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101090 discussions

Disney Sound Source --> A success! Now: Covox Speech Thing

by roblwill＠usaor.net

I just found drivers for the Sound Source today. It turned out that one of the people on my ICQ list also has a Sound Source. I loaded the Win 3.1 drivers in my P70, fired it up, and it works! Now my next 'project'. I have an old Covox Speech Thing that I've had sitting around for quite some time. Just for the heck of it, I plugged it into the parallel port of the P70, fired up the P70, loaded windows, and.... A garbled mess of undefinable static came out of the speaker... I'm guessing that this means that it works, but has nowhere near the capabilities of the Sound Source. I remember that someone had emailed me, saying that they had the drivers for the Speech Thing (I know that Sputter is supposed to drive it, but have no clue how to set it up because I don't know the port address of the parallel port on my SupersPORT...) I lost the email of the person that said they had the drivers (HD crash - *stupid windoze*). Do you remember who you are? ThAnX, ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1>

26 years, 6 months

HP Sketchpro digitiser

by davhos＠magna.com.au

Can anyone help me with any technical information on HP SketchPro digitiser. Product number 45911B. I have the device but nothing else. Even to know the DIP switch settings would be a big help. Thanks David

26 years, 6 months

**RARE** "Altair-like" HP1000 minicomputer

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 6/7/99 5:25:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jlwest(a)tseinc.com writes: > Geez... I didn't know all machines with switches and > lights had the same architecture <grin>. Who cares about the messy details ... think I'll put a zx81 in a box with a bunch of switches & leds & post it on eBay: *** RARE British prototype computer with 1KB RAM / advanced BASIC built in" *** Should be good for about $200, eh? Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0

26 years, 6 months

**RARE** "Altair-like" HP1000 minicomputer K00L K00L Vintage! <grin>

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

At 07:47 PM 6/7/99 -0700, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > >Has anyone heard of the HP1000 anyway, at least in a home/hobbyist >context? It looks more like an industrial-type computer to me, something >that would have never seen the inside of most private homes, unlike the >Altair or IMSAI. . . Ok, so call me odd (you would not be the first)... But I have a pair of HP 1000F CPUs (aka HP 2117F). One of the early systems I used in school was a timeshared BASIC system that ran on HP CPUs, so there is a sentimental attachment here. Pictures on my web pages... -jim --- jimw(a)computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

26 years, 6 months

ID this PC card

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Hi, I picked up an old IBM AT the other day and found a strange card in it. It's a full length card with an 8 bit ISA plug. It has two Burr Brown DAC800P-CBI-V ( D to A?) ICs on it along with a large IC marked TSC 7109CPL. (I have no idea what that one is.) There is also a small flat sealed Yuasa NiCad battery in the top corner of the card. It has 37 pin male connector on the back and it's marked "copyright 1983 MBC". Most of the ICs are dated 1986. It looks like it may be some kind of D to A convertor card. Does anyone know what it is for sure? Joe

26 years, 6 months

Disk Drive Documents

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well? . . . now you see why we disagree. This doesn't just extend to you and to me, but rather to lots of other people who use documentation differently. Consequently there are differing needs which I believe need to be addressed. This won't happen if all we do is trash the other guy's solution. We need to find an adequate accomodation which has the potential, at least, of meeting almost everybody's needs with an increase in work as the scarcity of the need increases. Now, that may still not make you happy, but it will at least try to prevent leaving you, or anyone else high and dry, don't you agree? . . . and you'll have to do more than shout to convince me that's (meaning the fact every page is a document apart from the one major unit to which it belongs) not a big part of why the LINUX doc's are so impenetrably muddled. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 8:07 PM Subject: Re: Disk Drive Documents >> >> Now, I don't want to go off chasing another rabbit, but there is one point >> about published documents that I would like to make. That's that I think a >> complete document should be archived as a complete document. Lack of this > >Archived as a complete document != is only one file once unpacked... > >> unity is the reason or at least a majorly contributing factor in why the >> LINUX documentation is so screwed up, out of sync with itself, and out of >> sync with the software to which it applies. If people can fiddle with >> individual pieces of a document in its "library" then it's not long before > >RUBBISH!!!. > >The reason linux documentation is in small pieces is to make it easier to >keep it in sync with the software. > >Look, I rewrite some bit of linux. I also rewrite the appropriate >documentation file (man page or whatever). You download them and install >them. Your on-line manual is now updated to include the changes I made to >the software. > >Otherwise it would be _impossible_ to keep the documentation up to date. > >> it's corrupted. That's a positive feature for the single-document >> indivisible archive approach I prefer. Once you have possession of a copy, >> you're at liberty to fiddle with it all you want, but not at the source. >> >> I spent the better part of a year trying to get complete documents from >> Sunsite and other loci when I had the urge to learn about LINUX. It seemed >> that EVERY PARAGRAPH was a separate file . . . what a PAIN. There I sat, >> 50 computers, 35 TB of storage available half a dozen available DS3's for >> internet traffic, and I had to type one character for every ten I >> downloaded, or so it seemed. >> >> There's got to be a better way. Please tell me what it is. > >Err... Buy a book on unix (Linux includes almost everything you'd expect >to find on a unix system). Buy some of the better books on linux. >Download the archive files of documentation. Download some of the >complete manuals from the LDP. What more do you need? > >-tony >

26 years, 6 months

Disk Drive Documents

by edick＠idcomm.com

I freely admit that I'm not a UNIX expert, or even knowledgable to be dangerous. I've driven vi and grep a few dozen times and installed drivers, etc, and typed 'make' followed by a bit of other text, but the way I use documents, is that I read everything I can about the subject and remember it, largely verbatim, for LONG periods of time. Few people do that, but I'm one. When you do that, the most obvious thing about the subject and about the documentation is the inconsistency in the documentation. I'm a stickler for precise documents. Maybe this is not part of your reality, but it's how the world works for me. I've avoided UNIX for all the years, since I was in college in the VERY early '60's, not that it was an issue back then, and, clearly, though I have had nearly a dozen dedicated machines running it right here, and I don't any more, I've concluded that that's not what I want to study. I don't remember things as well as I did when I was a student, perhaps due to overflow, and maybe I'll do things differently in the future, but that's the approach to documents that I can best grasp, so I've staked that territory out for myself. It doesn't matter to me that few or many people use the information in question. I've had it for 20-25 years in some cases and never even used some of the items myself, but recently, I've seen numerous posts and received inquiries about one or another of these documents. Clearly, someone wants to use them. If you don't need this data, you won't serve anyone by looking it over. If you do, I suppose you'll have to satisfy your curiosity somewhere. The computer where the data's stored won't care, and I won't even know. When I see data available somewhere, I consider whether I want it, and, if so, I find a way . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 8:10 PM Subject: Re: Disk Drive Documents >On Mon, 7 Jun 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >>I did that, and as you say, they're generally just reductions to CD of the >>published e-docs, except that they're permanently mixed together out of >>logical or chronological sequence, so you can't track progress of a given >>feature set. I wasn't after info on UNIX, I was after info on LINUX. >>However that's not what THIS thread is about. > >If you're already familiar with UNIX, then your point is well taken. If >you're not, and wish to use Linux, you should get familiar. They are >almost the same in many instances as far as user interface is concerned. > >>I'm not sure clumsy is what it is, but it's inherently solvable if not >>elegant. If I can break out parts of the document into PCL, then I can do >>that into POSTSCRIPT as well, and so can you. If the guy down the hall >>can't, he can ask for help. > >I won't be using these docs if they ever are made, so I'll shut up now :) > >--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power >

26 years, 6 months

**RARE** "Altair-like" HP1000 minicomputer K00L K00L Vintage! <grin>

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

You wrote... >Has anyone heard of the HP1000 anyway, at least in a home/hobbyist >context? It looks more like an industrial-type computer to me, something >that would have never seen the inside of most private homes, unlike the >Altair or IMSAI. . . Er... uh.... yeah, I agree with the above poster ;) HP1000's probably aren't of interest to any collectors, so don't tell anyone if you see one ;) Nope, never heard of the HP1000's ;) Probably just industrial things, never used for general data processing ;) If you ever see one, I wouldn't be interested, but let me know anyway, k? <GRIN> Jay

26 years, 6 months

Disk Drive Documents

by edick＠idcomm.com

please see (non-combative) comments embedded below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 6:45 PM Subject: Re: Disk Drive Documents >> All of this suggests that Word documents are a complete non-starter, and >> however convenient PDF is in some ways, it shouldn't be the *only* format >> provided. I think we're all agreed on that? I'd also submit that >> PostScript is less useful than either. There are few systems that can >> handle PostScript but not PDF; all can handle ASCII+GIF; it can be a real > >Hmm... Well, if it's level 1 postscript you can print it on an old Apple >LW2NT printer, and those are pretty cheap and common now. They're also >dead easy to fix :-). > >Maybe I was being a little biased, as that's the printer(s) I have here, >so I have few problems with postscript. On the other hand, postscript is >hardly suitable as a medium for distributing documents (IMHO). > >Are there really more machines with modern PDF views than ones that can >run ghostscript? I thought that was available for virtually all >modern-ish OSes, and anyway, source is available so porting it should be >possible. The problem with PS is that it's not trivial (or achievable with freeware) to display, scale, search, or selectively print portions of it, is it? PDF allows all these. True, that's no help if you can't run Acroread. >> pain extracting individual pages from PostScript, especially the > >True. I think I was suggesting (but not seriously suggesting) a separate >postscript file for each page. > >> >> PDF is nice because it can preserve the original layout, with diagrams in > >This is great if you're the sort of person who believes layout is more >important than content. It can be a right pain if the user wishes to >alter the layout for whatever reason. Perhaps not the art of the layout, but the order in which things are presented certainly can make the different between a very informative and easy-to-use document and one which is impenetrable. That doesn't mean it is MORE important than the content, but it's important enough. >> the right places etc, but for many purposes having the diagrams separate >> (and viewed in a separate window) is actually a nicer way of working -- > >Agreed... > >Actually, I've just thought of something. > >I have the shop manauls for some old (1960s) Citroen cars. Like all Citroen >products, these manuals are unconventional. > >You open them in landscape format. The top part is then a 'book' of >diagrams (only). The bottom part is the text, which refers to the >diagrams by number. > >Actually, this is _extremely_ convenient when you're working. You can >keep a particular diagram open while you read the text that goes with it. >Or turn up a different, but related, diagram. > >The same thing could apply to computer manuals. How many times have you >found yourself flipping between a circuit description and the schematic. >I suspect that's one reason why DEC used to publish the printset >(schematics) and maintenance manual (description) as separate books. >Many times I've wanted to keep both open at once. > >One other thing to consider. Given separate text and diagrams, it's easy >to (automatically) combine them into one document. It's much harder to >separate them again. > >[...] > >> There are plenty of document formats that don't keep everything in one >> file. Why should that be a requirement? There are probably more systems > >In fact whenever I've written a large document, I've always split it up >into separate files. Makes it a lot easier to manage (like splitting up >source code into separate files, I guess). > >[PDF] > >> [1] unless I discover that the "text" within it isn't OCRed or typed, but >> scanned bitmaps, in which case I'll likely throw it away again. > >YES!. A PDF file shouldn't be used as a way of grouping a number of >single-page bitmaps together. > >-tony > I don't like those minimal-effort-PDF's which look like faxed documents, badly aligned with the page boundaries, and looking like poorly rendered dot-matrix images either, but I think it's highly important, for the confidence of the user if not out of respect for the originator, to put forth a creditable presentation of the original document. Making it barley readable means nearly illegible which is nearly worthless. OCR'ing, however, invites editing, reformatting, and other sins, which , out of respect for the document's originator, and probably still owner, should be avoided. Besides, having what is, for all intent and purpose a complete de-facto facsimile (not fax) of the document in question as opposed to an edited and possibly corrupted copy is a great confidence builder the third day you're trying to effect a repair in which you NEED the document. That's another reason to make the file monolithic in my view.

26 years, 6 months

Disk Drive Documents

by edick＠idcomm.com

That, in fact, is the case here. I have two laser printers and three ink-spitters, and a pen plotter, none of which speak PS. They even require different dialects of PCL. There's even an impact printer from the DOT-Matrix (for multi-part forms) which doesn't speak either. The only language common to all my printers is ASCII. All but the TOSHIBA Dot-Matrix printer speak HPGL if they're prodded. How can the needs of the many be met without disabling resolution of the needs of the few, and vice-versa? Who will do the work? From which of several source formats? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 6:08 PM Subject: Re: Disk Drive Documents >On Jun 7, 18:30, Max Eskin wrote: >> I recommend PostScript at least as an option, since it's inside every >> laser printer and many inkjets. > >obNitPick: My laserprinter doesn't have PostScript, only PCL. Lots of >lasers don't, and not many inkjets, at least in my experience. I drive my >laserjet from a PostScript raster engine (not Ghostscript) running on one >of my unix machines. > > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York

26 years, 6 months

Disk Drive Documents

by edick＠idcomm.com

Now, I don't want to go off chasing another rabbit, but there is one point about published documents that I would like to make. That's that I think a complete document should be archived as a complete document. Lack of this unity is the reason or at least a majorly contributing factor in why the LINUX documentation is so screwed up, out of sync with itself, and out of sync with the software to which it applies. If people can fiddle with individual pieces of a document in its "library" then it's not long before it's corrupted. That's a positive feature for the single-document indivisible archive approach I prefer. Once you have possession of a copy, you're at liberty to fiddle with it all you want, but not at the source. I spent the better part of a year trying to get complete documents from Sunsite and other loci when I had the urge to learn about LINUX. It seemed that EVERY PARAGRAPH was a separate file . . . what a PAIN. There I sat, 50 computers, 35 TB of storage available half a dozen available DS3's for internet traffic, and I had to type one character for every ten I downloaded, or so it seemed. There's got to be a better way. Please tell me what it is. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 5:35 PM Subject: Re: Disk Drive Documents >I'll respond to several parts of this thread at once... > >>> >will serve everyone. In this case, that means plain ASCII for the text. >>> >For the images or graphics, that's a bit trickier, but GIF format is about >>> >the widest deployed graphics format out there. > >I recommend PostScript at least as an option, since it's inside every >laser printer and many inkjets. If the system can display GIFs, it's >probably capable of displaying most modern formats. If it can't, the GIF >file likely would have to be converted to PS for printing anyway. > >>> Well, I don't, and for the reason that lowest common denominator means the >>> lowest efficiency for the most people. I want to make it easy and >>> accessible to as many people as possible. Based on statistics, that means > >It's not about 'many people' at all. You're catering to a technical >audience that is capable of making sense of the datasheets. > >>> that the only OS that really matters is . . . now say it along with me . . > >How many shares of MICROS~1 stock do you own? > >>> As far as I'm concerned, what's most important is that the documents be >>> stored as complete, separate, and single files. They should not be broken >>> up into pages or chapters or text in one part and graphics in another in the > >Why is that? If necessary, they can be put together with tar or PKZIP >(though you probably are only familiar with WinZip). If you're after >neatness, don't bother. Again, an audience that knows what to do with >datasheets can figure it out. > >>A PDF file can't change that. If you want to re-draw all the images in >>some CAD system, go ahead. But if you're just going to scan them, all you >>end up with is bitmaps, no matter what file format you eventually store >>them in. > >If it's a circuit schematic, it may be possible to design a program to >interpret the bitmap and make an object-oriented graphics file (or use an >existing one - Photoshop-like programs may have the proper filters). > >--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power >

26 years, 6 months

Disk Drive Documents

by edick＠idcomm.com

First of all, I don't know much about publication formats for documents to be published. I do know that Acrobat format is VERY convenient for the folks who publish documents. It's much more compact, of course, if the graphics are reduced in density, from 2780 or whatever DPI they use in the printing trade, but in general it's something they put out because it's relatively cheap and easy for the publisher. Of course it can be quite involved and still be cheap and easy when compared with distributing 100k physical data books, 15-40 volumes, averaging 800 pages each or some such. That's why they so happily put the PDF's on a CD and give that away instead of the 250 lbs of books. Having said that, I've scanned and reproduced, even edited quite a bit of graphic material, and, having been raised by a parent who worked in the printing industry for 40+ years, and having worked there myself a bit, I am not completely out of touch with what has to happen to create a distributable file. It's just the needs of the "right" people that elude me. I've got equipment/software to read and utilize PDF. I can view and process other types of files to lesser extent, but I guess that still makes it possible. I don't know how to search for a text string in PCL or PostScript, nor do I want to learn, since nobody seems to want to do that either. I've already got what I need, in that I own the documents, so I don't need to distribute them. I just know what a pain it is to have to fix an XYZ 320 when you don't have doc's to show you the way. For that reason I'm willing to make my materials available. I've even found a web site which will host these files in a location where they'll be exposed to many users of "old-time" machines. What's more, PDF is my preferred format mainly because I have already found a volunteer who's got the tools and will apply them to generating the documents in PDF. If someone wants to make them into another format, I suppose the TIFF's which are what many scanners put out as a raw bitmap file, can be made available for OCR or re-editing and re-layout. I'm not likely to do that myself, though. If someone has suggestions as to how the needs of Non-PDF users can be met, Now's the time, I guess . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 4:27 PM Subject: Re: Disk Drive Documents >Leaving aside some of the vitriol, Sellam, Tony and Dick have made some >valid points about document format. > >These documents and others like them are of interest mainly to people who >collect old machines; whether there are more Windows users who die every >day than there are users of computer systems desiring but inherently unable >to view PDF files is totally irrelevant -- the vast majority of those >Windows users aren't interested in these documents. On the other hand, >there are lots of people like us who use classic machines day-to-day. For >example, until recently, the machine I used most often was an Acorn >Archimedes. It certainly has graphics and comms capabilities, but it can't >view PDF. (There is now a viewer, but it's too big, too slow, and too >restricted to be useful on my Arc). Even now, I don't use Windows, and I >know many other users who don't. There are several UNIX OSs out there that >don't have PDF viewers, and a few that only run old versions of Acroread >(there was a lot of complaining about a year ago that AIX didn't have a PDF >viewer). Furthermore, I'm sure that many enthusiasts might well use the >internet, say at work, to download "stuff", that then gets copied for use >on a classic machine elsewhere. Finally, as far as machines are concerned, >not all of them can use cheap large-capacity hard drives, so size *is* an >issue. > >All of this suggests that Word documents are a complete non-starter, and >however convenient PDF is in some ways, it shouldn't be the *only* format >provided. I think we're all agreed on that? I'd also submit that >PostScript is less useful than either. There are few systems that can >handle PostScript but not PDF; all can handle ASCII+GIF; it can be a real >pain extracting individual pages from PostScript, especially the >almost-DSC-compliant PS produced by Microsloth. Even printing it can be >problematic. > >PDF is nice because it can preserve the original layout, with diagrams in >the right places etc, but for many purposes having the diagrams separate >(and viewed in a separate window) is actually a nicer way of working -- >depending on purpose and personal preference. For the latter scheme, >there's little wrong with flat ASCII text files and some GIFs. Stream TIFF >might theoretically be better suited to scanned diagrams, but isn't so well >supported as GIF. As for the size of the raster image, it can be scrolled >or scaled on any reasonable graphics system I've ever seen -- and that's >exactly what happens anyway when a scanned image is put in a PDF file and >displayed or printed. If the images are separate, anyone who wants can >print one separately, blown up to the size they want (resolution >permitting) and printed out separately to pin on the wall over the bench. > You can't do that with Acroread. > >There are plenty of document formats that don't keep everything in one >file. Why should that be a requirement? There are probably more systems >that use directories or folders than single files. Tar/zip for >distribution is fine for these. > >As Sellam said, you'll never get a concensus about a single format that all >of the interested parties can access. I don't agree that means you should >use only the lowest common denominator; I think it means you should provide >two (or more) formats. I'll download the PDF if it's available[1], but >I'll surely download the ASCII too. Of course, I'm assuming that one is >more-or-less as easy to produce as the other, if you have the originals. > >[1] unless I discover that the "text" within it isn't OCRed or typed, but >scanned bitmaps, in which case I'll likely throw it away again. > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York

26 years, 6 months

Disk Drive Documents

by edick＠idcomm.com

please look at the comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 7:26 PM Subject: Re: Disk Drive Documents >On Mon, 7 Jun 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >>I spent the better part of a year trying to get complete documents from >>Sunsite and other loci when I had the urge to learn about LINUX. It seemed >>that EVERY PARAGRAPH was a separate file . . . what a PAIN. There I sat, >>50 computers, 35 TB of storage available half a dozen available DS3's for >>internet traffic, and I had to type one character for every ten I >>downloaded, or so it seemed. >> >>There's got to be a better way. Please tell me what it is. > >Well, you could get a Linux CD or book, which will have all of these for >you. However, I'm not sure which documents you're referring to. I've had >no related problems. There is also another issue, and that is that from >what I've found, the docs are useless 'learning about Linux'. They are >useful if you need command syntax, or if there is some specific thing that >you need to do and documentation exists for it. I found a book called >'UNIX Shell Programming' to be an invaluable resource. I do dislike Linux >books because they are usually either printed versions of the e-docs, or >very superficial. Check your library for a book on UNIX. I did that, and as you say, they're generally just reductions to CD of the published e-docs, except that they're permanently mixed together out of logical or chronological sequence, so you can't track progress of a given feature set. I wasn't after info on UNIX, I was after info on LINUX. However that's not what THIS thread is about. >This, however, has little to do with the disk drive documentation. Nobody >will try to modify it, and since it will be tech manuals, I hardly think >that there will be a dilemma as to which file to download. Your all-in-one >approach does have merits, but as people have said, it's clumsy. A better >choice would be to either tar/zip the files together or simply put all >related files into one directory, so that when one needs to get a manual, >one just does 'get *' at the FTP prompt. I'm not sure clumsy is what it is, but it's inherently solvable if not elegant. If I can break out parts of the document into PCL, then I can do that into POSTSCRIPT as well, and so can you. If the guy down the hall can't, he can ask for help. >--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power >

26 years, 6 months

Disk Drive Documents

by edick＠idcomm.com

There is one other aspect to consider in making a public archive of these documents, and that is that this is not my information, nor is it public domain. So far, no one has mentioned that there is likely still a copyright on the documents. I suppose permission will have to be obtained from the copyright owner. It's likely, since most of these companies, e.g. Seagate, Siemens, Mitsubishi, Xerox (bought Shugart Associates. (?)) are big users of PDF format for some of the reasons previously stated, probably have a preference for PDF. It's too soon to speculate on what these companies will do. Please see my commments embedded below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, June 06, 1999 9:27 PM Subject: Re: Disk Drive Documents >On Sun, 6 Jun 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> In any case, I'll agree that each of us will have an approach to "using" our >> computer which may not suit someone else, and those who have a preferred >> format for openly presented technical data should make their preferences >> known. The people who actually prepare the data and present it for use will >> probably have the final say, though and there's no guarantee that I will >> have any more to say in the final choice than you. > >Well, I definitely agree with Tony on this. On which point, Sam? >The fact is you're never going to get consensus amongst everyone on what >format the file should be in. So in this case, if the intent is to create >a public archive, you must go with the least common denominator, which >will serve everyone. In this case, that means plain ASCII for the text. >For the images or graphics, that's a bit trickier, but GIF format is about >the widest deployed graphics format out there. Well, I don't, and for the reason that lowest common denominator means the lowest efficiency for the most people. I want to make it easy and accessible to as many people as possible. Based on statistics, that means that the only OS that really matters is . . . now say it along with me . . . I don't anticipate getting complete agreement from everyone. What has to be considered is (1) What do the owners of the data have to say? (2) What are the people willing to do the work willing to do? (3) Where are these documents to be stored and presented to the public and how much space will they allow for this purpose? (4) What will satisfy the needs and preferences of MOST of the people having access to the documents? The weight assigned to the answers will probably be in about this order as well. As far as I'm concerned, what's most important is that the documents be stored as complete, separate, and single files. They should not be broken up into pages or chapters or text in one part and graphics in another in the stupid, Stupid, STUPID way much of the LINUX documentation is published. Further, while GIF format is probably OK for your vacation pictures or the latest centerfold, I don't find it particularly advantageous for presenting line-art drawings because common viewers don't have a standard presentation format for them. They come in a size matched to some raster image and if your display matches it, great, else too bad. Again I prefer the PDF, not only because it is what most people can get and use for free, but because it is a single format useable in common for both text and graphics. >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 05/25/99] >

26 years, 6 months

More on GRiDs

by ds_spenc＠alcor.concordia.ca

Hi, I'm using my Compass again. :) I have the GRiD 1520 (I think that's the model) disassembled on the kitchen table beside me. It does, I repeat, it *does* have a hard drive in it. Either it is very, very quiet, or it wasn't spinning up before. Could be why it didn't pass the "test". I've located the battery, too. Looks to be non-rechargable, and it's soldered to the motherboard. Looks like a pink capacitor. TL-5101. Anyone know the specs on this? The hard drive is from JVC. I didn't even know that JVC made hard drives. "Manufactured by Victor Company of Japan, Limited". It's labeled "20 MEG HD" on the outside of the metal case. It's a model JD3824G00-2. There is one error listed, on cylinder 155, head 0, sector 4. The hard drive is a very slim 3.5" unit, with a 26-pin connector going into it. Those 26 pins _include_ the power. What kind of drive is this? The floppy drive definitely works. I plugged it into my Amiga 1200 and viewed some JPEGs from it. The little modem board (?) is from USRobotics. The AC adapter actually slides out of the case. It has battery terminals on its inside end. Obviously the battery pack must fit into the same space when the machine is on the move. There's some other kind of connector on the end of the AC adapter, too, but I don't know what that's for. Also, why is there an external 16VDC connector if the battery slides into the case? The CPU is a HARRIS (says INTEL lower down) CG80C286-10. There are four monstrous square FARADAY chips near the CPU, 21 pins to a side. FE3000A/M79V004, FE3030/M73HB002, FE3010/M92H801, FE3020/M73HB001. There's a 40-pin ceramic DIP labeled "256K RAM". Could be video RAM, I suppose, but it's far away from the video board and plasma display connecions. There's a socket next to it, of the same physical size. There are four banks of RAM on little boards, kind of like SIMMs but not. The board edges seem to be soldered to the motherboard. There are four empty spaces for more of these things. 30 pins each. Or is that what 30-pin SIMMs are supposed to look like? :) Some chips have GRiD labels. The chip which I presume to be the main video chip is a square YAMAHA beast, 21 pins per side, with labels "7822851/V6366B-J/6102B-J". Possibly most importantly, there are modifications inside. On the motherboard, at position U83, there is a piggybacked 20-pin chip, with some cut pins and wire leading to the chip below it (only one) and to U72 and U73. There's another piggybacked 14-pin chip at U26, and a couple of other patches here and there. I thought a machine beaing the GRiD name would be beyond these kinds of patches. :) Anyway, I ended up doing the full disassembly by accident. I was trying to figure out how to open the case, and the only obvious screws were the ones under the carrying handle. I unscrewed two of those and "jingle jingle jingle" some metal pieces fell from their moorings and started drifting around inside. Oh joy. Turns out they were under the battery compartment. Turns out I needed to disassemble EVERYTHING to get under there and put the pieces back in place. Turns out they were the springs that hold the handle in one of two positions. Now I hope I can get the darn thing together again. I didn't take notes, and there are tons of screws all over the place. -- Doug Spence ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/

26 years, 6 months

Disk Drive Documents

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 7, 18:30, Max Eskin wrote: > I recommend PostScript at least as an option, since it's inside every > laser printer and many inkjets. obNitPick: My laserprinter doesn't have PostScript, only PCL. Lots of lasers don't, and not many inkjets, at least in my experience. I drive my laserjet from a PostScript raster engine (not Ghostscript) running on one of my unix machines. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 6 months

HP 9000/840S is alive (sorta)

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

For anyone that cares... This weekend I fired up my new (old) HP 9000/840S minicomputer. The 840S is a fairly large minicomputer circa 1987. This particular unit is fully loaded with 24MB of RAM (I think 12MB was standard), 36 serial ports, 4 HPIB interface cards, a SCSI card, and a LAN interface. The system is 3 1/2' tall, 2 1/2' wide, and 3' deep. I weighs between 350 and 400 pounds. The CPU has an emormous transformer in the base with a number of primary windings. This allows it to be configured for a number of different line voltages including: 110, 120, 220, 240, and 208. Fortunately, there is a wiring diagram printed inside the power distribution panel and the jumpers were all color coded. I set it up for 240 since that's what my voltmeter indicated at the outlet. I had previously removed all the cards from the CPU (there are approx 25 cards). I turned the machine on and tested each of the 3 power suplies. There is a "System Monitor" module that runs the control panel and it also provides test points for all the system voltages. When I checked them, they were all pretty close to the voltages indicated on panel. I reinstalled all the cards and connected a terminal to the console port. Flipped the breaker and the machine came alive! The CPU did it's self test and everything seemed to work just fine. After a few moments, it indicated a BOOT error as would be expected without a boot device attached. The system came with a pair of HP 7937 hard drives mounted in rolling cabinet. The drives are approx 14 tall, 14" wide, and 30" deep. They weigh between 80 and 100 pounds each and have a capacity of approx 500MB. A cursory inspection of the drives found that the heads had not been locked in the "ship" position. I didn't know what kinda treatment they had received so, I just crossed my fingers and fired them up. There was a loud squeel from the drives as they spooled up. That was obviously a bad sign :-( I spent the entire afternoon Saturday and most of the morning on Sunday working on the HDs. After removing them from the cabinet and disassembling them on the kitchen table, I discovered what was making the horrific noises. The motor, that spins the fan, also spins the HD through a belt drive. When the motor started up, some of the old insulation got caught in the belt and gummed it up pretty good. That particular foam insulation turns to a sticky, gooey, black mess when it ages and the S*** was all over the place. After several hours, up to my elbows in Acetone, I managed to get everything cleaned up and completely reassembled the units (OH my aching back). Now I was ready to try it again. I applied to power to the first HD and it spun up without the horrible noises it made previously. The only problem was the LEDS, on the front panel, indicated a "Servo" ERROR. I cycled the power on the unit several times (allowing it to spin down) and about 30% of the time I could get a green LED (disk OK). I applied power to the second HD and got similar results although it failed the POST more often. So, I attached the first HD to the CPU and was ready to go. I had to cycle the HD several times to get a green indication and then I turned on the CPU. After several moments, it went through the boot sequence... Yipee!. During the BOOT, FSCK detected numerous faults in the HD and several of the scripts in the ETC/RC directory could not execute. Obviously, the HDs were having difficulties. After about 15 minutes, I finally got an "(un)welcome" screen and login prompt. It said "Property of the US government... blah, blah, USC code XXX... blah, blah, you're going to jail". Since I didn't know the ROOT password, I was at a dead end but, at least it did boot! I rebooted the system and tried to restart in single user mode hoping, I could find a way in to the system. Alas, I cannot get the system to boot again. I think FSCK probably tried to fix the HD, during the previous boot, and now it doesn't work at all :-( I had intended to register the system with HP and get the OS upgrade anyway. Thankfully, they're offering HPUX 10.2 for free so, it won't cost me anything for the software. With any luck, I'll be able to reformat the HDs and clear up the problems they were having. I'll let y'all know what happens. See Ya, Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 6 months

Disk Drive Documents

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Linux != X. In other words there are text-based linux boxes around (ones <which plain can't display a graphical image, but which could print it). <Care to suggest a viewer for that system. Ghostscript, I used it to push PDF, PS, EPS to ly LQ570 and it's runable on DOS, WIN31, W9X and all flavors of unix. <What about Xenix on a PC/AT or on a Tandy 6000. Or PNX (on any model <PERQ). Or Uniplus+ on a Plessey Mantra. Or Zeus on a Zilog S8000. Ghostscript source... <All the world is _NOT A PC_... True and most of it has a hard time with FTP/LYNX/Pine and an IP stack. Get it posted, convert to other formats as needed. Allison

26 years, 6 months

Disk Drive Documents

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

Leaving aside some of the vitriol, Sellam, Tony and Dick have made some valid points about document format. These documents and others like them are of interest mainly to people who collect old machines; whether there are more Windows users who die every day than there are users of computer systems desiring but inherently unable to view PDF files is totally irrelevant -- the vast majority of those Windows users aren't interested in these documents. On the other hand, there are lots of people like us who use classic machines day-to-day. For example, until recently, the machine I used most often was an Acorn Archimedes. It certainly has graphics and comms capabilities, but it can't view PDF. (There is now a viewer, but it's too big, too slow, and too restricted to be useful on my Arc). Even now, I don't use Windows, and I know many other users who don't. There are several UNIX OSs out there that don't have PDF viewers, and a few that only run old versions of Acroread (there was a lot of complaining about a year ago that AIX didn't have a PDF viewer). Furthermore, I'm sure that many enthusiasts might well use the internet, say at work, to download "stuff", that then gets copied for use on a classic machine elsewhere. Finally, as far as machines are concerned, not all of them can use cheap large-capacity hard drives, so size *is* an issue. All of this suggests that Word documents are a complete non-starter, and however convenient PDF is in some ways, it shouldn't be the *only* format provided. I think we're all agreed on that? I'd also submit that PostScript is less useful than either. There are few systems that can handle PostScript but not PDF; all can handle ASCII+GIF; it can be a real pain extracting individual pages from PostScript, especially the almost-DSC-compliant PS produced by Microsloth. Even printing it can be problematic. PDF is nice because it can preserve the original layout, with diagrams in the right places etc, but for many purposes having the diagrams separate (and viewed in a separate window) is actually a nicer way of working -- depending on purpose and personal preference. For the latter scheme, there's little wrong with flat ASCII text files and some GIFs. Stream TIFF might theoretically be better suited to scanned diagrams, but isn't so well supported as GIF. As for the size of the raster image, it can be scrolled or scaled on any reasonable graphics system I've ever seen -- and that's exactly what happens anyway when a scanned image is put in a PDF file and displayed or printed. If the images are separate, anyone who wants can print one separately, blown up to the size they want (resolution permitting) and printed out separately to pin on the wall over the bench. You can't do that with Acroread. There are plenty of document formats that don't keep everything in one file. Why should that be a requirement? There are probably more systems that use directories or folders than single files. Tar/zip for distribution is fine for these. As Sellam said, you'll never get a concensus about a single format that all of the interested parties can access. I don't agree that means you should use only the lowest common denominator; I think it means you should provide two (or more) formats. I'll download the PDF if it's available[1], but I'll surely download the ASCII too. Of course, I'm assuming that one is more-or-less as easy to produce as the other, if you have the originals. [1] unless I discover that the "text" within it isn't OCRed or typed, but scanned bitmaps, in which case I'll likely throw it away again. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 6 months

Compass on web page

by ds_spenc＠alcor.concordia.ca

Hey! I just put some Compass pics and info on my web page. A bit of a rush job this afternoon, because I just got the message telling me of the Impending Death of my Account. :/ Anyway, thunder storms rolling in, so I'd better log out. I hope the page looks OK. Time to sign up with a commercial provider. <s> -- Doug Spence ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/

26 years, 6 months

GRiDCASE update, now laptop hard drives

by roblwill＠usaor.net

On JVC drives, the problem wasn't the heads sticking to the media, but the spindle bearings themselves sticking. My Zenith SupersPORT has the same problem (JVC drive) if it's not turned on for more than a week. ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1> -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Montag, 7. Juni 1999 06:09 Subject: Re: GRiDCASE update, now laptop hard drives > >> > > What is this supposed to accomplish? >> > >> > The HD for mysterious reasons works again. The person I got the laptop >> > from told me about it. > >The likely problem is stiction, heads stick to drive media and it will not >spin causing a boot error. Dropping it is a destructive practice at best. >next time try rotating it very sharply while sitting on the desk to help >spin the media. > >Allison > > >

26 years, 6 months

kemit for rt11

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 7, 15:44, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Subject: kemit for rt11 > Hi all, > where can I find the newest version ? > P.S. RSX would be nice too ;-)) You'll find both at http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html or better still by anonymous FTP to kermit.columbia.edu, in the directory 'kermit/b'. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 6 months

OS/2 Off Topic

by foxvideo＠wincom.net

In with several boxes of old computer bits I frecently was given I found a cd-rom titled OS/2 for Windows, complimentary copy. Using a 486-66 with a cd-rom drive recognized by both Dos and Windows 95, I followed the instructions and created two floppies, "Install and OS/2 disk 1." Using these disks and following instructions I get to a point where it says "insert CD-Rom disk", however by this time OS/2 has taken over to the extent that the CD-Rom drive is no longer recognized, and everything grinds to a halt. Does anyone have any suggestions? (Polite) Maybe this is why OS/2 didn't really take off. Regards Charlie Fox PS-- Some of the other junk was over ten years old, particularly the hard drives. Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo(a)wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo

26 years, 6 months

kemit for rt11

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>where can I find the newest version ? Where you can find all the versions: ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/ Specifically, you want to look in the /kermit/b/ directory and get all the files beginning with krt. >P.S. RSX would be nice too ;-)) Same place, but get the files starting with k11. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

kemit for rt11

by emu＠ecubics.com

Hi all, where can I find the newest version ? thanks, emanuel P.S. RSX would be nice too ;-))

26 years, 6 months

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