test-drb

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

101090 discussions

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

Ok, one step closer. The description of core in the PDP-8/a miniprocessor users manual shows the wires going straight through the cores. Is this correct? I'd expect the wire to make one or two turns around the core so that the magnetic field it induced would be "inside" the torroid. Comments? What about driving voltages? I've got a +/- 36v @ 3amps supply here, the PDP-8 uses its 15 volt supplies. I'm building a simply push-pull direct coupled amp out of a couple of transistors to send the signal that Allison drew. I'm using a Parallax BASIC Stamp to generate the waveforms (I could use the HP but then it wouldn't be portable) Sense wire? Straight through the core or also with a wrap? --Chuck

26 years, 1 month

Leaky nicad battery

by edick＠idcomm.com

First, desolder the battery. If there's so much residue on the PCB that you feel you need to brush it off, a toothbrush (if you have an old one, else use someone else's) will serve to clear away the glutch. Then, use the toothbrush to scrub the area where the battery was with alcohol. Then apply diswashing soap or some other liquid detergent, and scrub with that, then wash all traces of detergent off the board with hot tap water and remove the water any way you can, avoiding mechanical stress on the board. If you want the board to work properly, you'll have to make some provision for a battery to replace the leaky one. An external arrangement of some sort will serve nicely, but you'll probably have to reconfigure the jumper(s) governing where the battery voltage is to be obtained. External arrangements vary some, so it's up to your ingenuity to figure that out. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mark <mark_k(a)iname.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 12:27 PM Subject: Leaky nicad battery >Hi, > >I have an old PC which has a leaky nicad battery soldered to the PCB. There is >stuff coming out of the battery, which has corroded the PCB traces near it. >This is probably the reason why the machine doesn't work properly. > >Can anyone recommend an effective method of cleaning off this stuff so that >further corrosion does not occur? When it comes to repairing PCB traces, I >guess I'll just have to solder some wires in place. > > >-- Mark >

26 years, 1 month

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

I resemble that remark! First of all, my man, I'm not technically a senior citizen . . . yet . . . but I'm practicing. I've always been somewhat obnoxious, and you would know know, I imagine, about the propriety of any remark in this forum, since much of what you publish here would be inappropriate in any forum. I appreciate your choice of words, though. It seems you've got a real chip on your shoulder, Sellam, and I wonder why. If you look at the remark to which you refer in the context from which it was taken, you'd realize that it was quoted in the context that California tends to have an assortment of opinion which goes farther toward the extremes than many less collectively "enlightened" and, perhaps therefore, tolerant, regions of the planet. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 2:34 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Well Hans, there's this saying, a derogatory one directed at California, but >> not totally without foundation that "Whenever there's a tremor, all the >> loose nuts roll to California." > >Yeah, and there are plenty of derogatory remarks that can be directed at >senior citizens being obnoxious curmudgeons, but they're inappropriate for >this forum. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >

26 years, 1 month

Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC")

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

At 12:51 AM 4/24/99 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, James Willing wrote: > >> So, do you have a mark-sense reader? Or should I still plan to bring mine? >> (never quite ready to give up!) B^} > >Yes, but mine is an old HP Optical Mark Reader and I've never played with >it yet so I don't know what's involved in running it or interfacing with >it. Is yours a ScanTron? Yep. I have a pair of ScanTrons. One is the stand alone quiz grading unit, and the other is the general purpose form (page) scanner. I've also got an HP or two... -jim --- jimw(a)computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

26 years, 1 month

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Where is the difference to the 70s and 80s ? The knee is around 75ish when the micro started to gain momentum the next knee is at 80-81 with a large number of user ready machine stepping up to the rail. '85 is the next in my mind where the market took a distinct shift and z80/6502 dominance took a noiceable down turn for the 80286/68k battle. There are more but during that time we would see vendors of quality system disappear from the noticable market shift. The in 80s one nearly killed MS (ok it scared them)! Allison

26 years, 1 month

More new toys

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Upon the date 02:17 PM 4/24/99 +1000, Karl Maftoum said something like: > >Latest finds: > >Picked up a nice Motorola MVME chassis + cards (68000), the system works >are runs OS-9, still playing with it :-) Anyone got any info on this >system? Well, for starters tell us what the module designations are (such as MVME122, MVME204-1, MVME400, etc., etc.). The crate may also be marked with something like MVME945 or ? I'm most familiar with Moto's products. What version OS-9? > >Also 2x Sun3/50's and monitors. > >Not bad for mornings drive :-) Wish I could simply drive around in the morning and pickup stuff like this :-) Good haul! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa

26 years, 1 month

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

The Apple-][ most certainly did come with built-in Video. That's just about all that was built-in. BTW, I just gave away one which had an APPLE brand monitor with it. I bought seven of these at one time, because they did something I didn't want to have to reinvent, but though the video monitor came with it, the Apple video is not the monitor, it's the refresh memory and the video control and timing logic to support it. Of course I've still got one with only a single drive, + multiple controllers each capable of either two or four drives, and a bunch of other cards, etc. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 10:01 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s >> The Apple ][ would qualify, it came with built-in video. > >The Apple ][ did not come with a built-in monitor; a monitor was not even >available from the manufacturer. > >The PDP-8/e with VT8-E that I mentioned earlier was shipped by DEC with the >VT8-E installed, and DEC provided a monitor. > >You are making distinctions even more arbitrary (IMHO) than most of the >"first PC" arguments. It seems like you are picking your criteria in order >to get an answer you've already selected.

26 years, 1 month

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well Hans, there's this saying, a derogatory one directed at California, but not totally without foundation that "Whenever there's a tremor, all the loose nuts roll to California." Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 8:42 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >> > The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach <snip> >> > hadn't yet learned to run to California. > >> Whatever. > >Must be true, Now I'm able to run for California >(and I'll do it again for VCF3.0 :). > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK

26 years, 1 month

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

No, Sam, those were not necessarily MY attitudes. I, after all, was only 6 years old during most of 1952. However, I'd submit that my statement is more or less correct, inasmuch as most Americans had no idea what a digital computer was in 1952. My grandfather worked for one of New York's large banks back then, and HE was a computer. He spent his time at work with those VERY tall multiple-entry ledgers you see in the old-time movies, adding up the columns in his head and recording the sum in india ink just as people had done it a century before. That was about 50x as quick and generally as accurate as the at that time not so common mechanical calculators which some time later filled accounting departments throughout the world. Guys like my grandpa didn't cost as much as ENIAC, or BISMAC, or whatever was the model of the day, and they got the work done. That's what the average American thought of when you asked him about a computer, though most didn't really even recognize the word. In 1954-55 a friend of my parents bought an airplane for $300. He also liked those British sports cars, which traded, 2nd-hand for about $300 in the late '50's, though they were not that "reasonable" by the time I wanted one (goodness only knows why I wanted it). Back to the attitudes . . . I certainly hope that you don't purport YOUR attitudes to be typical. I know mine aren't. What brings balance to a discussion is the presentation of perceptions. Two people can sit in the same room observing the same event and, afterward, discuss their recollection as though they were in different places. In this case, you're presuming to know what was the case in an era you could only have experienced semantically, while I experienced it "really" though through the perceptions of a child. I had the exposure to some of the same semantic influences as you, however, and I was able to integrate that with my recollections of those days to put things together in my mind, just as you do when thinking back to the '70's. That doesn't make ME right and YOU wrong, but it doesn't make YOU right and ME wrong either. You see, the larger discussion isn't about YOU or ME. One other point . . . I don't know how you can claim to know about what's on the mind of an "average" American. People who, ten years ago, were rabidly interested in computers, whether in work or in play, were not considered "average" in any sense. I'd say that the only way to get a reasonable "feel" for what an "average" person thinks must come from somewhere outside your circle of associates and mine. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 11:29 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach <snip> >> enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. > >Don't you mean YOUR attitudes, Richard? Get this through your thick >skull: YOU do NOT represent the mass thought process of humans. Time and >again you insist on applying your OWN personal values and opinions upon >the rest of the world when you make an assertion, and fail to realize >there are 6 billion people out there with ideas differing from your own. > >> $300 was not an expenditure an "average" American would consider lightly in >> 1952. That was the year I came to this country. There was an election >> between Adlai E. Stevenson (Democrat) and Dwight D. Eisenhower (Republican). >> It was BEFORE the first test of a hydrogen bomb. > >Sure, but the point is that it could CONCEIVABLY have been afforded by >anyone who wished to save their money for 6 months so they could collect >the parts together to build one. Just because YOU would not have chosen >to build one does not mean everyone else in the world would have made that >same choice. Everyone on the planet does not share your values, contrary >to your belief and opinion. > >I know if I were alive back then, and I had the same excitement for >computers that I do today, and an opportunity to build my own computer >came up for 1/10th of my yearly salary, I sure as hell would have saved >the money to build one. > >1/10th of the average American's yearly salary is about $3,000 these days >(thereabouts) and I know plenty of people who would save up that amount to >buy a righteous computer with all the trimmings in our time. So $300 out >of a $3,600 yearly salary (or whatever) back then is not only possible but >very do-able. > >> People weren't crazy then as they are now . . . and all the loose nuts >> hadn't yet learned to run to California. > >Whatever. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >

26 years, 1 month

Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC")

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

At 06:41 PM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, James Willing wrote: >> On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote: >> >> > > A PROPOSAL: (for VCF III) >> > >> > <more snipppp> >> > >> > Maybe we should fix that only systems within the 10 year rule can be classified. >> >> Dang! I knew I was forgetting something! >> >> 6) In order to be eligible, the unit must have entered production (or >> in the case of a construction article based unit, been published) prior to >> the introduction of the IBM "PC". (198?... dang, brain fade!) > >1981. August to be exact.... > >Anyway, hold your pants on! The rules for the exhibit are coming soon! Ok... I'll defer to "he that runs the thing"... B^} So, do you have a mark-sense reader? Or should I still plan to bring mine? (never quite ready to give up!) B^} -jim --- jimw(a)computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

26 years, 1 month

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were t

by edick＠idcomm.com

What I do remember, and quite clearly, is that the job I held in summer of '61 there was a sign right next to the washroom saying that the federal minimum wage, of wich there was none in 1952, was 65 cents per hour. In the early '50's people were saving up their bucks for a TV set, because not everybody had one yet. That was much different four or five years later, but for the first couple of years of the Eisenhower administration, things were rather poor, due to the compounded post-war recession. We came to the US in February of '52, and my father had a job engraving plates for bank notes, at which he was considered VERY well paid at $1.25 per hour. He left that job, to everyone's surprise to take a job in Oklahoma City for $1.35 an hour. I don't know what my mother earned as a secretary. Since people were just catching on to TV, if there was a station within range, I doubt anyone really wanted a computer. As I wrote yesterday, when someone said computer, I thought they were talking about my grandfather who held that title at one of the big New York banks. I was just a kid, but still, if computers had caught on the way they did some five to eight years later, people would have known about it and the things might actually have interested someone. Without the games, I doubt more than a hundred were built for personal use or amazement. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Walker <lwalker(a)mail.interlog.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 8:48 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were t On 22 Apr 99 at 20:02, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I suspect that few of the readers of this list remember the early '50's as I > do. I wasn't trying to compare or contrast the prices of the antique > computers which were under discussion, but rather point out that few people > would put out a month's pay (gross) for a personal computer, even today. In > the early '50's there were more people, including some professionals, with > less than $300 after taxes (and they were MUCH lower then) than there were > people earning more. There wasn't yet a minimum wage of $1.00 per hour, > and, in fact, when I had a minimum wage job in '60, I earned <$5.00 per > 8-hour day. Naturally a $300 computer wasn't on my list of things to buy. > > Dick > I think you're understating wages a bit in the early 50s . I remember getting $125 for a 55 hr week working as a construction laborer on a summer job in 52, and getting $1.75 an hour as a derrickman in the admittedly highpaying oil-patch in 53. On the other hand I worked as a jr. IBM operator in 55 starting at $35 a week. Office jobs unless you were in management were notoriously underpaid. I was paying $18 a week for rent. At this time the Can $ was equivalent or more than the US$ . I took out a loan from the credit union in order to buy a $125 trumpet. So otherwise your reference to the high price of "hobby " computers is valid. Of course the larger computers (data processors) could only be leased, not bought from companies like IBM and Univac, so even the concept of "owning" a computer would be somewhat ludicrous unless you were an academic with a liberal budget. ciao larry lwalker(a)interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c(a)xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C

26 years, 1 month

PDP11 Info Posted

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

I just scanned the PDP11/23 and 11/34 pocket guides and posted them in GIF format at ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/pdp1134 and ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/pdp1124 In ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/ you will also find the TD systems Viking user and technical manuals that I OCR'd but the OCR did not do a good job of keeping the tables lined up. There are a few GIF's of those important pages. There is a UDT and a QDT jpg of the boards also. These boards have been very commonly rebadged with other companies names on them. They are Qbuss and Unibuss SCSI disk / tape controllers. Mixed in are UC0* files (GIF's) that are the important pages from the Emulex UC07/08 Qbus SCSI manual to set them up also. Zane hopefully will sort them into their own directories and post the new directory info. Dan

26 years, 1 month

More new toys

by karlm＠blitzen.canberra.edu.au

Latest finds: Picked up a nice Motorola MVME chassis + cards (68000), the system works are runs OS-9, still playing with it :-) Anyone got any info on this system? Also 2x Sun3/50's and monitors. Not bad for mornings drive :-) Cheers Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Karl Maftoum Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia Email: k.maftoum(a)student.canberra.edu.au

26 years, 1 month

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

You know, there must have been another company using the Digital name that put on those pitches my colleagues and I had to attend, which was not publicly traded, because that was part of the same spiel, i.e. "that's why we're not public . . ." I'm sure I didn't dream that, because my boss was usually present and I didn't really like what I was hearing. Is this possible? I don't believe a public corporation can have non-public subsidiaries. Can it? Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 7:07 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s > >> > They (DEC) wouldn't sell >> > directly to the government because that required they let government >> > auditors look at their books. There was too much risk that the word would >> > leak out that their profit margins on their mini's were pretty generous. >> > That would have led to competition, which they really never enjoyed. >> > >> > >> > Dick >> >> >> This is unadulterated #@$&*() bull. >> And revisionist history with an agenda sucks. >> >> I take serious offence to this. DEC sold directly to the government. >> They (the gov't) was their second largest customer when I was there >> (behind the good old AT&T Ma Bell folks). I was a dedicated Field >> service type at Fort Monmouth. I also did time as a government >> contractor on projects. >> >> What are you basing this opinion on. >> >> Bill > >First DEC was a public corperation... if you know anthing that counters >your claim. > >Now so happens my other half was a manager of the corperate and government >billing unit. I KNOW what the discloseures were! If anything IBM had a >presence for a long time so the govenment was for the most part locked in. > >Offensive is the least I can say about that statement. > >Allison >(formerly Senior Engineer, CSSE Printing Systems (DEC MLO, PKO, LKG, DSG, >OGO) >

26 years, 1 month

Vintage Computer Festival Announcement!

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Pack your bags! The third annual Vintage Computer Festival has been set for October 2nd and 3rd at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, California. More information to come shortly. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99]

26 years, 1 month

Fw: Old HP 9000/300 for free - you want it?

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Thought someone here might be interested... As usual, please contact the original poster... Jay West -----Original Message----- From: William Blair Wagner <blairw(a)triadnewton.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp.hardware,comp.sys.hp.hpux,comp.sys.hp.misc To: hpux-admin mailing-list <hpux-admin(a)dutchworks.nl> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 6:07 PM Subject: Old HP 9000/300 for free - you want it? >Hi Gang, > >Listen, this is not a joke. I have a very old (1985) HP 9000/300 model 350 >workstation. Its a relick! Its likely useless for anyone other than ant antique >collector, but I thought I'd see if anyone wanted it or parts of it before I >throw it all in the trash. It has the following parts / features: > >Workstation Cabinet: HP 9000/300 model 330 (1985) >1) Mainboard has BNC Ethernet connection, 9-pin rs232 connection, RCA sound mono >connection, HP-HIL connection, and an HP-IB connection >2) HP98547A HiRes Color Bitmapped video board with 64 colors ,6 planes of >display memory, and the 3 R-G-B connectors >3) HP98628A Datacomm board (I think for an external modem or something) > >External Cabinet: HP 9153B >1) 20MB hard disc drive >2) 3.5" removable diskette >3) HP-IB interface > >Monitor: >HP 98785A 17" (made by Sony in 1989) R-G-B monitor (very nice!) > >Keyboard and Mouse included too. > >It has HP Basic loaded (that's the OS), not HP-UX. > >I'll give this to anyone who wants to come get it, or pay for shipping. Like I >said, I dont expect anyone to want this, but you never know! > >Please email me if your interested, I wont be checking the news groups for >replies. > > >-- >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >: William Blair Wagner :"Education is not always knowing the answer, : >: CCI/Triad Company : ..but rather knowing where to look for it!" : >: blairw(a)triadnewton.com : >: UltimatePlus Software Engineer : >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

26 years, 1 month

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

I'm sure everyone recongnizes that fact. What's important is getting past that point, i.e. settling what the definition is going to be. In the case of the early video cards, for the S-100, they weren't generally used as the console interface. In fact I don't know of a graphics card that was, though on toward '82-83 there were a few with some of the more "capable" graphics support chips like the NEC 7220 or that "BIG" Hitachi graphics chip, though I never saw one except at a trade show. Some of these were pretty demanding applications which quickly pointed up the weakness in using 8-bit computers for multi-plane graphics. They also pointed up the fact that decent high resolution color monitors cost about as much as a house . . . well, not quite, but you get the idea. If you bought one, you'd better keep the box, because you'd need a place to live when your wife found out . . . In any case, the dual-console (text/graphics) model was the default. The personal computer definition, IMHO, doesn't require that there be a dedicated video circuit, but does require one be tolerant of it, at least at the low end, because a lot of fairly potent "video-toy" types were pretty weak-kneed computers, and thus were touted as being for home use. You might say these were definitely personal, but you might also call their characterization as computers into question. I think it's a little shallow to quibble over whether the video was built in or removable when the system wouldn't really do much without some sort of video interface to effect the console function. As I recall, there was a board by VIDEX (?) for the Apple-][ which allowed you to present an 80x24 console, but didn't support graphics. The normal Apple graphics could be shown, though, by means of a separate monitor attached to the normal video output. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:37 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s >> The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 >> machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part of >> the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I >> think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- >> that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from >> a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry >> can't be easily changed or removed. > >You do realise that this definition implies that the IBM PC is not a >'personal computer' :-). On all the 'classic' IBM PC-family machines, and >on a lot of clones, the video system was an _optional_ plug-in card. I >think there's even a way to configure machines without a video card if >you're clever... > >-tony >

26 years, 1 month

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

That's actually quite true. The technology didn't yet exist in 1950-55 for the hobbyist to expand on the initial concept and extend it into something potentially useful or even marginally so. It probably wasn't even terribly educational. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 3:08 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s > >> Just a couple of stray thoughts. While a person could possibly have >> purchased a $300 computer in the 50's, why would they? What could they >> have done with it? The answer is almost nothing. The only people who >> might have been interested would have been ham radio or electronics >> hobbysists, and they would very likely have built there own. I don't >> even believe there was a viable used market for low cost computers in >> the 50's, they would all have been enormous mainframes. > >Where is the difference to the 70s and 80s ? > > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. >H.Achternbusch

26 years, 1 month

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

No, what's relevant isn't the technology and its state of maturity, but the comparison of the relative value of the numbers. Today, it's just assumed that if you buy an item for $300 and it subsequently breaks, you shrug your shoulders and throw it away. Back in the '50's, not many people were silly enough to do that. My comment about DEC is based on my observation that the only thing one could count on from DEC was that it would cost a lot. You seldom got technology less than an generation old, and they didn't provide systems integration services gratis as did nearly every other manufacturer, even Big Blue. As a consequence, these services were provided by the bloated aerospace and defense contracting industry. They (DEC) wouldn't sell directly to the government because that required they let government auditors look at their books. There was too much risk that the word would leak out that their profit margins on their mini's were pretty generous. That would have led to competition, which they really never enjoyed. There's nothing wrong with their products, but they were not tuned for nor were they suited for the personal computer market . . . not even the ones they claimed were. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 7:17 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> One aspect of this matter I'm already seeing ignored is the COST. That >> so-called FIRST personal computer which cost $300 in the early '50's, for >> example, cost quite a lot of money. In the '50's, it was unusual for anyone >> to earn $100 a week. A mid-priced Chevrolet cost less than $2000 and $10 a >> week was plenty for a week's groceries for a family of 4. > >That cost was estimated. The computer was only sold as a plan. The buyer >had to find the pieces to make it go and assemble it themselves. So its >conceivable this machine could have been built for free, providing one >could find all the pieces salvaged from old equipment. > >Regardless, it was still a computer that one could very easily have owned >in the 50s, which is more than you can say about a Univac or IBM 70x >series machine. > >> Not even DEC's so-called personal computers were competitive enough to >> interest an industry professional. The DEC mini's weren't even a good buy >> as they became obsolete. I doubt DEC equipment was EVER used where there >> wasn't a third party present who profited from its use. That doesn't mean >> they weren't appropriate and suitable for a wide range of uses, but it >> certainly doesn't characterize a personal computer. > >Huh? > >> Just to put things into perspective, a week's groceries, these days, for a >> family of four, cost about $150, a decent mid-priced car costs $15000, and a >> farily well equipped and appropriately designated personal computer with a >> 400MHz pentium, 8GB HDD, 64MB of RAM, OS installed, all the multimedia >> features, plus a current-generation modem (V.90) costs $400 less the monitor >> with monitors costing $139 for a 15" and $300 for a 20" type. These prices >> are from Best-Buy's ad in last Sunday's paper. You can probably do better >> if you shop. > >These prices are also based on technology that has had 50 years to mature, >and therefore the comparison is entirely invalid. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >

26 years, 1 month

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 <machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part o <the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I <think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- <that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different fro Except that the SOL was sold with a VDM1 as part of the system unless you bought it bare deliberatly (like you could a PC). As to definition... the longest standing one most would agree on is PC was at one time not a brand or machine but, PERSONALLY OWNED and not owned by a business (or part of one). To that end I really dont care if it had video or not. The idea of personal ownership of a PC was something rooted in the late 50s or eraly 60s and gave rise to the LINC and otehr machines that could be built for believable prices(or at high cost of labor). it wasn't until IBM called their specific product "The Personal Computer" that things changed some. However Apple, TANDY, Northstar* and company had all done their bit to raise the rail and better define what the consumer wanted out of the box. The revolution was in it's evolution. Allison

26 years, 1 month

First "threshold" apps? (Was: "First PC" and other nonsense

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Without question, to me, my first PC was the IBM 1130. The whole system fi <in one room with plenty of space for storage, card reader, and line printe <and all associated supplies. I could sit at the system console and do <stuff, or just punch in my data on one of the keypunches, slip a program but was it remotely possible to either make your own or even purchase one? This is a loaded comment due to the way IBM marketed their machines. I may add that without the peripherals (all expensive in their own right) the machine was not as useable as some. Personal... not quite. It did add weight the idea that computers didn't need buildings built around them. It would be an afector. Allison

26 years, 1 month

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<That's actually quite true. The technology didn't yet exist in 1950-55 fo <the hobbyist to expand on the initial concept and extend it into something <potentially useful or even marginally so. It probably wasn't even terribl <educational. < <Dick Therein lies a critical point. At some point the _idea_ of having your own computer emerged as became as least acheievable. I'd say the catalyst was transistors and early ICs were the impactors in that transistion. Allison

26 years, 1 month

Wang Stuff is avail.

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Right. This morning I got an e-mail release from the company giving me title free and clear to the Wang VS 7110 system and urging me to get it the hell out of there, pronto. SO: is there any interest in this system, as previously described (yesterday) on the List? I will be happy to e-mail the details to you if you wish. I am probably not capable, emotionally, of actually scrapping the damn thing, as my motive in rescuing it is preservation... anybody out there want the system? There is no room whatsoever at my place to store it, save for outside in the elements, and it would deteriorate rather quickly, even if it is coming up on summer.. I can help with delivery within a reasonable radius of Southern California.... Anybody....? Cheerz John

26 years, 1 month

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

I suspect that few of the readers of this list remember the early '50's as I do. I wasn't trying to compare or contrast the prices of the antique computers which were under discussion, but rather point out that few people would put out a month's pay (gross) for a personal computer, even today. In the early '50's there were more people, including some professionals, with less than $300 after taxes (and they were MUCH lower then) than there were people earning more. There wasn't yet a minimum wage of $1.00 per hour, and, in fact, when I had a minimum wage job in '60, I earned <$5.00 per 8-hour day. Naturally a $300 computer wasn't on my list of things to buy. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 7:20 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >>> Just to put things into perspective, a week's groceries, these days, for a >>> family of four, cost about $150, a decent mid-priced car costs $15000, and a >>> farily well equipped and appropriately designated personal computer with a >>> 400MHz pentium, 8GB HDD, 64MB of RAM, OS installed, all the multimedia >>> features, plus a current-generation modem (V.90) costs $400 less the monitor >>> with monitors costing $139 for a 15" and $300 for a 20" type. These prices >>> are from Best-Buy's ad in last Sunday's paper. You can probably do better >>> if you shop. > >>These prices are also based on technology that has had 50 years to mature, >>and therefore the comparison is entirely invalid. > >"If the automobile had followed the same price-performance changes as >the computer industry in the past 50 years, a Rolls Royce would today cost >$4.95, get two million miles to the gallon, go 50000 MPH, and explode >once a day, killing everyone inside." -- Robert X. Cringley > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 1 month

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by gregorym＠cadvision.com

At 10:19 PM 4/22/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach >> of the "average" American. >Don't you mean YOUR attitudes, Richard? Get this through your thick >skull: YOU do NOT represent the mass thought process of humans. >> $300 was not an expenditure an "average" American would consider lightly in >> 1952. > >Sure, but the point is that it could CONCEIVABLY have been afforded by >anyone who wished to save their money for 6 months so they could collect >the parts together to build one. >I know if I were alive back then, and I had the same excitement for >computers that I do today, and an opportunity to build my own computer >came up for 1/10th of my yearly salary, I sure as hell would have saved >the money to build one. > >Whatever. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Both Sellam and Richard have valid points, but neither of them are right, because they're arguing apples and oranges. Richard is arguing consumer acceptance as a criterion - what average Americans _did_ do - and the fact is that very few average Americans in the 50s spent $300 on personal computers. Sellam is arguing affordability and availability as a criterion - what an average American _could_ have done - and Doug's site shows that it was possible to buy a PC for an affordable price in the 50s. Reduce this argument to its extremes: in the extension of Richard's view, _no_ PC can be considered a personal computer until every average American buys one, which hasn't happened yet and probably never will; in the extension of Sellam's view, if I can show that Leonardo da Vinci scrawled down plans for a recognizable computer that cost less than 3 month's pay in commonly available materials in 1500, even if one was never built, that will be the first personal computer, because someone could have bought or built one. This argument can never be resolved, because to do so, you have to agree on whether actual purchasing (as opposed to the possibility of purchasing) is required, and if so, what degree of consumer acceptance is enough (do you have to sell 1 machine? 50? 5000? 250,000?). I don't think anyone can agree on this. And let's keep the personal gibes to a minimum, please (i.e. "Get it through your thick skull"). My 2 cents, Mark.

26 years, 1 month

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