<What extra do you (as a software hacker) get from this chip that you
<wouldn't get from a software emulator of the Eniac running on (say) a PC?
A grade in an EE course where there is a required project to create a
system on a chip. In software 311 you do the emulator for the PC.
;)
Allison
In a message dated 5/29/99 6:28:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com writes:
> Yes, but shipping to the UK would be too expensive :-)
Effective May 30th, 1999 the United States Postal Service changed it's
"Global Priority Flat Rate Envelope" service to $9 US for up to 4 pounds if
it will fit in a USPS 10"X12" Envelope.
This size package would take a couple of S100 cards wrapped in anti-stat &
bubble wrap.
This is a much cheaper international rate that the USPS is starting to
promote. Their web site is www,usps.com. The rate calculators work best. The
new international rate sheet is in Adobe pdf format and loads slowly (19
pages). The calculators are html but are not updated yet.
A 6"X8" envelope is $5, and, I think, up to 4 pounds. I have used the small
envelope to ship software to Hong Kong.
Hello, all:
Does anyone remember this Hayes novelty? I saw a pic in an old magazine
and thought what a neat idea -- a serial programmable clock in the same case
as a Hayes Modem.
If anyone comes across one of these, I'd be interested in it. Also, if
anyone has a manual for this, let me know. In the absence of an actual
clock, maybe I can hack one together with Stamp.
[ Rich Cini/WUGNET
[ ClubWin!/CW7
[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[ Collector of "classic" computers
[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
<---------------------------- reply separator
The place where you get the results of an ENIAC is, of course, in the
programming of this single-chip ENIAC emulator. Now, I too, would
like to have the real thing (how many were made?) but, I do not
expect my want to be fulfilled. Yet, via this chip, I may still afford
myself
the pleasure of programming an ENIAC. For the hardware tinkering
people on this list, I can understand their dissatisfaction. For those
of us who want to experience the software/user side of things, this
chip is not so much of a disappointment.
William R. Buckley
From: Christian Fandt <cfandt(a)netsync.net>
>Amen, Max. The only thing one would probably get out of that 'radio' would
>be a work-alike thing. Exactly the same for that ENIAC-on-a-chip.
>Work-alike, probably, but no where near the same as having either the real
>thing or a functional replica with tubes/relays/other fun parts.
>
>Regards, Chris, an old radio collector (or rather, collector of old radios
:)
Hi all,
Today I bought a SC/MP wirewrapped board. Does anyone know of a site with a
data sheet? My search came up with what is known as "SC/MP II", including a
description of a "MK14" project in Practical Electronics mag. In
particular, the chip on my board requires an unknown neg. voltage on pin
40, instead of +5 Volts on the later NMOS versions. The actual part No. is:
ISP-8A/500D
Thanks,
-Dave
<A last thought on this for you legal guys out there! Would'n it be
<sensible to design some kind of 'declaration of trust' regarding private
<content of equipment. So that the receivers can be held responsable for
No, you that declare you are repsonsable where you formally were not.
You then place yourself in a position of trust for the data. If your disk
cleaning efforts were not adaquate and someone read them and misused the
findings YOU ARE IN TROUBLE and the original owner can sue you for breech
of contract. Liability is then directed to you, and the original owner
then has limited libility, both the donator and thir clients can sue you
for cause. Don't go there unless you want to make it a business.
<any irrisponsable disclosure of private data. And also that the donator
<has signifies that he has (had) knowledge about the informational
<content of his donation. In serious cases a Judge may decide who has
<acted liable. But most of ours would live by such a contact and it may
<endorse reliable image about the restoration and preservation of classic
<hardware & software.
If it's important, maybe. Consider that no responseable source of
significant equipment would leave mission critical data or files behind
unless the equipment were inoperable. In that case you may wish to operate
as an agent to that donator... be careful as you are taking the role of
a contract engineer to them and if you fail to recover the data and loose
it or fail to remove it totally you may be in trouble. Again desireable
equipment may warrent.
I did some checking and here is my lawyer friends call:
You get a system with stuff on the disk.
They (donator) failed to perform due dilligence and due care in maintaining
confidence. IF and unless there is a provable agreement that data is fair
game. The however of this is while they may loose in a suit, everyone
would in the process so long as there is not malicious intent on the part
of the person that recieved the equipment. They (donator) would injure
themselves, their clients and it would cost to defend. In short you can
be sued, they would likely loose, it's costly to win on both sides and the
would not help anyone and would hut everyone.
Best bet is if you find crap on the disk and have not been asked or told,
delete it and forget it.
Allison
<Hi all,
<Today I bought a SC/MP wirewrapped board. Does anyone know of a site with
<data sheet? My search came up with what is known as "SC/MP II", including
<description of a "MK14" project in Practical Electronics mag. In
<particular, the chip on my board requires an unknown neg. voltage on pin
<40, instead of +5 Volts on the later NMOS versions. The actual part No. is
<ISP-8A/500D
That is the early Pmos part (SC/MP and not the II) and the voltage there
is -7v (Vgg). Never saw that particular schematic (Practical Elect.) there
was one in an early kiloboaud, byte or interface age you could look at for
more info.
I have a working example of the inexpensive board national sold with that
chip, 256bytes of ram and a monitor.
I'd doubt there is a site with a data sheet unless someone got permission
form National Semi to scan one.
Allison
<It uses about 175,000 transistors! Wow, what an increase, just think of a
<computer with 175,000 triodes, and compare that to an ENIAC (much less,
<the power required). Or some years later, one with 175,000 discrete
<transistors. Now that I remember, this was a thread some months ago... top
<speed, etc.
<-Dave
Your babbeling. The original use some 15000 tubes of single and dual types.
The interconnecting logic used many diodes. What is missed is the in many
of the tube (early transistor too) machines pulse transformers, diodes and
capacitors were used to interconnect logic elements. To perform the same
logical function of a tube FF on a CMOS FPGA/FPLA you will not less than
6-10 transistors due mostly to differeing interconnect schemes and tube
logic have load resistors where cmos having a complmentary transistor. The
difference showing in the power used (15KW VS ~1-2W).
The key is they are implementing archetecture not direct circutry.
Allison
<> There are various systems like this. The most common (in my limited
<> experience) being a JTAG boundary scan. Basically, some LSI devices have
<
<The system Tera uses is quite similar, except that it extends to the intera
<circuitry of the chip rather than just the boundary (pins) of the chip.
Look again. They are likely the same thing. Most boundary scan approaches
allow not the pin level output but a snapshot of the core logic to be
brought out as a serial bit stream on just a few pins. It is an
approximation of the PDP-8 style front pannel where most of the internal
working can be seen in lights and allow diagnosing say a stuck bit in the
ACC or core.
Allison
<>uPD414 is the equivalent of a 4027 DRAM (4096 x 1bits). What's a 2414?
<> Did you mean 2114, or 2147?
I was wrking for NEC when that part was current. I have an old catalog and
the MK4027 was the one I was trying to remember.
Allison
well . . . we all know what those are. This makes a great deal more sense!
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Maslin <donm(a)cts.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, May 29, 1999 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: Vintage S-100 cards
>On Sun, 30 May 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote:
>
>> On May 29, 16:28, Don Maslin wrote:
>> > Subject: Vintage S-100 cards
>
>________O/_______
> O\
>
>> uPD414 is the equivalent of a 4027 DRAM (4096 x 1bits). What's a 2414?
>> Did you mean 2114, or 2147?
>
>Bit of a slip twixt (thought) cup and (finger) tip. I think 2114 was the
>reference I intended.
>
> - don
>
>
Hi,
Today I bought what I thought were three 4MB 72-pin SIMMs. On closer
examination, they have *80* pins, and were made by Digital in 1991.
It says 5019144-01 A1P2 on the boards.
Some questions:
- what system would these have been used in?
- how much might they be worth?
- does anyone need any 4MB 80-pin SIMMs?
-- Mark
I am a radio collector. I know what you're saying. I have one of these
"Modern" radios - it's a Crosley Metro. While it would fool a non -
collector, since it looks like the original, a collector would know that the
tape deck doesn't belong there :)
What should be done, is that a "knobs and switches (and whatever else is
needed)" interface that hooks to the "modern" interface, with the chip in it
(or just put the chip in the other interface). While not being the
original, it'll still give the feel of the original. It'll use a LOT less
power, too :)
///--->>>
-Jason Willgruber
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#: 1730318
<http://members.tripod.com/general_1>
-----Original Message-----
From: Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, May 29, 1999 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: ENIAC-on-a-Chip
>
>Maybe you don't see what I'm saying (and I don't know any reason for
>insults, either). Let's say you're a radio collector. You want a certain
>old radio, which you would never be able to own. Somebody gives you a
>modern radio with the same circuit layout but the old components have been
>replaced by modern ones. Such a radio could fit on a circuit board 2"
>sq. if done with surface mount. It works the same way. Would you take this
>radio, and say 'hell, if I want, I can add the old-fashioned knobs later'?
>I doubt it. Now, granted, this is the only kind of ENIAC anyone will ever
>be able to own, but I'm dubious about how similar the experience would be
>to running a real ENIAC.
>
> --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
> http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is
Power
>
>
Look what those wacky college students are up to now:
http://www.ee.upenn.edu/~jan/eniacproj.html
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 04/03/99]
Sellam:
Comments like this are a bit condecending, lacking a kind
disposition to others. Your point is important but, you could
give it without so much venom.
William R. Buckley
If you're so indignant you can always build a "knobs and
>switches" interface to settle your neurosis.
>
>Sellam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
On May 29, 16:28, Don Maslin wrote:
> Subject: Vintage S-100 cards
>
> I just acquired a number of vintage (circa 1977) S-100 cards. They are
> listed below:
>
> 3) Processor Technology 16k(?) RAM cards - one fully populated with
> NEC uPD414C chips, which I take to be a 2414 clone. The other
> two seem to have all of the glue chips, but no RAM. They are
> identified in silkscreen as ASSY NO.203000 and in etch as 16KRA.
uPD414 is the equivalent of a 4027 DRAM (4096 x 1bits). What's a 2414?
Did you mean 2114, or 2147?
> Anybody care? Anyone interested? Any offers?
Yes, but shipping to the UK would be too expensive :-)
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
At 10:37 PM 5/28/99 -0700, Sam wrote:
>
>Look what those wacky college students are up to now:
>
>http://www.ee.upenn.edu/~jan/eniacproj.html
>
It uses about 175,000 transistors! Wow, what an increase, just think of a
computer with 175,000 triodes, and compare that to an ENIAC (much less,
the power required). Or some years later, one with 175,000 discrete
transistors. Now that I remember, this was a thread some months ago... top
speed, etc.
-Dave
I have to admit, the 2414 is a strange number to me also. I looked up the
NEC DRAMs though, and the uPD414C would have been equivalent to a MOSTEK
MK4027. Remember, MOSTEK was the industry leader in DRAMs in the mid-'70's.
This number predates my NEC data, but uPD416C would have been the 16K
version.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, May 29, 1999 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: Vintage S-100 cards
>On May 29, 16:28, Don Maslin wrote:
>> Subject: Vintage S-100 cards
>>
>> I just acquired a number of vintage (circa 1977) S-100 cards. They are
>> listed below:
>>
>> 3) Processor Technology 16k(?) RAM cards - one fully populated with
>> NEC uPD414C chips, which I take to be a 2414 clone. The other
>> two seem to have all of the glue chips, but no RAM. They are
>> identified in silkscreen as ASSY NO.203000 and in etch as 16KRA.
>
>uPD414 is the equivalent of a 4027 DRAM (4096 x 1bits). What's a 2414?
> Did you mean 2114, or 2147?
>
>> Anybody care? Anyone interested? Any offers?
>
>Yes, but shipping to the UK would be too expensive :-)
>
>--
>
>Pete Peter Turnbull
> Dept. of Computer Science
> University of York
A 2100S in good condition is a nice find. Is it just me or did the 2100/21MX
line of HP gear suddenly get popular with collectors in the past 6 months or
so? <grin>
You wrote...
>Some of these are pretty obvious about their functions,
>but does anybody have any idea what the "DUP REG" functions
>are?
There were two boards in the 2100/21MX line called DUP REG. They were the
8-bit duplex register PCA and the 16-bit duplex register PCA. They are
general purpose I/O interfaces. I know for sure that the 8-bit board was
used almost exclusively for paper tape readers or paper tape punches. I've
never seen the 16-bit board in use, so I'm not sure what it was used for.
>I'm speculating that the black section is the memory subsystem
>for the machine, and that the ID & DC boards have something
>to do with memory addressing, decoding, etc.
As I recall, you are correct in your speculation.
>That's all the info. I have right now. Doesn't look to
>me like there are any terminal I/O type interfaces in
>the box. I haven't had the nerve yet to power it up
>to see if it does anything. If any of ya'll have any info.
>about this machine, I'd appreciate a shout.
The 2100S gave you a choice of several different terminal interfaces. Most
common for general use was the 12531A, B, C, or D. Most common for
scientific use was the (IIRC) 12766 BACI. Also, the power supply in the
2100A/S was er.... not the best example of HP's usual over-engineering.
Check those voltages with dummy loads before you sacrifice some cards :)
I've got a fair amount of docs on the 2100A/S, but check out Jeff Moffat's
website, he has some decent manuals online.
Jay West
I just acquired a number of vintage (circa 1977) S-100 cards. They are
listed below:
3) Processor Technology 16k(?) RAM cards - one fully populated with
NEC uPD414C chips, which I take to be a 2414 clone. The other
two seem to have all of the glue chips, but no RAM. They are
identified in silkscreen as ASSY NO.203000 and in etch as 16KRA.
1) Polymorphic Systems 8k RAM card. It is fully populated with
2102 chips. It is a product of Interactive Products Corp.
1) Processor Technology Helios II Controller - presumably for an 8"
drive (two 50-pin headers). No LSI.
1) Processor Technology Formatter. Based on its 50-pin header and
the header's location, I infer that this card is part of a two
card set that is the Helios II listed above. Again, no LSI.
1) Percom Cassette/Terminal I/O card. Carries one each male and
female 10-pin connector. Also has an SMC COM2502 chip (40-pin).
There is a ~2x4" breadboard area on one end of the card.
Obviously, I have no way to know if these cards are functional.
However, they are clean and not beaten up.
Anybody care? Anyone interested? Any offers?
- don
<As an aside, there have been laser printer interfaces where the host
<computer gets to control the laser engine control signals directly,
<rather than talking to a 'formatter board' that turns
<text/graphics/postscript/whatever into a suitable bitmap for printing.
DEC LN03P (~1988), a video print engine. Used a bit map in the host
computer wuth serializer, there is still a small embedded micro to cotrol
the basinc mechanics. FYI: due to construction and process laser printers
have to keep the paper moving or the image will be a mess.
The most extreme was the LPS40 (DEC, 12/27/1997) that literally had a
BA23 microvax in the base to do, networking, distributed queue management,
Postscript to raster engine interpretation. It was then handed to a 4board
set (bimaps and display list to raster bitmap engine) and set serially to
the printengine. The printengine had 1 8085 to manage the system, 3 8749s
to manage the mechanics and a 78pg11 to handle the large capacity paper
input. All that was to print complex postscript pages at 40ppm. That
seems obscene but starting one piece of A4 paper every 1.5 second plus
between three and four peices in transit is not a trivial task. Then there
was the Xerox 9700 (120ppm) monster (10+running feet of laser printer.).
<Of course this is a slightly higher level than talking to the mechanics
<directly, since you have a signal to tell the printer to start a page
<rather than having to control the motor and clutches directly. But still,
<the host computer has to monitor the Beam Detect signal and send suitably
<timed pixels to the laser control input.
Beam detect is a sync signal and it's all done in hardware. You get a sync
and start DMAing data to a serializer at a preset clock rate. Not much
different than driving a tube.
<I've seen (and probably still have somewhere) plastic daisywheels with a
<metal pin for the '.' , just to make the last a little longer when used
<like this.
My first plotter was a modified daisy mech, no daisy and a pin brazed to the
solinoid. Good to 200 dpi or so.
Allison
<How big is the LPS40? Can the microvax be programmed ( :) )? BTW, do you
Roughly 30Dx 48Wx 38H.
The microvax was running a downloaded image that was the exec and postacript
interpreter. Programmable, very, as postscript has it roots in forth and
contains all of the same or similar primitives plus the printing
libraries.
<know if the Xerox machines use any kind of common computer? At school, we
Several different ones depending.
Allison
Hello,
Just a quick question; I have an old NEC 3x external SCSI CDROM, and
i'm in need of a CDROM for my VAXstation 3100. Assuming I found the
right cables, could that CDROM be used?
-paul
--
paul(a)paul.dragontear.org [a paradigm of a paramount failure]
>How big is the LPS40? Can the microvax be programmed ( :) )? BTW, do you
>know if the Xerox machines use any kind of common computer?
Many Xerox laserprinters use a J11-based (same CPU chip as PDP-11/73, 83,
84, 93, and 94) controller. Some have it on a Q-bus backplane, but
most J11-based Xerox engines that I've seen have their own custom bus.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
