PA-RISC (IIRC) ><processors, or SGI MIPS processors. > >Then Alpha, ARM, PDP-11, VAX, 680xx and sundry others are also since they >all run unix. > >careful about retrorevisionist terminology... > >Allison >

27 years, 10 months

Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Wasn't the i960 (the new Fast Ethernet chip) based on 432 archeticture? < Ciao, First of all the I960 is not a new eithernet chip it's off the high end single chip micro end where the 8096 and 80860 lived. 432 based... not even close. The 432 was a data object oriented system with a very unique bus. Aimed at ADA and Pascal type languages. Allison

27 years, 10 months

OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<A processor from a company who's highest-end products are UNIX based, and <similiar version (IE in the same family, such as Pentium is in the x86 <family). Most Windows CE devices are based on HP/NEC PA-RISC (IIRC) <processors, or SGI MIPS processors. Then Alpha, ARM, PDP-11, VAX, 680xx and sundry others are also since they all run unix. careful about retrorevisionist terminology... Allison

27 years, 10 months

Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Wasn't the i960 (the new Fast Ethernet chip) based on 432 archeticture? Ciao, Tim -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 4:32 PM Subject: Re: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. > ><I remember back in '98 when Doug Yowza wrote: ><> The Z8000. The iAPX432. Parallel processing. Voice recognition. >< ^^^^^^^ ><So you actually posess a 432 based machine? Impressive. I have only ><really heard about them in literature. Always sounded interesting. > >I have Intel docs for them. Old now, like early 80s. > >Allison >

27 years, 10 months

Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive

by emu＠ecubics.com

Hi John, RZ23 = 104 MB RZ23L = 121 MB cheers, emanuel

27 years, 10 months

OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

><competitor. Most Windows CE devices run off of UNIX-style processors, a > >What's a unix style processor? > > >Allison A processor from a company who's highest-end products are UNIX based, and a similiar version (IE in the same family, such as Pentium is in the x86 family). Most Windows CE devices are based on HP/NEC PA-RISC (IIRC) processors, or SGI MIPS processors. Ciao, Tim

27 years, 10 months

Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive

by mbg＠world.std.com

>I've got two Digital RZ23 3.5" SCSI drives I'd like to find some more >info on. I basically need the specs (cylinder, head, size, etc.) and >jumper settings. Anyone got anything? If you go to Seagate's website (www.seagate.com) you can find pages for conner drives... it'll have graphics which show the positions of jumpers. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 10 months

Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I remember back in '98 when Doug Yowza wrote: <> The Z8000. The iAPX432. Parallel processing. Voice recognition. < ^^^^^^^ <So you actually posess a 432 based machine? Impressive. I have only <really heard about them in literature. Always sounded interesting. I have Intel docs for them. Old now, like early 80s. Allison

27 years, 10 months

Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I've got two Digital RZ23 3.5" SCSI drives I'd like to find some more inf <on. I basically need the specs (cylinder, head, size, etc.) and jumper <settings. Anyone got anything? The RZ23 (there are two different ones) are either 105 or 120mb SCSI drives. The group of three(6pins, arranged 2x3) are the address. Check the various vax archives for more specs. Allison

27 years, 10 months

OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...))

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Would it be possible to have a control chip and a OS chip? You've got th <control chip, which contains address information on the OS chip, as well <other EXTREMELY basic ssytem info. Then you've got the OS chip, which <contains the OS. Because of the control chip, it could be as large as yo <wanted it. Check out the IRMX-86 and the 8213x chips... beenthere done that about 12-14 years ago. However in real life OS is software and control is CPU so that logical partition is the norm for most CPUs. It's generally in RAM but as noted there are plenty with bom based kernals and OSs. Allison

27 years, 10 months

OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<u have a GRiD Compass with bubble memory, you get an OS <that acts like it's in ROM, but bubbles are writable. Lessee here. My supercrate s100 has CPM/BIOS/Monitor in rom. takes about 3sec to selfcheck and boot. I have an s100 crate with a 2mb write once romdisk of my design. I also have a z80 system with an two intel BPK72 bubble memories on. Each one give 128kb of space. All easily predate the GRID. Allison

27 years, 10 months

OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...))

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Would it be possible to have a control chip and a OS chip? You've got the control chip, which contains address information on the OS chip, as well as other EXTREMELY basic ssytem info. Then you've got the OS chip, which contains the OS. Because of the control chip, it could be as large as you wanted it. I've also heard of a "Windows 98 on a chip" system, with 75MBPS through put. Sounds like the first decent way to load Windows... Ciao, Tim D. Hotze PS-Did any computers have GUI's built in? I think that I recall that a Tandy did, but nothing else... -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 2:09 PM Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...)) >On Jun 26, 21:15, Hotze wrote: >> I LOVE that idea. Now, it'd need to be EPROM, especially nowadays with >bug >> fixes, a new version every other day of the week, etc. but still, it's a >way >> cool concept. Which computers did this? > >Acorn's RISC PC has the OS (RISC OS 3.7) in ROM, about 4MB IIRC. The >original Archimedes range (1987) had RISC OS 2.0 in ROM (512K, IIRC). > Usually they're mask ROMs or OTPROMs. The OS is structured as a series of >about 80 relocatable modules, so if an upgrade is required, you load the >relevant replacement module into RAM, and the kernel changes the links that >point to it. Of course, changing the kernel module itself is a little more >tricky, but it can be done -- the first RISC OS 2 upgrades had instructions >on how to boot the system from a disk to load a new "utility module". > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York

27 years, 10 months

Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 26, 23:31, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Yes, LaTeX. Since it can actually be translated to other forms. A .PDF > is more or less a bitmap picture of what used to be text and is usually > unreadable -- Hell, last week at work I got an email with a .PDF > attachment that included the icon where the document said "examine the > attached bitmap" left over from its Word origin, but for some reason > clicking on that icon in the .PDF doesn't bring up the full picture. No, PDF is more-or-less PostScript. However, *some* PDF documents actually include scanned images, which of course are usually bitmaps because the creator didn't OCR them. Both PostScript and PDF files can contain text, vector graphics, and bitmap graphics. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 10 months

OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...))

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 26, 21:15, Hotze wrote: > I LOVE that idea. Now, it'd need to be EPROM, especially nowadays with bug > fixes, a new version every other day of the week, etc. but still, it's a way > cool concept. Which computers did this? Acorn's RISC PC has the OS (RISC OS 3.7) in ROM, about 4MB IIRC. The original Archimedes range (1987) had RISC OS 2.0 in ROM (512K, IIRC). Usually they're mask ROMs or OTPROMs. The OS is structured as a series of about 80 relocatable modules, so if an upgrade is required, you load the relevant replacement module into RAM, and the kernel changes the links that point to it. Of course, changing the kernel module itself is a little more tricky, but it can be done -- the first RISC OS 2 upgrades had instructions on how to boot the system from a disk to load a new "utility module". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 10 months

Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

>I think cost had something to do with it, too. Cost shouldn't have anything to do with innovation. It's really a bummer. >BTW, I enjoy collecting over-hyped innovations that never quite caught on >in the way they were supposed to: Bubbles. Pen-based computers. Touch >screens. Wireless networks. Bob. MSX. Robots. AI. Home automation. >The Z8000. The iAPX432. Parallel processing. Voice recognition. Pen-based computers, although not a BOOMING success, have had a limited success. Their gaining momentum, too. Robots? Once again, go into a factory. You'll see them at work. BTW, how rare are Androbots? Wireless networks? I've seen a fwe. But I'd like more tech behind them. Bob? He was way cool. Then he died out. Too bad. AI is very much in a state of recession, as early depressions in the 80's took all the hype out of it. I say that we saw the last of current AI's with Deep Blue last year. They'll come back, but not until 64-bit is standard. Voice recognitions much the same as AI, but with a little more life, as it actually has some practical applications that are already partially-functional. >What did I miss? Bunches of processors, lots of RAM designs, some cool hard disk systems, and PC/TV integration. >-- Doug Tim D. Hotze

27 years, 10 months

OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Come to think of it, ALL of the Windows CE devices have their OS in ROM. *My* opinion is that for UNIX hardware, it's going to be UNIX's biggest competitor. Most Windows CE devices run off of UNIX-style processors, as that's the only way that they can get any speed inexpensively and with a decent battery life. Ciao, Tim -----Original Message----- From: Ward Donald Griffiths III <gram(a)cnct.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 9:14 AM Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. >Doug Yowza wrote: >> >> On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: >> >> > I belive Apple's Newtons have the OSes in ROM. They certainly do boot >> > quickly and a chip swap is need to upgrade the OS. >> >> Later Newts, including the eMate, are flash upgradable. A quick boot >> doesn't require a ROM OS, though. Windows is a slow booter even when >> ROM'd, but battery-backed RAM gives many portables an instant boot even >> with Windows. >> >> Of course, if you have a GRiD Compass with bubble memory, you get an OS >> that acts like it's in ROM, but bubbles are writable. > >Yes, and bubbles rival floppies for speed. There's a _reason_ why >that innovation didn't catch on. >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_

27 years, 10 months

Inventory Control (was Re: "No name" S-100 computer)

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com> wrote: > I'm pretty new to the collecting game, but I'm already having trouble > keeping machines, parts, software, manuals, and releated stuff tractable. > I've picked-up some barcode reading equipment with the idea that one day > I'll encode the contents of all of my boxes, and tie it to all together > with a database that include historical info, condition info, and other > notes. Doug, you live in a part of California that has a dry climate. How do you propose to affix barcodes to boxes? Are they sticky labels? Have you noticed that the sticky stuff turns brittle after a while (like, say, three years or so), and the labels become susceptible to falling off? Not that I want to discourage you, you understand. Besides, the inventory number is precious little of what I want to log, it just wouldn't save me that much typing. OK, that said, the schema of my database looks something like this at present: Number: an inventory item number. Type: a one-word description of just what sort of object is described by this record; types thus far are: Ad (advertisement or marketing materials) Article (magazine article or photocopy thereof) Book (includes manuals) HW (hardware) LST (listing) Papers Part Periodical (really should be "serial") Pkg (package - generally packaging material or a complete boxed package) Refcard Supplies SW (software) Title: title or brief description of object Author: the author Manufacturer: the manufacturer or publisher of the object. Manufacture Date: manufacture or publishing date ISBN: ISBN number LCCN: Library of Congress Catalog Number Model: model name/number Part Number: manufacturer's part number Version: version Volume#Number: Volume#number for serials Serial: manufacturer's serial number Acquisition Date: date when I got it Source: where I got it from Location: where it is now (box ID or shelf location) Home Location: where it normally lives ToDo: flag: does this need work? (see notes) Notes: free-form text notes, containing additional description, relationship to other items, work that needs to be done Dates are actually text fields, because most database software has really Procrustean date handling that wants to make everything fit its idea of a datestamp. The syntax I use goes like this: yyyy[/mm[/dd]][~] where [] surrounds optional text, yyyy is year, mm is month, dd is day-of-month, and ~ means "approximate". People's names are always in "Last, First" format. ... I say the schema is "something like this" because it is changing, again. I'm fooling around with New Software, actually several New Softwares that are all several-years-old dBase-alikes that run on my HP200LX palmtop. Prior to that it's been through several iterations, most of which are still there because I haven't re-inventoried stuff, done with Lotus 1-2-3 (one row per item) and the HP 100/200LX ROM'd database software (which has a limit of 5000 records per database that is past being a looming problem, hence me looking for new software). And yes, some of the ways I do things (like having only one note field) is due to architectural limitations of the previous software. ... Oh yeah, and how do I label boxes? Well, I use those hinged-lid plastic containers that you can get at Costco. They're sort of transparent, so I just write the box numbers on 5x8" index cards with a broad felt-tip marker and drop them in so I can see them through the sides. No worries about labels falling off. -Frank McConnell

27 years, 10 months

720K drives on an original PC was Re: Way to identify original IBM-PC?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 98-06-26 21:30:20 EDT, you write: << 720K drives will work fine on the original drive controller AFTER you load the driver file. I've done it dozens of times to connect my NEC Multi-Speed drives to the PC. The only problem is that you can't boot from them since the driver has to be loaded for them to work. I don't *think* the 1.44 Mb drives will work on the controller though. Joe >> i've never needed a driver file in my case. for example, i have a few xt models around here and when i need to install dos or copy files over from a later computer with only a 3.5 drive, i just plug a 720k floppy into the drive controller cable in place of the 360k drive and i'm off and running. i think i could boot off the 720 drive also. you are correct in that 1.44 drives are not supported, although i do have an adaptor card that will let hi density drives work in an xt. david

27 years, 10 months

Aim65 computers F/S

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Hello, all: I got a line on about 9 AIM65-based computer systems. These systems not only include the AIM, but also a custom-made case, power supply, keyboard, and miscellaneous related stuff. These would go for about $100 each + S/H. These units are supposed to be new, being built for a specific project which never got off the ground. Those interested, e-mail me separately. Thanks! ================================== Rich Cini/WUGNET - Charter ClubWin! Member (6) - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of classic computers <<========== Reply Separator ==========>>

27 years, 10 months

OS's In ROMs (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...))

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<operating systems in rom? that seems fairly popular. my atari portfolio h <dos in rom as well as my tandy 100 has apps in rom. even the original 201 <PS1 had dos in rom. Not to mention Epson PX-8 (and a few others) when CP/M OS in rom and applications in roms (cartridges) as well. Allison

27 years, 10 months

Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I like system 6 much more than the later ones because I think it holds truer to the theory of simplicity and ease-of-use. Try sticking a MacOS 8 system folder on a RAMdisk and boot off that! Will never work. System 6 you could do that on, I've tried. Another feature of System 6 was a macro recorder which has been replaced by the more difficult Applescript. >I don't know of any other Macs with that feature either, and I'll bet that >there were none. It was a somewhat Spartan version (not as unpleasant as >a boot floppy, much less pleasant than a fancy hard-drive installation). >Now that Systems 7 and 8 have taken over, it probably would seem pretty >barren. It sure is fast though! But none of your Finder preferences get >saved. (Where would they go?) They could go to PRAM, but I guess they didn't. What's the tag? >BTW, if you "Get Info" on the virtual hard drive, you'll see an amusing >tag in the "Location" field. > >-- Derek > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

Heads-up: Cleveland OH, mini's etc

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

Nasa Lewis has some old computer stuff up for bid, including a couple PDP-11's and an IBM 7015 (whatever that is!). Here are some URLs: http://ltwebp.lerc.nasa.gov/980010detail.htm http://ltwebp.lerc.nasa.gov/sales.htm A partial list follows. Note that there were several of some of these items, and some of them had different notes attached. Inspection day is Thursday, July 9th from 7:30 am to 3:00. Bids will be opened Wednesday, July 15th at 1:00 pm. I don't know if there is an earlier deadline for getting bids in. There are other rules too (of course). See those web pages for more info. PROCESSOR, DIGITAL DATA CONCURRENT COMPUTER 3250XP 600 # 30" X 45" X 50" COMPUTER, MINI IBM 7015 3'X2'X6' 300# CONTROL, COMPUTER STORAGE TECHNOLOGY CORP 4670 30"X24"X52" 400# TAPE DRIVE UNIT STORAGE TECHNOLOGY CORP 4674 30"X31"X52" 450# DISK DRIVE UNIT SEAGATE 47177701 COMPUTER, MINI SOLBOURNE COMPUTER 5E900 4'X4'X6', 500 LBS. TAPE DRIVE UNIT TRIMM IND DA20V1R PART OF T/N 1109700 COMPUTER, MICRO CONCURRENT COMPUTER 6605 80 # 32 CHANNEL PROCESSOR, DIGITAL DATA DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP MNC11DA IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# INPUT MODULE DIGITAL MNCDI IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# OUTPUT MODULE DIGITAL MNCDO IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# CHASSIS, EXPANSION CONCURRENT COMPUTER 20 # 16 CHANNELS DISK DRIVE UNIT DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP RL01A IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# DISK DRIVE UNIT DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP RL02 IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# COMPUTER, MINI DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP 11-24XX DISK DRIVE UNIT DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP 70-12130 COMPUTER, MINI DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP PDP11/24 DISK DRIVE UNIT DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP RL02 27"X19"X11",60#, WON'T POWER UP DISK DRIVE UNIT IBM 3380 44"X32"X70" 325# If only I had a basement, a truck, and a couple days of spare time... Have fun! Bill.

27 years, 10 months

Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Sure, we'd all buy, at least in the interest of solidarity, but I'm not sure how many others would. Either way, I don't know how many people are alive now and able to access the 'net that have ever touched a PERQ >You could release it in pdf format on the internet with a $5 shareware >fee, or something. I'd certainly buy it, and I'm sure lots of other >people (such as the ones who subscribe to this list) would as well. The >information is invaluable. > >Tom Owad > >Sysop of Caesarville Online >Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/> > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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