> 1. Observe symptoms
> 2. Make predictions
> 3. validate predictions
> 4. If predictions do not pan out add this
> to the observed symptoms and go back to step 2 or 1.
> 5. Repair bad part.
>
> I find that most don't understand the importance of steps
> 2 and 3. They try to go from 1 to 5 and usually it doesn't
> work. Step 2 does require that you understand what to
> expect from each kind of failure.
If you read usenet and/or the questions being asked on CLASSICCMP,
you'll find that most folks can't even execute step 1 correctly. If
I had a dime for every time someone complained about some problem they
were having and didn't even bother to quote the command line they were
trying or the exact error message that resulted, I'd be a millionaire.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Hi All
I decided, on good advice, to look at the static RAMs.
I found a couple of flaky boards. In both cases, it
looks like it was socket problems. I like sockets for
repair but in older machines, they are a major problem source.
I brought out my magic grease and coated the IC pins that were
offenders and now the machine seems quite reliable.
I found a couple more errors in my CBIOS but nothing
I can't work around until I get the source typed in and
use the ASM on the disk to generate code.
One bug stops the warm start from working correctly.
It is no biggy, it is related to how the controller deals
with track zero. When the head is unloaded, it doesn't
pass the track zero status. This means that if I'm at track
zero and then request to go to track zero, a quick check
of the controller status says I'm not there and I
step to track -1. Of course, there is no data there
so the thing fails to reload. I think the easy way
to deal with this is to issue a NOOP to the controller
to cause a head load and then read the status.
Another error that doesn't seem to cause trouble is that
the CONST routine is passing a 0F0H as a true flag instead
of a 0FFH. This is because I incorrectly wrote my return
flag routine. I don't like using conditional code to generate
flags. This is mostly the results of doing code for a
lot of real time applications that require deterministic
operation. The problem was I did it incorrectly. The code
I wrote was:
ANI 40H
ADI F0H
SBI F0H
What I should have written was:
ANI 40H
ADI 0FFH
SBB A
I still have one last problem that I don't understand. When
I send the back-space character to CPM I get erratic results.
Some times it sends back two back-space characters and other
times it sends one back-space and one space character. I don't
know if this is caused by a RAM problem or not. It is a funny
thing because every thing else seems work fine so I don't
think it is a problem with something like the RAM. At first
I used the ^R a lot to see the line. In any case,
I'm using my lap top as a terminal and can filter it until
I find time to look into it. Characters in the DUMP program
always come out right.
I'll have to look into the DRAM issue another day.
Dwight
<>A Z80 will give useful patterns executing continual 00 (NOP, so the
<>address bus cycles through all of memory) or FF (RST 38, so the stack
<>builds down to fill all off memory). Both should provide useful patterns
<>on DRAM control lines.
<>
<Of course, the old IMSAI didn't have a Z80, though I imagine the behavior o
<the 8080 is similarly predicable to some extent. However, this puts us in
<the realm of "coulda-woulda-shoulda" which is not where I like to work. A
<prom is easy, quick and earseable. If you don't have a few for diagnostic
<purposes, you get what you deserve.
same as z80 case, plus the front pannel can be very useful. However,
your point make two assumptions, a prom card or a card that assumably
works and takes a prom and the tools to program that specific prom.
When I was doing most of this stuff alot (early 1973-1983) those things
were often in short supply or non existant and a LA was stratosphere
priced.
<I guess I'm stupider than average, but I have never found what I get from
<logic probe to be particularly useful, nor have I gotten reliable/repeatabl
Different style and presentation. With a LP you attack section by section
and you have to visualize the big picture.
<results. The 'scope doesn't lie, however, and once you own one, it's a
<mistake even to pick up the logic probe, since it can tell you so little.
Wrong. I have all three and they have their place. Often the LP
is more than enough. It was enough to shoot the PDP-8f front pannel
with a bad input 7451 (lots of inputs!) and without a print!
<The logic analyzer is quite a complex beast and requires experience and
<patience to set it up and to utilize the information you get from it
<correctly. The reason I'm using mine is because I'm building a bus probe
<for the S-100 to be run from a PC. This will simulate a front panel on th
<screen and (hopefully) trivialize the task of making individual boards in
<the S-100 cardcage "so something" to aid in trouble-shooting. I'm not far
<along yet, but I thing taking a few pictures of the significant waveforms
<while fiddling with different CPU cards will get me back into the swing of
<things.
I found an easier way. Netronics 8085 system. 8085 with prom, ram, IO
local to itself and a s100 extension off that. Bought it in '78 before the
lightining hit fried the altair and it was vey useful as even dead cards
could be driven. Some of the S100 SBC style CPUs (Computime SB880 come to
mind as I have one) is also useful as it has z80, serial, 1kram, eprom
all on the card and great for driving the deadest of s100 busses.
<Some magazine published a multiplexer for the oscilloscope which enabled a
<externally triggered 'scope to display 8 multiplexed channels in either
<alternating or chopped mode. That was about 20 years ago, but little
<gadgets like that cost only a few bucks to build and will save lots of tim
<on things with several interacting signals. This one used 4000-series CMO
<stuff to form a bias voltage be summed with the logic signal in order to
Built one. Too slow to be useful for logic of even 8080 speeds. the
4066s were barely good to 10mhz as the board was laid out.
Allison
please see embedded comments below.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: Re[4]: More Bringing up a CPM
>> ><Even if you don't intend to use PROMs in your final device, I'd
certainly
>> ><recommend you build a few PROMS which make the processor do rudimentary
>> ><things and perhaps which make the DMAC do the same things. You then
have
>> ><simple tools with which to troubleshoot your memory interfaces.
>> >
>> >that can be helpful. I just use the CPU executing junk FF/00 or
whatever
>> >else the bus lets it see,
>>
>>
>> This might work but is rarely predictable.
>
>IMHO it's good design practice to put pull up/down resistors on a bus
>that might be floating (like most data buses). In which case the
>'floating' bus is predictable.
>
Just because it's good practice doesn't mean that it's happened.
>
>A Z80 will give useful patterns executing continual 00 (NOP, so the
>address bus cycles through all of memory) or FF (RST 38, so the stack
>builds down to fill all off memory). Both should provide useful patterns
>on DRAM control lines.
>
Of course, the old IMSAI didn't have a Z80, though I imagine the behavior of
the 8080 is similarly predicable to some extent. However, this puts us in
the realm of "coulda-woulda-shoulda" which is not where I like to work. A
prom is easy, quick and earseable. If you don't have a few for diagnostic
purposes, you get what you deserve.
>
>>
>> ><After reading about the problems you're having, I think I'll fetch the
1240
>> ><LA out onto the patio as well.
>> >
>> >I troubleshoot 90% of my s100 problems with a good logic probe and
>> >a DVM. The rare case I've dragged out the scope it was handy but
usually
>> >because I missed something stupid. The recent NS* bring up required the
>> >logic probe, its where I spotted a missing Mwrite/ (jumper smeared off
the
>> >cpu board).
>>
I guess I'm stupider than average, but I have never found what I get from a
logic probe to be particularly useful, nor have I gotten reliable/repeatable
results. The 'scope doesn't lie, however, and once you own one, it's a
mistake even to pick up the logic probe, since it can tell you so little.
The logic analyzer is quite a complex beast and requires experience and
patience to set it up and to utilize the information you get from it
correctly. The reason I'm using mine is because I'm building a bus probe
for the S-100 to be run from a PC. This will simulate a front panel on the
screen and (hopefully) trivialize the task of making individual boards in
the S-100 cardcage "so something" to aid in trouble-shooting. I'm not far
along yet, but I thing taking a few pictures of the significant waveforms
while fiddling with different CPU cards will get me back into the swing of
things.
>>
>> The logic analyzer is handy for gathering information about what a given
>
>Like Allison I used to work almost entirely with a logic probe and a VOM
>(and a brain, which is the most important 'instrument' of all :-)). I had
>a good logic analyser, which saved me a lot of time on occasions, but it
>wasn't that convenient to use.
>
>Then I got a small (small enough to sit on top of any part of a machine),
>simple (but expensive!) logic analyser. It has almost totally replaced my
>logic probe. The ability to compare the timing of a couple of signals
>(this thing has 3 channels, which is enough for most work) is _very
>useful_. For a DRAM problem, I'd certainly look at RAS and CAS, and maybe
>'board select' or 'refresh' or 'address mux control'.
Some magazine published a multiplexer for the oscilloscope which enabled an
externally triggered 'scope to display 8 multiplexed channels in either
alternating or chopped mode. That was about 20 years ago, but little
gadgets like that cost only a few bucks to build and will save lots of time
on things with several interacting signals. This one used 4000-series CMOS
stuff to form a bias voltage be summed with the logic signal in order to
present the signal with a sufficient offset to make each successive trace
appear with enough separation to be useful on the small CRT found on most
'SCOPEs. I have trouble with the notion of using that mode for displaying
what's happening, since you can fool yourself with the display of apparently
concurrent events when they are really not at all concurrent.
About 15 years ago, I made up a sampling circuit which drives a 'scope with
eight channels on each probe and triggers the 'scope on a third. I was
never totally happy with the triggering capability, but if I kept the
trigger simple, it would do what I wanted quite respectably. I used a DAC
to generate the voltage offset, hence I could go quite a bit faster than the
CMOS circuit I described above, though it was never necessary. Such a tool
is suitable for a job like this, and would make the LA unnecessary, except
that I do have the LA, and it will transfer the samples I catch to my PC,
allowing me to use the pictures I take for documentation prepared on the PC.
I became convinced of the need for a small and handy tool like the sampler I
mentioned before. This palm-sized device only served me once, because one
of my colleagues insisted I sell it to him. He had already borrowed it for
use elsewhere and had no plan to return it. I think I've come up with a
reasonable triggering circuit, so I may build another version.
My TEK logic analyzer is about the size and weight of a TEK portable
oscilloscope, and, hence is more portable than today's typical LA. I don't
use it unless I need it, but once it's on the work surface, it sees a bit of
use. I still miss the gadget with the wires hanging out the ends, though,
as it was the size of one of the pods on this LA.
>I rarely use a 'scope for computer (digital) repairs. It's essential for
>analogue work, fixing SMPSUs, etc. But I don't find it _that_ useful on
>typical non-repetitive digital signals.
What you describe is really just a 4-channel 'scope. What I would recommend
for anyone who attacks a system problem like this one is to use a small LA
like mine so he/she can capture the signals on the CPU card, the signals on
the bus, and the signals on the DRAM board. The addresses and data aren't
really essential, though it's useful to have one of each so one can see when
they become stabile, and little short of a logic analyzer will support so
many signals.
>> >With rare exception and all if a board doesn't work scoping it may or
may
>> >not help. just follow the logic with a logic probe as likely it's a
chip
>> >or socket failure. The reason is the board worked, was sold working and
>> >if it were good it should still work. The exception is when you have
bus
>
>Don't bet on it. I've lost count of the number of misdesigned (often
>subtly - like marginal timing or ground bounce problems) DRAM cards that
>I've had to sort out.
>
>Also, a logic probe won't detect _some_ chip failures. You've got a 2
>input NAND gate. The logic probe shows nice pulse trains on all 3
>connections. You think it's OK and move on. What it hasn't told you is
>that one input does nothing, and the gate is a simple inverter on the
>other input. Yes, I've seen exactly that fault.
>
That's certainly a valid observation. In this case, however, it is likely
that the cards will require some sort of redesign in order to make them not
only work together but work more or less in a standard way. That requires
lots of careful observation, more easily done with a logic analyzer than
with a 'scope or anything less.
>
>>
>> I've found the 'scope and LA more trouble to use than a meter and a logic
>> probe, but I've also learned that I get more useful information about
DRAM
>> boards by looking at their DRAM control strobes and timing relative to
the
>> memory access strobes and data than I could get with a meter and logic
probe
>> under any circumstances. So many DRAM cards are at least partly timed
with
>> one-shots, a tool which merely tells you sommething's happening but
doesn't
>> tell you what, is not of much use in THIS case.
>
>Agreeded.
>
>
>I've 'advertised' it before, but HP's LogicDart (the small logic analyser
>I mentioned a few screens back) is a very useful tool. It's probably
>overkill for most people here, but if you do a lot of component level
>repairs, or if you do design, it's certainly worth considering. It is as
>easy to use as a logic probe for simple measurements (tap one probe on a
>point and it'll tell you high/low/clocking, the mean DC voltage, and the
>frequency. Press a button and it'll capture the logic waveform at that
>point), but can do a lot more.
>
>-tony
>
please see embedded remarks below.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: Re[4]: More Bringing up a CPM
><Even if you don't intend to use PROMs in your final device, I'd certainly
><recommend you build a few PROMS which make the processor do rudimentary
><things and perhaps which make the DMAC do the same things. You then have
><simple tools with which to troubleshoot your memory interfaces.
>
>that can be helpful. I just use the CPU executing junk FF/00 or whatever
>else the bus lets it see,
This might work but is rarely predictable.
><After reading about the problems you're having, I think I'll fetch the 124
><LA out onto the patio as well.
>
>I troubleshoot 90% of my s100 problems with a good logic probe and
>a DVM. The rare case I've dragged out the scope it was handy but usually
>because I missed something stupid. The recent NS* bring up required the
>logic probe, its where I spotted a missing Mwrite/ (jumper smeared off the
>cpu board).
The logic analyzer is handy for gathering information about what a given
board does in a specific environment. I though I'd like to have pictures of
the cycle at the bus to correlate with the same cycle at the DRAMs, since I
have over a dozen DRAM boards to check out. This will give me information
about the various DRAM boards as well as the cycle timing generated by the
various CPU's.
>With rare exception and all if a board doesn't work scoping it may or may
>not help. just follow the logic with a logic probe as likely it's a chip
>or socket failure. The reason is the board worked, was sold working and
>if it were good it should still work. The exception is when you have bus
>incompatability problems and a scope will not help unless your going to
>alter the board to make it work assuming it was not also broken.
>
I've found the 'scope and LA more trouble to use than a meter and a logic
probe, but I've also learned that I get more useful information about DRAM
boards by looking at their DRAM control strobes and timing relative to the
memory access strobes and data than I could get with a meter and logic probe
under any circumstances. So many DRAM cards are at least partly timed with
one-shots, a tool which merely tells you sommething's happening but doesn't
tell you what, is not of much use in THIS case.
>
>Allison
>
>
> If you want to make one, all it consists of are those 2-colour LEDs (red
> and green diode in antiparallel) with 2 wires in series with a 3k
> resistor (3k3 would also work) between the above mentioned signals and
> Signal Ground. But they're pretty cheap to buy ready-made.
>
> -tony
Radio shack has them for about $10. An invaluable tool!
Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: More Bringing up a CPM
>ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
>--snip--
>> Then I got a small (small enough to sit on top of any part of a machine),
>> simple (but expensive!) logic analyzer.
>
> I still don't like LA's because they can often hide real
>signals. You see this nice squared wave that has been sampled
>by the LA's input. The real live circuit may see something
>else entirely.
The logic analyzer won't hide significant information about the logic and
timing. If you sample at twice the frequency of the fastest harmonic you
want to observe, you won't miss a thing. My ten-year-old TEK1240 only
samples at 100 MHz on 9 of its 72 inputs. The remainder can sample at
maximally 50 MHz. It is also capable of catching glitches. This is not
much by today's standards, but that sample rate will certainly answer
questions about the S-100 bus without fear of ambiguity.
>> What it hasn't told you is that one input does nothing,
>> and the gate is a simple inverter on the other input.
>> Yes, I've seen exactly that fault.
>
>This is why I use my oscilloscope instead of a logic probe.
>I can use more than one channel ( I don't consider single
>channel 'scope to be useful for much more than patterns
>in Sci-Fi movies ). Two channels is a minimum. While it
>is true that non-repetitive patterns are hard to deal with,
>in a computer I can often find a way to make the signal of
>interest repetitive. In the rare case that I can't ( only
>twice in 20 years of working with these things ), I rent
>a logic analyzer.
>IMHO
>Dwight
>
On Wednesday, June 02, 1999 4:05 PM, CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com
[SMTP:CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com] wrote:
> >> Athana is my preferred floppy media wholesaler. Go to
http://www.athana.com/.
>
> >But they stopped listing prices on their web page. Its rather annoying
> >to shop for floppy disks, when you have to call and ask for a quote
> >for each type you're interested in.
>
A few years ago, I threw out about 25K new 5-1/4 DSDD disks. I still have a
couple of cases left and they're up for grabs. There are 500 disks in a
case although, I usually yank out a couple of packets to make room for ther
sleeves.
I'll send them to anyone on the list for the cost of shipping * 1.2 (from
south Florida). I'd rather ship full cases but, will break them if no-one
wants that many. IIRC, a full case weighs about 15 or 16 pounds so take
that into consideration.
I also have a couple of cases of used ones that I'll let go for shipping *
1.
First come, first served.
Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>
>> Athana is my preferred floppy media wholesaler. Go to http://www.athana.com/.
>But they stopped listing prices on their web page. Its rather annoying
>to shop for floppy disks, when you have to call and ask for a quote
>for each type you're interested in.
Well, they *are* a manufacturer/wholesaler, and David's question did
say that he was interested in buying in bulk. I personally don't have
any problem with making a phone call to get a quote if I'm buying $1000
or $2000 worth of media.
On a side-note, Athana also has a very good selection of bulk
demagnetizers. See http://www.athana.com/ddequip/medequip.html
In particular, they've got a very nice table of media coercivities
and a "Degaussing FAQ" there.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
>Hey guys, we have a piece of equipment at work which requires
>DSDD 3.5" floppies. It won't work with the HD ones. And it's NEW
>equipment at that. Anyway, does anyone have a source for these
>where I could buy a large lot?
Athana is my preferred floppy media wholesaler. Go to http://www.athana.com/.
> I seem to recall a site on the net
>which sold them as well as 8" floppies but don't recall.
Athana also sells 8" floppies in bulk, as well as many 14" packs and
cartridges...
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
This isn't quite classic--but almost.
I'm looking for a memory card for a Toshiba T3300SL laptop.
(A 386/25 circa 1992.)
Possible parts include Toshiba:
PC-PA2009U (16MB)
PC-PA2008U (6MB)
or Kingston:
KTT3300SL/16 (16MB)
KTT3300SL/8 (8MB)
KTT3300SL/6 (6MB)
with the larger sizes preferred, of course.
Other vendors may have compatible parts, too.
I have 2MB and 4MBcards that I'd be happy to trade/sell/giveaway
if I am able to find a larger card.
If you have one of these or know a good source, please let me know.
(I've searched for sites for the larger sizes on the Internet
to no avail.)
Thanks,
Dave
I'm also posting this response to classiccmp in case others are interested
in some of the details....
You wrote...
>Eek! COOL!! What media did you locate the software on? Is it running
>(or soon to be) on your 1000F's?
The media is still in transit, I haven't got it yet. He said it was on 7900A
disk cartridge, but he might also send it on 1/2 tape. It will start out
life running on two 2100A's. Then it will migrate to either my 2109B/2113B
or if that fails the 2117F's. Eventually it will also run on a Unix or
DOS/WIN PC via an emulator.
>Aargh! What is the capacity of a 7900A? Does the "Access" version
>require (shudder) a drum?
The 7900A is 5mb (2.5 fixed, 2.5 removable). The 7906 is 20mb (10 fixed, 10
removable). Only the very earliest versions of TSB used a Drum; since the
Access version is the last version of TSB ever made, it will run fine
without a drum (probably can't use a drum either). Even if I ever got a drum
unit, I think that would be beyond my capabilities to repair.
>So, for reference; what are the capacities (and form factors) of the
>listed drives? For that matter, what are the interface types? Are there
>third party equivs?
The 7900 uses a 12940 cartridge. This is a single platter, 24 hard sector
cartridge. It has a raised area on the top that opens to accept the heads
when inserted into the drive. From what I understand about RK05's, the disk
cartridge is mechanically/cosmetically similar. The 7906 uses a similar
cartridge (12989), but there is only one sector notch on the hub instead of
24. The 7920 (which I'm not really familiar with) I think used a 10 platter
top loading cartridge. PS - I might have 12940 and 12989 interchanged
above - poor memory :) Also, I don't recall the mils measurements, but the
internal media platter is a different thickness between the 12940 and 12989.
The 7900 drive hooked up to a 13210 controller in the cpu backplane. You
could daisychain 3 more drives off the main 13210 controller.
The 7906 used a different arrangement. In the cpu backplane was a 13037
card, which went to a rackmount box called a 13037 disc control unit (about
5 inches tall). Cables from the 13037 went to each 7905/7906/7920 drive.
ISTR that the 13037 disc control unit (rev C at least) could support up to
eight drives, and could support two separate computers. It also supposedly
supported HP-IB drives too (but I don't think TSB would use the HP-IB
drives, even through the 13037).
>No, can't have that! Redundancy and all!! 'Off-site archive?' B^}
I haven't settled on which systems I'll run it on yet (2100, 21MXE or
21MXF), Because I haven't, I will likely have some equipment left over from
my scavenging. If so, it will be offered on classiccmp.
>Aargh II! I'll try shaking some bushes around here and see if anything
>falls out.
Mucho Appreciation!
Jay West
You wrote...
>I thought the A series followed, ending in the A990 ... which is called
>a "1000" in HP's docs. (The A series are single board computers,
>with the A990 listed as "3 MIPS")
Thanks for the tip Stan! I know absolutely nothing about the A series. I
didn't know if they were also part of the 1000 line. I appreciate your
correction. One remarkable characteristic about the 2100/21MX line is that
each sucessive machine released supported full backwards instruction set
compatibility. For instance, the 21MX M, E, and F series all are fully
backwards compatible with the 2100 instruction set (except for timing
dependent loops). Do you know if the A series also supports the 2100
instruction set?
>I'm still in the process of sorting through dozens of boxes of HP manuals,
>but I've noticed at least two boxes of HP 1000 manuals of various kinds
>(including some maint/diag manuals). I'll post more later, when I've
>figured out more.
Of course, I'd love to hear what 1000 manuals you might have!
Jay West
Sorry for the global message, but how can I get digest mode emails from this
group? Thanks.
--------------------------------------------------------
Todd Osborne
Senior Software Engineer
FMStrategies, Inc.
http://www.fmstrategies.com/
--------------------------------------------------------
FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne(a)fmstrategies.com
Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne(a)barnstormer-software.com
--------------------------------------------------------
Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++)
http://www.vwcl.org/
--------------------------------------------------------
Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/)
Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me.
COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer)
--------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
2 Wrongs Don't Make a Right, But 3 Rights Make a Left!
--------------------------------------------------------
The subject says it all... Anyone have a copy that they could be parted
from?
-jim
---
jimw(a)computergarage.org
The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
>>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives
>>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live!
>> As far as publication is concerned, if you publish sensitive information
about a
>> person, there may be an action for defamation or some similar offence even if
it
>> is true.
>
> Unless that person is in the 'public's eye', like the president? Please
correct me
> if i'm wrong.
I have no idea what the legal situation is for a public figure, but I had always
assumed that in such cases things are published simply because the (financial)
benefits of doing so outweigh the (also financial) punishments imposed by the
law. I didn't think that the law actually made an exception.
>> > I wasn't talking about morals. I'd probably find the previous owner and
give
>> it to
>> > them, if they wanted it. otherwise I'd trash it. I have no use for old
>> letters and
>> > bank statements....
>>
>> So you weren't talking about morals. Maybe you should have been thinking
about
>> them, though. If someone makes a mistake and you discover it, what should
you
>> (morally) do? Exploit it for financial gain? Or help them put it right?
>>
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> If you read past my first sentence you would have seen my answer.
I read several of your sentences. You said something about what you would
probably do and something about what you considered you had a right to do, but
little about what you _ought_ to do.
That said, this is a mailing list, not a private letter. Such questions are
often inserted for rhetorical reasons, not merely to extract a particular
correspondent's answers. Should I have written "IAMTA" against it or something?
IAMTA.
>> There have indeed. Generally after copyright has expired, which in most
>> countries now happens 50 or 70 years after the death of the writer. In the
case
>> of war diaries and the like, these are usually published with the permission,
if
>> not the active co-operation, of the author. This is a useful guide for when
>> personal data ceases to be sensitive - 50 to 70 years after the death of the
>> person concerned.
>
> How long is the copyright for software?
If the law doesn't specifically fix a different period, and I would be surprised
if it did, it will be just as long as for anything else.
A legal grey area looms here. What is software? The text of a personal letter
as typed in a word processor isn't; the source of a program is; but things in
between like spreadsheets, databases, even text formatter source code could have
problems in defining software. (In this context. In the context of the
Hardware vs Software debate, for example, all the above are soft)
> Regardless, I still _believe_ that it is the seller who is responsible for the
data,
> if not morally or legally, than just for personal safety and/or fear of
> embarrassment, or just paranoia. This of course is my opinion. I've never
sold a
> computer without first wiping everything off of it, and i don't have any info
i
> would consider sensitive or very private stored on there.
I agree that the seller has a duty to keep sensitive data safe, and off the
machine if he can. But I claim that the buyer also has such a duty. This may
be a cultural difference - in the UK it is still exceedingly impolite to read
someone else's mail without first being offered it by the person concerned, no
matter how close your relationship (genetic or social) with them (I think
husbands and wives may be an exception - still impolite but not exceedingly so)
> On the hypothetical about the drug dealer and his buyers, sellers and account
info:
> As a (insert your country) citizen, isn't it your duty to inform the
authorities of
> such crimes? Obstruction of justice comes to mind, for one (U.S.A).
That is a very nasty moral grey area. A similar question has been asked by
people repairing video cassette machines: if I find evidence that someone has
gone to great, even destructive, trouble to remove a jammed cassette from a
machine, should I report a suspicion about (e.g.) obscene videos?
I don't have a solution to this moral problem. I don't know whether I have a
stronger duty to my country (or the laws thereof) or to the person I'm dealing
with. But I don't think I have a duty to pry where I'm not wanted in order to
incriminate people. Police detectives are employed for that purpose.
> And that situation about the 'shrink' failing to wipe his drive of very
private and
> sensitive info before selling it was just plain irresponsible. Would he throw
out
> letters or whole files without first shredding them? It is _*HIS*_
responsibility
> for those papers, as is it his ethical duty to guard those papers and files he
> stores in his office. Heck, the police needs a search order to gain access to
those
> files, why should one have access to those files, paper and other types,
simply
> because he/she failed to delete or shred them before a sell? <( or he/she
moves to
> another office and leaves her filing cabinet at old office?) If my
information
> were in that drive and i found out about it, I would demand he lost his
license for
> incompetence.
You seem to be pointing to a view almost opposite to that you expressed earlier,
here. If the police need a warrant to examine these files, someone who
accidentally stumbles on them (say on the hard disk of an old machine) surely
cannot have a right to do very much with them...
There is certainly a lot of incompetence there. And for some of it the cure is
education. People should know if there is sensitive stuff on the drive. But
they should be able to trust us to delete it if they can't do so. I wouldn't
expect the psychiatrist to know how to wipe the drive in a computer that no
longer boots, for example. But they should know enough to ask us to delete it
when they give us the machine.
> I would think that computer files are considered the same as paper files under
the
> law, again US law. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Under UK law, specifically the Data Protection Act, controls on computer files
are stricter than those on paper files. I don't know all the details of the act
- I suppose now is the time to find out...
> Anyways, if we really wanted to find the legal thing to do, one of us should
contact
> a lawyer friend that specializes in this. What category does this fall under
anyway
> (the personal information bit, not the software licenses)?
The American approach. Whatever you do, ask a lawyer :-)
I'd err more on the side of Least said, soonest mended. But I really don't
think this problem will go away. People who use computers need to be educated
in such matters. And - I claim - better not by frightening them too hard.
Philip.
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I've finally found all the pieces to bring up my HP2000/TSB system (the last
pieces I need are being shipped to me in August). For those interested, it
will be the "Access" version. One thing I recently found out is that I don't
have enough disk space to load the contributed library on my single 7900A
drive.
Would anyone happen to know of a source (or have any to spare) for 7900A,
7905, 7906 (non-H), or 7920 HP drives? One more drive would go a long way
towards getting a TSB system up and running. To my knowledge (and believe me
I've searched high and low) mine would be the only running TSB system left.
Can anyone help me? I saw these drives for sale at crisis, but they want
$2300.00 each - a difficult pill to swallow :(
Jay West
The Xerox 3700 is a high speed laser printer of the first generation. It has
a built in terminal/controller. The 5 1/4" 360K floppy was used to load fonts
and emulation software. Most of them were based on the Dataproducts printer
interface. It was built on the chassis of a Xerox copier of the times.
Usually they have a nice 5-7mw laser tube and power supply in them. I don't
know of any other current use for them.
Paxton
There are two valid and conflicting points here. The first is
legal: I (not being a lawyer or anything) believe it is probably
legal to take data from any system you legally acquire. The
second is pragmatic: if people know that you do this, none of us
will ever again get any meaningful parts of a classic machine.
The ethics of the matter are another matter, but in view of the
pragmatics, that seems moot. Making use of any such data is
suicide, at least in the long-term. Even if you are ethically
impaired enough to do this, please don't admit it in public.
This list, BTW, is archived and publically available at two web
sites that I know of, and maybe others that I don't.
Cheers,
Bill.
On Sun, 30 May 1999, bluoval <bluoval(a)mindspring.com> wrote:
] Tony Duell wrote:
] > >
] > > I wasn't following this thread but here's my opinion.
] > > A buy a house and everything it contains. There just happenes to be a treasure
] > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
] > There's the first difference. In most cases you're _not_ buying a computer
] > and all the data on the hard drive.
]
] If I buy a computer w/ a hard drive, what ever data it might contain is mine also.
] The seller is/was responsable for the data on there, not the buyer. the seller
] should've deleted what he thought was sensitive information. Unless the data is
] copyrighted, I have every right to do as i please with it, which would most likely
] be erasure.
Actually, this point isn't entirely right. Most likely the software
on that disk was under license, which couldn't be legally transferred
to you even if the seller wanted to. If you really believe you own
it, try taking some not-so-terribly-old Micro$oft product from a
scrap PC, making copies and reselling them. If you really own it,
no big-company lawyers will have a thing to say about it. :-)
] > If I buy a computer and the seller says 'Here's the master disks for all
] > the software I installed, and here are the licenses which I'll help you
] > to transfer to your name', then I think it's reasonable to assume that
] > you're getting that software as well. If he says 'BTW, I've left the
] > source code to a <whatever> that I was working on on the hard disk,
] > please take a look' then, again, I have no problem in reading said source
] > code.
] >
] > That is _not_ what we're talking about.
] >
] > > map in there leading me to a pot of gold. who owns the gold? ME.
Fine. If the seller of the computer agrees to sell you the data
as well the machine itself, you own it. But when somebody sells
you a house, the contract is not likely to say "house and all pots
of gold contained therein", nor is the seller of a computer likely
to agree that you own all data he forgot/was unable to delete.
Since nobody sane would ever agree to that, you are probably on
shakey ground assuming that it was part of the sale. So knowingly
using it for profit or to the seller's detriment would probably
put you on the losing end of a lawsuit.
] > Suppose you buy a house+contents. Stuffed down the back of a chair are
] > some old personal letters, bank statements, etc. Do you really think you
] > have the moral right to publish them? I certainly don't.
]
] I wasn't talking about morals. I'd probably find the previous owner and give
] it to them, if they wanted it. otherwise I'd trash it. I have no use for old
] letters and bank statements....
]
]
] > I must admit that if I bought a computer and found some previous repaired
] > had left the schematics or a diagnostic module inside, I might be tempted
] > to keep them and make use of them. That's a far cry from personal data,
] > though.
]
] There have been many books published from people's personal data... diaries,
...
] Do you think these people would have wanted their data published by some person
] who just happened to find it in an attic, in a house he just bought? probably
] not, but historically they're priceless.
But to publish that sort of discovery before it has properly aged
would put you in the category of tabloid rather than history buff.
Still legal, *maybe*, but certainly not likely to inspire future
donations.
> I have some DRAM boards that I've used with my Poly88.
>These are 64K boards and I thought I'd use them but the disk's
>DMA doesn't seem to write to them. I'm able to read and write
>from the front toggles, just not from the DMA to the RAM.
>
> Does anyone know what the problem is here? Is there some
>timing or pin out issue with DRAMs that would cause this
>to happen in a standard IMSAI 8080? I'd really like to use
>this DRAM because I trust it more than the statics in the
>system, at least until I get things fully functional.
Welcome to the world of S-100, where DRAM boards often didn't
support DMA controllers properly. In some cases, you can rejumper
them so that the DMA vs refresh timing conflict isn't such a problem.
But many of us just went to pure static RAM systems where DMA
was being done.
What disk controller are you using, BTW? In some cases the problem
isn't so much the memory, but it's the disk controller.
> In any case, I think just getting to the A> prompt is
>a major mile stone. I had to completely write a boot loader,
>CBIOS, disk formatter and serial data transfer to get this far.
It certainly is a major milestone. Congratulations!
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Heads up in Oz, mates....
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:55:25 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
To: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Free to a good home... (fwd)
----- Forwarded message from John Dodson -----
From: John Dodson <johnd(a)physiol.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Free to a good home...
Free to a good home...
Complete set of RSX11-M manuals. (Yes it ran on a PDP11 ;-)
Complete set of Ultrix manuals. (Oh Ok so it ran on Vaxes ;-)
One or 2 PDP-11/23's + some i/o cards (I'm not making a list, YOU must
look, decide & negotiate with me to let them go...)
A volunteer prepared to make a list would be OK.
Contact:
John Dodson, Dept of Physiology, (F13)
johnd(a)physiol.usyd.edu.au & Faculty of Medicine,
http://www.physiol.usyd.edu.au/johnd University of Sydney,
Phone +61 2 9351 3277 NSW 2006
Fax +61 2 9351 2058 Australia.
Bring a strong friend when you pick it up. You have a week before the docs are
trashed. The machines & cards I'll keep for a while till they find a good home.
Sorry I cannot (will not) deliver.
----- End of forwarded message from John Dodson -----
<Even if you don't intend to use PROMs in your final device, I'd certainly
<recommend you build a few PROMS which make the processor do rudimentary
<things and perhaps which make the DMAC do the same things. You then have
<simple tools with which to troubleshoot your memory interfaces.
that can be helpful. I just use the CPU executing junk FF/00 or whatever
else the bus lets it see,
<After reading about the problems you're having, I think I'll fetch the 124
<LA out onto the patio as well.
I troubleshoot 90% of my s100 problems with a good logic probe and
a DVM. The rare case I've dragged out the scope it was handy but usually
because I missed something stupid. The recent NS* bring up required the
logic probe, its where I spotted a missing Mwrite/ (jumper smeared off the
cpu board).
With rare exception and all if a board doesn't work scoping it may or may
not help. just follow the logic with a logic probe as likely it's a chip
or socket failure. The reason is the board worked, was sold working and
if it were good it should still work. The exception is when you have bus
incompatability problems and a scope will not help unless your going to
alter the board to make it work assuming it was not also broken.
Allison
<correctly. Hence, DRAMs before '83-84 were somewhat iffy on the S-100. B
<then, of course, the S-100 was, more or less, history. One of the things
There were a few that worked really well but one look at the design said
why, good designs work. One of the worst ones used gate delays for the
ras-muc-cas timing...
<may be, but DRAMs are not as difficult or fussy as a lot of people have
<said. I've designed literally dozens of different DRAM circuits which in
The ones that work were near unbreakable, there wer a few notables by 1980
and by 82 a swamp of them.
<DMA was popular for early FDC's in the mid '70's because 8080 processors
<were too slow to get around the loop fast enough to transfer data from
Not true for S100 systems. DMA was hardware intensive and the 8257 was
too expensive and too difficult to use with the rather helter skelter
signals. The 8080 would do SD 8" no problem and DD5.25 with not much
difficulty but the programming tricks were basically ugly.
CP/M only moved 128 bytes at a time, so moving multiple sectors was wasted
for the most part unless you were caching.
In the multibus and STD bus worlds things were quite a bit saner.
Allison
